WEBVTT - Is This A Breaking Point for Palestinian Israelis? 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.756 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background to show 0:00:23.756 --> 0:00:27.036 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.396 --> 0:00:32.316 I'm Noah Feldman. This May, the Israel Palestine conflict erupted 0:00:32.596 --> 0:00:35.756 into the most serious violence that we've seen in some years. 0:00:36.516 --> 0:00:39.836 Over the course of several weeks, Hamas and the Israeli 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:44.516 Army traded rocket fire and missile fire, while simultaneously, and 0:00:44.636 --> 0:00:48.076 for the first time in many years, riots broke out 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:54.116 between Israeli Jews and Israeli Palestinian Arabs within Israel itself. 0:00:54.876 --> 0:00:57.716 By the time a ceasefire was declared, more than three 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:02.756 hundred people had died, most of them Palestinian. The issues 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:07.276 behind this conflict are complex, and in particular, it's important 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:11.036 to notice and to try to understand why this particular 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:16.436 round of violence spilled over into conflict between Israelis and 0:01:16.476 --> 0:01:20.836 Palestinians within Israel, including within mixed cities within the country 0:01:20.996 --> 0:01:24.876 that have historically been very peaceful and have been treated 0:01:24.876 --> 0:01:29.876 by some observers as models of coexistence. These issues are 0:01:29.916 --> 0:01:33.676 complex and political, but they're also legal. Since one of 0:01:33.716 --> 0:01:37.156 the catalysts of this outbreak of violence was a property 0:01:37.196 --> 0:01:42.156 conflict in a neighborhood of Jerusalem called Czech Jarrah. Getting 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:46.996 inside these complicated issues is never easy. But today, in 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:49.396 order to take a first crack at some of them, 0:01:49.876 --> 0:01:52.996 I'm happy to introduce you to a special guest. You 0:01:53.076 --> 0:01:55.316 may not have heard his name before, but I am 0:01:55.396 --> 0:01:59.116 looking forward to introducing you to him. Rabbia Albaria is 0:01:59.156 --> 0:02:02.236 a Palestinian Israeli who's currently a doctoral student at the 0:02:02.236 --> 0:02:04.916 Harvard Law School. He is quite simply one of the 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:08.596 most brilliant students I've ever taught in twenty years as 0:02:08.676 --> 0:02:12.036 a law professor. Before coming to Harvard, he was a 0:02:12.076 --> 0:02:15.156 civil rights attorney with Adalla, the Legal Center for our 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:19.236 minority rights in Israel. In that capacity, he argued important 0:02:19.276 --> 0:02:22.516 cases before the Israeli Supreme Court, and he's also published 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:27.236 fascinating and path breaking scholarship about the experience of Palestinians 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:32.836 living in Israel as citizens. As you'll shortly hear, Robbia 0:02:32.956 --> 0:02:36.876 has a distinctive voice and a distinctive perspective, both personally 0:02:36.876 --> 0:02:40.956 and analytically on the conflict, and I'm very pleased that 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:50.396 he was able to join us here on deep background. Rabia, 0:02:50.516 --> 0:02:53.276 thank you so much for joining me before we dive 0:02:53.276 --> 0:02:55.996 into our substance. I just want to begin by asking 0:02:55.996 --> 0:02:59.836 you how your family back home in Haifa are doing. 0:02:59.916 --> 0:03:02.596 Is everybody okay? Thank you for having me. No, I 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:05.716 am doing fine. I've been going through all the recent 0:03:05.756 --> 0:03:10.076 events watching from the US. But my families in Haifa 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:13.196 and they are currently fine, but it has been really 0:03:13.236 --> 0:03:17.676 hard times. Did they see or directly experience any of 0:03:17.676 --> 0:03:22.356 the violence that took place. My sister actually lives a 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:26.556 nearer neighborhood called the German Colony in Haifa, and there 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:29.876 has been a lot of Jewish supremacist moths that were 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:35.156 roaming the streets, and so they were hearing the moths 0:03:35.236 --> 0:03:38.596 from their house while they were basically locked in their 0:03:38.596 --> 0:03:43.396 house for about two days. And in your memory and 0:03:43.436 --> 0:03:47.556 your living memory, has anything like this happened in Haifa before. 0:03:47.596 --> 0:03:50.196 It's a city that's often held up as a model 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:55.196 of mutual tolerance between Palestinian citizens of Israel and Jewish 0:03:55.236 --> 0:03:59.236 citizens of Israel. Well, not in my lifetime that I remember. 0:03:59.316 --> 0:04:02.756 I'm obviously I want to say that I'm critical of 0:04:02.876 --> 0:04:06.196 this term of coexistence that is used many times to 0:04:06.316 --> 0:04:10.276 portray Haifa, and we can delve into that, but this 0:04:10.556 --> 0:04:15.516 eruption of violence to this extent, both by private actors, 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:20.436 by mobs and by state sanctions, violence is something unprecedented. 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:27.036 Let's take a step back and define terms for listeners 0:04:27.116 --> 0:04:32.596 who engage the question of Israel and Palestine. Let's say episodically, 0:04:32.676 --> 0:04:35.316 you know, in the moments when the media engages it. 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:41.396 So let's start with just definitions. There are Palestinians who 0:04:41.436 --> 0:04:45.316 identify as Palestinians, are ethnically Palestine or nationally Palestinians, but 0:04:45.396 --> 0:04:48.396 are simultaneously citizens of the State of Israel. And then 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.036 there are Palestinians who live in the West Bank and 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:54.916 in Gaza who are Palestinians but are not citizens of Israel. 0:04:54.956 --> 0:04:58.276 And then there are even more Palestinians who live outside 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:01.836 of those places, who are legally identified as refugees, who 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:05.756 are also not citizens of Israel. What are roughly ballpark 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:09.756 the numbers order of magnitude of each these groups, to 0:05:09.836 --> 0:05:13.036 remind to remind people roughly how many citizens of Israel 0:05:13.076 --> 0:05:17.076 identify as Palestinian. Okay, So, actually this is a great question. 0:05:17.156 --> 0:05:19.796 I usually when I try to explain, you know, what 0:05:19.956 --> 0:05:22.516 is the situation, I use the metaphor of a hand 0:05:22.556 --> 0:05:26.556 five parts, and there is five different groups of Palestinians. Basically, 0:05:26.636 --> 0:05:31.196 as you mentioned, there's Palestinian citizens of Israel, which are 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:35.036 amount to about twenty percent more or less of the 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:40.116 Israeli population. Of the Israeli people who have citizenship. In numbers, 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:43.996 we're talking about somewhere between one point eight million to 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.876 two million, depends how you count. Because there is the 0:05:47.916 --> 0:05:54.436 second category of residents, which applies only to East Jerusalem Palestinians, 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:57.396 and it's a different legal status, very similar to citizenship, 0:05:57.476 --> 0:06:00.916 but with a lot of reservations. For example, people with 0:06:00.996 --> 0:06:04.236 residency cannot vote, and the residency can be revoked and 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:07.756 effectively people will be banned from living in East Jerusalem. 0:06:07.876 --> 0:06:10.396 There's palestins in the West Bank, and there is Palestinians 0:06:10.396 --> 0:06:13.036 in Gaza Strip, which is categories three and four, and 0:06:13.076 --> 0:06:16.396 the fifth and last categories, as you mentioned, is refugees. Now, 0:06:16.716 --> 0:06:20.876 as for numbers research, it's been consistently shown that since 0:06:20.916 --> 0:06:24.556 the nineties, there's been an increase actually of Palestinians that 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:28.876 identifies Palestinians despite having Israeli citizenship, and we're talking about 0:06:29.156 --> 0:06:32.636 roughly sixty percent of the population that clearly uses the 0:06:33.076 --> 0:06:38.836 term Palestinian in their identity. Sixty percent of which population 0:06:38.916 --> 0:06:42.876 the Palestinians citizens of Israel. I say so by implication, 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:46.396 that means there are say forty percent of people who 0:06:46.436 --> 0:06:49.556 are ethnically or nationally Palestinian are citizens of Israel, but 0:06:49.636 --> 0:06:52.836 don't use the term Palestinian to describe themselves, right, what 0:06:53.276 --> 0:06:55.556 terms would they use to describe themselves? So there is 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:57.956 actually a variety of terms here that are at play. 0:06:57.996 --> 0:07:00.716 You know, many people are familiar with the term Arab Israelis, 0:07:01.196 --> 0:07:03.636 and I think it's it's important to discuss this and 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:06.716 put it on the table. It's actually a term. There 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:11.036 was an official term used by Israel to to describe 0:07:11.116 --> 0:07:16.876 the Palestinian or Arab Palestinian minority with citizenship inside Israel. 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:19.916 But it's been a little bit deceiving because it's a 0:07:19.996 --> 0:07:25.156 official terminology that was imposed on many Palestinians after the 0:07:25.276 --> 0:07:29.156 establishment of Israel. Now people might use a variety of 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:32.836 other terms. It doesn't necessarily have to be either Palestinian 0:07:32.956 --> 0:07:35.716 or Arab Israelis. Some people say, for example, they are 0:07:35.756 --> 0:07:39.116 forty eight Palestinians or forty eight Arabs, which is a 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:42.636 term translated from Arabic. Actually to refer to people who 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:46.236 stayed in the land of nineteen forty eight after the 0:07:46.356 --> 0:07:49.236 establishment of Israel after the Nakada, which is a term 0:07:49.436 --> 0:07:53.516 referring to the Palestinian catastrophe. Literally, it means catastrophe by 0:07:53.556 --> 0:07:57.556 the establishment of the state of Israel in nineteen forty eight. Now, 0:07:57.756 --> 0:08:01.116 other terms can be simply an Arab. Many people refer 0:08:01.196 --> 0:08:07.116 to themselves as Arabs. In the Israeli discourse. Arabs are 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:11.916 distinguished somewhat from Estinians. This is an important distinction because 0:08:11.956 --> 0:08:17.116 I think the Arab is sometimes invoked to erase the 0:08:17.676 --> 0:08:22.436 Palestinian identity or or marginalize the Palestinian identity. So some 0:08:22.476 --> 0:08:25.596 people may refer to themselves as Arabs, which is the 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:29.836 wider category. Others may emphasize the Arab Israeli. Some would 0:08:29.876 --> 0:08:33.916 say only Palestinians, some would say Palestinian citizens of Israel, 0:08:34.156 --> 0:08:38.076 so it varies. Now. The reason I'm asking about these 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:42.796 terminological issues is that they have a deep significance, and 0:08:43.116 --> 0:08:46.876 that team significance is especially noteworthy now because they go 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:51.796 to the question of the relationship in mind and in 0:08:51.956 --> 0:08:56.236 identity between Palestinian citizens of Israel and the rest of 0:08:56.276 --> 0:09:00.796 the Palestinian population and Palestinian citizens of Israel and the 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:04.756 State of Israel. They raise the question of what are 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:09.036 the political identifications, the national identifications, and the political loyalty 0:09:09.796 --> 0:09:14.316 of Palestinian citizens of Israel, which are necessarily complicated, and 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:18.516 in Israel there is an ongoing discourse in which some 0:09:19.036 --> 0:09:23.396 Jewish Israelis insist that Palestinian Israeli citizens are full equal 0:09:23.436 --> 0:09:26.476 citizens of the State of Israel and should be treated 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:29.436 as such, and other Jewish Israelis insist to the contrary, 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:32.916 that Palestinian citizens of Israel are necessarily subject to dual 0:09:32.956 --> 0:09:38.196 loyalties are not fully therefore loyal citizens of the State 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:42.076 of Israel, and that's used often as a justification for, 0:09:42.076 --> 0:09:46.956 for example, refusing to include Arab parties in Israel in 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:50.396 the coalition that becomes the ruling coalition of government, or 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:55.356 other even more formalized practices of treating Palestinian Israelis as 0:09:55.396 --> 0:09:58.596 though they're not full citizens of the state. This is 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:02.676 incredibly complicated, obviously, but say a word about how you 0:10:02.756 --> 0:10:09.516 think of Palestinian Israeli identity and citizenship, maybe just speaking yourself, 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:12.276 since as you say, it's hard to make statistical analysis 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:15.636 of what most people think. Yeah, that's a great question, 0:10:15.676 --> 0:10:20.716 and obviously it's it's it's multifaceted, right, So I think 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:24.876 that generally speaking, and I'm obviously speaking myself, I personally 0:10:24.956 --> 0:10:28.036 identify as a Palestinian or a Palestinian citizen of Israel, 0:10:28.076 --> 0:10:31.636 depending on context. I think that the status of Palestina 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:36.396 Israel is really complex, but at the same time it 0:10:36.436 --> 0:10:40.156 can be summarized as very clearly as a subclass. So 0:10:40.356 --> 0:10:45.236 it's it's a second tier citizenship, and it manifests really 0:10:45.276 --> 0:10:49.636 in almost every aspect of life in Israel. It's important 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:53.636 to understand that most Palestinian citizens of Israel live in 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:59.156 separate localities. There are few what's called mixed cities in 0:10:59.196 --> 0:11:03.116 which Palestinians and Jewish communities live side by side, for 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:07.836 example in Haifa, where I come from. But most Palestinative 0:11:07.916 --> 0:11:12.196 in segregated towns or in separate localities, and they suffer 0:11:12.876 --> 0:11:17.196 from There is a clear infrastructure problem, There's a clear 0:11:17.236 --> 0:11:22.996 discrimination in allocation of resources. There is a clear poverty problem. 0:11:23.076 --> 0:11:27.156 More than fifty percent of Palestinus are considered below poverty line. 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:29.916 There is a huge problem with crime that is now 0:11:29.956 --> 0:11:35.196 proliferating among Palestinian society in Israel. And on top of 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:38.636 all that or could be as understood as a result 0:11:38.716 --> 0:11:44.316 of institutional policies that discriminate against Palestinians and that subjugate 0:11:44.396 --> 0:11:48.436 them to an inferior status enshrined also by law. I mean, 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:52.756 the recent developments from research years we've been seeing is, 0:11:53.036 --> 0:11:57.316 for example, the enactment of a constitutional amendment the nation 0:11:57.396 --> 0:12:02.916 state law that quite simply or straightforwardly define the state 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:08.796 of Israel or inshrine's claims and identity of constitutional status 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:13.796 without even reaffirming it purported democratic character. And so there 0:12:13.956 --> 0:12:19.916 is a clear institutionalization that manifests in different aspects of life, 0:12:19.916 --> 0:12:25.436 from allocation of free sources to discrimination in housing that 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:29.316 affects Palestinian lives in the every day. Tell me a 0:12:29.356 --> 0:12:32.356 little bit about how you've experienced that and seen that, 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:35.196 because I mean, one of the fascinating things from the 0:12:35.236 --> 0:12:39.036 American standpoint about your education is that you have two 0:12:39.076 --> 0:12:41.276 degrees from top Israel University. Is a first degree of 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:43.716 University of Haifa than a degree in law from the 0:12:43.796 --> 0:12:45.916 University of Tel Aviv, which is often said to be 0:12:45.956 --> 0:12:50.436 the fancist law faculty in Israel. Your professors loved you. 0:12:50.476 --> 0:12:52.356 I know that because I read their recommendations when you 0:12:52.716 --> 0:12:55.036 applied to be a student at Harvard Law School. You 0:12:55.076 --> 0:12:57.076 did your master's degree at Harvard Law School. Now you're 0:12:57.116 --> 0:13:00.116 a doctoral student there, and in between finishing law school 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:02.676 in Israel and coming to the US to continue studying, 0:13:02.836 --> 0:13:04.716 you're a human rights lawyer for Adalla, one of the 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:08.756 leading human rights organizations working on Palestinian rights. You argued 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:11.276 cases in front of the Israeli Supreme Court. Obviously all 0:13:11.356 --> 0:13:15.476 this was in Hebrew. So you've been deeply in matched 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:20.156 in a series of institutions within Israel, probably through a 0:13:20.196 --> 0:13:24.596 good part of your life. How has your identity been 0:13:24.636 --> 0:13:28.476 shaped and developed by that kind of interaction in pretty 0:13:28.476 --> 0:13:33.676 elite Israeli circles. Well, that's that's an interesting question because 0:13:34.596 --> 0:13:36.836 I think, and you know, I tried to reflect on 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:39.796 these questions and some of my writings. I for example, 0:13:39.876 --> 0:13:43.276 wrote about legal education in Israeli law schools and being 0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:46.756 a Palestinian in that system. And it's a highly, highly 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:51.196 complex situation because many Palestinians are coming to these Israeli 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:55.316 elite circles or institutions and experienced a deep sense of 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:59.396 alienation going through these experiences, we're using a language that 0:13:59.556 --> 0:14:02.196 is not ours. I was born and raised, you know, 0:14:02.356 --> 0:14:06.036 speaking Arabic, and I went to school in Arabic until 0:14:06.076 --> 0:14:10.156 I reach university, which is the trual path for any 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:13.636 Palestinian defending Israel. Now, perhaps you know, I grew up 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.396 in Haifa, which, as I said, is one of the 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:17.916 mixed cities, so perhaps you're exposed a little bit more 0:14:18.276 --> 0:14:22.556 to Hebrew as a language, or and you acquire certain 0:14:22.916 --> 0:14:27.676 exposure that is limited otherwise in other localities. But yes, 0:14:27.836 --> 0:14:31.196 I think it's a highly contradictory situation where you go 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:36.196 through institutions and you use a language that is not yours, 0:14:36.356 --> 0:14:39.996 and there is a language actually that many times you're 0:14:40.036 --> 0:14:43.716 experiencing it as as an oppressing language. And I'm emphasizing 0:14:43.716 --> 0:14:45.556 the idea of a language. But I think because I 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:50.196 think it's really immedium through which you realize your subjectivity 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:53.196 in the content of conversation and the terms in which 0:14:53.196 --> 0:14:56.436 the discourse is shaped. You know, when you go as 0:14:56.436 --> 0:14:59.476 a Palestinian student to an Israeli law school, one of 0:14:59.516 --> 0:15:03.076 the fancy and also sometimes described as a liberal law school, 0:15:03.876 --> 0:15:08.396 there is still a very clear limits to the discourse 0:15:08.436 --> 0:15:13.156 about how to talk about Palestinian experiences and how to 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:15.796 understand how the law works, and then we give us 0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:19.076 aecond great example. Yes, absolutely so. For example, I love 0:15:19.116 --> 0:15:21.516 to give that very quickly about law school. For example, 0:15:21.836 --> 0:15:25.396 you know, property classes. When we talk about property classes, 0:15:25.396 --> 0:15:29.116 we analyze the doctrines and confiscations, but we never touch 0:15:29.236 --> 0:15:33.716 upon how crucial this doctrine has been to Palestinian lives. 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:37.156 You know, Palestinians and israel have suffered mass expropriation of 0:15:37.156 --> 0:15:40.756 their property, of their land during the fifties, sixties and seventies. 0:15:41.356 --> 0:15:45.356 They were basically reproduced from an agricultural dependent class into 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:49.316 a low skilled, unskilled labor in the Israeli market force 0:15:49.796 --> 0:15:54.156 during these years. And this has ramifications that are very 0:15:54.196 --> 0:15:57.836 clear until and striking until this day. And so everything 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:01.116 in the class when as a Palestinian approaches law school 0:16:01.276 --> 0:16:04.716 is decontextualized many times. Other times, we never, for example, 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:07.316 touch upon the fact it's a discourse that is very 0:16:07.676 --> 0:16:12.596 present in America, for example, massive carceration and the carceral state, 0:16:12.676 --> 0:16:16.636 and trying to understand the law enforcement apparatus, how it 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:20.596 interacts with minority groups or with racial violence, and these 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:23.076 kind of topics are never talked about, and these really 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:27.396 law schools, and so this lens of looking at the 0:16:27.516 --> 0:16:31.676 law in context is very much absent many times from 0:16:31.756 --> 0:16:34.036 law schools. I would add, by the way, that I 0:16:34.036 --> 0:16:36.236 think a lot of students in American law schools would 0:16:36.276 --> 0:16:38.796 tell you that until the last decade, a lot of 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:42.316 those topics were slighted in most of American legal education too, 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:44.916 with respect to raise in the United States and particularly 0:16:44.996 --> 0:16:47.756 the history of white supremacy in the United States. But 0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:49.676 that that doesn't make it any better. I'm just noting 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:54.316 that that that's the case. So with that very helpful context, 0:16:54.356 --> 0:16:57.116 I want to turn now to really the reason that 0:16:57.156 --> 0:16:59.676 I wanted to have you on the podcast, and that 0:16:59.836 --> 0:17:05.636 is to hear more about your view about why this 0:17:05.796 --> 0:17:11.156 particular iteration of violence between Israel and Gaza, which started 0:17:11.196 --> 0:17:14.596 in certain ways that were very familiar going back at 0:17:14.716 --> 0:17:17.756 least a couple of decades and in some ways longer so. 0:17:18.156 --> 0:17:22.796 Violence in and around Jerusalem, unrest at Alaxa, the Temple 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:29.636 Mount site, rockets fired from Gaza Bahamas into Israel, retaliation 0:17:29.716 --> 0:17:33.196 from the Israeli side with air attacks in which lots 0:17:33.196 --> 0:17:36.396 of people die, including lots of civilians. This is a 0:17:36.436 --> 0:17:40.316 script that we've seen multiple times before. What seems most 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:45.956 distinctive this time is the violence perpetrated in some instances 0:17:45.996 --> 0:17:50.916 by Jewish Israelis against Palasinian Israelis, in some instances by 0:17:50.956 --> 0:17:54.636 Palasinian Israelis against Jewish Israelis in a number of different 0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:57.756 cities and places around the country, including cities that you're 0:17:57.756 --> 0:18:00.756 describing as mixed cities. So the first question I want 0:18:00.796 --> 0:18:03.636 to ask is, and it's a really hard one, why 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.276 this time? Why is this happening? In your view? Now, 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:14.916 that's an important question. I think the for understanding it, 0:18:15.916 --> 0:18:18.756 we need to zoom out a little bit and understand 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:22.196 what led to these escalations. And I think the immediate 0:18:22.836 --> 0:18:28.156 point of departure would be good. So let's let's talk 0:18:28.156 --> 0:18:31.636 about that. So that's Chechter has a neighborhood of Jerusalem 0:18:31.676 --> 0:18:35.236 in which there's been an ongoing controversy with lots of 0:18:35.276 --> 0:18:39.516 twists and turns, most recently involving a controversy that's headed 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:41.316 for the Israeli Supreme Court. In fact, it's before the 0:18:41.396 --> 0:18:44.676 Israeli Supreme Court now, involving a number of houses. Do 0:18:44.716 --> 0:18:46.756 you want to give us the legal background? No, one, 0:18:46.796 --> 0:18:48.476 no one better for then you to explain the legal 0:18:48.476 --> 0:18:50.676 backgrounds since as as a human rights layer you've worked 0:18:50.716 --> 0:18:53.036 on these kinds of cases. Yeah, so I think I 0:18:53.076 --> 0:18:56.276 think the most important to put it simply, what's happening 0:18:56.276 --> 0:18:59.356 there is that there is families, Palestinian families living in 0:18:59.436 --> 0:19:03.956 this is Jerusalem neighborhood that are now being brought to 0:19:04.036 --> 0:19:07.796 court by Jewish settler organizations. And the idea is that 0:19:08.756 --> 0:19:12.076 these these families who were resettled, part of them were 0:19:12.116 --> 0:19:17.196 resettled there in the fifties before Israel even occupied, and 0:19:17.276 --> 0:19:21.036 they were resettled because they were refugees from internally displaced 0:19:21.076 --> 0:19:25.196 from Haifa, from other places. And now these settler groups 0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:29.156 or settler organizations are trying to claim this property by 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:32.676 using a hook claiming that this property belonged to Jewish 0:19:32.716 --> 0:19:35.996 people before nineteen for eight, before the establishment of the 0:19:36.036 --> 0:19:39.596 state of Visions. So there is a complex actually legal situation. 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:44.836 But what's important to understand is that this system works 0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:48.756 with two different rules applying to do different people. Palestinians 0:19:48.796 --> 0:19:53.756 cannot try to claim property that was Palestinians before nineteen 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:58.636 forty eight. This path is only allowed for particularly in 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:02.636 East Jerusalem. For Jewish that is usually even not the 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:05.716 particular families of the Jewish people who lived in the houses, 0:20:05.716 --> 0:20:11.756 but Jewish settler and geo's or groups. And so what 0:20:11.836 --> 0:20:15.396 we're seeing here is illegal. To pause, Yeah, just to 0:20:15.436 --> 0:20:17.556 pause to clarify the legal battle for people who aren't 0:20:17.596 --> 0:20:20.116 you know, inside the inside the details of this as 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:24.396 I understand it, the position of the settler groups is 0:20:24.516 --> 0:20:29.316 that these houses were lived in by Jews before nineteen 0:20:29.316 --> 0:20:31.836 forty eight, when there was neither an Israel nor a Palestine. 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:35.996 There was a UN mandate administered by by Britain that 0:20:36.516 --> 0:20:40.436 that in nineteen forty eight this territory ended up after 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:43.956 Israel declared independence and ended up in a war with 0:20:44.116 --> 0:20:46.876 a number of its neighbors, including Jordan, ended up under 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:49.716 Jordanian control between nineteen forty eight and nineteen sixty seven. 0:20:50.236 --> 0:20:51.756 Am I right? Am I just correct me if I 0:20:51.836 --> 0:20:54.396 go wrong. I mean, and that during that period of time, 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:57.796 no Jews were permitted to or chose to stay within 0:20:57.876 --> 0:21:01.836 what had become Jordan. And at that moment Palestinians who 0:21:01.836 --> 0:21:04.356 were internally displaced from other places within what had become 0:21:04.436 --> 0:21:07.196 Israel were resettled in these homes. They've been there since, 0:21:07.636 --> 0:21:11.116 and in nineteen sixty seven Israel conquered this territory back. 0:21:11.156 --> 0:21:14.276 It's subsequently annexed the territory, although it's annexation is not 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:17.596 recognized by the international community, but it is recognized by 0:21:17.596 --> 0:21:21.596 the Israeli courts. And so in principle, under Israeli law, 0:21:21.836 --> 0:21:24.796 these homes are supposed to revert to whom Are they 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:27.996 supposed to revert to the original owners? Are they're supposed 0:21:27.996 --> 0:21:31.076 to revert to the government. Somehow they were supposed to 0:21:31.116 --> 0:21:33.396 revert to somebody, which has led to a claim on 0:21:33.476 --> 0:21:36.956 them being made by these Jewish organizations. Yes, but these 0:21:37.236 --> 0:21:40.436 legal baties have been actually happening since the seventies in 0:21:40.676 --> 0:21:44.476 Sarah and elsewhere in Jerusalem, and we're seeing that there 0:21:44.676 --> 0:21:47.676 is on one hand, while the court allows bringing these 0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:50.636 cases when and these claims by Jewish groups, it does 0:21:50.716 --> 0:21:54.996 not allow any claims by Palestinians to reclaim their property 0:21:55.076 --> 0:21:58.516 before nineteen forty eight. And this is hugely problematic because 0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:02.036 these people, part of the Czech families, were resettled there 0:22:02.236 --> 0:22:05.076 by the un by the UNWA in conduction with the 0:22:05.156 --> 0:22:09.436 Jordanian government that was back then in the fifties. That 0:22:10.196 --> 0:22:14.276 neighbor and UNROWA is the United Nations especially designated institution 0:22:14.476 --> 0:22:17.756 that essentially only deals with Palestinian refugees. I mean that's 0:22:17.796 --> 0:22:19.996 basically its job. And it has existed since forty eight 0:22:20.036 --> 0:22:23.356 and still exists, yes, and so I really think that 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:26.396 the words of the families themselves are put this very strongly, 0:22:26.476 --> 0:22:29.236 you know, they say you settled us even here. This 0:22:29.396 --> 0:22:32.356 has become a Palestinian neighborhood for generations now, I mean 0:22:32.676 --> 0:22:35.876 it was Palestinian in part as well before ninety four eight. 0:22:35.916 --> 0:22:38.236 There is no dispute that some Jews lived there, right, 0:22:39.236 --> 0:22:43.396 but the dispute becomes also more problematic when these not 0:22:43.516 --> 0:22:47.236 the exact people are claiming their their property. But under 0:22:47.356 --> 0:22:53.116 some legal constructions, it's enabled for settler, you know, organizations 0:22:53.556 --> 0:22:57.556 to advance a political agenda. And many people have seen 0:22:57.676 --> 0:23:01.276 the viral video of Jacob from the US, the settler 0:23:01.356 --> 0:23:04.356 who is now living in Czech saying, you know to 0:23:04.476 --> 0:23:07.476 the family, well, I'm not stealing your home. If I 0:23:07.556 --> 0:23:10.316 don't steal it, somebody else will. And this is part 0:23:10.356 --> 0:23:12.676 of the problem. There is people who are coming, you know, 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:16.956 Jewish settlers coming from the US part of them and 0:23:17.276 --> 0:23:20.396 settling in this neighborhood with no ties whatsoever to the 0:23:20.516 --> 0:23:23.796 particular people who are living them, and they're destroying communities 0:23:23.916 --> 0:23:29.036 and forcing evictions and etc. Et cetera un Palestinian communities. 0:23:31.156 --> 0:23:42.916 We'll be back in a moment. So the chech Jar 0:23:43.676 --> 0:23:48.356 conflict was the catalyst here to drive this latest cycle 0:23:48.396 --> 0:23:52.196 of escalation. That seems clear. How does it relate in 0:23:52.316 --> 0:23:55.676 your view to the Again this underlying question of why 0:23:56.276 --> 0:23:59.436 this violence in both directions in mixed cities, because as 0:23:59.436 --> 0:24:02.276 you point out, there's been struggle in zech Jarrah for 0:24:02.356 --> 0:24:05.556 a while, and also there have been other instances in 0:24:05.716 --> 0:24:09.916 which there was you know, rockets fired from God Israeli 0:24:10.396 --> 0:24:14.236 aircraft firing missiles, as well as in in the more 0:24:14.276 --> 0:24:17.596 distant past, Israeli troops in Gaza. So we've seen this 0:24:17.676 --> 0:24:21.356 kind of military escalation before, but without the corresponding violence 0:24:21.436 --> 0:24:25.156 within Israeli mixed cities. So I think momentum is a 0:24:25.276 --> 0:24:28.116 huge part of it, and also timing. We should understand 0:24:28.156 --> 0:24:30.796 this came against the background of Ramadan, one of the 0:24:30.876 --> 0:24:34.556 holiest months in Islam for many people who are practicing 0:24:34.596 --> 0:24:39.796 their fasting and end with aid fu so and this 0:24:40.556 --> 0:24:45.676 evictions or forced evictions from Ze came against this background 0:24:45.796 --> 0:24:48.596 and as well as that escalated to raids into Al 0:24:48.636 --> 0:24:52.356 Aksamosk to one of the holiest sites in Islam, and 0:24:52.516 --> 0:24:56.676 this sparked a lot of tensions, a lot of protests, 0:24:56.836 --> 0:25:00.956 and the protests that spread across many different Palestinian communities 0:25:00.996 --> 0:25:04.276 in Israel. First before Gaza came into the the picture 0:25:04.676 --> 0:25:08.636 where started what started as actually peaceful protests where brutally 0:25:09.196 --> 0:25:11.916 suppressed by the police. I know many of my friends 0:25:11.956 --> 0:25:17.036 who protested actually in Haifa were arrested, detained, eventually some 0:25:17.156 --> 0:25:20.996 of them released. But what started as peaceful protests soon 0:25:21.116 --> 0:25:24.956 became the police crackdown on these protests, escalating the situation 0:25:25.076 --> 0:25:30.716 even more when Jewish vigilante groups started joining this picture 0:25:30.876 --> 0:25:33.716 and killed in led. The first incidents that led really 0:25:33.756 --> 0:25:38.436 to the further escalation in violence was a settler killed 0:25:38.556 --> 0:25:41.396 in art settler Jewish settler killed and led a Palestinian 0:25:41.436 --> 0:25:45.876 citizen and was later released by the court. He was 0:25:45.956 --> 0:25:49.036 suspected in killing but then later released by the court 0:25:49.156 --> 0:25:51.876 after a lot of political pressure as well. In the background, 0:25:52.156 --> 0:25:55.836 and so this is the released on the released on 0:25:55.916 --> 0:25:58.196 the theory that he had acted in self defense. Right, 0:25:58.596 --> 0:26:00.636 And there's are, if I'm not mistaken, that's the episode 0:26:00.636 --> 0:26:02.796 of which there's a video which also has been widely 0:26:03.196 --> 0:26:06.036 widely shared on the internet, Yes, which showed actually that 0:26:06.116 --> 0:26:09.236 he's shooting from far away. But I think that this 0:26:09.876 --> 0:26:12.996