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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Mass Show.

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Speaker 2: We're always talking about the way the world is changing,

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Speaker 2: of course as we look at it through the lens

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Speaker 2: of politics, finance, and technology, and of course that technology

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Speaker 2: is bitcoin that is changing the world through the decentralized technology.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to bring to you some late breaking news

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Speaker 2: so you can see how the world is changing. And

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Speaker 2: of course of interesting guests. You don't have to just

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Speaker 2: listen to me all the time. And today I have

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Speaker 2: Steven Barber coming onto the show. Always a wealth of

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Speaker 2: information and fun guy to talk to you. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: forward to this. He is the owner of Upstream.

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Speaker 1: Data, Inc.

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Speaker 2: Which is sort of turning trash into treasure, maybe even

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Speaker 2: better than turning track. It's like it's like almost like

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Speaker 2: the ultimate form of recycling waste into treasure.

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Speaker 1: Maybe would you say that, Stephen.

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Speaker 3: It's not a bad analogy. Yeah, we specialize in turning

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Speaker 3: waste gas, wasted methane into bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: But it's not just that, right, So it's like I

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Speaker 2: revised it from turning trash into treasure, but it's actually

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Speaker 2: it's actually better than that, because like trash would just

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Speaker 2: whatever sit there in a landfill, but this methane is

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Speaker 2: just leaking in right right now. The options are we

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Speaker 2: either flare it or vent it into the ecosystem. And

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Speaker 2: so you're taking that and instead of just letting it

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Speaker 2: seep into the ecosystem or burn it off, you're actually

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Speaker 2: using it and turn it into something valuable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, like pretty much every oil gas well or

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Speaker 3: oil well in the world when it's like cracking a

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Speaker 3: can of coke, Like as soon as you release the

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Speaker 3: pressure on that thing, there's like there's gas that comes

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Speaker 3: out of solution. So every oil well out there, pretty

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Speaker 3: much conventional at least, has that gas that comes with it.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, the problem of course being if you're

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Speaker 3: stranded energy, you know, like remote oil wells out in

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Speaker 3: the middle of nowhere, and you don't have pipeline infrastructure

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Speaker 3: to sell the gas, then you have to do something

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Speaker 3: with it. So in a lot of cases, that's too

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Speaker 3: much gas to do anything with, and so we build

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Speaker 3: products that people can buy and it turns that gas

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Speaker 3: into bitcoin. It's basically it's natural gas engines fully like

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Speaker 3: a fully kitted out skid where the fuel gas plumbs

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Speaker 3: in through the engine, generates power, sends electricity to the

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Speaker 3: mining side, which is what we call the load center,

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Speaker 3: and that turns it into hashes, and of course those

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Speaker 3: hashes reward you in bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: Now, I know in Canada and the United States, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of regulations around, you know, for these energy

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Speaker 2: companies of how much gas they can in some instances

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Speaker 2: even how much gas they can flare or event into

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Speaker 2: the ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of.

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Speaker 2: Like what you're talking about, where they're forced to do

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Speaker 2: something with it. And if they're stranded, if they're so

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Speaker 2: far from a pipeline, then they don't really have a

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Speaker 2: good option, right they could either shutter it in or

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Speaker 2: use an option like this. I mean, is that sort

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Speaker 2: of how the regulations work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Basically, you're there's a couple of ways you can

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Speaker 3: control your gas flow, so you can rate limit you're well,

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Speaker 3: So like most most people when they drill a well,

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Speaker 3: they want to produce it at max potential rates because

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Speaker 3: that's what they're that's where they're making money. It's selling

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Speaker 3: it well. But the more you produce, like the more

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Speaker 3: you pump the oil to surface, the more gas that

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Speaker 3: comes with it. So a lot of the regulations will

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Speaker 3: force the oil company, you know, they might be allowed

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Speaker 3: to vent or flare up to a certain limit, but

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Speaker 3: to stay within that limit, they might have to throttle

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Speaker 3: their downhole pumps and throttle a well, depending what what

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Speaker 3: the completion looks like in some jurisdictions, like I think

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Speaker 3: New Mexico right now, I'm not sure so sure about California,

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Speaker 3: for example, where where you're sitting. But certain states have

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Speaker 3: different rags and some of the REGs are no flaring whatsoever,

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Speaker 3: so you're not you're basically not going to get a permit,

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Speaker 3: or if you do get a permit for routine flaring,

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Speaker 3: it only be temporary. So that's where they're forced to

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Speaker 3: well either not develop the property or if they do

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Speaker 3: develop the property, they have to you know, pay a

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Speaker 3: lot of money out to get pipelines, in which case

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Speaker 3: might be very far from the market, so you spend

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Speaker 3: a lot of money at pipelines.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask another question that I think it

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Speaker 2: can be more fun and interesting for the listeners. So

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of attacks on bitcoin, fudd

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Speaker 2: if we will you know, if you're uncertainty to out

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Speaker 2: a lot of attacks on bitcoin, specifically around the amount

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Speaker 2: of energy it uses. A lot of the counter to this,

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Speaker 2: you know, from bitcoin minors, let's say, but also some

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Speaker 2: political organizations around bitcoin mining as well push back and

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Speaker 2: they try to say how clean bitcoin is and how

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Speaker 2: much renewable energy it uses, and how it's helping to

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Speaker 2: actually cut down on CO two and things like that.

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Speaker 2: I've considered, I've been asked to join some of these

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Speaker 2: political organizations, and I'm like, the problem I have is

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Speaker 2: I sort of reject that entire premise, right, I sort

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Speaker 2: of reject that entire premise. I don't think we need

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Speaker 2: to be arguing that bitcoin isn't a waste of energy.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we need to be arguing that it

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Speaker 2: cuts down CO two missions because I don't even think

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Speaker 2: that's the problem in the first place. And I'm curious

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Speaker 2: your take on that.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's been over the years since I got

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Speaker 3: into the space in like twenty sixteen, that's been one

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Speaker 3: of the most common FUD vectors. You know, the most

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Speaker 3: common social attacks on bitcoin is that it's is it

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Speaker 3: a good use of energy? Just because obviously the trend

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Speaker 3: and hash rate and the underlying power usage that goes

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Speaker 3: under that hash rate is up and up and up

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Speaker 3: like exponentially, and of course one day it'll plateau somewhere,

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Speaker 3: but it is going to very high places, like it's

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Speaker 3: going to be a lot of load on energy systems

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Speaker 3: across the globe. I've always just started with when people

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Speaker 3: have brought that up to me, well, bitcoin's a waste

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Speaker 3: of energy for that person, it might be a waste

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Speaker 3: of energy. Like if they don't use bitcoin, then sure,

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Speaker 3: like you don't, you'd have no you'd take no value

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Speaker 3: from it. Sure, that's your That is the root of

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Speaker 3: what value is. It's always a subjective thing. I always

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Speaker 3: just use the same example, like I don't personally like

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Speaker 3: certain vegetables like cauliflower, but I don't go around saying

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Speaker 3: saying that it's a waste of energy just because I

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Speaker 3: don't eat it. I don't eat it. There's a whole

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Speaker 3: industry around growing cauliflower. I'm sure it's quite a lot

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Speaker 3: of energy actually that goes into it, right, So you

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Speaker 3: know that to me is fundamentally where the argument ends.

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Speaker 3: Is for a lot of people, bitcoin can be a

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Speaker 3: waste of energy in their subjective view, and that's just fine.

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Speaker 3: But there's a lot of people paying for it, including

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Speaker 3: both of us and many of your listeners. And to

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Speaker 3: us bitcoin is useful and therefore it has value. That's

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Speaker 3: just really where it ends. But if you want to

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Speaker 3: like dig in further, I mean, if you look at

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Speaker 3: where bitcoin mining is applied, it's often applied at sources

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Speaker 3: of energy that can't find a market anyway. I mean

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Speaker 3: that's because that's the way it's trending. That's you know

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Speaker 3: why I call my company upstream Data. We're going upstream

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Speaker 3: in the energy system, and that's more or less where

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Speaker 3: you get the cheapest energy because it's the most wasted energy.

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Speaker 3: We specialize in that in the natural gass side, but

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Speaker 3: our customers use our packages.

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Speaker 1: Everywhere.

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Speaker 3: We have people on solar wind where they curtail it.

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Speaker 2: So if you think about waste the way I've thought

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Speaker 2: about it is like to your point, like you don't

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Speaker 2: like cauliflower, what a waste to make cauliflower?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: I see some guy meditating for you know, thirty minutes

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Speaker 2: a day. What a waste of your time to sit

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Speaker 2: there and just stare into space. But for him that

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Speaker 2: holds his whole routine together, for example, Right, So it's like,

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Speaker 2: who's to say what's a waste?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: But what would be a waste.

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Speaker 2: I think is sort of maybe we could agree on

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Speaker 2: is like if I had a bunch of steak that

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Speaker 2: I just cooked up and then nobody ate it and

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Speaker 2: I had to throw it away, Well maybe I kind

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Speaker 2: of wasted that steak, if you will, right. So from

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Speaker 2: that perspective, then when they say that like bitcoin is

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Speaker 2: a waste of energy, well that's actually not true because

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Speaker 2: mostly what I think you're framing up and what I

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Speaker 2: see is that bitcoin is actually using wasted energy.

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Speaker 1: In a sense, we've already created the energy.

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Speaker 2: The energy is already there, and if we don't use it,

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Speaker 2: the energy goes away. That's the steak. We might as

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Speaker 2: well just eat the steak, right, We might as well

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Speaker 2: just use the energy is there. So it's not really

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Speaker 2: waste energy. It's actually using wasted energy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it it enhances the efficiency the power

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Speaker 3: generation system. So if it's wind power, most people don't

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Speaker 3: argue that wind power is bad for the environment. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's definitely a nuance to that topic, but most people

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Speaker 3: agree that it's it's a good thing. And so bitcoin

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Speaker 3: mining going upstream to wind firms and taking all the

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Speaker 3: surplus power that the wind firm cannot ship because the

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Speaker 3: demand isn't there when it's being generated, which of course

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Speaker 3: is the main problem with sources of energy like wind.

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Speaker 3: That's great, I mean otherwise it's just getting curtailed like

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Speaker 3: it's not being generated. They you know, the blades get

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Speaker 3: in set, so they don't, they don't. There's no load

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Speaker 3: on the system, and so bitcoin generates a load on

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Speaker 3: on these. You could basically pick any source of power whatsoever,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a thermal power plant being like coal, natural gas, nuclear,

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Speaker 3: for example. Bitcoin makes them all more efficient. They makes

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Speaker 3: them all more energy efficient because it's effectively just a

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Speaker 3: buyer blast resort. And every single kind of power plant

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Speaker 3: will have periods where it needs this buyer blast resort

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Speaker 3: because even like a coal plant.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna I got to cut you off before you

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Speaker 2: give me that example, because I got to run into

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Speaker 2: a break. If you're just tuning into the Markmas Show,

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Speaker 2: sitting down, Stephen Barber from Upsteam Data Inc. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back with more in a minute. I got to take

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Speaker 2: a very quick break. Don't go away your back all right,

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Speaker 2: welcome back. If you're just tuning in you're listening to

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Speaker 2: the Mark Mos Show, Sitting down. Stephen Barber from Upstream Data, Inc.

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Speaker 2: And we're talking about upstream data. We're talking about using

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Speaker 2: wasted energy and how we can turn that.

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Speaker 1: I cut you off before the break.

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Speaker 2: If you want to go ahead and just kind of

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Speaker 2: finish what you're saying, you're gonna be an example.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just an example of like even like a thermal

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Speaker 3: power plant, like they operate at most most peak efficiency,

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Speaker 3: like the best heat rates when they're at you know,

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Speaker 3: nominal load. And one problem you see today is when

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Speaker 3: you have all this other load or or this other

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Speaker 3: generation come out on the grid, like wind and solar

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Speaker 3: that can offset what's coming from these reliable base loads.

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Speaker 3: And so if they operate at a lower lower than

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Speaker 3: nominal capacity than they're designed for, they actually burn energy

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Speaker 3: less efficiently, especially coal plants for example, Like they'll burn

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Speaker 3: coal at a worse heat rate than they would otherwise.

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Speaker 3: So having just always having things at nominal optimal generation

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Speaker 3: is a net benefit. And it just goes back to

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Speaker 3: the point you said earlier, like any the stakes are

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Speaker 3: getting thrown out, we need to stop throwing out the

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Speaker 3: stakes and start frying them up. And that's what bigcoined

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Speaker 3: out exactly.

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Speaker 2: Now, once you mine it, let's let's let's kind of

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Speaker 2: move up this a little bit. So once you mine it,

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Speaker 2: most of these miners now mine inside of a pool,

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Speaker 2: so they pool their resources together to try to earn

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Speaker 2: more rewards that way. I know you've been throwing out

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Speaker 2: some tweets lately kind of talking about some of these

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Speaker 2: pools and being are they custodial pools?

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Speaker 1: Are they non custodial pools?

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Speaker 3: Mean?

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Speaker 1: Do they hold your bitcoin? Do they ky see you?

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Speaker 2: Do? They have to know your customers, They have to

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Speaker 2: collect all the data on you before they'll pay you

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Speaker 2: out to the bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious your take on that.

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Speaker 2: And then we can talk about a new mining pool

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Speaker 2: potentially that was trying to fix that and it's sort

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Speaker 2: of gone.

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Speaker 1: Off the rails a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But what's your take sort of on the way this

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Speaker 2: this mining mining pools potentially, like I said it, with

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Speaker 2: some censorship ky C in there, how that's starting to develop?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the general trend over the last number

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Speaker 3: of years is mining pools have and they will continue

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Speaker 3: to be get under more scrutiny from different regulators. I

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Speaker 3: guess it's hard to pin them down on what they're

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Speaker 3: you know, they're not so much like a financial services

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Speaker 3: in a way, they're more of a server providing you know,

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Speaker 3: a place to pool compuation. So it's but they also

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Speaker 3: end up pools generally custody bitcoin, So that's one one

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Speaker 3: thing that's that's a concern, Like most pools do, and

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Speaker 3: the reason they do it is because there's an it

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Speaker 3: allows for much more efficient payouts. Like to put it

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Speaker 3: in a nutshell, you think, pay more people out in

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Speaker 3: a more efficient manner, unlike an exchange which might be

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Speaker 3: acting as a custodian for other reasons. That's one thing pools. Uh,

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Speaker 3: there's there's been pressure, like some pools are preemptively gone

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Speaker 3: forward with oh fact compliance right for example, so basically

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Speaker 3: just blacklisting or providing not including certain utxos and transactions

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Speaker 3: in their blocks and effectively censoring bitcoin because of pressure

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Speaker 3: from regulators. So like most of the pools that I've

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Speaker 3: done this, like Marathon, Marathon's pooled this for a period

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Speaker 3: f two pool reason most recently. And the funny thing

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Speaker 3: is they did it preemptively because they they're sort of

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Speaker 3: almost what I say is like they they're they're positioning

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Speaker 3: for regulatory capture, which is probably inevitable. I think it

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Speaker 3: is inevitable that pools, mining pools at least like within

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Speaker 3: the threshold will be licensed. That's like likely they're going

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Speaker 3: to be the trend. It's just why you in.

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Speaker 2: Like the developed world, like in the US or Europe

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Speaker 2: for example, then you're saying to start a mining pool,

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Speaker 2: then you would need some You're you're thinking your your

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Speaker 2: prediction would be that they would be required to have

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Speaker 2: some sort of a license by the government of a pool.

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Speaker 3: I expect eventually that's likely what's going to happen. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean it it just generally, I mean that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing, and it might be very it might be

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Speaker 3: sort of like tiered where if you're just like small

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Speaker 3: or something, you know, you might not have to it

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Speaker 3: might be a very lightweight thing, but you might have

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Speaker 3: to register. There's all kinds of things, I mean, just

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Speaker 3: because of the nature when you like sort of zoom

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Speaker 3: out the nature what bitcoin is. It's a competitor to FIAT,

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Speaker 3: it's a competitor to central banking really in my view,

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Speaker 3: so I think it's pretty much inevitable that they're going

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Speaker 3: to push it's the easiest way to call it socially,

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Speaker 3: attack bitcoin or attack bitcoin if you want to put

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Speaker 3: it in that kind of you know, frame of view

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Speaker 3: is to put in do it through regulation, licensing, permitting, yeah, axing.

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Speaker 2: And obviously they could set up these pools from anywhere though,

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Speaker 2: right So, I mean they can easily set up because

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Speaker 2: it's just a place where it concentrates these computers, this

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Speaker 2: computer power, this hash.

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Speaker 1: Power, if you will.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean there's no reason why they couldn't just

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Speaker 2: go set up the pool in El Salvador or Argentina

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Speaker 2: now or something.

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Speaker 3: Oh of course, yeah, you can set the pool up

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Speaker 3: in a jurisdiction. Of course, the regulators might just say, well,

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Speaker 3: you're serving an American client, right, so that's a problem,

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Speaker 3: and that's what they do in America. If you serve ers,

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Speaker 3: and even if you're abroad, that can be a problem.

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Speaker 3: I think that was like you know, bitmax had to

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Speaker 3: deal with that. But the thing about pools, you remember,

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Speaker 3: and it's the beautiful thing about bitcoin, right, like a

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Speaker 3: public pool where you're opened into everyone. That's pretty much.

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Speaker 3: I find it hard hard to believe that they're going

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Speaker 3: to be able to find a way to be publicly

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Speaker 3: available and somehow circumvent any regulation that might come because

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Speaker 3: by nature being publicly available, and the tools they have

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Speaker 3: at their disposal to identify the operators. You're likely just

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Speaker 3: going to have to comply with whatever regulations come. And

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Speaker 3: it's not that that in itself is a negative. It's

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Speaker 3: more so just you know, the regulators are going to

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Speaker 3: sort of create a white market for bitcoin mining pools.

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Speaker 3: But you can also run pools like bear in Mind

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Speaker 3: mining solo. You can still run a private pool. And

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Speaker 3: that's one prediction I've made is I think we're going

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Speaker 3: to see more were like you.

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Speaker 2: And I, Hey, Steven, Like, let's just set up a

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Speaker 2: little pool between ourselves kind of thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like I actually one day part of my part of

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Speaker 3: my software which I won't bore you guys with today,

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Speaker 3: but like part of my development plan with my business

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Speaker 3: is it's leading to a point where I could offer

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Speaker 3: a private pool because I build infrastructure for people. The

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Speaker 3: thing about and this is probably too deep for this

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Speaker 3: podcast right now, there is a lot of problems with

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Speaker 3: opening a pool up to the public because you can

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Speaker 3: get it's called block withheld, you can be attacked by

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Speaker 3: your own customers, and also like you can actually pay

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Speaker 3: them to attack you if you're not And there's really

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Speaker 3: no way around preventing that from happening outside of having

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Speaker 3: software having full control of the mining stack that's on

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Speaker 3: your pool. So I think as bitcoin develops towards more

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Speaker 3: adversarial conditions, it becomes bigger globally, it's more competition, and

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Speaker 3: you might have even like state attacks against it, or

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Speaker 3: if that doesn't happen and you have like just just

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Speaker 3: aggressive pools against each other, I think we're going to

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Speaker 3: see development towards private pools. So that's like I'm running

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Speaker 3: a pool, but I'm not letting you in without me

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Speaker 3: like having some kind of contract access to your front.

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Speaker 2: Do you think those those smaller mining pools, though, can

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Speaker 2: be competitive and still provide economic you know, advantage, or

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Speaker 2: at least be competitive in that sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think pools can be competitive. It is

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Speaker 3: a tough business, like if you're purely a pool and

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Speaker 3: you're not doing if you look at most pools today,

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Speaker 3: like I'll just use brains Pool, slush pool, it's the

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Speaker 3: oldest pool, you know. They they offer not just mining

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Speaker 3: pool as a service, they offer like firmware, and they

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Speaker 3: drive their pool through firmware sales, effectively like installing their

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Speaker 3: firmware drives into their pool. So like pools have generated.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's hold that difficult to take a very quick break.

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Speaker 2: If you're just tuning in listening to the Mark Mass

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Speaker 2: Show sitting down with Stephen Barber, we're talking about sort

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Speaker 2: of the intricacies of bitcoin and bitcoin mining. It's important

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Speaker 2: stuff we're gonna dig into a little bit more a minute.

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Speaker 1: I gonna take a very quick break, though, don't go away.

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Speaker 1: Bear back, all right, welcome back.

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Speaker 2: If you're just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark

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Speaker 2: Mass Show sitting down with Stephen Barber. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: bitcoin using wasted energy, the attack vectors on bitcoin, and

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Speaker 2: we're talking about specifically the mining pools and some of

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Speaker 2: the attack vectors there. So you're gonna say that maybe

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Speaker 2: some of these attack vectors could be solved by setting

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Speaker 2: up like private mining pools, where a group of people

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Speaker 2: known people to each other could set up their own pool.

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Speaker 2: And I think you were going to say, could it

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Speaker 2: be economically competitive with larger public pools.

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Speaker 3: Well, the cheapest way of mind is actually solo mining.

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Speaker 3: It's cheap in the sense you don't pay any fees,

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Speaker 3: You just pay the cost to run a note and stuff.

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Speaker 3: Why it's expensive is because you don't get your payments regularly,

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Speaker 3: so the cost of capital is quite expensive. You might

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Speaker 3: mine for months if you're small and not get your paid.

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Speaker 3: Cost on your money is quite significant, and so like

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Speaker 3: there's almost a trade off. Like solo mining, it is

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Speaker 3: actually long term cheapest. It's just most people can't afford

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Speaker 3: to wait for the block. And I'm not so much

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Speaker 3: saying that, I think that I think we're going to

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Speaker 3: see it a bigger trend towards private pools, mainly because

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Speaker 3: I think as a network gets bigger, a private pool

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Speaker 3: can operate cheaper than a public pool because it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have to worry about the risk of block withholding attacks.

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Speaker 3: That's or it doesn't have to price in the risk

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Speaker 3: of block withholding attacks because presumably a private pool has

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Speaker 3: control or somewhat control over the mining hardware that's connected

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Speaker 3: to it, and that's like maybe a deep to get

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Speaker 3: into technically. But that's one reason why I think we

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Speaker 3: will see more private pools.

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Speaker 2: Well, the reason why, I mean it is pretty deep

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Speaker 2: and probably more technical than I want to get into

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Speaker 2: for most people listening, but I'm just the reason why

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Speaker 2: I'm interested in it is because what we're seeing right

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Speaker 2: now is sort of it depends on where you're at

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Speaker 2: in the world, but even in the United States, the

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Speaker 2: Land of the Free, we're having a very very adversarial

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Speaker 2: take starting to happen in the United States with Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: Warren sort of running this war path on, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically creating rules around bitcoin and cryptocurrency that could effectively

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Speaker 2: make it almost impossible to run, you know, putting keyc

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Speaker 2: rules into all these different places that it just doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: And so on one hand you have that, on the

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Speaker 2: other hand, you sort of have all these ETFs that

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Speaker 2: are about to pop up, so you know, could happen

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Speaker 2: any day, could happen before this is even aired. At

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Speaker 2: this point, it looks like it's happening that quickly. We've

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Speaker 2: seen the SEC has shifted and made all of these

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Speaker 2: funds now go from physically settled to now cash settled.

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Speaker 2: So now the funds aren't even buying and selling bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: they're just doing all the cash. So we're basically just

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Speaker 2: betting on the price of bitcoin, we're not even buying

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Speaker 2: and selling it. And then we have Elizabeth Warren over

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Speaker 2: here saying like all self custody and transactions on your

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Speaker 2: own could be deemed illegal. And if you put those

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Speaker 2: two together, then it sort of looks like when they're

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Speaker 2: starting to like, well you can own it, but only

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Speaker 2: you can own it through a fund which doesn't actually

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Speaker 2: own it, but you can't own it on your own.

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Speaker 1: It looks like there's.

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Speaker 2: Like this attack vector that's just like pushing us into

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Speaker 2: this path. Then you add on what you're talking about

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Speaker 2: as far as then the mining pools are even regulated,

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Speaker 2: so you can't even mining get it that way. So

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Speaker 2: now you can't get it through mining, you can't custy

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Speaker 2: it yourself, and you can only own it through an

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Speaker 2: ETF that doesn't even actually own it. It looks like

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Speaker 2: that's sort of where we're going. Would you say those

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Speaker 2: are attack vectors that you're looking.

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Speaker 3: At, Yeah, I would, I would. I would say that

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Speaker 3: the who I call the evil fiat maximilists or that

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Speaker 3: is exactly what they want. That's what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 3: It just remains to be seen if there's enough of

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Speaker 3: a private interest. You know, the US is the one

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00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 3: place that I would hope would push back on regulation,

437
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 3: and luckily we do have several you know, good lobby

438
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: groups helping push back and then there's good states where

439
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 3: they've really ablished like they're open for business and bitcoin mining,

440
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 3: obviously a few of them being like Wyoming and Texas

441
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 3: and the like. But yeah, I think I think that

442
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 3: is actually the biggest risk to what we're going to see,

443
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 3: just like as people in the bitcomining ecosystem is, is

444
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 3: them coming harder towards pools. The way it's trending is

445
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 3: more regulation. But I think it should be expected because

446
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 3: the government, whether you're federal or state level, they tend to,

447
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 3: you know, at some point when when there's new businesses,

448
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 3: new ventures, new innovation being happening and developing, it's only

449
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 3: usually a matter of time before they get involved with

450
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: regulation on that, with permitting on that, and you know,

451
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 3: they that's what they're in business for. They need to

452
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 3: get their cut. So it's it's not surprising to me,

453
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 3: but I do like what I see, even with the

454
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 3: some new initiatives in the in the like the pool,

455
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 3: the pool ecosystem has been pready dead for several years.

456
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 3: So like a few new pools came up, like Ocean

457
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 3: Demand Pool, and I think they're trying to solve a

458
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: very real problem, and so it's good to see more

459
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:16,479
Speaker 3: options out there, but I would expect regulation is just

460
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: something we're all going to have to you know, expect

461
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 3: and work through. The really thing that bugs me is

462
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 3: that the big pools, and it's not I'm not really

463
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 3: here to name names, but the big ones, like the

464
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 3: two biggest ones, are foundering in a pool. It's in

465
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 3: their best interest, just like just like it is for

466
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 3: coinbase to build for regulations to come in, because they're

467
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: they're the most well equipped to navigate regulation. It's just

468
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 3: the nature of big business versus small business, and big

469
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 3: businesses generally want regulation because they build regulatory motes. They

470
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 3: might say they don't, but that's the fact, like they want.

471
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 3: You generally see big businesses lobby for specific regulations that

472
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 3: they can navigate. They can keep the massive amount of

473
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 3: overhead on staff to keep on you know, in line,

474
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 3: whereas like the newcomers, especially as that regulation gets set

475
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 3: up and those moats are built. And that's usually what

476
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: I'm whining about on Twitter is like, you know, generally speaking,

477
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 3: is these people have like it's almost like a incentive

478
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: to usher in the REGs because they can keep their

479
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 3: competition at bay because they're going to be the best

480
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: equipped and.

481
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, we see that all the time.

482
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 2: And that's the corporatism, if you will, corporatocracy of the

483
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: world right where these big businesses use use the regulatory

484
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: system to build these moats. I mean we've seen it

485
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: time and time again. I mean, Amazon's a perfect example

486
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: of how they've done this. I remember why, I used

487
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 2: to sell internet products a long time ago, and they

488
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: pioneered a bill because at the time, in the United States,

489
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: you could buy stuff on the Internet and not pay

490
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: sales tax. And Amazon pushed a bill that would require

491
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: all these internet sellers to actually have to collect sales tax.

492
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: And of course, you know you had to dig to

493
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: find out Amazon who was pushing this?

494
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: But why would they do that?

495
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 2: Well, to your point, for Amazon, how big they are

496
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: and how much staff they have, they could figure out.

497
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: And in the United States, tax selles tax collected on

498
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: a county by county basis not even a state by state,

499
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 2: So it's like, how many thousands of counties? How am

500
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: I supposed to keep track of that? I can't, But

501
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: they have the bureaucracy, they have the manpower to do that,

502
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: and so since I can't do it, they can. Well,

503
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: I'll just have Amazon sell my products for me. I'll

504
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: just list everything onto Amazon, let them take a cut

505
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: of everything I do, and then they'll take care of

506
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 2: the sales tax for me.

507
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great business, Like sell the solution to the problem.

508
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 3: You you help me.

509
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.

510
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: So you know, and what we just saw, I don't

511
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: know if you saw it. Well, I'm sure you've been

512
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: seeing what Meal is doing down in Argentina. I mean

513
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: he just went and cut like three hundred and eighty

514
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 2: regulations and yeah, and I watched his talk this morning.

515
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: It was in Spanish, but I read the transcription and

516
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: he called this out exactly. He said, you know, like

517
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: in Argentina, we're not even free. We have to be

518
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: given permission for everything. And so he's just like that out,

519
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: which you know, I guess we'll see in real time,

520
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: I believe, I'm sure you would agree. Well, hopefully unleash

521
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: you know, this economy, this h this creativity.

522
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it'll be a big miracle.

523
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the nature he's doing. What you know, I

524
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 3: hope to see broadly, I mean the nature of bureaucracy

525
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: just gets worse and worse and more entangled over time,

526
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: and usually people have no incentive to come in and

527
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 3: remove the bureaucracy, to remove the rags. So you need

528
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: people like him to sort of, I guess, rise up

529
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: popularly with the hatchet and chopp things down. Chop down

530
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 3: the yeah, chop down the forest and allow people that.

531
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: I mean he literally ran on his campaign.

532
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: He was running around with a chainsaw and like, hey,

533
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: I'm taking a chainsaw and he did.

534
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: I mean so far.

535
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: Donald Trump ran on a campaign of I believe he

536
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: promised to get rid of I think or three regulations

537
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: for every new one he put in place, and I

538
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 2: think it ended up being more than that, like five

539
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: regulations for every new one.

540
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: That's pretty good.

541
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: I mean, he at least made a dent. Mealey is

542
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: like holding my beer. Here's three hundred and eighty, like

543
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: just gone right, Like it'd be pretty interesting if you're

544
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show.

545
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 2: I'm sitting down with Stephen Barber from Upstream Data, Inc.

546
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: It's helping people turn trash into treasure with bitcoin mining.

547
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: I want to come back. I want to ask you.

548
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: About ordinals and inscriptions and things like that, but you're

549
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 2: gonna take a very quick break. If you're just tuning in,

550
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: you don't want to miss this. This is probably the

551
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: most debated topic maybe in the space.

552
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more in that in a minute.

553
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: Don't go away, all right, welcome back.

554
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: If you're just tune in, you're listening to the Mark

555
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: Moss Show, sitting down with Stephen Barber from Upstream Data Inc.

556
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: Now, Stephen, we're.

557
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: Talking a lot about the mining and we talked about

558
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: the pools. I want to talk about this next piece,

559
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: and this is the ordinals and inscriptions. Just like anything,

560
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: there's pros and cons to everything, So I guess it

561
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: depends on which side and pros and cons that you're on.

562
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: On the pro side, it's generated a lot more fees

563
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: for the miners, so I'm guessing the miners are probably

564
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: liking that. The con side, people aren't happy that it's

565
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: increased their transaction costs, even though considered, you know, comparatively,

566
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: it's still pretty reasonable. And then so there's that, there's

567
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: the pros and cons there. Then you have sort of

568
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: some of these bitcoin maximalists who think it's a misuse,

569
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: it's a waste, if we want to frame it that way.

570
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: It's a waste of the network using it this way.

571
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: Where do you how do you view this?

572
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: How are you sort of breaking down dissecting this topic.

573
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to I'd like to think I would

574
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: balance you because I've always liked the framing that you know,

575
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 3: Bitcoin you sort of have like on one hand, like

576
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: merchants like people, me and you, all of us transacting

577
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: with each other using the network. You also have miners,

578
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: which are basically providing the underlying service, and there's overlap,

579
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: but like when you think about them in two discrete

580
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: like buckets of network participants, Well, miners like the people

581
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 3: I sell to, they love ordinals. They don't know or

582
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: care whether it is or they might know, but they

583
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 3: in the end, if we don't care, it's more fees,

584
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: it's more revenue, So of course we love it. So

585
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: I'm sympathetic to that because it's it's increasing our sales,

586
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: it's increasing our revenue. But I'm also a user, so

587
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: like I don't like paying high fees. And my personal opinion,

588
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: like on NFTs and inscribing JPEG's in the blockchain, is

589
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: I don't really see the market for it other than

590
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: people speculating and gambling. So in one hand, you can

591
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: lump me in the Bitcoin maxi group. That's really you

592
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 3: could say against them. But meanwhile, I was one of

593
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: the first people inscribing on ordinals. I have an ordinal

594
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: like from way back because the way I my my

595
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: take on it is if you're node, if you're running

596
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: bitcoin core, which is the reference protocol, and it accepts

597
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: a transaction, and that transaction is valid, and I really

598
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: don't care what you use it for. It's not my business.

599
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: You don't care if somebody were transaction fee, right, I mean,

600
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: who's to say what a waste is?

601
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 3: Yeah? If and and honestly, if you're interested in just

602
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: putting you know, the cliche monkeys on the blockchain all

603
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: day and you're paying for that, like I don't really care.

604
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 3: I mean, that's we already have a spam throttle with

605
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: block size. Uh, that's why there is a block size,

606
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: and so people can't just spam infinite JPEGs. There's a

607
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 3: limitation on it. And as long as I really like

608
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: my no doesn't know what these things are. You have

609
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: to interpret the transaction data just to know that it's JPEGs.

610
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: Of course, like there's there's signals and flags.

611
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: But don't you think though that maybe one?

612
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: So I mean to your point, like, if who's to

613
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: say I'm wasting energy, who's to say I'm wasting block size?

614
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: Like who's to say what a waste is to me?

615
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: But don't you think? I mean? And certainly we saw

616
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: when these first started.

617
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: That it was a bunch of really really horrible JPEGs

618
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: if you will, the monkey.

619
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: JPEGs they were.

620
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: They were the worst jpeg not even the good ones

621
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: that we saw, like of the whatever they were, I

622
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: forget the big ones, the apes or whatever from a

623
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: couple of years ago. These were like the peppies, these

624
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: were like really bad ones. But I feel like from

625
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: an economic standpoint, incentive standpoint, like from a you know,

626
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: from a competitive standpoint, like it seemed like that was

627
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: just kind of being done to sort of prove the case.

628
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: I think if you think about this two years.

629
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: Five years, ten years out from now, like they're probably

630
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: not using that. If we think about inscribing stuff on

631
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: the blockchain, you know, seeing the Wikipedia being put on

632
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: the blockchain, seeing the Bible being put in the blockchain,

633
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: or three D gun schematics like that seems like a

634
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: pretty cool use case. I suppose of stuff that you know,

635
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: we want to preserve for all time, and I think

636
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: so one, I guess, do you think the monkey jpeg

637
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: is like a little introductory use case that probably goes

638
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: away because it's why would you spend that much money

639
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: to send it?

640
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: Do you see a higher use case of it? I

641
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: guess I'll just throw that out there.

642
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: I think I think it's you know, it's just data, right,

643
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 3: so whatever data is valid, and if it's pure, if

644
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: it's just the pure transaction and it's just for me

645
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 3: to get my bitcoin to you at the lowest bites

646
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: right in the lowest fee, that's the best use case

647
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 3: in my opinion, because it is a cash network, it's

648
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: a payments network, it's a monetary system, and that's I think.

649
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: The only thing I.

650
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: Would say to this case is like in the eighties,

651
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: we considered information like my morning newspaper, my nightly news.

652
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: Today it's like a.

653
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: Kid on Instagram in South Pacific posted a picture and.

654
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: I see what the waves look like.

655
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: The information has changed, and I think what we consider

656
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: money or even value communication is going to be different

657
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: in the future.

658
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: I really just try to be agnostic, Like I just think,

659
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: whatever the node allows as long as I'm running and

660
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: then that node software because I presumably agree with the

661
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: rule set. What an argument do I have, like against

662
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: how anyone else wants to use it? I just think

663
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 3: it's fine use it.

664
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: Also, like, high prices create innovation, right, So if oil

665
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: prices go really high, you start figuring out how to

666
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: get cheaper oil or maybe an EV or new technologies, right,

667
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: and so like maybe higher fees will start to push

668
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: new technologies on layer twos and layer threes and things

669
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: like that.

670
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: They will absolutely will. I think the lightning people. I

671
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: say the lightning people just because I haven't been participating

672
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 3: in the lightning economy too much, but the people that

673
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: are really building their businesses around lightning and like, and

674
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 3: also their intellectual capacity around developing it, which is definitely

675
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: going to be a massive, like way a scaling solution

676
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: for bitcoin an important one. This is good for them.

677
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: Costier base layer stuff does unfortunately price out some of

678
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: the market. That market is therefore forced to use some

679
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: kind of substitute, whether it's a layered substitute like through

680
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 3: a custodian or non custodian, or in some cases they

681
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: don't use it at all. They use something else entirely.

682
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: They might even use gold coins for something like I

683
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: don't know, maybe that gets re monetized at some point.

684
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 3: But these are good things. I agree completely. It prices

685
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: in the necessity to drive more resources to towards new tech.

686
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: So that's the other thing I was talking about. So

687
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: I was talking about this the other day. You know,

688
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: if you look at the monkey jpeg, the NFT things,

689
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: so to speak, right, like, the people that are buying

690
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 2: monkey JPEGs or NFTs whatever, they're not buying into the

691
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: ethos or I should say, more specifically, the real value

692
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: of bitcoin being censorship resistant, immutable, decentralized, they're just buying.

693
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: They're gambling too. I mean that you made that point.

694
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: We saw what happened in Ethereum back you know, a

695
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: couple years ago, when the JPEGs were really going hot.

696
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: The transaction fees got so high that all the NFTs

697
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: jumped to Salana where they were much cheaper. So the

698
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: people that want the monkey JPEGs, they're gonna they don't

699
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: want to pay high fees, They're going to go to

700
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: where the fees are lower. So when you start thinking

701
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: about this from a competitive landscape like the financial transactions

702
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: will always win out. Like the financial the JPEGs don't care,

703
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: they don't want to pay high fee, They'll just go

704
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: to Salon, and so Salon is always going to be

705
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: there for them. So I think a lot of that

706
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: just sort of takes care of itself.

707
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: So one, I'm curious.

708
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: Your point on that. And then the next question I

709
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: want to add on top of that is your take

710
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 2: on that we have about a minute a half.

711
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: Two.

712
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: Do you think that when we make these changes like

713
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: tap route, we get unintended consequences like this? And do

714
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: you think it'd be a danger to go back and

715
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: rechange it now to try to fix this? And who

716
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: knows what unintended consequences we get from that.

717
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's why I've been I stir a lot

718
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 3: up on social media when I criticize the development process

719
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 3: at bitcoin core, because I think there's been cases, especially

720
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: when they're trying to rush upgrades, you know through the system,

721
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 3: like through minor activation, like softworks like early signaling, and

722
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 3: they're literally out like people are literally out campaigning to

723
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: mining pools to like, hey, please activate this and please

724
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 3: signal this. It's just a terrible way to go about

725
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: it in my view, And the fact is, like no

726
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 3: one's perfect. Huoing the Bitcoin cored development process, it's not perfect.

727
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: And I think because me, you and I think most

728
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 3: of the listeners here were really big into bitcoin. We

729
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: think it's the future of money. I think it's critical

730
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 3: that we don't rush things. I see this as a

731
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: system that's going to last a thousand years. People might

732
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: laugh at that, but I really do think it has

733
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: the fundamentals to last one thousand years. And so you know,

734
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: I don't see a rush like I just think. I'm

735
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: like an ocifist, like I want I want the code

736
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: to stop developing, or at least develop at the correct pace.

737
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: And let's not I shouldn't say stop developing. I just

738
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: want things to be you know, we need a solid

739
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: foundation for everyone to build on and shifting it, you know,

740
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 3: we should be very careful about. But that's the nice

741
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: thing is the users can choose what software to run.

742
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: And that's why I have an upgrade in my node.

743
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 3: Personally that the node I do use at home in

744
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: a long time and I don't plan on it.

745
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we got to wrap it up with that.

746
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: If you're just tune in you're listening to the Mark

747
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: ma Show. We've been talking with Steven Barbara from Upstream Data, Inc.

748
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: You should definitely check out what he's doing. We'll make

749
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: sure we linked all that in the show notes down below,

750
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: and with that we got to sign it off.

751
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Thanks Mark,