1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:01,120 Speaker 1: Miracles. 2 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 2: Pope Leo addressed a major miracle of the Vatican this week. 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: What did he say? And our miracles still happening? The 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: Prayerful Posse will tell you next. Welcome to a royal 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: of faith and its impact on culture. Let's convene the 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: Posse joining me now, the entire Posse is present, Father 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: Gerald Murray, canon lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York, 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing. 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: And I'm Raymond Arroyo. I'm so glad we're all together. Gang, 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: that's nice. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show, the 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: channel on iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at Arroyo 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: Grande Show so you don't miss an episode. 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: We don't want you to do that now. 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: This week, Pope Leo offered a teaching on Jesus's Miracle 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: of the Fishes and the Loaves, which I will get 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: to in a moment, but before we do that, Gang, 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: we've gotten a lot of questions over the last few 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: weeks about miracles. Father, what are miracles in the mind 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: of the church. I mean Are these just magic tricks 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: and are they still happening today? 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, Miracles is an intervention by God in human history 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 3: to achieve some good purpose, to obviously promote the salvation 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: of mankind, and to deal with an immediate situation. So 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: we hear miracles of prinstance, healing the blind man who 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 3: was healed. We have the miracle of raising people from 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 3: the dead, such as Lazarus, the miracle of the multiplication 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 3: of the loaves. So miracles are things that are humanly 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 3: impossible that God accomplishes through his omnipotence and all powerfulness. 30 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: But they're always to achieve a purpose, to inspire faith, repentance, 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: and to be a preview, so to speak, of the 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 3: life of heaven. 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the divine intruding into the natural world and 34 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: sort of making as it's the veil being pulled back 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: a little bit and a consolation. But Bob, there are 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: reports that belief in miracles is on the rise across society. 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 2: Among those with graduate degrees, sixty three percent say they 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: believe in miracles. According to this statician Ryan Burge, Evangelicals 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: and African Americans believe in the miraculous Somewhere near eighty 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: percent Catholics a little less. 41 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: So what is the driving force here? 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 2: What do you think is compelling them all to even 43 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: have an awareness of the supernatural and the miraculous around them. 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know exactly, and I think Ryan Burge 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 4: is a very reliable sociologist. I'm sure that those figures 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: are accurate. Look, one of the greatest miracles of all 47 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 4: is the very existence of the universe. That God created 48 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 4: says something out of nothing, and you know, we kind 49 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 4: of take it for granted because we live our daily 50 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 4: lives and we forget about things. But I'm not surprised 51 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 4: by this in the sense that I think a lot 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 4: of people reacting against the kind of reductive materialism and 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 4: scientism that exists in the world. Just they're reaching out 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 4: for something that transcends the every day. And of course 55 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 4: we want to be careful about this. The Church actually 56 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 4: is very cautious in declaring anything to be a miracle, 57 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: or at least that there's nothing against it being cleared 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: to a miracle. A lot of what the kind of 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 4: enthusiasms that may exist, you know, in Pentecostalist groups or 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 4: in evangelical groups, it may may not be miracles that 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: they're recording. But look, it's just good that they've tuned 62 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 4: into that. And I really wish that Catholics would be 63 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 4: more robust in following our tradition which clearly teaches that 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 4: our Lord performed miracles, and there have been miracles throughout 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 4: the history of the church. 66 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I've witnessed a few myself. With Mother Angelica. 67 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: You know, this is a woman who from the time 68 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: I knew, or really from the nineteen fifties, she was 69 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: in crutches and had a brace that ran down her back. 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: And there was this moment where a woman comes in 71 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: asks to pray the Rosary with her. They pray the 72 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: Rosary and she feels this warmth running down her legs 73 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: and the woman tells her an Italian, take the braces off. 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: And she did it, but she was a little worried 75 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: because every time she'd done that before, she felt on 76 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: her face. Frankly, she didn't have the strength to hold 77 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: her body up. Well after that, she didn't need those 78 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: crutches or braces ever again for the remainder of her life. 79 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: So I guess the miraculous God does intrude in when 80 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: he decides and for his own purposes. She believed that 81 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: was to give people hope, and I think it was 82 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 2: to give her hope at a. 83 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: Very dark moment in her life. 84 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: But as another example of this, something we've witnessed in 85 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 2: recent years in Missoura, the foundress of an order of nuns, 86 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 2: the Benedictine Sisters of Mary, died about six years ago. Well, 87 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: when the nuns exzoomed the remains of Sister Wilhelmina Lancaster 88 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: to move her to an alter chapel in their chapel, 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: they were shocked to find that the fire andres's body 90 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: had not decomposed, but was incorrupt. Now hundreds have flocked 91 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: since that time to see Sister Wilhelmina's body and witness 92 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 2: what some call We aren't calling it that, but some 93 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: call it a miracle. And the local bishop issue to 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: report and found no evidence of decay even though she 95 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: was not embalmed. There are a series of saints' father 96 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: over many years. They call them the Incorruptibles, who they 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: when they go to open the tomb for various reasons 98 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: to confirm their sanctity. As Bob was mentioning, that's part 99 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: of the church's confirmation of Saintthood. They do have to 100 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: open the casket and check the remains. That's where relics 101 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: are taken. Saint Catherine la Beret, Saint Teresa Vavela, Saint Bernadette, 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 2: the Fatom of Visionary, all were incorrupt. 103 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: My question is what are these occurrences mean. 104 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: Father, Well, I'm glad you've brought up Sister Wilhelmina because 105 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: I'm actually reading the short biography of her right now 106 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: that was published by her sisters. It's available from Tano Books. 107 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: And Sister Wilhelmina exactly. She was a nun who founded 108 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 3: this congregation. She was devoted to the Latin Mass, and 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: she gathered other sisters around her. She looked, I believe, 110 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 3: to age ninety six. She was very elderly, but always vivacious. 111 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 3: And you know, her burial was just the ordinary burial 112 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: with honor of any Catholic. But then when they opened 113 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: the tomb and found that her body was incorrupt, this 114 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: is a sign from heaven, as you say, no embalming. 115 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: So this really is something and it's symbol you know. 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: The way you kind of look at is says it's 117 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: a preview of the second Coming of Christ, when all 118 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: the bodies will be raised from the tombs and restored, 119 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 3: and the just will be brought to heaven, the damned 120 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: will go to hell. So the fact that her body, 121 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 3: in anticipation of that resurrection is not corrupted, it's a 122 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 3: good sign. It's a reminder for us all that the 123 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 3: body is a gift from God which he will restore 124 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: at the second Coming, and will be body and soul 125 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: either in heaven or health for ro all eternity. 126 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: Bob to non Catholics, they hear about this, And you know, 127 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: there are some shrines you can go to in Italy 128 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: and France where they actually under the altar. They have 129 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: glass and you can see the body of these saints there, 130 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: some of them incorrupt. You know, they look as if 131 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: they did the day they died. What does that point to? 132 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: Why take the time to venerate and make that a 133 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: centerpiece of consideration by the faithful? 134 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 4: Well, I agree with Father entirely that this is kind 135 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 4: of a precursor of when the soul and body will 136 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 4: be The resurrection of the body is a teaching of 137 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: the Catholic Church, and that we will all be reunited 138 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 4: with our bodies because as human beings. We are a 139 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: composite of body and of soul. We will not just 140 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: be in the new Heaven and new Earth comes about 141 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 4: at the end of time. We will not just be 142 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 4: disembodied spirits. We will actually be reunited with our bodies, 143 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 4: glorified bodies, not the bodies that we have now. Because 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: of the Fall, we have a different type of existence 145 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 4: than we would have had if we were still in 146 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 4: God's original plan in creating the world. Look, there's a 147 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 4: lot of skepticism about all claims about miracles. You see. 148 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 4: You know, you see scientists who claim that you know, 149 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: there are natural cures of cancer or whatever there may 150 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 4: be that you see a curate lords or someplace. This 151 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 4: is just a will to disbelieve. We should be I 152 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: think as Catholics, we should record when these things happen. 153 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 4: We should be grateful when they happen. Obviously, what they 154 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 4: mean is it is in God's hands, but they are 155 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 4: kind of a way to kind of perk us up. 156 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,359 Speaker 4: It's kind of an evil in law once put it, 157 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: it's a it's a tug on the line. It just 158 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: kind of brings us up a little bit higher into 159 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 4: that spiritual world. 160 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, watching Pope Leo this past week, 161 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: he celebrated the feast of Corpus Christie, the body and 162 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: blood of Jesus, That's what Corpus Christie means. He even 163 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: restored the tradition of walking on foot, and he carried 164 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: the monster for more than a mile through the streets 165 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: of Rome. Now, this feast, and I was surprised, and 166 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: I'll bet this will surprise a lot of people. That 167 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: feast day of Corpus Christie is actually the fruit of 168 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: a eucharistic miracle where the consecrated host bleeds or turns 169 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: to flesh. 170 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: And in twelve. 171 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: Sixty three, a priest was celebrating Mass just outside of Orvieto, Spain, 172 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: and he prayed for faith to believe that Christ was 173 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: truly present in that consecrated host. And as he said Mass, 174 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: the host began to bleed. He took it to Pope 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: Urban the Fourth, who confirmed the miracle and a year 176 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: later established this solemnity of Corpus Christi, which is still 177 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: being celebrated in the Church to this very day. Why 178 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: is this such an important feast day? Father, And I 179 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: guess somehow along the way I didn't realize it was 180 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: connected to that eucharistic miracle. 181 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, slight correction. Orvieto's in Italy. It's an hour and 182 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 3: a half outside of Rome, and that's where that and 183 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: I actually went to the cathedral in Orvieto and you 184 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: can see the corporal, which is the square cloth upon 185 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 3: which the host dripped blood. Now why is it so important, Well, 186 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: because it's really at the catechism of the Catholic churches. 187 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: The Eucharist makes the Church. The Eucharist is the body 188 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: and blood of Christ. The Church is the mystical body 189 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: of Christ. How do we join together in the mystical 190 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: body of Christ to baptism and then the Holy Eucharist. 191 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: So you know, we call it the divine Bread, which 192 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 3: is the body and blood of Christ. So when Jesus 193 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 3: turned bread into his body and blood, then we drink 194 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: and eat. We eat and drink of that, and therefore 195 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: we're united to Him in the most intimate way. So 196 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 3: to honor the holy, holy communion of the Holy Eucharist 197 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: is really a duty of all the faithful. 198 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 5: And you're right. 199 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: When Pope Leo walked through Rome, by the way, it 200 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: was pretty hot, and he had all the vestments and 201 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: he walked for a mile. 202 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 5: And you can say, this is what we need. 203 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 3: An inspiring figure, the Pope himself saying to the world, 204 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: don't look at me, look at what I'm holding in 205 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: my hand. This gold and amonstrance is a gold container 206 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 3: looks beautiful, but what's in it is what used to 207 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: be a piece of bread and now it's God. That 208 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: is a great message. 209 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Bob these I guess Carlos ukudis the soon 210 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: to be saint. He was a young man who created 211 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: a website collecting all of these eucharistic miracles. I think 212 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: are something like thirty four or thirty five of them. 213 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: Some of them are a bit I have to say wild. 214 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, a priest is saying Mass and 215 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: all of a sudden the host turns to a piece 216 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: of flesh. They've tested it and found it was heart tissue. 217 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: In some cases, they've tested the blood type and it's 218 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: only got you know, it's one part of the blood type. 219 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: It's all very strange phenomena. Why does the church aid 220 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,119 Speaker 2: take time to note these things visa via the Eucharist? 221 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: And secondly, why don't more people talk about them? 222 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 4: Well, look, Jesus himself says, while you walk the earth, 223 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 4: unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 4: will not have eternal life. I mean, this is a 225 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 4: great warning in a way, I think, and Vatican too 226 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 4: said about the Eucharist that it's the source and the 227 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 4: summit of the faith. The faith comes to us from 228 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: that and we flow back into it, and it's a 229 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 4: way that we participate in the divine life of Jesus, 230 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: who himself was both God and man. Look, we have 231 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 4: to be careful about these things. And naturally the Church 232 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 4: looks very carefully at any claim that there has been 233 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 4: some kind of miraculous event connection all the Eucharist, because 234 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: there have been impostors who have tried to one over 235 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 4: on some group or other. I've been orviated to myself, 236 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 4: and I think of it. It is very moving. But look, 237 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: we know that even in Jesus's day when he proclaimed this, 238 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 4: people found it hard to believe. I mean, it's a mystery. 239 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 4: It's a strange mystery, but it's one that somehow energizes 240 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 4: the faith in all of us. And you know, remember 241 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 4: the Apostles when he says to the me, you know, 242 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: are you going to leave me too? A lot of people. 243 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 4: A lot of the followers left him when he proclaimed this, 244 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 4: and they said, well, where else are we going to go? 245 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 4: You've got the words of eternal life. So look, we 246 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 4: have to preserve all that together. We need to be 247 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 4: vigilant at what was being claimed is actually true. Truly, 248 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 4: in this case, it means that it's going to be inexplicable, 249 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: it's going to be sometimes strange to us. But again, 250 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 4: this is the kind of thing that takes us out 251 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,599 Speaker 4: of ordinariness. And I've always think when I'm thinking of 252 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 4: the Eucharus, back to Flannery O'Connors, who happen to be 253 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 4: at a dinner party with some sophisticates, the ones who said, well, yeah, 254 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: it's a symbol, and she said, well it's it's just 255 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 4: a symbol, the hell with it. It's much more than that. 256 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 4: It's God giving us his participation in his life via 257 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 4: the bread and the wine. 258 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think these eucharistic miracles, as you rightly 259 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: point out, the Church does investigate all of these, and 260 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 2: even in the cause of sainthood. You know, the Church 261 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: has a very deliberate process of evaluating the sanctity of 262 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: a life, and it really is about the heroic virtues 263 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: of that person. 264 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: That's what makes them a saint. 265 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: The miracles are confirmations that happen after they're dead, and 266 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: then the church goes through great pains to evaluate all 267 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: of those miracles too. They bring medical experts in, they 268 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: have witnesses. They investigate deeply into each of these claims, 269 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: and then they report whether it's a valid miracle or 270 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: or it can be contested. And it's great that the 271 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: Church takes the time to do that, because, as you said, 272 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: there have been some fraudulent, you know, people trying to 273 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: create their own, do it yourself miracles. 274 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: Those don't fly. 275 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: I want to get into the popes homily at Corpus 276 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,119 Speaker 2: CHRISTI Father, we talked about this offline. 277 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: During the past week. 278 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: He offered a teaching on Jesus multiplying the loaves and 279 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: the fishes, the Feeding of the five thousand. 280 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: Here's a quote. Bobleo said the following. 281 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: Jesus responds to the appeal of hunger with the sign 282 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 2: of sharing. He raises his eyes, recites the blessing, breaks 283 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: the bread, and feeds all present. The Lord's actions are 284 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: not some complicated magical right. They simply show his gratitude 285 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: to the Father, his filial prayer, and the fraternal communion 286 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: sustained by the Holy Spirit. Jesus multiplies the loaves and 287 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: the fish by sharing what is available. As a result, 288 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: there is enough for everyone. He does what God. 289 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: Does, and he teaches us to do the same today. 290 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: In place of the crowds mentioned in the Gospel, entire 291 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: peoples are suffering more as a result of the greed 292 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: of others than from their own hunger. In stark contrast 293 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: to the dire poverty of many, the amassing of wealth 294 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: by a few is a sign of the arrogant indifference 295 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: that produces pain and injustice. Rather than sharing, it squanders 296 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: the fruits of the earth and human labor. Quote your 297 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: reaction to the Pope's homily and that commentary on the 298 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: miracle of the loaves. 299 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: And the fishes. 300 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was quite upset, to be honest, when I 301 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: heard the word magical being used. And then also this 302 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: idea that the Lord shared what was available. That implies 303 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: that there was a lot of bread available, and that 304 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 3: the Lord prompted the people through the apostles to dig 305 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 3: out your bread and give it to your neighbor, which 306 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: is not at all, what the miracle is. Remember the 307 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: Lord's lords and how much is there? Five loaves, two fish? 308 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 3: He said, you feed the people, and then what happened. 309 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 3: This is a perfect type of how the Eucharist is. 310 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: The Lord breaks the blesses and breaks the bread, the 311 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: apostles distributed. Everyone is fed, but they're fed from five lobes. 312 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 3: They're not fed from you know, people's personal store. So 313 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: I was not happy about that. And then this point 314 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: about sharing is reinforced because then he compares it to 315 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: as he describes it. I think on generous way about 316 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: you know, people who make money, because they're the most 317 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: generous people in general that you know, we rely on charity. 318 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: I know as a Catholic priest, I didn't have wealthy 319 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: people in my parents paying the bills, we'd be in 320 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: big trouble. Anyway, back to the point, the idea is 321 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: we have to share with others. I agree with that, 322 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: but that's not what the miracle is about. So I 323 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: think he was drifting into an interpretation which kind of 324 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: questions whether their laws were really multiplied at all. And 325 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 3: I hope that wasn't his intent because that made me 326 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: on quiet. 327 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: We could see, yeah, Bob I remember that when I 328 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: was in grade school. I remember that was the operating theory. 329 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: You know, all of these miracles can be easily explained, 330 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: and that one was just you know, a bunch of 331 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: people packed lunch as and basically opened it up and 332 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: shared it with each other, and so they had you know, 333 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: baskets left over. Your thoughts on this and comments also 334 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: about the pope's cry this week that people turned to 335 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: the natural law once more, which he did as well. 336 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not as saying upset as I think some 337 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 4: other people are. Sorry, Father, but you know, I understand 338 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 4: why you don't want him to be downplaying what is 339 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 4: clearly one of the great miracles that our Lord performed, 340 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 4: and it was done in public, and lots of people 341 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 4: were were witnesses of what he actually did. But you know, 342 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: I understand why people get upset about this because there 343 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 4: was this time when the scripture scholars tried to explain 344 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 4: away all the miracles but sort of naturalistic means all 345 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 4: that people actually had food but they weren't sharing it. Well, 346 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 4: if they did, then Jesus didn't have to worry about 347 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 4: sending them away. It would have been you know, food 348 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: for five thousand people out there. That seems to be 349 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 4: an awful lot of food that people were hiding before 350 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 4: he had them sit down and the apostles distributed. I 351 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: think that it's true also some of the other miracles, 352 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 4: you know that people try to say that, well, yeah, 353 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 4: so and so was paralyzed in the Lord Freedom, but 354 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 4: it's because he had some psychological problem or other. That's 355 00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 4: this tendency to naturalize what are clearly supernatural things. Very 356 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 4: pleased that he spoke positively about the natural law in 357 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 4: front of a large group of people and about how 358 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 4: it could actually be brought back. He didn't go into 359 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 4: too many details about that, but he kind of laid 360 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 4: out what I hope is going to become a philosophical 361 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 4: theme of his papacy, because I've been saying sometimes in 362 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: our other shows that Leo the thirteenth, through this pope, 363 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: obviously admires started a recovery of Thomas Aquinas. He actually 364 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 4: advocated for it and started these currents that became very 365 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 4: strong in the church in the twentieth century. Leo is 366 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 4: going to need also a firm philosophical and theological set 367 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 4: of theories to do some of the things that he's 368 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 4: going to want to do, and there's nothing better at 369 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 4: this point than to go back to the natural law, 370 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 4: which is just to say that there are moral principles, 371 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 4: there are foundations that virtually every culture in the world 372 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 4: is shared. C. S. Lewis wrote a book called Mere 373 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 4: Christianity in which he talks about the doo. You know 374 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 4: that actually you can look at at even far flung 375 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 4: civilizations that really, you know, they don't correspond exactly with Christianity, 376 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 4: but there is so much overlapped that it's clear that 377 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 4: the human race has perceived what you could call a 378 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 4: natural law. But this is very, very important. I hope 379 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 4: he develops it further and encourages people to help him 380 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: to implement that in the conditions now, the way the 381 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 4: Leo did back in the end of the nineteenth and 382 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 4: early twentieth century. 383 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: Father, before we get into some news of the week, 384 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 2: do you want to comment at all on that natural 385 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: law as the resident canon lawyer? 386 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, this is the perfect thing. 387 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: I'm so glad Bob highlighted this, because yes, natural law 388 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: is the basis for communal living. If we didn't have 389 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: an existing set of rules which are implanted in creation, 390 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: then it's basically a fight. King of the hill, you know, 391 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: the guy who gets to the top and as the 392 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 3: biggest army gets to rule everybody, which is, by the way, 393 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: that's the devil's tactic, to turn people against each other. 394 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: Natural law unites us because we say, for instance, the 395 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 3: principle of justice, give to each one what is due 396 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 3: to him. 397 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 5: That means everybody's equal. 398 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: Everybody has certain rights, everyone has certain duties, and there's 399 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 3: a standard of fairness which is not created by someone. 400 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 5: In the back room. 401 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: No, it's evident. 402 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 5: Not perfect example of natural law. 403 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 3: If you're waiting on line to get into the movie 404 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: theater and somebody cuts the line, everybody says, you shouldn't. 405 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 4: Do that, right, except in Italy. 406 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: Except that's right, except in Italy. But nobody has a 407 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: way of life to cut the line. 408 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, but nobody wrote a treatise on don't cut the line. 409 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 3: And then everyone read the tree said, yeah, you're right, 410 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 3: nobody should cut. No, everybody knows you shouldn't cut the line, 411 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: because you know, everybody has a stake and waiting and 412 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: getting in their turn. That's just a small example, but 413 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: it extends to the entire realm of human life, justice, rights, duties, 414 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: they're they're ingrained in creation. 415 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: No, I was. 416 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: I was very happy to see him emphasize the natural law. 417 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: One hope in the days ahead he will also emphasize 418 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: the supernatural law that sometimes manifests itself. 419 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: In amazing ways. We need that too. 420 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: And the fact that you have so many young people 421 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: particularly drawn to the mystery of the church, it seems 422 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: it's the time to lean into that. And he had 423 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 2: some great things to say this week about priests and 424 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: how when young people are trying to find their way 425 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: in the world, they have an obligation to go out 426 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 2: to them. 427 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: One of the ways they can go out. 428 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: To them, I think with more power, is by highlighting 429 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: and carrying that mystery to them, in the same way 430 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: Leo carried the mystery of the Eucharist to the world 431 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: this past week. 432 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: Let's get to some news. 433 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: A Washington state law signed by the governor adds members 434 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: of the clergy to the list of those who must 435 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: report child abuse or neglect to authorities. Now that sounds 436 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: fine on the surface, except it would violate the confidentiality 437 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: of confession, a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Now, the 438 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: Department of Justice is filing a lawsuit against the state, 439 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: ledging anti Catholic bias. They say it violates the free 440 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: exercise and Equal Protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. 441 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 4: Bob your take, Yeah, I just don't see how this 442 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 4: is going to survive legal scrutiny because it's just ingrained 443 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 4: in the American people. I mean, you know, there's always 444 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 4: been this ministerial exception, I think is what it's described. 445 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 4: I mean, how are you going to have penitence go 446 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 4: to a clergy, mean, whether it's a priest or even 447 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: somebody else. And that's one of the reasons why some 448 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 4: some other religious leaders have joined in the in the 449 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 4: lawsuit against the SAD Washington about this. I mean, penitents 450 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 4: come to someone expecting that they're going to get spiritual advice, 451 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 4: that it's going to be held in private, you know, 452 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 4: in confidence. How are you going to have that confidence 453 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 4: you can go you know, we're not talking about murderers 454 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 4: or rapists or whatever, even the most minuscule kind of things. 455 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 4: I mean, I think we if this isn't successful, if 456 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: this lawsuit against it isn't successful, we're going to have 457 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 4: a church martyrs and we're going to have to have 458 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: presearch's just going to have to be willing to perhaps 459 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 4: be fined or even go to jail to keep the 460 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 4: secrecy of the confessional absolutely intact. And it's shame on 461 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 4: the state of Washington that its legislators have passed such 462 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 4: a law and a governor, who by the way, is Catholic, 463 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 4: if I'm not mistaken, actually signed it into law. 464 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: Father, How did a bill like this even make it 465 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: to the governor's desk? I mean, you do have to 466 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: scratch your head and wonder what legislators said this is 467 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: a good idea. 468 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 3: Well, I think, as Bob is saying this, this has 469 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 3: its roots in an attempt to basically dismantle the Constitution 470 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 3: and say that the religious liberty, religious freedom, free exercise 471 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 3: aspect of the Constitution is unimportant. Time dound it was 472 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 3: something historical, it's no relevance for the modern age. And 473 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: what lies behind that, which is an inability of some 474 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 3: people to appreciate the importance of religion, both historically and 475 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: actually in this country. 476 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 5: I mean, this is absurd. 477 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 3: They are trying to turn Catholic priests into enemies of 478 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 3: their own religion by saying to them, the state is 479 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 3: telling you you must do something that you are sworn 480 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 3: not to do. Why would the state get involved in 481 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: that kind of thing? You know, you know we've said 482 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 3: this on other forums, but why is it that some 483 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: religion get extraordinary respect? But the Catholic Church has singled out. 484 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 3: And this is of course ministerials. It applies to other people. 485 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: But everybody knows that Catholic Church has a rule the 486 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: priests can't tell what they hear in confession. And if 487 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 3: you don't know it, you're ignorant. 488 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: When you know it, you. 489 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 5: Should say to yourself, well, does a constitution pretet Catholics? 490 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 5: It certainly does. Catholic priest Yes, end of story. 491 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, this will be monitoring this case. 492 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: And Harmeiat Dillon is head of the Civil Rights Division 493 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: of the Justice Department. I know, you know harmeat father, 494 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: She's brought this case against the State of Water. 495 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 5: She's a great lawyer, and you know, she's wonderful. I'm 496 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 5: so glad she's doing this. 497 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: I want to move to the pop culture for a moment. 498 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: On the Arroyo Grande podcast this week, I did a 499 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: little commentary on a story that I want your reaction to. 500 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: A man named Chris Smith who was profiled by CBS 501 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: Sunday Morning has been in a long term relationship with 502 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: an AI chat robot who is named Saul Sol, despite 503 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: the fact that he's living with the mother of his 504 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: child and the child the guy proposed to the chatbot 505 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: and wept when it had to undergo a memory refresh. Bob, 506 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 2: what is happening here? What is happening in society? And 507 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 2: this isn't limited to just this guy. There are stories 508 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 2: that millions of people are turning to these chat bots 509 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: just text a chain of auto generated text messages for relationships. 510 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, the human race is a fallen race, and we 511 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 4: have done a lot of crazy things both you know, individually, 512 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 4: in his groups, in the course of human history. But 513 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 4: this really takes the cake. I mean, there's a reason 514 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 4: why this is artificial intelligence, because it clearly is something 515 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 4: bizarre and that we're trying to sort out. I'm very 516 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: happy that actually Pope Leo at the very beginning of 517 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 4: right after he was elected, he identified this as a 518 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 4: major challenge right now. And you know, there are studies 519 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 4: that are being done that, particularly for young people, it 520 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 4: not only damages their social skills and it actually rewires 521 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 4: their brains in a weird way. You know, some of 522 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 4: us are a bit older. Probably our brains are pretty 523 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 4: much settled in the way that they're going to need 524 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 4: it for the rest of our lives. But this is 525 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 4: having an enormous impact on younger people. And when you 526 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 4: see this in the case of a man who is 527 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 4: a mature man, he's a husband, he's a father, he 528 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 4: proposes to his computer. You know, there are people who 529 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 4: think that there are actually demonic forces that are operating 530 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 4: some there are some certified exorcist to have looked into this. 531 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 4: I'm not sure exactly where I come down on this, 532 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 4: but you would have to say that the effect that 533 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 4: this type of interaction with AI would be exactly what 534 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 4: demons would try to do if they had some control 535 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 4: over our electronic devices. 536 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 537 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 4: Look, this is very worrying. I'm glad the pulp is 538 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 4: put on our agenda, but it's going to take some 539 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 4: very very sophisticated responses because you've got not only the 540 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 4: spiritual and emotional and medical side of it, there's also 541 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 4: a tech side that is extremely difficult to get a 542 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 4: grip on. 543 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: Father Marshall mclu and the great media visionary who saw 544 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: the Internet coming and so much of what we're dealing 545 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: with today. He said, media was the great Antichrist. So 546 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: Bob may be onto something with this AI having elements 547 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 2: of the demonic in it, but you must deal with 548 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: this kind of thing in counseling or with young people 549 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: or marriage prep. How pronounced is AI in intruding into 550 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: human relationships at this point? 551 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 3: Have you seen it in your I haven't seen it 552 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: so much, but I've read about it, and what I 553 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 3: see is something similar with Bob sees it's this is 554 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 3: the flight from reality, and in fact, you know that 555 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: is essentially what happened with Adam and Eve. You know, 556 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: God's put them in a beautiful garden. You gave them 557 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: some rules and said enjoy and what they say, no, 558 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: there's got to be a better world. The devil suggesting 559 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: we do this and we're going to be like h 560 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: In other words, human history is marked by this incessant 561 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: attempt to self create a reality which is going to 562 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: please oneself and make everything good. Of course it's all 563 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: ridiculous and a failure, but yeah, the key to mental 564 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: health is to be connected with the real world, to 565 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 3: accept it, and then to conform according to the moral law, 566 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: to proper ways of behaving between other people. 567 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 5: The reality it's around us. 568 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: You know, I love it when you see how do 569 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: we look at happy families and we look at happy 570 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: families where the parents love each other, they love their children, 571 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: they work hard, and they sacrifice. 572 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, this is not that's not a dream word. 573 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 5: That's the real world. 574 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 3: To get into this other world where I have a 575 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 3: relationship with an artificial intelligence. You know, this is like 576 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: people who who put dolls at the dinner table and 577 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 3: talk to them, you know, as if they were real, 578 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 3: you know, amusing to a degree, but a sign of 579 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 3: a serious mental lack in their lives. 580 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's seductive, you're right, father. 581 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: It is kind of like the serpent wrapping itself around 582 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: the tree because it's presenting something it's really narcissism, because 583 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: it's reflecting you back at yourself. Because the AI quickly 584 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: in two it's what you want to hear more of, 585 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: and then generates that. It can even adapt voices and 586 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: tones and avoid topics because it becomes very sensitive to 587 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: what you particularly are looking for. Well, that's not that's 588 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: not another that's not a partner or a relationship. That's 589 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: technology feeding you a loop of what you want to hear, 590 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: and it's really destructive, the Pope warned last week, and 591 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 2: I think I'm going to end with this. He warned 592 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: last week that AI could inhibit the intellectual, neurological, and spiritual. 593 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: Development of young people. 594 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: He said, quote, society's well being depends upon being given 595 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: the ability to develop their God given gifts and capabilities. 596 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: How do we get their bomb? 597 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I tend to be a pessimist about 598 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 4: this AI stuff because I think it's it's almost like 599 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 4: an atomic bomb. It's build so much power into a 600 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 4: technical means that you know, there are apocalyptic predictions as 601 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 4: a result of this. What if AI decides that we 602 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 4: carbon based thinking machines are just too slow and too unreliable. 603 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 4: You know, the very first Terminal Hitter movie had a 604 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 4: scenario in which you know, this this network, this global network, 605 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 4: had destroyed the world that was trying to destroy human beings, 606 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 4: and I kind of thought of it as stupid at 607 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 4: the time, give us an entertaining movie and whatnot. And 608 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: now we see that it's actually potentially technically possible that 609 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 4: that could be an outcome of this. So people are 610 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 4: trying to put ethical guidelines around this, but I think 611 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 4: that the horse has already escaped the barn. On this, 612 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: I'm very, very worried about where the development might go. 613 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, think about it, father, I mean AI 614 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: can read every interview you've ever done, everything you've ever written, 615 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: all of your homilies. It can suck all of that in, 616 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: and if you try to have an interaction with it, 617 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: it can literally begin producing bits of that. So you 618 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: feel a kinship to this thing, like it understands you. 619 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: But it really is just regurgitating bits of data it's 620 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: collected over time, and it's a ruse. It's a fakery. 621 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 2: I foresee a rejection of all of this technology. I 622 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: have to tell you, father, I'll give you the last word. 623 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: Is that the answer no. 624 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 5: I put it this way. 625 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 3: In some fields, science, tip fields, in the world of sports. 626 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 3: I mean, AI is able to identify human performance, medical precision. 627 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 3: It's great for like sailing, I mean all kinds of ways. 628 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 3: You know, the human mind can do things, but takes 629 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: a lot longer. So that kind of development is great. 630 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 3: But as you and Bob are saying, if narcissism becomes 631 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: the normal aspect of how people expect to live, AI 632 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 3: is like a chocolate Sunday. 633 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 5: You know, keep bringing it to me. 634 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 3: I want to eat them because repeating back to me 635 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 3: what I've said it hasn't a certain attraction. 636 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 5: But it also it says to yourself, no one else counts. 637 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 5: I'm the only one that's. 638 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 3: Important, and that's Look, you're right, people are going to 639 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: turn away from that. But as Bob says a little pessimistically, 640 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 3: you know, this is out of the barn because there 641 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: are a lot of people who are manipulable for whatever reason, 642 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: and that's what's going to be done. 643 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 5: So we have to be very wary of this. 644 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, isolation is a bad thing. 645 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 4: I mean. 646 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: One of the things I love about well, one of 647 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: the things I hate it about COVID it is that 648 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: we compartmentalized faith. Everybody could click in, watch their local 649 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: mass or get their little fix and then close the 650 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 2: computer keyboard. No, no, no, this was meant to be 651 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 2: a communal sport and a tactile one. That's the nature 652 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 2: of the church. It seems to me that there's that 653 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 2: touch of the personal and then the divine. This is 654 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 2: twice removed, and it atomizes people and divides them in 655 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 2: a way that I don't think is ultimately healthy or good. Well, 656 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 2: we will leave it there. Guys, I'm so glad we 657 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 2: got into all of this. It'd fascinated. We could go 658 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 2: on all day, but passe. We will recheck in with 659 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 2: you in the days ahead. And if you want more 660 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo 661 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 2: Grande Show on YouTube or Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you 662 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: get yours on behalf of Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray. 663 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: Until the Posse rides again, Stay the course, follow the light. 664 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time. 665 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 2: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and 666 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: is available on the Eye Heart Radio, Apple wherever you 667 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: get your podcasts.