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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 1: Some true crime stories stay with us because of the

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Speaker 1: crimes that were committed. Others stay with us because they

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Speaker 1: force us to ask impossible questions about victims, justice, survival,

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Speaker 1: and the people left behind. Today we're joined by Jenny Garth,

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Speaker 1: who brought to life two very different true crime stories

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Speaker 1: nearly three decades apart. In nineteen ninety four, she starred

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Speaker 1: as Lori Kellogg in Lies of the Heart, the controversial

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Speaker 1: case of an abused wife convicted in the murder of

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Speaker 1: her husband. Then in twenty twenty one, she played Michelle Reeves,

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Speaker 1: the mother of Ashley Reeves, the Illinois teenager who survived

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Speaker 1: after being left for dead in the woods for nearly

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Speaker 1: thirty hours. Jenny, Welcome to Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 2: This is exciting. Ope, I don't get killed.

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Speaker 1: I listen, not on my watch, sister. I hope you

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Speaker 1: know either.

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Speaker 2: You got my back. I know that. I love you

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Speaker 2: so much. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank you for being here. I love you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy that we have a reason to come

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Speaker 1: together for this to talk about these We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about two separate movies, and first we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about Lies of the Heart, the Lori Kellogg's story,

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Speaker 1: which I have to say, I was so disturbed by

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Speaker 1: this movie and you are so very good in it,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of can't believe that it was greenlit

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Speaker 1: in the nineties. There were like so many things about

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Speaker 1: it that I think are quite progressive that we'll get into,

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Speaker 1: but this is you were twenty years old when you

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Speaker 1: shot this, and it is a case involving domestic abuse

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Speaker 1: and murder conspiracy, and you know, and you were so

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Speaker 1: good in it and playing a teenager into the early

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Speaker 1: twenties and like your little voice, You're just it's so

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Speaker 1: upsetting because it really forces the audience to really consider

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Speaker 1: how young this girl was when this happened to her.

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Speaker 1: So did you, like, how did you handle all of that?

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like it was a lot to take

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Speaker 1: on such a dark and complicated role so young?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was looking, I mean, this is like a

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Speaker 2: dream role. You know, we're always looking for roles that

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Speaker 2: are different than something that we've done before. I love,

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Speaker 2: you know, the range of drama like I thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: and also just very excited to get the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: play a real person instead of just a fictional character.

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Speaker 2: And so all of those things lined up. And then

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Speaker 2: the content of the film, well, first of all, just

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Speaker 2: being able to tell Lori's story. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 2: our interpretation of it, and the content was so so

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Speaker 2: heavy and so but so beautiful and then so awful,

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Speaker 2: like it had so such a you know, this spectrum

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Speaker 2: of emotions and situations and and all of the things

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Speaker 2: that it was a really exciting opportunity for me as

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Speaker 2: such a young actress. I don't think. I think I

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Speaker 2: jumped in. Like most things in my life, I just

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Speaker 2: jump in and I say yes to something when it

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Speaker 2: feels right, and I jump in. I have no idea

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Speaker 2: how I'm going to figure it out or navigate it

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Speaker 2: or play it or anything. I just jump in to

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Speaker 2: an opportunity. And I think that happened with this and

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Speaker 2: I until I I mean, I just rewatched it last night.

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Speaker 1: You did, Yeah, So what did you think in retrost?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have a million questions about it. How

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Speaker 1: do you How did you feel about it now?

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Speaker 2: Watching it? I was I had the same feelings like

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Speaker 2: the little girl voice of the character and knowing that, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: my earlier in my life, I had a much softer voice,

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Speaker 2: But I don't think I think that was like a

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Speaker 2: choice that I was playing when she was younger. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and just I loved seeing like that age range too,

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Speaker 2: and being able to track actually the timeline of the

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Speaker 2: events through, like the way they dressed the character and

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Speaker 2: the hair choices, and you know, just the feelings of

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Speaker 2: the scenes. When she was so young. It was so

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Speaker 2: creepy sixteen years old. I mean, obviously she's not coming

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Speaker 2: from the most supportive, attentive family life. You know, her

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Speaker 2: situation as an only child, mom, stepdad who's not a

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Speaker 2: real person, like he's just who sold her.

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Speaker 1: For people who don't know apparently sold her for five

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars to this man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah gotch And I felt like she was just so

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Speaker 2: innocent and so ready for some love her life, and

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Speaker 2: this guy came in and swooped her off her feet,

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Speaker 2: and she did not even care that she got sold

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Speaker 2: for five hundred dollars. She was so happy to be there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of There are so many things

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Speaker 1: that are tragic about it, but that in particular, thinking

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Speaker 1: about that age and not having any kind of real

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Speaker 1: male role models or supportive love in any way, and

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Speaker 1: just really desperate for that love and that kind of approval,

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Speaker 1: and then thinking traditionally like, oh, if I married someone,

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Speaker 1: then I get a family and then I get all

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Speaker 1: these things, and that's just how it works. Like so

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Speaker 1: the naivete of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you see that she did kind

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Speaker 2: of level up. She got to be you know, taken

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Speaker 2: care of financially in a much different way. She lived

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Speaker 2: in a big, beautiful home. She had, you know, everything

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Speaker 2: that she needed, the comforts, but she also had to

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Speaker 2: get up and make him breakfast and set out his clothes,

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Speaker 2: what else. Just she did everything that a good little

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Speaker 2: wife was supposed to do. He kept calling her what

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Speaker 2: do he call it? My good my little wife or

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Speaker 2: something something really weird, and yeah, what was that? Yeah

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Speaker 2: it was just gross. But I mean for some women,

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Speaker 2: that's what they want, you know, they want that domestic

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Speaker 2: you know, typical. I am a great wife and I

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Speaker 2: have so much pride in being the best wife possible,

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Speaker 2: and that's what I you know, how I'm happiest and

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Speaker 2: I say congrats, good for you. I love that for

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Speaker 2: you but for me watching it, I think for a

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Speaker 2: lot of women, especially as we've gotten older, like watching

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Speaker 2: that happen to this girl was like, oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it's especially and very specifically because of her

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Speaker 1: age that it's clear her mind is not fully formed.

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Speaker 1: Her brain quite literally is not fully formed and so

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Speaker 1: not really understanding what she's getting into. And that is

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Speaker 1: it's like the textbook road to abuse by a man.

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Speaker 1: Like any a healthy man of thirty something is not

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Speaker 1: going to try to, you know, coerce a sixteen year

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Speaker 1: old girl to be his wife.

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Speaker 2: He's not a good guy, Like from the get go.

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Speaker 2: I was actually shocked knowing Gregory Harrison's career path to

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Speaker 2: that point and being this beloved, like kind of heart

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Speaker 2: draw as trapper John m d Right. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: was actually shocked that this was a choice that he

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Speaker 2: and his team decided would be a good one because

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Speaker 2: there's just nothing redeeming about him. Thinking that too, I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's I want to do something different, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I get that, but I was like, there's just no,

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Speaker 2: He's a bad dude.

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Speaker 1: There is literally not a thing that is redeeming, but

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Speaker 1: he plays it in such a charming kind of a

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Speaker 1: way that it's pretty brilliant casting in that regard.

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Speaker 2: He was so great in the role. You know what

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Speaker 2: was redeeming was his shirtless or you know, his shirtless

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Speaker 2: scenes that was redeeming. I don't remember then being like wow,

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Speaker 2: but I must have. I was just so young and inexperienced.

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Speaker 1: I know you must have felt like very I mean,

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Speaker 1: was that awkward because they didn't have intimacy coordinators back

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Speaker 1: in the day. It was like just get in there.

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Speaker 2: Get I can remember him handling it very gently, like

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Speaker 2: you know, and very cautious and the director was. But

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Speaker 2: watching it back now, those scenes were intense. I started

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Speaker 2: watching it with my two members of my family. Both

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Speaker 2: of them left. They're like, I can't watch this. It's

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Speaker 2: too heavy. I don't like seeing you in that position

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Speaker 2: as a young woman, and you know, it was weird.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, but guys, it's acting. I'm just acting,

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Speaker 2: like real.

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Speaker 1: What a great job I did. Nobody, especially like in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom scenes. You know, we all know movies like

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Speaker 1: this that were called movies of the week back then.

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Speaker 1: There's kind of a spectrum of them, and this is

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Speaker 1: one of those that is really like you do beautiful

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Speaker 1: work in it. It's very upsetting.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I know, I know, I don't remember much

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Speaker 2: of it. I know I gave it my all, like

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty percent, and I now as a

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Speaker 2: grown woman, can watch it and appreciate the performance of

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Speaker 2: that young actress. Yeah. I thought. I was like, that

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Speaker 2: wasn't bad because I usually don't love watching myself. I know,

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Speaker 2: but it's been so long, it's kind of like a

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Speaker 2: different person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think only like the true narcissists really like

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Speaker 1: to watch obsess. I can't. I think like twenty the

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Speaker 1: twenty year mark is like the sweet spot for me too.

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Speaker 1: To watch something twenty years later I'm like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's not bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or just be like look at her go wow, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, like wow, I really did it.

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Speaker 3: Wait?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to hear another crazy out of this

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Speaker 2: world story?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Of course.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what your next question is going to be,

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Speaker 2: but I have to tell you this.

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Speaker 1: Can't be as good as whatever this answer is going

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Speaker 1: to be.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Gregory Harrison played the lead in that movie My

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Speaker 2: love Interest. We had all those intimate physical scenes, he

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Speaker 2: beats her, all the things cut to my now ex

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Speaker 2: husband father of my daughters is has a baby in

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend whatever you call her fiance. I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: that's Gregory Harrison's daughter. Can you track?

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 2: So might just listen to my daughters that this is

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Speaker 2: grandpa Greg.

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Speaker 1: Now that looks crazy. It is wild.

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Speaker 2: So every time they look at him they can't.

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Speaker 1: They're like, so that's probably an added layer is to die.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps they didn't want to watch.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure she was like, killer, this is too weird.

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Speaker 2: That's a grandpa Gary, Grandpa Greg.

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Speaker 1: Also he's like, it's easy on the grandpa. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: just take that out of no.

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Speaker 2: I think he's okay with it.

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Speaker 1: Now, that's great. I would be. I'm okay with grandma.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any grandchildren yet. Scarlet's fourteen, so let's

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Speaker 1: talk out. You can go there, but I'd be okay

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: There's something really cool about that weird, full circleish moment

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Speaker 2: of working with someone so young and so many years earlier,

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Speaker 2: and then working with them again. I mean, not working

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Speaker 2: with them, but like having them into your life, like

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Speaker 2: a small, small way right right?

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Speaker 1: That is wild. I love that. I love that. What

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you was, did you find

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Speaker 1: yourself sympathizing with Laurie, but also struggling with the fact

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Speaker 1: that someone did end up dead like she did kill.

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Speaker 1: Have this man killed or was participated in a plan?

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Speaker 2: I mean not, honestly I felt I felt for Laurie.

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Speaker 2: I was on Laurie's side obviously too, but even as

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Speaker 2: not an act write like, I think that she was captured.

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Speaker 2: She was haunted and captured and then enslaved into life

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Speaker 2: that she made the best of and maybe she loved.

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Speaker 2: But this man abused her physically, mentally, emotionally. He was

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Speaker 2: a sex offender to the children that she had in

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Speaker 2: her home, that she was babysitting to contribute to the

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Speaker 2: household money. I honestly do not have a bad feeling

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Speaker 2: about him dying. That man not being you know, able

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Speaker 2: to do that to other young women. Yep, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I agree, kind of black and white, but it's the

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Speaker 2: way I feel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because I think that we or do you

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Speaker 1: think that now we have a better understanding of kind

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Speaker 1: of abused women, syndrome and all of those kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: I certainly hope so. But I'm sure there are women

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Speaker 2: out there that if they saw this movie now, they'd

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Speaker 2: be like Oh my gosh, that's happening to me. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they could see that, you know, the dangers in a

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Speaker 2: relationship built the way that one was, And.

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Speaker 1: I appreciated how they did show as she aged a

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Speaker 1: little bit, her realizing I want to educate myself, I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to school, I want to do

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Speaker 1: and then that being such a threat to a man

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Speaker 1: like that, and him just shutting it down, and things

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Speaker 1: kind of getting worse, Like I think those key things

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Speaker 1: are so they are key, They're really important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, and I still don't know if

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Speaker 2: she orchestrated it right right after watching the movie, after

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Speaker 2: playing the character, I couldn't come to a conclusion with that.

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Speaker 2: I had to believe as the character that she didn't

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Speaker 2: right that the and I can imagine a world where

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Speaker 2: she is miserable. These other kids that are always around her,

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Speaker 2: have grown up around her, are have been in awful

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Speaker 2: situations because of him, So they have their own hatred

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Speaker 2: for him, each of them, even you know, oh, out,

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Speaker 2: I want to say, Alexis, but even Alex Arquette, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh Alexis Arquet what a great? What a what a great?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, he was great? And I had forgotten that

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Speaker 2: I had even worked with him, so watching it, I

254
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Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh. Serious. But you know, they

255
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Speaker 2: these these secondary characters all had their reasons for like,

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Speaker 2: let's just get rid of this guy. He's hurting her,

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Speaker 2: she's miserable, we love her, they're protective of her.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: You know, I can't see she never like contributed to

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Speaker 2: the conversations of let's bring a gun, let's kill him.

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Speaker 2: Every time they talked about that, she was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be a part of that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she kind of knew and wasn't like hating the idea, right, But.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's that whole thing about the distance.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: There have been many cases since then, like the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers being a big one, but you know, where people

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Speaker 1: of that cycle of abuse, and when it's continuous and continuo,

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Speaker 1: you they feel threatened all the time. So kind of

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Speaker 1: the moment when you can be free is when they

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Speaker 1: aren't literally in front of you, you know. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: I think it's such a I mean, I fall very

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Speaker 1: far on the one side of this conversation. I really do,

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Speaker 1: because it's so you know, to me, there is no

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Speaker 1: question that kind of abuse is absolutely despicable.

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Speaker 2: You would ask like, do you think that kind of

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Speaker 2: abuse is like people are more aware of it now

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Speaker 2: or less easily trapped by that? I want to say,

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Speaker 2: I hope, so I hope that we as women have

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Speaker 2: learned a lot and that's not happening, but I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it is. Yeah, And I think that the world, you know,

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Speaker 2: the jury of this case and society that was, you know,

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Speaker 2: talking about it when it was happening, they were all

285
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Speaker 2: like thought she was lying. They all thought that she was,

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Speaker 2: you know, just wanted to kill this guy, right, right,

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Speaker 2: And I just I could never believe that in my heart.

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Speaker 2: And if she did good on her master at the lie, but.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it doesn't even seem feasible because it

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Speaker 1: all they also I also appreciate how they in the

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Speaker 1: film they talk about this that Alexis's character, who had

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Speaker 1: been in and out of juvenile hall and jail and things,

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Speaker 1: that he was himself abused in prison, and so he

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Speaker 1: understood what that felt like and how you kind of

295
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Speaker 1: can't you don't ever recover from that, especially if you

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Speaker 1: don't have any kind of support of any in any

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Speaker 1: you know, any regard. And so it also contributes to

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Speaker 1: understanding how he could maybe take the leap to kill

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Speaker 1: this man, because you know, like you, you sort of

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Speaker 1: can psychologically follow those steps in a person who has

301
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Speaker 1: been abused themselves and is in a damaged situation.

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Speaker 2: It was a little murky because I couldn't tell if

303
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Speaker 2: that character was in love with Laurie or just wanted

304
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Speaker 2: to support her and protect her. I mean, walking into

305
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Speaker 2: her in the shower is a little a little too supportive,

306
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Speaker 2: but wrong kind of support. Yeah, But I honestly I

307
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Speaker 2: could feel like his love for her and then him

308
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Speaker 2: wanting to just get rid of this guy he's a

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Speaker 2: bad dude.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean the things that I read when I

311
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Speaker 1: researched it beyond the movie to see what was real

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Speaker 1: perhaps and what was added. And you know, there were

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Speaker 1: conflict not conflicting really, but different stories that he was

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Speaker 1: in love with her, that he also was doing this

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Speaker 1: on behalf of his girlfriend, which they cover in the

316
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Speaker 1: in the Your film.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was Nicole that he was with, the blonde,

318
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Speaker 2: and TC warnered it such a great job. I remember

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Speaker 2: loving working with her because she I think she might

320
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Speaker 2: be like a couple of years older than me, and

321
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Speaker 2: we were just like they put her in pigtails and

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Speaker 2: make her look like a little girl. She was older

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Speaker 2: than me, so it was very weird, right, right.

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Speaker 3: I really loved working with her.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like the film took a side?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I feel like which film took Glorie's side because

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Speaker 2: she seemed innocent and like a victim. Yeah, And that's

328
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Speaker 2: how I really had to feel playing her, because that

329
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Speaker 2: was the story that was being told, That was the

330
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Speaker 2: story that was written on the paper. If it had

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Speaker 2: been a story of her conniving and you know, really

332
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Speaker 2: masterminding this murder, I would have obviously played it completely differently.

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Speaker 1: Right, Did you know anything about it before you signed on?

334
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Speaker 1: About the actual case?

335
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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I had done a lot of research and

336
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Speaker 2: studying of as much studying of her as I could.

337
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Speaker 2: I wanted to go visit her in jail. I was

338
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Speaker 2: not allowed to, So yeah, I was just eager, and

339
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Speaker 2: I really wanted to look more physically like her, and

340
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Speaker 2: I fought for that to you know, give me more,

341
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Speaker 2: you know, change my appearance so that I actually looked

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Speaker 2: like the real character. Those are the true life stories

343
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Speaker 2: that I love. When you see Patricia Arquette, for example,

344
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Speaker 2: just transforming physically and looking like actually looking like what's

345
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Speaker 2: her name, the Murdoch, and yes, insane, that's what I

346
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 2: wanted to do, and that was another reason I was

347
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 2: so excited to do it, and they wouldn't let me

348
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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, of course they were like, no, you're not

350
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Speaker 1: playing Kelly Taylor, but we needed to look Kelly Taylor to.

351
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Speaker 2: Sell this movie. But maybe that would be different now,

352
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Speaker 2: So I could have definitely like stood my ground a

353
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Speaker 2: little more solidly and pushed back more on that, but

354
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Speaker 2: they wouldn't go for it.

355
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's understandable then, especially so obviously one

356
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Speaker 1: of the most I don't even know if you could

357
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Speaker 1: say the most one. Another disturbing thing about this is

358
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Speaker 1: that the actual shooter that we spoke about, his name

359
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: is Denver McDowell. He was only seventeen years old when

360
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: he committed this. So what at the time, what did

361
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: you make of the fact that so many young people

362
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Speaker 1: were involved in such a horrific crime.

363
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Speaker 2: Sad, This is really sad. But all of those people

364
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: had been you know, had had terrible lives as far

365
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Speaker 2: as like family, they had bad homes, you know, and

366
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Speaker 2: that they found one another felt nice like they had

367
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Speaker 2: each other but I mean bad things were still happening

368
00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: to them that. I mean, it's a shame that, you know, one, two, three,

369
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Speaker 2: four young people spent years and years in jail. Yeah, yeah,

370
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Speaker 2: because T. C. Warner's character that she didn't shoot the gun,

371
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Speaker 2: you know, lri Kellogg didn't shoot the gun. But they

372
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Speaker 2: served twenty I mean, I know Laurie served twenty six

373
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Speaker 2: years in jail.

374
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I believe the other girls she served I

375
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Speaker 1: want to say, like fifteen or ten to fifteen something

376
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Speaker 1: quite for just.

377
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Speaker 2: Being around the conversation associated with it, you know.

378
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Speaker 1: Yeah, essentially of the man who is guilty. I understand

379
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Speaker 1: that he paid the price of being murdered, but he

380
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Speaker 1: was the source of all of this, which is what

381
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Speaker 1: just really makes me crazy.

382
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Speaker 2: That makes bad you know, It's like, yeah, but do

383
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Speaker 2: you think that I always wondered this too, especially after

384
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Speaker 2: watching it last night. Would those two women be able

385
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: to connect like that in jail? Like would they be

386
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Speaker 2: able to sit together?

387
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: That was my question. I was wondering that too. That

388
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Speaker 1: feels like that that can't be real.

389
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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it was just like the luck they

390
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: got both sent to the same institution penitentiary. Was it

391
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 2: called jail and the you know, the other girl wasn't

392
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 2: didn't seem to be there, or maybe they just couldn't

393
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 2: get her on that shooting day. I don't know, right,

394
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: maybe she was unavailable that day.

395
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,479
Speaker 1: But I did wonder about that also, because you know,

396
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: that is at least some saving grace amidst a horrific situation.

397
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt I felt like warmth in my heart

398
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: for the fact that they had one another the.

399
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did really appreciate that about the film also,

400
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: that which you mentioned, how it seems like they at

401
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: least had one another amidst very dysfunctional and unhappy situations

402
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: in life even before prison, Like that little crew of

403
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: people you know, were kind of just they had each

404
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: other to lean on and kind of doing the best

405
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: with what they had.

406
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Speaker 2: Right, I feel better about it somehow, Yeah, because they

407
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: had each other.

408
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, did you so this whole the Lori Kellogg case,

409
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: it sparked a lot of debate about abuse and accountability

410
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: and justice And were you aware of how passionately people

411
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: disagreed about her guilt and her punishment.

412
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were just a lot. There was a lot

413
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: of conversation about it. When she you know, got convicted,

414
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: and that it didn't really go away because every time

415
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: she would try to get out or plea or whatever,

416
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: you know, try to get out of jail early, it

417
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 2: would come the conversation would just get more and more heated.

418
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 2: And it's crazy that people who have nothing to do

419
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: with it, probably don'y even know her or him or anything,

420
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: are so vehemently like, you know, on his side. They

421
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: don't know what win happened in that house. And that

422
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: that brings me to like humanity, like what the fuck?

423
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: Like why why do y'all have such polarizing opinions? Right?

424
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: And if you do have them, like, don't mean to

425
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: like get on your pulpit.

426
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: Or physically go to a place with big signs and

427
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: yelling and screaming about.

428
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 2: It and telling her she's a horror and she's a liar.

429
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I felt so bad for her. So young.

430
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 2: I know, the pictures of her when she gets out

431
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: of jail, she's still so young.

432
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: I just looked at some of the pictures of her

433
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: being walked up the stairs to the courtroom or down

434
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: the stairs courtroom, and you just think, oh my word,

435
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: this person is so young, so young.

436
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 2: I don't think that I still again, I don't think

437
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: she had it into her in her to kill someone,

438
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: even if she was being abused. She was, she was

439
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: a victim in that respect of whether whether she did

440
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: that to herself kept her in that situation or belief

441
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: that she I mean, it comes from her raising, being

442
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: raised and sold and like not loved, like she probably

443
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: doesn't know her worth, doesn't right, she wanted to like

444
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: she yeah, like you said, she kept dipping her trying

445
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: to go to school or learn things. And I just

446
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: don't think that this crime was orchestrated by her.

447
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: If you couldn't meet her and you could ask her

448
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: one thing or or tell her one thing, like what

449
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: would you ask or what would you say?

450
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 2: Well, I would ask her, did you do it?

451
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: I mean like I'll be that one question, one question

452
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: that's it.

453
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: Did you do it? Did you do it? I need

454
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: to know? And what the one thing I would tell her,

455
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: I would say, I hope I played you well, Like

456
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: I hope I did my job well.

457
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: Well I think you did.

458
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 2: I think you did that means something.

459
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll leave it there for today, and next time

460
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: Jenny returns to talk about another unforgettable case, we'll discuss

461
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: the shocking attack on seventeen year old Ashley Reeves and

462
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: her extraordinary survival story at the heart of Left for Dead,