1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm looking to stuff 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: I never told your production if I high Radio Well. 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring this classic back because I feel 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: like during our recent zine slash Fanzine episode, which was 5 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: really fun, it was that some of you were probably 6 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: shouting at us and specifically me during that episode that 7 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: we didn't mention this topic because I sort of lamented, like, oh, 8 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: big companies are coming in and they're trying to look 9 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: like zines. Um capitalism ruins everything, which but there have 10 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: been examples of zines that went on to become full 11 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: fledged magazines and we're pretty successful. And one of them 12 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: was Bitch Magazine. UM Yes, which I did not read 13 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: growing up. I think I was kind of young for it, 14 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: but it closed. It shut down in June two due 15 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: to financial reasons. We were lucky enough me and Bridget 16 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: to talk to uh Andy Zeisler of Bitch Magazine. Uh 17 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: And if you'll forgive me listening to this one, this 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: was when I was very new as a hosted that 19 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: mom never told you, so please be be patient with 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: me because I was also very nervous. But I thought 21 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: we would bring this one back and sort of live 22 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: in those memories, so please enjoy. Hey, this is Bridget 23 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: and this is Annie, and you're listening the stuff mom 24 00:01:49,800 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: never told you. So some of you all might have 25 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: listened to my good friend Annie's first official Sminty episode 26 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: as a co host, all about bad feminism, our feminism, 27 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: how we became feminists, And honestly, I was so inspired 28 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: Annie by your poignant sharing of your kind of sometimes 29 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: a bumpy journey to feminism. Yeah, very kind of bumpy. 30 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: And I was very honestly shy to tell that story 31 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: and come out swinging of the gate I'm a bad feminist. 32 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: But the response from everyone has been so great and 33 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: so welcoming, and I really appreciate it, and thank you 34 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: Bridget for convincing me like you've got to do this. Um, 35 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: it's just it's nice to share that with listeners, that 36 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: this kind of journey that we're all making mistakes in 37 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: and trying to be better in, and this community that 38 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: helps us all hopefully get better at being feminist even 39 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: if we are still making mistakes. Definitely, well one that's 40 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: sort of our kind of semi motto for the show, 41 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: learning and growing together. But I think the response that 42 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: we got from you being so honest about your feminist journey. 43 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: A lot of people identified with that journey. They said, 44 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: I often felt like I couldn't call myself a feminist, 45 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: or I would feel like I'm not feminist enough, or 46 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not this enough or not that enough. 47 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: So it's certainly something that people um grapple with. I 48 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: also thought it was really interesting that you talked about 49 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: the ways that the earlier iterations of this show stuff 50 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: I'm never told you really helped you own your feminism. 51 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: That working behind the scenes as a producer on that 52 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: show really helped you one kind of get a crash 53 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: course and all these different issues and then to help 54 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: you own Mike, hell, yeah, I'm a feminist, you know, 55 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: from the girl who wanted to get her own textbook 56 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: when she was in school. If you if you remember 57 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: that story and he told it's a good one. Um 58 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: to this badat feminist podcast co host, thank you. It 59 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: was so instrumental and I'm not exaggerating when I say 60 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: it changed the course of my life. It gave me 61 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: so much perspective and I don't know where I would 62 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: be probably still like too embarrassed to make cookies for anyone, 63 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: but wanting to make cookies to people trampling with the cookies, 64 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: the cookie issue, it's going to me. Well, Anny, you 65 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: are actually not alone. So I was so inspired by 66 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: that episode in Your Honesty that I put out a 67 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: little bit of a call on social media and I said, hey, feminists, 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: what was the thing that made you a feminist? And, 69 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: as we know, for any part of that was sminty 70 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: and you were not alone. Karina on Twitter agrees with you. 71 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: She said that earlier iterations with stuff Mom never told 72 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: you really helped shape her feminism. She wrote, I started 73 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: listening as I turned twenty, back when Molly and Kristen 74 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: or my dream team. They opened my eyes so many 75 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: issues that impact women on a daily basis. I am 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: a feminist because of all the women that have hosted 77 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: the show, and they've thought me and inspired me to be, 78 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: which I think is so nice. It's it's almost like 79 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: a similar thing to what you went through. Yeah, it 80 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: is very much similar. Um. Podcasting is such an interesting 81 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: thing because it can be solitary sometimes because you're in 82 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: room and we're talking together and it's lovely, but to 83 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: hear from other people that are sharing this experience with 84 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: you is so rewarding. And I connect to that so 85 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: much because I was a listener to I was hearing 86 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: it my ears and thinking like, wow, I've never considered 87 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: all of this, this, this, this, this, and there are 88 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: women that are thinking like me and it it gave 89 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: me the strength that I needed two become allowed and 90 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: proud feminist. Yeah, and the coast of the feminist pocket. 91 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: I know another person on Twitter whom I loved their response. 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: This is from at free Pants, one of my favorite 93 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: Twitter users. Actually it's hilarious. Um. They said that Sailor 94 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: Moon an all girl team saving the world. Yes, please, 95 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: the Spice Girls, which I used to have love when 96 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: I was growing up, Destiny's Child Zena and strangely enough, Catwoman, 97 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: a victim turned a villain with her own agency. Is it? 98 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: Can you relate to that? Yes? I may or may 99 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: not dress up as Catwoman once a year. Oh my gosh, wait, 100 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: board a holiday or just around the house. Yeah, it's 101 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: just making an omelet and a catwoman. I can see 102 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: someone someone coming to your place and me being like, 103 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to slip into something more comfortable and then 104 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: you come back just to see their reaction. Yeah, I'm 105 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: we're painting this very strange picture of my outside of 106 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: work life and I don't. I'm not opposed to it. Yeah, 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: people you should. People should get to know the real 108 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: Annie as I do, because it's glorious. Thank you. Another 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: Twitter users Spotlight and on Inclusion said at Annie to 110 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: Franco Lyrics, she opened my ears to struggle as I 111 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: hadn't get encountered, but it meant I was more prepared 112 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: and knew what things shouldn't be tolerated. I learned that 113 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: strong women call out bullsh but can still love tenderly 114 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: and find meaning in small moments, which I I love 115 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: that too, because one of my biggest pet peeves, especially 116 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: in media, is the strong woman who that's all she is, Like, 117 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: you get rid of all femininity and she's this one 118 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: dimensional strong lady. But it's okay to be to love 119 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: tenderly and be have these feminine things and still be 120 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: a feminist and be strong. We can be multidimensional, complex people, 121 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: I know, right, I definitely I love seeing that and 122 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: hearing that, um, just women calling out bulls and being 123 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: strong but also still women. Yeah. I relate to Spotlight 124 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: on Inclusion so much on this because I probably no surprise. 125 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: I loved any Diffranco growing up. Um. I thought she 126 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: was so red and so cool, and you know, I 127 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: had a short that said righteous Bitch was, which was 128 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: the name of her recording label. But as this this 129 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: Twitter user points out, her music was very strong and 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: it was strong women calling out, but it was also 131 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: very tender. Um, whenever I go through a tough romantic time, 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: you can bet and listening to Untouchable Phase, which if 133 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: you know that song, you know, it's like a perfect 134 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: song to It's a very good breakup song. It's a 135 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: very good you know, um yeah, just good note. If 136 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: I hear that song, I'll be like, oh, there's a 137 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: great line. I mean, this is this is really like 138 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: if you really want to get to some emo bridget 139 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: it's a great line on that song where she says, um, 140 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: it's you and your untouchable face, you for existing in 141 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: the first place, and who am I that I should 142 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: be longing for your touch? Who am I? You can't 143 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: even give me that much? Like, yes, you know, but 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: it's also very sad, very tender. So yeah, I think 145 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: this Twitter or use everything nails what it is about 146 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: those lyrics where it's just like what you were saying, 147 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: on the one hand, it's very strong and very independent, 148 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: but on the other hand, it's very tender and touching 149 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: and loving and pointing it. Um, it's the it's the 150 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: beautiful mess that is the modern day feminist. I guess 151 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: absolutely contained an a Diffranco lyrics exactly. We should do 152 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: an episode on her. I would love it. I'm so 153 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: impressed that you just busted that all right now, I could. 154 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: I might. This is embarrassing. I might know every Annie 155 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: DeFranco song by heart. And there was one night where 156 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: I got very drunk in a bar with my Stephanie 157 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: shout at the Stephanie Black Um where we were I 158 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: want to I want to say it was a karaoke bar, 159 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: but it wasn't. We were just drunk and screaming in 160 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: the lyrics to Annie DeFranco. And I'm sure you thought 161 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: you sounded amazing. Girl. Yeah, shout out to that bar 162 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: that didn't kick us out but probably should have. Yeah, 163 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: very very kind of you to let them live that moment. 164 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes your drunk feminist rage cannot be contained. Oh I 165 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: know about that. So what I loved about these responses 166 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: on Twitter was that it really makes you think you know, 167 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: what was the thing that made me become a feminist? Like, 168 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: what were some of the figures and celebrities and media 169 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: and things that really helped me own that label? And 170 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: in the episode that you did around your Your Journey 171 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: to Feminism, I shared that one of the things for 172 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: me was Bitch Magazine. And you know, I talked a 173 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: bit about this on that episode if y'all have heard it. 174 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: But you know, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, 175 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: and I grew up in a really white small town, 176 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and I spent a lot of my young adult life 177 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: feeling out of place and not really sure how or 178 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: where I fit in with the world, and thinking, gee, 179 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: if I maybe I'll never feel like I belong anywhere. 180 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: Maybe this is just my life. I'll always feel like 181 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: the odd ball. And you know, when I was in 182 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: high school, I listened to music like Whole and I 183 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: still love Whole and Latigue Ree and all these great 184 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of like riot girl musicians that I really loved. 185 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: And I loved music. I was also drawn to movies 186 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: and TV shows that sort of had a m had 187 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: heroines or main characters who were sort of like troubled 188 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: and wayward young women I'm talking about things like the craft. 189 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: I can probably quote in its entirety box Fire, which 190 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: is a movie based on a Joyce Carol Oates book 191 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: about a group of sort of wayward girls who form 192 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: a kind of a girl gang. Um, you know, things 193 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:40,119 Speaker 1: like buffy, things like girl Interrupted, anything involving like a dark, wayward, 194 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: misunderstood female protagonist. I was like in and I don't 195 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: think I quite realized it, but these were like the 196 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: early budding kind of feminist seedlings inside of me. And 197 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't until encountering Bitch magazine that those seedlings kind 198 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: of became a plan and it all crystallized. I was like, Oh, 199 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm a feminist. That's the word. That's why I like 200 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: all these like weird dark movies and all these women 201 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: screaming in my ears and my in my earphones. That's 202 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: what this is like. It really was like a like 203 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: the stars all aligned, and you know, growing up in 204 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: a small town, I remember the series of events that 205 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: led to this very clearly Burns and Noble, you know, 206 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: and that was in a small This is gonna sound dumb, 207 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: but when you're in a small town that was like 208 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: the height of cosmopolitan life. Was it the same for you. 209 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: I had to get I had to drive thirty minutes, 210 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: and it was such a like we would hang out 211 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: there just like look at that's like a very specific 212 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: like when you live in the middle of nowhere, there's 213 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: a very specific thing driving to the Burns and Noble 214 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: in your town, even if it's like far away, to 215 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: sit and drink coffee and just be around books. And 216 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: for you that feels like, oh, I mean, I felt 217 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: like I was like living in Manhattan, like hanging out 218 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: in the village. Yes, like that was the height of 219 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: cosmopolitan life right there. Like in Stay in Virginia when 220 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: I was growing up. That's what they must be doing 221 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: in Manhattan. Drinking a caramel machiata in a Starbucks in 222 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: your school uniform four pm. That is what people in 223 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: New York do. Yes, yes, and looking forward to perusing 224 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: the aisles, every aisle of book That's what I would do. 225 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: I would walk down every aisle and be like maybe 226 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: I could read that, Yeah, maybe let myself pick out 227 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: one book. Yeah, And it's it's it's wild because the 228 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: experience of going to Barnes and Noble felt kind of 229 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: new and exciting and different for me and it's signaled, oh, 230 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: possibility outside of my release small town. And there was 231 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: possibility outside of the things I saw around me because 232 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: it was difficult to get access to other kinds of things. 233 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: And I know people who are a bit younger, maybe 234 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: you're like, ever heard of the internet? Listen, I am 235 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: thirty two years old, my thirty two or three three? 236 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't want a birthday sidebar, how dis bridged. I'm 237 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: in my thirties right. So when I was growing up, like, 238 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: we didn't get a computer in our house until I 239 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: was almost off to college. I didn't have my first 240 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: personal computer that I owned until I was a sophomore 241 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: in college. Like, I showed up to college without a computer. 242 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: I don't think because we have computers, that was the thing. 243 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: And so I think that younger folks forget what it 244 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: was like to not really have easy access to things 245 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: that showed you the world outside of your own backyard. 246 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: And you know, when we when we got a computer 247 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: in our kitchen, it was that dialogue and it wasn't 248 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: the same as now or if you want feminist perspectives, 249 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: you google it and there's a trillion things out there. 250 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't like that, And so even as someone who 251 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: was interested in different kinds of music. Finding getting my 252 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: hands on that music was a slog. It involved conning 253 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: my dad, who luckily was a big jazz fan, having 254 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: him drive me into the city of Richmond so we 255 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: could go to this record store Planned nine Music, which 256 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: is still there today, and I had to say there 257 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: had to be something that he on it, So there 258 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: had to be like it had to coincide with, oh, 259 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: there's this new jazz record out that I want, and 260 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Bridget wants to go dig through the whatever music, you know, 261 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: the whatever feminist band, whatever. And it involved like asking 262 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: my dad to drive me on the odd chance, and 263 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: it was like he wanted to go to going and 264 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: then hoping they had whatever I wanted in stock and 265 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, if they didn't, it was like can you 266 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: order it? And then that was another thing, so like 267 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: in two weeks, I gotta figure out how I'm gonna 268 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: get back there, and it was It wasn't mean. Part 269 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: of it was kind of fun because it was like 270 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: hunting things down and it was like a little bit 271 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: of a treasure hunt. But you know, people take for 272 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: granted what that was like, and these days you have 273 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: everything at your fingertips, and back then it just wasn't 274 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, Um, Bridget and I had a conversation 275 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: off Mike about how I also had the one dial 276 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: up computer and the connection was so slow that it 277 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: would take time. I had a hotmail email and it 278 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: would take probably fifteen minutes for it to load. And 279 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: I was really big and too fan fiction, Um and 280 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: I because we had to share the computer and everyone 281 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: had thirty minute block, I would print out the fan 282 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: fiction so I could take it to my room. I'd 283 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: staple it together if I would take it to my 284 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: room and read it. And sometimes the fan fiction was crappy, 285 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: and I was really disappointed by because I didn't have 286 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: time to read it because you spent all this time, 287 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: all your a lotted hour computer time printing this stuff out. Yes, 288 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: And then I'm like, well, this is what a waste. 289 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: I gotta wait till tomorrow in my thirty minutes, and 290 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: I hope I find a better one. Yeah. God, what 291 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: those were the days? Right? What a strange experience to 292 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: explain to people now, I mean it's explained that to 293 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: someone who grew up always having a smartphone, right, they 294 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: would be like, what are you? They wouldn't what are 295 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: you talking about? Dial up? What too? What were your name? 296 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: And then my mom would get on the phone. Oh 297 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: my god. Remember when your mom would pick up the phone. 298 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: You'd be like, I'm on the internet. Hang on the phone. 299 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: Oh oh my god. Nothing, nothing would ruin your day faster. 300 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: And my mom was always like, what are you doing 301 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: up there? And here stops coming like oh no. It's 302 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: always like, oh man, there needs to be a podcast 303 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: on like the very early days of the internet. Because 304 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure there is, but that was it was such 305 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: a specific and unique experience. It really was. It really was. 306 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: And I another thing to people don't think about his 307 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: maps and like making plans, and I remember I used 308 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: to print out these maps and I would draw on 309 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: them like here, now you just put in your GPS. Anyway, 310 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: we are getting away from this podcast. It's just like 311 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: you darn kids. But my my dad still has those 312 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: remember those giant road atlases that were huge. He still 313 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: has those in his car. But there must be a 314 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 1: dad thing where yeah, not throwing out these good atlas 315 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: is yeah, you never know when you're gonna need an atlas. Okay, 316 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: you're you're right. I can't I can't argue with that, Okay, 317 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: So to bring it back, because this isn't just a 318 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: podcast about you, darn kids, darn between. Basically, Bitch magazine 319 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: was foundational to me becoming a feminist and owning a 320 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: owning feminism, understanding feminism. I remember very very clearly the 321 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: first time that I saw it in Barnes and Noble, 322 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: and I thought, Bitch, what is that? You know, I 323 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: had never seen a magazine that was so in your face, 324 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: so unapologetic. You know, there have been other magazines that 325 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: were sort of feminist e that I knew about that 326 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: Burnes and Noble did not carry for whatever reason. I'm 327 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: talking about magazines like Bust and Jane and Sassy. But 328 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Bitch was different for me because I felt like that 329 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: kind of magazine that you were, you weren't being sold 330 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: something all the time. It was very sort of skeptical 331 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: and critical, which I which I identified with. And yeah, 332 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: I remember my mom wouldn't actually let me have it 333 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: in the house because it had a dirty word on 334 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: the cover, so I'd have to rip off the cover 335 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: so she wouldn't see. Um, you can see what I had. 336 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, honestly, like reading, I mean had interviews with 337 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: like Bell Hooks and things like that, things that I 338 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: would have never ever been had access to. And honestly, 339 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: when you're young and you feel marginalized and isolated and 340 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you have a lot of people 341 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: who understand you, and I guess a lot of teams 342 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: feel that way, whether you're a feminist or a woman 343 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: or whatever. I think that's part of being a young 344 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: person when you find something that you feel like speaks 345 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: to you and that you feel like provides a glimpse 346 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: of what the world could be like outside of your 347 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: small town or whatever, um, and that there are people 348 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: out there that think like you, feel like you had 349 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: the same ideas as you. That's huge for me. That 350 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: was like I was like a pair of wings. Oh 351 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: my god. And you know, when I was in school, 352 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: I meant to a small, prestigious Catholic girls high school 353 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: in Richmond, Virginia, and my school was great. My school 354 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: was full of really amazing and talented, strong women. Um. 355 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: They had a real tradition of social justice and social change. 356 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: And to desend that these nuns displayed at my school, 357 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: which I loved and I was very I cherished even 358 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: to this day, but they weren't talking about what to 359 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: do when your boyfriend rapes you, or you know, how 360 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: to be a feminist if you feel isolated from feminism 361 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: because you're not a white woman. People in my school 362 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: were talking about in the importance of being a strong woman, 363 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: which was great, but they weren't talking about it in 364 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: terms of like issues that I can understand. And this 365 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: was the first time that that was I was sort 366 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: of exposed to that, and so it was huge. It 367 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: was huge for me. It's amazing how much just knowing 368 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: that there are other people out there that you're not 369 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: the only one, how beneficial that is, and how much 370 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: that can gird you and provide support for you to 371 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: continue to flourish in your path, and to know that 372 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: there's there's something outside of this, there's something waiting for 373 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: me that I can I can latch onto, that I 374 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: can do later. Definitely, definitely. Well that's why I am 375 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: so so so excited and kind of fan girling that 376 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: we're about to be joined by none other and Bitch 377 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: Magazine co founder Andy Zeisler after this quick break and 378 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: we're back. I am so so, so so so excited 379 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: to be joined by Andy Zeisler. Andy is a long 380 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: time freelance writer and illustrator, and she co founded Bitch Media. 381 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: In these days, Bitches circulated internationally to more than fifty people. 382 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 1: Andy's work has appeared in numerous major publications like MS, Mother, Jones, Bust, 383 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: and the San Francisco Chronicle. Today, we are so excited 384 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: to be welcomed in studio with the one the only 385 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: Bitch co founder Andy Zeisler. Andy, thank you so much 386 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: for being here today. Thanks for having me so Andy. 387 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: I opened this podcast talking about how foundational Bitch Magazine 388 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: was to you know, high school Bridget and her understanding 389 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: of feminism. It's one of the reasons why I host 390 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: a I co host a feminist podcast is because a 391 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: bit it was really the thing that opened my eyes 392 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: and um, it's interesting and doing research for this episode, 393 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: this great documentary filmmaker um Amy Zerig, she was an 394 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: early subscriber to bit She recalls that when um Bitch 395 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: first got started there it was the kind of thing 396 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: that you dreamed should exist but didn't exist. And I 397 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: think that's very, very true. So I think when I 398 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: when I talked to you, I think, gee, Andy is 399 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: the kind of person who thinks O x y Z 400 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: should exist and then makes it right. Like that seems 401 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: to be kind of who you are. So I just 402 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: wanted to start by by asking, like what made you 403 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: a feminist, Like what what was your upbringing? Like how 404 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: did you become the kind of person that you know 405 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: sees this this need and and creates it. Well, first 406 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: of all, I just want to say, you know, thank 407 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: you so much for for your kind words, because that 408 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: like hearing that that that's really affected people and change 409 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: their thinking and inspired them is like that's literally why 410 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: we do this, Like nobody is in this for you know, 411 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: the money, you know, like feminist independent media really is 412 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: like it's it's just all about trying to to make 413 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: a difference. And you know, seeing that, you know, even 414 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: a few people out in the world, um being inspired 415 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: by it can can really lead to a lot of 416 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: cool stuff happening. So so yeah, thanks for that. It's 417 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: funny like I don't remember, you know, I think they're 418 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: like individual moments in my upbringing where I, you know, 419 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: I sort of clocked that something was unfair or like 420 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: I recognized an instance of h sexism or just kind 421 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: of like ambient discrimination, but I didn't have any language 422 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: for it. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't like my 423 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: parents were particularly political. Well, first of all, I read 424 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: a ton of books, and so I think the first 425 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: time I saw the word feminist or learned about the 426 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: concept of feminism wasn't in school. It was probably in uh, 427 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: like a young adult novel by Norma Klein, who was 428 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: this New York writer who wrote these incredibly uh you know, 429 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: medi intellectual novels about like, you know, earnest white liberal 430 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: kids in New York City sort of discovering their sexuality 431 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: or whatnot. And so there were often like feminist characters 432 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: that she would write about, and it wasn't it just 433 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: wasn't a big deal. It was like, oh, yeah, this 434 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: person is a feminist and this is what she believes. Um. 435 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: And so I think that was where I first heard 436 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: the like, heard of the concept and recognized it um. 437 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: And then you know, at some point I just must 438 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: have put it together with stuff that I, like, I said, 439 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: stuff that I sort of recognized as being a feeling 440 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: off to me, like the fact, for instance, that like, uh, 441 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: my brother, one of my one of my older brothers, 442 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: took homac in junior high. So he knew how to 443 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: use a sewing machine, and yet my mother would constantly 444 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: ask me to like mend his clothing, like can you 445 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: have your brother's jeans? Or like can you sew this 446 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: button on your brother's shirt? And it's not that I 447 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: minded doing it. I just minded that I should be 448 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: the one to do it, even though he actually had 449 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: the skills to do it, you know. So it was 450 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff like that. Yeah, I can totally 451 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: relate to that. Ridget and I've discussed before that we 452 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: like cooking, we don't like being expected to be the 453 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: one to cook. It's a very particular line of yeah, 454 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: I don't mind doing this thing, but I don't want 455 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: to be expected to be the one to do it either. Yeah. 456 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: The chores in my house were just extremely gendered, and 457 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: I was sort of like, this doesn't make sense, Like 458 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: I like taking the garbage out. Why can't I take 459 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: the garbage out? Like why do I have to clear 460 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: the dinner table? Just yeah, yeah, that that was the 461 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: case in my house too. To this day, I have 462 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: never mowed a lawn in my life. It's never happened. More. 463 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: I've never touched a low over because that's was like 464 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: that that's a boy job. Quote unquote, you know, yeah, 465 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: m can you talk a little bit about how a 466 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: bit got started? So, um, my best friends from high 467 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: school we went to we went to different colleges, but 468 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: we stayed in touch, and when we graduated, uh, we 469 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: just you know, we decided that we were going to 470 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: spend the summer together. And she was planning to move 471 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: to the Bay Area in San Francisco from New York, 472 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: where we were from. And I didn't really know what 473 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: I was doing. I just wasn't really sure. I was 474 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: like maybe going to apply to grad school, but I 475 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: also didn't really know. And um, so she was like, 476 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: let's just, you know, let's just drive across country and 477 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 1: you can see how you like California, and uh and 478 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: I ended up, you know, really liking living there, and um, 479 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: a lot of what we did, uh we you know, 480 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: we had like pretty um normal grunt work sort of 481 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: day jobs. She worked in a bookstore. I worked in 482 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: an arts supply store, and during all our free time, 483 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: we consume pop culture. We went to the movies, We 484 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: bought magazines and sort of read them and shared them. 485 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: We were constantly reading books. I was super into music 486 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: and ended up becoming like a music journalist, and we 487 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: just realized at some point how much time we were 488 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: spending talking amongst ourselves about how media and pop culture 489 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: really didn't seem to be evolving to reflect the kind 490 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: of real world that we saw around us, both of 491 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: us at separate times when we were living in New York. 492 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: For me, it was right after high school, were interns 493 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: at Sassy Magazine, which was um a teen magazine that 494 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: was started specifically to kind of counter the status quo 495 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: of teen magazines where you know, they were filled with 496 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 1: diet tips and they sort of centered you know, boys 497 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: and prom as the you know, going concerns of a 498 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: teenage girl's life, and Sassy, which was based off of 499 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: a Australian magazine called Dolly, really went in a different direction. 500 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: It was very much about like, well, you know, why 501 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: should boys be the center of your life? Were like, 502 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: it's great to be an individual, um, and so interning 503 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: there was a really interesting, uh, sort of lesson in 504 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: how the mainstream media sausage gets made. And at the 505 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: time that Lisa and I were, you know, sort of 506 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: doing all this talking about pop culture and talking about 507 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: how it didn't really reflect our lives are the lives 508 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: of the people we knew Sassy magazine. It didn't fold, 509 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: but it got bought by a very large media conglomerate 510 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,719 Speaker 1: and it kind of got zombified, Like we called it 511 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: bizarro Sassy because they had they fired all the really 512 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: interesting writers and editors and they brought in a new 513 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: crop and they tried to sort of mimic the tone 514 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: and the attitude of the original Sassie, but it was 515 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: like it was just so embarrassing. It which is it 516 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: just like didn't work. You can always tell when when 517 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: it's like people are faking the funk. You know, it's 518 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: to be authentic, and this is super non authentic and 519 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: in fact it's embarrassing. Yeah, it's sort of like the 520 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: scene in Mean Girls where Amy Poehler's like, I'm not 521 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: a regular mom, I'm a coal mom, and the new 522 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: Sassie was absolutely like it was. It was, Yeah, it 523 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: was embarrassing. It was mortifying. And and so we started 524 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: talking about like the idea that you know, in in 525 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: kind of mourning the demise of Sassy, we were sort 526 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 1: of like, there needs to be something to fill that gap. 527 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: There needs to be something that you know, has a 528 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: feminist spirit but also meets teenagers where they're at. UM 529 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 1: and MS for a long time had been you know, 530 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: the feminist magazine. And actually when I worked, when I 531 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: was an Internet sassy, MS was a few floors up 532 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: in the one Time Square building and so I was 533 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: always running up there to get like old copies for research. UM. 534 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: But at the time this was around, uh MS was 535 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: really no longer engaging with media and pop culture as 536 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: sort of a locusts of feminism. It had really you know, 537 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: turned towards incredibly meati global investigative reporting, which was great, 538 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: but it really there was that lack and uh and 539 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: Lisa and I were just, you know, we were kind 540 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: of frustrated readers. We were looking to read the kind 541 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: of stuff that we were talking about and that we 542 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: wanted to write about, but there really wasn't much out there. 543 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there was, you know, there was very academic 544 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: writing about media and pop culture, like you know, Bell 545 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: Hooks and and folks like that, and then there was 546 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: like maybe the occasional article in like Rolling Stone or 547 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: Spin that might engage with you know, feminism or sexism 548 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: in the music industry, but there was nothing obviously like 549 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: there is now because this was just at the start 550 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: of the Internet. Um. And so yeah, at some point 551 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: we realized like, well, the stuff we want to read, 552 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: we might have to be the ones to write it. Um. 553 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: And so it really was in our minds like, this 554 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: is stuff that we want to read, and we also 555 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: see this as like a whole in in the market, 556 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: you know, or or in the possibilities of you know, 557 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: reading material and sort of inspiration for for teenagers and um. 558 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: And so that was how we started conceiving of Bitch, 559 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: was like, what if there was something that was a 560 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: cross between Sassy and Miss that really acknowledged how central 561 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: media and pop culture are two young people who are 562 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: sort of forming their impressions about the world and about 563 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 1: politics and about their place. Um. And that was, you know, 564 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: that was how it started. That's perfect. I mean, you 565 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: you really teased out my experience as a teenage reader 566 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: of Bitch. You know my Um I shared earlier on 567 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: the show that my mom wasn't the biggest fan of 568 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: Bitch magazine had a dirty word on the cover, and 569 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: she would buy me Miss magazine instead. And just like 570 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: you said, I mean, Miss magazine was dealing with very 571 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: important global issues that I'm glad they were dealing with. 572 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: But you know, I was four keeen, I wasn't. I wasn't. 573 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: That wasn't what I was trying to read, and I 574 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: felt when I was just sort of grappling with what 575 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: it was to be a feminist. Bitch spoke to me 576 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: in a way that said, like, hey, you're maybe you're 577 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: watching Buffy a lot, maybe you're doing this a lot, 578 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: maybe you're doing that a lot. Well, you can take 579 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: a feminist critique of those things. You know, maybe you 580 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: love watching this thing or dealing with this piece of 581 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: pop culture. That can be understanding how that works can 582 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: be a part of your feminism and an expression of 583 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: your feminist And that was the first time that I 584 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: had ever encountered that, and it really just met me 585 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: where I was, because you know what, when I was fourteen, 586 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: I wish I was, but I wasn't the kind of 587 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: fourteen year old who was interested in researching global poverty 588 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: and it's impact on women, you know, in the world. 589 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: I wish I was, but I was not. I was 590 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and was wanting someone to 591 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: give me a feminist critique of that. Through that lens 592 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: and Bitch was the magazine that helped me deal with 593 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,959 Speaker 1: that and help me understand that. So what you're saying 594 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: is I mean I was like, yeah, exactly that, That's 595 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: exactly how it felt, right, And that was kind of 596 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: our hunch was like, well, we can't be the only 597 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: people out you know, we are obviously not the only 598 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: people out there that you know, has these thoughts and 599 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: lots to talk about them. And so we really we 600 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: were just like, well we have to, you know, we 601 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: have to chase this hunch that there is an audience 602 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: for this um and that other people, you know, see 603 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: popular culture and media as a way to uh kind 604 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: of talk about you know, gender and feminism and power 605 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: and sex um And yeah, so that's that's kind of 606 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: what we That's kind of what we were hoping. How 607 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: did you all become from interns at Sassy to financing 608 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: your own media publication, Like that's that's the thing. I'm like, 609 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: how did that happen? Well? We started incredibly small. We 610 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: started as a zine. We were like, you know, black 611 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: and white zine. And this was a time when zines 612 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: were kind of having a moment um and I had 613 00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: been like an avid reader of zines starting when I 614 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: was you know, early early on in college, UM, partly 615 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: because of probably because of Fassy, which had like a 616 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: little zine of the month feature, and you know, there 617 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: was a big uh there was a publication called fact 618 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: Sheet five that just listed all of the zines in 619 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: the world that we're being produced by category. And so 620 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: you know, you'd put two dollars in the mail and 621 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, at least eight five percent of the time 622 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: you'd get a zine back. UM. And so I was 623 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: really it wasn't perfect. You know, I would have like 624 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: glitter in the envelope, you know what I mean. Like 625 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: there was this very like communal sense of like we're all, 626 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, let's put on a show. We're all doing 627 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: this um. And so we knew that, you know, we 628 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: weren't going to come out you know blazing with like 629 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: a business plan and like a full color thing. We 630 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: want to to kind of see you know, kind of 631 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: dip our toes in the independent media market. And we 632 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: knew from the start that whatever we were going to 633 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: do with this publication, UH, was not going to be 634 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: appealing to like a large or mainstream market. You know, 635 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,760 Speaker 1: we knew that the kind of content we were hoping 636 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: to publish was going to be very critical of mainstream media, 637 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: of advertising, of uh kind of you know, the kind 638 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: of gender mythology that's pushed by women's magazines and men's magazines, 639 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: and so for us, it wasn't really a question. It 640 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: was like, okay, so we're going to do this with 641 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: the resources we have, which are not much. Um. There 642 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: was a great museum in San Francisco, the Cartoon Art Museum, 643 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: and they would have like public panels on things like, 644 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, drawing comics, are making zines, and we went 645 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: to we went to one of the ones that was 646 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: on you know, how to how to create and distribute 647 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: your own zine, And that was sort of the moment 648 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: where we were like, holy wow, we could actually do this. Um. 649 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: And so we did, and we had definitely like our 650 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: parents kicked in and Lisa's grandfather kicked in some money. 651 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: But we're not talking like big bucks here. I think 652 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: the entire first print run maybe cost three hundred dollars. 653 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: And you know, we we were we thought we were 654 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: it was just going to be Xerox, but the the place, 655 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: the Xerox place we took it actually messed up and 656 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: ended up offset printing it, so the first issue actually 657 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: looked really good. Um. And then what we did is 658 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: we just you know, put boxes of it in Lisa's 659 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, old station wagon and just drove around and 660 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: went to every independent bookstore in Berkeley and Oakland and 661 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: San Francisco. And at that time, because zines were sort 662 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: of having this moment, you could walk in and say like, oh, 663 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: I have this zine, do you want to sell it 664 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: on consignment? The Bay Area at that time was really 665 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: just you know, brimming with independent d I Y media. 666 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: So we were definitely in the right place at the 667 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: right time. I think if we had been in New York, um, 668 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have had that kind of uh, there wouldn't 669 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: have been that sort of instant community and recognition that 670 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: this is like part of something bigger. We started taking 671 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: subscriptions immediately and had like a charter subscriber price, and 672 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: people started subscribing, and uh, it was it was kind 673 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: of wild and and and you know, and so we 674 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: knew like, okay, so this is something we should we 675 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: should definitely keep doing. We should try to make this 676 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: as you know, kind of formal a process as we can, 677 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: and try to have a public publishing schedule and and 678 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: give ourselves deadlines and find you know, writers and things 679 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, it uh, you know, we we 680 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: definitely flew by the seat of our pants. And I 681 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: often think that, you know, it's probably good that we 682 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: knew kind of very little about magazine distribution and production, 683 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: because it might have scared us off if we had 684 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: known too much. Let's take a quick break and we're back, 685 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: going back to the name and the trouble it got bridgeted. 686 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: I feel like you're ir responsible for getting me grounded. 687 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: If you die, I'm very sorry. Why did you call 688 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: it bitch? You know, it's easy for me to say 689 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: because she's not here, but um, my co editor, Lisa 690 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: was very much, uh the kind like it was very 691 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: much her project in the beginning, like she had like, 692 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: you know, she was the stronger personality, and um, she 693 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: was much more decisive than I was. And so when 694 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: we started talking about names, you know, we didn't we 695 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: did not like have that many options on the table. 696 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: When she was like, I think we should call it 697 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: bitch because it's a now and it's a verb, and 698 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's cool, that's enough for me. Um, 699 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: And of course we did talk about it. We talked 700 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: about the fact that, like, well, the kind of stuff 701 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: that we want to write about and that we want 702 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: to publish is absolutely the kind of content that is 703 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: going to be is going to get us tagged with 704 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: that label. Um. In there wasn't the word bitch didn't 705 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: have the kind of um sort of multifarious uses that 706 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: it has now. It very much still was uh the 707 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: word that you used to describe a woman who was, 708 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, saying something you didn't like, or doing something 709 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: in a way you didn't like, or you know, standing 710 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: up to other people. It didn't have the kind of 711 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,959 Speaker 1: friendly or like casual connotations or usage that it does now. 712 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 1: You weren't hearing it on TV or on the radio. 713 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: Um it very much still was one of those like 714 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: seven dirty words that you couldn't say. And we thought 715 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: about the idea of, you know what if we could 716 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: reclaim this word for women who were strong and who 717 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: stood up for themselves and who really wanted to to 718 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: talk about the ways that gender functions and that sexism 719 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: functions in media and pop culture. So the reason we 720 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: had the you know, sort of tagline a feminist response 721 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: to pop culture is that we really did want to 722 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 1: have the word feminist in there somewhere, but we also 723 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: kind of wanted a subtitle that was a little bit explanatory, um, 724 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: because we knew that the word bitch would probably draw 725 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: people in if they saw it on a newsstand, but 726 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: we wanted them to also see very clearly that this 727 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: was a feminist project. I love that. So you've mentioned 728 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about how the name bitch, how it 729 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: sort of had a different connotation back when y'all first 730 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: got started, sort along those lines. What was the feminist 731 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: media landscape like when when when you were putting which together? 732 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean today there seems like if there's so many 733 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: feminist publications and sort of feminist ish publications, you know 734 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: where it's kind of feminist e but who knows, Um, 735 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: what's what was the landscape like and sort of what 736 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: how is it different than our our current feminist media landscape? Yeah, um, 737 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: I mean it was very different. But you know, so 738 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: we started Bitch in and in the early nineties, um, again, 739 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: when we were both uh interning and very interested in Sassy, 740 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: we were aware that there was a sort of there 741 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: was sort of a feminism that was coalescing and a 742 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: lot of it was really centered in media and pop culture. 743 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: So like the riot girl movement, for instance, which started 744 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: getting a lot of notice in the early nineties around 745 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: um that was something that was, you know, very explicitly 746 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: based in popular culture. It was a response to, uh, 747 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, sexism in the punk music scene. It was 748 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: a response to, uh, you know, a kind of general 749 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 1: sense that even these supposed alternative subcultures that were supposed 750 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,720 Speaker 1: to set themselves apart from mainstream culture, we're still replicating 751 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the gender and power dynamics of the 752 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 1: things that they were supposedly against. And so riot girls 753 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: zanes and riot girl art projects and newsletters were very 754 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: much a new way to talk about feminism. And at 755 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: the same time, in the wake of d Anita Hill 756 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: and Clarence Thomas hearings, the third wave of feminism was 757 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: was starting to be come a thing, and Rebecca Walker, 758 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: Alice Alice Walker's daughter, had had coined that phrase third wave, 759 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: and so there was some there was this sense of 760 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,919 Speaker 1: like a little bit of a you know, kind of 761 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: ground swell of feminist thought and activity. There is something 762 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,720 Speaker 1: out there. MS is no longer you know, the only 763 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: game in town. As far as feminist media. We could 764 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: we could show up and and feel that we had 765 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: sort of comrades in this space. Yeah. So, I mean, 766 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: I I completely agree, having sort of existed while all 767 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: of these things were bubbling up. Um. And a couple 768 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: of things that set Bitch apart from magazines, like magazines 769 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: that I enjoyed, like Bust and Sassy and Miss One 770 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: was that, you know, you didn't really feel like you 771 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: were being sold to a lot when you read Bus. 772 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: There were ads and a lot of magazines if you 773 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: feel like you're reading a magazine full of ads with 774 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: a few articles. Bitch was not like that at all, 775 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: Like it was very much about the content of the magazine. 776 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: And there were ads, but like not that many and 777 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,319 Speaker 1: oftentimes very small, and you just didn't feel like you 778 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,359 Speaker 1: were being sold and marketed to. And as a as 779 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: a teenage girl, that's all you see, right, Like you're 780 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: getting bombarded all the time by this lip gloss, by 781 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: this by that you're too fat, by these pills, Like 782 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: it's hard, it's almost like inescapable. And so when I 783 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: would be Bitch, it's like, oh, it's a little bit 784 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: of a escape from that. And I don't, I know, 785 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: that's something that you've written about Andy in your book 786 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: we were feminists once you read a lot about how 787 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: these days, you know, feminism is cool, it's marketable, like 788 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,840 Speaker 1: it's it's on trend and on brand to to brand 789 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: yourself as as feminists to just sell more, and you know, 790 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: in in a kind of way like no shame to that, 791 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: like if you actually have feminist principles and your marketing 792 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: things alongside those values. Sure, okay, but you know, I 793 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 1: feel like Bitch was so skeptical of consumerist culture. Was 794 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 1: that Was that a conscious choice, like an editorial choice 795 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: that y'all made from the beginning? Definitely? I mean, um, 796 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, we knew that you know, this 797 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: was not this was we were not creating something that 798 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: like advertisers were going to be clamoring to, you know, 799 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: put their put their ads in. Um. And when when 800 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: I was at Sassy, certainly, you know, one of the 801 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,400 Speaker 1: things I one of the things I realized that I 802 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 1: really hadn't thought about before was that you know, in 803 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: in mainstream magazines, content is really just a vehicle for ads. 804 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: It's not the other way around. Like you sell ads, 805 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: you often have to create content that's adjacent to those ads, 806 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: or you have to promise that you know, the you know, 807 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: the big ad for like Stuart Whitesman shoes is going 808 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,800 Speaker 1: to run alongside a fashion spread that features Stuart Whitesman's shoes. 809 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:09,360 Speaker 1: In realizing that magazines are or mainstream magazines are essentially 810 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: a way to sell eyes two advertisers, that was a 811 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: real sort of see change in my understanding of magazines, 812 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,720 Speaker 1: which was a medium I had always just absolutely loved 813 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 1: with bits, you know, because we knew that it wasn't 814 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: it didn't really have the kind of uh draw for advertisers, 815 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: and because we knew that we were going to be 816 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: critiquing ads and the way that that ads are used, 817 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: in the way that they are, the way that they 818 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:45,840 Speaker 1: sort of work on particularly female psyches, it just didn't 819 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: really occur to us. And that that's why we you know, 820 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,760 Speaker 1: sort of very quickly realized like, oh, well we could 821 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: we could be a nonprofit, Like we could actually uh 822 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: find a different way to to raise money than advertising. 823 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: We could focus on, you know, getting sponsors or getting 824 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: donors or and what we eventually did was becoming almost 825 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: fully read or supported. We recognize very early on that 826 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: we were not going to be an ad driven magazine, 827 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: and that you know, we certainly did want to kind 828 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:29,800 Speaker 1: of forge partnerships with like minded organizations, whether they were 829 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: other nonprofit organizations or they were you know, record companies 830 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 1: that were independent, or publishers that were independent, or like, uh, 831 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: university programs that you know, wanted to get the word 832 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: out about, you know, for instance, uh, you know, their STEM, 833 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: their STEM programs or something like that. You know, if 834 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 1: we were going to have advertisers, we wanted never to 835 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: be in a position, uh where an ad that we 836 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: would critique if it were in a mainstream magazine was 837 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 1: in Bitch. You know. We never wanted to have that possibility, 838 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,760 Speaker 1: so we tried to be very intentional about it, created 839 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: a revenue model that was not dependent on ads. Speaking 840 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 1: of ads, um, the postal Service censored an ad for 841 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 1: dildos in the back cover, which is something I firstly 842 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,799 Speaker 1: find hilarious now because I I was home for Christmas. 843 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: My mom had like a land and some of the 844 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: like lands end maybe some magazine she got in the 845 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,160 Speaker 1: mail and she was flipping through it, and like, next 846 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: to the lawnombers was an entire page dedicated to different 847 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: dildos and we got such a big laugh out of it, 848 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 1: just because it was so unexpected, like in Placing and 849 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,439 Speaker 1: just in that magazine at all. So can you tell 850 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: us a little bit about about this. Oh God, yeah, 851 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: the dildo fiat so like it was. It was so 852 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,400 Speaker 1: I don't even remember. I don't even remember what happened, 853 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: Like I remember, I remember having a conversation where I 854 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,799 Speaker 1: was like, because I think I was in a lot 855 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: of ways very conservative, um in terms of what we 856 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: were doing, Like I have always been sort of a pessimist. 857 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: So I'm pretty sure that I did not see that 858 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:30,000 Speaker 1: ad before it went to press, because I feel positive 859 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,879 Speaker 1: that I would have been like, uh, we shouldn't do this. 860 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,760 Speaker 1: It's like, we're going to get in trouble. But maybe 861 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: I I don't know, maybe I was preoccupied. Maybe I 862 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 1: did see like the picture of the giant purple dildo 863 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: and I was like, cool, carry on, Um was it? 864 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was Babe Land or whether 865 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 1: it was I don't remember what the company it was. 866 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: But you know, one of the regular sort of advertisers 867 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,359 Speaker 1: we had were female own sex Toys wars Um, and 868 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,399 Speaker 1: there were there were like a growing number at that time. Um. 869 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,879 Speaker 1: And so this issue went to press and the back 870 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: cover was, you know, a picture of sort of a 871 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:18,360 Speaker 1: woman's uh crotch and her hand holding a dildo next 872 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:25,240 Speaker 1: to it. And pretty much as soon as the files 873 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 1: got to the printer, we realized that, like there was 874 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: going to be a problem because the printer was like, uh, 875 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:44,799 Speaker 1: y'all want to rethink this silbo Yeah, and so um, 876 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: it just it just absolutely sort of exploded. I mean 877 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: we we heard from uh subscribers, we heard from parents 878 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,240 Speaker 1: of subscribers, we heard from educators, We heard from people 879 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,319 Speaker 1: who were like, God, you guys, now I can't read 880 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: my issue of Bitch on the Subway, which you know, 881 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,560 Speaker 1: we took very seriously, but um, but it was it 882 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: wasn't until the postal Service got involved that that we 883 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,960 Speaker 1: were like, oh no, this could actually really sink us. 884 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,320 Speaker 1: Because what happens when there's something that the postal service 885 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 1: deems obscene on your magazine cover back cover? You have 886 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 1: to pay to have the rest of the issues polly 887 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,640 Speaker 1: bagged um. And it's it can get really expensive when 888 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: you're sending out, you know, thousands of copies to to 889 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,200 Speaker 1: pay to have each one polly bagged um. And it 890 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,640 Speaker 1: was you know, we were worried about losing our you know, 891 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,680 Speaker 1: bulk mail license, our media mail license. You know. It 892 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:50,320 Speaker 1: was a it was a really interesting time because we 893 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,480 Speaker 1: were really finding out sort of the limits of uh 894 00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of progressivism and independent content. And you know, obviously 895 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: the postal service that's a government organization. We should have 896 00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,719 Speaker 1: expected that, but I was, I was. I ended up 897 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:12,719 Speaker 1: being really surprised by how many subscribers, uh, you know, 898 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:19,080 Speaker 1: who were on board before. We're like, you know, I 899 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,319 Speaker 1: I just don't want to have to explain to my 900 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,640 Speaker 1: child what this is, or like I just don't want 901 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: my parents to you know, see this and associated with me. 902 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 1: And I fully understand all of that, I absolutely do, 903 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: but it was it was really interesting. I was like, yeah, 904 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,160 Speaker 1: you can call a magazine bitch, and you can have 905 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, very explicitly feminist content, but there is always 906 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: going to be a line in the sand, it seems 907 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:49,840 Speaker 1: like for people, and for a lot of people, that 908 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: line in the sand was you know, a huge purple dildo. 909 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 1: That that might be my favorite sentence ever uttered on 910 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,880 Speaker 1: this podcast. For a lot of the line in the 911 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:07,000 Speaker 1: sand was a purple dildo. It's pretty excellent. Meanwhile, I 912 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: took pictures of this, this magazine that I was talking about. 913 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:16,719 Speaker 1: It was whatever Works, just for like everyone's oh the 914 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,200 Speaker 1: dildos are purple. Okay, you can't see this in the studio, 915 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,000 Speaker 1: but Andie is showing me the spread of the whatever 916 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 1: Works magazine and it's it's well the art of tease me. Um, 917 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: just just quite the spread. Well, we'll add it to 918 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 1: the show notes more like that. I'm sorry, amazing, I 919 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: had to document it. That's quite the magazine to flip 920 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,799 Speaker 1: through with your whatever works. Also good good title for 921 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 1: a magazine, the spread about dildos. Whatever works exactly. Whatever Works. 922 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,239 Speaker 1: So Andy Bitch has gone from a zine to a 923 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,279 Speaker 1: magazine to now a nonprofit So what does what does 924 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 1: Bitch look like? Today? Wow? Um, well we are yeah, 925 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,000 Speaker 1: we are a nonprofit organization. Um. We have managed to 926 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,880 Speaker 1: really weather a lot of um, the kind of both 927 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:22,440 Speaker 1: magazine industry downturns and you know sort of feminists you know, 928 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,920 Speaker 1: sort of the sort of growing pains of being a 929 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 1: feminist organization in a time when feminism uh is really 930 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:37,760 Speaker 1: contested as really active is you know, becoming really popular 931 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,120 Speaker 1: and so um right now we are just trying to, 932 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, sort of do everything we do the best 933 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,840 Speaker 1: we can do it with what we have, and so 934 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: we still publish a quarterly magazine. We have a very 935 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: active website. We have two podcasts that we publish. We 936 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,560 Speaker 1: have a program called Bitch on Campus that brings speakers 937 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:12,440 Speaker 1: from from bitch Uh to colleges and universities all over 938 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: North America and also works with professors and women's studies 939 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: and communications departments to bring material from Bitch into the classroom. 940 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: We have a new editor in chief, Yvette Dion, who's wonderful. 941 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:33,160 Speaker 1: We have a Director of Community, which we didn't have 942 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 1: until about two years ago. We've really been able to 943 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,720 Speaker 1: expand in in ways that I, you know, in all 944 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,000 Speaker 1: my sort of pie in the sky idealism of twenty 945 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:51,480 Speaker 1: years ago really would not have imagined. And we have 946 00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:57,360 Speaker 1: sort of built a community of people who to whom 947 00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,840 Speaker 1: we feel accountable. And I think that's part of being 948 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,360 Speaker 1: a reader supported organization is that you know, you learn 949 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,480 Speaker 1: that your readers have a stake in what you do, 950 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,440 Speaker 1: and that you have a responsibility to them, not to 951 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, do everything they want, but to you know, 952 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:19,520 Speaker 1: hear their concerns and listen to what they think is 953 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:26,760 Speaker 1: important and that kind of uh symbiotic relationship has been 954 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful for us. And we feel really really lucky 955 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,680 Speaker 1: that we are still here and that we're still able 956 00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,880 Speaker 1: to do the work that we do. Well you, I mean, 957 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: I feel lucky that you're still out there doing so 958 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 1: much great work like we we we're lucky to have 959 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,760 Speaker 1: such an amazing resource for current feminists, for budding feminists, 960 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:53,720 Speaker 1: for all of us. So so thank you so much 961 00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:59,400 Speaker 1: for um, you know, starting this beautiful, messy, hilarious, amazing thing. 962 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,000 Speaker 1: And thank so much for being here on the podcast today. Yes, 963 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,600 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. This was really fun. So Andy, 964 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,160 Speaker 1: where can folks find out more about what you're up to. Well, 965 01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: bitch media dot org is a great place to start 966 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,280 Speaker 1: for for you know, bitch what we do, our programs, 967 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:20,919 Speaker 1: who we are, etcetera. Um, bitch Media on Twitter, we're 968 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: very active and uh we try to really highlight not 969 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,560 Speaker 1: just what we do, but you know, sort of the 970 01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 1: the world of intersectional feminist media. Um, I'm personally at 971 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,600 Speaker 1: Andy Zeisler on Twitter and uh yeah, I do a 972 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of complaining on the internet, don't we all. Thanks 973 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:50,479 Speaker 1: again for being here, Andy, Yeah, that was so cool. 974 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm so glad we got to do that and we 975 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: got to look a little bit more into bridgets journey 976 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,160 Speaker 1: into feminism and speaking of we would love to hear 977 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,960 Speaker 1: from you list nerds, what was your journey into feminism 978 01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,480 Speaker 1: like and what was there any piece of media or 979 01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:10,880 Speaker 1: any specific saying that helped you on this journey. We 980 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,000 Speaker 1: were thinking about doing some follow up episodes and looking 981 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 1: into your responses, so please, please please let us know. 982 01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at a stuff mom 983 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 1: Never told you. You can find us on Twitter at 984 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, and we love hearing from you an 985 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,640 Speaker 1: email that is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. 986 01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. Please let us know 987 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: what your journey to feminism was like.