WEBVTT - Introducing Marketplace: Hanif Abdurraqib on what it means to “make it” 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.720 Hey, Sacred Scandal listeners. This is Jasmine Romero, host of 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.480 season three, and I'm here to tell you about another 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:12.840 show that I think you might like. When I'm not 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.639 investigating stories about the salvador In Civil war and the 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.800 murders of priests, I am an editor and one of 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:21.960 the shows that I work with is called This Is Uncomfortable. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.320 It's a podcast from Marketplace about life and how money 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.120 messes with it. And each week, our host, Riva Grace 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.000 digs into stories about the unanticipated ways that money shapes 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.599 our choices, our relationships, and even our identities. In this episode, 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.280 which is one of my favorites, she's joined by writer 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.440 Hanif Abdura Kiev, who talks about the moral judgments that 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.000 we're quick to make about people's financial circumstances and his 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.440 notions behind success and legacy and what it means to 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.800 be a good person versus a bad person in a 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.760 deeply unequal world. If you enjoy this episode, you should 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.400 definitely check the podcast out. You can find more episodes 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.440 of This Is Uncomfortable wherever you listen to podcasts. Without 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.560 further ado, Here's Rema and This is Uncomfortable. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.039 You know there is a real difference between being broke 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.360 and being poor. For me to say I'm broke me 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:21.319 you know, I had a couple bad days of dinner. 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:22.920 I don't really got it right now, but I'm working 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.600 on Saturday, and I'm certainly going to make something, you know, 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.440 and to be poor for me when I was like 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.039 unhoused and it was like I genuinely do not know. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:34.759 I can maybe get a little bit of a meal today, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.080 but I don't know if I can get one tomorrow. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.040 That is a prolonged experience, you know what I mean. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.039 That's writer Hanif abdra Keep. Around the time he was 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.640 twenty three, he lost his job and got evicted from 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.000 his apartment in Columbus, Ohio. He didn't have anywhere to go, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:50.440 so he had to get creative. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.160 When I was evicted, I had enough money to get 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:59.280 a storage unit for like three months, and I didn't 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.040 have much, you know, it was only what I could carry, really, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.920 you know. So I took like a nightstand and I 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.880 dragged a mattress over and a lamp and a box 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.120 of clothes, and that was what I had. That was 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.720 all I had. And of course you're not supposed to 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.800 sleep in the storage unit's I think it's illegal, or 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.359 it's illegal in the sense that it puts the storage 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.360 facility in a position of liability. Is yeah, which is understandable, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.240 you know what I mean. So I would have to 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.560 wait until they closed, and then I'd have to kind 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.480 of sneak into my unit and I would sleep there. 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.720 Well, I'm curious at that time, did the people in 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:37.760 your life know or did you keep it a secret? 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:40.639 I kept it largely a secret. It was easy to 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.040 keep secret, you know, in part because my storage unit 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.320 was right by my old apartment, and so I could 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.440 just still have people drop me off at my apartment 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:49.399 or whatever, and then I would just walk over. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.040 Wow, when they were like driving away, you would just wait. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.280 Yeah, no one really knew. And I still had a 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.240 gym membership and so I could shower every now and 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:05.160 and you know, it made my life a lot more challenging, 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:07.639 but it was there. I could hide it. There is 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.880 ways I could hide it and maneuver it. And I 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.040 think when people talk about eviction, what doesn't often get 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.760 talked about is how much it takes to rebuild a 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.519 life after eviction. It takes a lot to rebuild a life. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.640 It takes a lot to say. I had many things 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:30.680 and now I have nothing, and I have to find 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:37.000 a way to crawl back towards having things again. That 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:38.880 part is hard. That part is a real challenge. 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.320 Welcome to this is uncomfortable. I'm Ri Mares. On today's show, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.400 a wide ranging conversation with Hannef Updoor Keep. Hanef is 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.640 an award winning poet and author, probably from Columbus, Ohio. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.520 He's written six books, several of them best sellers, including 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.080 his latest book, There's Always This Year. In twenty twenty one, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.480 he was named a MacArthur Fellow, which is often called 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.720 the Genius Award. I've spent the last few months reading 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.560 Hanif's work, and so much of it has resonated with me, 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.240 like I found myself underlining nearly every page. He writes 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.440 about things like basketball, music, pop culture, but whatever the topic, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.719 you'll usually find themes around grief, beauty and love, and 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.200 everything is filtered through the lens of his personal life 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.720 and community. On this week's episode, the first of our 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.520 tenth season, I sit down with Hanef to learn more 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.560 about his life. We chat about the moral judgments were 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.240 quick to make about people's financial circumstances, his philosophies around giving, 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.559 and we both get personal about our relationship with home 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.840 and what it means to invest in it. I took 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.479 a lot away from our conversation, and I hope you 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:58.640 all do too. So can you tell me about what 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.560 else was going on in your life around the time 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:01.400 that you got evicted. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:06.640 Yes, So I spent a lot of my early twenties 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.160 and I would say mid twenties in and out of 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.240 Franklin County corrections. I was, you know, in legal trouble 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.359 a lot, usually for theft and things associated with theft. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:23.880 And you know, that was challenging for me because a 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.240 lot of it was just due to needing resources and 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:33.000 needing money, and so my twenties were an infinity loop 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.600 of this kind of struggle. You know. My earliest issues 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.920 stemmed from like stealing things from the house, you know, 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.600 and so there was a way where I kind of 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.400 put myself in a position where my family there was 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.520 like excommunication, but it was for their own protection. You know. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.400 It's kind of like, we just can't have you around it. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.599 This is how you're going to behaving, you know, which, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.880 of course now makes all the sense in the world 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.960 to me. But remember being young, even though I knew 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.760 that my behavior was that my behavior was, you know, 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.799 causing this, And remember being young and feeling like deeply wronged. 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.440 You know, yeah, of course, yeah. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.080 You know, which is ridiculous in hindsight, but you know that's. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.880 That's well at the time, what was the story you 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.320 told yourself about why you were stealing from your family 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:20.400 or wherever else? 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.880 I remember just needing and wanting more things in order 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.240 to feel to kind of keep up with my friends, 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.599 you know, because once I got outside of the realm 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.440 of my neighborhood once, you know, once I was eighteen nineteen, 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.479 these kind of things, and I was outside of the 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.359 realm of the people I grew up around. I was 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.080 spending time with a different class of people who had 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.880 different access to different things, and I didn't want to 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.960 feel left out. You know. All these things feel foolish 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.480 now as a forty year old, sure, but as a 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.479 nineteen year old one, and like feeling like you're on 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.480 the outside of something and wanting to find the quickest 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.640 possible way to get on the inside of something that's 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.440 real that you know, in knowing that I couldn't ask 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.560 my father buy me like a three hundred dollars coat 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.440 or whatever, you know, And so that. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.640 Was you would spend the money on sometimes or on 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.440 like things materialistic stuff. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.600 Oh it always materialistic. Say it's not like I was saving, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.880 you know. It was always like materialistic things and just 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.560 wanting to keep up with with the people around me, 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.560 because honestly, I think I felt left out a lot, 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.240 and that accelerated in my twenties when I came up 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.840 on the punk scene and a lot of my friends. 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:30.360 You know, I lost a lot of friends in my 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.840 early twenties, and you know a lot of them passed away, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.680 and I felt left out and I just wanted to 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.080 kind of embed myself in a world where I mattered 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.880 to some degree. And I think the mistake that I 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.120 fell into was thinking that or you know, mistake, but 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.679 also there was a reality to it, thinking that access 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.600 to materials was the only way that I could embed 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.640 myself in a place in a world that mattered. Yeah. 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.080 Yeah, did it actually lead to any fulfillment? Liked it? 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:00.240 Not? 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:00.480 Really? 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.160 You feel the need that you were craving, Yeah, I. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.040 Think in the immediate short But it also led to 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.920 friendships that were not sustainable. So I still talk to 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.680 those friends now, you know, because when friendships, I think 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.960 are governed by material access, that's just not sustainable. There's 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.840 no emotional connection or attachment. There's no growth or understanding 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.200 around who people are. There's growth and understanding around what 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.520 you have and what you don't have, and so when 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.800 you begin to not have that, you're kind of not 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:37.320 in that orbit anymore. And so yeah, you know, it's 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:43.400 it's it's interesting. It's just a flaw of childhood or 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.160 youthful thinking. You know, I was, I was My approach 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:51.480 was pretty immature at the time, and I think that's 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.959 you know, that's just that's where my head was at. 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:56.719 Yeah, I mean I relate to that. I feel like 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.120 I did stupid stuff in my early twenties too, And 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.200 it's your it's like all in pursuit of just getting 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.800 what you want without thinking of the consequences or the 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.400 potential fallout. You're just trying to get that immediate gratification. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:11.360 Yeah. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.800 Yeah, when did the shift away from that start happening 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.760 for you? And how did it happen? 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:21.480 You know, what happens is that you know you're just 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.320 you're not like a better person, You're just a more 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.319 for me at least you know. I think so much 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.440 of the stuff around this book are people reading it 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.839 and thinking you were bad and now you're good or whatever, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.840 But that's not actually how it works. You become more resourced, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.880 and it puts me in this position where I do 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.960 have to operate against this notion of a bad kid 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.600 made good kind of story that I think people so 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.320 easily and eagerly want to attach to my life because one, 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.160 that binary fails everyone. But two, I don't know that 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.240 I was bad then. I don't know that I'm good now. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.200 I think that I have more access to things now. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.280 I have more access to resources of all across the 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:08.440 entire spectrums now, and that access allows me to live 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.520 a life that is different than the life I lived 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.120 when I did not have that access. And if I 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.199 did not have that access right now, I don't know 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.600 what you know. I don't know what ends I would 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:24.080 go to to acquire that access. Here's the very last 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.240 time I was ever arrested. I was arrested for stealing 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:32.640 deodorant a toothpaste out of a Kroger. Right now, I 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.040 was arrested for stealing Yoda and toothpaste out of a Kroger. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.400 Because I had a job interview the next day, and 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.199 I didn't have the things I needed to take care 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.440 of myself to you know, and now, that arrest for 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.120 most people would be nothing, but because I had an 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.000 extensive record at that point, it became a thing, right. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:55.320 And what I'm saying is that was a theft in 0:10:55.360 --> 0:11:00.760 the pursuit of acquiring necessities that might lead to a 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.800 drastic changing of my life. There is no telling if 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.920 I were unhoused today and I had a potentially life 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.880 changing job interview tomorrow and I didn't have access to 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:13.520 the things I needed to show up to the interview 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.200 as my best self in terms of presentation, I very 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.559 well may go into a store and attempt to walk 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.240 out with those things again today. So and I don't 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.240 think that makes me a bad person or a good person. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.400 I think it makes me a person who is invested 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:32.679 in the best possible survival for myself. And I'm grateful 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.280 to be significantly more resourced now than I was. 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.040 So when did you start to feel more resourced? Like, 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.000 was there a point that you reached where it felt 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.920 like a shift for you? Like I never imagined I 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.880 would make X amount and now I do. And I 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.240 can breathe a little bit easier. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.360 There was never an amount, I think, But I remember 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.480 signing my first book deal with Random House, and I 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.040 don't I just want I don't even remember what it 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.720 was for, like money wise, but I remember thinking, gosh, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.920 this is like a different experience, you know, to get 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.320 this much money at once, you know. And it wasn't huge. 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.800 It wasn't like certainly not a million dollar type thing, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.320 you know, it wasn't anything like that, but I remember 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.040 it was you know, I see it was like two 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.120 hundred thousand or something like that. But I remember I 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.000 signed it and I got fifty thousand. I was signing, 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.839 and I remember thinking, oh wow, this is like all 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.719 in my bank account once. Yeah, you know, like that's 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.320 a lot of money at once in a bank account. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:31.880 And of course, you know, for me, I was like, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.160 all right, well, taxes and you know whatnot whatnot. But 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.719 it was still even with that, it was like, this 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:37.680 is still a lot of money in my bank acount once. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.720 And so yeah. But I mean, you know, throughout my career, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:48.440 I've won things and that, you know. I remember I 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.440 won the US Artist Grant, which was the first thing 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.880 I won that had a substantial financial gain, which is 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.160 also fifty thousand dollars. And that was another thing where 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:56.240 I was like, well, this is a lot of money 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.760 I kount once and and with that fifty thousand dollars, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.560 I gave it all away. 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.360 Except for like five wait, tell me about that. Why 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.360 do you make that decision? 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.440 The USA Artist grant, it's like funded by certain orgs 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.640 in some ways. And so my my grant was funded 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.720 by a Muslim organization and a local mashiait in Ohio 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.400 that I knew, and it spent time in its floor 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:25.360 had collapsed, and I you know, I'm not very religious 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.280 to be you know, I'm Muslim by I guess identify 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.240 as Muslim, but I don't practice in any substantial way. 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.200 But we have a similar relationship. I also grow up Muslim. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.920 Yeah you know, I like do Ramadan, I do I 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.400 fast and all that was yeah, but it was like, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.199 you know, it felt important to me at the time 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:47.680 to be like, you know, this money came from a 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:53.200 Muslim organization, I would like to just relocate it and 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.559 get this community's floor taken care of so that people 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.000 can come and pray in here. Like I'm not going 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:59.760 to go and pray in there probably often at all, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.320 but like people should. And so I redistributed that money 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:08.160 I kept like five thousand, Wow, And then I did similar, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:09.040 you know, I got. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.800 Wait, that's pretty remarkable, though, to get that lump sum 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.640 of money and then decide to give most of it away. 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.600 Was there like a trade off that you were making, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.400 Like if you didn't donate that money, how else would 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:22.920 you have spent it? 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.480 Do you think I didn't have anything in mind at 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:26.960 the time, you know? And that was the thing where 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.160 it was like so much of my decision making around 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:36.360 how I redistribute money and why and to whom and 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.200 all this stuff is just really on some baseline stuff 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.120 where it's like what would I be doing with this 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.160 otherwise when I got The second big thing I got 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.480 was the Landin Foundation fellowship, which I don't remember. I 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.840 think that was one hundred and twenty five thousand, and 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:52.760 I kind of I kept more of that, but I 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.720 broke up a lot of that and like redistributed it 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.760 large chunks of it to local Columbus organizations that I 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.760 believed in. Be QUICK was one of them, Black Queer 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.479 Intersectional Collective, these organizations that are doing on the groundwork 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.440 that are uplifting people at the margins. To me, that 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.480 is more important than like, you know, I don't really 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.080 need another pair of sneakers, you know what I mean? 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.640 Like at this point, I have more more sneakers, and 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.280 then you know, like I have a literal sneaker room 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.880 in my house. So there's things where it's like I 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.560 have a yeah, And I've found out very early on that, 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.680 especially coming out of a situation where I was on house, 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.840 I just I don't really need a lot. The amount 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.920 that I actually require to survive, even to survive well financially, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:44.040 still leaves me with a lot of I towards thinking 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.640 about what my community needs and how I can make 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.440 a more equitable community that I feel proud to love 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.680 and live in, and that everyone has at least the 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.560 opportunity to attempt to feel proud to love and live in. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.560 I think your philosophy is very common, but I think 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.600 for someone to actually act on it is a different thing. 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.360 Because I understand that you have all of your needs fulfilled, 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.720 but there are plenty of people out there who'd use 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.520 that disposable income to travel to Bali or Japan or whever, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.040 or you know, buy a second home and just build well, 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.080 but that doesn't seem that doesn't drive you. 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.280 I'd be at the house. I like being at the house. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.000 I can't. You know. I travel, and I travel substantially 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.440 for work and so and I try to make the 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.760 most of my time when I'm on the road, you know, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.840 and I don't. I don't have a desire for I 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.160 absolutely do not want to be responsible for a second 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:39.880 home or a second you know what I mean, Like 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.160 my my single home causes me. And you know, I 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.200 have I live in like a very I live in 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.600 like one of the last historically black neighborhoods in the city, 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.720 and so the houses are just old, they're just ancient. Yeah, 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.160 and I adore my house, but it's like, you know, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:55.880 it's a house. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:57.000 It's a lot of work. 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:58.640 Yeah, like nineteen oh two, you know. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:00.800 So it's like, yeah, I know, I live in a 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.160 house that's old. It's too much work. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.840 It's too so much work. So like whenever people are like, 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:07.560 you should get like a second home, and like. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.000 Do y'all understand how about retirement? 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.040 Yeah, I mean, I you know, I save for retirement. 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:19.600 I actually recently started saving for retirement after my first MacArthur. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:24.760 Year a chunk of money, right that a war where yeah. 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:26.600 It's and it's like gradual, you get it like through 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.520 five years. But I went to like a financial it's ah, gosh, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.320 I don't know what the total is, but I know 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:37.720 that four times a year I get thirty two thousand, 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.480 five hundred dollars. Wow, So for five years. So whatever 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.000 the math on that is, I think it's like. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:45.080 Okay, a lot of money. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.360 Yeah, But I you know, I started saving for retirement, 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.080 and I don't know anything about the investment space, and 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.160 so much of what I hear and understand about investments 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.040 feels like a little gross to me, and so like 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.240 all I really need is retirement, and you know, I 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.400 still save. It's not like I don't want to paint 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.679 it as though I don't spend money for pleasure. Like 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.919 literally people have to understand like I literally own like 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:09.720 three hundred pairs of sneakers and so you know what 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.520 I mean. Like, but for me it feels important too 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.800 instead of saying like when can I take my next 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.520 vacation or can I invest in crypto or whatever? But 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.879 it's like what are the immediate needs of my community? 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.240 And it's not even entirely selfless, if I can be 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.520 real because I love Columbus and I want to be 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.480 in Columbus for my whole life, right, and so if 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.199 this community is equitable, and if the people who are 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.560 at the margins of this community that I love have 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.320 opportunities to make art and live a little bit more 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.760 free than they are right now and have the ability 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.000 to care for themselves, that makes it a more livable 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.879 city for me too, you know what I mean, Like, 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.200 if I wanted to look at this in a completely 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:55.280 selfish way, that makes it a more exciting, more thrilling, 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.000 more livable city for me, and a city that also 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:02.440 inspires me to create more fully. And so in a way, now, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.280 granted I'm not looking at it like this fully, but 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.679 in a way, I'm just investing in the future of 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.119 a place that I want to be in for a 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.800 long time. I'm just doing it differently than say, the 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.199 powers that be might because the powers that be are like, 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.080 let's build high rise condos that no one can afford. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.399 And that to me is you know, I have to 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.879 operate against that. If I have the means to operate against. 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.919 That, I see, Well, yeah, that's a big theme in 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.600 your writing and your reflections, just your investment in your hometown. 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:34.399 And I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.280 more about your decision to stay in Columbus and how 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.879 it connects to how you define success and what it 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.560 means to quote unquote make it. You write in your 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:50.200 book that oftentimes people equate leaving a hometown leaving where 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.239 you're from as as making it, and you're trying to 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.520 challenge that notion, right. 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.440 Yeah, I suppose. So. You know, it's funny thesision of 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.760 stay in Columbus is really not spectacular. You know, when 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.520 my marriage ended in twenty sixteen, I could have lived anywhere, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.359 but I just wanted to come home. I wanted to 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.760 be in the confines and comforts of this place where 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:18.640 I was. And it's disorienting to go through that magnitude 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:22.320 of a heartbreak at that velocity in that volume, and 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.640 to come home is a way for me, at least 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.760 to return to myself. And so coming back to Columbus 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:30.600 is the only thing that made sense, and staying here 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:35.320 has been the only thing that makes sense. And you know, 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.760 buying my house where I bought my house was very intentional. 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.520 I wanted to live in this neighborhood where black artists 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.159 had created art for a great many years before I 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.639 was even born. You know, the neighborhood I live in 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.479 has a legacy attached to it and a lineage attached 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.280 to it. And so all of these were really distinct 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.080 decisions that I made to build a life that the 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:58.959 kind of life that I thought I could live in 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.080 for a long time. And to me, that felt like 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.160 making it. To have the ability to do that, Yeah, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.720 it felt like making it, and to have the ability 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:10.199 to be settled and comfortable while saying I think I 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.840 am making the right decision here for these specific reasons, 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.520