1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

13
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

14
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm fine? Happy post holidays.

15
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 2: I know, you know, it's time just as flying the

16
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 2: older I get it seems like these holidays come faster

17
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 2: and faster.

18
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: You and a milestone on this holiday, right.

19
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 2: Kind of you know, this is the first year for

20
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 2: me in thirty three years that I haven't had children

21
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 2: in the house.

22
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. They came home for Thanksgiving and for

23
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: the holidays, right for Christmas.

24
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,679
Speaker 2: Right. So I have two kids that are in college,

25
00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,560
Speaker 2: two different colleges in the Midwest, and they both came

26
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 2: home at the same time, so we were empty nesters

27
00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,679
Speaker 2: leading up to the holiday season. But now you know

28
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 2: they're going back to college and won't see them again. Well,

29
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 2: chances are won't see them again until they're spring break.

30
00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So I'm asking for a friend here.

31
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: Do they have certain expectations when they come home from college.

32
00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: I've got two kids getting ready to go in a

33
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: couple of years, Like, what do they think? Do they

34
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 1: think things are frozen in time? Is that what happens?

35
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And we just treat when they come back,

36
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 2: they get back into their routine, you know, and they

37
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,680
Speaker 2: get well, they have to do their own baundry, but

38
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 2: they just do their normal routine. Sometimes they have some assignments,

39
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, and my daughter as a trumpet player, so

40
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,000
Speaker 2: she has to continue to practice even though she's home.

41
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 2: But we just want them to be comfortable. And you know,

42
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,920
Speaker 2: I considered moving this where I'm podcasting from up into

43
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,240
Speaker 2: their space where they have their computers, but then I

44
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 2: thought about it, and then that would be such a

45
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 2: disruption for them when they do get the chance to

46
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 2: come home. So I think I'm going to be in

47
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,680
Speaker 2: this space for our podcast into the foreseeable future.

48
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 1: Well, this is a good space, so I approve of it,

49
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 1: and I think that's fine. I remember wanting to come

50
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 1: home and just the shrine that it was my room

51
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: stays exactly the same, and I think my mom and

52
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 1: my dad both kept it that way. I wanted everything.

53
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: I missed the dog, I missed my car, I missed

54
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 1: because I was going to school in Boston. I just

55
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 1: wanted everything sort of frozen. And I was unaccepting that

56
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 1: things change when you're gone. So I wonder if your

57
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 1: kids feel like.

58
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 2: That too, I think so, you know, like for me,

59
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 2: I was a military brat, so I was used to

60
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,360
Speaker 2: moving around. In fact, I needed to have different spaces.

61
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,839
Speaker 2: If I was in one location that didn't change for

62
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 2: a period of time, I'd start going nuts, you know.

63
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,840
Speaker 2: So I would drive my first wife nuts because I

64
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 2: would constantly rearrange the house.

65
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: Did you break that somehow? Therapy?

66
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 2: What had changed not so much from therapy. It was

67
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 2: just as as I got older, that urge started to fade,

68
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 2: because now I'm living in one location for my career,

69
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 2: well not one location, but generally I was staying in

70
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,800
Speaker 2: places longer. And then that just that urge to be

71
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,200
Speaker 2: in a new place started to go away.

72
00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when one of my girls goes to camp,

73
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: she laments missing these dogs, both of our dogs, and

74
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: it's not usually us, it's mostly the dogs. And I

75
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 1: was like that too. I'm upset. You always said I

76
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 1: miss the dog so much, So I understand that because

77
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 1: the dog didn't ask me to do stuff like my

78
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,880
Speaker 1: laundry things like that. Sure, sure, Well, I'm glad you

79
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: guys had good holidays and the empty nester thing, I know,

80
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,080
Speaker 1: takes a little bit of time to get used to.

81
00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 1: It's nice when they came home and it sounds like

82
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: everything went really well.

83
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 2: It did. Thanks for asking.

84
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna get to story located in a place

85
00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 1: that feels like home for me, my second home, which

86
00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: is England. And this is a really interesting story. Now,

87
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 1: I've never been to Liverpool, and I'm not even gonna ask.

88
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you've never been to Liverpool already, I

89
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:45,279
Speaker 1: have not.

90
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I've met some people from Liverpool. They

91
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 2: have very different accents than the people in London.

92
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: Right, equally as lovely, yes, equally as lovely. And I

93
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 1: am not a soccer slash football fan, but I know

94
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 1: what a big deal that is. Has nothing to do

95
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: with our story, but we've never done something in Liverpool,

96
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,279
Speaker 1: so this will be interesting, all right, looking forward to it. Okay,

97
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,720
Speaker 1: let's set the scene. Okay, we are in Liverpool, like

98
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: I mentioned, and it is January twentieth, nineteen thirty one,

99
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,240
Speaker 1: which means we are smack in the middle of the

100
00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 1: almost twelve years between World War One ending and then

101
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,719
Speaker 1: World War Two beginning.

102
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 2: Okay.

103
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 1: We are at a street called twenty nine Wolverton Street.

104
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: It's a very nice home. So we are focusing on

105
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 1: William and Julia Wallace and I'll tell you more about

106
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 1: them in a little bit. I wanted to show you

107
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,600
Speaker 1: an interesting photos, so I sent you your photos. I bet

108
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,720
Speaker 1: you haven't downloaded them yet, but maybe you have.

109
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,320
Speaker 2: I have not, but let me Okay, so I've got

110
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,400
Speaker 2: it up and I'm seeing I'm assuming William and Julius

111
00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: side by side in this first frame.

112
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,600
Speaker 1: Correct. I wanted you to see the photo of William

113
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: and Julia because I think it illustrates sort of their

114
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,960
Speaker 1: their level of their social stature in life. So William

115
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 1: at the time when all of the starts to happen

116
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 1: is fifty two and Julia is sixty nine. Now, I

117
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: don't think that is the case in these photos necessarily.

118
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 1: Maybe William is fifty two, but Julia, I don't think

119
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: in this photo is sixty nine. There's quite a big

120
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,040
Speaker 1: age difference here, No.

121
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 2: For sure. You know, at least in the photo William

122
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 2: looks to me to be approaching mid seventies. I'm shocked

123
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 2: that he's fifty two in that photo. Now the the

124
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 2: photo of Julia, she looks younger there than sixty nine

125
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:33,719
Speaker 2: for sure.

126
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So William comes home. He's a collections agent for

127
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,919
Speaker 1: Prudential Assurance, so he makes pretty good money. He just

128
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: got home from a day of rounds collecting, and he's

129
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 1: having trouble getting inside. The front door seems to be locked,

130
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 1: and Julia, who is inside, is not responding to his knock. Okay,

131
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: So he sees that the back gate is closed, but

132
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: it's unbolted, which is unusual, and he tries the back door.

133
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,279
Speaker 1: He can't get in there either, it's also locked. So

134
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,200
Speaker 1: there are two neighbors, John and Florence Johnston. They hear

135
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: him knocking, and I think his knocking is getting a

136
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 1: little more frantic, probably because he's annoyed. He can't get

137
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 1: inside and they come in help, so they try the

138
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 1: front door, in the back door again. They finally get

139
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 1: through the back door. This is when they make the discovery.

140
00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,160
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of times I try to lead

141
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: this up to a big mystery of who the victim

142
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: might be. The victim in this case is Julia. I

143
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: mentioned she's sixty nine, and the Johnson's see. Fairly quickly,

144
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 1: I would say that Julia is lying on the floor

145
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: and she's dead, and she is face down on her

146
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: right side, and there is a nine inch diameter pool

147
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: of her own blood. We will assume under her face

148
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: there's also brain matter, and there's bone on the left

149
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: hand side of her face. Above in the front of

150
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: her ear is a two inch wound that penetrates three

151
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 1: inches deep. You can tell that we're going to have

152
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 1: a medical examiner coming up here pretty soon, because we

153
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 1: have some pretty precise things. Florence is very upset, as

154
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,520
Speaker 1: is understandable, and she rushes to Julia. Her body is

155
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 1: still warm, Florence says, And as an investigator on the scene,

156
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: what would this immediately tell you? So far fairly straightforward,

157
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,880
Speaker 1: they get in, they see her dead, on the floor.

158
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 1: She's got gashes on her face and there's blood.

159
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like she's you know, she's received a

160
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 2: devastating blow to the left side of her head that's

161
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,880
Speaker 2: penetrated into her skull. This is why you have the blood, brain,

162
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 2: and bone matter that is surrounding her body there. One

163
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,840
Speaker 2: of the observations that I would be making would be

164
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 2: the blood flows out of that wound. Do they change direction,

165
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 2: indicating that after she starts bleeding, did she reposition like

166
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,600
Speaker 2: she starts bleeding while she's upright, and then she goes

167
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,200
Speaker 2: and is laying a face down. I'd also be paying

168
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,959
Speaker 2: attention to the blood pool. You know, they're saying that

169
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,720
Speaker 2: her body is still warm. That tends to suggest that

170
00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:11,040
Speaker 2: this is a relatively recent death. But the blood also

171
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 2: is indicative of time because as the blood pools outside

172
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,840
Speaker 2: the body, eventually it starts to separate, it starts to coagulate,

173
00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 2: And so if she's been laying there for a period

174
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,479
Speaker 2: of time, then I might expect to see the separation

175
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 2: within the blood pool to indicate, oh, there's a little

176
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 2: bit more time that's past than just what the temperature

177
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 2: of the body is indicating, you know. But the environment

178
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,760
Speaker 2: is also something that is significant. It's you know, eight

179
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,360
Speaker 2: p forty at night in January in Liverpool, I imagine

180
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,520
Speaker 2: it's pretty cold outside. You know, is it warm inside

181
00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 2: the house or is it pretty cool inside the house?

182
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 2: That would have an impact on the assessment of how

183
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,800
Speaker 2: long prior to the discovery of the body she was killed.

184
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a little bit of quick research

185
00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 1: for you to kind of get an indication of those

186
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 1: two things. So the average temperature in January and Liverpool,

187
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 1: I would say it looks like it's between thirty six

188
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 1: and thirty nine degrees fahrenheit. And I also wanted to

189
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,800
Speaker 1: double check it would indeed be very dark at eight

190
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,920
Speaker 1: forty pm in January in Liverpool. So those are two things.

191
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,599
Speaker 1: Usually you want to know more about the autopsy, and

192
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,559
Speaker 1: we're going to have a medical examiner show up here

193
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,679
Speaker 1: pretty soon. I have photos also of the front and

194
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: back door. I do not have photos of Julia's body

195
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,559
Speaker 1: laying there, but I have a pretty big description from

196
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,320
Speaker 1: the medical examiner. So you want me to continue on

197
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 1: with what the neighbors initially see and until the police

198
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 1: come in or where do you want ahead?

199
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 2: Do you think, Yeah, let's get the observation, the initial

200
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,319
Speaker 2: observations and then flow into the autopsy.

201
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,960
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to tell you about Julia and William

202
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: in just a little bit about their interests, which will

203
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 1: probably explain some of the things in their room. This

204
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: is their parlor, so it could be the equivalent of

205
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,280
Speaker 1: their living room. There is a piano that Julia plays.

206
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 1: It's undisturbed. It doesn't seem like there's anything that's been displaced.

207
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: The blinds are drawn and the mantlepiece gas light is lit,

208
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,720
Speaker 1: so we have a lot of gaslights happening around the house.

209
00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 1: Julia sells her wedding ring on and a large brooch,

210
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 1: and there is a rain jacket they'll call a macintosh

211
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,520
Speaker 1: that is Williams, and it's crumpled underneath Julia's body. It's

212
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,439
Speaker 1: blood drenched, according to everybody there, including the medical examiner

213
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,840
Speaker 1: who will come in a little bit. It's also burnt

214
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 1: and there's a fireplace that's going and there are charred

215
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 1: fragments of it near the fireplace. But it's crumpled under

216
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:39,959
Speaker 1: her body.

217
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,920
Speaker 2: And this is William's jacket underneath her body. But it

218
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,160
Speaker 2: appears that part of the jacket got close enough to

219
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 2: the fire to where it either caught fire itself or

220
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 2: was charred because of the heat. Now the fire is

221
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 2: significant because even though it's cold outside, it's going to

222
00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 2: be warm warmer where her body is located. So that

223
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 2: could potentially speed up aspects of time change with you know,

224
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 2: her death, and what we would be looking for the

225
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,439
Speaker 2: jacket being blood drenched. Is it underneath you know, her

226
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 2: head or does she have other bleeding injuries or was

227
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 2: the blood on this jacket prior to her falling down

228
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 2: on it or coming to rest on it. You know,

229
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,079
Speaker 2: I would start looking at did somebody use this jacket

230
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 2: to try to stem the flow of blood from her

231
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: head and then gave up and just left it in place.

232
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you some more information, especially when the

233
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 1: Emmy shows up, and then maybe that'll explain some things.

234
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 1: This is what the initial observations from the neighbors and

235
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,199
Speaker 1: from Williams say. They say there is blood splattered at

236
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,280
Speaker 1: an average they said about four feet and in some

237
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,439
Speaker 1: places seven feet up the wall. One other little note,

238
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 1: Julia plays the piano, William plays of violin his case

239
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,840
Speaker 1: is on an easy chair to the left of the fireplace,

240
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,199
Speaker 1: and there's kind of just blood everywhere, but nothing is displaced,

241
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,160
Speaker 1: which I think they think is going to be key

242
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,440
Speaker 1: coming up here too.

243
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 2: Well, the blood spatter is significant, So if she just

244
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,439
Speaker 2: received a single blow, devastating blow that crushed in her skull,

245
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 2: there wouldn't be this blood spatter. So what that tells

246
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 2: me is that she received multiple blows and some of

247
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,840
Speaker 2: those blows were to what we call a pooled blood source,

248
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 2: probably her head. And then when whatever the weapon is

249
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 2: is impacting that pooled blood source, that's when you get

250
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 2: the spatter. When you say it's ranging from like four

251
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,319
Speaker 2: feet up to seven feet up. Now I would be

252
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 2: assessing those patterns. Is she receiving some blows while she's

253
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 2: upright or does a spatter indicate that the blows were

254
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,080
Speaker 2: curring while she's actually down on the floor. But some

255
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,720
Speaker 2: of I imagine some of what this spatter is is potentially

256
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 2: cast off. So if you have a weapon that is

257
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 2: now getting bloodied and on the upswing, some of that

258
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,079
Speaker 2: blood gets flung off and it can go a significant

259
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 2: distance vertically, even up on the ceiling or behind the offender.

260
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 2: So that's kind of how I'm envisioning what you just

261
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 2: told me about the observations of the blood patterns in

262
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 2: that room. It sounds like she's receiving multiple blows unless

263
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a gunshot, and now the spatter

264
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: would look completely different.

265
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 1: And the Johnsons don't know yet they certainly call the

266
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 1: police quickly. Okay, now we're at a fork in the

267
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 1: road regarding information. We can talk about the Walls's their relationship,

268
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, what they were like, or we can get

269
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 1: the police there sooner and the medical examiner and get

270
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,880
Speaker 1: to the autopsy. So what do you want to do. Do

271
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,920
Speaker 1: you want to do victimology first or do you want

272
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 1: to to get to the medical stuff?

273
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 2: Now? I think at this point I want the medical

274
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,840
Speaker 2: stuff so I can kind of assess what the offender

275
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,000
Speaker 2: did to the victim and then start hearing about the

276
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 2: victimology and go from there.

277
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 1: Okay, here's another fork. When the police come, they start

278
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 1: talking about what's been stolen, some weird things are going

279
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 1: on in the house. Or do we go straight to

280
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,880
Speaker 1: them and he shows up and says these are or

281
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 1: the wounds still going right to emmy?

282
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 2: Yes?

283
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 1: Please, Okay, there's a cop. We don't care about him

284
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,760
Speaker 1: right now, but he'll be important to. His name's Fred Williams,

285
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 1: and he's a constable, so this is not a police

286
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: detective right now. He's the initial person who shows up,

287
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 1: and then they call the medical examiner, and the medical

288
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: examiner is a professor named John Edward McFall, and he

289
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 1: gets there at nine point fifty, which is about an

290
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 1: hour after she's discovered by William and by the Johnstons.

291
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: He's also the one who's going to oversee the post

292
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,720
Speaker 1: warnem examination and also all the blood patterns that are

293
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 1: on the walls and the floor and everywhere else. Okay,

294
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: this is what mcfall's initial impression is. He said that,

295
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 1: you know, of course there's no indication of a struggle.

296
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,960
Speaker 1: And there's an author named Joe Nichol who does a

297
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,000
Speaker 1: really great job summarizing, you know, all of this, including

298
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 1: mcfall's initial description of the forensics. So I'm gonna this

299
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: is from Joe's article, but also you know, this is

300
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: stuff from McFall directly. Almost all of the blood was

301
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: concentrated into the corner of the room where William's violin

302
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,880
Speaker 1: case sits. The violin is on an easy chair to

303
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,880
Speaker 1: the left of the fireplace, so close to the fireplace,

304
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 1: close to where her body was. The forensic says almost

305
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 1: all the spatter was concentrated in the corner of the

306
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 1: room where William's violin case sits on the armchair, with

307
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 1: very scant amounts anywhere else in the entire house except

308
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: small amounts of spray on some papers on a chair,

309
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: and there's a key thing on the toilet rim upstairs,

310
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: in the water closet upstairs, and there is blood on

311
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,439
Speaker 1: a pound treasury note in the middle bedroom, so not

312
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,439
Speaker 1: in the parlor. The rest is entirely concentrated into the

313
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: corner of the room with the violin case. And this

314
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 1: is one more interesting thing that McFall says. He says

315
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 1: that the blood spatter in the parlor creates a soda

316
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: water bottle effect, So he said round spots and partly

317
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,159
Speaker 1: diagonal spots concentrated in front of the parlor chair. He

318
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 1: wonders that if she was sitting there right before she

319
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: was attacked and her head was turned to the right,

320
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,479
Speaker 1: as if she were talking to somebody. So these are

321
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,680
Speaker 1: the initial just you know, observations he made. And then

322
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,880
Speaker 1: he has some initial observations of her body while she's

323
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,440
Speaker 1: lying there.

324
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,160
Speaker 2: Well, the description of the blood spatter where you have

325
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 2: a concentration of circular droplets as well as some diagonal droplets.

326
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: Where are those circular droplets located will be a result

327
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 2: of the blood droplets striking the wall straight on. So

328
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: that's an indication of the height of I'm assuming the

329
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,640
Speaker 2: only bleeding injury is her head, the height her head

330
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,679
Speaker 2: was at at the time it received a blow to

331
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,439
Speaker 2: a pooled blood source. When you have droplets now that

332
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 2: are spraying out, they start striking that wall surface at

333
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: angles and so they form these diagonal stains. So we

334
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 2: can use that as part of a blood pattern interpretation

335
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,000
Speaker 2: to an essence determined roughly in space where her head

336
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,359
Speaker 2: was at the time she received that blow. The critical

337
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 2: information for me is, okay, what height does McFall seeing this?

338
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: Is this down near the floor or is this up higher?

339
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 2: As if she received a blow while she was sitting

340
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,719
Speaker 2: in the chair. His conclusion about her head being turned

341
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: a certain direction as if she were talking to somebody.

342
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,360
Speaker 2: The problem with you know, the human bodies is it's

343
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: very dynamic, you know. So she may have been sitting

344
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,760
Speaker 2: in the chair and recognized offender coming up on her,

345
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 2: and now she's moving as the offender is attacking, and

346
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 2: so that always that dynamic aspect of the offender victim

347
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 2: interaction always impacts our ability to truly reconstruct what's going on.

348
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 2: So I would have to hear more about his observations

349
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 2: and the actual medical findings to see if I agree

350
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 2: with that. But it's it really does sound. With all

351
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 2: the blood and you have the blood spatter concentrated in

352
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 2: the corner near this chair, then that that appears to

353
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 2: where at least you know, the fatal aspect of the

354
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,679
Speaker 2: attack occurred. The other items that you talked about having

355
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: some blood on them are transportable items, and so the

356
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: question is are these items that could have been placed

357
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: there by the offender after Julia was killed or is

358
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,919
Speaker 2: there any indication that Julia had an earlier bleeding in

359
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 2: injury somewhere else in the house and then ultimately ended

360
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 2: up where she was killed.

361
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: And what you're talking about there is, you know the

362
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: violin case which we talked about. There are papers, and

363
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: there's that one pound treasury note that you know is

364
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: found in the middle bedroom, right, and then we have

365
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 1: one other blood that I think is a little confusing, and.

366
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:20,880
Speaker 2: That's in the bathroom, right.

367
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 1: Wasn't that Yeah, and I have photos of that too.

368
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: Okay, good, because you know that that could be the

369
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,439
Speaker 2: offender cleaning up after he's killed Julia.

370
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: Let me get to what they say with the at

371
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: least the autopsy part of this. So he says that

372
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: there are ten diagonal, apparently incized wounds on the left

373
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: side of the back of her head. The left frontal

374
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: bone has pierced the front of her brain. The whole

375
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 1: of the left side of the back of the skull

376
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: was driven in and broken into pieces. These wounds were

377
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: the result of being struck three or four times with

378
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: terrific force by a hard, large headed instrument. First of all,

379
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 1: I mean, can you tell that from those wounds?

380
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 2: Oftentimes yes, you know. So this is when you start

381
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 2: assessing the damage to the skull. Let's say somebody is

382
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 2: being hit in the head with it just a typical hammer,

383
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: you know, one inch round diameter. You can literally see

384
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: the skull get circular punches punched out of it, or

385
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 2: if the hammer hits it off, you know, kind of

386
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: on this on the edge. You know. Now you get

387
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 2: like a half moon effect. When you start dealing with

388
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: something more massive, let's say a sledgehammer. I mean, now

389
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 2: you have that crushing type of injury, so you can

390
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 2: a pathologist can assess, you know, certain characteristics of the weapon,

391
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: both its size as well as features of the weapon sometimes.

392
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's continue on. He talks about time of death,

393
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: and he said that her hands are cold, but her

394
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: body still warm. And he says, based on the presence

395
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: of rigamortis in her neck and her upper part of

396
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: the left arm, as well as the congealment of the

397
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: blood that had pooled around her head, he thinks the

398
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 1: time of death was about six point fifty so this

399
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: would have been two hours before William tried to get

400
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: into the house. I don't know if we've had details

401
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: about rigamoris that detailed like this is where she's stiff,

402
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: and this is why I think it. What do you

403
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: think about his assessment?

404
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's a rough assessment, you know, but you know,

405
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: she's she's been dead long enough to where now you're

406
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: starting to see the rigor form. She's been dead long

407
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 2: enough to wear that blood as I talked about before

408
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 2: starting to congeal. That's what he is observing. The complexity

409
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 2: is is she's near the fire, you know, so things

410
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: are going to speed up, so I would use that

411
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: time of death as just a rough estimate, you know,

412
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: I could not like, let's say, if I find a

413
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: suspect and he's got an alibi up until he does

414
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: a six point fifty, I would be how I can't

415
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 2: use that alibi to eliminate him. She could have been killed,

416
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: you know, at five o'clock, and you'd still see these

417
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: same types of characteristics.

418
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna jump down big time, something I didn't

419
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 1: anticipate doing. Because we have a forensics person who comes

420
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: in the day after this happens, and he is the

421
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: city analyst. His name is William Henry Roberts, and I

422
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: feel like I should go ahead and bring this in

423
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: now so maybe we can close out, you know, the

424
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: forensics and the blood and the autopsy stuff before we

425
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 1: move into more stuff that's going to be speculative. So

426
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: William Henry Roberts comes in and he looks at fifteen

427
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: articles from the crime scene. The raincoat McIntosh on which

428
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: Julia's body has been found is extensively and heavily stained

429
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: with human blood on the right side, both inside and

430
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: out side, and on the upper inner side of the

431
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 1: right sleeve. The outside of the left cuff and a

432
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: large area near the left pocket were similarly stained. The

433
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: bottom right side of the coat is also burned off.

434
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: Blood is found splashed and smeared on two photographs, So

435
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: now we're outside of the We're finally done with the jacket.

436
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: So blood is splashed and smeared on two photographs, and

437
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: the wide end of the violin case, the cover of

438
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: sheet music, a cushion, the corner of a hearth rug,

439
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: and the front of Julia's skirt are all splattered in blood.

440
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: In the primary bedroom, blood is smeared on one of

441
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: the one pound notes in a glasser. It appears that

442
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: a blood stained thumb has been run across this note.

443
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: There is no blood though, on a cash box that

444
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: appears to have been looted, and I have to go

445
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: back up for that, and on any of William's clothing,

446
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: even though they used a sensitive benzendine test, because William

447
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: is going to be on the list of suspects obviously,

448
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: Or there's a sledgehammer that they found in William's chemistry lab.

449
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: He's a chemist at a local university. So they've tested

450
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: what they think are the murder weapons. They've tested suspects clothing,

451
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: and that's where the rest of the blood is found.

452
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: Once you get a forensic s guy in there.

453
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: The amount of blood on the jacket, you know, what

454
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: I would be looking at is how this blood stating

455
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 2: is occurring on the jacket. Is that entirely consistent with

456
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: her just laying on top of the jacket after she's

457
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: been killed, or is there blood stating that indicates that

458
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: potentially her body has been moved or there was other

459
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: interactions between the offender and the victim that costs additional

460
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: stating on this jacket. Why is the jacket even there

461
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: in the first place, and then of course why is

462
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: it charred? Now some of these other items that have

463
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: blood on it, again it comes down to, well, how

464
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 2: are they positioned in the crimes with where the blood

465
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: spatter is, where the victim ultimately is found. Is there

466
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: any indication that, you know, the victim, let's say she's upright,

467
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: and she's she's receiving blows as she's trying to fight

468
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: off the offender, and now you have some blood stating

469
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: occurring on some of these other objects. So this analyst,

470
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 2: you know, his observations of the blood patterns, you know,

471
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: it's not giving me enough information of the evidence in

472
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: sits you at the crime scene for me to kind

473
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: of get a better feel of what's going on with Julia.

474
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: You know, the fact that her ring is still on,

475
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: she's got a broach on, there's light ransacking. You know.

476
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: Does this sound like it's a financially motivated crime right now?

477
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: It really doesn't. And the prior observations of what he

478
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 2: called ten incisive you know, wounds to the you know,

479
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: left back side of her head, that's the wrong use

480
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: of that term. Incisive wounds are created by a sharp

481
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: edged weapon. Now if it's something like a hatch or

482
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: an axe, sure, but chances are those are what would

483
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: technically today be called lacerations where the skin has been

484
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: split because of the result of blows. And everything else

485
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: about how he's describing her injuries indicate that I believe

486
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 2: all her injuries to her head are a result of

487
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: multiple blows.

488
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get to one other piece of blood evidence,

489
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: which is the toilet rim upstairs. So I have a

490
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: wide shot, a close up shot of this blood, which

491
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: they say has been congealed. There is also a map

492
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: of the whole house, which is sprawling I would say, so,

493
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: I guess once we start talking about the entry and

494
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: who has accessed, you can look at the map, or

495
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: you want to just get done with blood.

496
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just get done with the blood, all right.

497
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: So I'm looking at the toilet and there is a

498
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: bright red circular drop that is on the right front

499
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: top surface of the rim of the toy toilet. The

500
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: seat is up, you know, the toilet itself, the water

501
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: is you know, you could see where there's like staining

502
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: as a result of algae and stuff. And then there's

503
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: a close up shot which is again just showing what

504
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: appears to be a mostly circular drop of blood. And

505
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: what this tells me is that this is just a

506
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: single drop of blood that struck the toilet straight on.

507
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: There's an object that has blood on it, could be

508
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: a person, and a single drop of blood just dropped

509
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: down onto that toilet, and not from a great height,

510
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: because I'm not seeing scalloping around the edge of this.

511
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: It looks like almost a perfect circular drop. So that's

512
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: all it is. It's just one droplet of dripped blood.

513
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just no way that you would use

514
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: the term congealed with with a droplet like this. Basically,

515
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: this blood would dry very quickly.

516
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So later on, when we do end up having

517
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: a trial, the professor will get on the stand and

518
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: he'll say that, aside from the fact that he's not

519
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: sure if his assessment of the rigor mortis was one

520
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: hundred percent accurate on the time frame, he said that

521
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: he and the detectives walked freely from the parlor to

522
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: other rooms of the house. So I think the insinuation

523
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: here is that it's possible that they transported some of

524
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: this blood to different areas, and they can't be specific

525
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: about that. But he talks a little bit about the

526
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: toilet rim and he gives some details about how much

527
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: blood that is. I remember reading somewhere maybe it's menstrual blood.

528
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: Julia was sixty nine. I don't think so, but you know,

529
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: who knows. There's just sort of looking at all of

530
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: these different options. But you're right, I mean, this isn't

531
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: you're saying that this is not a sign of a

532
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: big cleanup or something in this bathroom necessarily, No.

533
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: You know, this is in fact, you really can't even

534
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: draw any type of conclusion outside it's a single droplet

535
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: of dripped blood, and there's this, you know, whose is it?

536
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: You know, today we would be able to determine that

537
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: and is it coming from Julia or is it coming

538
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: from somebody else? You know, something that you just brought

539
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: up is a significant thing. There's a reason why we

540
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: freeze crime scenes and prevent people from wandering around. It's

541
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: because there can be contamination that can throw off an

542
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: interpretation of what happened. So, given what you just told me,

543
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: is it possible that one of the responders dealing with

544
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: the crime scene had to go use the bathroom and

545
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: is now leaving that little bit of dripped blood off

546
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: of I doubt if they were using gloves and off

547
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: of the hand or whatever, you know. But it's also

548
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: possible that you have the offender, you know, going into

549
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: this bathroom to clean up, and whether it comes off

550
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 2: of his hand or a weapon, you know, you have

551
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: a drop of blood from Julia that gets transferred into

552
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: the bathroom.

553
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the strange circumstances that the police

554
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: constable notes when he gets there, which is around nine

555
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: to ten, so he got there twenty five minutes, it

556
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: sounds like after this initial discovery. So here are the

557
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: things where where we start putting together a motive, I think,

558
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: and then I'll tell you about Julia and William in

559
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: a little bit. So, as I said before, no signs

560
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: of forced entry, no other indicators of burglary, but some

561
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: kind of weird stuff. There's a cabinet door in the

562
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: living room that's broken, and a half crown and two

563
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: shilling pieces are on the floor, okay, which is not

564
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: very much money. William keeps his insurance collection box, so

565
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: you know I told you before that was his job

566
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: as he would go and collect insurance money. He keeps

567
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: his insurance collection box stowed on the top shelf of

568
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: a seven foot tall bookcase. He says that it's been

569
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: looted for four pounds, which is almost five hundred dollars today,

570
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: but there are no bloodied marks on it, and Constable

571
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: Williams is thinking to himself, why would a robber kill

572
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: a woman try to loot the house, and then put

573
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: the cash box back on the top shelf. And so

574
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: if you look at that photo that you had pointed

575
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 1: out earlier, you'll see it doesn't sound they're saying that

576
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: this is not in disarray. This looks like a pretty

577
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: messy room. But you know this is this is the

578
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: state of the room where the cash box was kept.

579
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: Sure the idea that this this cash box, which is

580
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: very nondescript, that the offender recognized it was something that

581
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: would have some money in it and so takes it down,

582
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: takes a little bit of money out, and then puts

583
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: it back. And then you have a cabinet door that

584
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: you know has been broken and a few coins scattered

585
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: on the floor. This is, you know, like, in my

586
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: experience processing burglary scenes, this seems inconsistent with an offender

587
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: who is now trying, you know, desperately trying to find

588
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: you know, valuables. It almost sounds more like the offender

589
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: knows exactly where the money's at the fact that you

590
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: don't have a lot taken suggests to me that possibly

591
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: this is a staged crime scene where now somebody like

592
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: William is trying to make it look like an intruder

593
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: came in and was a financially motivated crime, but he

594
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: doesn't want to lose all that money. So I'm starting

595
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: to get suspicious of William.

596
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's continue on. Keep your suspicions to yourself,

597
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: pull holes, Not really, you can say it if you want. Okay.

598
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: They go upstairs and the gaslights are on, which would

599
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 1: be normal. They find Julia's purse. The purse has not

600
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: been taken or looted. There are pound notes that are

601
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: stuffed in a glass jar in the bedroom. They're still there.

602
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: I mentioned there's like a blood, a little bit of

603
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: blood I think on the outside of the jar of that,

604
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: but that's about it. So this is what I think

605
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: was interesting, A good observation from the police constable. He

606
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: said there is a clean but recently used nail brush

607
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, so it's one of those brush with

608
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: the bristles where you would clean your nails off, and

609
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: you know it's wet. He said that in the front

610
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: spare bedroom, the bed sheets are totally disordered. There are

611
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: pillows and clothes that are strewn all over the floor,

612
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: but nobody opened any drawers. And Julia's jewelry is tucked

613
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: away in a cabinet. So this is even more suspicious.

614
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: And you can look at the layout if you want to.

615
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: At some point this is not a ransacked crime scene

616
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: at all, and with such focus, you know the damage

617
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: to the cabinet door, the cash box being put back

618
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: and nothing else is being taken or other drawers being opened,

619
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 2: entirely inconsistent with an offender who's going to go throughout

620
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: a house. And you know, experienced burglars can size up

621
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: really quickly. Okay, where most likely am I going to

622
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: find things that are worth taking? You know? And oftentimes

623
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: they'll go into the master bedroom. They into the master

624
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 2: bathroom today, you know, the master closet. This is where

625
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: you'll find the jewelry, you know. So this is not

626
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: a financially motivated crime, even though it appears that there

627
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: was a an attempt to make it look that way,

628
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: and the homicide occurred in that you know, where Julia's

629
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: body was found, and it's just did did violence start

630
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: somewhere else and then it did during her attempt? Did

631
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: she run to that room? You know that in that

632
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: front room is looks like it's right next to the

633
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: front door of the house, So you have to walk

634
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: it down. You have to go through the vestibule, walk

635
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: down the hallway, and then go to the right to

636
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: get into that front room. I would consider the possibility

637
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: that somebody knocked on the front door and you know,

638
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: Julia opened it and now he rushes in and kills Julia.

639
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: But then why this is where I think, you know,

640
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: learning the victimology becomes important because because this appears that

641
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: the offender's intent was to kill Julia and wasn't coming

642
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: in to burgerize, you know, to basically take items of value,

643
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: it's not a financially motivated crime in my opinion.

644
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's keep moving through this. Okay, Now, I think

645
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: we might be through all of the forensics and the

646
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: things that are missing and not missing, and let's go

647
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: ahead and get to the couple. Since you're suspicious of

648
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: William already, we'll see if you are rightly. So it

649
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: seems like they're a happy couple. Of course we hear

650
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: that all of the time they were happy and they

651
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: kept to themselves. They were married sixteen years. William I

652
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: showed you the photo. He's lanky, he's eccentric, he's worldly,

653
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of different disciplines. In nineteen

654
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: oh seven, he developed a severe kidney issue, which impeded

655
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: his ability to move around quickly and compelled him to

656
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: come back to London after they had been doing a

657
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: lot of traveling. Then he became a lecturer in chemistry

658
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: at the Liverpool Technical Institute, and then he was doing

659
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: what he currently does also, which is being a collector

660
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: for an insurance company. Julia was an accomplished pianist. She

661
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: sounds so interesting. She was a painter, needle point craftswoman.

662
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: She was a you know, just sort of like an interesting,

663
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: well rounded person overall. Once we get into the circumstances

664
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: of the police are starting to suspect William and what

665
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: he says happens. So that night William goes down to

666
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: the station with the constable at the station, he describes

667
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: some of the things that have been happening. He says,

668
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: over the past two days. You tell me what makes

669
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: sense here. This is sort of convoluted. The day before

670
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: the murder, which is January nineteenth, he was in a

671
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: chess tournament because he's into chess and he plays the violin,

672
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: and he has all these different interests. When he gets

673
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: to the chess tournament, which is about seven forty five

674
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: or so, there's a guy there named Captain Samuel Betty,

675
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 1: and he says, somebody gave you a message. Somebody named R. M.

676
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: Quol True had called for William at this cafe where

677
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: this tournament was being held. About seven fifteen, thirty minutes earlier.

678
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: According to the guy, the captain who gave him this note,

679
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: this guy R. M. Qualtrow wanted to schedule a meeting

680
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: and regarding a new insurance policy for his daughter, and

681
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: this would not have been unusual at the time. He

682
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: requested William meet him at a particular spot the next

683
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: day at seven thirty pm. So this would have been

684
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: when Julia was murdered, at about an hour and twenty

685
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: minutes before she was discovered by William and the neighbors. Okay,

686
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: so he says, meet me at this place. This is

687
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: what the note says. So the day that the murder happens,

688
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: William collected his insurance payments. He has dinner with Julia

689
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: about six o'clock, and then he heads out to go

690
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: meet this guy. And according to him, he left the

691
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: about six forty five. He was wearing a raincoat and

692
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: walked a third of a mile to a church. He

693
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: probably gets lost, but there are tram operators at two

694
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: different locations that help him. So he's actually out there,

695
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: you know, trying to catch these different trams to get

696
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: to this location. He gets lost, he asks a lot

697
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: of people for directions, and he's looking, you know, treet signs,

698
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: he's at local post offices. He's kind of all over

699
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: the place, and he wonders if this guy had written

700
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: down the wrong address for the appointment. He gives up

701
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: at about eight ten. He gets on a tram and

702
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: he heads home. So police take down the statement and

703
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: they examine his clothing and his boots and his hands

704
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: for blood. They can't find anything. He is still their

705
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: prime suspect, and over the next nine days he gives

706
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: them three more statements. So what do you think about

707
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: this alibi? A mystery man says, meet me at this

708
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: myster replace far away on the night that his wife

709
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: is murdered.

710
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: So just a little bit of a statement analysis. He

711
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: has dinner with the victim at six o'clock, claims that

712
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: he leaves at six forty five in the evening, and

713
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: now he's going out to try to find this this

714
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: man and is lost and is now interacting with a

715
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: bunch of people. Sounds like he's trying to set up

716
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: witnesses to support this alibi. You know, you have to

717
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: you have to dig into this. From an investigator standpoint is,

718
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: can you track down who this RM coteur is and

719
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 2: verify that there was actually an arrangement. Also this note,

720
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: you know it's the Captain Betty who's the one that

721
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: is passing this message on from couture to William. You know,

722
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 2: youve got to get his statements. And then the next

723
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: three statements, how can assistant are they relative to this

724
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: initial statement? You know, William is now giving three more statements.

725
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: How are those details changing? And are those details changing

726
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: as William is assessing, you know, what the circumstances of

727
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: the case are, and he's trying to, you know, come

728
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: up with something to cover himself. And right now I

729
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 2: can't say, you know, William's responsible or not, but this

730
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 2: initial statement is sounding suspicious to me, where he's just

731
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: trying to set up an alibi. And I think Julia

732
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: is killed between six and six forty five roughly, because

733
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: you know the time the time of death estimates by

734
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: the pathologists and stuff again, as I mentioned before, are

735
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: really rough.

736
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: Estimates, absolutely, and the medical examiner will clarify that later

737
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: on and say, you know, this is my best guess,

738
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: but he does revise it back to six o'clock essentially,

739
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: so the day after the murder two witnesses come forward.

740
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: One is a woman named Sarah Jane Draper. She is

741
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: the housekeeper. And there's a kid named Alan Close. He's

742
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: fourteen and he's the milk boy. Remember those. So this

743
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: is what the housekeeper says because they're wondering about the weapon.

744
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: She says that a foot long piece of iron that

745
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: generally leaned against the fireplace in the parlor where Julia

746
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: was killed is gone, and there is also a nine

747
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: inch poker that is missing from the kitchen fireplace. You know.

748
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: She also says that the front bedroom where I described

749
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: all of the bedding was out of place, that this

750
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: would have never happened under Julia's watch. Everything was neat

751
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: and proper. So, you know, again, we're in a time

752
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: period where there's fireplaces in every room, and there are

753
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: weapons in every room, and there's axes, and in this case,

754
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: we've got pokers, so you know, and we've had just

755
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 1: decades worth of cases where you have things that people

756
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: per zoom or the weapons and they've gone missing, and

757
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: they go, wait, where is that wrench, fireplace poker butcher knife?

758
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: Well, and those two potential weapons, the fireplace poker which

759
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: is only nine inches long and then you have this

760
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 2: length of iron, and there doesn't appear that there's more

761
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: description to what it is. But the ten linear wounds

762
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: that the pathologist notes on Julia entirely consistent with being

763
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: hit multiple times with a relatively narrow and potentially lightweight

764
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 2: weapon like the poker. And then you potentially have with

765
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: this piece of iron, which sounds like it's a more

766
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: massive and longer weapon that could have been used to

767
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: finish her off, and that would be very much in

768
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: line with the damage done to her skull, where now

769
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: you have the brain and skull fragments, you know, being

770
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: scattered around her head or at least where the blows

771
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: were occurring, and you know, two inches wide, three inches deep.

772
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: It could also be the end of something like that

773
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: piece of iron just being thrust into her head.

774
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Well, we'll come back to the weapons in

775
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: a little bit. They are anxious to try to find

776
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: these weapons, the milk boy. So this is what the

777
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: milk boy says, And then you're gonna have to tell

778
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: me about the reliability of witnesses regarding time. I don't

779
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: doubt that Alan knows the circumstances in the right order.

780
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: I wonder about the time he says he saw Julia

781
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: the day of the murder, at six forty five pm.

782
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: He says he dropped off milk at the house and

783
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: then he stopped by the Johnson's house next door at

784
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: thirty one Wolverton Street to give them milk. He comes

785
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: back and he collects the empty jugs from Julia, and

786
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: she told him that she had been ill with wronchitis.

787
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: So that's the thing that the milk boy contributes. So

788
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: if we believe his time, then she's alive, you know,

789
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: at six forty five to seven o'clock. I don't know

790
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: how long that route was, but we might find out

791
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: more when we get into trial.

792
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 2: And I guess I just, you know, need to know

793
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: how Alan knows what time he's at Julia's house. Is

794
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: that does he have a watch on? You know, is

795
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: this or is he just estimating because you know, he

796
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 2: knows his route and how you know what time he

797
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: left to start delivering milk, and he would have been

798
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 2: at Julia's house at six forty five. So it's really

799
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: kind of drilling down on the veracity of Alan's recollection

800
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: of that time that he saw Julia live.

801
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: The information I have is that there will be a

802
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: defense and they will question poor fourteen year old kid

803
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: on the stand. He says he might have seen Julia

804
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: live between six thirty and six forty five, So either

805
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: he had a watch and he just wasn't sure of

806
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: the time, or you're right, he was estimating. He's done

807
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: this route of gazillion times and he knows what time

808
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: he was supposed to be done, So you know, I mean,

809
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: this plays kind of into William's alibi because the police

810
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: start running some practice runs on could he have done

811
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: all of this? Because there were witnesses who saw him

812
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: on trams, so the timing is important, and eventually Alan

813
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: will say, well, I know it was between six thirty

814
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: and six forty five, but still, you know, you've got

815
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: people who say Alan said definitely six forty five, so

816
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: he must have been wearing a watch. But you've got

817
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 1: the defense eventually will shake him a little bit.

818
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: Sure, and if there's are there witnesses of Allan that

819
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 2: can corroborate his movements during that timeframe.

820
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: Well, presumably the Johnstons because he dropped off milk. However,

821
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: I don't see whether or not they answered the door,

822
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: so he might have left the milk on the stupid.

823
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 1: They were home at eight fifty when William comes knocking.

824
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so let's say we know that Julia is

825
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: found dead at eight fifty, So now we have a

826
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 2: window of six forty five to eight fifty. The homicide

827
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: itself will not take long, that's a matter of a

828
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: few minutes, you know. So now it is reconstructing William's

829
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: movements per these other witnesses and seeing, well, how could

830
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: he have done all all these movements after killing Julia

831
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: around six forty five.

832
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: Well before the police get to that, they have a complication,

833
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: which is William's second statement where he has an idea

834
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: about who actually did this. There are two people that

835
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: he knows that he feels like, you know, had the

836
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: potential here and they get drawn into this too. So

837
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: on his second statement he says that there is a

838
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: twenty two year old named Richard Gordon, so we go

839
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: by Gordon Perry, and then another one who is a

840
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: thirty year old named Joseph Caleb Marsden, so we kind

841
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: of go by Perry and Marsden here. Both men are

842
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: former colleagues of Williams at the insurance company. So in

843
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight, so this is about three years ago.

844
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: William says he discovered that Perry Gordon Perry had been

845
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: skimming money from clients. He also knows that Joseph Marsden

846
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: was let go for financial irregularities, so probably petty thieving.

847
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: And he says that they are viable suspects because number one,

848
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: they're bad people. Sounds like, you know, there's people who

849
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: would take money. But also because they knew William's schedule

850
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: because they knew the collecting schedule kind of like with

851
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 1: the milk boy. They know the collecting schedule of his company,

852
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: so they know the layout of the house because they

853
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: had been to the house before. They also knew where

854
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: he had stored those payments on that really tall shelf

855
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: in the cash box. So he said, I think that

856
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: they went there to score money and you know, ran

857
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: into Julia, ended up having to kill her. And then

858
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: I have an explanation for the guy, and I have

859
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: to keep looking at his pronunciation. I have an explanation

860
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: for who Qualtrow is. Also, do you think about these

861
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: two guys.

862
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm demonstrating a bias against William right now, but

863
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: these these are just two individuals that he's pulling out

864
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 2: of his past that have some criminal element to him,

865
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: you know, and understands, you know, the job, but what

866
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: happened inside this crime scene doesn't add up with these

867
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: two guys coming in looking to financially profit from it.

868
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: You know, there's just too much focus on the homicide

869
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: of Julia for me to buy that these two guys

870
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 2: are there initially for financial purposes and then just abandon

871
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 2: it because Julia ends up confronting them. I don't know,

872
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 2: I'm skeptical of that.

873
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let me explain Qualtrow and this is a real person.

874
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: His name was Richard James Qualtrow. He has an alibi,

875
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: he's not involved with this. The implication is that these

876
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: two guys, Perry and Marsden, had used this client's name

877
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: as a ruse, you know, to draw away William so

878
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: that they could go and rob him and then presumably

879
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: kill his wife. But William knew this guy too, so

880
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: it's not like, you know, a random name that William

881
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: wouldn't have known. If William's guilty, like you believe, then

882
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: he is trying to set potentially these two guys up

883
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: also because he comes up with these names pretty quickly.

884
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: So this Qualtro is our w Qualtrow, who's the one

885
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: that supposedly gave the message to captain through that captain

886
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 2: in order to meet with William the next day, the

887
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: next evening.

888
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: Right, so the same guy who didn't show up because

889
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: this wasn't a real meeting and it was a ruse

890
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: to draw William out. And you know, my point with

891
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: this is that, yes, these two guys knew who that

892
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: person was because he was a client at the insurance company,

893
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,479
Speaker 1: but so did William because William also worked there.

894
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 2: Sure, and so they're trying to draw William out to

895
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: meet with this you know, set up this fake meeting.

896
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: So now William's not at home and they're going to

897
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: go in and take everything they possibly can, but they don't,

898
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 2: and then they killed Julia in the process.

899
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know it's so interesting because we really

900
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: could go on and on about Gordon and Marsden and

901
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: what their motives could be. Neither of them, I mean,

902
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: both of them are kind of into petty crimes. Nobody's

903
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: really had anything serious. Marsden was home at the flu

904
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: by himself, which is a great alibi or a terrible one.

905
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: And you know, Gordon said he was with his girlfriend

906
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: and she backed him up, and that he visited somebody

907
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 1: else in relatives and they backed him up. So over

908
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: the last one hundred year years, less than one hundred years,

909
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: fewer than one hundred years, you've had people who have said,

910
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: maybe these guys are the ones who did it, but

911
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: the police really never thought so. They really felt like

912
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: this was Marsden had no motivation, and neither did Gordon.

913
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: Exactly what you're saying, based on what they saw taken

914
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: or not taken, especially Paul, if they knew his route,

915
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't they know that he was going to be back home,

916
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: you know, at a certain time, and especially if they

917
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: sent him someplace far flung, they would have to know

918
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: it was going to take him this long to get

919
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: home from a meeting once he realized this meeting wasn't

920
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: going to happen. I mean, I would just think that

921
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: they would have thought they'd have all the time in

922
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: the world if they planned it, to take whatever they wanted,

923
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: and yet they didn't, right.

924
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: Well, and also, if they're planning this far ahead and

925
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: they knew William, they most certainly must have expected that

926
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 2: Julia would be home. Yeah, you know, so there was

927
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: an inconsistency, and that's where anytime you see an inconsistency

928
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: that is a red flag. You would think that to

929
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,959
Speaker 2: commit to this crime, they would have chosen a time

930
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: in which they knew that both William and Julia would

931
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: be gone.

932
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think so. Yeah, I think most people

933
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: now know, you know that that whole thing around them

934
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: is falling apart. Let me tell you about weapons that

935
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: were one that was discovered around the time of the murder,

936
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: and then one that was discovered just decades later. And

937
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: this probably won't help William's case with you at all,

938
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: but they find a small axe in a basket under

939
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: the stairs. It was covered or hidden, I don't know

940
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 1: what we want to even think about that under old clothing,

941
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: but it is determined not to be the murder weapon.

942
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: They must have tested for blood and you know it

943
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: came out negative. But on top of that, he does

944
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: have an insurance policy on Julia. But it's maybe about

945
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: thirteen thousand dollars, not very.

946
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 2: Much at all, you know, sure, you know, well, it

947
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like the small as is probative at all. Right,

948
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 2: and then of course you know he's profiting from his

949
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: wife's death as a result of the insurance. You know, Now,

950
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: it's well, what's going on in William's life? Is he,

951
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: you know, so desperate for money that he's willing to

952
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 2: kill his wife or what is a relatively small insurance policy?

953
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 2: Or is there something else going on in William's life

954
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: that is maybe better motivation for him to kill Julia.

955
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: Let me draw you back to one more weapon theory

956
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: and then we can talk a little bit more about that.

957
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: So the author that I told you about, Joe Nickel,

958
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: he found out that in about the nineteen mid nineteen thirties,

959
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: a few years after this happened, that new tenants moved

960
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: in and they wanted to install electricity, so they removed

961
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: the stove that was there in the kitchen. When they did,

962
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: they found an iron bar wedge between the wall and

963
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: the hearth. Now we don't know anything about it, but

964
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: Joe Nichol and I think rightly so, believes this must

965
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: have been the murder weapon. The missing iron bar, which

966
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm picturing as sort of like a crowbar. Maybe I

967
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: don't know if there was a curved in or anything,

968
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,919
Speaker 1: but that's what I was sort of picturing. This foot

969
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: long that was missing from the fireplace according to the housekeeper.

970
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: So Joe Nichol says he shoved it behind the stove

971
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: and that's you know, where it stayed.

972
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: Did they turn that into law enforcement? It seems strange

973
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: to me that somebody remodeling is going, oh, we found

974
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 2: this iron bar and it becomes aware that potentially is

975
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: suspicious because a homicide had occurred in the house. Is

976
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: that what's going on?

977
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: Well, this is about probably about four or five years

978
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: later after all of this happened, So this is quite

979
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: a bit of time afterward and the case comes to

980
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: a conclusion. So no, I mean that doesn't show up.

981
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: That showed up specifically in Joe's research, not in our research.

982
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: So I think this was, you know, a story that

983
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: just sort of they said this seems likely because it

984
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: just ultimately it doesn't sound like they ever found the

985
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: fireplace poker.

986
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: I've seen you know, bludgeonings with you know, similar type

987
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: of weapons in which the offender fails to penetrate the

988
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 2: skull or fracture of the skull, you know, and basically

989
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 2: it's causing bleeding injuries because when this type of weapon

990
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: strikes the scalp, the skin splits, it creates those lacerations

991
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: and there could be a lot of blood. And in

992
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 2: something like the Golden State killer case and one of

993
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 2: the homicides, actually a couple of the homicides, he switches

994
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: from a lightweight, narrow weapon to a much more massive

995
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 2: weapon to finish the victims off. That's what I think

996
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 2: is potentially going on here with Julia, where the maybe

997
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 2: initial blows those ten incisive injuries that the pathologists noted

998
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: on her head, It's probably consistent with this this fireplace poker.

999
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 2: But then he goes to the more massive iron bar. Now,

1000
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: the one that is discovered behind the stove, is it

1001
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 2: the one that was used to kill Julia? At this point,

1002
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 2: it's just absolute speculation unless it still exists and you know,

1003
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: blood is on it and we could do DNA testing

1004
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: to show it.

1005
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: Well, let's get to the timeline, because this is what

1006
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 1: leads to his arrest. The police retrace what he says

1007
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: his root was, and we do have people who witnessed him,

1008
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, on these different trams. And what's interesting is

1009
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: they are disagreeing with you on one point. They said,

1010
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: if we believe Alan the milk Boy, and he was

1011
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: seen at six forty five when you add in the

1012
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: walk to the tram station, the first tram station, all

1013
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: the tram operators when they say they saw him when

1014
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: he returned back home. They do this special math, and

1015
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: it turns out that William only has five minutes to

1016
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: kill his wife and then clean all traces of the

1017
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: blood from himself off. But then we have that jacket,

1018
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: and then you've already said that you can kill somebody

1019
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: in five seconds, let alone five minutes is not that

1020
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: big of a thing.

1021
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 2: I'm not overly concerned about that space of time at all,

1022
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 2: you know, especially if he's let's say he's wearing that

1023
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 2: blood stained jacket that is found underneath Julia, then that

1024
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: jacket in essence is a shield. Most people think that

1025
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 2: when you have these types of homicides that the offender

1026
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: must just be covered in blood. No, they might have

1027
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 2: a few drops of blood, or there may be some

1028
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: spat or low down on their pants, legs if they're

1029
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: bludgeting somebody whose head is down on the floor. But typically,

1030
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: you know, the offenders walk away from these types of

1031
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: crimes with minimal amount of blood evidence on them. That

1032
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 2: jacket may have been a perfect shield. And now he's

1033
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: leaving it behind, you know, and because he recognizes it's

1034
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: got blood on it. So that just adds up from

1035
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 2: my perspective, you know, And I have to rely upon

1036
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: these original investigators for how they, you know, calculated out

1037
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: his move. But if he has five or ten minutes

1038
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: he could commit this homicide, he could generally get cleaned up,

1039
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: and then that he's on the he's on the road,

1040
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: and he's already thought of how he's going to establish

1041
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: his alibi, you know. So that would suggest that there's

1042
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: a level of pre planning, you know, and he's also

1043
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: taking the time to stage the crime scene to make

1044
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: it look like there was some modest financial gain that

1045
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 2: the offender got the intruder got. So no, I mean

1046
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: they found a block of time in which they can't

1047
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: account for, and so it's possible that, you know, the

1048
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: timeline still fits with William being able to commit this crime.

1049
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: And you know, we already were questioning the milk boy,

1050
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: and then you've got to question all of these tram operators,

1051
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, the people who have seen him. If everybody's

1052
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: one minute off, that buys him an extra seven minutes.

1053
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know this timeline where you have

1054
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: the milk boy, you have tram operators, you have William

1055
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: giving certain statements. You know, I think it's all just

1056
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: it's very loose. I just don't see where you're going

1057
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: to get things down to the minute. You know, it's

1058
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: probably going to be down to ten minutes or fifteen

1059
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: minutes one way or the other.

1060
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: Yep, And I think that's what we kind of come

1061
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: down to. There's debate over the locks. The locks on

1062
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: the front and the back are bad. On the doors.

1063
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,919
Speaker 1: Could anybody have gotten in there unless you had a key?

1064
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: Was Julia able to there's so much debate over that

1065
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter because she could have just opened

1066
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: the door absolutely. I mean, you know, if these are strangers.

1067
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: So that's a little silly to a certain extent. And

1068
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: then you know there is Professor McFall who goes, listen,

1069
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't give you an exact time of death.

1070
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: And there is the other issues. So you're talking about

1071
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: a tight timeline. According to William, that gives him a

1072
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: lot of wiggle room. And the prosecutor doesn't have any

1073
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: other real evidence. And also Paul, they don't have a motive,

1074
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: which you know, jurys want a motive. There just does

1075
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: not seem to be a big motive here. The defense says, William,

1076
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: as I said, doesn't have a motive. He is very proper.

1077
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean, he is a professor. He is not a

1078
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: frenzied person. There's no evidence that he made the phone call.

1079
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: You know, that was the beginning of this ruse. You

1080
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: said that he believed that there were witnesses who said

1081
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: the person who made the phone call to the captain

1082
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: who took the note down for William was not William.

1083
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 2: Sure.

1084
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how you can testify to that,

1085
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: but that's what they say. And they said because of

1086
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: William's kidney condition, he was basically not able to do

1087
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: all of this physically able to do all of this stuff.

1088
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's actually true or not, but

1089
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: that's the defens's theory.

1090
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that I don't buy at all. You know,

1091
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: he's a fifty two year old man. He can most

1092
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 2: certainly swing a fireplace poker or this iron bar. You know,

1093
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 2: the victim is sixty nine year old woman. And you know,

1094
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: motive it could be as simple as they got into

1095
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 2: an argument.

1096
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and.

1097
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 2: He flies off the handle as as you know, I

1098
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: always go back, you know, to the core of the case,

1099
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 2: which is the crime scene and what happened to the victim.

1100
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: And as I'm hearing about the case, I think I'm

1101
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 2: stronger than ever thinking that you know, William killed Julia,

1102
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: and you know there's this isn't a sexually motivated crime,

1103
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: this is not a financially motivated crime. You know, bludgeoning

1104
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 2: often is a result of a kind of like an

1105
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: angry type of anger, retaliatory type of offender, and William's

1106
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 2: statements and and all that just I'm just not buying it.

1107
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 2: I I right now am kind of really you know,

1108
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 2: tunnel vision on William at this point.

1109
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: Okay, what do you think the jury's verdict is going

1110
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: to be, Because we're at that point.

1111
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's almost like a coin toss with

1112
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: these types of cases, because I know, you know, with

1113
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: the lack of good forensic evidence that we would have today,

1114
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, it's the circumstances you could see where a

1115
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 2: jurors would just quit going there isn't a case here,

1116
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: there's lack of probable cause even for a rest. But

1117
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 2: then we're also dealing with this timeframe and we're dealing

1118
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 2: with you know, England and the Liverpool area, and you know,

1119
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 2: and you know better than I in terms of you know,

1120
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: how jurors you know, would be thinking about, you know,

1121
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 2: a case such as this in that region.

1122
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: Well, if you pretend that none of our forensics really

1123
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: exists today except perhaps like if you go back to

1124
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one fingerprinting, there were no fingerprints. It sounds

1125
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: like for them to compare to there were no witnesses,

1126
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: there's no murder weapon that they can identify, there's no

1127
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 1: blood on him, and he has what could be or

1128
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: could not be a good alibi, then this should be

1129
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: what a non guilty you know, should he be acquitted

1130
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: or no?

1131
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 2: I would just say he's a suspect and they haven't

1132
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 2: developed probable cause for a rest. Okay, That's that's where

1133
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 2: you know I would be. And so you know, if this,

1134
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 2: if I were a juror sitting on and this is

1135
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: all that they're presenting, I'd go, well, yeah, I think

1136
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: there's a there's enough reason to suspect that he's responsible,

1137
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 2: but I can't vote guilty. And now I think this.

1138
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 2: You know, here in the United States, you know, the

1139
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 2: people run the risk of an acquittal and William could

1140
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 2: never be retried for murder.

1141
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: Okay, the jury comes back and they find him guilty

1142
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: any sentenced to hang.

1143
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: Oh good god, Okay, I guess I expected that that

1144
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 2: was going to be. You know where this is going.

1145
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 2: It's it's just as much as I suspect William, I

1146
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: just don't think they have a strong enough case to

1147
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 2: take his life.

1148
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: Well, it turns out that the Court of Criminal Appeals

1149
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: agrees with you and overturned the verdict.

1150
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 2: That's good.

1151
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: They said the evidence cannot support a guilty verdict. This

1152
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: is the only this is only the third time in

1153
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: the history of the English Court of Criminal Appeal that

1154
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: they've completely overturned a death sentence and a guilty verdict.

1155
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: So so here's what's interesting about William moving forward. He

1156
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 1: tries to go back to his normal life, but he has,

1157
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, people hounding him all the time. He's described

1158
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: in the newspapers, and to his face it sounds like

1159
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,959
Speaker 1: as a sex maniac, a vampire, a sadist, a mad

1160
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 1: scientist who preferred human beings to guinea pigs. Of course,

1161
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: the customers don't want to have anything to do with him.

1162
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: He gets hate mail, he gets death threats, he ends up,

1163
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, initially taking a clerical job, and then he

1164
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: ends up moving out of Liverpool. And I would think

1165
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 1: that he would sort of fade off into the darkness.

1166
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 1: He does not. So. In May of nineteen thirty two

1167
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: he publishes article in a magazine called John Bull and

1168
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 1: it is titled I Know the Murderer and this is

1169
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: what he says. The murderer followed my wife into the

1170
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: sitting room, and as she bent down and lit the

1171
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: gas fire, he struck her, possibly with a spanner, which

1172
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: is a wrench. He had now to kill her. To

1173
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: strike her again while she lay on the floor and

1174
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: him standing over her would mean the upward spurting of blood.

1175
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: Two strides took him into the lobby where he had

1176
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: observed my macintosh hanging, and he held it as a

1177
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: shield between him and her body while he belabored her

1178
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: to death. She must have been felled as soon as

1179
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: she lit the fire, and before she could regulate the

1180
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: flow of gas, it would have been at full blaze.

1181
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: And as he bent at the fireplace, the flame set

1182
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: light to the macintosh. Then he would see that the

1183
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: bottom edge of her skirt was burning and throwing the

1184
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: Macintosh down. He must have dragged her away from the

1185
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: fire and on to part of the coat, leaving her

1186
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:15,959
Speaker 1: in the position that I found her.

1187
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: I believe what he's saying.

1188
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: Oh why would you do that? Though, I mean, why

1189
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: would you say all that in a magazine.

1190
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: He can claim that he's reconstructing how this crime occurred

1191
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 2: based on the details he heard at trial or what

1192
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 2: he was fed during the investigation. But I also believe

1193
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 2: that he's I mean, he's accounting for a lot of

1194
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: the evidence and how it was found and the reason

1195
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 2: for it. And I'm going, you know what, I bet

1196
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 2: there's a lot of truth. But he's just saying somebody

1197
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 2: else did it. Yeah, he knows the murderer. It's because

1198
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: he's the murderer.

1199
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: And he says one last thing. This is how he

1200
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: closes out this piece. I know the murderer as readily

1201
01:07:56,720 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: as I can identify a volume on my shelves, So

1202
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: can I put my hand on the murderer. Only one

1203
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: name have I kept locked in my mind, the name

1204
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: of the man who killed my wife dot dot dot.

1205
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: And that is the end of the article.

1206
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 2: It's that that's an interesting thing. How he's you know

1207
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 2: he is being vilified in in very bizarre ways. It's

1208
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: it's interesting how the public you know he's a vampire

1209
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 2: or he's a sex fiend and all that. Well, this

1210
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 2: crime isn't that right, So obviously he's now getting this

1211
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 2: this attention that is really bad. He goes to the

1212
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: point moving out, and yet he feels compelled to write

1213
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 2: an article saying I know who the murderer is. And

1214
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 2: it's almost a tease. This is this seems like he's

1215
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 2: he's getting back at the people who are vilifying him, saying, oh,

1216
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 2: I know who did it. I'm assuming over there in

1217
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 2: England he can't. He couldn't have been tried again once

1218
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 2: it was overturned. He's basically acquitted, right, sort of like

1219
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 2: what we've had with other episodes. For me, I don't

1220
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 2: think the case was strong against William to a point

1221
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 2: where you could go and convict him, but I think

1222
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 2: they went after the right guy.

1223
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get to a tiny point that

1224
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: I think fascinates people. So at trial, the prosecutors had

1225
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,799
Speaker 1: said they believe that William took all of his clothes

1226
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 1: off and wore this macintosh so that he wouldn't get

1227
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: any blood on himself. Okay, the author Joe Nicol thinks

1228
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 1: that probably he just threw the jacket the macintosh on

1229
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: top of Julia to block the blood. What I heard

1230
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: you say was people don't know about the lack of

1231
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: blood that can happen at a crime scene like this,

1232
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 1: that maybe he isn't going to be covered with blood

1233
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 1: at all. And then he gives you this explanation. So

1234
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: what makes sense to you out of all of this.

1235
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 2: First you have to understand that William probably has never

1236
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 2: killed anybody else in this manner, so he doesn't really

1237
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 2: know exactly what's going to happen, and especially if this

1238
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 2: is he's flying off in a fit of rage, where

1239
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,839
Speaker 2: now he's just, you know, striking Julia with a weapon.

1240
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 2: The macintosh may simply have been he had killed Julia

1241
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 2: and she's laying there. And because this is a this

1242
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 2: is a behavioral thing that offenders do when they are

1243
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 2: they are close to their victims, is they cover their

1244
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 2: victims up in terms of they don't want to look

1245
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 2: at what they've done to somebody that they care about.

1246
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 2: And then the coach catches fire and now he's having

1247
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 2: to move Julia, and the macintosh gets kind of balled

1248
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,280
Speaker 2: up underneath her and more blood staining is transferred. I mean,

1249
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 2: it could be something as simple as that. I know

1250
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,799
Speaker 2: I talked about him using this macintosh as a shield.

1251
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not backing away from that, but I

1252
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 2: think the macintosh could have inadverted if he had it on,

1253
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 2: was going to wear it out to go meet up

1254
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 2: with you know whoever. He's just coincidentally had that on

1255
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 2: and then he took it off to cover Julie up.

1256
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 2: But it's very possible that he wasn't wearing anything and

1257
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 2: got very little blood on himself, and just you know,

1258
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 2: the macintosh was an easy thing to throw over her

1259
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 2: because it was something that was readily available.

1260
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: Okay, well, the ending of this to me is some

1261
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:29,599
Speaker 1: modicum of justice. I suppose he has kidney disease and

1262
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: he dies two years after he kills his wife. Okay,

1263
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: he is buried next to her, which is unfortunate. But

1264
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 1: you know, the theory that I think a lot of

1265
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: people kind of go with is that for some reason

1266
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 1: he wanted his freedom, or you're right, he got into

1267
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: an argument with her and then this is how it

1268
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: all happened. But isn't this too much pre planning for

1269
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: it to be an argument, do you think.

1270
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I know, when his establishment of this

1271
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,799
Speaker 2: alibi would possibly indicate that there was some pre planning

1272
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 2: element to this. And then why would he kill Julia?

1273
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: You know, was this where he did want to move

1274
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 2: on with his life and didn't want her to? You know,

1275
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how the divorce process would be out there,

1276
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 2: you know, as he tried to maintain you know, his

1277
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 2: financial assets that she possibly could could benefit from, you know,

1278
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 2: and that's why he's killing her. But there's also a

1279
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 2: possibility that this was all done on the fly, you know,

1280
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:26,120
Speaker 2: and this whole yeah, going out and trying to find,

1281
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, track down this guy. You know, he just

1282
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:35,400
Speaker 2: took advantage that that arrangement was there and purposely got

1283
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: lost and tried to talk to a bunch of people

1284
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 2: so they all saw him out there.

1285
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 1: Well, that is the end of that story. A lot

1286
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 1: of twist and turns. I think we both suspected William

1287
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 1: from the beginning. I think we're right about that. But

1288
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: the lack of forensics and just you know, everything shows

1289
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:55,640
Speaker 1: the struggles that investigators had back then to someone who

1290
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: was so clearly guilty. But they just couldn't prove it.

1291
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 2: No, that's it, you know, and that's where we have

1292
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 2: progressed fortunately, you know, and as technology, you know, gets better,

1293
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 2: we're seeing where just cases that were made on circumstantial evidence,

1294
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 2: well they found innocent people guilty. Yeah, you know, but

1295
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 2: I think there's enough indication here where William is responsible.

1296
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 2: They just didn't have enough to prove the case.

1297
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 1: All right, next week, different time period, I promise, and

1298
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:27,839
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward.

1299
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 2: To it, all right. As always, Kate, thank you.

1300
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:37,560
Speaker 1: Thank you. This has been an exactly right production.

1301
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,440
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

1302
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1303
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:45,520
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1304
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,799
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trubble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1305
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1306
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1307
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1308
01:13:56,439 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1309
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1310
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1311
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1312
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 2: Age story of murder, and the Race to Decode the

1313
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:12,600
Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now.

1314
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1315
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now.

1316
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 2: Listen to Buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1317
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.