WEBVTT - Sexual Harassment in Silicon Valley

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<v Speaker 1>There's quite a bit of adult content in today's episode.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're listening with young kids, this might be a

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<v Speaker 1>good one to say for later. In early Kathy Kobrie

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<v Speaker 1>was working at a startup called Cubican in San Francisco.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just Kathy and the founder the Sky Sandy,

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<v Speaker 1>toiling away together for years, and they just raised a

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<v Speaker 1>round of funding. We're really really excited about the future,

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<v Speaker 1>and the founder of the company, Sandy, through a friend,

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<v Speaker 1>said that Mark Cantor was in between projects and that

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<v Speaker 1>he would be available to interview for the position of CEO.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Cancer this is the name will be mentioning a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of times this episode. He founded a software company

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<v Speaker 1>back in the eighties that became known as Macromedia, which

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<v Speaker 1>after he left, went public and was sold to a

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<v Speaker 1>b for three point four billion dollars. Within certain circles

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<v Speaker 1>in tech, he's pretty well known. Kathy and Sandy had

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<v Speaker 1>dinner with Mark to see if they'd want to bring

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<v Speaker 1>him on as CEO. Not long after, the three of

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<v Speaker 1>them were on a conference call and Sandy had to

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<v Speaker 1>drop off the call. The Mark said, Oh, I guess

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<v Speaker 1>you know, because Sandy's on the Phone's just the two

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<v Speaker 1>of us, and I said, you know, okay. He said, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a great opportunity because there's something I want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about privately. And I said, what's

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<v Speaker 1>that and he said, he said, you know, I've been

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<v Speaker 1>looking at the expenses of the company and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>projecting it forward, and he said, I don't see a

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<v Speaker 1>role for you in this company moving forward. He said,

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<v Speaker 1>but but I have an idea. I have an idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Um what we could do is, um we could have

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<v Speaker 1>an arrangement the two of us, and the arrangement was

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna have sex with him and then I would

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<v Speaker 1>be able to keep my job. And then he also

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned that he didn't have this rangement with another company

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<v Speaker 1>that he ran and it worked very nicely. So admitted

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<v Speaker 1>to doing something similar at it with a different woman

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<v Speaker 1>where he had sex with someone, you know, so she

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<v Speaker 1>could stay on the parel. And he was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>thinking maybe this might be a good arrangement. And I

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<v Speaker 1>said that that, you know, under no circumstances was I

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<v Speaker 1>interested or going to take him up on the offer.

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, I'm so offended. I can't even believe

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying this to me. What Kathy didn't know was

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<v Speaker 1>that Mark had a history of harassment allegations dating all

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<v Speaker 1>the way back to his time at the software startup

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<v Speaker 1>that he founded that became Macromedia. He was asked to

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<v Speaker 1>leave the company in the early nineties partly because of

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<v Speaker 1>that behavior, According to a person with knowledge of the matter,

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<v Speaker 1>and a year after the alleged incident with Kathy, another

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<v Speaker 1>woman in the tech industry, says Mark went on to

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<v Speaker 1>proposition her. You'll hear from that woman in a minute. Hi,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Akito and I'm Sarah McBride. And this week on Decrypted,

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<v Speaker 1>we're tackling Silicon Valley's sexual harassment problem. It's a scandal

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<v Speaker 1>that has completely consumed the industry over the last month.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the years, Kathy Kbrey had told some friends and

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<v Speaker 1>her two daughters about Mark Cantor's alleged advances, but that

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<v Speaker 1>interview you just heard with us was the first time

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<v Speaker 1>she spoke publicly about her experience. You'll be hearing from

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<v Speaker 1>other women today too, women who came forward with their

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<v Speaker 1>stories about other men over the last month of various

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<v Speaker 1>news outlets, and one woman who went public years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>These are women who step forward to expose what many

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<v Speaker 1>have called an open secret and text tight knit male

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<v Speaker 1>dominated community. We'll hear what life has been like for

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<v Speaker 1>these women since then and whether they fear the repercussions

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<v Speaker 1>of exposing this darker side of the industry. Will also

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<v Speaker 1>be discussing what can be done to curb what's become

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<v Speaker 1>to feel like an epidemic of abuse of power. So

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<v Speaker 1>let's fast forward to March. A year after Mark cancer

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly proposition Kathy Kobery, Wendy Dent was struggling to raise

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<v Speaker 1>money for her media related startup, an app called Cinemas.

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<v Speaker 1>That's when she realized that someone commented on her Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>post about International Women's Day. He wrote, go girl, So

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<v Speaker 1>you know d R r L. I felt he was

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<v Speaker 1>a role model to me in a sense that he

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<v Speaker 1>was a pioneer of multimedia, which is the space that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm in, and he he was someone that I was

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<v Speaker 1>keen to meet because he's been doing exciting things. The

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<v Speaker 1>man she's talking about is Mark Cantor, the same Mark

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<v Speaker 1>Cantor who we heard about from Kathy Kybery. Wendy and

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<v Speaker 1>Mark started exchanging messages on Facebook and decided to meet

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<v Speaker 1>up in San Francisco at a falafel joint. That's when

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy told Mark about her startup, and you know, he

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<v Speaker 1>listens and said it was a strong idea, and he

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<v Speaker 1>offered to be an advisor, and so I was really

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<v Speaker 1>quite excited. It was a meeting going well. Wendy says.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark offered to advise her on her company and write

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<v Speaker 1>the computer code of her app. And I've been so stuck,

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<v Speaker 1>and I said, you know, that's so so great. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so happy about that because I haven't been able to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, get developers. I haven't been able to get funding.

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<v Speaker 1>It was at that point he said to me, well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone's going to want to get into your candies, and

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get into your candy. And that I

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't forget. I will never forget hearing that and just

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<v Speaker 1>being so stunned. And he said, you know, i'd like

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<v Speaker 1>he said. I remember, he said I want to have

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<v Speaker 1>sex with you. Um it wasn't that I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>even repeat the way he said it, but he said

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<v Speaker 1>to me, I want to have sex with you. And

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<v Speaker 1>he said to me, your problem is you kind of

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<v Speaker 1>have this air about you that you're unfaul this blue

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy away was Mark really suggesting it would help her

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<v Speaker 1>business to sleep around. I throwled off and I was

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<v Speaker 1>just shocked, and I didn't quite no it was to

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<v Speaker 1>make of it, but I wanted to keep the good

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<v Speaker 1>meeting going and I wanted to be that it could

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<v Speaker 1>be just about the tech it it could work, Wendy said.

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<v Speaker 1>She tried to laugh it off, but then she received

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<v Speaker 1>a series of Facebook messages from him. She shared screenshots

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<v Speaker 1>of those messages with us. One said, Wendy, you're a

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<v Speaker 1>sorceress casting a spell on me. Wendy ignored the messages

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<v Speaker 1>and switched over to email, trying to steer the conversation

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<v Speaker 1>back to her company. We reviewed those emails too. Mark replied,

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<v Speaker 1>what's in it for me, and Wendy said, let me

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<v Speaker 1>know your thoughts. Mark replied, yes, we can talk, but

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<v Speaker 1>on the phone and added a smiley face. I felt

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<v Speaker 1>then that he was basically pressuring and he was putting.

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<v Speaker 1>He was putting a kind of set development deal on

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<v Speaker 1>the table with how it felt and um, and I

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<v Speaker 1>I was really on the I didn't want to respond.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know how do. I didn't want to prove

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<v Speaker 1>oky middle with any response. I just wanted a squide

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<v Speaker 1>away and and not have anything more to do with

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<v Speaker 1>him ever again. For some of you, Wendy's tale might

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<v Speaker 1>sound familiar. She went public with part of it to

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<v Speaker 1>Katie Benner of The New York Times, who named not

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<v Speaker 1>just Mark Canter but also other women's stories about two

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<v Speaker 1>very well known investors in the valley, Chris Soccer and

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<v Speaker 1>Dave McClure. Dave is someone we even had on this

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<v Speaker 1>show in the fall. Chris said in a blog post

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<v Speaker 1>that he disputes the account but apologized for playing a

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<v Speaker 1>role in making the industry inhospitable for women, and a

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<v Speaker 1>blog post of his own, Dave wrote, I'm a creep

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<v Speaker 1>and also resigned from the venture fund that he co founded.

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<v Speaker 1>To the New York Times, Mark responded to Wendy's allegations,

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<v Speaker 1>saying that he only said what he said because he

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<v Speaker 1>didn't like her ideas and wanted her to go away.

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<v Speaker 1>In a post on the publishing platform Medium, he said

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted to apologize to Wendy for quote using a

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<v Speaker 1>sexual innuendo to end our relationship. I'm wondering what the

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<v Speaker 1>response has been like for you. Have women been reaching out,

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<v Speaker 1>have men been reaching out? Have your friends been reaching out?

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<v Speaker 1>To you. What's what's been their response? The reactions good

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<v Speaker 1>and bad because um, instantly we had, I think, a

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<v Speaker 1>feeling that we've broken it to do and we could

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this and everyone believed me, no one believed him.

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<v Speaker 1>But at the same time it was horrible for me

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<v Speaker 1>because he then started blaming me for it. He tried

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<v Speaker 1>to justify it by saying my fault for a myriadic

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<v Speaker 1>ridiculous reasons. And I didn't want to get into any

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<v Speaker 1>slinging matches about face and I just wanted up, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>going going out to my bed, combat covers the the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of my life today. Wendy lives in Mexico. After

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<v Speaker 1>that exchange with Mark, as well as a few other

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<v Speaker 1>instances that involved unwanted advances from men in the tech industry,

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<v Speaker 1>she left to look On Valley. She ended up learning

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<v Speaker 1>to code herself, and just recently released cinemas to Apple's

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<v Speaker 1>app store. Wendy worries that coming forward might make it

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<v Speaker 1>harder for her when she's ready to start raising money

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<v Speaker 1>for her company, but at least so far, she says

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<v Speaker 1>she doesn't regret the decision to recap The tech entrepreneur

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Cancer has faced sexual harassment allegations dating back to

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<v Speaker 1>the early nine nineties, when, according to a person familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with the situation, he was asked to lead the software

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<v Speaker 1>company he co founded partly because of that behavior. We

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<v Speaker 1>reached out to Mark for the story, and he said

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<v Speaker 1>no one ever told him he was being fired for harassment,

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<v Speaker 1>and said he was instead fired for smoking pot. We

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<v Speaker 1>also heard from two women who say they were propositioned

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<v Speaker 1>by Mark. For Kathy Kybree, Mark was potentially her incoming bus.

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<v Speaker 1>For Wendy Dent, Mark could have been a mentor. Mark

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<v Speaker 1>said that in conversations with Kathy, he talked about sex,

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<v Speaker 1>and he did talk about his ex girlfriends too, but

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<v Speaker 1>added quote I certainly never said to her you must

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<v Speaker 1>sleep with me or else. As for Wendy, Mark acknowledged

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<v Speaker 1>that he did tell her he wanted to have sex

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<v Speaker 1>with her, but said he only said that to shock her.

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<v Speaker 1>He said, quote, my sarcasm and contrarian logic is a

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<v Speaker 1>key part of my psyche. He also said that he

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<v Speaker 1>was angry that Wendy didn't offer anything in return for

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<v Speaker 1>seeking his help with her company, and said he was

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<v Speaker 1>not expecting sex. Before Wendy's story ran in the New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times, two women came four with their experience involving

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<v Speaker 1>a different man, a venture capitalist called Justin called Back.

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<v Speaker 1>Their story ran on the text site The Information, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's what sparked this most recent outcry over the harassment

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<v Speaker 1>of female start up founders. We thought that this was

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<v Speaker 1>a huge issue, but we couldn't have even imagined just

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<v Speaker 1>how many more women would come and speak up. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Lady Shoe, co founder of the travel startup Journey. Lady

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<v Speaker 1>said she was groped by the venture capitalist Justin called

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<v Speaker 1>Back when she and her co founder Susan Hoe were

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<v Speaker 1>pitching him on their business. She and Susan recently spoke

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<v Speaker 1>to our colleague Emily Chang. This is just stuff that

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<v Speaker 1>happens all the time. I mean to whether it be

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<v Speaker 1>a snide comment or just a hug that's like a

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<v Speaker 1>little too grabby. Yeah. I think the unfortunate thing is

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<v Speaker 1>that when it comes to behavior like this, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>almost at a point where, you know, when when we

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<v Speaker 1>were initially um put in touch with red Albert Gotti,

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<v Speaker 1>who was the porter who wrote the Information article, we

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<v Speaker 1>both looked at each other and we didn't think that

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<v Speaker 1>there was a story there we just said, wow, you

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<v Speaker 1>know why, what what makes up this story so special

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<v Speaker 1>that we feel the need to tell it and share

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<v Speaker 1>this when every other day this happens to women across industries.

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<v Speaker 1>Susan and Lady couldn't have known how much of an

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<v Speaker 1>impact their story would end up making. Justin Caldbeck initially

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<v Speaker 1>denied the allegations, then apologized, and ended up leaving the

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<v Speaker 1>venture capital firm Binary Capital that he co founded. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously all the women who came out in the New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times, and I just think, wow, we are hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>in a world, are starting to become in a world

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<v Speaker 1>where speaking out against sexual harassment does not equate to

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<v Speaker 1>dropping a nuclear bomb on your career. You know, I

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<v Speaker 1>I breathe this. We've had the sigh of relief where, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we made the right decision, made the right decision, We

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<v Speaker 1>made the right choice. As Susan and Lady, as well

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<v Speaker 1>as Wendy and Cathy consider the long term consequences of

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<v Speaker 1>their decision to go public, there are actually very few

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<v Speaker 1>people they could look to for past experience. It was

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<v Speaker 1>almost unheard of to actually attach her name to an

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<v Speaker 1>allegation of harassment in the Insulated world of tech, but

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<v Speaker 1>Geisha Has is one of the few women who did

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<v Speaker 1>live through this. A few years ago, her story ran

0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.320
<v Speaker 1>on the gossip site Valley Wag. It involved receiving an

0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.080
<v Speaker 1>email from an angel investor called Pavel Kurda. He said,

0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 1>I like you a lot. I will not leave Berlin

0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 1>without having sex with you. Deal that was back in

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.840
<v Speaker 1>and the story went viral. The investor, Pavo Kurta, ended

0:14:54.920 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 1>up apologizing in the aftermath. In terms of negative things, um,

0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.040
<v Speaker 1>there got death threats on Twitter where someone would say

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 1>I will cut your throat. You find what probably what

0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>hurt more were when you read through the comments of

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.280
<v Speaker 1>articles and there's this Facebook plug in, and you can

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 1>see that there are people that you have mutual friends

0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.280
<v Speaker 1>with their real humans and them dissing you, them saying

0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.200
<v Speaker 1>like your damn's own distress, You're doing it to advance

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 1>your career, and just constantly constantly attacking you. Um. Then

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.000
<v Speaker 1>someone created a Facebook page that said I want to

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 1>have sex with Keisha Has. They pulled personal images from

0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.520
<v Speaker 1>my Facebook profile and photoshop the guy's face on my

0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:43.239
<v Speaker 1>fiance's face. Were you depressed in the aftermath? Definitely? Yeah?

0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>For how long I'd say maybe two three months. It

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 1>was mainly social anxiety where whenever I would be with

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.720
<v Speaker 1>other people, I could not help but extremely wonder what

0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 1>they were thinking about me, and I myself was extremely

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.760
<v Speaker 1>judging myself about everything. Like suddenly you or new normal

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>is like all these strangers know who I am and

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 1>they either want to kill me hit me. I think

0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm scum or they think I'm a hero. And so

0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.440
<v Speaker 1>that suddenly is your new reality and it takes a

0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.040
<v Speaker 1>little while to like process it in a way that's healthy.

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm balanced, said She's still glad she came forward and

0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 1>that the overwhelming response to her story was positive. Geisha

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 1>also said she didn't let the aftermath and all its

0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 1>distractions stop her from pursuing her mission of helping more

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:39.760
<v Speaker 1>women launch successful ventures through her company called Dreamers and Doers.

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.600
<v Speaker 1>I think one of the things that are associated with

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 1>um successful diversity and inclusion efforts, and I think of

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 1>m combating sexual harassments falling under that umbrella is developing

0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.440
<v Speaker 1>accountability not just for reaching metric, but for people who

0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:06.480
<v Speaker 1>create environments that are run counter to those values. That

0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 1>voice might be familiar to our regular listeners. It's why

0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.840
<v Speaker 1>von Hutchinson, the diversity consultant we spoke to in our

0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:18.040
<v Speaker 1>episode about affirmative action in the startup Penny And when

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.120
<v Speaker 1>why Van talks about accountability, she's talking about imposing real

0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.320
<v Speaker 1>consequences for the people who create these hostile work environments.

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Companies actually have to to make the tough, the tough choices, right.

0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.640
<v Speaker 1>It's easy to sign a pledge, It's harder to establish

0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:39.520
<v Speaker 1>robust accountability measurement mechanisms in your organization. It's harder to

0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.639
<v Speaker 1>engage a third party on Budsman to review your claims

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>of harassment. It's harder to fire that superstar partner. So

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking for companies to make decisions like that. Um,

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.919
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm very happy that the people who are coming

0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:02.800
<v Speaker 1>forward are being believed and and that companies are and

0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.720
<v Speaker 1>and VC firms are taking concrete action. When we saw

0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 1>sort of the downfall what happened with Binary Capital, I

0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.440
<v Speaker 1>think it's sent a real message. It's tempting to say,

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.240
<v Speaker 1>let's just get rid of the handful of bad apples

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:18.880
<v Speaker 1>and everything will be fine. Most men in the tech

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.400
<v Speaker 1>industry don't try to sleep with their employees, their mentees

0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and the founders of the companies they fund. But these

0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.239
<v Speaker 1>kinds of stories we've been talking about today is just

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.560
<v Speaker 1>a very extreme manifestation of a much more subtle and

0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:37.320
<v Speaker 1>pervasive sexism in this male dominated industry. I've had women

0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.760
<v Speaker 1>tell me they will walk into pitch meetings and vcs

0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 1>will ask them, do you want to have kids? Do

0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 1>you want to have more kids? Do you think you

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.879
<v Speaker 1>can hire men? Um Men don't get asked those questions.

0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Men don't get asked if they want to have kids.

0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.120
<v Speaker 1>That's our colleague Emily Chang, who was the one who

0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.920
<v Speaker 1>interviewed Lady in Susan earlier. Emily's also writing a book

0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.320
<v Speaker 1>about women in tech, so she's been doing a ton

0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 1>of reporting on this topic. When you talk about women

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 1>who work at these tech companies, they might be and

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.199
<v Speaker 1>often are the only woman on a team of engineers.

0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.679
<v Speaker 1>All the rest of them are men. And these women

0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 1>are constantly fending off advances and comments of all kinds,

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.000
<v Speaker 1>And they tell me that it's exhausting, Like it's exhausting

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.159
<v Speaker 1>to have to navigate that and negotiate that and preserve

0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.800
<v Speaker 1>the relationship and politely saying exactly, that's hard in any

0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.880
<v Speaker 1>situation to politely say no, but when it's in your

0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.680
<v Speaker 1>work environment and it's happening all day long, all the time.

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.639
<v Speaker 1>You know, it was about a month ago that the

0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.400
<v Speaker 1>story from the information came out, and you know, I'm wondering,

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.040
<v Speaker 1>had you heard of stories like this happening before around

0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 1>sexual harassment? Yes? I guess what I would say is

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.840
<v Speaker 1>every female entrepreneur, every female in tech, it seems to me,

0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.240
<v Speaker 1>has a story at least one story, and some of

0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.920
<v Speaker 1>these women have many stories. And it might be being

0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 1>sexually harassed, someone grabbing your thighs, someone trying to case

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 1>to you, But more often it is uh, something incredibly

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.400
<v Speaker 1>small that you might that might not seem so bad

0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.639
<v Speaker 1>in isolation, but at it all together and it is

0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:17.680
<v Speaker 1>a big deal. That brings us back to Kathy Kobrie

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.480
<v Speaker 1>story from the top of the show. Cathy said she

0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 1>ended up telling the founder, Sandy, who didn't want to

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 1>be interviewed for today's episode, about what Mark Canter said

0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.679
<v Speaker 1>to her, and Mark didn't end up sticking around the

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:34.800
<v Speaker 1>company for long. He said he left Cubican after only

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.280
<v Speaker 1>a matter of weeks, even before ever signing an official

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>employment contract. Kathy ended up leaving Silicon Valley and tech

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.160
<v Speaker 1>all together. Today. She lives in a sleepy town called

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Carmel on the central California coast and works part time

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:57.600
<v Speaker 1>for a nonprofit. This is the first time that you're

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 1>speaking about this on the record. Are you scared? Are

0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:06.879
<v Speaker 1>you are you nervous? What are you worried about? Of

0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 1>course makes a steps. But the reason I'm doing it

0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.080
<v Speaker 1>because I have twin daughters and when it was happening

0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 1>to me, when I hung up the phone, the first

0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 1>thing I thought about is like, you know, this is

0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.320
<v Speaker 1>what my girls are gonna be up again, and it

0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.679
<v Speaker 1>just it breaks my heart. Have you ever told your

0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.199
<v Speaker 1>daughter is about what happened? Oh? Yes, Oh I told him.

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.440
<v Speaker 1>It's embarrassing, you know, because they heard me talk about

0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 1>how excited I was abound him to joining the company,

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:42.760
<v Speaker 1>and then when he was gone, I had to give

0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 1>some explanation and so I told them and they cried.

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.879
<v Speaker 1>And I told my daughter yesterday that I was doing

0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:54.360
<v Speaker 1>this interview today and she cried. What do you think?

0:21:54.359 --> 0:22:01.560
<v Speaker 1>She cried, Cathie m because she knows how humiliated it

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:06.520
<v Speaker 1>made me feel, and she knows how many thousands of

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.119
<v Speaker 1>hours I've worked. But I've been reading these stories about

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:15.159
<v Speaker 1>women who have come forward, and they're definitely in in

0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.000
<v Speaker 1>more of a position. You know, they're actively raising funds

0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:23.200
<v Speaker 1>and they're afraid to be labeled as you know, trouble

0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.280
<v Speaker 1>or you know, I don't want to do business with terror,

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>and I think that they're braver than I am. But

0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm just doing this pretty much for my daughters who

0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:39.439
<v Speaker 1>are coming up into the world and want to be

0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.040
<v Speaker 1>in business and to think that they would have to

0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.040
<v Speaker 1>endure something like this. If I am speaking up in

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 1>some small way makes it better or easier for them,

0:22:52.200 --> 0:23:03.240
<v Speaker 1>I guess it's going to be worth it. And that's

0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.280
<v Speaker 1>it for this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening.

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a story you'd like to share with us?

0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:14.440
<v Speaker 1>You can get in touch at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net,

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 1>or you can find me on Twitter at McBride SG

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.240
<v Speaker 1>and I'm at aki Eto seven. If you haven't already,

0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.920
<v Speaker 1>please subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts,

0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 1>and while you're there, leave us a rating and a review.

0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.000
<v Speaker 1>This goes a long way to get the show in

0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:36.120
<v Speaker 1>front of more listeners. This episode was produced by Pia

0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:41.240
<v Speaker 1>got Cary, Liz Smith, and Madness Henriksen. A special thanks

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:44.320
<v Speaker 1>to Isabel Gottlieb and Nicole Grant, who helped us with

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 1>a ton of research and reporting for today's episode. Be

0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.720
<v Speaker 1>sure to catch Emily Chang, who you also heard from today,

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.400
<v Speaker 1>on Bloomberg Television's Daily techt Show at two pm Pacific

0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.639
<v Speaker 1>five pm Eastern, every weekday. Alec McCabe is head of

0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.400
<v Speaker 1>bloom Podcasts. Because we wanted to get you this episode

0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:06.440
<v Speaker 1>as soon as possible, we'll be taking a break next week.

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:21.520
<v Speaker 1>We'll talk to you soon. M