WEBVTT - Debt-Free Degrees w/ Jason Brown #725 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.560 Matt and today we're talking debt free degrees with Jason Brown. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.000 That's right, man, we are going to talk about getting 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.080 your degree debt free with Jason Brown. And just to 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.120 set it up for folks, Jason, he's a friend of ours. 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.840 He's actually local here in Atlanta, so he has joined 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:39.879 us in our in the How to Money clubhouse. I'm 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.839 not necessarily gonna I'm not gonna call it a studio 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.920 per se. He is here in person, which is a 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.040 ton of fun. But Jason, he's contributed to the site, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:49.639 to our site, how to Money. He's written a ton 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.240 of articles there. He's got three kids. Congrats by the way, 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.280 on the you got the new guy there and so 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.480 you born. But you've written multiple books Margin Matters, It 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:04.200 is possible another one. But you've talked about achieving getting 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.679 your degree debt free, and specifically with student loans were starting, 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:10.120 we felt that who better to have here on the 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.800 podcast to talk about not only paying off student loans, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.440 but specifically graduating debt free and avoiding those student loans 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.440 to begin with. So Jason, thank you so much for 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:20.840 joining us today on the podcast. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.720 Wow, that was an amazing introduction there. I really appreciate it. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.960 Probably the best I've ever had. I really appreciate great 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.440 to be with you guys in person, and I can 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.759 only hope and pray that whatever I say just helps 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:37.360 the next generation absolute absolutely avoid the dreaded student loan debt. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.520 So one other thing I'll mention is that I don't 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.360 know if there is anybody else I know that. 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.120 Is taller than Joel. So Joel is a pretty what 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.520 are you? You're like sixx six five sixty six and 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.560 Jason is probably six to seven, you know, six seven 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:49.040 six eight. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.560 Here's the story. I've been telling everybody, I'm six foot eight. 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:53.480 But then they had at the office, they had the 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.560 biometric screening and the guys come in, you know, they 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.640 do your height and weight and I and I wait, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.160 I measured in it six foot seven. So I can 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.520 only believe that gravity, old age bringing me down. So 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.800 now I have to change, you know, my driver's license. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:10.800 I'm six foot seven. Now that's what we're going with. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.200 And I'm not used to looking up with people. I 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.520 don't like it, Jason, but I still like hanging out 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:16.480 with you anyway. But are Okay. The first question we 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.360 ask anybody who comes on the podcast, as you know, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:20.200 is what do they like to sporge on? Matt and 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.200 I we sporge on craft beer. We're drinking a pale 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.280 al right now, what is that for you? While you're 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.560 saving investing? What do you kind of spurge on from 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.120 time to time while you're doing the right thing with 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:29.640 your money? 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.360 Now, as you said, I have three boys, seven, three 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.520 and five months, so at this stage of life, I'm 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.440 not splurging on anything for myself. 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.600 As you guys know, diapers, right, yeah, maybe a sleep 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.080 mask for you and your wife, perhaps. 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.799 Your white noise machine. But the equivalent, I will say, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.280 the equivalent to to what you guys do with your 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.240 with your beer is I am a seven eleven slurpy snob. Okay, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.480 so here's the thing, seven eleven slurpies. Here in Georgia, 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.520 there are no seven elevens, So I can't get a 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.880 slurpe anywhere. So I have to go down to Florida. 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.120 They're they're real big in Florida. You'll find them in 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.400 certain cities in Florida on every street corner. Now, the 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.040 thing about seven elevens, you have to go to a 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:08.840 different seven eleven, you have to go to all of 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.800 them because they all have different flavors, flavor selections. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.400 Really, yeah you did not know. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:14.800 Yeah, it's pretty amazing. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:15.280 Wow. 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.200 So but but the seven eleven Slurpy I've always been 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.840 a slurpe snob. I've always thought that was the best 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.760 you know drink, you know, refreshment you can get. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.120 Some would say like high end Scotch. You're like, no, no, no, 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.880 slurpyn Surpy is the way to go. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.359 Now. I just found this out. Somebody sent me like 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.960 a Facebook message or something to say, hey, you realize 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.520 you can get slurpees at Speedway. I was like, what 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.920 are you talking about? Well, apparently the company that owns 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.480 seven eleven they just bought Speedway the gas station, the 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.520 gas station chap and there's actually two speedways that are closed. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:49.760 There's one in Alpharetta, Georgia, and there's one in Cardigsvill, Georgia. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.840 And I've already been to both to confirm this. So 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.880 this is true. At Speedway they have the seven eleven 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.920 slurpey machines inside the Speedway gas stations. There are some 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:02.800 now in Georgia. If you're in the area. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.360 I'm glad you can get your fix without having to 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.360 drive seven hours, you know, because then it truly is 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:08.680 a splurge for you to have to drive to another state. 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.160 It takes a while to get down to Florida. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.080 That's a good point because it's you know, it's a 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.600 dollar drink, so it's you know, really not a splurge, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.680 but then hundred bucks and gas though, debt's the slurge 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:19.400 and the time to get there. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.200 Yeah, I love that one. Let's start talking about kind 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.280 of the subject and hey, let's talk about debt, free 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.800 degrees and paying for college and payments like we, like 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.080 Matt said at the beginning, they're about to restart on 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.800 student loans in just a few days. We all know 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.040 that student loan debt is a massive problem. This is 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.080 something you've been highlighting for a bunch of years in 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.320 your work. Can you put it into context for us though? 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:40.880 Can you kind of maybe share some numbers and talk 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.760 about some people have called it a crisis, like is 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.560 is student loan debt a crisis? Yeah? 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.479 You know, I've got some pretty strong opinions on all. Yes, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.279 it's a crisis, but yet it to me, it's a 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.400 student loan debt crisis. But it's also a student loan 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:00.280 debt scam because young seventeen eighteen year old kids are 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.640 being presented with only one option to go to college debt. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.640 And actually I interviewed a girl in my book and 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.520 she told me the story. She said, when I went 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.520 to the orientation session at her university, they set her 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.800 down and they said, you have three options. These are 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:16.920 your options to pay for school, Option A, B, and C. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.200 All the options were debt. Those are the only options 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.200 that she was presented. And she said, Jason, if my 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.560 dad wasn't in the room with me, he grabbed my 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:26.840 arm and dragged me out of the room, or else 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:28.960 I would have just signed one of these contracts. I'm 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.360 taken debt out now. To your point, Joel, we're looking 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.560 at seventy percent of students take out loans to help 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.080 pay for colleges. That's a tremendous amount. 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.279 Sounds low to me. Oh, you're thinking it's higher. I 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.040 was thinking it would be more even like that, But 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:44.719 that's still a lot. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.359 It's significant. And the big problem, guys is the people 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.520 that I feel for the most is that we have 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:57.520 in our country forty percent of all college students never graduate. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.960 They drop out for whatever reason, they run out of mind, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.159 any life happens, you know, maybe they start a family 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.000 or whatever. There's lots of reasons why people don't make 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.240 it through college. But those are the people that have 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.679 gone through taken out debt, but never. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:10.200 Got the degree. 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.440 So those are the people that are really suffering the 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:13.800 most with the student loan debt. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.560 Crist I agree, those people are behind the a ball 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.479 to the biggest extent because no degree, no increased earnings 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.200 oftentimes to show for the work, but they saw the 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:23.039 debt alongside it. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.560 Yeah, it's like a double whammy in effect. So given that, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.240 given the fact that there are a lot of folks 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.600 who aren't even graduating, so they're not you know, they 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.039 don't have the fruit from their labor to show for it. 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.160 So that's one. That's one group of folks. But even 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.039 for the folks who are graduating, who do get the degree, 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.719 who have the potential for increased earnings, do you feel 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:47.560 that the value proposition has changed considering the drastic inflation 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.080 that we've seen with higher education, specifically with going to college. 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.559 So you mean, like, are we talking to Roli? 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:58.040 Yeah, is it worth the money because they're worth for generations, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:06:58.800 I mean decades. 0:06:59.160 --> 0:06:59.640 Like I was. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.080 The thing I was ever told as a little kid 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.120 growing up, is like you better go to college. And 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.080 I know my parents enough and they loved me no 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.080 matter what. And if I had not gone to college, 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.080 they certainly would have continued to love me, but they 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.760 would have been disappointed. They would have really been upset. 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:16.760 I think if I chose not to unless I had 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.920 a really great plan something else on the horizon. But 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:21.960 for a lot of like a lot of students have 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:23.880 been told that they're like, you've got to do this, 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.960 no matter the cost. But with the high costs of college, 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.120 I think there are some folks who are starting to 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:31.360 question whether or not it's worth it. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.320 I think you're spot on, guys, And I'm a little 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:35.760 bit older than you two, but we're kind of in 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:40.520 a similar age range that from our generation. This is 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.520 one of the American dreams, you know, home ownership, college degree. 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:46.920 But let me tell you what. There's only about thirty 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.320 seven percent of Americans even hold a bachelor's degree. So 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.480 think about that for a second, and only about a 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.640 let I think it's thirteen percent, Only about thirteen percent 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.520 have a master's or higher degree, so it's a it's 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.120 a minor, right, and people might not realize that. So 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.880 here's the thing the ROI is it is college worth it? 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.560 That's that's the question now. And really what you have 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.040 to do is you have to really do your due 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.320 diligence and your research on specific degree courses. What does 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.840 it relate to in the job market. And one of 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:18.640 the pieces of advice that I give people is like, hey, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.840 student and parent, go go sit down, Go hire a 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.280 career coach. These guys are going to be the ones 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.360 that can These are the experts that can help you 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.840 match up a degree program with a career industry. Is 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.680 it worth it? Is this degree going to translate to 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.000 a high pain or rewarding career or is this degree 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.720 going to lead to, you know, a thirty thousand dollars 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.080 you know salary, And that's what you have to weigh out. Hey, 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.560 if you're paying for college on your own and you 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.040 go debt free and you want to work in nonprofit 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.640 and make thirty thousand dollars a year, that's you're totally 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.199 fine because you're not leaving school with eighty thousand dollars. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:56.000 A student loan debt. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:57.440 But you don't want to get the degree and still 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:58.920 be a barista at the end of the day, right, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.679 and take on the debt at the same time. Right, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.000 that's gonna saddle you down for years to come, but 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:07.000 not have the increased income to go. I love that 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.240 advice of going talk to an expert about that. Let's 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.040 talk about your story, because you got two debt free degrees, 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:13.920 and I want to talk about like how you went 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.480 about that. But but what made you initially like see 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.679 the importance of avoiding debt in order to take on 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.440 a higher education in the first place, Because, like you said, 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.000 a lot of people, like the girl you highlighted, would 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.520 just sign, oh, I'm seventeen, I'm eighteen. I'm like, yeah, 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.440 well why not if this is the only way, the 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.160 only options that are being presented, I guess I'll do it. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.200 What made you see that there was another path that 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:32.880 you needed to take. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.440 That's such a good question. I get that debt question 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.480 a lot, Joel. And so I went to undergrad and 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.240 started in nineteen ninety three. Okay, so mid to late nineties. Now, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.520 back then, you're not hearing about a student loan, even 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.000 though there was this student loans was going on, but 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.760 you don't hear it in the news back then about 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.040 a student loan debt crisis or anything like that. So 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.640 for me, I was just raised. My parents raised me 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.400 a certain way to you know, avoid debt, to for 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.840 you can't buy it unless you can afford it right now. 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:08.319 Such an antiquated way of right with the times, Jess, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.160 come on, come on now now. 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.680 My parents they didn't really like sit me down and 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.880 teach me about money, like here's how you, you know, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.640 balance a budget, here's how you do a check ledger. 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.080 I just learned from watching them. I never saw my 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.480 dad go out and buy, you know, a brand new 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.240 car and drive it home on a whim. I never 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.000 saw my parents come home on a Friday afternoon, Hey, 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.040 we're all going to Hawaii next week for nothing like that. 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.640 There were no big splurges, there were no you know, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.080 frivolous spending. And my parents were both very frugal people. 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.280 They were very smart with their money, they were savers, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.679 and so I just kind of took on that mentality. 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.040 So when I entered undergrad school in the mid nineties, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.880 debt was really not an option for me because I 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.360 was always taught if you can't pay for it, you 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.480 can't do it. So that was, you know, my mentality. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.120 So I never even thought about taking out a loan. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.720 That never even crossed my mind. It was just like, Okay, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:02.959 well how am I going to pay for this? Let 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:04.760 me go work, let me get I was working three, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.200 you know, three part time jobs. I was, you know, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.680 getting scholarships. I was doing all kinds of stuff resourcefulness, 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.520 just to make my way through. I was going to 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.280 school part time because that's all I could afford. I 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.040 was just kind of pay as you go kind of thing. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.000 So so those are some of the things I did. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.440 But that was my mentality was It was just like 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.080 I can only do what I can. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.760 Afford, which forces you to become creative. Yeah. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:27.960 I was just talking to a buddy and we were 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.120 talking about like leadership, and he said something along the 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.040 lines of oftentimes great leaders have like gosh, I wish 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.920 I could remember the term, but it's like a subconscious 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.680 competence where you don't even realize it. And it sounds 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:40.560 like that you had that to a certain extent when 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.800 it came to your finances. You were subconsciously competent. You 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.160 were subconsciously on the right track. But I like that 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:51.400 you did take some some specific tactics in order to 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.319 ensure that you were not taking on debt. Like can 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.560 you share some of the some of the different creative 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.480 ways that you were able to find it not finance 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.440 but literally paid cash for your college education. 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:03.920 Yeah. 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.240 So when I was in school, I was working. I 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.960 actually this was to the detriment of my GPA by 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:13.240 the way, I worked three part time jobs simultaneously, but 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.480 they were all it was very convenient. So I had 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.840 two on campus jobs, which I recommend people to do 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.840 because a lot of on campus jobs they'll they'll pay, 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.000 you'll get a tuition waiver, and I'll get you a stipend. 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.200 Now I didn't get those in mind, but I just 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.600 got paid like an hourly rate or whatever. But I 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.839 was the at the time, I wanted to get into 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.840 sports broadcasting, so I was actually the sports editor for 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.319 the student newspaper, and then I worked in the sports 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.319 information department with the athletic department. I was doing a 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.160 lot of work with them, working for all the athletic teams. 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.360 And then I also worked a retail job at town 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.720 Center Mall, which was literally almost across the street from campus. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.040 I worked in like a sports apparel shop and you know, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.520 made a whatever the minimum wage was at the time. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.440 Everything sports related there. Yes, there's a common theme. Yes, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:57.880 that was. 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.320 My first passion, my first love. Now, on top of 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.880 just working and you know, kind of paying my way through, 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.120 I also got scholarships. Later on, I actually worked. I 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.120 went and worked for Chick fil A. Now, Chick fil 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:13.320 A has a really good scholarship program now, but back then, 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.520 when I was at Chick fil A, I had to 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.439 be there for two years and I had to work 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.520 two thousand hours, and then they gave me a thousand 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.440 dollars scholarship. Now that might not seem like much in 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.000 today's age, but back then, you know, I'm so old. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.319 We were on the quarter system. I went to Kennesau 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.920 State here just north of Atlanta, and we were on 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.239 the quarter system. So a thousand dollars check paid. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.000 For two quarters. 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.679 So that paid for seventy five percent of my year 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.120 pretty much. So that was a huge help. And then 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.320 so what happened was I was working in the athletic department, 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.160 and most of that was you got a scholarship. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.600 You were the first non athlete to get a scholarship 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:46.400 from the athletic ppartment. 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.320 I got to tell that story. So I was working 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.720 in the athletic department. They had no budget. You know, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.680 at the time, they were at Kinnesaull State. You know, 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.400 it started out as like a junior college and they 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.319 were like a in AIA school. Then they were INCAA 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.080 Division two. So they've they've really come a long way. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.520 Hey, we made it to the tournament last year, that's right. Yeah, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.080 we played, we had value and effort. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.720 Was it was it the Owls State Owls. Yeah, they 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.360 made it the first time ever. Last year they made 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.120 it to the NCAA Men's Ball Yeah, the tournament March Madness. Yeah, 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.160 the first time ever. So their division one there at 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.640 the highest level. Now, so back in my day, there 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.560 was no budget. They couldn't pay me. So what I 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.040 did was I I kind of used it as internship credit, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.960 so I got school credit for working out with them. 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.640 But they did pay me to work games. So whenever 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.040 there was a game, you know, I would work a 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.040 game and you know, do the announcing or whatever, they 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.040 run the scoreboard, and I think they paid me like 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.080 five or ten bucks a game. So I certainly wasn't 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.480 getting rich off that. But what happened was the athletic director, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.000 I think, in his creative way of compensating me because 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.760 I was always, you know, putting in hours of free labor. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.720 So my junior year he put me on a book scholarship. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:52.960 So my junior year of college, I had all my 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.280 books paid for by the athletics department and that was 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.760 a huge, huge help. So then I came back for 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.240 my senior year and I would is completely shocked to 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.240 find out that they had put they had given me 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:08.200 an athletic scholar, a full athletic scholarship that paid for tuition, books, everything, 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.040 And uh yes, I was not an athlete. So I 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.120 hope I didn't take a scholarship away from it from 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.080 an athlete. I don't think I did. I think that 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.640 was just their creative way of compensating me because instead 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.280 of you know, writing me a check that might to 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.320 come out of a budget or whatever, they're just like, hey, 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.320 we'll just you know, we'll waive your tuition in your books. 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:28.600 But that was life changing for me, getting a whole 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.520 year my senior year, a whole year paid for, So 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.600 that was that was a huge huge help to me. 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:34.520 That is huge. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.720 Well, and so you mentioned books too, because I mean 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.040 books aren't cheap, and so there are different paths, different 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.480 routes you can take when it comes to books, Like 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.320 there are more places you can rent books as opposed 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.640 to going to the own campus bookstore and buying it 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.880 brand new, you know, like that spying. Yeah, the spine's 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.240 never been cracked before. Like what yeah, what what's your 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.480 take on some of the different ways to cut the 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:55.000 cost there? 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.080 Now, Now that's a good You've made some good points there, 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.360 because back in my day, none of those were options 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.960 you couldn't rent. But so much has changed now that 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.520 you can really cut down the costs. Back in my day, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.760 it was a huge racket. It was a scam, and 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.600 you would have to you would be forced to buy 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.560 the new book for the class, and then you would say, oh, well, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:16.920 I'll just sell it back at the end of the quarter. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:18.800 And then you couldn't sell it back because the next 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.720 quarter they were moving to a new book exactly, and 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.120 so your book was worthless. So you had to pay 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:24.960 whatever one hundred bucks for a book and then you're 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:25.520 stuck with it. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.320 Right, So those books are more than that now and 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.040 you certainly alludes to the scam portion of the and 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:32.160 you got it higher education. 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.120 And now you can go on Amazon or eBay or 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.160 all these you can go sell them online. You couldn't 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.040 really do it that, you know, in the early nineties, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.080 that wasn't really an option either. So so now, back then, yeah, 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.640 you were, you were held hostage by these book book companies. 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.200 But now, like you said, Matt, you can actually rent books. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.000 You can buy books. I bought now when I went 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.600 back to school for my grad program, which I'll tell 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.360 that story in a second too, but you know, this 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.840 was more recent. I had the option to rent books 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.080 to buy books by use books. I bought all my 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:06.000 books used off Amazon for dirt cheap, and ironically, it 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.679 was cheaper for me to buy a book than rent it, 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.840 or it would either be the same price, like so 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.280 it would be like I could buy the book for 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.040 a fifty bucks or I could rent it for fifty 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.800 bucks for the semester. But hey, I'll just buy the 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.160 book and then hope to sell it, hope to get 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.840 half my money back. That was my strategy. So that's 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:25.679 kind of how I handled it. But it really just 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:27.959 depends on the class or the book. In some cases 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.040 it is a lot cheaper to rent it. It might 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.240 be ten bucks to rent a book versus fifty bucks. 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.400 Then yeah, then it would make more sense to do that. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.359 But there's so much more options now for sure, in 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.040 the digital age that we and now you know a 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.159