1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. In the New Space Race, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: what will happen when human ambition outpaces government regulation? Which 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: country will win the race back to the Moon and beyond. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: A fleet of powerful new rockets is poised to take 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: humans into space, and the world's two richest men have 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: engaged in escalating brinthmanship. Space is under a golden age 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: and this is just the beginning. In his new book, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: Rocket Dreams, Mosque Bezos and the Inside Story of the 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: New Trillion Dollar Space Race, award winning Washington Post reporter 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Christian Davenport details the plans that will shape humanities off 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: planet future. I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, somebody 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: that I really admire, Christian Davenport. He's a staff writer 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: at the Worshton Post covering NASA and the space industry, 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and the author of The Space Barons, which is a 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: terrific book. He's been on reporting teams, there were finalists 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: for the Pollster Prize three times, and his recipient of 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: an Emmy Award for his work on the Discovery and 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: Science channels covering SpaceX's first human space flight mission. Chris, 19 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for joining me the News World. 20 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: Oh Thanks so much for having me. It's such a treat. 21 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Your book opens with SpaceX launching the Starship on October thirteenth, 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, which you stated was a daring feat 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: that had never been accomplished or even attempted. Why was 24 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: this launched such a breakthrough? 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 2: Well, Starship itself represents a breakthrough. I mean just how 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: big it is, the amount of mass it could be 27 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: capable of taking to orbit just on the first stage alone, 28 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: has thirty three engines, and what it represents is a 29 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: fully reusable vehicle, both the first and the second stage, 30 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: the second stage, of course, being the spacecraft. And this 31 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: is the vehicle that NASA is investing several billion dollars 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: into to return astronauts to the lunar surface. So every 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: time it launches it's almost a must see TV event. 34 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: It's really quite extraordinary. 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: I know this is sort of a SpaceX tradition, and 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: they went through a fair amount of experimentation in getting 37 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: to what's now a remarkably reliable workhourse, the Falcon nine. 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: I've been a little surprised that I think they've now 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: had ten launches and it's still haven't quite got it 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: down to a point of kind of reliable usage. Are 41 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: you confident that they will presently get there. 42 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: I'm confident they'll get there eventually. The problem is that 43 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 2: you mentioned at the beginning we're in a space race. 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: We're in a space race with China. They vow to 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 2: get astronauts to the surface of the Moon by twenty thirty. 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: It's a big question whether SpaceX is going to be 47 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: ready with starship. This is supposed to be the vehicle 48 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: that NASA wants to use to get our astronauts there. 49 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: It needs to be refueled in Earth orbit for that 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: to happen. That means they've got to launch we don't 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: know how many, but many many starships for that to happen. 52 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: This is a technology that's never been accomplished before refueling 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: a spacecraft in orbit. They've also got to develop all 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: of the human life support systems for to transport astronauts. 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: So SpaceX has a lot to do on their to 56 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 2: do lists in order to make this really operational vehicle. 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: And by that I'm talking about getting astronauts to the 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: lunar surface. It's entirely possible they'll be using it to 59 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: launch starlinks and other things. Well, before then, and they'll 60 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: use that experience to build on getting astronauts to the Moon. 61 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 2: But that's the most important task that I see for them, 62 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: is to fly astronauts and fly into the Moon. 63 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: I think Trexas has now issued a license to SpaceX 64 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: to have I think it's forty six Starship launches in 65 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: Texas alone. That'll be extraordinary. 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, And not only that, but they're building out their 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: capability for Starship at Cape Canaveral as well. They're going 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: to need to be launching, probably from both coasts in 69 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: order to meet that mandate. You know, Elon Musk and 70 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: Gwen Shotwell, the president of SpaceX, have talked about a 71 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: time when they're launching four hundred times per year, just 72 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: as frequent as air travel, which is the reason why 73 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: they want to catch it and bring it back to 74 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: its launch site as opposed to as a Falcon nine. 75 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: It is a reusable rocket, but it lands on a 76 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: ship at sea or at another launch pad. Elon doesn't 77 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: want that. He wants to bring it right back to 78 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: the launch pad, refuel it, and then send it up again. 79 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 2: As he said, you know, with Starship, you want to 80 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 2: be looking at your watch, not your calendar. 81 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: If they were to get to four hundred launches a year, 82 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: the amount of material they'd be putting into space would 83 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: be just astonishing. 84 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because we look at it and think 85 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: about NASA, But the Pentagon is also really interested in Starship. 86 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: I've talked to generals about having a spacecraft up in 87 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: orbit that's just circling the Earth that could have supply 88 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: on it for say, tsunami relief, for a hurricane relief, 89 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: and then you need those supplies and you just diorbit 90 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: the spacecraft to where you need it to go. But 91 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: also it's so big. I mean when we launched the 92 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: James Web Space Telescope and it went on an Arian rocket, 93 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: the telescope itself had to be folded up like a 94 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: piece of origami so that it would fit inside the 95 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 2: rocket's nose cone. And then when it was released in orbit, 96 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: it had to unfold itself and there were two hundred 97 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: or more potential points of failure because of that. Well, 98 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: with Starship, you don't have to fold it up. It's 99 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 2: so big. You can put out these huge telescopes without 100 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: any of those concerns. 101 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: But you also make the point that the Chinese are 102 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: taking this very seriously. How close do you think they 103 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: are to heading the equivalent of Starship. 104 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: Well, they are right now, and Pentagon leaders were talking 105 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: about that just recently, working feverishly to get reusable rockets. 106 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: They've seen the path that was forged by SpaceX and 107 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: they are copying it, and they are moving quickly to 108 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: build not just big heavy lift rockets that can lift 109 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: a lot of mass to orbit and to the Moon, 110 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: but to have rockets that are reusable. That drives down 111 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: the cost. And they are harnessing their commercial industry. They 112 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: are allowing investment into commercial industry, and they're trying very 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: hard and moving very fast to compete with the United 114 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: States commerce and with the United States government in space. 115 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: You make the point that assembling the original International Space 116 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: Station took forty two rocket launches and with Starship you 117 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: could do it in five. So you're talking about a 118 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: revolutionary breakthrough and our ability to get things done. 119 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could absolutely be a game changer, and that's 120 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: what Elon Musk and SpaceX have been working toward. You know, 121 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: a rocket like this has never really even been thought 122 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: of before. That said, for it to really reach its potential, 123 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: which I believe it will eventually do. Because SpaceX ultimately 124 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: ends up pulling off all these near impossible quests. They 125 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: still have a lot to do, and the orbital refueling 126 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: is a huge hurdle, and it's going to require a 127 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: lot of launches and a lot of new technology because, 128 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: as you know, to store propellant rocket propellant in space, 129 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: it's so cold it automatically boils off, and to be 130 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 2: able to do that is no small feet. 131 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: I'm actually very proud of the affected. Many years ago, 132 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: Bob Walker and I actually got four hundred million dollars 133 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: for NASA to build a reusable rocket, and they hired 134 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: Lockey Martin who couldn't do it. And then about ten 135 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: years later, Elon Musk comes along and it had exactly 136 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: the fact we thought it would. I think they've taken 137 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: ninety percent out of the cost of putting a pound 138 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: into space with the first generation of SpaceX. The impact 139 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: of the Starship will be even dramatically bigger, both in 140 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: terms of costs and in terms of volume. 141 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you see now they're launching Falcon nine once 142 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: every two days. The launch rate is remarkable, and when 143 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: you talk about reusability, they were hoping I think in 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: the early days, if they could reuse a booster ten times, 145 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: and I remember being in the factor in Cape Canaveral 146 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: one of the times I interviewed Elon and there were 147 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: three or four boosters, all charred and study that had 148 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: been to space and come back just in there being refurbished, 149 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: getting ready to fly again. And then they did fifteen launches, 150 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: now twenty. I mean they're continue to push the envelope 151 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: for reusability, and Starship for a lot of reasons, could 152 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: actually top that. Because it's going to use methane as 153 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: it's fuel, it burns cleaner. I think there's less wear 154 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: and tear on the engines, it should fly more efficiently. 155 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: So that whole idea where you launch the space fly 156 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: back land on the launchpad refuel seems in theory like 157 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 2: it actually could be achieved. 158 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: I've never quite understood in this particular space race, and 159 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: we're clearly at the moment SpaceX is well ahead. What 160 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: does Jeff Bezos thinking is and why Blue Origin has 161 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: evolved the way it has. How would you explain that? Well? 162 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: I think it's thinking frankly changed over time. I think 163 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 2: early on he wanted to be very slow and steady, 164 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: and he founded Blue Origin actually two years before Elon 165 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: founded SpaceX. He founded it as a think tank to 166 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: sort of think about what are the best ways to 167 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: get to space, and they came up with a lot 168 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: of different ideas, but ultimately decided on reusable rockets. But 169 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: then he sat out some of the early NASA and 170 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: Pentagon contract procurements, where SpaceX went all in on those 171 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: and SpaceX won the contract to fly cargo and supplies 172 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: to the International Space Station. SpaceX won the contract from 173 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: NASA to fly NASA's astronauts to the International Space Station. 174 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: It now is a huge partner with the Pentagon. And 175 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: I think somewhere along the way in about twenty sixteen, 176 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: and I document this in the book, Jeff turned around 177 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: and said, you know what, we need to be competing 178 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: for these things. We've sat it out for too long. 179 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: We need to go after everything SpaceX goes on. But 180 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 2: by then it had built this huge lead and it 181 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: was so far ahead, and Jeff was working at Blue 182 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: Origin one day a week. And in recent years you 183 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 2: see they've had for the first time a CEO and 184 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: Bob Smith, and that didn't quite work out, and now 185 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: they have a new CEO and Dave Limp, but they're 186 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: playing catch up. But I do think that now he's 187 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: really dedicated to the proposition of trying to compete with 188 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: SpaceX and make Blue Origin a viable force in the industry. 189 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: Is there a third competitor? 190 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: There are several other ones not quite on par with this, 191 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: and I can tell you that NASA and the Pentagon 192 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: are eager to have more people out there. So you've 193 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: got rocket Lab, which is developing its medium to heavy 194 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 2: lift rocket Neutron. It's been flying a smaller rocket electron 195 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: with great success and with some frequency. I have a 196 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: lot of faith, as do a lot of people in 197 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: a company called Stoke Space, which is founded by Blue 198 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: Origin alums, again focused on reusability and rapid launch cases. 199 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: They seem to be coming out relativity. Now you see 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: that they seem to be headed nowhere. But Eric Schmidt 201 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: of Google fame came in and invested with them. And 202 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: the interesting thing too is that you're seeing not just 203 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: a focus on the rockets, but the commercial space industry 204 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 2: has expanded to rovers, commercial habitats and space stations, space suits, 205 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: mining technologies, all sorts of things, not just the transportation 206 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: but once we get to space, once we get to 207 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: the destination, you're seeing people start to think about that, 208 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: what is the infrastructure we're going to need and what 209 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: are the technologies we're going to need once we get there. 210 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: I know you've reported that some analysts think this could 211 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: be like a trillion dollars a year by the middle 212 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: of the twenty thirties. 213 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I put it in the title. 214 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: It's certainly catchy. I think, you know, the Space Foundation 215 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: has a report that at six hundred and thirteen billion 216 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: dollars today. But you look at SpaceX's valuation alone. You 217 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: look at what STARLENGK, their Internet satellite constellation, has done 218 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 2: something more than seven thousand satellites beaming the Internet down 219 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: to ground stations. Amazon has vowed to invest ten billion 220 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: dollars into its Kuiper network, which is just now getting 221 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: off the ground, new rockets coming online. It doesn't seem 222 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: like it's beyond the pale. 223 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: We've also made a point that I think is fascinating. 224 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: But when we first got into a space race, who 225 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: was with the civic union and it was binary. It 226 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: was the US and SIVI Union. Now, not only are 227 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: we competing with China, but there are all sorts of 228 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: countries begin to move into space in a way that 229 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: is almost frankly, for people in my generation, it's almost startling. 230 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about just the sheer 231 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: number of countries that are now out there working in space. 232 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are two big teams, one led by the 233 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: United States, the other team is led by China. And 234 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: on that team of countries like Russia and North Korea 235 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: otherwise are potential adversaries. We have on our side, the 236 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 2: United States the Artemis Accords have signed up something like 237 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: thirty five to forty allied countries that are participating in 238 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: our program. And I keep thinking about what Scott Pace 239 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: said to me once, and he was the head of 240 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: the National Space Council under President Trump's first term. He said, 241 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, the Artemis program of returning to the Moon 242 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: is a civil program. It is not a military program. 243 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: That said, it is very much a national security program. 244 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: It is in the interests of the United States to 245 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: build those diplomatic ties. If China beats us there, you know, 246 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: those countries that maybe are sitting on the fences, a 247 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: lot of people fear may go to them. You know, 248 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: if we win, then they'll come to us. And there's 249 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: some really high stakes in the geopolitical arena for that. 250 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: You actually quote me, and I don't often do a 251 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: podcast like this, and a memo I sent to the administration 252 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: in their first term about really developing a race that 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: the government would fund but would really rely heavily on 254 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: private sector folks. So I'll tell you, in the same 255 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: cheerful spirit, I'm presently writing a memo suggesting that we 256 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: debureaucratize NASA, that we literally do it in a sense 257 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: we're seeing happen at the Environmental Protection Agency and other agencies. 258 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: Looking at the notion that it's been over sixty years 259 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: since John F. Kennedy challenged us to go to the Moon, 260 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: and in six decades, any bureaucracy develops patterns and regulations 261 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: and mistake avoidance devices that become really cumbersome. A leaner, 262 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: less bureaucratic, more risk taking NASA would dramatically improve our 263 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: likelihood of succeeding against China as a competitor. I don't 264 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: know what your thoughts are because you've covered this so decisively, 265 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: but since you quoted one of my memos from the 266 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: last Trump administration, I'll send you later on a copy 267 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: of the new memo on rethinking NASA. 268 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. And it's one thing too that 269 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: Jared Isaacman, who was President Trump's initial pick anyway to 270 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: lead NASA in the second term. One of the things 271 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: he pointed out was that bureaucracy and the fact that 272 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: it's so top heavy, and you've got all these program 273 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: managers and each one of them has a deputy, and 274 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: each one of them as an aide and a chief 275 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: of staff and a public affairs person. And he took 276 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: a look at the ORG chart and was like, this 277 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: could be trimmed down a lot because there's a lot 278 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: of staff and help and support of other staff as 279 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 2: opposed to, as he said, you know, looking at the 280 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: problems and solving the engineering issues and focusing on the mission. 281 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm curious you do spend some time on China. How 282 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: formidable do you think their program is? 283 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: Everything they've done, they've accomplished, and what's amazing, they've done 284 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: it pretty close to the timeline that they've said they 285 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: were going to do it, and you need to look 286 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: no further about their ambitions to what they've done. But 287 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: when you talk about the moon I mean, one of 288 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: the things in the research for this book that startled 289 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: me frankly is looking at what they've done in terms 290 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: of the symbolism of their goal. So there are two 291 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: flags really that are on the Moon right now. All 292 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: of the flags planted by the Apollo astronauts have been 293 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: bleached white by the sun. Buzz Aldron actually wrote in 294 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: his memoir that the flag that he and Neil Armstrong 295 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: saluted and planted on the lunar surface was knocked over 296 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: by the thrust of their ascent vehicle as they left, 297 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: but regardless, it would have been torn to tatters by 298 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: the harsh environment of space. China when it went to 299 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: the Moon, it then built a flag made of composite 300 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: materials designed to last for decades on the surface of 301 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: the Moon. And their last lunar mission just this past summer, 302 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: when they went to the far side of the Moon 303 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: and brought back a sample, which by the way, no 304 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: country has ever done, no country beside China has been 305 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: to the far side. And then they not only did 306 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: that but brought a sample back. On that mission, they 307 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: unfurled a flag that was made out of basalt, essentiallyvolcanic rock, 308 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: and this was volcanic rock that they got from Earth. 309 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: But the symbolism of that is that there's plenty of 310 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: bus salts on the surface of the Moon and they 311 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: wanted to show that they could use the resources of 312 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: the Moon to manufacture things while they're on the Moon. 313 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: So it's like when you think of the American settlers 314 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: going west. They had game to hunt so they could eat. 315 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: There were trees and woods so they could build shelter. 316 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: There were streams, they had water to drink. And China's 317 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: showing us that they can use the resources of the 318 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: Moon to create a presence there. And they took the basalt, 319 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: turned it into lava. From the lava, extracted threads one 320 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 2: third the diameter of a human hair, and from that 321 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: they wove a Chinese flag that is now on the 322 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 2: lunar surface. And oh, by the way, it's in the 323 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: vicinity of the South Pole, which is also where NASA 324 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: wants to go. And I see no bigger symbolism of 325 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: their intentions than. 326 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: That of all that was done with robotics. 327 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so they did it on Earth and then 328 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 2: brought it up there. But they're showing but it's a 329 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: technology demonstration. 330 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: Do you think in the long run that we double 331 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: or triple down on the Space launch system, or are 332 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: hopesually writing on Elon musk efforts with the Starship, I. 333 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: Think in the long run, and it's got to be Starship. 334 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: I mean the Space Launch System. I think a lot 335 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: of people think it's good for the short term, but 336 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: the costs are enormous. I think on the order of 337 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 2: two billion dollars a launch. It relies on nineteen seventies technology. 338 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: I mean, it literally uses the engines that flew on 339 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: the Space Shuttle. They've been upgraded, of course, but you 340 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: know we're talking about old technology. It's not reusable at all, 341 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: no part of it. It gets fully a dumped into 342 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: the Atlantic Ocean. And I think if Elon and SpaceX 343 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: can make Starship work, and if Blue Origin can make 344 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: New Glen work, that's their big orbital rocket, which is 345 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 2: designed to be reusable, then you've got some real options 346 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: there that I think can fly much more frequently and 347 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: at much lower cost. I mean also part of the 348 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: Space launch System, it's designed to launch like what once 349 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: every two years or so. I mean, if you want 350 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: to create a lunar economy, a lunar basis is not 351 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: frequent enough. 352 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: I think the space Launch system is sort of the 353 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: last stand of the old order and the last stand 354 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: of the big lobbyist heavy private sector of bureaucracies that 355 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: match the cumbers of missive government bureaucracies. Just remarkably different 356 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: models from the SpaceX Blue origins model. Let me ask 357 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: for a second about the new Berlind because I really 358 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: don't understand this. How does it compare with Starship? 359 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: Well, it's not nearly as big, but it represents for 360 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: a first orbital vehicle, I mean, a real step forward. 361 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: It's bigger and more powerful than the Falcon nine, for example, 362 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: and it was successful in January on its very first launch. 363 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: They did attempt to land it. They weren't successful, you know, 364 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: with the landing and the reuse, but they're going to 365 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: try again, perhaps this year. They said initially after the 366 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: first launch they were going to try in the spring, 367 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: but you know, these things always take much longer, particularly. 368 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: With a new vehicle. 369 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: But if they were able to do that, it would 370 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 2: be significant. It's not on the order of Starship though, 371 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 2: but it does represent a pretty big step forward. 372 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: One the things you've mentioned it's kind of fascinating is 373 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: that the Moon could become kind of a gas station 374 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: for deep space exploration. What do you mean by that? 375 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: In what way is the Moon usable as a resource base? 376 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: Well, the Moon that we're going to in the Artemis 377 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: program is in some ways not the moon we went 378 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: to during Apollo. We had thought for years that the 379 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: Moon was dry and cold and dead, and we know 380 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: it's not dry. It's wet. There's a fair amount of 381 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: water in the form of ice in the permanently shadowed 382 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: craters at the poles, and that is significant because water 383 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: is not only vital to sustain human life, but its 384 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: component parts hydrogen and ox is rocket fuel. And there 385 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 2: you have it right there on the Moon, and if 386 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: you are able to access it, mine it, extract it, 387 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: separate the hydrogen and the oxygen. You've got oxygen to breathe, 388 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: by the way, but you've also got rocket fuel. You 389 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: are already two hundred and forty thousand miles away from Earth, 390 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: and you could be taking off from a surface with 391 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 2: a much smaller gravity. Well, so I think people look 392 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: at that and see the Moon as the next logical 393 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: step because of exactly those reasons. 394 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: As I understand it, Mosque is sort of addicted to 395 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: somehow taking something like starship and going straight to Mars. 396 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 2: Yes, he does not believe in needing starship to be 397 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: refueled on the Moon, but it does need to be 398 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 2: refueled in lower th orbit, so he is going to 399 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: have to stop somewhere. I think a lot of people 400 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: think it just makes the next logical step. Right, you 401 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: go suborbital, then you get to orbit. You have test 402 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: humans living in lower th orbit in the International Space Station. 403 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 2: We've done that. Now you build a permanent presence on 404 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: and around the Moon. Something goes wrong, you can get 405 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: back in a couple of days, and that helps you 406 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 2: extend on to Mars. I think in that there's a 407 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: lot of bits we do the Moon or Mars. I 408 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: think the people who are smart about it say, well, 409 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: we should do the Moon and Mars and learn from 410 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: one as a stepping stone to the other. 411 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: Do you see Mars also in a sense becoming a 412 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: gas station for being able to come back to Earth. 413 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: Those of you. You get a starship to Mars, you 414 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: then have to figure out a way to get. 415 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: It back here, that's right, and then use the methane 416 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: from there. Ultimately, if you're talking about Mars and getting there. 417 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 2: The answer I think has to be nuclear propulsion, because 418 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: if you're taking nine months to get there just the 419 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: way as you well know, you can only go to Mars. 420 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: You have that window once every twenty six months when 421 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: Earth and Mars are on the same side of the Sun. 422 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: By the time you get there, you're going to have 423 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: to hang out for a couple of years before you 424 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 2: can even come back. It's a long time Mars is. 425 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 2: If someone once said to me, you have the perfect 426 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: Mars mission. Everything goes right entry to send landing, seven 427 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: minutes of terror, it's a triumphant moment in the history 428 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: of humanity. You're on Mars. Only then are you in 429 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: just absolute crisis mode even if it went perfectly. That's 430 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: how dangerous Mars is. 431 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: Look. I've shifted a lot of my energy towards getting 432 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: a nuclear propulsion in space because it strikes me not 433 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: only does it get you there much much faster, but 434 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: also it eliminates the window you can actually go from 435 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: Earth to Mars anytime if you have nuclear propulsion, and 436 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: it began show open up asteroid mining as a realistic 437 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: thing because you now have such a continuous vehicle that 438 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: you don't have to refuel. What am I missing? That's it. 439 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 2: And not only that. One of the other benefits is 440 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: just the radiation environment. I mean to be on a 441 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 2: spacecraft for nine months, those astronauts are exposed to a 442 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: lot of radiation during that time. And think it's important 443 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: that they do it quickly. But you know, we crossed 444 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 2: the Atlantic and the Pacific and fairly rudimentary ships, and 445 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: we'll be doing that for a while as well, and 446 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: then ultimately we'll look back at a vehicle like starship 447 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: and think of how primitive it was. 448 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the time to Mars with a nuclear 449 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: propulsion is around seven weeks, so you really dramatically reduce 450 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: the radiation problem. 451 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're going to go to Mars, you've got 452 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 2: to bring a lot of stuff ahead of time. You 453 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: have to pre position all kinds of things at a 454 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: time so that there's going to be a lot of 455 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: ships going. 456 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: Look, you're both knowledgeable enough and young enough. Can you 457 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: imagine yourself going into orbit? 458 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 2: I would love to. 459 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 460 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 2: In fact, the last book, when I met with Jeff Bezos, 461 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to try to get a ride 462 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: on one of those suborbital trips on his new Shepherd rocket, 463 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: And as you may remember, NASA had the Teacher in 464 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: Space program for the Space Shuttle because they thought the 465 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: Space Shuttle was going to be flying so frequently that 466 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: they would open up seats to members of the public. 467 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: Decided first for a teacher and next was going to 468 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 2: be a journ Although some people think you should just 469 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: send the journalists up and not bring them back. But 470 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: I went up to NASA the archives and got a 471 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: copy of the Journalists and Space application and slid it 472 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: across the table to Jeff Bezos. He made no promises. 473 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: Well, when you get to Starship, its potential passenger capacity 474 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: is so enormous, we're going to be able to start thinking. 475 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: Like that right and sending people up. And that'll be 476 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: really interesting to see all of the different reactions to 477 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: space and people pupoo the space tourism thing, and there 478 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 2: was just the one with the celebrities and Katy Perry 479 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 2: and all of that. But I see a value in it, 480 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: just because I mean, where there been like seven hundred 481 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: people have been to space something like that. Imagine if 482 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: it's seven thousand or it's seventy thousand. It gets to 483 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 2: the point where you know someone or know someone who 484 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: knows someone who's been to space and can talk about that. 485 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: I mean, that would be extraordinary, and I think that 486 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: really would change people's perspective. 487 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: I think we will look back twenty or thirty years 488 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: from now and be amazed how primitive it was and 489 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: how much progress we're making, not just with rockets. I 490 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: was just down at the Area University looking at a 491 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: project they're working on where they've lined up all the 492 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: major areas of breakthrough robotics, artificial intelligence, new materials, about 493 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: nine of biology, and when you think about the synergistic 494 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: impact of each of these on each other, we really 495 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: could be at the beginning of a golden age of 496 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: exploration and development in ways that we've never thought of. 497 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: And that's why I chose to write the book, because 498 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: I'm covering this stuff in my day job at the 499 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: Washington Post and seeing these larger themes and seeing how 500 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: this really transcends what I can cover in my day job, 501 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: and wanted to create I mean, they say journalism is 502 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: the first rough draft of history, but I wanted to 503 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: do something more and put it down in a book 504 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: and to take that history because I do think thirty 505 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: forty years from now we're going to look back at 506 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: this as a really historic moment. 507 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: Do you have something in mind now for your next book? 508 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 2: I do. I do have something in mind. And I 509 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 2: was speaking with a friend and I had this idea 510 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: for a trilogy. And the first book was The Space 511 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 2: baron sort of early days of commercial space. And now 512 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: we're moving forward, but we're still sort of in the 513 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: covered wagon stage and we're not yet homesteading. We don't 514 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: have a base on the Moon, we don't have commercial 515 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: space stations. And I thought, well, that'll be the third book, 516 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, the homesteading, you know, from moving from exploration 517 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: to expansion, expanding into space. And my friend said, no, no, no, 518 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 2: Before we homestead, you got to get the cavalry. You 519 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: got to write about the Space Force and national security. 520 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: Space is really significant, and what China's doing up there, 521 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: what Russia's doing up there. I just spent a week 522 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: in July at the elbow of General Chance Saltzman, the 523 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 2: head of the Space Force, and it's a misunderstood and 524 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: often derided branch of the US military. But what's going 525 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: on militarily in space right now is frankly scary, and 526 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 2: it's very sobering. 527 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: Space dominance will be for the near future what airpower 528 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: was for over half a century. If you have it, 529 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: you dominate everything. If you don't have it, you're in 530 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: desperate trouble. I think just look at GPS. 531 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 2: You got that little blue dot on your phone. That's 532 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: Google Maps, and you're ordering your Uber. But the timing 533 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: aspect of that goes to every banking transaction, every trade 534 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 2: on the New York Stock Exchange. There are thirty four 535 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 2: of those satellites. Russia, China and others have demonstrated they 536 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: can clearly interfere with that. GPS signals are being interfered 537 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 2: with daily in places like Ukraine, and so widespread attack 538 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: on GPS doesn't mean you don't get your Uber, means 539 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: the entire US economy could collapse. 540 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: I really enjoy talking with you, and I think the 541 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: work you're doing is important for the whole country. Your 542 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: new book, Rocket Dreams, Musk Bezos and the Inside Story 543 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: of the New Trollion Dollar Space Race. It's available on 544 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: Amazon and bookstores everywhere. And I want our listeners to 545 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: know that they can follow the reporting you're doing on 546 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: NASA and the space industry. For the washt Post, at 547 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: Washingtonpost dot com. And I'm so glad Chris that you 548 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: would joined me for this. 549 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for having me. That was a real treat, 550 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: so much fun. 551 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests Christian Davenport. You can get 552 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book Rocket Dreams, Musk 553 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: Bezos and the Inside Story of the New Trillion Dollar 554 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: Space Race on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 555 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gingers three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 556 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: executive producers Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 557 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 558 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at gamestree sixty. If you've been 559 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and 560 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 561 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: review so all this can learn what it's all about. 562 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newsworld can sign up for my 563 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 564 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm Nut Gingrich. This is Newtsworld