WEBVTT - Gag Orders 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.600 Good morning, keeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.400 me your girl Daniel Moody Recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:23.640 I'm very excited to welcome back to okay F Daily 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.800 our friend Glenn Kirshner. Glenn and I pre tape this 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:34.720 ahead of today's court appearance by Donald Trump and Jack 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:41.360 Smith before Judge chunkin to discuss a gag order. And 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.800 in this conversation with Glenn, we go and we talk 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:52.239 about all of Trump's legal woes, but in particular between 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:57.240 what is happening in down in Georgia this month, as 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.360 well as what will be happening as you're listening to 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.640 this in Washington, d C. You know, and here's what 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.319 I will say, folks, as you've been, you know, listening 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.679 to the show. There are so many more important things 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.120 that are happening in the world and in this country, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.600 but it is still really important to keep an eye 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:21.240 on the person that ushered in this political healthscape that 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:27.160 we are currently living with, where you know, lawlessness reigns supreme. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.800 And you know, again, while I recognize and you know, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.240 through the conversations that I have on this show and 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:40.120 have stated, particularly over last week, that we know that 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.240 there are more important things and more important places to 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.880 be putting our energy. But it is important also to 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.160 keep an eye on and a foothold in what is 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:55.000 transpiring inside of our judicial system. For right now, it 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.600 continues to hold and I'm just looking friends, you know, 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.600 at the the Federal Circuit. I'm not even going to 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.680 touch what is happening at the Supreme Court and what 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:08.640 continues to happen there in that grifting, you know place. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:17.359 But how these judges move with regard to recognizing the 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:22.560 threat and the danger to our country that Donald Trump 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:28.760 continues to impose is going to be important because what 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:32.120 they are doing is setting the stage for how we 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.360 will measure things moving forward. And what we know is 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.480 that Donald Trump has continued to break the rules, move 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.440 the gold posts, understanding that the rules don't apply to him. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.680 And you know, you can look no further than George 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.720 Santos right in Congress. You can look at Bob Menendez 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.920 in the Senate. You can look at these people who 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.280 have broken our norms right and broken the law and 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.760 are currently indicted. But why did these people think that 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.840 they could get away with certain behaviors and certain actions. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.400 Well because what's good for the goose is good for 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.200 the gander, And so it's really important for us to 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.400 keep an eye on what is happening and how our 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.520 judiciary shakes out, because this is our last hold, you know, 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:24.120 between this andful fledged authoritarianism. So what happens over the 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.280 next several months and the course of twenty twenty four 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.920 is going to have deep implications as to where this 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.920 country ends up come, you know, a year from now, which, frankly, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.720 sometimes I do wish I had a crystal ball, But 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.440 then sometimes I'm really glad that I don't, because a 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.040 part of me doesn't want to know, but then a 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:43.680 part of me wants to know. So I can tell 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.840 us all how to prepare for what is coming next. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.920 But coming up next with this conversation is our friend 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:57.880 Glenn Kirshner. Folks, it has been a while since we've 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.600 had our friend MSNBC legal analyst and the host of 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.600 Justice Matters, Glenn Kirshner on Woke a f Daily to 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.960 give us a primer into where we are in the 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:16.279 legal dull drums of Donald Trump. Glenn, let's start out 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:22.000 with Georgia and what is transpired there, because Jim Jordan, 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.599 who just well, as of this recording, has lost his 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.159 bid to be the news speaker for the Republican Party, 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.719 has been weaponizing his position as the chair of the 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.640 House Judiciary Committee in many ways. But I would love 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:44.640 for you to give us a primer into what he's 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.040 been trying to do and what Fannie Willis has called 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:48.680 him out on. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:51.400 Yeah, you know, Danielle, I think we need to go 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:57.400 back to Jim Jordan criminally defying a congressional subpoena himself. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.200 I mean, it is mind boggling to think that a 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:05.960 member of Congress was subpoenaed to testify about incriminating information 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.720 evidence about a president of the United States trying to 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:14.120 overturn the results of a presidential election. Instead of providing 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.520 that evidence to a Congressional committee and by extension, to 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:24.240 the American people, he criminally defied the subpoena, thereby hiding 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:29.000 from all of us the evidence of Donald Trump's January 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.840 sixth crimes. That is something for which he has never 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.040 been made to account. I hope the hell he is someday. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:42.839 But against that backdrop, he then tried to interfere, misuse 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.320 his office and his power as chairman of the House 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.520 Judiciary Committee to try to interfere in Alvin Bragg's prosecution 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.080 up in New York. He didn't make a lot of 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.520 headway there. Now he's trying to interfere in Fonnie Willis's 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.839 RICO prosecution of Trump and others down in Georgia by 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.920 basically demanding that she'd turn over all of the information 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.760 and the documents and answer all kinds of questions about 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:14.800 why she is choosing to prosecute somebody who violated the 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:19.360 laws of the State of Georgia. He is abusing his position, 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.760 his power, his authority. He, in my opinion, is very 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:28.400 likely committing any number of crimes, including being an accessory 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.240 after the fact to Donald Trump's crimes, because he's trying 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:38.159 to help Donald Trump avoid and evade accountability prosecution. He's 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.680 trying to cover up the evidence of Donald Trump's crimes. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.520 And it is mind boggling to me that the Department 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:50.320 of Justice thus far has let him do it with impunity. 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.000 So Fawnie Willis pushed back hard, sent the letter, i 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.599 think her second letter just yesterday or in recent days, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.560 saying you either don't know, oh that the Constitution actually 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.640 separates the powers of the federal government from the States, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.760 and you, mister fed have no right interfering in the 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:15.000 state court prosecution of a criminal former president of the 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.120 United States or anybody else. Either you don't understand the 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.720 way the constitution works, or you're just affirmatively trying to 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:29.480 obstruct justice and try to help Trump avoid accountability. Which 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.120 is it? So she's not giving an inch, and now 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.720 we have to see what the next move might be. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.480 So let's pretend for a moment that Jim Jordan isn't 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.240 moving from a place of obstruction and malice and an 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.800 accomplice after the fact, what authority and what position would 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:54.840 he be coming from in order to demand information from 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.840 the Fulton County DA on information on a case that 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.960 is in Georgia. I just want folks to understand again, 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:07.480 these are state crimes. Right that she has indicted Donald 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:13.400 Trump and the other seventeen co conspirators on are state crimes. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.560 Jim Jordan is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.720 So tell me how this would make sense if, in fact, 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.920 Jim Jordan wasn't just trying to obstruct the law, or 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.160 is there an avenue for that to make sense? 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.480 Yeah, I don't think I'm creative enough to come up 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.920 with a legitimate argument as to why this makes sense. 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.120 Here is the best Jim Jordan has. He can say, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:45.400 you know, the prosecutor's office in Georgia receives some federal funds, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:50.960 some federal grants, some federal money, and in our oversight capacity, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.680 we want to question members or representatives of the Fulton 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.880 County District Attorney's office just to make sure that these 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:05.640 federal funds are being spent appropriately and aren't being you know, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:13.320 misallocated to bring an inappropriate prosecution against the former federal official. 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.920 As those words come out of my mouth, I don't 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.200 believe them because it's bs. But that really is the 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:25.520 only sort of legitimate potential hook Jim Jordan can hang 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.559 his hat on demanding information from Fawnie Willis. 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.679 Now, because Jim Jordan has the ability to just ignore 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:39.839 subpoenas apparently with and face no criminal responsibility or contempt 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.240 or anything like that, tell us where what position Fannie 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.720 Willis finds herself in. As she is putting out now 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:53.079 her second letter essentially stating that you are acting in 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:59.400 the way of obstruction to my case, what could possibly 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.360 happen with her Yeah. 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.400 So if I were Fannie Willis, I would be doing 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.000 precisely what she's doing. I would be standing on the 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:13.080 Constitution's separation separation of powers. Right. The Tenth Amendment says, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:19.200 the powers enumerated to the federal government are few, they 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.920 are limited, and all of the other powers are reserved 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.040 for the states or the people. And I would stand 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.000 on that separation of powers. So here is the next 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.920 play for Jordan. He can try to subpoena her, and 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.319 if she refuses to comply, I don't know if he's 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.960 technically issued a subpoena or they've just been sending letters 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.000 back and forth at this point. And then if she 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.480 refuses to apply and stands on the separation of powers 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.560 as provided by the Constitution, he can then move it 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.439 into court to try to have the court enforce the subpoena, 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.840 which he did up in New York when Alvin Bragg 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.720 told him to, you know, stick your subpoena, you know awhere, 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.920 And then there was some negotiating and Alvin Bragg ended 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:10.040 up presenting some information to Jordan and to his committee. 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.280 So I assume this will probably move into the courts, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.920 and then we'll have to have a court decide if 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.040 this is a righteous subpoena or if it's a violation 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.280 of the separation of powers and the subpoena is being 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:28.080 used nefariously by Jim Jordan to try to obstruct a 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:29.360 state court prosecution. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.960 And what court would that go through? Would that be Georgia, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.319 would it be Washington d C. Where Jim Jordan supposedly 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:41.040 is right as the chairman, Like, what circuit would that 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.360 be moving through if he chooses to make that move. 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.240 It's a great question. I think technically you might be 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.160 able to bring it in both DC and in Georgia. 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.080 But if we look at New York as a guide, 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:59.680 I believe Jordan and the committee filed in New York 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.920 because I know it was a New York State New 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.200 York federal judge that took up the question of the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.800 enforceability of Jordan's subpoena when he was subpoenaing stuff from 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:14.040 Alvin Bragg trying to interfere in the New York prosecution. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.199 So it may very well be a Georgia federal court 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.160 will take this up if it if it gets that far. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.120 I mean, but you know, here's here's what I have 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:28.840 seen at least outside of of the Cannon Court, is 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.520 that you know, it is clear that these judges, regardless 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.520 of who they've been appointed by, are really not interested 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.439 in frivolousness, right, Like, so what what even if you know, 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.920 let's let's shake the crystal ball for a minute, even 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.520 if it were to go up through the courts, is 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.760 there a strong enough case or does this look kind 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:54.680 of like all of Donald Trump's attorney's attempts to slow 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.000 things down or to obstruct where it's a waste of 0:12:58.000 --> 0:12:58.839 the court's time. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.520 Yeah, it's a great question. I do think the courts 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:06.520 have held strong on for example, all of the election challenges. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.480 They held strong when Judge Aleen Cannon literally abused her 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.760 judicial authority. Not my opinion, that's what the Eleventh Circuit 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.320 Court of Appeals ruled. She abused her judicial authority and 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.360 did an enormous favor for Donald Trump that the law 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.680 did not allow. By and large, the federal courts have 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:31.240 held fairly strong. I have a feeling though this is 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.839 probably slightly different than Trump and his lawyers filing frivolous 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.240 federal suits or cases. And here's what I predict will happen. 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.880 Sort of much of what we saw in New York 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:48.000 when okay, there was a little bit of negotiating, and 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.600 ultimately Alvin Bragg provided some information, you know, probably that 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.280 had something to do with federal money, federal grants, federal 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.000 funds that were being used by the New York District 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.640 Attorney's office, because that's actually a legitimate area for oversight. 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.920 But we all know that's not what Jim Jordan is doing. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.520 Has Jim Jordan subpoena district attorneys from the other forty 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.920 nine states to find out how federal funds and grant 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.440 money are being used, of course not because they're not 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.760 prosecuting his political benefactor, Donald Trump. So this is as 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.240 transparent as it gets. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:33.960 Okay, well, let's shift gears now and move over to 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.760 Jack Smith. Now, what we have seen of Jack Smith 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:43.120 and his cases is that most recently, he is trying 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:48.160 to present to Judge chuck In, who is overseeing the 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:55.680 January sixth case, a potential gag order for Donald Trump, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.760 who let me just remark and say that if Donald 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.720 Trum for anybody else other than a person with the 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.360 name Donald Trump, Donald Trump would be in jail. He 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.200 has threatened judges, he has threatened law clerks, he has 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:17.760 threatened jurors, he has weaponized his social media platforms and 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.640 put people in harm's way. There is no way that 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.440 if he was not the former twice impeached president of 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.040 the United States, that he would be out right now. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.040 So now here comes Jack Smith working to try and 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.600 get a gag order. Talk to us about this, because 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.760 what we've seen is these limited gag orders. Judge anger On, 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.680 I feel like I'm maybe butchering his name put one 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:48.520 in place, not for himself, but after Donald Trump posted 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.600 the picture of his law clerk with Chuck Schumer. So 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.880 what do you make of this? 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.240 You know, it's about time somebody imposed a gag order 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.280 on Donald Trump. And as much as I think in 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.240 the moment, we were all celebrating the fact that some 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:12.960 judge stepped up and tried to protect somebody from Donald 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:18.640 Trump's dangerous, indeed often deadly rhetoric by imposing a gag order, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.400 there was a momentary celebration there. But Danielle, it highlights 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:29.800 the extreme injustice and the unequal application of the rule 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.160 of law. And here's how Donald Trump, as you just cataloged, 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:41.360 has been endangering witnesses, grand jurors, prosecutors, judges, and all 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.440 of their respective family members. And he's been doing it 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:50.000 with impunity. But what happens when somebody close to a judge, 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:56.160 somebody that a judge obviously feels very protective about his 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.640 law clerk, gets put in harm's way by a Donald 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:05.240 Trump instant gag order. Well, isn't it not? See I'm 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.280 not laying into Judge Ngeron here because he did the 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.439 right thing. But it highlights that if you're close to 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.560 a judge, if a judge feels protective about you, in 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:22.480 particular instant gag order, no motions and replies and oppositions 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.840 and oral arguments and decisions, and written a snap gag 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.879 order to protect somebody that the judge feels protective about. 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:37.679 How about we feel protective regarding the witnesses Donald Trump 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.680 is endangering every day and the jurors and the prosecutors 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.880 and their family, just the way Judge Ngern felt protective 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.560 of his law clerk. And how about we use the 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.600 rule of law as it was intended to be used, 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.920 and we gag Donald Trump from endangering all those other 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.320 people who maybe aren't so close to the judge. You know, 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.359 you can see that there's more injustice than there is 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.600 justice right in this snap gag order that was issued 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.600 by Judge Ngeround. But the silver lining, which I'm always 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.520 looking for, and sometimes it's peeking out behind the big 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.439 dark cloud that is Donald Trump, the silver lining is 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.560 I think this will make it even easier for Judge 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.240 Chuckkin on Monday. I'll be in the courtroom when this 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.680 argument is held to impose a far more sweeping gag order. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.760 Because even after Jack Smith filed the motion with Judge 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.240 Chuckin seeking a broader gag order, what did Donald Trump 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.360 do said that one of the really compelling witnesses against him, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.480 General Mark Milly, should be executed Danielle. If a defendant 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.160 on release in four felony cases ever threatened to witness, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.560 that person would be in pre trial detention so fast 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.919 it would make their head spin. And this is the 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:04.560 continued failure of our institutions of government to take responsibility 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.560 for a president, former president, who continues to try to 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:12.640 kill our democracy. And I wish I had an explanation 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.040 for why we are allowing it to go. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.040 On, because, honestly, Glenn, I mean, I just want to 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.360 remind folks, because you've talked about this for so many 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.119 years on this show. But like you have prosecuted, you know, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:31.560 mob bosses, drug lords, you know, murderers. If any of 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.520 those people involved in rico cases that you've tried over 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.440 the last thirty years need any of the things that 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:45.119 Donald Trump has done, stated said at rallies on social media, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:46.639 what would happen to that person? 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.959 They would be in pre trial detention instantly. Because the 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:55.640 standard to detain somebody pending trial if they're on release 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:00.720 in a federal felony case is is there clear and 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.120 convincing evidence that the person poses a danger to any 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.679 person or to the community. The answer to that is 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.960 a resounding yes. Donald Trump poses a danger to witnesses 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.160 and judges and prosecutors and their family members and jurors 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.800 and you name it. And so you know, anybody else, 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:24.280 anybody else would be instantly pending trial. Not only that, 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.160 he's also on pre trial release presently, and he has 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.640 been violating the terms of his release with impunity. That's 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.600 a reason to revoke his pre trial release. Separate and 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.840 apart from whether he's a danger to the community and 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.840 a flight risk, he is either unable or unwilling to 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.040 abide by conditions of release. There are so many reasons 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.479 to detain impending trial, not the least of which is 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.040 it will end up taking away his megaphone. It will 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.960 bring the temperature of the country down, It will give 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.840 it will give the people some hope of a fair 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.919 and impartial jury being impaneled to try the case against him. 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:11.440 You know, and our system of government, our institutions, refuse 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.760 to take responsibility and do what the law really demands. 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:16.800 They're just ignoring it. 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.399 I mean, Glenn, is it the belief then that the 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:26.760 risk of putting Donald Trump in pre trial tension is 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.800 greater than letting him be free? Do you know what 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:30.200 I'm saying? 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.919 It doesn't yet, But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.199 what the risk is because here and I agree with you, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:41.960 that there are people who are taking extraneous factors, factors 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.680 that have nothing to do with the law and the facts. 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.280 Extraneous factors. I often call it politics, but it's not 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:55.919 really politics. It is perhaps, you know, national security, Like, 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.280 won't people you know, flood the won't his supporters flood 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.320 the streets and start shooting? Okay, here's the thing that 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.480 would be horrific, And I don't ever want to see 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:10.600 that happen in America. But it doesn't matter because you 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:16.879 do not make prosecutorial decisions based on extraneous factors, because 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:21.119 once you do, the rule of law means nothing because 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:24.600 you're no longer applying it as it was intended to 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.200 be applied. I'm not going to say I don't care 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.679 if his supporters take up arms. I don't think they 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.360 will because they are by and large weaken, cowardly people. Yes, 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.320 some of them are well armed, but I don't think 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.880 they're going to put them in themselves in harm's way 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.640 if Donald Trump is detained pending trial. But we are 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.200 putting the nation in harm's way if we don't apply 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.040 the law as it was intended to be applied and 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.040 detain Donald Trump pending trial. 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.359 With a couple of minutes that we have left, you're 0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:02.040 going to be in court come come Monday, where Judge 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.600 Chunkin will rule. Right, I'm assuming on whether or not 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:11.520 to impose a larger, more encompassing gag order. 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.920 And she may not rule instantly, Okay, listen to the arguments. 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:16.800 She may take a couple of days, but she'll rule 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:17.520 pretty promptly. 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:21.240 So what would that can can you just walk us 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:25.640 through what would be included in that gag order and 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:30.720 then if broken, what would be what would be the penalty? 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:36.440 Yeah, I suspect I obviously don't know how Judge chuck 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:41.360 In will fashion any restriction on Donald Trump's speech and posts, 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.879 but I suspect it will be you may not speak 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:52.840 publicly or post publicly about witnesses, prosecutors, court or court 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:58.359 staff family members in a way that good could be 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:03.879 perceived as threatening, intimidating, harassing. And then she's going to 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.840 have to fashion a number of restrictions to prevent him 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:12.160 from infecting the jury pool, from continuing to flood the 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.399 you know, the airwaves and continue to spew into the 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:19.479 public square disinformation that you know, the people who are 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:22.320 going to be jurors, they're absorbing it, they're hearing it, 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:24.639 you know. And so she's going to have to find 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:29.080 some creative way to limit Donald Trump's ability to poison 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.119 the jury pool. And the other thing that was just 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.600 taken up in a recent motion filed by Jack Smith 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:40.439 is with respect to once the jurors come into the courtroom, 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:45.040 the hundreds of them who are summoned into you know, 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:50.679 for jury selection, what Donald Trump may not do. For example, 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.760 this is what Jack Smith just filed emotion regarding they said. Look, 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:59.800 you can look at social media and look at any 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.960 publicly available information. For example, if jurors are posting publicly 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:09.800 things about themselves, but you can't contact them, you can't 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:14.040 communicate with them, you can't friend them trying to draw 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:17.120 more information out of them. And you can't have your 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:21.480 cruddy associates like Roger Stone and Steve Bannon and these 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:26.160 other knuckleheads. You can't have them friend them or communicate 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:28.879 them with them as your surrogates, et cetera, et cetera. 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.760 These are perilous times for jurors as much as anybody else. 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.680 So Judge Chuckin, who is up to the task. I 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.040 used to try murder cases against her back in the day, 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:40.640 and I've been in her court more recently as she's 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.959 presided over Jay six cases. She's up to the task. 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.560 But it's going to be challenging to fashion the kind 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.600 of you know, narrowly tailored restrictions on his speech and 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:55.159 his posts that will accomplish all of this, but that 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:57.040 won't run a foul of the First Amendment. 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:03.560 If this happens, Glenn, he violates it. 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:08.880 He will violate then what well, Judge chuck In, don't 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:13.479 play she will probably. Now let me tell you, in 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.720 my experience, I have had lots of people violate conditions 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.760 that were set by the court, both pre trial and 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:22.639 like post trial when they were in a probationary status. 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.520 Judges ordinarily like to give a defendant one stern warning, 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:32.000 a good finger wag, and then says, if you do 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:37.680 it again, here are the consequences up to an including 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:40.720 you will be revoked on release and you will be 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:47.000 detained pending trial. And it's in that way they basically 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.080 put the keys to the jail cell in the defendant's hand, 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.920 and they warn them, if you violate the condition one 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:57.959 more time, I will lock you up. Your freedom is 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:01.520 in your hands, not mine. I would suspect now there 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.560 may be an intram money fine, which doesn't matter because 0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:08.400 he'll just grift more money from his base pay the fine. 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:12.639 But I suspect that is the direction in which we're heading, 0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:15.720 and it's only a question of how quickly we get there. 0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:19.880 I do think, I do think there's a very real 0:27:19.960 --> 0:27:23.080 possibility that Donald Trump will end up in a jail cell, 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:26.520