1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert. I've got a question for you today. 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: Hit me in your opinion. What is the creepiest image 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: photograph produced by human space exploration. Well, since we're talking 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: about exploration, I imagine this rules out weapons tests. No, no, 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: no, no no, I'm not interested in any clear bombs. Yeah, 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: because we have some pretty creepy new test footage such 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: as nineteen sixties Operation UH Dominique, which was involved the 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: atmospheric sort of slash space detonation of nukes. I don't 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: think I've ever seen that. Oh yeah, it's a For instance, 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: there was the Starfish Prime event in which a one 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: point for megatun bomb detonated two hundred and fifty miles 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: or four two kilometers above the planet. And that's above 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the the Carmen line. So like that's pretty disturbing when 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: you when you think about it, like a Cold War 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: UH space detonation test. But as far as like pure 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: space exploration goes, I'm always a sucker for stuff like 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: the you know, the so called Martian face, or even 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: something like the Hexagon of Saturn, something that just inspires 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: this sense of mystery where you're asking, like, what what 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: is this place? Really? Oh, the hexagon on the I 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: believe it's the north pole of Saturn. It's either the 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 1: north or the South pole. I can't recall. I believe 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I believe it's north. We we talked about it in 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: one of our previous episodes, Haunted Geography and Haunted Geometry, 28 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: very love craft in Yeah, I guess they're forbidden. Geometry 29 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: is all through the Lovecraft cosmos, right, you know it. 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: But I've got a different answer my and for a 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: long time this has been my answer. My favorite creepy 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: space images have got to be the photos taken by 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: the Venera thirteen lander Robert. I've got them in the 34 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: notes here. But have you ever looked at these before? Yes, 35 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure I've seen the color corrected ones, 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: but but certainly I've seen the the the other ones 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: that have that that deep kind of reddish orange tinge 38 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: to them. Yeah. I mean, it's funny to try to 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: explain what's disturbing about them, because they're just pictures of 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: some rocks you know, it's just you're you're looking at 41 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: some rocks and soil. Now what the Venera Landers were. 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: It was a series of space missions to the planet 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: Venus that was done by the Soviet Space Program. They 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: launched these missions to put landers down on the surface 45 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: of Venus for the first time. There had mid Landers 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: sending things back from Venus or the surface of Venus 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: before this, but they sent a bunch of missions in 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: the seventies and the eighties. And one of the things 49 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,119 Speaker 1: about landing on Venus, and we'll definitely get more into 50 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: this in the episode, is that you've got a very 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: short window of time to send stuff back because Venus 52 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: is a death trap. Yeah, it will destroy you, even 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: for highly shielded, powerful machines. You put a machine down 54 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: there and it's a suicide mission. The machine is gonna 55 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: gather some data and transmit as long as it can, 56 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: but eventually the crushing heat and pressure of the atmosphere 57 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: of Venus will kill that robot and it will only 58 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: have this last sort of death note to send back 59 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: to Earth. And one of these missions managed to send 60 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: some really striking pictures as that last death note. Specifically, 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: it was the Venera thirteen lander, which was launched on 62 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: October one, and it landed on Venus on March first night. 63 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: So even the idea of a lander setting down on Venus, 64 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: if you know anything about the Venusian atmosphere, is kind 65 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: of creepy to imagine, because first you're going into this 66 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: haze of sulfurous clouds. But as you go further and 67 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: further down, the atmospheric pressure gets so much and so 68 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: dense and so thick that it's almost more like sinking 69 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: into a liquid uh. And so you've got to imagine 70 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: this lander sinking down into this atmospheric ocean surrounding Venus, 71 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: this boiling hot, lead melting atmospheric ocean of of carbon 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: dioxide and nitrogen, with all this sulfur everywhere. And then 73 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: finally it sets down on the surface and takes these 74 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: images and sends them back to Earth. And there's almost 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: nothing in the images. You just see the edge of 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: the lander in the foreground, and it has some appropriately 77 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: creepy looking triangular teeth all around it, and then beyond 78 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: that there's some soil and some flat rocks. But nevertheless, 79 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: something about these images messes with me. I find them 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: absolutely creepy. And haunting. They have this dirty grindhouse kind 81 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: of yellow film effect to them. Uh. And that's of 82 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: course the atmospheric effects that we see from from the 83 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: glow of Venus. Uh. It's almost as if we're looking 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: at everything through an evil haze. For me, I think 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: it's because it's the it's like the last known photograph 86 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: from from from the from the very you know, borders 87 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: of the known world. Yea. Um. It's like if somebody 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: went to the Texas Chainsaw mascre house and took a 89 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: picture of their feet by accident, and then that's all 90 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: you had to go on, right, so you know, do 91 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: you know something terrible happened afterwards? You don't have a 92 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: lot of details, but you have this picture of somebody's 93 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: feet on a front porch in Texas. That's exactly right. Yeah, 94 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: it feels like that. And another creepy thing about them 95 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: is that you notice a difference that unlike Mars, where 96 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: if you see images back from the surface of Mars, 97 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: they can sometimes look kind of creepy, but it can 98 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: also just look kind of like, I don't know, a 99 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: desert on kind of an overcast day, it was just 100 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: a very bare in area with sand and rocks and 101 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: kind of a gray white sky. But unlike on Mars, 102 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: one thing you'll notice is the effects of sunlight and 103 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: the directionality of the sunlight, where if there's a thing 104 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: sticking out of the rover, you can see it casting 105 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: a shadow on the ground. These these pictures have no 106 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: indication of shadows really, you know, looking at them again, 107 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: as we podcast here, I do think there is a 108 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: sense of one taking a picture of one's own feet here, 109 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: So there's an incompleteness to it. No, it's that just 110 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: that just gets at you. Whereas at least with it 111 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: with the Mars images, we have more of a true, 112 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: uh you know, panoramic vision of what's going on there. Well, 113 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: Mars has been thoroughly explored on the surface at this point. 114 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean, we have all kinds of pictures of what 115 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: Mars looks like at different times of day, different times 116 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: of the year, you know, from multiple different landers and rovers. 117 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: Mars almost feels like, I don't mean to pooh pooh Mars. 118 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean, Mars is still fascinating and mysterious and wonderful, 119 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: but it's it's very much more explored territory at this point. Yeah, 120 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: we know As we've mentioned before, we have more detailed 121 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: information about the surface of Mars than we have about 122 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean. In some ways, that is 123 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: definitely true. Um, but the surface of Venus is like, 124 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: it's this mystery hell, you know, it's this hazy mystery 125 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: that's beyond the gate. And because it feels like this 126 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: hazy mystery that's beyond the gate, for some reason, the 127 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: idea of life on Venus has always seemed more creepy 128 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: and interesting and tantalizing a possibility to me than the 129 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: idea of life on Mars. I don't know if you 130 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: feel the same way. Yeah, I definitely think so. I 131 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: think it's kind of a shame that Venus doesn't get 132 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: more attention, especially in terms of our our science fiction, 133 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: because when you think of life on another planet within 134 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: our Solar system, you think of really the rich history 135 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: of imagining life on Mars, both in the future and 136 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: the past, because you have everything from of course the 137 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: old Edgar Rice Burrows novels to uh Total to Total Recall. 138 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's so much great stuff there. But 139 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: when you start looking for really cool examples of life 140 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: on Venus, there are some great examples, but there there 141 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: aren't as many. It's not it's not the place that 142 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: the human imagination instantly goes to. But as we'll discuss 143 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: in this episode, we really should because there's a there. 144 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: There are some strong cases to be made for life 145 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: on Venus, either now or in the past. Yeah, and 146 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: so that's going to be the main subject of today's episode. 147 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: If there are, or if there have been, creatures of Venus, 148 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: what are they like and how would we know about them? Now? 149 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: If we just turn to fiction for if you examples? Uh, 150 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: we don't have time to catalog everything, but I wanted 151 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: to mention a few that came to my mind. Anyway. 152 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: There is an HP Lovecraft story from ninety nine that 153 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: he wrote with Kenneth Sterling titled In the Walls of Erics, 154 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: which features a muddy jungle Venus and a maze with 155 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: invisible walls. That feels about right. Yeah, it's pretty good. 156 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: I remember I remember dating that story when I read it. Uh. C. S. 157 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: Lewis took us to Venusian Paradise in his novel Peralandra. Uh. 158 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: This involves an alien Adam and Eve and there and 159 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: then of course you have the Devil Show up as well, 160 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: possessing the body of a character by the name of 161 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: Professor Weston. Professor Weston, I wonder if that's named after 162 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: Jesse Weston, who wrote the book about the Grail legend 163 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: that was so popular in the early twentieth century. You know, 164 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't remember, but U but it's a 165 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: Paralalandro was was a book I really loved when I 166 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: was younger, and we'll probably read again at some at 167 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: some point. I've never read it, but that seems interesting 168 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: to explore, especially because you've got, I mean, you've got 169 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: multiple mythic associations with Venus throughout history. You know, you've 170 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: got the god of love and the Eros and the 171 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: Venus aphrodite kind of association. But you've also got the 172 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: lucifer association. Yeah, yeah, and both are explored in Peralandra. 173 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: In Perilandro, Venus is also a water world. They're like 174 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: these kind of floating wraths of land that everyone is everyone. 175 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: It's like three or four people, three or four individuals 176 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: anyway they lived there. But yeah, it's it's a it 177 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: is an interesting take on Venus as well. Stephen King 178 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: took us to Venus twice as it turns out once 179 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: in a nineteen sixties self published short story titled The 180 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: Cursed Expedition, which I have not read. I'm not sure 181 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: that's one that's actually readily available or it's kind of 182 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: like a you know, a vault story of kings. Uh. 183 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: And then there's of course his short story I Am 184 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: the Doorway, which doesn't actually visit the planet, but a 185 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: character is takes part in a manned Venus fly by 186 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: and comes back in centially infected with an alien organism. Well, 187 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about that this is a time 188 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: period at which the Venera missions were underway. Yeah, there's 189 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: also a similar Outer Limits episode from nineteen four titled 190 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: Cold Hands, Warm Heart that actually stars William Shatner. So 191 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: Shot goes to Venus or he's from Venus or what. 192 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: I haven't seen this episode, but he is involved in 193 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: some sort of space mission involving Venus. So you can't 194 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: give me the deets on the chat. I mean, things go, 195 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: you know, weird. That's that's the Again, this is not 196 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: an Outer Limits episode that I've seen, but perhaps we 197 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: have listeners you can chime in on it. And then, 198 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: of course Venus plays an important role in the expanse 199 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: uh TV series adaptation of the novels. No spoilers, but 200 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: it does have a pretty cool plot line involving Life 201 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: and Venus. And there's also early mentioned in the books 202 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: and perhaps the TV series as well, about a failed 203 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: attempt by humans to establish cloud colonies there. Oh yeah, 204 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: that is an intra sting idea. I've read about the 205 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: idea of trying to create um I don't know whether 206 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: you call them aerostatic or hydrostatic, basically floating colonies. That 207 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: would be not too hard to do, actually, because of 208 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: how dense the atmosphere is. Yeah, cloud City right out 209 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: of Empire. Yeah, except I don't know, best Bin didn't 210 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: look all that cloudy compared to Venus. Yeah, well, I 211 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: mean they were up there, right, It's been a long 212 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: time since they've seen Empires. I don't remember how cloudy 213 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: was or if it became more cloudy in the special 214 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: editions that came out. Who knows. Oh yeah, they're really 215 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: cged some more clouds in there. It's uh, it was 216 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: worth it. Uh No. I think it's interesting that Venus 217 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: doesn't get as much attention as Mars does in terms 218 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: of the possibility of finding microbial life forms. I mean, 219 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, way back in the day, people used to think, 220 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: before we'd explored Mars that there, you know, there might 221 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: be whole civilizations there. People would look through telescopes and 222 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: see what looked like canals on Mars, and they'd say, oh, 223 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, there are people on Mars, just like there 224 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: are people here. Now we pretty much can rule that out. 225 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: I wonder of part of it is because we went 226 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: from being so geocentric, the idea that the Earth is 227 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: the center of all things, and then we went to 228 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: a heliocentric model, and then of course we expanded beyond that. 229 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: But if if we're still kind of thinking heliocentrically, so 230 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the Sun is the center of of our solar system, 231 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: and therefore it's kind of a center of order and 232 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: and the known. And this is not doesn't something not 233 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: not something that actually matches up necessarily with our our 234 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: scientific understanding of everything. But it is. It is a center. 235 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: And therefore Venus is closer to the center. It's closer 236 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: to the center of the known, whereas Mars is a 237 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: little beyondest, like Mars is a little more on the outskirts. 238 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: And therefore it makes this more it makes more sense 239 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: that it would have more mystery to it. That's where 240 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: the that's where the ghosts and goblins are going to live, right, 241 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: They're not gonna live in the middle of the city. 242 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: They're gonna live on the outskirts of town. Well, yeah, 243 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: it's the outer limits. You don't talk about the inner 244 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: limits though, I do. Really eno always science fiction that 245 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: that goes inward instead of goes outward. Actually, I mean, 246 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: this is something I really liked about that movie Sunshine 247 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: that came out, which you know, I had a lot 248 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: of problems. I think some of the writing kind of 249 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: fell apart in the third part of the movie, but 250 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: it explored the idea that there was this deep, kind 251 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: of ghostly mystery to the sun, and as you come 252 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: closer and closer to the Sun, it's sort of activates 253 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: these instincts within you that are sort of borderline supernatural, 254 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: but at least seemed to go deeper than the human 255 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: or mammalian parts of your nervous system. Where you know, 256 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: where the Sun is the closest thing to a literal 257 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: god there is in the physical universe, right, it's the 258 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: creator of us. Yeah, yeah, I think that ye coupled 259 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: with the fact that every humans just want to keep 260 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: going out. It's one of the reasons probably that more 261 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: people have been to the Moon than to the bottom 262 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: of than to the deepest portions of the ocean. Well, 263 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: I think we should ignore this impulse to go out 264 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: and we should go in. Let's go in towards Venus, 265 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: get closer to the Sun, move one orbit in and 266 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: are looking at this hothouse planet. Yeah, why go to 267 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: a planet that doesn't have enough atmosphere when instead you 268 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: can take your your dreams and your imagination to a 269 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: place that has more atmosphere than you can handle. Let's 270 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back, we 271 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: will explore the surface of Venus. Thank you, thank you. Alright, 272 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: we're back now. You're probably familiar with some of the 273 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: most basic features of Venus as a planet, right that 274 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: it's very much known as an Earth analog, and that 275 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: is a fair way to characterize it. It's very close 276 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: to the size and mass of the Earth. It's gonna 277 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, it was created around the same time and 278 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: the accretion disk of the inner rocky planets um so 279 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: in many ways it is a lot like the Earth 280 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: until you get down into the atmosphere. So, Robert, can 281 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: you take me on a tour of the surface of Venus. Yeah. 282 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: Actually chatted with astrobiologist David Grinspoon about the surface of 283 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: Venus several years back, as well as with JPL scientists 284 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: Susanne smrit Car. So I want to run through some 285 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: of the attributes of the planet ended here that they 286 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: stressed to me. All right, let's take a stroll through 287 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: the toxic soup. Alright. So, so Grinspoon pointed out that 288 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: first and foremost, this is a planet that's very rich 289 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: and volcanoes and mountains and tech tonic features. Now not 290 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: to be confused with tectonic activity. We'll get back to that. 291 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: You won't find signs of a water erosion. Uh, probably 292 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: unless they're very very ancient. And a lot of the 293 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: topography is dominated by a sort of low aligning rolling 294 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: planes that are largely ash. And this is punctuated by 295 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: some high volcanic mountains and some other sort of high 296 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: plateaus of titanically disrupted areas with with flows of ash. 297 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: So this is a planet surface that has been sort 298 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: of like hit and paved by volcanic activity. Yes, yeah, 299 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: they're also he says they're seemingly steady slow winds, always 300 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: blowing east to west, and uh as we've already touched on. 301 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: The atmospheric pressure is very high. Now. One interesting thing 302 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: about the directionality of the movement of the atmosphere there 303 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: is that Venus rotates opposite of the way that most 304 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: of the planets in our Solar system rotate. It rotates 305 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: in a retrograde way to its orbit. So the sun 306 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: actually rises in the west and sets in the east 307 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: on Venus. Yeah, it's it's interesting. It has also has 308 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: an extremely slow rotation two forty three terrestrial days, that's 309 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: how long it takes, but its atmosphere only needs four 310 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: days to write to rotate. So yeah, there's already you 311 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: can tell there's a lot of a lot of by 312 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: the from a terrestrial standpoint, a lot of screwy things 313 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: going on with Venus. If you were approaching the this 314 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: is like approaching the Texas chainsaw mask er house and 315 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: finding all sorts of bone based you know, voodoo doo, 316 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: Dad's hanging in trees and bushes, right, some skull furniture. 317 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: So the pressure is high, roughly ninety times the pressure 318 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: at sea level on Earth. That's a lot of pressure. 319 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: Of of course it's going to vary though depending on 320 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: you know exactly what al to you're at Venus. We've 321 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: already touched on the light a little bit. You'd find 322 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: very dull light. Grinsman says that if you were suddenly 323 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: transported to Venus, you would notice that the light is 324 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: very different. It's always cloudy, and there's a very thick uh, 325 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: the very thick atmosphere. So light is, he says, is 326 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: kind of diffused and gathered so so much that it's 327 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: a it's kind of reddish, and there are, as you said, 328 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: no shadows because there's no direct sunlight. It's all just 329 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: clouds and scattered light. He says that there would be 330 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: enough daylight to see, but it will be like a 331 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: heavily overcast day on Earth. And of course on the 332 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: night side it would be dark. Aside from whatever kind 333 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: of like you, you would probably notice the dull red 334 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: glow of the red hot rocks in the ground lighting 335 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: things a bit creepy. And he pointed out that it 336 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: is pretty much Earth's alter ego. It's the only Earth 337 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: sized planet in our Solar system only uh, and the 338 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: only other roughly Earth sized planet that we can send 339 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: a spacecraft too and study in detail. Uh, that will 340 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: and that's going to be true for a long long time. 341 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: And Uh, indeed, Earth and Venus probably had similar origins. Uh, 342 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: it could have been and they could have been a 343 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: nearly identical states in the beginning, and yet we have 344 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: gone down very difficent routes in terms of how our 345 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: climates and surface conditions have turned out. So, yeah, if 346 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: we started in similar states, what happened to Venus to 347 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: make it so different from us? Well, runaway greenhouse effect 348 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: boiled away the oceans long ago and they were lost 349 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: to space, and then it it became essentially stuck with 350 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: its present climate. It's so it's it's often touted as 351 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: kind of a worse case example of what climate change 352 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: on Earth could amount to. Yeah, now you might have 353 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: heard of this idea of the runaway greenhouse effect invoked. 354 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: But if you're wondering exactly how that works, Basically, what 355 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: happens is you've got some liquid on the surface of 356 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: your planet. You've got like liquid water oceans, and if 357 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: you heat the oceans up too much, they begin to 358 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: evaporate a lot of water very bur into the atmosphere. 359 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: But of course, water vapor is an excellent greenhouse gas. 360 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: And then when there's a lot of water vapor in 361 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, because it's a greenhouse gas, sunlight can pass 362 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: through it one way, coming in to heat the Earth 363 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: or heat the planet, but then it does not allow 364 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: as much energy to reflect back off of the planet 365 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: and radiate back out into space. So like other greenhouse gases, 366 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: this water vapor let's energy in but not back out, 367 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: and this warms the planet even more. As the planet warms, 368 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: the water vapor just keeps evaporating even more because it's 369 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: getting hotter and hotter, making the effect worse and worse 370 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: in this net positive feedback loop. So there's sort of 371 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: these tipping points for planets with liquid on the surface. 372 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: You don't want to get the water hotter than a 373 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: certain level because if you do, it's just going to 374 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: create this runaway effect that you kind of can't stop. Now. 375 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned plate tectonics earlier. There are no plate tectonics 376 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: that we know of on Venus of all, but the 377 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: certainly there's a lot of volcanic activity. The volcanoes, though, 378 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: don't spring up along plate borders like they do on Earth. 379 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: They just pop up all over. So there's just kind 380 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: of surprise volcano. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's a different 381 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: pattern of convection. Uh, or so it seems according to Grinspoon. Now, 382 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: in addition to the greenhouse gas issue, uh, he did 383 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: drive home that a lot of the differences may also 384 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: just be due to orbit. You know, obviously Venus is 385 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: more of an inner planet than Earth, and and they're 386 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: just going to be uh, certain differences in place just 387 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: on where you are in relation to the Sun. Right, 388 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: So it is closer to the Sun than Us, but 389 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: that's that's not the only thing that plays a role, because, 390 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: for example, the surface of Venus is hotter than the 391 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: surface of Mercury, which is closer to the Sun than 392 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: Venus is. Uh So, definitely the atmosphere plays a huge 393 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: role in what surface conditions are like. Right, and uh 394 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: we already hit on the fact that the the atmosphere 395 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: of Venus is pretty incredible. The clouds of Venus uh 396 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: are concentrated sulfuric acid. Yeah. Uh yeah. Now that's not 397 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: to say that the atmosphere is concentrated sulfuric acid. The 398 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: atmosphere is about ninety eight point five carbon dioxide five 399 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: percent carbon dioxide with like three point five percent nitrogen 400 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: or so, and then it's got these aerosol ized sulfuric 401 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: acid particles like colloidal sulfuric acid suspended in the atmosphere. 402 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: Needless to say, you wouldn't want to breathe it. Noddy, 403 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: we we touch on exactly how hot the surface is, 404 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we did. That's worth mentioning because it's 405 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: it's it's hotter than you think, Dad, hotter than you think. Yeah. 406 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: Susan Spreaker pointed out that the surface temperature is around 407 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: nine hundred degrees fahrenheit or four and eighty two celsius. 408 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: That is, it's an often sided fact hot enough to 409 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: melt lead. These are almost like metal works kind of conditions. Yeah. 410 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: And another cool thing that she pointed out is like, Okay, 411 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: assume you're on the on the surface, You're wearing some 412 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: sort of high tech suit that prevents you from having 413 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: to worry about melting or being crushed. Uh. And she 414 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: she points out that walking on the surface would be 415 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: really weird because it would be like walking It would 416 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: be more like walking through a fluid than what we 417 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: think of as as an atmosphere and This is again 418 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: due to that high pressure super critical c O two, 419 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: So in some aspects some aspects of a fluid would 420 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: be present as well as some aspects of a gas. 421 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if that atmospheric density is part of what 422 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: contributes to the creepiness of those photos taken by the 423 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: Venera thirteen lander. I don't know, Like, is that queuing 424 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: something in my eyes? Does somehow the air look wrong, 425 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: like it looks heavier or something? Yeah, I wonder now. 426 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: Smart Car also pointed out that one of the biggest 427 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: mysteries about Venus is why it doesn't have plate tectonics. Uh. 428 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: And she says that the planet completely resurface sometime in 429 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: the last billion years, and so we have no record 430 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: of what happened in those first three and a half 431 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: billion years. Now. This is premised on the fact that 432 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: Venus is basically the same age as the Earth, that 433 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: they were created in this planetary accretion process, and both 434 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: planets are about four and a half billion years old. 435 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: But something happened about a billion years ago on Venus 436 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: that resurface most of it, uh, and hit the evidence 437 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: that they were like, we gotta get this redone, you know, 438 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: I'm sick of this old pattern. We gotta get it repaved. 439 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: But you pointed out that we really don't know if 440 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: if it was some sort of catastrophic event that caused 441 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: a huge amount of of of volcanic activity to made 442 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: it occur within a relatively short period of time, or 443 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: if it's just been a steady process over the last 444 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: billion years where volcanic activity has just been accumulating. Now, 445 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: one of the things we often talk about when considering 446 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: whether or not a planet can sustain life is what 447 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: the sort of the geomagnetic properties of the planet are. Now, 448 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: we know that Venus does have an iron core like 449 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: Earth does, but the question is if it's going to 450 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: sustain life on its surface or within its atmosphere, does 451 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: it have a magnetic field to shield it from radiation 452 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: coming from space. Well, yeah, the answer here is really 453 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: interesting because no, it does not have an internally generated magnetosphere. 454 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: The solar wind can slam directly into the atmosphere. However, 455 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: it does benefit from partial protection due to its induced 456 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: magnetic field. Now what's that. So you have solar ultra 457 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: violent radiation removing electrons from atoms in the upper atmosphere, 458 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: creating the electrically charged gas of the ionosphere. As on Earth, 459 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: it slows and diverts the flow of particles around the planet. Now, 460 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: that's interesting, But so far, I guess we should say 461 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: we've just been sort of talking about the planet in 462 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: general and kind of spitballing about what life there could 463 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: be like or or you know, things that occurred to us. 464 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: What do the experts actually have to say about the 465 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: possibility of life on Venus, either in the past or now. 466 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to imagine life on the surface 467 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: of Venus now, given how hot and high pressure it is. 468 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: But let's not pre judge the question what what what 469 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: would for example, David Grinspoon have to say about life 470 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: on Venus. Well, he's very clear about the fact that 471 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: there's nothing controversial at all about speculating, uh, that that 472 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: ancient Venus might have boasted life, because he says, if 473 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: you go back four billion years, you'll find an environment 474 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: very similar to Earth. Yea, And so much of our 475 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: speculations of regarding life on other worlds, you know, it 476 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: centers around the question how much like Earth is it 477 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: or was it? Yeah? Now, of course that's premised on 478 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: the fact that we basically know of one way biochemistry 479 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: can work, and that has certain physical tolerances built into it. 480 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: Biochemistry can work in a carbon based way with water 481 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: as a solvent, and so we know that can only 482 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: happen in a place where there's the right kind of 483 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: temperature to have liquid water, where it doesn't freeze or 484 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: boil um and you've got you know, you've got the 485 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: right kind of organic molecules present, so that sets these 486 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: tolerances there. But then again, there are other ways we 487 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: maybe aren't even imagining that biochemistry could work. Just don't 488 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: based on our limited imagination, but still based on what 489 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: we know, there's nothing wrong with saying, well, life could 490 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: have existed on Venus. I mean, you know, a place 491 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: like Earth can have life, And Grinspoon says it's even 492 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: conceivable that life could have begun on Venus, and then 493 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: we're all essentially Venusians. Uh. You know, it points out 494 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: that you have rocks being blasted between the planets, so 495 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: there was contact, So some form of pants burmia is possible, uh, possible, Uh, 496 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: concerning life on Earth and possible life on Venus, now 497 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: that's something people bring up as a possibility, but not 498 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: to say that there's a strong reason to favor that 499 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: hypothesis right now. Some of are really a lot of 500 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: the key theories regarding life on Venus do in the 501 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: past revolve around the idea that there may have been 502 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: oceans there in the past, right and we still don't 503 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: have definitive proof. I think that there were oceans on 504 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: Venus in the past, but there's there are pretty strong 505 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: reasons to think that it at least might have had oceans. 506 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: I was looking at one study by our No Salvador 507 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: at all from the Journal of Geophysical Research arch Planets 508 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: in and this was kind of interesting. So the background 509 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: on the study is that they talk about how early 510 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: in the history of a solar system you've got young 511 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: inner planets and they get bombarded by lots of impacts 512 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: from rocky objects orbiting the Sun. Right the early the 513 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: early Solar system is very dirty and it's very full 514 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, and over long periods of time, eventually it 515 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: gets kind of cleaned up. But early in the Solar 516 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: system you've got big rocks slamming into young planets, and 517 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: they slam into them from space and can actually heat 518 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: planets up a lot, and big enough impacts can even 519 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: melt large portions of the mass of the planet which 520 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,479 Speaker 1: surrounds it in this ocean of melted rock. But after 521 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: this happens, the molten ocean cools and then releases volatile 522 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: compounds to create the atmosphere. And in this study, the 523 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: authors create a model where they can sort of play 524 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: with model planets in this state. Right, you've got model 525 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: planets in early stages of formation that are releasing certain 526 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: out of C O two or water onto their surface, 527 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: and that's affecting, you know, what, whether it has oceans 528 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: or what the atmosphere looks like. And so that you 529 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: can place a model planet like that in orbit at 530 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: different distances from a host star and then predict what 531 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: kind of surface the planet will evolve in its geohistory. 532 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: And their models suggests, based on what we know about 533 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: Venus today, that it could have had water oceans earlier 534 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: in its history. That it's consistent with what they've found 535 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: now the presence of some sort of an alien Adam 536 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: and Eve that there's no proof for that. You have 537 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: to leave that to C. S. Lewis. Even though it 538 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: might be hard to know for sure whether there was 539 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: life on Venus a long time ago, we can at 540 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: least get good clues about whether there would have been 541 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: windows of opportunity for it. Right. Yeah. According to a 542 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: Sanjay Limay and co authors in a two thousand eighteen 543 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: astrobiology paper, Venus could have boasted a habitable climate and 544 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: liquid water for as long as two billion years. That's 545 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: that's that's longer than it might have occurred on Mars. 546 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: So you have a pretty pretty long period of time. 547 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm there. Uh, that is enough time based on our 548 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: terrestrial model, for at least simple life to emerge. Yeah. 549 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: Now if you look at that period of time on Earth, 550 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: you're not really getting beyond single celled organisms. Yeah. I 551 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: mean to put that in perspective, two billion years of 552 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: life on Earth was enough to get us from the 553 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: deep sevent life to single cell life, you know, be 554 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: able to get us to photo since this and atmospheric oxygen. 555 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: But you'd need another one point five billion years of 556 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: Earth life to get to like multicellular life and sexual reproduction. 557 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: So is there based on the Earth model, was their 558 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: life on Venus? Maybe? Was there sex on Venus? Probably not, 559 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: but maybe maybe? Okay, imagine on Venus for some reason, 560 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: life evolves faster. Maybe there's maybe there's a faster mutation 561 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: rate something like that. I want to by the end 562 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: of this episode, I want to be imagining what it 563 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: could have been like if there was fully evolved, intelligent 564 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: civilization on Venus that is now just paved over by 565 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: volcanic activity, and we and see any trace of it. Well, 566 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: it would be a shame, wouldn't that the planet name 567 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: for the Goddess of Love would have never known sexual 568 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: reproduction it was just all a sexual That would be 569 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: a cruel irony. Well, anyway, so we've been exploring this 570 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: question of whether whether life could have existed on Venus 571 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: in the past, but we should transition to talk about 572 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: whether life exists on Venus today. Yeah, because this is 573 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: where we really get into the uh, the the imagination 574 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: capturing aspects of of of exploring Venus, the idea that 575 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: we could send something there, some sort of probe and 576 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: discover life like actually harness and study an example of 577 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: of life on another world. Now you're probably thinking, no, 578 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: wait a second. Earlier, didn't you say that the surface 579 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: of Venus had ninety times the pressure of Earth's atmosphere 580 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: at the surface and was like five hundred degrees celsius 581 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: or like nine hundred degrees fahrenheit. So you may be 582 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: thinking skeptically, you're not suggest sting that life exists on 583 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: the surface of Venus, or are you? Well, not on 584 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: the surface. We've got to get our heads in the clouds. 585 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: That's where things become more tolerable, at least in terms 586 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: of modern Venus. All right, we will explore that when 587 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: we come back from this break. Than alright, we're back. 588 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: We've been talking about the conditions on Venus as we 589 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: know them today, conditions on Venus in the ancient past, 590 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: and the big question was their life on Venus and 591 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: is their life on Venus. So we've speculated on the 592 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: possibility that there could have been life on Venus in 593 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: its ancient oceans, should if they existed. But when we 594 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: look at the planet today, the surface again is just 595 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: an intolerable hellscape. But when we get up into the clouds, 596 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: that's where we start seeing, uh, conditions that makes sense 597 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: for life as we know it now, to be fair 598 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: to the surface of Venus. Of course, the surface of Venus, 599 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: like the surface of Earth, is not exactly the same 600 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: from equator to poll right. Yeah. In fact, it has 601 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: been proposed that Venus might boast acidic polar seas. Back 602 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: in nine seventy, Joseph sec Bach and W. F. Libby 603 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: suggested that photosynthetic life could exist in such an environment, 604 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: based on experiments with algae grown in pure C O 605 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: two under pressure with an acidic nutrient medium at elevated temperatures. 606 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: And I mean, we've seen extreme aphile organisms on Earth 607 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: that survive in in highly pressurized environments and very very 608 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: hot environments, that live in geysers or around geothermal vents. 609 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: You know, these are conditions of life that US surface 610 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: dwelling land lovers can't really imagine. But certain single telled 611 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: organisms are simpler life forms have evolved to specialize in 612 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: these types of extreme conditions. They're usually called extreme aphiles. 613 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: Now we don't know if that's actually possible in the 614 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: surface of Venus. I mean, the surface of Venus is 615 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: maybe too extreme for even the most extreme extreme of 616 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: file you can imagine. But the tolerances of life, if 617 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: you expand your definition of life so far beyond what 618 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: you might imagine just looking at the life forms that 619 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: inhabit You're nearby forests, are looking into a tide pool. Yeah, yeah, 620 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly when you start looking at a deep 621 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: hydrothermal vent uh environments, you start looking at the creatures 622 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: that thrive there. It does shift your expectations a little. 623 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: And then also when you get outside of because when 624 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: you look at those vents. I think one of the 625 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: things about deep hydrothermal vent environments that are really captivating 626 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: is you get to see things like the hoff crab, 627 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: you know, the it's not really a crab, it's more 628 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: a variety of lobster. But these pale crustaceans that that 629 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: swarm around these vents. UM Like that captures our imagination 630 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: because we can say we can look at that and 631 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: we can say, okay, it's a crab, it's an animal. Uh, 632 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 1: I can I can relate to that more. But when 633 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: you're just breaking it down to to to to microbes 634 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: and simpler life forms, then it's um, it's it's life, 635 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 1: but it's not the it's not the kind of of 636 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: life that we necessarily dream about discovering on other worlds. 637 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I haven't heard your last couple of sentences, Robert, 638 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: because you got me googling half crabs. Yeah, the half 639 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: crabs are incredible. There's like squat little lobster creatures. It 640 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: looks like a mountain of skulls. Is like on a 641 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: mountain of skulls in the Castle of Pain, I sat 642 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: on a throne of blood. Yeah, basically they're there. If 643 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: you look at pictures of these guys, they're jocking position 644 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: for their jocking for position in order to get closest 645 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: to the superheated water, because that's where they're going to find. Uh, 646 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: the little creatures that they eat. This is crazy. I've 647 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: never seen that. Well anyway, I'm sorry, but yes, yes, 648 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: I should acknowledge your point. The more willing we are 649 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: to think of organisms less and less inherently like us, 650 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: the farther out into the extremes of of physics and 651 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: of nature, that life can extend. Yeah, as they said earlier, 652 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: we really have to look at the clouds that the 653 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: the atmosphere of Venus. That is where you can get 654 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: away from those hellish surface conditions and you encounter conditions 655 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: that are are far more in line with what we 656 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: typically think of as life sustaining conditions. Grinspoon has written 657 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: a number of papers on this. He points out that 658 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: there are pockets of Venus that you quote can't completely 659 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: rule out his habitats for life based on what we know, 660 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: and in particular, the clouds of Venus are really interesting 661 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: environments because unlike the surface, they are not particularly hot, 662 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: and they are a continuous and sort of chemically and 663 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: energetically lively environment in terms of the sort of availability 664 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: of possible nutrients and availability of energy sources and liquid 665 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: media and the biogenic elements. And he also pointed out 666 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: this is this I found super interesting. In his book 667 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: Venus Revealed, he proposed that a photosynthetic pigment may serve 668 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: as the quote unknown ultra violent absorber. Uh. And this 669 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: is this is what may represent one of four possible 670 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: signs of life on Venus, along with absorption of solar 671 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: energy by micro organisms as a driving force for super rotation, 672 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: the presence of larger and irregularly shaped cloud particles that 673 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: maybe quote unquote creatures, and the presence of of bright 674 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: radar signatures on the mountaintops which may be covered with life. 675 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: So that's another thing to keep in mind when you're 676 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: talking about the hellish surface of Venus. There are there 677 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: are peaks, there are places that are gonna be be 678 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: elevated from the from the truly like pressure cooker environment 679 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: that you find find lower down. Absolutely, and I think 680 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: in your talk with the Susanne Smurkar she also mentioned 681 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: that the cloud environments of Venus could host microbes, right, yeah. Yeah. 682 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: The interesting thing is this isn't crazy, Like we don't 683 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: often stop to consider this, but here on Earth life 684 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: is actually not confined strictly to the surface of the 685 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: planet and the water that's beneath the oceans. You know. 686 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: Of course, we know we've got flying birds and so forth, 687 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: but there's plenty of evidence that if you were to 688 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: fly up up into the clouds and sort of take 689 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: a bite out of a cloud, you would probably end 690 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: up with some life forms in your mouth. Yeah, breathe deep, yeah, 691 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: dirty clouds. Uh. There's a great article by Leslie Evans 692 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: Ogden called Life in the Clouds in the October issue 693 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: of Bioscience. Uh. This is a fun read and it 694 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: talks about clouds full of bacterium called Pseudomonas syringe a. 695 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: It's bacteria that seemed to float up into the clouds 696 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: and perhaps spur ice nucleation, which gives them enough weight 697 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: to come falling back down to the surface. And the 698 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: article discusses the idea that micro organisms living in clouds 699 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: might play a major role in weather and rain cycles 700 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: on Earth, and this is known as the bio precipitation theory. Yeah, 701 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: people often forget that when you're dealing with drops, the precipitation, rain, snow, frost, 702 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. It has to form around something, it has 703 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: to condense around something. There has to be a starting point, 704 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 1: and that point can be a microbe. Yeah and yeah, 705 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: and so it's obviously the case that with very light microbes, 706 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: they contend to be boy within the atmosphere. Like a 707 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 1: turbulent air current can churn up a bunch of dust 708 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: that has microbes living within it, and that can get 709 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: sent up into the atmosphere. And suddenly you are a 710 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: macro organism that is miles above the ground and you're 711 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: up here in the cloud. How are you going to 712 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: get back down to a place that's better for you 713 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 1: in terms of reproduction, because the upper atmosphere of Earth 714 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: is probably not a good home for micro organisms on 715 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: a permanent basis. Right high up in the atmosphere is 716 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: often very cold, it can be very dry. You can 717 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: get desiccated if you're a cellular organism that needs liquid water, 718 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: and there's exposure to high levels of UV radiation from 719 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: the sun, which of course can burn your life away. 720 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: But it's a great plate way to get from one 721 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: place to the other. Right, it's kind of like when 722 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: humans fly up into the upper atmosphere. It's it's it's 723 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: about getting from one point on the surface to another 724 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: point on the surface. Yeah, that's actually really interesting. It's 725 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: been sort of hypothesized that what if air currents like 726 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the jet stream in a way, can could function to 727 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: train in support interesting bacterial mutations from one population of 728 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: of bacteria somewhere to another, sort of like a gene 729 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: conveyor belt. But even if it is useful for for 730 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: the genetic diversity of a bacterial population around the world, 731 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: like that, microorganisms that travel in the Earth's clouds don't 732 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: generally want to live there forever. But Venus's atmosphere is 733 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: actually not the same as Earth's, as we've been discussing, 734 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: and despite how hostile Venus is, in many ways, Venus's 735 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: atmosphere might be a better place for organisms than Earth's atmosphere. 736 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: Organisms that might dwell within it, of course, are also 737 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: different from the organisms that live on Earth and might 738 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: make their living in a different biochemical way. So, Robert, 739 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: you mentioned a paper earlier by Sanjay Lemia at all, 740 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: the one that's in astrobiology this year, and that the 741 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: earlier thing that we talked about from that paper was 742 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: the conclusion that Venus might have had oceans for two 743 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: billion years, which you give plenty of time for organisms 744 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: to possibly evolve there. But the authors of this paper 745 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: also talk about the possibility that there are organisms living 746 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: in the clouds of Venus today, just like a grinspoon 747 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: is talking about. So the authors note that there are 748 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: lots of good reasons to look for life forms in 749 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,720 Speaker 1: the lower cloud layer of Venus, which is about forty 750 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: seven point five to fifty point five kilometers from the surface. Now, 751 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: if you look at this layer of the atmosphere, it's 752 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: got very moderate temperatures roughly sixty degrees celsius, which is 753 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: about a hundred and forty degrees fahrenheit. It's got moderate pressure, 754 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: it's like one Earth atmosphere roughly, it's got moderate radiation exposure. 755 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: They write that the UV levels in the upper atmosphere 756 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: of Venus are probably similar to the UV levels of 757 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: the archaean Earth's surface, where of course we know micro 758 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: organisms thrived without being destroyed by radiation, and they mentioned 759 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: that it has quote micron sized sulfuric acid aerosols, which 760 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: are water droplets containing sulfuric acid dispersed throughout the clouds. Yeah. Really, 761 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: when you when you think about it, the the atmosphere 762 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: of Venus is kind of it's more it's more like 763 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: the surface of Earth in many respects, you know, uh, 764 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: or at least what we thought without a ground. Yes, 765 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: but but really when you when you think of Earth, though, 766 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: I think of the fact when if you're dealing with 767 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: the hard surface of Earth, most of the hard surface 768 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: of Earth is a is it is it is a cold, 769 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: lightless desert environment. Uh, that is underneath the ocean. That's 770 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: a very good point. Maybe you should think about the 771 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: atmosphere of Venus being less like the atmosphere of Earth 772 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: and more like the waters of the oceans on Earth. 773 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: But anyway, all of this that we've been saying so 774 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: far is just to the point that it's not impossible 775 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: that there could be microorganisms living within the clouds in Venus. 776 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: You know, there there are some favorable conditions. Are there 777 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,879 Speaker 1: any positive reasons to think that there might be organisms there. Well, 778 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: this comes back to the unknown you the absorber that 779 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. Right, So there's this thing that 780 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: we have observed embedded within the Venusian clouds. So let 781 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: me think that, Yeah, there could be alien bacteria in 782 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: the clouds and and when we were looking at the 783 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: unknown UV absorber, this could be it. So NASA has 784 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: studied the unknown UVY absorber for some time and basically 785 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about an atmospheric anomaly that where we see 786 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: UV light being absorbed by something. Right. In general, Venus 787 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: is highly reflective. It's a bright planet, like it shines 788 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: things back out into space when the sun shines on it, 789 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: and the clouds that surround it reflect a lot of sunlight. 790 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: But there is this weird, mysterious UV absorption then creating 791 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: this contrast within the clouds. They're dark patches and patterns 792 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: within the reflective clouds. And the question is what could 793 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: that be? Now we can say what it almost certainly 794 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 1: is not. It's not going to be say, giant atmospheric 795 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: like Manta rays or anything like that. You know, it's 796 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 1: not going to be space whales in the atmosphere of Venus. Uh. 797 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: But it could potentially be like clouds of microorganisms, like 798 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: colonies of microorganisms, kind of uh, you know, not not 799 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: to exaggerated too much, but kind of like the krill 800 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 1: of Venus, but with no whales coming around to scoop 801 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: them up. No, that's a very very good point of comparison, actually, people, 802 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: in fact, the scientists who worked on this have compared 803 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: it to the way you would look at algal blooms 804 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: and bodies of water here on Earth. Uh. That that's 805 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: a good point of comparison because one of the most 806 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: interesting things about these dark patches is that they have 807 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: this kind of shimmering, moving kind of quality to them. Uh. 808 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: A quote from Lemo which he gave in a uh 809 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: in a press releases, he said, quote, Venus shows some 810 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: episodic dark sulfuric rich patches which contrasts up to thirty 811 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: in the ultra violet and muted in longer wavelengths. These 812 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: patches persist for days, changing their shape and contrasts continuously 813 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,919 Speaker 1: and appear to be scale dependent. So yeah, they're they've 814 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: got this weird dynamic quality to them, just like a 815 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: bloom of organism in ocean water. Might. Now I know 816 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: some of you are probably remembering, well, you said that 817 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,720 Speaker 1: there are sulphuric acid clouds up there. How is life 818 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: thriving up there? What? One of the points that the 819 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: lamait makes is that, well, if you consider the fact 820 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: that life on Earth as we know it can thrive 821 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: in acidic conditions, that it can feed on CO two 822 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 1: and produce sulphuric acid. Uh, it all lines up with 823 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: the environments that we we we know to exist in 824 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 1: the in the atmosphere of Venus. Yeah. Now, to be clear, 825 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: we're not saying that this is evidence that there is definitely, 826 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, life in the clouds of Venus. It's just 827 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of interesting evidence that would line 828 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: up with their being patches of micro organisms in the 829 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: clouds of Venus that are making their living this way. Now, 830 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: there there are other options too. It could be chemical, right, 831 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,320 Speaker 1: maybe you've got patches of sulfur dioxide and iron chloride 832 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: absorbing u V in the atmosphere. But that doesn't necessarily 833 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: seem to explain everything we observe, at least not to 834 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: Lama and the co co authors. So there are these 835 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: light absorbing particles dispersed in clouds, and we don't know 836 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,280 Speaker 1: for sure what they are. The idea that their microorganisms 837 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: is a very elegant and exciting hypothesis. But is there 838 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: any way we could test this to see if it's true? 839 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: There is, uh, And we should note we haven't gotten 840 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: detested because anything we've sent through has just has not 841 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: has not had the the the equipment, or or it 842 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: has not spent the necessary amount of time in the atmosphere. 843 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: But there is at least one really awesome proposal for 844 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: studying the atmosphere of Venus, and it involves Shatner. No, 845 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,439 Speaker 1: it involves vamps. Vamps. Yes, and by vamps I don't 846 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: mean the space vampires of of our favorite Toby Hooper 847 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: movie Life for Life Force. Yes. Oh I thought you 848 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: were gonna say Planet of the Vampires. No, No, it 849 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: doesn't involve those space vampires either, though that is that 850 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: is also a good one. Man. I love Planet of 851 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: the Vampires. They've got the best space suits, and they do. 852 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: They're so style leather space suits. But this this is 853 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 1: pretty stylish too. I think, if if you'll, if you'll 854 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: allow me here to discuss the venous atmospheric maneuverable platform 855 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: or vamp please do Robert, which is a proposed Northrop 856 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: Grumman planetary exploration vehicle, and you should you used to 857 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: look up images of this at home. It looks kind 858 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: of like a flying wing, which is interesting considering that 859 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: Northrop Grumman made the original flying wing aircraft, the experimental 860 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: y B thirty five and YB forty nine, the former 861 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: with propellers the ladder with the jets uh from the 862 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: from the mid to late nineteen forties. I don't think 863 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 1: I know what those are? What are what are they like? 864 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: They essentially imagine a big boomerang as a nineteen forties bomber, 865 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,919 Speaker 1: and that's what you have with the YB thirty five 866 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: and the YP forty nine. These are military air yes, yeah, 867 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: they were designed to be big bombers, and Northrop Grumman 868 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: later came back and did the B two Spirit stealth bomber. 869 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: So if you've seen images of the stealth bomber, then 870 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: you have seen a flying wing aircraft. Yeah. So they 871 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,720 Speaker 1: really like the idea of a of a flying wing. 872 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: And in fact, this the VAMPS concept involves sending one 873 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: to Venus, So we're talking about a propeller driven flying 874 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: wing UH type of craft. That's solar powered and also 875 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: semi buoyant, So it's kind of a blimp plane hybrid, 876 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: but it's a prop plane in Venus. Yeah. Yeah, it's 877 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: a prop plane. That's this. Yeah. I love the idea 878 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: that that one day we could have a propeller driven 879 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: vehicle in the atmosphere of Venus. Uh. It would have 880 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: about a hundred and eighty foot or fifty five wing span, 881 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: It would fly at a mac speed of about thirty 882 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: per second or sixty seven miles per hour, and that 883 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: it's desired altitude would would be something about fifty to 884 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: seventy kilometers or thirty to forty five miles above the 885 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: hard surface of the planet. All right, So that would 886 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: put it within access to that nice range that La 887 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,439 Speaker 1: Maya and colleagues were talking about, right. I should also 888 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: point out that this is what's categorized as a lifting 889 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,719 Speaker 1: entry atmospheric flight system or a LEAF system, which has 890 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: also been proposed for explorations on Mars and Titan. Uh. 891 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: But here's here's just a quote from the material that 892 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: North of Grumman has on the VAMP project. The VAMP 893 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: is quote, an aeroshell less hypersonic entry vehicle that transitions 894 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: to a semi buoyant, maneuverable solar powered air vehicle for 895 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: flight in Venus's atmosphere. So it's an atmospheric rover and 896 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: it could last for up to a year in Venus's atmosphere, 897 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: just flying through the upper and mid cloud layers, equipped 898 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,440 Speaker 1: with with with the atmospheric sampling equipment, including equipment that 899 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: could help us determine if there are signs of microbial 900 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: life within the skies of Venus. Loving this for multiple reasons. 901 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,759 Speaker 1: Number one, I of course always just love good space exploration. 902 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: Uh and and let's look for life. Come on. But 903 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: on top of that, since it's a prop plane, I'm 904 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: imagining it's got to also have a surly mechanic with 905 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: a big wrench sticking out of the overalls. That's like 906 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,799 Speaker 1: working on it. Yeah, one would imagine, um but kind 907 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 1: of yellow and sulfur stand right. Yeah. I do have 908 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,640 Speaker 1: to point out that it's very early days still for 909 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: for VAMP, but it is one of the options. It's 910 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,320 Speaker 1: very much on the table for future exploration of Venus. 911 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: I like it, man, Yeah, And until we send something 912 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: like that, we just we can't say for certain. When 913 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: it comes to the question of microbial life in the 914 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,799 Speaker 1: clouds there. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait 915 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: and see. No, wait, we don't have to just wait 916 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: and see what we can We can publicly encourage space exploration. 917 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 1: Come on now, yeah, yeah, Now. Earlier on we were 918 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,279 Speaker 1: talking about the possibility of life in Venus and you 919 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: you want to step further, and you said, well, what 920 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,959 Speaker 1: about intelligent life? Now, I know that's kind of hard 921 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: to imagine because let's say, according to these predictions based 922 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: on the papers we've been talking about today, that maybe 923 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: Venus had oceans for two billion years before the runaway 924 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: greenhouse effect killed all that we know from experience in 925 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,080 Speaker 1: the history of the Earth that two billion years of 926 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 1: access to oceans is not enough time to evolve complex 927 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: multicellular organisms with brains and the ability to build civilizations 928 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,360 Speaker 1: and all that. But let's just imagine things went different 929 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: there for some reason. Maybe evolution happened faster. We don't know. Um, 930 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 1: what would things be like if say, you have an 931 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,640 Speaker 1: intelligent civilization on a planet, maybe at the level of 932 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: technological achievement that human civilization is at right now, and 933 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,759 Speaker 1: you realize all your scientists tell you, okay, we've got 934 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: runaway greenhouse effect going on. We've got a couple hundred 935 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: years before things get intolerable on the surface of this planet. 936 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,359 Speaker 1: What are you gonna do? And I wonder, well what 937 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: could be done? I mean, is that just definitely the 938 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: end for the species? Or can you somehow try to 939 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,360 Speaker 1: come up with some sustainable way to retreat to the 940 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:58,280 Speaker 1: subterranean realm? Can you get can you get geothermal power? Uh? 941 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, making lightbulbs for you to 942 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: grow plants down there? I just like wonder what's possible? 943 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: How long can you survive on a planet that doesn't 944 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: want to host life on its surface anymore? Oh? Wow? 945 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,959 Speaker 1: I mean, well, this is this is a wonderful sci 946 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: fi question. And in fact, you have some some fairly 947 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: old works that kind of explored a bit there. The 948 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: old William Hope Hodgson book The Night Lands. Oh. I 949 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: haven't read that. It's um it's tremendous work of early 950 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,879 Speaker 1: essentially post apocalyptic literature in which the earth has grown dark. 951 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: It's it's the night Lands now. And there's this place 952 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,359 Speaker 1: called the Last Red Doubt, and so it's like a 953 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,839 Speaker 1: pyramid and artificial uh structure created by humans and it's 954 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: powered by hydrothermal power. And this is where essentially the 955 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:52,160 Speaker 1: last remnants of humanity have have have assembled themselves and 956 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,920 Speaker 1: tried to sort of hold on to life against the 957 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: darkness and the cold. Sounds bleak, Robert, it's pretty bleak. 958 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: It's it's it's kind gorgeous in its own way. But well, 959 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: but we're talking about oblique concept. We're talking about a 960 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: life form losing its environment and having to adapt to 961 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,200 Speaker 1: some sort of new take on life, either by retreating 962 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,520 Speaker 1: into the darkness or finding a way to live up 963 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: in the clouds. Yeah. And then of course this is 964 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 1: premised on the idea that if the scientists of Venusian 965 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 1: civilization did come to them and say, look, we've only 966 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: got a couple hundred years before, you know, it's too 967 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,600 Speaker 1: hot to live on this planet anymore, would people actually 968 00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: pay attention to them and do anything right? It would 969 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of depend on what's the lifespan of of of 970 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,839 Speaker 1: the Venusian uh beings here. If it's like humans, then 971 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: if when you tell a human all right, we need 972 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 1: to do something because something bad happens in two hundred years, 973 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, I'm not going to be 974 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,360 Speaker 1: alive for that, right, what's what's happening tomorrow? What's happening, Uh, 975 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: the week after next, what's happening maybe next year? Because 976 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,840 Speaker 1: we as a species don't have a great track record 977 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: for long term planning, we can maybe think maybe thinking 978 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,919 Speaker 1: to the next generation, if we're being generous. Uh. So, 979 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't think the human model, uh leaves much hope 980 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:12,319 Speaker 1: for for what a Venusian life form might have accomplished. Yeah, 981 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,479 Speaker 1: you can imagine there was a lot of oh, these 982 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, runaway greenhouse effect alarmists. Yeah, yeah, or two 983 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,359 Speaker 1: hundred years. Well, in the next generation, they'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, 984 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: the technology will come online and they'll just fix everything. Uh. 985 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: And while they're off chatting about it, the the oceans 986 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,840 Speaker 1: boil away, and then they boil away as well. But 987 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: maybe a few are able to crawl down into their crips, 988 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, and maybe a few were able to make 989 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,319 Speaker 1: it up into their cloud cities. I don't know if 990 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,839 Speaker 1: they can keep the others from from dragging them out 991 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: or dragging them back down. I guess this maybe deserves 992 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: a whole episode. Someday we should come back and examine 993 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,160 Speaker 1: the idea of how long could a say, an ecosystem 994 00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 1: be maintained purely in a subterranean existence. Could you go 995 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,200 Speaker 1: on indefinitely if you had incoming energy sources? Yeah. I 996 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 1: love talking about subterranean life, so that would be a 997 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: great topic to discuss in the meantime. Uh, we thank 998 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: everybody for joining us on this trip to Venus and 999 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,400 Speaker 1: UH if you if you enjoy this episode, let us know, 1000 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: let us know what other planets, so, what other moons 1001 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,360 Speaker 1: even you would like us to explore in future episodes. 1002 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,440 Speaker 1: You can check out all of our past episodes. That' 1003 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind. Dot com that's the mothership. 1004 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: That's where we'll find links out to our various social 1005 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: media accounts. 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