WEBVTT - Corporate Personhood? What About Ecosystem Personhood 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:04.600 In our last narrative season, La Luja Longla, about the 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:08.520 decades long fight over oil pollution in the Ecuadorian Amazon, 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.320 I mentioned something unique about Ecuador's constitution. It includes a 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:26.880 provision for the rights of nature. Ecuador rewrote its constitution 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.680 in two thousand and eight to include a chapter called 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:34.440 Rights for Nature. Other countries have toyed with this idea 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.440 since then, and it freaks a lot of people out, 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:44.040 especially people running large multinational corporations, mainly because it challenges 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.720 one of the core tenets of capitalism, private property. Rather 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:54.160 than treating nature as property under the law, writes for 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.560 nature articles acknowledge that nature, in all of its life forms, 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:04.160 has the right to exist, persist, maintain, and regenerate, and 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:08.160 that we the people have the legal authority to enforce 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:13.000 those rights on behalf of ecosystems. Here's Natalie Green with 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.319 the Global Alliance for Rights of Nature explaining how the 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.360 concept works in Ecuador. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:19.320 Well. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.760 Ecuador in two thousand and eight rewrote its constitution and 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.080 it was passed by the majority of Equilorians. And what 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.360 we decided is that we don't want to follow a 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.480 model development, like a socialism model or a capitalist model, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.800 because all those model were proven to be wrong, and 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.400 we decided to recognize something that is that we are 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.279 going to fight for, and we're going to be working 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.520 for a model basic will being. What's what's establishing the 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.720 constitution is a model basic will bean And what will 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.800 being or sumacausai or wembibat in Spanish, will being is 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.720 this notion of believing in harmony with nature. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:58.160 And here is a handy explainer from the Community Environmental 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.320 Legal Defense Fund, which has been leading a lot of 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.919 the fights for rights of nature in the US. 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.280 Under the current system of law, nature is considered to 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.560 be property. When something is considered property, that often gives 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.040 the property owner the right to damage it. Therefore, those 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.000 who own these natural communities are largely allowed to use 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.600 them however they wish, even if that includes destroying it. 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.680 Rights of nature is honoring and recognizing that nature has 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:30.600 the right to exist, flourish, and thrive. Laws recognizing the 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.400 rights of nature change the status of these ecosystems to 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.040 being recognized as rights bearing entities. 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:42.440 In late twenty twenty, the Ecuadorian Constitutional Court heard a 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.639 rights of nature case for the first time. It's called 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.840 the Lessdros case and here's what it's about in broad strokes. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.000 With the country's oil revenue on the decline, in twenty seventeen, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:00.000 the Ecuadorian government opened up public lands for mining concessions, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.080 some six million acres, including at least sixty eight percent 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.880 of Los Ceedros, a protected cloud forest. The idea was 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.000 that those mining profits would make up for lost oil 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:18.600 revenue the long shadow of oil colonialism. But because there 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.600 was that rights of nature provision in the constitution, citizen 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.400 groups were able to sue the government for this move. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.680 They called it unconstitutional, and a couple of the justices 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.160 on that court wrote about it ahead of time, seeing 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.360 how important the forest was to protect and how eager 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.640 they were to think through the application of rights of nature. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.280 Their decision hasn't come down yet, but when it does, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.280 it's going to have a major impact all over the world. Meanwhile, 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.000 communities in the US have started to embrace this idea too, 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:57.160 and no surprise, their biggest opponents are oil and gas companies. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:02.800 There's a concerted effort underfoots supported by the American Petroleum Institute, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.440 to pass laws that would preempt rights of nature laws 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.920 from ever being passed. I'm joined today by Joshua Boaz 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.400 Probannik and Melissa Troutman. They're the co founders of the 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.679 great independent journalism outlet, Public Herald. They've done a lot 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.839 of the work on fracking and the impacts of that 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.239 industry on Pennsylvania and Ohio and on water in general. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.000 They made a documentary about rights of nature called Invisible Hand. 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.240 It takes a look at the push for rights of 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:36.680 nature laws in the US, particularly in two spots in 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.520 Ohio and Pennsylvania. The film came out in twenty twenty. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:42.240 Here's a little sampling of it. 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.080 What do you say to your critics that say this 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.280 is absolutely bad ship and crazy absurd? 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:49.599 Cai goa. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:55.320 We recognize a right that this watershed has had that's 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.840 long been ignored, its right to thrive. 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.359 To flourish, an injection will problem. 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.280 We have a democracy problem. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.320 We have shifted our government to one that's now become 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:10.320 totally corporate control. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.760 If a corporation has the same constitutional rights as an individual, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.080 why couldn't an ecosystem. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.919 Melissa and josh talked about how they came to follow 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.400 the rights of nature, how they've seen it play out 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.880 on the ground in Pennsylvania and Ohio and why the 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:35.480 idea has an unlikely opponent big environmental groups. That conversation 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.880 coming up right after this quick break. I'm Amy Westervelt 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:41.279 and this is drilled. 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.120 I get Google alerts for rights of nature in my 0:05:54.200 --> 0:06:00.840 inbox every day, and it's there's constantly new news about 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.960 rights of nature all over the globe, particularly in the 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:10.600 United States. What's happening right now is there's a growing 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:15.360 movement to establish rights of nature in Florida to protect 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.719 the fragile ecosystems down there, particularly from the effects of 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:26.839 climate change. Interesting, and there's also some news just that 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.280 I just read today that there's a Convention on Biological 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:35.800 Diversity and that's an international environmental treaty and they just 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:40.600 convened in Colorado a couple of days ago and signed 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:45.400 the first international environmental Treaty to advance the rights of nature. Wow. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:51.599 Is a milestone for the global environmental movement, and that 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.680 will be voted on at their next meeting in China. 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:04.640 So there's a lot more happening worldwide. The big case, 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.480 you know, the big spotlight that everybody in the movements 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:14.240 watching right now is Ecuador, right because in Ecuador was 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.200 the first country to establish rights of nature in its 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.680 national constitution back in two thousand and eight, and for 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.600 about ten years after that, there were a couple of 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:33.200 cases that went before the Constitutional Court in Ecuador, but 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:40.240 those the judges at the time didn't seem to prioritize 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.040 rights of nature, so it didn't really nothing much happened there. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:49.240 But as of twenty nineteen, there's a new panel of 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:56.840 judges on the Constitutional Court in Ecuador, and this particular 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:02.120 court has prioritized rights of major specifically, and they have 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:09.440 selected a few cases to concentrate on so that the 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.520 parameters of rights of nature, how it is applied in 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.720 practical ways, the scope of the law is worked out. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:23.480 And one of those cases before the Constitutional Constitutional Court 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:28.320 of Ecuador is a case to protect Los Adro's Forest 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:35.600 Reserve from mining. It's a very, very ecologically diverse forest 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:42.520 that will be gone if concessions for mining put forth 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.959 by the Ecuadorian government will go through. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.480 Well, I think we should speak, you know, to some 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.000 of the updates in the film too. You have the 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.199 Lake Erie Bill of Rights, which is one of the 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.199 stories that's covered in the film. That's an international waters case. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:04.040 So you do have these conflicting Lake Erie resolutions about 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:05.760 you know, how much water is going to be taken 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.040 out of the lake for instance. Yeah, so, I mean 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:14.000 you're dealing with, you know, basically treaty type situations where 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:15.880 you're trying to come to an agreement between the two 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:23.959 the two you know, international borders. But those those confrontations 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.520 and and and that kind of court case in negotiation 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.160 seems to be something that's going to happen here in 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.200 the future. There's certainly a lot of discussion about you know, 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.520 toxic trespass, the idea of Canada or somebody else introducing 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.719 pollution from one country into another and holding them accountable. 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.320 But I think that you know, in the cases with 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:52.400 Lake Erie, you know, rather than the regulatory agency being 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:57.280 the people who take over that decision making process about 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.600 what's going on with the lake and its health, the 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.440 local community is able to gain the kind of power 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.920 and authority that they need through rights of nature, you know, 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.360 if Toledo is able to make that sacro saying in 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.840 the city. Yeah, so that that way they're dealing with 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.000 you know, Canada or somebody else across the table when 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.640 it comes to negotiations about Lake Erie and they're doing 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.679 it on behalf of Lake Erie, Yeah, rather than behalf 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:31.040 of these regulations who you know, have basically polluted that 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:36.720 lake to the point where it's unswimmable, undrinkable, you know, 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.600 is killing a massive number of. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.520 Species just due to the way. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.320 Permits have been handed out on that west side of 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:51.840 the of the Lake Erie basin. And just recently, you know, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.439 the city is negotiating whether or not to pay out 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:01.880 two hundred thousand dollars in attorney costs and basically for 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.160 this this you know bill that they passed that they 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:08.679 had to argue in front of the court and the 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.760 you know, the prosecutions asking for payment of two hundred 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.760 thousand dollars. So they're negotiating whether or not to payments 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.600 pay that. So if you want to take action, you 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:21.200 can either help you know, Taledoans for Safe Water raise 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.680 funds to you know, contribute to that fight over there, 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.680 or you can contact Toledo directly and tell them not 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:33.280 to participate in this you know, egregious request to make 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.760 the city pay this two hundred thousand dollars for a 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.079 democratically elected bill. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.520 I'm curious about sort of you know what your your 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:47.600 hopes are for this documentary in terms of raising awareness 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.199 or where it. 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:50.160 Might kind of. 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:57.440 I don't know, just help to take the story well. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.000 Joshua and I since co found Public Herald in twenty eleven, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:11.200 we've come into this work through water. Our initial projects 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:17.320 were investigations of water contamination, the cover up of water 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:24.520 contamination related to fracking development in protected watersheds in Pennsylvania. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.080 And it was over the past ten years that we've discovered, 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.360 I mean, it didn't take ten years, but that we've 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:40.200 discovered that the system of law that is in place 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:45.800 of environmental law, that is supposed to protect things like 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:50.040 our water, which is essential for life, of course, are 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.360 not are They fail And an examination of why they 0:12:54.400 --> 0:13:01.520 fail brought us to create this documentary Invisible Hand, And 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.160 with this film, I see it as just the beginning 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:14.120 of continued coverage of how people confront the systemic fundamental 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:20.520 flaws in our legal system and in our society which 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.520 is built on you know, these same legal foundations, but 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.000 also our value system. You know, as we struggle with 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:34.280 climate change, with racism, with ecoside, I mean, all of 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.160 these problems stem from the same fundamental flaw for me, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:44.280 which is a disconnection from the laws of nature, which 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:51.560 govern the universe and keep everything in balance. I think 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.880 that the film is just the beginning of covering this, 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.080 and it really it's the film is about the movement 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:03.720 that itself is in its infancy in terms of the 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.920 way that movements go. So my hope is that this 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:14.000 film introduces the concept to a level of detail to 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.000 people who may have never heard of it or who 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.760 just heard it in passing, and shows how communities actually 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:27.600 implement this and how brave and resilient they are in 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.120 this fight, because it's a really really hard one. I mean, 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.040 we're talking about shifting a paradigm which is not just 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.880 our legal system but also also our civilization and the. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:40.520 Way we live. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.680 That is a huge, huge deal. But as for as 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:52.080 big is that as the struggle is, it's also very 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:57.040 very simple. Yeah, because the laws of nature are simple. 0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.440 I'm glad that you used all the clips of like 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.600 the people's saying this is so silly, This is ridiculous, 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.040 in contrast with like the woman explaining what it actually does. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.080 Because people do they talk about it as like, oh, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.400 what do you want a treat to be? In negotiating 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.479 these treaties you know, and no, we're talking about community 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:19.280 control over the resources that the community depends on, which 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:21.920 they don't have otherwise. 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.560 Truly, truly they don't have. And Grant is a perfect, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.680 you know example of that, and so is Toledo and 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.480 then some of the other people that we, yeah, included 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:32.160 in the film, And yeah, you're right, I mean, it 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.800 was really nice to hear from these these antagonists and 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.280 what they have to say about it, because you know, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.160 when you listen to those arguments about basically why life 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.960 shouldn't have rights, they sound pretty obscene and they get 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.280 to kind of the core of the problems with capitalism 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.400 and with you know, libertarianism or other things like that, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:16:01.640 which have created this enormously selfish situation that relies on 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:07.160 a completely utopian fantasy that we will have unlimited resources 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:08.360 provided by the earth forever. 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.520 I wonder if there are thoughts that you have on 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.840 the media side of this coin and sort of how 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.680 these stories do or don't get amplified in the in 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:23.240 the broader media sphere. And oh and like, yeah, I'm 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:24.760 sure you have many thoughts on that. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:29.480 Yeah, documentary on that it was because it was so 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.840 it was so bad, It was so bad. We were 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.280 all right, Melissa and I have nothing, you know, but 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.480 the best intentions when it comes to sharing a story. 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.960 You know, Public Carol is not some kind of profit 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.400 machine wherever. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.440 We're worried about our bottom line. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.520 Our goal is to you know, to tell the story 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.880 the way it is, rather than allow these propaganda machines 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.800 to keep operating and basically either diffuse stories or just 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.680 either lie and tell fall story. So we I remember 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.560 we were talking about this and we had a documentary 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.200 that we thought of called Journation, which was the mix 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:13.000 between journalism and public relations, because we have so much 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.040 of the journalism that we expected to work with across 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:22.560 the state had been infiltrated by this public relations fallacy 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:27.160 of balanced journalism that they were just they were shooting 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.159 themselves in the foot every time they try to publish 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.320 a story. You know, we would have we would send 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.240 them a story like say, for instance, we sent a 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:38.359 newspaper story that was that first complaint story that we 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.359 did in twenty fourteen, which was on the Daily Show. 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.920 And it's this like really grainy. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.200 You know, look at how a complaint happens from day 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.439 one to like day forty five, when the investigation is 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.760 you know, concluded, and you're reading the story and it's 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.399 happening in real time. You know, as you're reading it, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.679 you know, you're on day thirty one and with the 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.080 complaint and the readers on day thirty one, you're reading 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.199 it like as it's happening. So we're including all the 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.480 sources and everything, and we give this to another newspaper 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.560 to publish a print version of it locally, and they 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.639 weren't able to do it because they weren't able to 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.560 balance the story by calling the state and the industry 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:25.320 pr groups to provide a positive spin on all of 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.720 this negative shit that was. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.840 Happening on people being without water for months of the time. Yeah, 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.199 I was like, right, because there's something positive in there 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:32.720 about that. 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.160 You are they're saying, you know, I'm like, you guys 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:37.760 are editorializing these stories. 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:38.680 You understand that, right. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.800 You think you're creating a balance, but you're not actually 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.679 including what's happening with just the primary sources and just 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:50.159 the people involved. You're trying to paint this reality with 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.879 these outsiders and bringing their voices in to shroud the 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:59.200 seriousness of what these people are facing and the fact 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.159 that the state doesn't want to comment, Like, that's what 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.000 the state doesn't want to do. So that's what you publish, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.919 you don't you know that you can't publish the story 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.399 until you get a comment. You've got all the state's 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.960 emails and everything else. So this happened everywhere. This happened 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.199 with our relationships with NPR. You know, we tried to 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.120 do some stories with NPR and and that just went 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.760 totally south and and they got stuff way wrong. Yeahs, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:32.040 and we we we published this giant report about state 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:37.560 misconduct with layers of evidence just thrown throughout the whole 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.720 thing about specific cases where the this. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:43.880 Is very well placed. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:53.400 Looking atamination and uh so we're like, you know, hey, 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:55.560 you guys, we we just worked on this for three years. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.399 We really want you to cover this story about the 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.600 state misconduct and the attorney gen generals investigating it. Like, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.800 we've talked to the attorney general. They're out in the field, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.280 they're talking to people. They're like, well, we can't write 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.480 a story until the attorney general tells us that they're 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:10.119 investigating it. 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.680 I'm like, it's the attorney general. 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.840 They're gonna yeah, they don't do that, guys. 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:22.200 They're investigating dipshits go up there published. 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:29.560 That's been like the constant wall of trying to to 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.879 take these stories that are so important and that our 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.880 people are suffering with and get them into the mainstream media. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.879 And the mainstream media just has this amazing wall that 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.960 they don't let anything through, which it's it's it's not 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:46.800 such a big deal for us because we haven't a 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.119 huge readership, right so it's not like, you know, we 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.600 haven't fallen short on that side of it. We utilize 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.520 things like Google Ads, we utilize things like social media, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.120 you know, and all the different advertising platforms in public. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.200 Film is really good distribution and in the film the. 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.560 Films themselves have really built our audience. But the issue 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.879 with not getting into mainstream is that we're not getting 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.520 to their audience. And these these are people who need 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.240 to be informed about what's actually going on. You know, 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.840 we have an election coming up and people are voting, 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.639 and and if you don't know the truth about everything, 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.480 if you have this picture in your mind of what's 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.879 happening with fracking, for instance, in Pennsylvania, which is the 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:36.600 second largest producer of natural gas in the country, if 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.040 you do if you have this picture of things as 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.080 if they're balanced, which is what the mainstream media tends 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:48.840 to report, including people like MPR. Then people think things 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:52.600 are okay, and that is very very much not the case. 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:54.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:59.320 We we covered this in a drilled season of like 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:04.879 exactly how the whole false equivalence thing was created mostly 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:10.159 by oil and gas companies. Like the woman who's in 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:11.560 charge of the Corporation for. 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:16.280 Public Broadcasting right now is you know, was one of 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.840 the like key architects of that and of climate denial, 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.040 and in fact like came up with the fucking term 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:23.919 clean coal. 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.160 So like, god, yeah, I'm not surprised that NPR does 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:28.840 a bad job. 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.080 Wow, I'm curious what you're actually seeing on the ground 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:37.919 with people in Pennsylvania and you know how you know, 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:39.960 tracking regulation plays there. 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:42.800 I have a I have my own version of that 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:43.359 most of you. 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.440 I'll share, you share your share living on the front. 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:57.159 So I've been you know, I went to college and 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.800 studied comprehensive planning and zoning, and I saw a lot 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.879 of that work happening in Pennsylvania with regards to controlling 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.560 fracking and keeping it in. 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.200 Specific zones in the community. 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.680 And you know, working with food and water watch to 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.359 create a zoning plan that'll protect your community from oil 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.320 and gas and these kinds of things. And here you 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.720 have Grant right, and Grant is doing the exact opposite. 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.560 Grant is saying for you to tell me that I 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:27.160 have to zone things in my area and then make 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.160 sure that there is a place for waste in our community. 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:33.240 Make sure there's a zone for waste in our community. 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.960 That's fucking unconstitutional, and we're not going to do that. 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.040 We're going to pass home rule. And this home rule 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:40.720 will have a bill. 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:42.800 Of rights, which says what our laws are and what 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:45.639 you must follow when you're in our community. It will 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:51.480 not be these unconstitutional mandates that we have to accept 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:54.160 waste or we have to accept fracking in our community. 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.320 And that's something that Pennsylvania allows. 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.520 Now, the problem is with banning fracking in pennsylvani And 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.600 why you don't see Grant in one hundred other communities 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:05.040 like you did in a place like New York. 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.040 Is the entire green movement in Pennsylvania. 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.360 Every single organization I've ever talked to about this, No 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:16.480 one is focusing on passing home rule bands inside of communities, 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.720 except for Cell Deaf Cell DEEV is the only one 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.920 I know who's like created a platform for communities that 0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:27.080 actually ban fracking or ban infrastructure, or ban landfills or 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:30.960 ban anything, you know, through something like home rule, because 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:33.640 they've said, this is the this is the most powerful 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:35.439 part of the law, and this is where we're going 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:37.080 to help you pass if you want to pass. And 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:38.480 they're not going to push any of that out you. 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:40.680 They're just like suggesting, you know what it is that 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:47.080 they know. However, the environmental organizations have completely lost track 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:49.639 of how to deal with this with this problem, and 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.600 they are entirely invested in zoning, an ordnance plan plans, 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:59.600 entirely invested. So they're taking communities who are in dire 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:01.840 straight who want to ban fracking so it doesn't happen 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.159 next to the school, or they want to banfracking and 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.080 they don't want these wells, or they don't want injection 0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:09.400 wells like plump Township, right, And they're taking these communities 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:11.680 and they're saying, well, we'll help you build these really 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.240 strong zoning and ordance laws and that'll make everything okay. 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:17.280 And I don't have an example of where that's okay. 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.439 All I ever see with Melissa and I filming this stuff, 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.959 and we have been to I cannot tell you how 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:25.760 many of these boring ass zoning meetings. 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:29.280 It's a hearing and we're there for four hours. Yeah, 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:32.320 the whole damn thing, watching every attorney talk. 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:35.359 I mean so many times did we do this for 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:40.359 this film to try and find one positive piece to 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:42.240 stick in there about zoning and ordance. 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:44.879 We couldn't get a shred of it. It was just 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.080 a total total failure. 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:52.160