WEBVTT - When Gay People Die, How Are We Remembered? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.359 Hey, it's Jordan. Before we get started with today's episode, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:08.320 I wanted to share some really exciting news. We've been 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.000 nominated for a Signal Award. The Signal Awards reward podcasts 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.639 that impact American culture, and our very first episode on 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.600 Stonewall was nominated for Best LGBTQ Podcast Episode, and you 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.800 can actually vote for us and we can win this. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.240 So I'm gonna tell you how to vote now, and 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.120 there are a couple steps, but it's super easy. It'll 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.479 take you like two minutes. So first, go to vote 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.600 dot Signal Award dot com, click on the categories button 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.600 and then select individual episodes, and then under the general 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.120 tab click on LGBTQ Plus and you should see us there. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.080 It'll ask you to create an account, which takes like 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.160 ten seconds, and once you vote, you'll get a confirmation 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.320 email to confirm your vote. Now, voting does close kind 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.600 of soon, like on October seventeenth, so get your vote 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.680 in and let's win this. Because I know that I 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.360 have the best listeners in the world, and a special 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.000 thank you to all of you listeners. This really wouldn't 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.679 be possible without you, so thank you again, and let's 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:15.560 get into the show. But We Loved is a production 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.480 of iHeart Podcasts and The Outspoken podcast Network. 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.720 So that night we went to bed, and when I 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.720 woke up the next morning, the sheets were soaked, and 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.240 I knew. I knew that was it and when that 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.080 was one of the major symptoms when heard about its 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.520 night sweats and I woke up and Joe wasn't awake 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.639 yet and I was lying in sweat. I'm like, oh 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:52.160 my god, he's got AIDS. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.280 As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South, 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.440 I thought being gay was the worst thing I can be. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.560 Now as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn that by 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:08.360 seeking out our history, and what I've found are people 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:14.880 and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love. In this episode, 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.200 we'll meet Larry Colton, a man whose life was deeply 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.639 impacted by the AIDS crisis in San Francisco. Will reflect 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:28.080 on the concept of legacy in the LGBTQ community, thinking 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.800 especially about those who were lost to AIDS and what 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.880 they left behind. For My Heart Podcasts, I'm Jordan and Solve, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:37.919 and this is. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:03:30.920 What we loved. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.280 As human beings. I think it's pretty normal to think 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.280 about what kind of legacy we want to leave behind. 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.200 For me, it's been a thought that I've obsessed over, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.000 really my whole adult life, ever since I came out, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.280 Like what am I going to leave when I die? 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.520 I didn't realize it until recently, but so much of 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.160 the pressure I was putting on myself was coming from 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:38.640 something specific, my unconscious fear that I would die early 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.000 because I'm a gay man. During the AIDS crisis, HIV 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.040 was the number one cause of death among young men. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:51.560 Sometimes I wonder about all those young people that died 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.600 and what their legacies are. When it's not children or 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:02.040 wealth that you're leaving behind, how are you remembered? My 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.400 next guest, Larry Colton, was deeply impacted by the AIDS 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:10.840 crisis in San Francisco and that very same question. During 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.800 the seventies and eighties, he was closeted at work to 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.520 his family, but he found respite in the exploding San 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.520 Francisco gay scene and in a partner he would soon 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:30.200 meet there too. Joe, tell me what it was like 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.800 to be gay in San Francisco in the mid to 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:35.839 late seventies. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.880 God, this is so You're bringing up such interesting memories 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:41.880 that I hadn't thought about. For years. It was sort 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.839 of the beginning of gay liberation and gay freedom which 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.440 had come out of the sixties and the seventies, and 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:51.400 San Francisco being the epicene of a free space, a 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.120 liberal city. It was. The housing was cheap, and there 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.479 was a bar called The End of which I think 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.960 quite frankly exists to this day, you know. And it 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.600 was it really started at ten at night and would 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:11.039 go till two, and it had a plastic disco floor 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.000 that everybody would with lights underneath it. It's probably still there, 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.840 and people would dance like crazy. Now remember that was 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.160 Donna Sumbers. Who knows what was playing back then, but 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.760 it was packed and it was so active, and the 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:30.600 average age was probably mid to late twenties, you know, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.239 and everybody was free. You know. After the bar closed, 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.640 you'd hang out with your friends on the street. You know, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.320 you might go get a hamburg or do something afterwards. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.080 But it was you met a lot of people, you know, 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.400 and they were all friendly. Everybody felt the sense of 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:48.280 freedom and liberation that sort of accompanied that time. There 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.120 was one other bar that still exists, probably the oldest 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.640 bar in San Francisco, on the corner of Castro and 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.000 a market and they they used to call the glass 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:03.000 Coffin because only old guys went there. But but you 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.440 could but you could see in big windows open to 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.839 the street. At that point, people weren't hiding, which realized 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.400 that and then itself was a big change. Going to 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.400 a bar that had big windows was really an acknowledgment 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.040 of your life and a validation because you weren't hiding. 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.640 Oh you're saying that this was one of the first 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:27.840 bars that was openly gay. Yes, wow, okay, god, And 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.840 that was that was a really freeing feeling. You get 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.640 into the bartenders. It was like and you had a 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.240 you knew almost everybody there, and as it supposed to 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.040 any community, you find your own right where you feel 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:42.520 comfort and you feel. 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:42.760 Like you're heard. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.919 So you found your tribe. I did absolutely tell me 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.599 about the bathhouses. I want to know about what sexuality 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.080 was like at this time in San Francisco. 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.880 Okay, Well, it's it's funny because somebody I was with 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.479 somebody at the other night we were actually talking about this. Oh, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.840 I know, somebody was showing me grinder, you know, and 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.680 I know now I'm really dating myself and I'm looking 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.800 really naive but John, I had a friend come over 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.760 who's single, and all of a sudden, he's on Grinder 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.520 and I'm like, okay, show me this. I want to 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:20.040 know how this works. I want know who the hell's 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.480 around me, whether I know anybody. And it was such 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.120 an education, you know, and he's explaining to me, like, 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.160 what's that word they use on grinder now? Like not yo, 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:35.960 but what's up? Sup? Like what's up? I never like what? 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:37.600 But anyway, it dates me. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:39.920 Bath houses were grinder back then. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.560 They were they were you know, it was just a 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.320 sex place, right, I mean, that's what it was for. 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.280 They would be given a towe when they came in. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.880 They had a locker they would just rope put their 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.560 towels on and they'd start walking around. And they had 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.320 private rooms, and they had public spaces, and they had saunas, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.000 and they had steam rooms. And in San Francis, the 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.040 original bathos I first went to, which was in an alleyway, 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.720 was really fancy. They had like a like a mini restaurant. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.840 They had a wall, aquarium, wall, huge waterfalls. I mean, 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.720 it was very fancy and people would stay all night. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.000 I mean would just stay for like a day or two. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.800 But it was very popular and just packed, and especially 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.160 after the bars at two. I mean you'd have a 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.400 line out the door starting between two and three, you know, 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:30.080 in the morning. 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.200 So tell me about work. You were a businessman. What 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.920 was it like working as a gay man in business 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.119 in the seventies. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.560 I was twenty four. I started looking for a job 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.720 and I ended up working in an insurance company because, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.640 quite frankly, at the time, they offered eight hundred bucks 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.720 a month. One of my big fears which always remained 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.400 with me, was I went to work for a regional 0:08:55.520 --> 0:09:01.080 insurance brokerage firm and nobody knew I was getting. You know, 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.400 I always had a woman I took to a company events, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.320 and I always felt like I would they wouldn't want 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:07.760 me if they found out I was gay. So I 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:12.640 simply felt that I had a limited lifespan at that job. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.959 You really lived two separate lives. And I was moving 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.720 up the ladder rather rapidly at this job, and I 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.559 was all of a sudden, the receptionists rang my phone. 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.560 I had an office and she said, there's somebody here 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.960 to see you. And the way she said it, I 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:31.840 think I almost had a heart attack. I said something's 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.360 not right here. And I went out and it was 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.960 a guy I knew from the bars who had somehow 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.439 figured out where I worked and showed up in hot pants. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.920 Oh god, and he was the biggest queen you'd ever 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.560 want to meet. And I almost died. I thought, my god, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.840 my cover has just been blown. You know who saw this? 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.200 What the fuck? Excuse me? What are you doing here? 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.600 I just was in the area and wanted to say hi. 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.800 So that was the kind of fear you had about 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.320 how one event of that nature might in fact really 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:06.200 destroy your career. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.760 Well, tell me how was dating going for you at 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:10.240 this point? 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.040 Okay, So I just turned thirty at the time. I'm 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.320 living in Marin County, which is across the Bay from 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:21.280 San Francisco, and I commute to work by ferryboat. And 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.480 it was just beautiful, I mean absolutely idyllic. You just 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.840 couldn't ask for more beautiful. You see the San Francisco skyline. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.160 And so, you know, I read my New York Times 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.640 or my San Francisco Chronicle, whatever I was reading, and 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.760 I really wasn't paying much attention. But of course, at 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:41.600 one point I see this really handsome guy who's got 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.920 reddish blonde hair, blue eyes and really bashful and really shy, 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.920 and you know, on multiple days all week we keep 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.920 seeing each other and clearly there was energy going back 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.400 and forth. So we were getting off the ferry and 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.800 we introduced each other one another and next thing you know, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.920 we are if we fall head and heel over in love. 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.520 So Joe was from an Irish family, eleven in the family, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.880 nine kids. He was having his own issues with his 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.160 family because as you might imagine Irish Catholic, he like me, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.320 was not out to his family at all, Nor was 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.559 I still at this point, so he was just getting 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.120 started in his career. I was more established in mind. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.920 He was five years younger than I was. We just 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.120 really hit it off and we spentnded spending all of 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.480 our time together. But we also what was true for 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:33.920 both of us is we really shared a passion for travel. 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.199 We kept going to Meka Notes for a number of years. 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.000 We went to Europe, we went to Asia, so we 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.679 really that was one thing that we really truly loved. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.640 And he was an artist, he painted, and we just 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.760 were released simpatico and it was a relationships that was 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:49.680 really meaningful. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.120 Even though Larry and weren't out to their parents. They 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.079 were still really happy. Larry was the outgoing and social 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.000 one and Joe was the quiet one everyone was drawn to. 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.400 They balanced each other out. A month into their relationship 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.439 and Joe showed up to Larry's house with a moving truck. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.480 They hadn't talked about it, but Joe decided it was time, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.440 and Larry agreed. Their love wasn't anything fancy, but it 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.760 was stable. It was them leaving each other love notes 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.720 around the house. Joe would sign each one of his 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.040 with the drawing of a pig, a running joke about 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.160 how messy he was. They'd straighten each other's ties before work, 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.640 and then they'd take the scenic ferry route into the 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:48.440 city each morning. Their life was perfect until it wasn't. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.120 On July third, nineteen eighty one, the New York Times 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.400 ran a small article on page twenty of the newspaper 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.960 titled rare cancer seen in forty one homosexuals. The cases 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.160 were mostly in New York City and San Francisco, but 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.959 eight people had already died. That article created a caricature 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.200 of who was being affected, gay men who had up 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.000 to quote ten sexual encounters each night up to four 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:21.360 times a week. Symptoms included purple or brown or red 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.640 blotches that would show up on the skin, called capasi sarcoma. 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.480 At one point, the disease was called GRID, gay related 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:36.360 immune deficiency. It would eventually become known as AIDS. Larry, 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.640 take me to the moment that you first heard about AIDS. 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:41.240 Was it the New York Times article? 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.320 Yes, it was. Actually there was a gay newspaper called Bar, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:48.880 but it first appeared in the New York Times. That 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.480 was in the San Francisco Chronicle. Then it very quickly 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.000 got picked up by the bar, which you'd get this 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.400 newspaper at the bars or in the castro and little stands. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.120 It was a free paper. First you read about GRID, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:03.480 and that's what it was first, called. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.959 Gay related immune deficiency. 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.200 Correct, And it felt so distant. I mean again, we 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.800 felt we were so insulated from all this. We were 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.679 more monogamous. It wasn't necessarily going to hit us, but 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.160 we were. We had fear. We said, okay, what is 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:22.920 this going to mean? How is this going to play out? 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.800 And we sort of watched it unfold, and it unfolded 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.840 first and foremost at the bars. People started losing weight 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.400 somebody would come in with a blotch on their face 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:43.520 or on their arm. You know that that's carposi sarcoma thrush. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.560 People would get rashes in their mouth, and you just 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.120 saw people. You'd say, well, where's I remember the first one. 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.400 I'm like, where's Larry? Where is he? I haven't seen 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.080 it for a while. Oh, he's sick. It was like 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.400 out of a classic movie. Simultaneously, you're starting to see 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.760 obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle. Then you're saying the 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.960 real obituaries in the bar magazine, and you realize this 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.560 is really picking up steam, and it is very serious, 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:17.280 and it was very, very scary, And again we had 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.680 false hope because we felt we were insulated. But nobody 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:25.360 knew the incubation period. Nobody really knew what was actually 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.200 causing it was a certain sexual act, you know what 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.560 was behind it. Joe and I used to go to Meekonos. 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.280 We went each year because we just loved it. It 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.600 was beautiful, free nude beaches, it was a great food, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.600 it was a wonderful place, wonderful respite. And our best 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:46.520 friends Gene Dave would go with us and they were 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.200 staying at a hotel and we were staying in something 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.640 cheaper because we were cheap, and they said, come over to 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.840 our pool and we'll sit around the pool. And so 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.280 we went and Joe and David, our friend, my best 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:03.520 friend actually were swimming, and his partner of eight years, 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:05.880 you know, it was not a new relationship, although I'd 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.680 been an open relationship, was sitting next to be in 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.520 a chaise lounge and said turned his arm over and 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.640 looked and said, Larry, look at this mark I have 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.080 on my arm. I knew what it was right away. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:20.960 I mean I'd done my research enough to know what 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.960 it was. And he said, what do you think that is? 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.000 And of course I said, Gene, I have no idea, 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.920 but you need to get a check when we get back, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.680 no question. Well that was the first manifestation of something 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.720 that had hit Gene, and he was the first, the 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.440 closest person that we'd known that was then at that 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:45.040 point infected with AIDS. And he got back and very 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:51.400 rapidly he developed tax tax taxio plasmos i camember when 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.960 it was a brain disease where you know, he went crazy. 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.560 I mean they had to institutionalize them and it just 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.680 he he died very quickly. That was the one that 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.199 brought it home. That was the one where we we 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.159 knew we were in the middle of an AIDS crisis 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.439 and it was now affecting us, and all of a sudden, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.359 it was like the avalanche began and people kept getting sick. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:18.760 It was very It was very hard. 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.159 How did that change your relationship with Joe? Were you 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.360 afraid to be sexual with Joe? 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.600 I think we found solace being together because we felt 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.680 that we protected one another, you know, in a way, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.160 we became more insular. I would also tell you, though, 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.200 that we it probably curtailed with things we did. We 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.679 were scared. We were not sure if if we were 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.800 exchanging body fluids. We weren't. We weren't sure what we 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.360 were doing to one another, you know, and so there 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.280 was a fear factor, no question about it. One experience 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.080 I would tell you about, which was really attending an 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.359 assisted death for a very a very young man was 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:05.800 an earliest wow, and he just became covered in posts zarcoma. 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:12.040 It just covered and he couldn't swallow. It was just horrible. 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.040 And he was the partner of my dear friend who 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.000 lived to marin. The young guy who and these are young, healthy, gorgeous. 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.399 This guy was maybe twenty five to twenty six, and 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.480 he developed once our posts, he got some on his 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.840 face and then all of us. They were like red 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.639 red dots, which are probably the size of anywhere from 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.040 a dime to a nickel to a quarter, and they 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.600 could be isolated on your little bit, any parts of 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.480 your body. But in his case, they just it was 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.600 almost like having the measles of the mumps. It just 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.360 covered him. He was trying to go on with his life. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.120 So they'd have us over and you knew it wasn't contagious, 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.359 that was not an issue we had. We got that. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.240 But you go over and you just see him covered 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:02.080 and you could just see his misery. And Scott, my friend, said, 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.280 you know, my partner has decided that he wants to 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.200 to die. He does not want to go on because 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.520 he knows it's just going to get worse. And he said, 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.560 will you would you agree to come over to our 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.439 house and there'll be somebody there to administer the drugs 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.640 and I want, I need you to to go take 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.000 me for a walk, you know, so we can because 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.159 I can't be in the house when this happens. So 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.520 that's what we did. Then you go to work, Hi, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:30.600 how is your weekend great? How are you have a 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.159 good weekend? Great? You know, so you just lived a 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:35.399 separate reality. 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:37.560 How many funerals did you attend? 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:39.919 One of a two weeks and that? So that was 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:45.119 not a lot, honestly, you know, not a lot, not 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.720 relative to what others were going through. I mean, oh yeah, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.240 I mean that was the thing. It was so horrible, 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.359 but that, relatively speaking, was not bad. I mean that's 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:56.399 how weird it got. 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.080 How are things going with Joe at this point? 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.640 So things were going well, but his parents always wanted 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.960 him to go to grad school. So one day he 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:06.600 comes home and says, you know something. He was working 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.199 at an insurance company. He really wasn't going anywhere. It 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.840 was fine, he said, you know, I put it in 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.560 an application to go to London School of Economics for 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.239 a year. And I was pissed. I'm like, excuse me, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.280 we didn't just talk about this. Where is this coming from? 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.640 He said, well, you know, I always wanted to do it, 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.520 but I didn't feel what the time was right, and 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.600 I really wanted When I've been accepted and I'm leaving 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:32.320 in a week. 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:34.600 Oh my gosh. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.159 I'm like, I was aghast, I was hurt. I was 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.000 trying to process what is this about? And he says, like, 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:43.600 I totally don't want to leave this relationship, but I 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.480 want this experience, you know, and I'll come back a lot. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.640 So it's you know, we can still you know, it'll 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.960 all work out. And I'm like, okay. I mean, if 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.119 that's what you want, I have to honor that. I 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.400 was hurt, but I'm like okay. But within six months 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.520 he called me and said, I can't do this anymore. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.000 I miss you. I'm unhappy. This really isn't for me. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.680 I want to come home. So he did. He came home, 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:11.000 he dropped out, came back to the Bay Area. Then well, 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.040 one thing, two things happened. Number One, all of a sudden, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.879 he gained a huge amount of weight, and it was 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.639 like it didn't make any sense. It was not like 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.080 normal weight. It was like it like he looked bloated. 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.399 And he I remember him saying to me. We went 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.600 to a restaurant and he said, do you think I'm sick? 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.240 I said, Joe, don't be ridiculous. How could you be sick? 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.640 You know, we've been monogamous that d duh. I remember thinking, well, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.800 I don't think so. But I wasn't one hundred percent 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.199 sure of what I was saying. But I think we 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.520 both dismissed it, at least I did so. Fast forward 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.080 to my birthday. We decided to go to Paris for 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.840 my birthday. This is when all things really started, the 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.120 shit really started to hit the fan. We decided we'd 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.320 go with two of our best lesbian friends, and we 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:56.000 were just very close and he picked me up and 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:59.000 I looked at him and he looked sick. He looked ill. 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.200 I said, what's wrong? He said, I don't feel well. 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:03.240 I'm like, maybe we shouldn't go. He said, no, I'll 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.440 be fine, it'll pass, but I'm just not really feeling well. 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:09.320 So we got on the plane and we went to Paris. 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:14.080 We checked in the hotel in Paris. So that night 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.960 we went to bed and when I woke up the 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:25.479 next morning, the sheets were soaked and I knew. I 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.320 knew as that was it and when that was one 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.640 of the major symptoms when heard about its night sweats 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.600 And I woke up and Joe wasn't awake yet, and 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.120 I was lying in sweat and I'm like, oh my god, 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:47.240 he's got AIDS. And so he woke up and he 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:48.879 was shivering, and he said, you know, I wanted to 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.800 take a bath. So he said, I'm just let me 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.840 take a bath. I'll feel much better. So he did, 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:58.000 and I left and I walked from the hotel to 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.960 Luxembourg Gardens, which is all there forget sat down early 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.840 in the morning, probably eight or nine, and I said that. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:09.080 I said, you know something, Joe has aids. First of all, 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:10.840 what are we going to do? Do we go home 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.520 now immediately? How are we going to tell his parents? 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.920 What's how long does he have? What does this new 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.439 world look like? It was like, all of a sudden, 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.359 the world had turned upside down. I had no idea 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.800 how we were going to navigate it. And then it 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.679 took me like five minutes to think, hold it, what 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.639