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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And since October is Vegetarian Awareness Month,

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Speaker 1: let's get aware, Caroline, so aware. Yes, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about vegetarianism and women. We're not going to focus so

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Speaker 1: much on veganism for vegans listening, And I know you're listening,

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Speaker 1: but there is just with vegetarianism alone, there's so much

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Speaker 1: to talk about. So why don't we kick off though

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Speaker 1: with some stats, as we often do? How many people

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Speaker 1: abstained from meat these days? Caroline? Yeah, I was actually

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Speaker 1: surprised that the numbers were as low as they are.

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Speaker 1: A twenty twelve Gallop Pole found that five percent of

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Speaker 1: Americans consider themselves vegetarian, and that breaks down to about

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Speaker 1: four percent of men pulled and seven percent of women pulled,

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Speaker 1: versus two percent of Americans who considered themselves vegan. And

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Speaker 1: I don't maybe I'm just so randomly surrounded by so

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Speaker 1: many vegetarians, but I thought those numbers would be way higher. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think I don't have the stat in front of me,

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Speaker 1: but there are far more people who might not consider

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Speaker 1: themselves strictly vegetarian, but are at least sort of vegetarian intentional.

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Speaker 1: They'll eat some fish every now and then, they might

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Speaker 1: eat they'll they'll eat meat occasionally, but they try to

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Speaker 1: have a meat limited diet. So maybe, I mean, do

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Speaker 1: you know just a lot of strict vegetarians. I haven't

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Speaker 1: have a few. Maybe maybe maybe they're just overrepresented in

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Speaker 1: certain people I don't know. So well. Stood out to

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Speaker 1: me though, from this Gallop data, was that it was

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Speaker 1: more marital status than gender which influenced vegetarianism, or at

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Speaker 1: least was more strongly correlated to it, because they found

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Speaker 1: that unmarried adults are more than twice as likely as

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Speaker 1: married adults to be vegetarians. Total sense, Maybe that's part

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Speaker 1: of it too, We're just a bunch of unmarried folk

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Speaker 1: all hanging out. Well, No, I mean, I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: this in terms of, like I know that my mother,

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Speaker 1: I mean, she hates it, but she cooks every night

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Speaker 1: for both her and my father, and so I know that,

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Speaker 1: like she just cooks what he'll like and then she

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Speaker 1: eats it too, right, So that could that could be

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Speaker 1: a factor at play? Women cooking meat for men. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just so sick of trying to make two different males.

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Speaker 1: I'm not as short short order cook. And it's a

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Speaker 1: tale as old as time. I tell you what. When

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Speaker 1: it comes to veganism, though, the gender gap is much wider.

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Speaker 1: It's about an eight twenty split, with majority women abstaining

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Speaker 1: from all animal related products, not just meat. And when

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Speaker 1: you look bigger when you go global. As of a

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Speaker 1: two thousand seven European Vegetarian Union poll, the numbers are

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Speaker 1: not that far off from what they are in America.

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Speaker 1: Three percent of Australians say they're vegetarian, four percent of

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Speaker 1: Canadians and just two percent though in the U k.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course you do have largely vegetarian cultures

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Speaker 1: like India, which does consume the least amount of meat

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Speaker 1: per capita than any country around the world, according to

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Speaker 1: data from the u n Food and Agriculture Organization. And

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Speaker 1: if we look at the history of vegetarianism, it's pretty

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Speaker 1: fascinating because today I feel like we associate vegetarianism more

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Speaker 1: with women. They give it more as like a female diet,

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Speaker 1: whereas meat is the manly food. Hang about Ron Swanson

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Speaker 1: on parks in a rack, he who cannot eat enough bacon,

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Speaker 1: but the early history of it was driven largely by men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So back in uh five b C. Pythagoras of Triangles

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Speaker 1: and Theorems is born in hired by a Buddha. He

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Speaker 1: actually became a vegetarian based on his philosophy around animals

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Speaker 1: having souls and that could be reincarnated as humans, and

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Speaker 1: so eating animals would therefore be unjust, and so thanks

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Speaker 1: to his philosophy, later thinkers like Epicurus, Seneca, Plutarch, and

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Speaker 1: Platinus adopted vegetarian diets of their own. And it's notable

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Speaker 1: that since Pythagoras is time, we've been debating the ethics

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Speaker 1: of killing and eating animals because in ancient Greece and Rome,

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Speaker 1: really only the wealthy could afford to eat meat anyway,

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of how it's been meat as something

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Speaker 1: that that's a luxury for the wealthy, has you been

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Speaker 1: sort of the standard until more far more recent history.

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Speaker 1: But we've been kind of waffling about, well, is this okay?

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Speaker 1: That we're actually doing this for a really, really really

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Speaker 1: long time, And didn't just start with the hippies and

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Speaker 1: the seven dies, as your parents might try to tell you, right,

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Speaker 1: and Pythagoras was so tied into this idea of eating

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Speaker 1: a healthy, vegetable based diet that the name of the

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Speaker 1: diet was actually just called a Pythagorean diet. And this

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Speaker 1: especially came about in seventeen forty five, which is when

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Speaker 1: Englishman Robert Dodsley translated Pythagoras's philosophy on vegetarianism into English. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so if you were a vegetarian, they wouldn't call you

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Speaker 1: a vegetarian at the time, they would simply call you

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Speaker 1: a Pythagorean. And vegetarian thought in the West in the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth century was not only influenced by Pythagoras,

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Speaker 1: but was also influenced by contact with India, where vegetarian

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Speaker 1: culture there was considered revolutionary. This idea that there could

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Speaker 1: be this culture where animals were respected and revered and

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Speaker 1: not simply killed and eaten. And there's also a lot

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Speaker 1: of spiritual him too, intertwined with early vegetarianism, as it

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Speaker 1: was often seen as a path toward intellectual enlightenment and

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Speaker 1: social uplift. If you could abstain from meat, if you

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Speaker 1: could exercise that kind of manly will power to do

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Speaker 1: this thing for yourself, then you would be a better human. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh and poet Percy Shelley's mind. This even applied

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Speaker 1: to Napoleon. Yeah, he once said, quote, had Bonaparte descended

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Speaker 1: from a race of vegetable feeders, the Liberator would never

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Speaker 1: have crowned himself emperor because for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about this more a little bit later, there

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Speaker 1: has been this association between the consumption and production of

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Speaker 1: meat and violence and aggressiveness. Um. One of our founding

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Speaker 1: fathers who got super into the no meat thing was

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin. He he tried out this Pythagorean diet. He

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Speaker 1: he actually I started out right with just water and bread. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he felt very stuff Yeah. There was no whole

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Speaker 1: foods at the time, so vegetarian diet was pretty and

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Speaker 1: dense back in his day. But he noticed, you know,

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Speaker 1: nerd alert. He noticed that the less meat he ate,

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Speaker 1: the more money he saved, which meant which meant the

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Speaker 1: more money he could spend on books. Oh man, it's

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Speaker 1: adorable and I love it. But what broke his meat

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Speaker 1: fast was seeing a smaller fish in the belly of

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Speaker 1: a cod that had been caught, and he was like, well, jeez,

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Speaker 1: all right, if y'all are eating each other, then surely

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Speaker 1: you won't mind if I eat you so and then yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then he started eating meat again. But there are

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of figures like Ben Franklin, of

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Speaker 1: these leading intellectuals of this time who, if anything at

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Speaker 1: least dabbled in vegetarianism. It was very I mean it

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Speaker 1: was I don't want to say that it was in vogue,

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Speaker 1: but it was definitely far more in existence than we

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Speaker 1: might realize that it was um today and in pre

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Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution America we ate very little meat. Again, unless

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Speaker 1: you had money, you ate very little meat. And for

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Speaker 1: some reason, Caroline researching for this podcast reminded me so

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Speaker 1: much of Little House on the Prairie, Like when they

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Speaker 1: are out, all they have is the only meat they

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Speaker 1: ever really eat is the salted pork and just mostly

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Speaker 1: salted fat. So it's not like you open up the

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Speaker 1: fridge and like, oh do I want chicken to night

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Speaker 1: or do I want sausage? No meat was mea it

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Speaker 1: was hard to come by. I still just want the

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Speaker 1: salted fat, though, I just want a ball of bacon.

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Speaker 1: That's the perfect thing to say. In our episode on

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Speaker 1: vegetarians and caroline Um culturally sensitive um. Well. So then

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Speaker 1: in eight we finally get the term vegetarian coin with

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Speaker 1: the founding of England's first vegetarian society, and then it

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Speaker 1: really just takes off. Yeah. Around the same time, the

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Speaker 1: US establishes its first vegetarian society as well, the American

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Speaker 1: Vegetarian Society, which was started in eighteen fifty by Sylvester

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Speaker 1: Graham of Cracker fame, and also William Alcott, who was

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Speaker 1: the father of Luisa May Alcott, author of Little Women,

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Speaker 1: and also the co founder I did not know this

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Speaker 1: of fruit Lands, which was America's first vegetarian commune. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: and vegetarianism is getting so popular and getting so many

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Speaker 1: followers followers around this time that by the late nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century we start getting vegetarian cookbooks popping up, so you

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Speaker 1: don't have to be like Benjamin Franklin and just rely

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Speaker 1: on bread and water alone. This is also a key

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Speaker 1: period in the vegetarian movement when Upton Sinclair in six

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Speaker 1: publishes The Jungle, which had a huge effect on both

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Speaker 1: vegetarians people deciding to forego meat, and especially on food

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Speaker 1: reform movements. To that's when we get the pure food

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Speaker 1: and Drug Act and the development of the Food and

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Speaker 1: Drug Administration. Yeah, it was actually in eighteen nine nine

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Speaker 1: four the U. S Department of Agriculture that John Harvey Kellogg,

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Speaker 1: he of corn flake fame, invented a meat substitute called Protos.

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Speaker 1: And Kellogg actually had been working at the Battle Creek

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Speaker 1: Sanitarium where he oversaw from nineteen o five the development

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Speaker 1: of one hundred new health foods, including Protos, which I

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Speaker 1: want to say sort of tastes like peanut butter. It

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Speaker 1: has a nutty flavor. Yeah. Something we read was talking

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Speaker 1: about how many, many, many people have tried to recreate

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Speaker 1: it just based on like flavor, and they've used peanut

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Speaker 1: butter and like onion powder and other things don't stick

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Speaker 1: with tempae and peanut sauce, sawdust and sawdust. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it is it is interesting that at this period

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Speaker 1: there is so much activity and thought going into food,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, food reform, how the food is being produced.

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Speaker 1: This is when you have the era of banting and

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Speaker 1: the banting diet. This is when we first start thinking about, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't eat certain things. How does this affect

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Speaker 1: our health? And vegetarian is m was was relatively hot,

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Speaker 1: and it was also hot with suffragists. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: up until this point, you know, we've talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about the men who were leading the charge in vegetarianism

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Speaker 1: and how a lot of this had to do with

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Speaker 1: your health and what you ate and feeling better during

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Speaker 1: the day because of what you ate. But with suffragists,

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Speaker 1: a lot of suffragists adopting a vegetarian diet, this is

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Speaker 1: when we start to see arise in ethical vegetarianism, deciding

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Speaker 1: consciously not to eat meat because of the way that

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Speaker 1: animals were treated. Yeah, because in addition to the health

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Speaker 1: rationale that a lot of men adopted for going vegetarian,

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Speaker 1: there was also a lot of it was kind of

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Speaker 1: self serving in the sense of like just being a

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Speaker 1: better human being, more enlightened, etcetera. Whereas with stuffer just

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Speaker 1: who were early crusaders in the anti vivisection movement, there

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Speaker 1: was more of a compulsion to not harm the animals

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Speaker 1: as well. And not to say that all the male

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Speaker 1: vegetarians just didn't care about animals either, they were just

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Speaker 1: trying to lose weight or something like that. But there

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Speaker 1: was a very clear tie between this fight for women's

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Speaker 1: rights and not necessarily a fight for animal rights, but

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Speaker 1: rather ending violence and oppression towards animals as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of this is coming from a really

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Speaker 1: interesting essay by Lea Niman from It's called the Awakened

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Speaker 1: Instinct Vegetarianism and the women's suffrage movement in Britain. And

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Speaker 1: not to say that, you know, British stuffer just for

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Speaker 1: the only women who participated, because certainly we had in

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Speaker 1: the American Vegetarian Society women like Susan b Anthony Lucy Stone,

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Speaker 1: and Amelia Bloomer who were attending some of those early meetings.

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Speaker 1: But this essay is a super interesting look at not

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Speaker 1: only just the issue of ethical vegetarianism and how it

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Speaker 1: ties in with the feminist movement and the push for

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Speaker 1: women to be able to vote um, but it also

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Speaker 1: actually brings the whole thing to life. There's plenty of

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Speaker 1: really colorful quotes from these women about why they decided

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Speaker 1: to be vegetarians. One woman, Leonora Cohen, so that even

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Speaker 1: if vegetarianism weren't the best diet, she would stick with

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Speaker 1: it because of humanitarian motives. And there were articles, a

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Speaker 1: lot of articles on vegetarianism published in the eighteen nineties

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Speaker 1: in the radical suffrage journal Shafts that outlined how to

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Speaker 1: the philosophy of you know, kindness towards animal and that

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Speaker 1: moral aspect of it, but it was more about time

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Speaker 1: saving in the kitchen and also again this symbolic connection

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Speaker 1: between handling meat and violence being associated with meat, and

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Speaker 1: these housewives who would be expected to cook the meat,

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Speaker 1: usually for their husbands, because if you could afford meat,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have a lot of income, only could afford

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Speaker 1: a little bit of meat. The meat would go to

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Speaker 1: the men of the household. And these women were saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to handle this stuff, but this is

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Speaker 1: dead flesh and it came to a violent end, and

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Speaker 1: why should I be the one having to touch this

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Speaker 1: meat while my husband? Yeah, I mean exactly. Um, And

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, how, you know, because Chris and

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Speaker 1: I have obviously talked about the suffrage movement on the

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Speaker 1: podcast before, but vegetarianism among these women doesn't really come

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Speaker 1: up so much. But at the time, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was something that a lot of them were talking about,

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Speaker 1: to the point where even back in April of seven,

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Speaker 1: the Vegetarian Society noted quote, it is interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how vegetarianism becomes related to progressive movements. Quite a number

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Speaker 1: of the leaders and the women's suffragist movement are vegetarians.

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Speaker 1: And since this particular paper that we're focusing on also

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Speaker 1: focused on British suffragists who had more militant fringes among

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Speaker 1: them and tended to get tossed in jail, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot more frequently than American suffragists. Um. There are

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Speaker 1: lots of letters of suffragists from jail talking about how

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Speaker 1: they were either marveling at how kindly the guards gave them,

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Speaker 1: you know, vegetarian meals, or how they had to they

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Speaker 1: were being force fed meat or meat related products, um,

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Speaker 1: sort of his punishment if they requested vegetarian food. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was also advice they were writing about, Advice that

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Speaker 1: was floating around about how, hey, now that you're like

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Speaker 1: on our team of suffragists people, um, maybe you should

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Speaker 1: consider a vegetarian lifestyle because you'll get fed way better

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Speaker 1: in prison. And adding another layer to this, you know,

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Speaker 1: you not only have prominent suffragists at the time who

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Speaker 1: were adhering to vegetarian diets and also preaching vegetarianism. In

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Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century, this field of esoterism called theosophy,

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Speaker 1: was also very popular among suffragists, and it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a intersection of mysticism and philosophy, and it overlapped a

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Speaker 1: lot with vegetarianism. So again, this is such a fascinating

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Speaker 1: snapshot of time when you have all of these social

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Speaker 1: movements of foot that are undergirded by a lot of

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Speaker 1: spiritualism and mysticism, not necessarily what you would think of

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Speaker 1: for that time in terms of like straight meeting Protestant people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because women definitely at the time, we're noting the overlap

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Speaker 1: with this whole field of theosophy, sort of like looking

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Speaker 1: at the mysteries of of being and the mysteries of

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Speaker 1: nature and how they have to be the quote voice

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Speaker 1: for the voiceless, the animals, but they're also the voice

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Speaker 1: of the voiceless for themselves too. Yeah. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of them found uplift through theosophy. Um. And it's

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Speaker 1: also notable too that the vegetarian societies at the time

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Speaker 1: also gave voice to these women, which I mean, if

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Speaker 1: if you've listened to our episode a little while back

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Speaker 1: on women in the abolition movement. Women were not always

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Speaker 1: welcome to come and speak openly at gatherings, um, but

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Speaker 1: they were welcome at a lot of vegetarian society gatherings. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: to the point where in nineteen Canadian stuff Are just

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Speaker 1: even opened a vegetarian restaurant at their Toronto headquarters. But

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Speaker 1: there was one one side note to this that Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I both gotta kick out of, because not only

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Speaker 1: were some vegetarian suffragists concerned clearly with what they were

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Speaker 1: putting on the plate for their families to eat, but

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Speaker 1: also what they were putting on their heads. There was

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o nine an article in the Votes for

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Speaker 1: Women journal that alerted female readers to the murderous millinery,

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Speaker 1: essentially calling out women for wearing hats that were very

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Speaker 1: fashionable for the day with bird feathers and other animal

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Speaker 1: parts on them. Are wearing furs. They called it the

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Speaker 1: inhumane and revolting fashion of using beautiful birds for the

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Speaker 1: purpose of personal adornments. Yeah, there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: angry letters flying back and forth about being opposed to

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Speaker 1: wearing fur and feathers and anything like that, and why

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Speaker 1: do you have to keep yourself warm under slain animals,

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Speaker 1: which I think was kind of controversial because some stuffer

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Speaker 1: just were like, hey, listen, I like my my, my

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Speaker 1: feathered chap oh, and we'll keep it bestly and and

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Speaker 1: christ and I I like, I like your imaginary woman's attitude. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it fits well with an attitude that I picked up

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Speaker 1: in In the same essay, UM, there were several women

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Speaker 1: who were discussing in letters and whatnot, the whole theosophy

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Speaker 1: thing and being the voice of the voiceless. But in

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Speaker 1: terms of this um, they were talking about basically the

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Speaker 1: feminization of society. And they know they didn't note at

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Speaker 1: the time that there was a lot of fear among

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Speaker 1: men that society was becoming more feminised, and part of

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Speaker 1: the feminization was vegetarianism, that it was already becoming more

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Speaker 1: associated with women, because oh, you're seating vegetables, whereas I'm

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Speaker 1: a manly man and I eat meat. And so I

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Speaker 1: really what I really appreciated with the attitude of some

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Speaker 1: of these women who were saying, Okay, you think vegetarianism

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Speaker 1: is too feminine. You think that we're feminizing society by

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Speaker 1: pushing for the vote and by pushing for you to

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Speaker 1: eat less meat. Well, you know what, maybe the world

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Speaker 1: will be a better place if the world is more

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Speaker 1: feminized and we do eat less meats. So take that well,

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Speaker 1: and the idea of vegetarian being a feminine thing. It's

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Speaker 1: also revisionist history if you go way on back to Pythagoras,

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Speaker 1: and even I'm sure people before Pythagoras, seems like meet

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Speaker 1: really more than being a gendered thing. What has remained

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Speaker 1: so constant is meet as a symbol of status, because

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Speaker 1: not only did it represent your status socially, if you

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Speaker 1: could afford it for your whole family, then you were

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Speaker 1: doing pretty well. But then even if you were a

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Speaker 1: poor family, the status within the household would be demonstrated

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Speaker 1: by the guy that the guy, the husband, the father,

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Speaker 1: getting the choicest cut of whatever meat there was, and

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Speaker 1: then it trickled down to the wife she essentially, I

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Speaker 1: mean the wives of this time and probably even today

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Speaker 1: to eight whatever was left, you know. So it's just

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Speaker 1: so I wonder if maybe that fear of vegetarianism being

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Speaker 1: a sign of the world becoming more and I's is

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Speaker 1: more rooted in the fear of some you know, status

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Speaker 1: symbol being taken away, then how do you prove your

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Speaker 1: manliness if you don't have your steak in front of you?

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Speaker 1: How are you going to have your pudding? If you

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Speaker 1: don't eat your meat. This is true, you can't have

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Speaker 1: any pudding, Caroline. Well, so we'll talk about sort of

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Speaker 1: the modern advancements in society that lad to actually more

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Speaker 1: meat eating, and then how that ends up tying into

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Speaker 1: masculinity even more when we come right back from a break.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like in the history of vegetarianism when

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Speaker 1: we move into the twentieth century, the Industrial Revolution and

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Speaker 1: advances in transportation and refrigeration technology reigned on the parade

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Speaker 1: a bit because it drove up meat consumption because it

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Speaker 1: made it more available and cheaper for more people. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said a little while ago in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: pre Industrial Revolution, meat eating was still relatively scarce, especially

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Speaker 1: compared to today's meat centric diets that a lot of

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Speaker 1: Americans and people outside of America, UH follow. But then

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Speaker 1: it's like, once we have meat at their ready, we

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Speaker 1: eat it, and vegetarianism falls by the wayside a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that was true especially in the

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Speaker 1: early periods of early period of the century but in

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Speaker 1: there is a bright spot for the veggie community because

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Speaker 1: Donald Watson, with the founding of the Vegan Society, coins

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Speaker 1: the term vegan. And then when you get into the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, we start to see an uptick again in vegetarianism.

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Speaker 1: This is it's sort of cyclical how it comes and goes.

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Speaker 1: And around this time you start seeing more cookbooks, just

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Speaker 1: like we did back when it first became really popular

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Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. You start seeing cookbooks that are

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Speaker 1: addressing the lack of proteins. So you're not just getting

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Speaker 1: like tear dorble meat substitutes and pro toast and whatever

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Speaker 1: are going the Brent Franklin route of bread and water, right,

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Speaker 1: You're actually seeing cookbooks that are finally being like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's how to address your lack of protein, not substitute

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Speaker 1: meet with something weird and gross. And in addition to

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Speaker 1: giving people the tools for cooking and more easily adhering

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Speaker 1: to a vegetarian diet, you also have vegetarianism being stimulated

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Speaker 1: more conceptually as well, particularly with the nineteen seventy one

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Speaker 1: publication of Francis mor La Paz Diet for a Small Planet,

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Speaker 1: which keep in mind in the nineteen seventies, only one

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans or vegetarian. And then in nineteen the

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Speaker 1: animal rights movement launches with the publication of Animal Liberation

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Speaker 1: by Peter Singer. So this is why we often today

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Speaker 1: associate vegetarianism with the seventies. Well, you know, right before

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Speaker 1: of Liberation came out, in nineteen seventy four, the magazine

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Speaker 1: Vegetarian Times launched, which is also the same year that

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Speaker 1: the magazine High Times launched. Lots of social things going

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Speaker 1: on in the nineteen seven Yeah, the seventies was ripe

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Speaker 1: for a vegetarian movement, and we got to get back

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Speaker 1: to feminism as well. In nineteen seventy five, Carol J.

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Speaker 1: Adams publishes an article that makes the first prominent connection

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Speaker 1: between feminism and vegetarianism. So she's bringing back the suffrage

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Speaker 1: thought of by that point yesteryear. And then she publishes

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety where we're skipping forward a bit. But

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Speaker 1: then in she publishes the landmark sexual Politics of Meat

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Speaker 1: that really outlines the history of this connection, in which

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Speaker 1: she also talks about the connections between the suffrage movement

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Speaker 1: and vegetarianism and just for an idea of what she's

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Speaker 1: getting at with sexual politics of meat, in which she

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Speaker 1: really maintains that all oppressions, whether it's oppression toward women,

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Speaker 1: people of color, animals, they're all connected and essentially revolve

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Speaker 1: around white patriarchy. So she says people with power have

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Speaker 1: always eaten meat. Women's second class citizens are more likely

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Speaker 1: to eat what are considered to be second class foods

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Speaker 1: in a patriarchal culture, vegetables, fruits, and grains rather than meat.

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Speaker 1: The sexism in meat eating recapitulates the class distinctions with

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Speaker 1: an added twist mythology permeates all classes. That meat is

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Speaker 1: a masculine food and meat eating a male activity. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: because she talks about as do many other writers out there,

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Speaker 1: talk about the language that surrounds meat and meat eating.

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Speaker 1: And I mean especially today. If you look at magazines,

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Speaker 1: for instance, like Popular Culture, Health Advice, a men magazine

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Speaker 1: is way more likely to be making the Tim Taylor

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Speaker 1: tool time like wolf noise over cooking a hamburger than

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Speaker 1: a woman's magazine. A woman's magazine is gonna what tell

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Speaker 1: you to go eat a salad and a lean chicken

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Speaker 1: breast at most well, and it's the whole distinction between

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Speaker 1: women cook then grill. They grilled their meats. And if

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Speaker 1: you even this is something that Adams focuses on a

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Speaker 1: lot as well, is how that language that we often

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Speaker 1: apply to the descriptions of meat, how we eat meat,

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Speaker 1: how it tastes, is also often applied in sexist terms

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Speaker 1: to women's bodies. Right, we're we're juicy pieces of meat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I mean it's it's I think the well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think, I know. And Adams points out that, um,

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Speaker 1: just the idea, the idea of not eating meat is

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Speaker 1: like threatening to certain perceptions of masculinity. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are so many men, especially in sterious, stereotypical pop culture,

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Speaker 1: who you know, it's not a real meal if you

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Speaker 1: don't have meat. Just before I came into the studio,

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Speaker 1: was talking with dude roommate about this topic and when

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Speaker 1: I said that we were talking about how meat and

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Speaker 1: meat eating and grilling and cooking is still aligned with masculinity.

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Speaker 1: He was like, yeah, real men, you know that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Well, there is I mean, some might say, well,

426
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: there's the science to it. There's a fact that men

427
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: have more muscle mass and we need the animal protein

428
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: to bulk up in that way. So there are excuses

429
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: that get thrown out, but it's a lot more telling

430
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: when you consider the whole social status aspect, at least

431
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: in my reading of our sources for this, where of course,

432
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: eating meat is a manly thing because since the dawn

433
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: of time, since the dawn of grilling meats, it has

434
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: been it's been a source of status. Yeah, and so

435
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: many studies that we looked at pointed out that men

436
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: are much more likely to say that meat eating is fine,

437
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: it's good. Um. They don't care so much about how

438
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: the animal is gotten, how the animal flesh is procured,

439
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: whereas women are not only more likely to say that

440
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: they eat less meat, and they're also way more likely

441
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: to feel guilty about the meat that they do eat. Yeah.

442
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: There was a study by Hank Rothburger that came out

443
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve, and I think he's since done

444
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: a follow up study on this too. And I just

445
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: want to read the study title of this, because it's

446
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: one of the best study titles I've seen in a

447
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: long time. It's called real Men Don't Eat Vegetable Quiche,

448
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: Masculinity and the Justification of Meat consumption, And it was

449
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: a small study among a group of per usual undergraduate

450
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: students almost exclusively white. So grain of salt there, but

451
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: it did confirm this connection between just our ideology of

452
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: masculinity and meat, and the more that the guys in

453
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: the study identified with a different scales of masculinity than

454
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: the likelier they were to really espouse meat eatings. And

455
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: in the follow up study that he did, he was

456
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: looking at whether women even lie about how little meat

457
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: they eat, because we now have it so divided, like

458
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: we know that meat limited diet is healthier for us

459
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: than a meat heavy diet at this point, and so

460
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: many women's magazines these days too, are so like vege friendly.

461
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: It was just fine, but that he thinks some women

462
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: actually you're like, oh no, they distanced themselves, right, But

463
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: that ties back into the whole ethical vegetarian is something

464
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: because in looking at the levels the amount of meat

465
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: that men and women say they eat, uh, they basically

466
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: tested this by saying, hey, could you answer this questionnaire

467
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: right before we show you this video from EATA about

468
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: how animals are abused and uh tortured before they are

469
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: turned into the meat on your table. And so then

470
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: the questions were about how much meat you eat, So

471
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: they were being primed with this idea that you're about

472
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: to see something horrific about how animals are slaughtered. The

473
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: men the control group, and then the men who were

474
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: told they were going to watch the video, it was stable,

475
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: basically stable the amount of meat that they reported that

476
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: they would eat on a regular basis. But the women

477
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: who were told primed by saying you're going to be

478
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: watching this horrific video, you awful meat eat person, you

479
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: they reported eating so much less meat because they felt guilty.

480
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Well. Side note though, on PETA and women,

481
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: they are a constant offender when it comes to they're

482
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: overtly sexist advertising, which completely plays into exactly what Carol J.

483
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: Adams is talking about in terms of the descriptions of

484
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: meat being used in the descriptions of women's bodies. Because

485
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: most our listeners are probably I've probably seen one of

486
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: these ads where women naked usually are pretending to be

487
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: meet in some kind of way, and there was even

488
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: a Super Bowl ad. I believe that NBC said no,

489
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: we're not going to show that because it was kind

490
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: of trying to cheekly debunk the idea that if you're

491
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: a vegan guy, then you're gonna lose putency in the bedroom.

492
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: So the whole ad was showing this woman who was

493
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: in like a neck brace and looking like she had

494
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: been beaten up because her vegan boyfriend was such a

495
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, rock star now and apparently violent in the

496
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: bedroom because you'd gotten rid of meat that she got

497
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: all beat up in the process. It's like, what why

498
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: are you doing this, Peter, very very kind of questionable

499
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: marketing strategies in terms of like, you know, Devil's Advocate.

500
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: I see what they're doing, right, They're counteracting the deeply

501
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: entrenched cultural idea that to be a true masculine man

502
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: that involves eating bacon every day and a steak every

503
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: night and objectifying women, right, and and so they're trying

504
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, no, look, you can still get

505
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: a sexy woman over here. Look at how she's naked

506
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 1: because she doesn't want you to wear fur and stuff like,

507
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: you can still get that sexy woman if you're vegan. Yeah,

508
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: it's just uh to me, it goes about it in

509
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: the totally wrong way to where I would find it

510
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: really challenging to be uh an ethical vegetarian feminist and

511
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: also be like, yeah, Peter, I want to give my

512
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: money to you because some of that money is going

513
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: to go to marketing. Yeah, no, not so not so

514
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: I'm bored about that. But we do need to acknowledge

515
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: that when it comes to vegetarianism, and maybe even more

516
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: so veganism today because it's become more popularized than ever before.

517
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: While there are so many who do it for ethical

518
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: reasons they are ethical vegetarians, there is also this other

519
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: side to it where vegetarianism and veganism sometimes get intertwined

520
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: with disordered eating. And sure, there definitely is a connection

521
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of people between just plainal health, being healthy,

522
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: and being a vegetarian, which is great. Yeah, and so

523
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: there was a one study that showed that more than

524
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: just over half of Americans who are vegetarian say that

525
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: they are so because of animal welfare reasons and to

526
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: improve their health. Just under half site weight loss and

527
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: environmental concerns. So that health and weight loss thing definitely

528
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: is an aspect of certain vegetarians decisions to to participate

529
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: in that lifestyle. But like Kristen said, there's like also

530
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: this darker stereotype of vegetarianism just being an excuse to

531
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: solely lose weight and nothing else right, And it is

532
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: worth addressing because there was a two thousand twelve study

533
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: published in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and

534
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: Dietetics which found that women suffering from eating disorders are

535
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: four times likelier to be vegetarian than women without eating disorders.

536
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: And on top of that, there was a research project

537
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: out of the University of Minnesota that looked at eating

538
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: and weight related behaviors and adolescence among thirty one Minneapolis schools,

539
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: and of the six percent of students who reported being

540
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 1: vegetariantent did so to lose weight, and of those who

541
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: did so to lose weight, they were likelier to be

542
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: involved in or to use I should say a series

543
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: of unhealthy weight control behaviors. Now, now that we've cited that,

544
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: we should definitely say vegetarianism. We're not saying it all

545
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: the vegetarianism causes eating disorders or becoming a vegetarian makes

546
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: you think about food in a disorder way. It's the opposite.

547
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 1: It's that some people who already have a disordered relationship

548
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: with food end up pursuing vegetarianism for slightly different reasons.

549
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: And we don't want to sensationalize these study findings because

550
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: by the same token, there is this trope that you

551
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: see a lot, at least that I've noticed a lot

552
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: on the screen of the teenage vegetarian girl who's a

553
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: bit of a pest and her parents always poop poo,

554
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: the fact that she won't eat the meat that the

555
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: mom's cooking, and no, she'll grow out of it one day,

556
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: and their vegetarian concerns are often trivialized. But I think

557
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: it's also important too to remember that vegetarianism veganism should

558
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: still be a part of a healthy diet. There's still

559
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: an unhealthy in other words, way to be vegetarian and vegan, right,

560
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: because I mean, if we're talking about health and being

561
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: a vegetarian. Some studies have found core relations between low fat,

562
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: vegetarian or vegan diets and altered menstrual cycles. But there

563
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: are so many different lifestyle factors that complain into that.

564
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: You might be an extreme athlete, you might have a

565
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: lot of stress in your life that could contribute to

566
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 1: irregular periods. Yeah, I mean essentially all of the studdy.

567
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: There have been a number of studies actually on menstrual

568
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: cycles and vegetarian diets, looking at things like soy. If

569
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: you're eating a bunch of soy and getting those estrogen

570
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: like compounds in your body, whether that's going to throw

571
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: things off. Um, but it's almost so challenging to completely

572
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 1: isolate the impact of a healthy, balanced vegetarian diet that really,

573
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: as long as it's exactly that a healthy, balanced vegetarian diet,

574
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: you should be fine and your periods should be as

575
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: normal as periods really are. Which what is that? Well, yeah, exactly,

576
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: And I mean I think there's obviously a difference between

577
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: someone who is quote unquote vegetarian and just eats like

578
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: Derrito's all day and somebody who actually is pursuing uh

579
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: doritos and protas, or or someone who is actually going,

580
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: you know, making sure that they are pursuing a healthy

581
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: lifestyle that includes exercise, it includes enough protein and vitamins

582
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: and minerals and things like that. Yeah. But what is

583
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: not worthwhile at all that that I noticed online just

584
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: in the process of researching for this episode, are these

585
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: back and forth kind of just jabs made at vegetarian

586
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: women as caring too much. Go eat some bacon already,

587
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: Go eat a hamburger. You know that. That's why don't

588
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: vegetarian shame someone. If that's what you want to eat

589
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: and you're healthy about it, what's wrong with that? It's

590
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: healthier than me eating a bacon sandwich. Bacon? Is that

591
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: just bacon between two bacon's. I was thinking like a

592
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: b LT, but with heavier on the b. I was

593
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: just thinking bacon's lots of bacons. There's there's a lot

594
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: of room for interpreting and that, but you know it

595
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: is also good? Is uh t LT with some tempe

596
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: bacon interesting? I'd be happened. I'd be open to it

597
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: anytime you want to make that for me Christmas and

598
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: some vegan Manni's good girl. Well, vegetarian listeners, now it's

599
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 1: time to hear from you. What are all your thoughts

600
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: on all of this mom stuff? At House Stuffworks dot

601
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: Com is where you can reach us. You can also

602
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook.

603
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: And Caroline, do you do you have any questions for

604
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: our vegetarian listeners? Well, first of all, I'd like to

605
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: apologize for the number of times I just said bacon,

606
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: But no, I I want to know how many ethical

607
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: vegetarians we have out there versus maybe health related. I know,

608
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 1: I know people who have chosen vegetarian lifestyle for both reasons. Um,

609
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: but I also want to know what kind of flak

610
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 1: you've caught. I feel like vegetarians can't catch a break

611
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: from people who are so judge. Yeah, yeah, we're I mean,

612
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: we're living in a very bacon centric world right now.

613
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: Let's be honest, So let us know your thoughts again, Mom,

614
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: seven House, stepworks dot com is our email address, or

615
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: tweet us, Facebook us, just get in touch, and we've

616
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: got a couple of letters to share with you right now.

617
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from romy and subject

618
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: line pronunciation of Japanese words. She writes, Hey, ladies, great

619
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: podcast is always I was listening to your podcast on

620
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: cosplay and I have just one little tiff. You guys

621
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: are totally mispronouncing the word, which is spelled k A

622
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: w A I I. The way you're pronouncing it makes

623
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: it sound like kauai, which means scary or fear. I

624
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: understand that you are not Japanese speakers, but as a

625
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: Japanese woman, it makes me cringe every time I hear

626
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: the word being mispronounced, although it's kind of funny that

627
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: the way you guys say it makes it sound like kauai,

628
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: which means scary. She says, thank you again for the

629
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: great podcast and keep up the good work. So Romy,

630
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: here you have it me pronouncing kawaite, am I saying

631
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: it correctly. Let's hope, So thanks Romi. Okay, I have

632
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: a letter here from Kathleen who has something very good

633
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: to point out. Um, she says. First of all, I've

634
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: been listening to your podcast for a while now and

635
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: I thoroughly enjoy it, So thank you, Kathleen. She says,

636
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: I just have a quick question for you. I just

637
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 1: listen to your most recent podcast on late night TV

638
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: and the lack of female hosts and writers. You mentioned

639
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: women that hosted late night shows Joan Rivers, will be Goldberg,

640
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler, but I don't think you mentioned the comedian Monique.

641
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: I believe she had a late night show, although it

642
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: was short lived around two thousand nine or so on

643
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: b et. If you did mention her, I apologize. There

644
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: have been so few women hosting late night talk shows.

645
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure I'll receive some mention.

646
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: Please don't apologize, Kathleen, we owe you and our listeners

647
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: and apology. We did not mention Monique, and so Monique,

648
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: we we owe you an apology as well. Yeah, yeah,

649
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: so they're at another one. One more to the still

650
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: very short list of women who opposed You could basically

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00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: fit them all into one office cubicle. Still, so that's

652
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: unfortunate for women, but but thank you for adding Monique

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00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: to the lift. Indeed, and speaking of letters about our

654
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: late night episode, one of our listeners wrote in to

655
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: recommend Pete Holmes, who had a late night show. He

656
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: doesn't anymore, but apparently he has a hilarious podcast called

657
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: You Made It Weird that she really likes, and she

658
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: said she might even describe him as feminist. So if

659
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: you're looking for a new podcast to try out, Pete

660
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: Holmes is You Made It Weird has been recommended by

661
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You listener, So if you have

662
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: any recommendations, vegetarian thoughts, all of those things, you can

663
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: send them to us at stuff Mom Never Told You

664
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com and if you want

665
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: to find links to all of our social media's as

666
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, which

667
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: included our sources so that you can follow along with us.

668
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: There's one place to go, and it's Stuff Mom Never

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00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: told you dot com. For more on this and thousands

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00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: of other topics, does it, How stuff works dot com