1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: In our last narrative season, La Luja Longla, about the 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: decades long fight over oil pollution in the Ecuadorian Amazon, 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: I mentioned something unique about Ecuador's constitution. It includes a 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: provision for the rights of nature. Ecuador rewrote its constitution 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight to include a chapter called 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: Rights for Nature. Other countries have toyed with this idea 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: since then, and it freaks a lot of people out, 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: especially people running large multinational corporations, mainly because it challenges 9 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: one of the core tenets of capitalism, private property. Rather 10 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: than treating nature as property under the law, writes for 11 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: nature articles acknowledge that nature, in all of its life forms, 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: has the right to exist, persist, maintain, and regenerate, and 13 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: that we the people have the legal authority to enforce 14 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: those rights on behalf of ecosystems. Here's Natalie Green with 15 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: the Global Alliance for Rights of Nature explaining how the 16 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: concept works in Ecuador. 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: Well. 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 3: Ecuador in two thousand and eight rewrote its constitution and 19 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: it was passed by the majority of Equilorians. And what 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: we decided is that we don't want to follow a 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 3: model development, like a socialism model or a capitalist model, 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: because all those model were proven to be wrong, and 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 3: we decided to recognize something that is that we are 24 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,279 Speaker 3: going to fight for, and we're going to be working 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 3: for a model basic will being. What's what's establishing the 26 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 3: constitution is a model basic will bean And what will 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: being or sumacausai or wembibat in Spanish, will being is 28 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: this notion of believing in harmony with nature. 29 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: And here is a handy explainer from the Community Environmental 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: Legal Defense Fund, which has been leading a lot of 31 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 1: the fights for rights of nature in the US. 32 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 4: Under the current system of law, nature is considered to 33 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 4: be property. When something is considered property, that often gives 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 4: the property owner the right to damage it. Therefore, those 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 4: who own these natural communities are largely allowed to use 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 4: them however they wish, even if that includes destroying it. 37 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 4: Rights of nature is honoring and recognizing that nature has 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 4: the right to exist, flourish, and thrive. Laws recognizing the 39 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 4: rights of nature change the status of these ecosystems to 40 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 4: being recognized as rights bearing entities. 41 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: In late twenty twenty, the Ecuadorian Constitutional Court heard a 42 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: rights of nature case for the first time. It's called 43 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: the Lessdros case and here's what it's about in broad strokes. 44 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: With the country's oil revenue on the decline, in twenty seventeen, 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: the Ecuadorian government opened up public lands for mining concessions, 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: some six million acres, including at least sixty eight percent 47 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: of Los Ceedros, a protected cloud forest. The idea was 48 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: that those mining profits would make up for lost oil 49 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: revenue the long shadow of oil colonialism. But because there 50 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: was that rights of nature provision in the constitution, citizen 51 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: groups were able to sue the government for this move. 52 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: They called it unconstitutional, and a couple of the justices 53 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: on that court wrote about it ahead of time, seeing 54 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: how important the forest was to protect and how eager 55 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: they were to think through the application of rights of nature. 56 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: Their decision hasn't come down yet, but when it does, 57 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: it's going to have a major impact all over the world. Meanwhile, 58 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: communities in the US have started to embrace this idea too, 59 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: and no surprise, their biggest opponents are oil and gas companies. 60 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: There's a concerted effort underfoots supported by the American Petroleum Institute, 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: to pass laws that would preempt rights of nature laws 62 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: from ever being passed. I'm joined today by Joshua Boaz 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Probannik and Melissa Troutman. They're the co founders of the 64 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,679 Speaker 1: great independent journalism outlet, Public Herald. They've done a lot 65 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: of the work on fracking and the impacts of that 66 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,239 Speaker 1: industry on Pennsylvania and Ohio and on water in general. 67 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: They made a documentary about rights of nature called Invisible Hand. 68 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: It takes a look at the push for rights of 69 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: nature laws in the US, particularly in two spots in 70 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: Ohio and Pennsylvania. The film came out in twenty twenty. 71 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: Here's a little sampling of it. 72 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 5: What do you say to your critics that say this 73 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 5: is absolutely bad ship and crazy absurd? 74 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 6: Cai goa. 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 7: We recognize a right that this watershed has had that's 76 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 7: long been ignored, its right to thrive. 77 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: To flourish, an injection will problem. 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 7: We have a democracy problem. 79 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: We have shifted our government to one that's now become 80 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: totally corporate control. 81 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 7: If a corporation has the same constitutional rights as an individual, 82 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 7: why couldn't an ecosystem. 83 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: Melissa and josh talked about how they came to follow 84 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: the rights of nature, how they've seen it play out 85 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: on the ground in Pennsylvania and Ohio and why the 86 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: idea has an unlikely opponent big environmental groups. That conversation 87 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: coming up right after this quick break. I'm Amy Westervelt 88 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: and this is drilled. 89 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 7: I get Google alerts for rights of nature in my 90 00:05:54,200 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 7: inbox every day, and it's there's constantly new news about 91 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 7: rights of nature all over the globe, particularly in the 92 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 7: United States. What's happening right now is there's a growing 93 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 7: movement to establish rights of nature in Florida to protect 94 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 7: the fragile ecosystems down there, particularly from the effects of 95 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 7: climate change. Interesting, and there's also some news just that 96 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 7: I just read today that there's a Convention on Biological 97 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 7: Diversity and that's an international environmental treaty and they just 98 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 7: convened in Colorado a couple of days ago and signed 99 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 7: the first international environmental Treaty to advance the rights of nature. Wow. 100 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 7: Is a milestone for the global environmental movement, and that 101 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 7: will be voted on at their next meeting in China. 102 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 7: So there's a lot more happening worldwide. The big case, 103 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 7: you know, the big spotlight that everybody in the movements 104 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 7: watching right now is Ecuador, right because in Ecuador was 105 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 7: the first country to establish rights of nature in its 106 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 7: national constitution back in two thousand and eight, and for 107 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 7: about ten years after that, there were a couple of 108 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 7: cases that went before the Constitutional Court in Ecuador, but 109 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 7: those the judges at the time didn't seem to prioritize 110 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 7: rights of nature, so it didn't really nothing much happened there. 111 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 7: But as of twenty nineteen, there's a new panel of 112 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 7: judges on the Constitutional Court in Ecuador, and this particular 113 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 7: court has prioritized rights of major specifically, and they have 114 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 7: selected a few cases to concentrate on so that the 115 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 7: parameters of rights of nature, how it is applied in 116 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 7: practical ways, the scope of the law is worked out. 117 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 7: And one of those cases before the Constitutional Constitutional Court 118 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 7: of Ecuador is a case to protect Los Adro's Forest 119 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 7: Reserve from mining. It's a very, very ecologically diverse forest 120 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 7: that will be gone if concessions for mining put forth 121 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 7: by the Ecuadorian government will go through. 122 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 6: Well, I think we should speak, you know, to some 123 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 6: of the updates in the film too. You have the 124 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 6: Lake Erie Bill of Rights, which is one of the 125 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 6: stories that's covered in the film. That's an international waters case. 126 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 6: So you do have these conflicting Lake Erie resolutions about 127 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 6: you know, how much water is going to be taken 128 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 6: out of the lake for instance. Yeah, so, I mean 129 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 6: you're dealing with, you know, basically treaty type situations where 130 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 6: you're trying to come to an agreement between the two 131 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 6: the two you know, international borders. But those those confrontations 132 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 6: and and and that kind of court case in negotiation 133 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 6: seems to be something that's going to happen here in 134 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 6: the future. There's certainly a lot of discussion about you know, 135 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 6: toxic trespass, the idea of Canada or somebody else introducing 136 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 6: pollution from one country into another and holding them accountable. 137 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 6: But I think that you know, in the cases with 138 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 6: Lake Erie, you know, rather than the regulatory agency being 139 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 6: the people who take over that decision making process about 140 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 6: what's going on with the lake and its health, the 141 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 6: local community is able to gain the kind of power 142 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 6: and authority that they need through rights of nature, you know, 143 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 6: if Toledo is able to make that sacro saying in 144 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 6: the city. Yeah, so that that way they're dealing with 145 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 6: you know, Canada or somebody else across the table when 146 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 6: it comes to negotiations about Lake Erie and they're doing 147 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 6: it on behalf of Lake Erie, Yeah, rather than behalf 148 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 6: of these regulations who you know, have basically polluted that 149 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 6: lake to the point where it's unswimmable, undrinkable, you know, 150 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 6: is killing a massive number of. 151 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 8: Species just due to the way. 152 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 6: Permits have been handed out on that west side of 153 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 6: the of the Lake Erie basin. And just recently, you know, 154 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 6: the city is negotiating whether or not to pay out 155 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 6: two hundred thousand dollars in attorney costs and basically for 156 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 6: this this you know bill that they passed that they 157 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 6: had to argue in front of the court and the 158 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 6: you know, the prosecutions asking for payment of two hundred 159 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 6: thousand dollars. So they're negotiating whether or not to payments 160 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 6: pay that. So if you want to take action, you 161 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 6: can either help you know, Taledoans for Safe Water raise 162 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 6: funds to you know, contribute to that fight over there, 163 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 6: or you can contact Toledo directly and tell them not 164 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 6: to participate in this you know, egregious request to make 165 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 6: the city pay this two hundred thousand dollars for a 166 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 6: democratically elected bill. 167 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 9: I'm curious about sort of you know what your your 168 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 9: hopes are for this documentary in terms of raising awareness 169 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 9: or where it. 170 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: Might kind of. 171 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 9: I don't know, just help to take the story well. 172 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 7: Joshua and I since co found Public Herald in twenty eleven, 173 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 7: we've come into this work through water. Our initial projects 174 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 7: were investigations of water contamination, the cover up of water 175 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 7: contamination related to fracking development in protected watersheds in Pennsylvania. 176 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 7: And it was over the past ten years that we've discovered, 177 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 7: I mean, it didn't take ten years, but that we've 178 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 7: discovered that the system of law that is in place 179 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 7: of environmental law, that is supposed to protect things like 180 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 7: our water, which is essential for life, of course, are 181 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 7: not are They fail And an examination of why they 182 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 7: fail brought us to create this documentary Invisible Hand, And 183 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 7: with this film, I see it as just the beginning 184 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 7: of continued coverage of how people confront the systemic fundamental 185 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 7: flaws in our legal system and in our society which 186 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 7: is built on you know, these same legal foundations, but 187 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 7: also our value system. You know, as we struggle with 188 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 7: climate change, with racism, with ecoside, I mean, all of 189 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 7: these problems stem from the same fundamental flaw for me, 190 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 7: which is a disconnection from the laws of nature, which 191 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 7: govern the universe and keep everything in balance. I think 192 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 7: that the film is just the beginning of covering this, 193 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 7: and it really it's the film is about the movement 194 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 7: that itself is in its infancy in terms of the 195 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 7: way that movements go. So my hope is that this 196 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 7: film introduces the concept to a level of detail to 197 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 7: people who may have never heard of it or who 198 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 7: just heard it in passing, and shows how communities actually 199 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 7: implement this and how brave and resilient they are in 200 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 7: this fight, because it's a really really hard one. I mean, 201 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 7: we're talking about shifting a paradigm which is not just 202 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 7: our legal system but also also our civilization and the. 203 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: Way we live. 204 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 7: That is a huge, huge deal. But as for as 205 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 7: big is that as the struggle is, it's also very 206 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 7: very simple. Yeah, because the laws of nature are simple. 207 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 9: I'm glad that you used all the clips of like 208 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 9: the people's saying this is so silly, This is ridiculous, 209 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 9: in contrast with like the woman explaining what it actually does. 210 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 9: Because people do they talk about it as like, oh, 211 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 9: what do you want a treat to be? In negotiating 212 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,479 Speaker 9: these treaties you know, and no, we're talking about community 213 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 9: control over the resources that the community depends on, which 214 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 9: they don't have otherwise. 215 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 6: Truly, truly they don't have. And Grant is a perfect, 216 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 6: you know example of that, and so is Toledo and 217 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 6: then some of the other people that we, yeah, included 218 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 6: in the film, And yeah, you're right, I mean, it 219 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 6: was really nice to hear from these these antagonists and 220 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 6: what they have to say about it, because you know, 221 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 6: when you listen to those arguments about basically why life 222 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 6: shouldn't have rights, they sound pretty obscene and they get 223 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 6: to kind of the core of the problems with capitalism 224 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 6: and with you know, libertarianism or other things like that, 225 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 6: which have created this enormously selfish situation that relies on 226 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 6: a completely utopian fantasy that we will have unlimited resources 227 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 6: provided by the earth forever. 228 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: I wonder if there are thoughts that you have on 229 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: the media side of this coin and sort of how 230 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: these stories do or don't get amplified in the in 231 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: the broader media sphere. And oh and like, yeah, I'm 232 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: sure you have many thoughts on that. 233 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, documentary on that it was because it was so 234 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 6: it was so bad, It was so bad. We were 235 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 6: all right, Melissa and I have nothing, you know, but 236 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 6: the best intentions when it comes to sharing a story. 237 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 6: You know, Public Carol is not some kind of profit 238 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 6: machine wherever. 239 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 8: We're worried about our bottom line. 240 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 6: Our goal is to you know, to tell the story 241 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 6: the way it is, rather than allow these propaganda machines 242 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 6: to keep operating and basically either diffuse stories or just 243 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 6: either lie and tell fall story. So we I remember 244 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 6: we were talking about this and we had a documentary 245 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 6: that we thought of called Journation, which was the mix 246 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 6: between journalism and public relations, because we have so much 247 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 6: of the journalism that we expected to work with across 248 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 6: the state had been infiltrated by this public relations fallacy 249 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 6: of balanced journalism that they were just they were shooting 250 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 6: themselves in the foot every time they try to publish 251 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 6: a story. You know, we would have we would send 252 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 6: them a story like say, for instance, we sent a 253 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 6: newspaper story that was that first complaint story that we 254 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 6: did in twenty fourteen, which was on the Daily Show. 255 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 8: And it's this like really grainy. 256 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 6: You know, look at how a complaint happens from day 257 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 6: one to like day forty five, when the investigation is 258 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 6: you know, concluded, and you're reading the story and it's 259 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 6: happening in real time. You know, as you're reading it, 260 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 6: you know, you're on day thirty one and with the 261 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 6: complaint and the readers on day thirty one, you're reading 262 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 6: it like as it's happening. So we're including all the 263 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 6: sources and everything, and we give this to another newspaper 264 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 6: to publish a print version of it locally, and they 265 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 6: weren't able to do it because they weren't able to 266 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 6: balance the story by calling the state and the industry 267 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 6: pr groups to provide a positive spin on all of 268 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 6: this negative shit that was. 269 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 7: Happening on people being without water for months of the time. Yeah, 270 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 7: I was like, right, because there's something positive in there 271 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 7: about that. 272 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 6: You are they're saying, you know, I'm like, you guys 273 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 6: are editorializing these stories. 274 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 8: You understand that, right. 275 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 6: You think you're creating a balance, but you're not actually 276 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 6: including what's happening with just the primary sources and just 277 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 6: the people involved. You're trying to paint this reality with 278 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 6: these outsiders and bringing their voices in to shroud the 279 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 6: seriousness of what these people are facing and the fact 280 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 6: that the state doesn't want to comment, Like, that's what 281 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 6: the state doesn't want to do. So that's what you publish, 282 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 6: you don't you know that you can't publish the story 283 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 6: until you get a comment. You've got all the state's 284 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 6: emails and everything else. So this happened everywhere. This happened 285 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 6: with our relationships with NPR. You know, we tried to 286 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 6: do some stories with NPR and and that just went 287 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 6: totally south and and they got stuff way wrong. Yeahs, 288 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 6: and we we we published this giant report about state 289 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 6: misconduct with layers of evidence just thrown throughout the whole 290 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 6: thing about specific cases where the this. 291 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 7: Is very well placed. 292 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 6: Looking atamination and uh so we're like, you know, hey, 293 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 6: you guys, we we just worked on this for three years. 294 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 6: We really want you to cover this story about the 295 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 6: state misconduct and the attorney gen generals investigating it. Like, 296 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 6: we've talked to the attorney general. They're out in the field, 297 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 6: they're talking to people. They're like, well, we can't write 298 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 6: a story until the attorney general tells us that they're 299 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 6: investigating it. 300 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 8: I'm like, it's the attorney general. 301 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 9: They're gonna yeah, they don't do that, guys. 302 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 8: They're investigating dipshits go up there published. 303 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 6: That's been like the constant wall of trying to to 304 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 6: take these stories that are so important and that our 305 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 6: people are suffering with and get them into the mainstream media. 306 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 6: And the mainstream media just has this amazing wall that 307 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 6: they don't let anything through, which it's it's it's not 308 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 6: such a big deal for us because we haven't a 309 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 6: huge readership, right so it's not like, you know, we 310 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 6: haven't fallen short on that side of it. We utilize 311 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 6: things like Google Ads, we utilize things like social media, 312 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 6: you know, and all the different advertising platforms in public. 313 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 8: Film is really good distribution and in the film the. 314 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 7: Films themselves have really built our audience. But the issue 315 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 7: with not getting into mainstream is that we're not getting 316 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 7: to their audience. And these these are people who need 317 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 7: to be informed about what's actually going on. You know, 318 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 7: we have an election coming up and people are voting, 319 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 7: and and if you don't know the truth about everything, 320 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 7: if you have this picture in your mind of what's 321 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 7: happening with fracking, for instance, in Pennsylvania, which is the 322 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 7: second largest producer of natural gas in the country, if 323 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 7: you do if you have this picture of things as 324 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 7: if they're balanced, which is what the mainstream media tends 325 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 7: to report, including people like MPR. Then people think things 326 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 7: are okay, and that is very very much not the case. 327 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 328 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 5: We we covered this in a drilled season of like 329 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 5: exactly how the whole false equivalence thing was created mostly 330 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 5: by oil and gas companies. Like the woman who's in 331 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 5: charge of the Corporation for. 332 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 9: Public Broadcasting right now is you know, was one of 333 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 9: the like key architects of that and of climate denial, 334 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 9: and in fact like came up with the fucking term 335 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 9: clean coal. 336 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 10: So like, god, yeah, I'm not surprised that NPR does 337 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 10: a bad job. 338 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 9: Wow, I'm curious what you're actually seeing on the ground 339 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 9: with people in Pennsylvania and you know how you know, 340 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 9: tracking regulation plays there. 341 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 8: I have a I have my own version of that 342 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 8: most of you. 343 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 7: I'll share, you share your share living on the front. 344 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 6: So I've been you know, I went to college and 345 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 6: studied comprehensive planning and zoning, and I saw a lot 346 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 6: of that work happening in Pennsylvania with regards to controlling 347 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 6: fracking and keeping it in. 348 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 8: Specific zones in the community. 349 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 6: And you know, working with food and water watch to 350 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 6: create a zoning plan that'll protect your community from oil 351 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 6: and gas and these kinds of things. And here you 352 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 6: have Grant right, and Grant is doing the exact opposite. 353 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 6: Grant is saying for you to tell me that I 354 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 6: have to zone things in my area and then make 355 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 6: sure that there is a place for waste in our community. 356 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 6: Make sure there's a zone for waste in our community. 357 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 6: That's fucking unconstitutional, and we're not going to do that. 358 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 8: We're going to pass home rule. And this home rule 359 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 8: will have a bill. 360 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 6: Of rights, which says what our laws are and what 361 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 6: you must follow when you're in our community. It will 362 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 6: not be these unconstitutional mandates that we have to accept 363 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 6: waste or we have to accept fracking in our community. 364 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 8: And that's something that Pennsylvania allows. 365 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 6: Now, the problem is with banning fracking in pennsylvani And 366 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 6: why you don't see Grant in one hundred other communities 367 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 6: like you did in a place like New York. 368 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 8: Is the entire green movement in Pennsylvania. 369 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 6: Every single organization I've ever talked to about this, No 370 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 6: one is focusing on passing home rule bands inside of communities, 371 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 6: except for Cell Deaf Cell DEEV is the only one 372 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 6: I know who's like created a platform for communities that 373 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 6: actually ban fracking or ban infrastructure, or ban landfills or 374 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 6: ban anything, you know, through something like home rule, because 375 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 6: they've said, this is the this is the most powerful 376 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 6: part of the law, and this is where we're going 377 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 6: to help you pass if you want to pass. And 378 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 6: they're not going to push any of that out you. 379 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 6: They're just like suggesting, you know what it is that 380 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 6: they know. However, the environmental organizations have completely lost track 381 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 6: of how to deal with this with this problem, and 382 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 6: they are entirely invested in zoning, an ordnance plan plans, 383 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 6: entirely invested. So they're taking communities who are in dire 384 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 6: straight who want to ban fracking so it doesn't happen 385 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 6: next to the school, or they want to banfracking and 386 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 6: they don't want these wells, or they don't want injection 387 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 6: wells like plump Township, right, And they're taking these communities 388 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 6: and they're saying, well, we'll help you build these really 389 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 6: strong zoning and ordance laws and that'll make everything okay. 390 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 6: And I don't have an example of where that's okay. 391 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 6: All I ever see with Melissa and I filming this stuff, 392 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 6: and we have been to I cannot tell you how 393 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 6: many of these boring ass zoning meetings. 394 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 8: It's a hearing and we're there for four hours. Yeah, 395 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 8: the whole damn thing, watching every attorney talk. 396 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 6: I mean so many times did we do this for 397 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 6: this film to try and find one positive piece to 398 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 6: stick in there about zoning and ordance. 399 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 8: We couldn't get a shred of it. It was just 400 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 8: a total total failure. 401 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 6: So on the banning side and that whole situation, there 402 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 6: is not good communication in Pennsylvania about your opportunities to 403 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 6: ban fracking locally with Homer, and that's something that as reporters, 404 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 6: I feel really important to share with communities because other 405 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 6: newspapers have said, like you, Grand Township will not win, right, 406 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 6: Grand Township is a case of home rule, and they 407 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 6: won't win and this isn't gonna work. And then they win, 408 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 6: And I'm like, are you gonna go back and retract 409 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 6: your statement in your paper? Like do we need to 410 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 6: send you corrections for this? Because you just misled a 411 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 6: lot of readers about what they're supposed to do with 412 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 6: fracking and basically told them that what Grant's doing, which 413 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 6: is the exact same thing that somebody like Pittsburgh did, 414 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 6: which has a band unfracking isn't going to hold up in. 415 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 8: Court when in fact it has. 416 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 6: So Yeah, it's a really confusing situation on that front. 417 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 8: Now, you know, Ohio was different. 418 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 6: Ohio lost that control their state Supreme Court stripped them 419 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 6: of local control. So they need to go at the 420 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 6: state level and kind of work their way down. But yeah, 421 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 6: it's it's a really dynamic story and I wish somebody 422 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 6: would write about it. 423 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 8: We just don't have the capacity right now. 424 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the environmental groups in Pennsylvania have 425 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 7: there's no campaign to ban fracking in Pennsylvania, even though 426 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 7: as you're seeing in the polls, Amy that the majority 427 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 7: of people in Pennsylvania support a moratorium at the least. 428 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 7: And so it's a bit of a mystery to me 429 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 7: why that is. I don't know if it's because a 430 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 7: lot of the environmental organizations live are based in cities, 431 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 7: and there's no fracking in cities. So I work remotely 432 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 7: and I live my family with my family on the. 433 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 9: Front lines of fracking. 434 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: We live. 435 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 7: Very on a road that is essentially become the driveway 436 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 7: for a fracking wastewater facility. So there's active there's radioactive 437 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 7: fracking waste being driven over top of our water supply 438 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 7: all the time. Wow, and right. The environmental community does 439 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 7: not get behind the rights of nature community rights movement. 440 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 7: In fact, when I've brought it up with environmental groups, 441 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 7: their response is that, well, if we allow communities to 442 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 7: decide what's right for them, then some of them will 443 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 7: choose what's wrong. They'll choose to enact laws to promote 444 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 7: bad things like more fracking. Right, And I try to explain, 445 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 7: you know, that's not exactly how it works. I mean, 446 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 7: you community rights work as an addition of increased protection. 447 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 7: It doesn't steal. You can't pass a local law that's 448 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 7: going to poison the next community over. That's that's not 449 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 7: that's not the purpose and the meaning of it all is. 450 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 7: So I think that fear is very unfounded. 451 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 9: But that's interesting. 452 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 10: Do you think that also that like with the larger 453 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 10: like with the national environmental orgs that they are, that 454 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 10: it's some kind of playing politics thing too, that they're 455 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 10: just like worried, But it's like they've bought into this 456 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 10: this story. A fracking ban is like untenable to voters 457 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 10: and whatever. 458 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 6: Food and Water Watch is a fracking ban organization, yeah, 459 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 6: but in Pennsylvania that push does not exist. It is 460 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 6: a zone, zoning, an ordnance organization. And I've confronted them 461 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 6: on this because we showed triple Divide it or invisible 462 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 6: hand early at one point and a community wanted to 463 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 6: use home rule, they wanted to ban fracking, and Food 464 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 6: and Water Watch wouldn't come to the show, They wouldn't 465 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 6: show up at the show, even though they have field 466 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 6: agents in that community because it wasn't a zoning an 467 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 6: ordinance situation. 468 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 8: It was a home rule band fracking situation. 469 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 6: And I kind of, uh, you know, I felt an 470 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 6: obligation there, as you know, as a journalist, to make 471 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 6: that clear. So I did publish my own editorial in 472 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 6: regards to the Mayor of Pittsburgh's statements about home rule 473 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 6: and why they felt that home rule was the only 474 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 6: thing that would stop fracking in Pittsburgh rather than zoning 475 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 6: and ordnance laws, which it has up to this point, 476 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 6: against what I was being told by the Food and 477 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 6: Water Watch organization in Pennsylvania, which was that, you know, 478 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 6: the route, the better route to take was to try 479 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 6: and push fracking to the edges of the community through zoning, 480 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 6: which if you've ever been involved in a case with 481 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 6: a corporation under zoning laws, they will find a way, 482 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 6: one way or another to change your zone so they 483 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 6: can put their well pad there. If they don't do 484 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 6: it this year, they'll do it four years down the road, 485 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 6: which is exactly what they did in this community who 486 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 6: wanted to have home rule and ban oil and gas 487 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 6: infrastructure because a natural gas power plant from in Energy 488 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 6: was proposed to be built there and it is, you know, 489 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 6: right now getting its air quality permits outside of the 490 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 6: Pittsburgh and Elizabeth township. Kay, and it will increase dramatically 491 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 6: all these different particulates in air pollution that's happening in 492 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 6: the Pittsburgh. 493 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 8: Region, And that could have all been stopped had green. 494 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 6: Organizations created some kind of mobility and support for a 495 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 6: community who had you know, a dozen or more people 496 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 6: organized to go out collect signatures, get home roll passed, 497 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 6: and ban a power plant. But instead, you know, they 498 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 6: were left on their own. They were ostracized by bigger 499 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 6: green organizations for taking this position. I mean, it's an 500 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 6: astonishing treatment of the good intentions of a community to 501 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 6: protect themselves. 502 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 9: That's really interesting. 503 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 7: I mean, all of these environmental organizations are funded by 504 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 7: philothrapic foundations, right, and many of these foundations their priority 505 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 7: is to make the system that's in place work better. 506 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 7: What the fundamental piece that's missing is that the system 507 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 7: is working precisely as it's supposed to. And we can 508 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 7: dicker and play whack a mole to rearrange words on 509 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 7: pieces of paper that are always meant to treat nature 510 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 7: as property and always meant to prioritize commerce over basic life, 511 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 7: and the problem that remains the same. You know, it's 512 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 7: our laws are designed to serve an economic paradigm that 513 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 7: treats as property and as a commodity, and that paradigm, 514 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 7: it's it's our environmental laws come from that system, and 515 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 7: that's why they have failed, and they are going to 516 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 7: continue to fail until we see nature as something else, 517 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 7: until we see nature as what it really is. The 518 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 7: Rights of Nature movement that we've come to cover after 519 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 7: covering all of this environmental degradation and this infighting about 520 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 7: how to protect ourselves and you know, do we pass 521 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 7: home rule laws or do we zone it to the 522 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 7: outskirts of our community, which is incredibly unjust by the 523 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 7: way our way of life and our system of law 524 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 7: are constantly extracting far from from the outskirts of the 525 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 7: marginalized people in places and until and the environmental groups 526 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 7: are wrapped into that system. They're part of the capitalist system, 527 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 7: the colonial system that has created this problem and will 528 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 7: continue to until we manage to fundamentally shift the not 529 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 7: our structure of law and our value system and the people. 530 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 7: You know, you mentioned the technologists that think that we 531 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 7: can we can techno fix our way out of this problem, 532 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 7: but that is absolutely absurd because technology, you don't just 533 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 7: wave a wand and create a piece of technology out 534 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 7: of thin air. It has to be extracted from somewhere, 535 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 7: and it's usually composed of pieces and parts and materials 536 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 7: that are extracted from those marginalized communities that have been 537 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 7: sacrificed for hundreds of years now through the through the 538 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 7: industrial revolution. And so to techno fix our way out 539 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 7: is just to perpetuate more of the same harm. But 540 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 7: what we need to do, and I'm not saying that 541 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 7: technology isn't part of the our solutions moving forward, but 542 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 7: we have to put at the center of our decision 543 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 7: making processes nature and the laws of nature. We have 544 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 7: to start there. We have to design our future systems 545 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 7: and redesign our way of life and redesign our legal 546 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 7: system with the laws of nature at the center. We 547 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 7: have to before we switch to one renewable energy, we. 548 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 10: Have to ask. 549 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 7: How and where. We need to ask ourselves how to 550 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 7: do that in alignment with the laws of nature. And 551 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 7: that's that's just how we have to do it moving forward. 552 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 7: It's not about you can never cut down a tree 553 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 7: or you can never drive a car. It's about how 554 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 7: we do that as can. Communities has interconnected communities of 555 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 7: people and living other non human relatives. You know, maybe 556 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 7: we don't each have maybe each you know, it's not 557 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 7: that we can't drive a car, it's that we have 558 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 7: to share cars. It's not that we can't cut down 559 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 7: agree it's that we have to acknowledge that we share forests. 560 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 7: And for one corporation to cut to to take a 561 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 7: forest like Los Adros, or a mining company to like 562 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 7: in Ecuador, to for them to get a concession to 563 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 7: decimate an entire forest, that kind of activity, that kind 564 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 7: of economic paradigm, that kind of social value system needs 565 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 7: to absolutely end, it's suicide if we don't. And instead, 566 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 7: the decisions that we make moving forward about whether it's 567 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 7: to mine lithium for electric car batteries or cut down 568 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 7: trees for housing material, those communities need to those decisions 569 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 7: need to be made as communities, not as you know, 570 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 7: corporate entities that can that sit at the top of 571 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 7: the priority list for our legal system