1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is deep background to show 2 00:00:23,756 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,396 --> 00:00:32,316 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This May, the Israel Palestine conflict erupted 4 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:35,756 Speaker 1: into the most serious violence that we've seen in some years. 5 00:00:36,516 --> 00:00:39,836 Speaker 1: Over the course of several weeks, Hamas and the Israeli 6 00:00:39,956 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 1: Army traded rocket fire and missile fire, while simultaneously, and 7 00:00:44,636 --> 00:00:48,076 Speaker 1: for the first time in many years, riots broke out 8 00:00:48,236 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 1: between Israeli Jews and Israeli Palestinian Arabs within Israel itself. 9 00:00:54,876 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: By the time a ceasefire was declared, more than three 10 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: hundred people had died, most of them Palestinian. The issues 11 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: behind this conflict are complex, and in particular, it's important 12 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 1: to notice and to try to understand why this particular 13 00:01:11,196 --> 00:01:16,436 Speaker 1: round of violence spilled over into conflict between Israelis and 14 00:01:16,476 --> 00:01:20,836 Speaker 1: Palestinians within Israel, including within mixed cities within the country 15 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:24,876 Speaker 1: that have historically been very peaceful and have been treated 16 00:01:24,876 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: by some observers as models of coexistence. These issues are 17 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: complex and political, but they're also legal. Since one of 18 00:01:33,716 --> 00:01:37,156 Speaker 1: the catalysts of this outbreak of violence was a property 19 00:01:37,196 --> 00:01:42,156 Speaker 1: conflict in a neighborhood of Jerusalem called Czech Jarrah. Getting 20 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:46,996 Speaker 1: inside these complicated issues is never easy. But today, in 21 00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: order to take a first crack at some of them, 22 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 1: I'm happy to introduce you to a special guest. You 23 00:01:53,076 --> 00:01:55,316 Speaker 1: may not have heard his name before, but I am 24 00:01:55,396 --> 00:01:59,116 Speaker 1: looking forward to introducing you to him. Rabbia Albaria is 25 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: a Palestinian Israeli who's currently a doctoral student at the 26 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 1: Harvard Law School. He is quite simply one of the 27 00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: most brilliant students I've ever taught in twenty years as 28 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:12,036 Speaker 1: a law professor. Before coming to Harvard, he was a 29 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,156 Speaker 1: civil rights attorney with Adalla, the Legal Center for our 30 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:19,236 Speaker 1: minority rights in Israel. In that capacity, he argued important 31 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 1: cases before the Israeli Supreme Court, and he's also published 32 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: fascinating and path breaking scholarship about the experience of Palestinians 33 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: living in Israel as citizens. As you'll shortly hear, Robbia 34 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 1: has a distinctive voice and a distinctive perspective, both personally 35 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:40,956 Speaker 1: and analytically on the conflict, and I'm very pleased that 36 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: he was able to join us here on deep background. Rabia, 37 00:02:50,516 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me before we dive 38 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:55,996 Speaker 1: into our substance. I just want to begin by asking 39 00:02:55,996 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 1: you how your family back home in Haifa are doing. 40 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: Is everybody okay? Thank you for having me. No, I 41 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 1: am doing fine. I've been going through all the recent 42 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:10,076 Speaker 1: events watching from the US. But my families in Haifa 43 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 1: and they are currently fine, but it has been really 44 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 1: hard times. Did they see or directly experience any of 45 00:03:17,676 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: the violence that took place. My sister actually lives a 46 00:03:22,636 --> 00:03:26,556 Speaker 1: nearer neighborhood called the German Colony in Haifa, and there 47 00:03:26,556 --> 00:03:29,876 Speaker 1: has been a lot of Jewish supremacist moths that were 48 00:03:29,956 --> 00:03:35,156 Speaker 1: roaming the streets, and so they were hearing the moths 49 00:03:35,236 --> 00:03:38,596 Speaker 1: from their house while they were basically locked in their 50 00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 1: house for about two days. And in your memory and 51 00:03:43,436 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 1: your living memory, has anything like this happened in Haifa before. 52 00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: It's a city that's often held up as a model 53 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 1: of mutual tolerance between Palestinian citizens of Israel and Jewish 54 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:59,236 Speaker 1: citizens of Israel. Well, not in my lifetime that I remember. 55 00:03:59,316 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: I'm obviously I want to say that I'm critical of 56 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: this term of coexistence that is used many times to 57 00:04:06,316 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 1: portray Haifa, and we can delve into that, but this 58 00:04:10,556 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 1: eruption of violence to this extent, both by private actors, 59 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:20,436 Speaker 1: by mobs and by state sanctions, violence is something unprecedented. 60 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 1: Let's take a step back and define terms for listeners 61 00:04:27,116 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 1: who engage the question of Israel and Palestine. Let's say episodically, 62 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:35,316 Speaker 1: you know, in the moments when the media engages it. 63 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 1: So let's start with just definitions. There are Palestinians who 64 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:45,316 Speaker 1: identify as Palestinians, are ethnically Palestine or nationally Palestinians, but 65 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:48,396 Speaker 1: are simultaneously citizens of the State of Israel. And then 66 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 1: there are Palestinians who live in the West Bank and 67 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:54,916 Speaker 1: in Gaza who are Palestinians but are not citizens of Israel. 68 00:04:54,956 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: And then there are even more Palestinians who live outside 69 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: of those places, who are legally identified as refugees, who 70 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:05,756 Speaker 1: are also not citizens of Israel. What are roughly ballpark 71 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: the numbers order of magnitude of each these groups, to 72 00:05:09,836 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 1: remind to remind people roughly how many citizens of Israel 73 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: identify as Palestinian. Okay, So, actually this is a great question. 74 00:05:17,156 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: I usually when I try to explain, you know, what 75 00:05:19,956 --> 00:05:22,516 Speaker 1: is the situation, I use the metaphor of a hand 76 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 1: five parts, and there is five different groups of Palestinians. Basically, 77 00:05:26,636 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, there's Palestinian citizens of Israel, which are 78 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: amount to about twenty percent more or less of the 79 00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:40,116 Speaker 1: Israeli population. Of the Israeli people who have citizenship. In numbers, 80 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 1: we're talking about somewhere between one point eight million to 81 00:05:44,076 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 1: two million, depends how you count. Because there is the 82 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: second category of residents, which applies only to East Jerusalem Palestinians, 83 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: and it's a different legal status, very similar to citizenship, 84 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:00,916 Speaker 1: but with a lot of reservations. For example, people with 85 00:06:00,996 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: residency cannot vote, and the residency can be revoked and 86 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,756 Speaker 1: effectively people will be banned from living in East Jerusalem. 87 00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: There's palestins in the West Bank, and there is Palestinians 88 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:13,036 Speaker 1: in Gaza Strip, which is categories three and four, and 89 00:06:13,076 --> 00:06:16,396 Speaker 1: the fifth and last categories, as you mentioned, is refugees. Now, 90 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:20,876 Speaker 1: as for numbers research, it's been consistently shown that since 91 00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: the nineties, there's been an increase actually of Palestinians that 92 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 1: identifies Palestinians despite having Israeli citizenship, and we're talking about 93 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 1: roughly sixty percent of the population that clearly uses the 94 00:06:33,076 --> 00:06:38,836 Speaker 1: term Palestinian in their identity. Sixty percent of which population 95 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 1: the Palestinians citizens of Israel. I say so by implication, 96 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:46,396 Speaker 1: that means there are say forty percent of people who 97 00:06:46,436 --> 00:06:49,556 Speaker 1: are ethnically or nationally Palestinian are citizens of Israel, but 98 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 1: don't use the term Palestinian to describe themselves, right, what 99 00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 1: terms would they use to describe themselves? So there is 100 00:06:55,556 --> 00:06:57,956 Speaker 1: actually a variety of terms here that are at play. 101 00:06:57,996 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 1: You know, many people are familiar with the term Arab Israelis, 102 00:07:01,196 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 1: and I think it's it's important to discuss this and 103 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:06,716 Speaker 1: put it on the table. It's actually a term. There 104 00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:11,036 Speaker 1: was an official term used by Israel to to describe 105 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:16,876 Speaker 1: the Palestinian or Arab Palestinian minority with citizenship inside Israel. 106 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:19,916 Speaker 1: But it's been a little bit deceiving because it's a 107 00:07:19,996 --> 00:07:25,156 Speaker 1: official terminology that was imposed on many Palestinians after the 108 00:07:25,276 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 1: establishment of Israel. Now people might use a variety of 109 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:32,836 Speaker 1: other terms. It doesn't necessarily have to be either Palestinian 110 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: or Arab Israelis. Some people say, for example, they are 111 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:39,116 Speaker 1: forty eight Palestinians or forty eight Arabs, which is a 112 00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:42,636 Speaker 1: term translated from Arabic. Actually to refer to people who 113 00:07:42,756 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 1: stayed in the land of nineteen forty eight after the 114 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:49,236 Speaker 1: establishment of Israel after the Nakada, which is a term 115 00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 1: referring to the Palestinian catastrophe. Literally, it means catastrophe by 116 00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 1: the establishment of the state of Israel in nineteen forty eight. Now, 117 00:07:57,756 --> 00:08:01,116 Speaker 1: other terms can be simply an Arab. Many people refer 118 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: to themselves as Arabs. In the Israeli discourse. Arabs are 119 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:11,916 Speaker 1: distinguished somewhat from Estinians. This is an important distinction because 120 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:17,116 Speaker 1: I think the Arab is sometimes invoked to erase the 121 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 1: Palestinian identity or or marginalize the Palestinian identity. So some 122 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: people may refer to themselves as Arabs, which is the 123 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:29,836 Speaker 1: wider category. Others may emphasize the Arab Israeli. Some would 124 00:08:29,876 --> 00:08:33,916 Speaker 1: say only Palestinians, some would say Palestinian citizens of Israel, 125 00:08:34,156 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: so it varies. Now. The reason I'm asking about these 126 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: terminological issues is that they have a deep significance, and 127 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:46,876 Speaker 1: that team significance is especially noteworthy now because they go 128 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:51,796 Speaker 1: to the question of the relationship in mind and in 129 00:08:51,956 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 1: identity between Palestinian citizens of Israel and the rest of 130 00:08:56,276 --> 00:09:00,796 Speaker 1: the Palestinian population and Palestinian citizens of Israel and the 131 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:04,756 Speaker 1: State of Israel. They raise the question of what are 132 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:09,036 Speaker 1: the political identifications, the national identifications, and the political loyalty 133 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: of Palestinian citizens of Israel, which are necessarily complicated, and 134 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:18,516 Speaker 1: in Israel there is an ongoing discourse in which some 135 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: Jewish Israelis insist that Palestinian Israeli citizens are full equal 136 00:09:23,436 --> 00:09:26,476 Speaker 1: citizens of the State of Israel and should be treated 137 00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:29,436 Speaker 1: as such, and other Jewish Israelis insist to the contrary, 138 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:32,916 Speaker 1: that Palestinian citizens of Israel are necessarily subject to dual 139 00:09:32,956 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 1: loyalties are not fully therefore loyal citizens of the State 140 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 1: of Israel, and that's used often as a justification for, 141 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 1: for example, refusing to include Arab parties in Israel in 142 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:50,396 Speaker 1: the coalition that becomes the ruling coalition of government, or 143 00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 1: other even more formalized practices of treating Palestinian Israelis as 144 00:09:55,396 --> 00:09:58,596 Speaker 1: though they're not full citizens of the state. This is 145 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:02,676 Speaker 1: incredibly complicated, obviously, but say a word about how you 146 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:09,516 Speaker 1: think of Palestinian Israeli identity and citizenship, maybe just speaking yourself, 147 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 1: since as you say, it's hard to make statistical analysis 148 00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:15,636 Speaker 1: of what most people think. Yeah, that's a great question, 149 00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:20,716 Speaker 1: and obviously it's it's it's multifaceted, right, So I think 150 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:24,876 Speaker 1: that generally speaking, and I'm obviously speaking myself, I personally 151 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,036 Speaker 1: identify as a Palestinian or a Palestinian citizen of Israel, 152 00:10:28,076 --> 00:10:31,636 Speaker 1: depending on context. I think that the status of Palestina 153 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:36,396 Speaker 1: Israel is really complex, but at the same time it 154 00:10:36,436 --> 00:10:40,156 Speaker 1: can be summarized as very clearly as a subclass. So 155 00:10:40,356 --> 00:10:45,236 Speaker 1: it's it's a second tier citizenship, and it manifests really 156 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: in almost every aspect of life in Israel. It's important 157 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: to understand that most Palestinian citizens of Israel live in 158 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:59,156 Speaker 1: separate localities. There are few what's called mixed cities in 159 00:10:59,196 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 1: which Palestinians and Jewish communities live side by side, for 160 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: example in Haifa, where I come from. But most Palestinative 161 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:12,196 Speaker 1: in segregated towns or in separate localities, and they suffer 162 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: from There is a clear infrastructure problem, There's a clear 163 00:11:17,236 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: discrimination in allocation of resources. There is a clear poverty problem. 164 00:11:23,076 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 1: More than fifty percent of Palestinus are considered below poverty line. 165 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: There is a huge problem with crime that is now 166 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:35,196 Speaker 1: proliferating among Palestinian society in Israel. And on top of 167 00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 1: all that or could be as understood as a result 168 00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 1: of institutional policies that discriminate against Palestinians and that subjugate 169 00:11:44,396 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 1: them to an inferior status enshrined also by law. I mean, 170 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 1: the recent developments from research years we've been seeing is, 171 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:57,316 Speaker 1: for example, the enactment of a constitutional amendment the nation 172 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 1: state law that quite simply or straightforwardly define the state 173 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 1: of Israel or inshrine's claims and identity of constitutional status 174 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 1: without even reaffirming it purported democratic character. And so there 175 00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:19,916 Speaker 1: is a clear institutionalization that manifests in different aspects of life, 176 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: from allocation of free sources to discrimination in housing that 177 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 1: affects Palestinian lives in the every day. Tell me a 178 00:12:29,356 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 1: little bit about how you've experienced that and seen that, 179 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: because I mean, one of the fascinating things from the 180 00:12:35,236 --> 00:12:39,036 Speaker 1: American standpoint about your education is that you have two 181 00:12:39,076 --> 00:12:41,276 Speaker 1: degrees from top Israel University. Is a first degree of 182 00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 1: University of Haifa than a degree in law from the 183 00:12:43,796 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: University of Tel Aviv, which is often said to be 184 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:50,436 Speaker 1: the fancist law faculty in Israel. Your professors loved you. 185 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 1: I know that because I read their recommendations when you 186 00:12:52,716 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: applied to be a student at Harvard Law School. You 187 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 1: did your master's degree at Harvard Law School. Now you're 188 00:12:57,116 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: a doctoral student there, and in between finishing law school 189 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: in Israel and coming to the US to continue studying, 190 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:04,716 Speaker 1: you're a human rights lawyer for Adalla, one of the 191 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: leading human rights organizations working on Palestinian rights. You argued 192 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:11,276 Speaker 1: cases in front of the Israeli Supreme Court. Obviously all 193 00:13:11,356 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: this was in Hebrew. So you've been deeply in matched 194 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 1: in a series of institutions within Israel, probably through a 195 00:13:20,196 --> 00:13:24,596 Speaker 1: good part of your life. How has your identity been 196 00:13:24,636 --> 00:13:28,476 Speaker 1: shaped and developed by that kind of interaction in pretty 197 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:33,676 Speaker 1: elite Israeli circles. Well, that's that's an interesting question because 198 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: I think, and you know, I tried to reflect on 199 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: these questions and some of my writings. I for example, 200 00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 1: wrote about legal education in Israeli law schools and being 201 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 1: a Palestinian in that system. And it's a highly, highly 202 00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 1: complex situation because many Palestinians are coming to these Israeli 203 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 1: elite circles or institutions and experienced a deep sense of 204 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: alienation going through these experiences, we're using a language that 205 00:13:59,556 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 1: is not ours. I was born and raised, you know, 206 00:14:02,356 --> 00:14:06,036 Speaker 1: speaking Arabic, and I went to school in Arabic until 207 00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:10,156 Speaker 1: I reach university, which is the trual path for any 208 00:14:10,196 --> 00:14:13,636 Speaker 1: Palestinian defending Israel. Now, perhaps you know, I grew up 209 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 1: in Haifa, which, as I said, is one of the 210 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:17,916 Speaker 1: mixed cities, so perhaps you're exposed a little bit more 211 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:22,556 Speaker 1: to Hebrew as a language, or and you acquire certain 212 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: exposure that is limited otherwise in other localities. But yes, 213 00:14:27,836 --> 00:14:31,196 Speaker 1: I think it's a highly contradictory situation where you go 214 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:36,196 Speaker 1: through institutions and you use a language that is not yours, 215 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 1: and there is a language actually that many times you're 216 00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:43,716 Speaker 1: experiencing it as as an oppressing language. And I'm emphasizing 217 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: the idea of a language. But I think because I 218 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:50,196 Speaker 1: think it's really immedium through which you realize your subjectivity 219 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: in the content of conversation and the terms in which 220 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:56,436 Speaker 1: the discourse is shaped. You know, when you go as 221 00:14:56,436 --> 00:14:59,476 Speaker 1: a Palestinian student to an Israeli law school, one of 222 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 1: the fancy and also sometimes described as a liberal law school, 223 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: there is still a very clear limits to the discourse 224 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:13,156 Speaker 1: about how to talk about Palestinian experiences and how to 225 00:15:13,276 --> 00:15:15,796 Speaker 1: understand how the law works, and then we give us 226 00:15:15,796 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 1: aecond great example. Yes, absolutely so. For example, I love 227 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: to give that very quickly about law school. For example, 228 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 1: you know, property classes. When we talk about property classes, 229 00:15:25,396 --> 00:15:29,116 Speaker 1: we analyze the doctrines and confiscations, but we never touch 230 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 1: upon how crucial this doctrine has been to Palestinian lives. 231 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 1: You know, Palestinians and israel have suffered mass expropriation of 232 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: their property, of their land during the fifties, sixties and seventies. 233 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:45,356 Speaker 1: They were basically reproduced from an agricultural dependent class into 234 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:49,316 Speaker 1: a low skilled, unskilled labor in the Israeli market force 235 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 1: during these years. And this has ramifications that are very 236 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 1: clear until and striking until this day. And so everything 237 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 1: in the class when as a Palestinian approaches law school 238 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: is decontextualized many times. Other times, we never, for example, 239 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: touch upon the fact it's a discourse that is very 240 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:12,596 Speaker 1: present in America, for example, massive carceration and the carceral state, 241 00:16:12,676 --> 00:16:16,636 Speaker 1: and trying to understand the law enforcement apparatus, how it 242 00:16:16,676 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: interacts with minority groups or with racial violence, and these 243 00:16:20,676 --> 00:16:23,076 Speaker 1: kind of topics are never talked about, and these really 244 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:27,396 Speaker 1: law schools, and so this lens of looking at the 245 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: law in context is very much absent many times from 246 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 1: law schools. I would add, by the way, that I 247 00:16:34,036 --> 00:16:36,236 Speaker 1: think a lot of students in American law schools would 248 00:16:36,276 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: tell you that until the last decade, a lot of 249 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: those topics were slighted in most of American legal education too, 250 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 1: with respect to raise in the United States and particularly 251 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:47,756 Speaker 1: the history of white supremacy in the United States. But 252 00:16:47,796 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: that that doesn't make it any better. I'm just noting 253 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: that that that's the case. So with that very helpful context, 254 00:16:54,356 --> 00:16:57,116 Speaker 1: I want to turn now to really the reason that 255 00:16:57,156 --> 00:16:59,676 Speaker 1: I wanted to have you on the podcast, and that 256 00:16:59,836 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 1: is to hear more about your view about why this 257 00:17:05,796 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 1: particular iteration of violence between Israel and Gaza, which started 258 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:14,596 Speaker 1: in certain ways that were very familiar going back at 259 00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 1: least a couple of decades and in some ways longer so. 260 00:17:18,156 --> 00:17:22,796 Speaker 1: Violence in and around Jerusalem, unrest at Alaxa, the Temple 261 00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 1: Mount site, rockets fired from Gaza Bahamas into Israel, retaliation 262 00:17:29,716 --> 00:17:33,196 Speaker 1: from the Israeli side with air attacks in which lots 263 00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:36,396 Speaker 1: of people die, including lots of civilians. This is a 264 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:40,316 Speaker 1: script that we've seen multiple times before. What seems most 265 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:45,956 Speaker 1: distinctive this time is the violence perpetrated in some instances 266 00:17:45,996 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 1: by Jewish Israelis against Palasinian Israelis, in some instances by 267 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 1: Palasinian Israelis against Jewish Israelis in a number of different 268 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:57,756 Speaker 1: cities and places around the country, including cities that you're 269 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: describing as mixed cities. So the first question I want 270 00:18:00,796 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: to ask is, and it's a really hard one, why 271 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: this time? Why is this happening? In your view? Now, 272 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:14,916 Speaker 1: that's an important question. I think the for understanding it, 273 00:18:15,916 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 1: we need to zoom out a little bit and understand 274 00:18:18,796 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 1: what led to these escalations. And I think the immediate 275 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: point of departure would be good. So let's let's talk 276 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:31,636 Speaker 1: about that. So that's Chechter has a neighborhood of Jerusalem 277 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 1: in which there's been an ongoing controversy with lots of 278 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 1: twists and turns, most recently involving a controversy that's headed 279 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 1: for the Israeli Supreme Court. In fact, it's before the 280 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 1: Israeli Supreme Court now, involving a number of houses. Do 281 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 1: you want to give us the legal background? No, one, 282 00:18:46,796 --> 00:18:48,476 Speaker 1: no one better for then you to explain the legal 283 00:18:48,476 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 1: backgrounds since as as a human rights layer you've worked 284 00:18:50,716 --> 00:18:53,036 Speaker 1: on these kinds of cases. Yeah, so I think I 285 00:18:53,076 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: think the most important to put it simply, what's happening 286 00:18:56,276 --> 00:18:59,356 Speaker 1: there is that there is families, Palestinian families living in 287 00:18:59,436 --> 00:19:03,956 Speaker 1: this is Jerusalem neighborhood that are now being brought to 288 00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: court by Jewish settler organizations. And the idea is that 289 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 1: these these families who were resettled, part of them were 290 00:19:12,116 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: resettled there in the fifties before Israel even occupied, and 291 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 1: they were resettled because they were refugees from internally displaced 292 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:25,196 Speaker 1: from Haifa, from other places. And now these settler groups 293 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:29,156 Speaker 1: or settler organizations are trying to claim this property by 294 00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 1: using a hook claiming that this property belonged to Jewish 295 00:19:32,716 --> 00:19:35,996 Speaker 1: people before nineteen for eight, before the establishment of the 296 00:19:36,036 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: state of Visions. So there is a complex actually legal situation. 297 00:19:39,716 --> 00:19:44,836 Speaker 1: But what's important to understand is that this system works 298 00:19:44,916 --> 00:19:48,756 Speaker 1: with two different rules applying to do different people. Palestinians 299 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: cannot try to claim property that was Palestinians before nineteen 300 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:58,636 Speaker 1: forty eight. This path is only allowed for particularly in 301 00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:02,636 Speaker 1: East Jerusalem. For Jewish that is usually even not the 302 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:05,716 Speaker 1: particular families of the Jewish people who lived in the houses, 303 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 1: but Jewish settler and geo's or groups. And so what 304 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,396 Speaker 1: we're seeing here is illegal. To pause, Yeah, just to 305 00:20:15,436 --> 00:20:17,556 Speaker 1: pause to clarify the legal battle for people who aren't 306 00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: you know, inside the inside the details of this as 307 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:24,396 Speaker 1: I understand it, the position of the settler groups is 308 00:20:24,516 --> 00:20:29,316 Speaker 1: that these houses were lived in by Jews before nineteen 309 00:20:29,316 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 1: forty eight, when there was neither an Israel nor a Palestine. 310 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:35,996 Speaker 1: There was a UN mandate administered by by Britain that 311 00:20:36,516 --> 00:20:40,436 Speaker 1: that in nineteen forty eight this territory ended up after 312 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: Israel declared independence and ended up in a war with 313 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:46,876 Speaker 1: a number of its neighbors, including Jordan, ended up under 314 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:49,716 Speaker 1: Jordanian control between nineteen forty eight and nineteen sixty seven. 315 00:20:50,236 --> 00:20:51,756 Speaker 1: Am I right? Am I just correct me if I 316 00:20:51,836 --> 00:20:54,396 Speaker 1: go wrong. I mean, and that during that period of time, 317 00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:57,796 Speaker 1: no Jews were permitted to or chose to stay within 318 00:20:57,876 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 1: what had become Jordan. And at that moment Palestinians who 319 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:04,356 Speaker 1: were internally displaced from other places within what had become 320 00:21:04,436 --> 00:21:07,196 Speaker 1: Israel were resettled in these homes. They've been there since, 321 00:21:07,636 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 1: and in nineteen sixty seven Israel conquered this territory back. 322 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 1: It's subsequently annexed the territory, although it's annexation is not 323 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:17,596 Speaker 1: recognized by the international community, but it is recognized by 324 00:21:17,596 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 1: the Israeli courts. And so in principle, under Israeli law, 325 00:21:21,836 --> 00:21:24,796 Speaker 1: these homes are supposed to revert to whom Are they 326 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:27,996 Speaker 1: supposed to revert to the original owners? Are they're supposed 327 00:21:27,996 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 1: to revert to the government. Somehow they were supposed to 328 00:21:31,116 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 1: revert to somebody, which has led to a claim on 329 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 1: them being made by these Jewish organizations. Yes, but these 330 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 1: legal baties have been actually happening since the seventies in 331 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:44,476 Speaker 1: Sarah and elsewhere in Jerusalem, and we're seeing that there 332 00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 1: is on one hand, while the court allows bringing these 333 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 1: cases when and these claims by Jewish groups, it does 334 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,996 Speaker 1: not allow any claims by Palestinians to reclaim their property 335 00:21:55,076 --> 00:21:58,516 Speaker 1: before nineteen forty eight. And this is hugely problematic because 336 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:02,036 Speaker 1: these people, part of the Czech families, were resettled there 337 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,076 Speaker 1: by the un by the UNWA in conduction with the 338 00:22:05,156 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 1: Jordanian government that was back then in the fifties. That 339 00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:14,276 Speaker 1: neighbor and UNROWA is the United Nations especially designated institution 340 00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:17,756 Speaker 1: that essentially only deals with Palestinian refugees. I mean that's 341 00:22:17,796 --> 00:22:19,996 Speaker 1: basically its job. And it has existed since forty eight 342 00:22:20,036 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: and still exists, yes, and so I really think that 343 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:26,396 Speaker 1: the words of the families themselves are put this very strongly, 344 00:22:26,476 --> 00:22:29,236 Speaker 1: you know, they say you settled us even here. This 345 00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:32,356 Speaker 1: has become a Palestinian neighborhood for generations now, I mean 346 00:22:32,676 --> 00:22:35,876 Speaker 1: it was Palestinian in part as well before ninety four eight. 347 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 1: There is no dispute that some Jews lived there, right, 348 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:43,396 Speaker 1: but the dispute becomes also more problematic when these not 349 00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 1: the exact people are claiming their their property. But under 350 00:22:47,356 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: some legal constructions, it's enabled for settler, you know, organizations 351 00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 1: to advance a political agenda. And many people have seen 352 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:01,276 Speaker 1: the viral video of Jacob from the US, the settler 353 00:23:01,356 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 1: who is now living in Czech saying, you know to 354 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:07,476 Speaker 1: the family, well, I'm not stealing your home. If I 355 00:23:07,556 --> 00:23:10,316 Speaker 1: don't steal it, somebody else will. And this is part 356 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 1: of the problem. There is people who are coming, you know, 357 00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:16,956 Speaker 1: Jewish settlers coming from the US part of them and 358 00:23:17,276 --> 00:23:20,396 Speaker 1: settling in this neighborhood with no ties whatsoever to the 359 00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 1: particular people who are living them, and they're destroying communities 360 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:29,036 Speaker 1: and forcing evictions and etc. Et cetera un Palestinian communities. 361 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:42,916 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. So the chech Jar 362 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:48,356 Speaker 1: conflict was the catalyst here to drive this latest cycle 363 00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 1: of escalation. That seems clear. How does it relate in 364 00:23:52,316 --> 00:23:55,676 Speaker 1: your view to the Again this underlying question of why 365 00:23:56,276 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: this violence in both directions in mixed cities, because as 366 00:23:59,436 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: you point out, there's been struggle in zech Jarrah for 367 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: a while, and also there have been other instances in 368 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 1: which there was you know, rockets fired from God Israeli 369 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 1: aircraft firing missiles, as well as in in the more 370 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: distant past, Israeli troops in Gaza. So we've seen this 371 00:24:17,676 --> 00:24:21,356 Speaker 1: kind of military escalation before, but without the corresponding violence 372 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: within Israeli mixed cities. So I think momentum is a 373 00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:28,116 Speaker 1: huge part of it, and also timing. We should understand 374 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: this came against the background of Ramadan, one of the 375 00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 1: holiest months in Islam for many people who are practicing 376 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:39,796 Speaker 1: their fasting and end with aid fu so and this 377 00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 1: evictions or forced evictions from Ze came against this background 378 00:24:45,796 --> 00:24:48,596 Speaker 1: and as well as that escalated to raids into Al 379 00:24:48,636 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 1: Aksamosk to one of the holiest sites in Islam, and 380 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:56,676 Speaker 1: this sparked a lot of tensions, a lot of protests, 381 00:24:56,836 --> 00:25:00,956 Speaker 1: and the protests that spread across many different Palestinian communities 382 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: in Israel. First before Gaza came into the the picture 383 00:25:04,676 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 1: where started what started as actually peaceful protests where brutally 384 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: suppressed by the police. I know many of my friends 385 00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 1: who protested actually in Haifa were arrested, detained, eventually some 386 00:25:17,156 --> 00:25:20,996 Speaker 1: of them released. But what started as peaceful protests soon 387 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: became the police crackdown on these protests, escalating the situation 388 00:25:25,076 --> 00:25:30,716 Speaker 1: even more when Jewish vigilante groups started joining this picture 389 00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 1: and killed in led. The first incidents that led really 390 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 1: to the further escalation in violence was a settler killed 391 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:41,396 Speaker 1: in art settler Jewish settler killed and led a Palestinian 392 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:45,876 Speaker 1: citizen and was later released by the court. He was 393 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:49,036 Speaker 1: suspected in killing but then later released by the court 394 00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:51,876 Speaker 1: after a lot of political pressure as well. In the background, 395 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 1: and so this is the released on the released on 396 00:25:55,916 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 1: the theory that he had acted in self defense. Right, 397 00:25:58,596 --> 00:26:00,636 Speaker 1: And there's are, if I'm not mistaken, that's the episode 398 00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:02,796 Speaker 1: of which there's a video which also has been widely 399 00:26:03,196 --> 00:26:06,036 Speaker 1: widely shared on the internet, Yes, which showed actually that 400 00:26:06,116 --> 00:26:09,236 Speaker 1: he's shooting from far away. But I think that this 401 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 1: situation where Musa Hassuni, the person the Palestine from let 402 00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:15,476 Speaker 1: who was killed by the subtler. The next day, we 403 00:26:15,556 --> 00:26:18,796 Speaker 1: see the eruption of violence even more. We see that 404 00:26:18,956 --> 00:26:23,036 Speaker 1: police is cracking down on the funeral of this person, 405 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:26,916 Speaker 1: leading to even more tensions and etcetera, etcetera, and then 406 00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 1: it spread to many different localities. Obviously there has been 407 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: also Palestinian violence, but I think we should understand here 408 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: the forces at play. While Jewish vigilante groups we're roaming 409 00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 1: the streets, coming organizing on WhatsApp, telegram, etc. And going 410 00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:47,876 Speaker 1: to Palestinian neighborhoods, there were actually no similar instances where 411 00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:53,076 Speaker 1: groups were organizing Palestinian groups organizing to go to Jewish 412 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:57,116 Speaker 1: neighborhoods to attack them. Yes, there has been obviously Palestinian 413 00:26:57,196 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 1: violence that as I understand, it's reacted to the attacks 414 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 1: by mobs and as well as by the police. There 415 00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: has been I think the police has been doning these 416 00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 1: attacks while doing absolutely almost effectively nothing to prevent these attacts. 417 00:27:15,436 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 1: And this is I think, what what is distinctive about 418 00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:21,396 Speaker 1: this moment as well. We are seeing both private and 419 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: state actors working on violence that is manifesting against Palestinian 420 00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:31,996 Speaker 1: communities in Israel in an unprecedented way. Two thoughts on 421 00:27:32,436 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: that analysis. The first is, you know, no doubt lots 422 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 1: of Jewish Israelis would say that, you know, would say effectively, 423 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:47,476 Speaker 1: while the violence started on the Palestinian side, and no doubt, 424 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,196 Speaker 1: you know, most Palestinian Israelis and other Palestinians would have 425 00:27:50,196 --> 00:27:51,956 Speaker 1: the view that the violence started on the Israeli side. 426 00:27:53,356 --> 00:27:56,996 Speaker 1: This is characteristic to outsiders trying to watch the conflict. 427 00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: Right each side says, well, you have to understand the context, 428 00:28:00,916 --> 00:28:03,756 Speaker 1: and each side says the other side started it, either 429 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 1: globally or locally in a particular circumstance. And so one 430 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 1: the challenges to outsiders is to try to understand the 431 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:14,996 Speaker 1: deep structures that are driving the cycle of violence, quite 432 00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:19,676 Speaker 1: apart from the particularized incidents. A second point which you make, 433 00:28:19,716 --> 00:28:21,596 Speaker 1: which I think is very it is significant to keep 434 00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:24,796 Speaker 1: in mind, is that Israel has the state on its side, right, 435 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:26,796 Speaker 1: I mean certainly within Israel, it has the government digital 436 00:28:26,876 --> 00:28:29,556 Speaker 1: on its side, and then with respect to Gaza, it 437 00:28:29,716 --> 00:28:34,036 Speaker 1: has a full blown powerful military, whereas a Hamas does 438 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:36,156 Speaker 1: not have anything of the kind. It has a handful 439 00:28:36,196 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 1: of rockets available at its disposal. So that I think 440 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 1: is important context. Without a doubt, what I'm trying to 441 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:45,636 Speaker 1: get a hold on, and you know, because I don't 442 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 1: know the answer to it, is whether over the longer run, say, 443 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:54,556 Speaker 1: over the last couple of decades, Israeli Palestinians have started 444 00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:59,316 Speaker 1: to feel differently about their relationship to the state, about 445 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:03,396 Speaker 1: their relationship to other Palestinians, about the treatment that they're 446 00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 1: encountering than they have in the past, So that there's 447 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:11,436 Speaker 1: some structural cause, as it were, of the protests, for example, 448 00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 1: that you describe, which started peacefully and then you and 449 00:29:14,236 --> 00:29:17,516 Speaker 1: then met resistance and so forth, or whether it really 450 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 1: is a product of, in a more in coate way, 451 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 1: of just building tensions and in the story that you've 452 00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:25,836 Speaker 1: been describing, it is more a story of this happened, 453 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:27,636 Speaker 1: and then this happened, and this happened. I agree with 454 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:30,596 Speaker 1: that analysis. I get that that's what happened, But I'm 455 00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 1: trying to figure out. I'm puzzling over whether there is 456 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 1: in fact a structural change in the self consciousness of 457 00:29:38,756 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: Palestinian Israelis either they're identifying more with other Palestinians or 458 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:44,236 Speaker 1: less with the State of Israel, or that their identification 459 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:47,716 Speaker 1: hasn't changed but they felt more desperate, or alternatively, that 460 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,156 Speaker 1: they feel more secure within the State of Israel and 461 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 1: therefore felt safer initiating protests and then were then surprised 462 00:29:54,636 --> 00:29:57,476 Speaker 1: by the vigilante violence in the other direction, as well 463 00:29:57,516 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 1: as the police response. I mean, these are all possible hypotheses. 464 00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: I don't have a view as to which of them 465 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:04,916 Speaker 1: is correct, if any, but I wonder if any of 466 00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:08,876 Speaker 1: those ideas or similar ideas makes sense to you. That 467 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:11,676 Speaker 1: an interesting question, and I think it's a little bit 468 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,876 Speaker 1: too early, perhaps to judge on recent events how they 469 00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:18,876 Speaker 1: will affect the deep structure. I think that Palestinians have 470 00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:22,796 Speaker 1: over the since the establishment of Israel actually in nineteen 471 00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:26,636 Speaker 1: forty eight, each generation of Palestinians has had at least 472 00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:32,156 Speaker 1: one major protests that are very similar to what has 473 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 1: happened recently in some sense, where they reaffirmed their Palestinian identity. 474 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:40,636 Speaker 1: It happened with the second generation after the Nakba in 475 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, where Palestinians protested what is often known 476 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:49,236 Speaker 1: as the Land Day against the confiscation of land. It 477 00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: happened again almost twenty five years later in the second Default, 478 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:57,116 Speaker 1: and it's happening now with a new generation. And I 479 00:30:57,156 --> 00:31:00,556 Speaker 1: think it's important to understand this because each generation is 480 00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 1: reaffirming its commitment to Palestinian identity. So looking from a 481 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:11,436 Speaker 1: bird's view, you know, like each generation has had this 482 00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 1: defining moment in which Palestinian citizens erupted against structural violence 483 00:31:19,396 --> 00:31:22,156 Speaker 1: of the state. And you're absolutely right for a person 484 00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: who's an outside that it's hard to follow these events 485 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: from this. But what is important to understand that there 486 00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:30,676 Speaker 1: is a subclass of Palestinians that is struggling with a 487 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:34,076 Speaker 1: state with its practices. And what has the recent events shown. 488 00:31:34,156 --> 00:31:39,156 Speaker 1: It unleashed a militaristic structure that is still governing Palestinians. 489 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:41,556 Speaker 1: It's important to say, you know, Palestinus in Israel have 490 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 1: always lived under the idea of a second class citizens, 491 00:31:46,356 --> 00:31:52,236 Speaker 1: the idea of being heavily surveiled, heavily controlled, and heavily dominated. 492 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: Let's turn to what this is going to mean going 493 00:31:55,396 --> 00:31:58,036 Speaker 1: forward with this very sensible caveat that we don't know 494 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:01,796 Speaker 1: for sure, and it's soon to tell. One trend that 495 00:32:02,156 --> 00:32:04,436 Speaker 1: has been going on in the series of elections that 496 00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 1: Israel has been holding over the last few years. Because 497 00:32:06,276 --> 00:32:08,996 Speaker 1: there have been round after round after round after round 498 00:32:08,996 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: of elections, because it's been impossible for any of the 499 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 1: factions to produce a functioning coalition, Palestinian voter turnout has 500 00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:19,756 Speaker 1: been going up, and the potential impact of what are 501 00:32:19,796 --> 00:32:24,396 Speaker 1: called colloquially and Israel Arab parties or Palestinian parties has risen. 502 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: They've even gotten some votes from Jewish Israelis. Maybe those 503 00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:31,676 Speaker 1: are token protest votes, but there are a handful of them, 504 00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:36,556 Speaker 1: and that too. Many observers who were more hopeful, myself included, 505 00:32:37,036 --> 00:32:40,476 Speaker 1: suggested a kind of willingness on the part of Palstinian 506 00:32:40,516 --> 00:32:44,236 Speaker 1: Israelis to try to use the levers of political power 507 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:46,876 Speaker 1: that are available to them as citizens of a democracy, 508 00:32:47,356 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 1: to try to demand equal justice and equal rights for 509 00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:55,396 Speaker 1: themselves and for their communities. How do you see these 510 00:32:55,436 --> 00:32:58,116 Speaker 1: events playing out that way? Are they likely to cause 511 00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 1: Palsini Israelis to be less inclined to turn out to 512 00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:05,636 Speaker 1: vote or more, are they likely to cause Jewish Israeli 513 00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:09,396 Speaker 1: political parties to be open to entering into coalition with 514 00:33:09,596 --> 00:33:11,836 Speaker 1: Palestinians or less open even than they have been in 515 00:33:11,916 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 1: the past, which is what my instinct would would tell me. 516 00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:16,556 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out, you know, where this is 517 00:33:16,556 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: all leading. I have two things that I'm reflecting about 518 00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:23,836 Speaker 1: this question. One is it's important to understand that the 519 00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:27,556 Speaker 1: protests erupted mainly by young people. I'm not sure that 520 00:33:27,996 --> 00:33:31,116 Speaker 1: there will be a major change in the election patterns 521 00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 1: because many Palestinian citizens of Israel also vote on different considerations, 522 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:39,956 Speaker 1: and so I'm not actually optimistic that we're going to 523 00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: see a deep change here. Perhaps yes, perhaps no, it's 524 00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:47,876 Speaker 1: it's too early to judge. But I think that what 525 00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:51,636 Speaker 1: we've seen is that it quote all the political readership 526 00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:55,356 Speaker 1: of Palestinians in Israel by surprise. I think that we've 527 00:33:55,436 --> 00:33:58,676 Speaker 1: seen in the last two years an inclination of Palestinians 528 00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:02,836 Speaker 1: to cooperate or to consider joining a government. You know. 529 00:34:02,956 --> 00:34:09,236 Speaker 1: The counterpart of legitimating Palestinians as a political allies is 530 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,436 Speaker 1: that Palestines for the first time are actually considering joining 531 00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:15,956 Speaker 1: the government. And I think this the recent event have 532 00:34:16,036 --> 00:34:19,196 Speaker 1: been blown in the face for many of these politicians 533 00:34:19,316 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 1: that thought that, you know, we can gain some material 534 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:28,996 Speaker 1: benefits by joining the governments without discussing quote unquote politics, 535 00:34:29,156 --> 00:34:32,676 Speaker 1: you know, or without discussing the Palestinian question or for 536 00:34:32,716 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 1: the Palestinian problem. I think it's too early to to 537 00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:40,756 Speaker 1: to see how this will implicate on future patterns of 538 00:34:41,436 --> 00:34:47,316 Speaker 1: a voting What about on the broader sense of sort 539 00:34:47,356 --> 00:34:51,476 Speaker 1: of social participation of Palestinians in Israeli life. I mean, 540 00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:53,796 Speaker 1: when you appear in front of the Israeli Supreme Court 541 00:34:53,836 --> 00:34:56,876 Speaker 1: as you have to argue a case. Part of your 542 00:34:56,916 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 1: winning your case is the legal argument. Part of it 543 00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:01,796 Speaker 1: is how you were perceived as a Palestinians citizen in 544 00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:04,036 Speaker 1: Israel who's a graduate of a law school where a 545 00:35:04,116 --> 00:35:07,756 Speaker 1: bunch of the justices or professors, you know, and where 546 00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:09,556 Speaker 1: a lot of them went to law school. You're in 547 00:35:09,716 --> 00:35:11,516 Speaker 1: some sense the same In the US Supreme Court, the 548 00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:13,476 Speaker 1: people arguing in front of the court are part of 549 00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:17,236 Speaker 1: almost by definition, a legal elite. When you think about 550 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:19,676 Speaker 1: how this is going to affect your career as a 551 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:22,396 Speaker 1: human rights lawyer or maybe as a scholar and an academic, 552 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:25,876 Speaker 1: how does it what's the sort of personal takeaway for 553 00:35:25,956 --> 00:35:28,756 Speaker 1: you in how this shifts things, if it shifts them 554 00:35:28,796 --> 00:35:32,796 Speaker 1: at all. I think that the recent events have really 555 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:36,436 Speaker 1: been a breaking point for many philistine is living in Israel. 556 00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:41,476 Speaker 1: The experience, you know, of knowing that you can sit 557 00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:45,116 Speaker 1: in your house and just hear mops chanting under their house. 558 00:35:45,196 --> 00:35:49,116 Speaker 1: Death to adapts, it's really something else. It's not something normal. 559 00:35:49,196 --> 00:35:55,636 Speaker 1: It's not something that we've ever experienced. And still I 560 00:35:55,796 --> 00:36:00,076 Speaker 1: think that it surfaced a lot of the structural problems, 561 00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:03,596 Speaker 1: and its surfaced discourse that has not been very present. 562 00:36:03,676 --> 00:36:05,476 Speaker 1: And here I want to connect it maybe to the 563 00:36:05,756 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 1: question of political readership. I think Palistina's in Israel are 564 00:36:10,356 --> 00:36:14,436 Speaker 1: in need of a new discourse and new leadership and 565 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:18,156 Speaker 1: new imaginations. Not only Palestinians actually, but in order to 566 00:36:18,276 --> 00:36:22,756 Speaker 1: break through this you know, impasse of violence and of 567 00:36:22,916 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: this vicious circle of violence, we need new imagination and 568 00:36:26,756 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 1: in new discourses, and we need to eradicate shift because 569 00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:34,156 Speaker 1: otherwise this will just be you know, oppressed and put 570 00:36:34,276 --> 00:36:38,156 Speaker 1: under the surface. And I think this invites us to 571 00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:42,356 Speaker 1: really deeply reflect and try to reimagine what is the 572 00:36:42,676 --> 00:36:45,316 Speaker 1: deep problems here at stake and how we can solve them. 573 00:36:45,356 --> 00:36:47,676 Speaker 1: And I think the solution will only come from a 574 00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:52,356 Speaker 1: radical reimagination of the situation, from recognizing the experience of 575 00:36:52,436 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 1: Palestinian citizens of Israel, recognizing the injustice that Palestinians have 576 00:36:57,596 --> 00:37:00,436 Speaker 1: been living through for the last seventy three years, and 577 00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:04,396 Speaker 1: trying to correct it from there. Otherwise, these tensions will 578 00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:08,676 Speaker 1: always accompany you know, Palestinians wherever they go, including me 579 00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:11,716 Speaker 1: when I go to the Supreme Court. I mean, it's 580 00:37:11,756 --> 00:37:16,636 Speaker 1: a highly problematic institution that is many times complicit and 581 00:37:16,836 --> 00:37:21,996 Speaker 1: legitimates the ways in which Palestinians are expelled and are 582 00:37:22,116 --> 00:37:25,916 Speaker 1: dispossessed between you know, the river and the sea, not 583 00:37:26,076 --> 00:37:28,876 Speaker 1: only in Ghaza and not only in the West Bank, 584 00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:32,796 Speaker 1: but also is Jerusalem and inside Israel. I think even 585 00:37:32,956 --> 00:37:37,516 Speaker 1: more crucially inside Israel, because Palestina's inside are really suffering 586 00:37:37,636 --> 00:37:42,436 Speaker 1: from a huge problem of permits, lack of permits to 587 00:37:42,556 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 1: build and lack of accessibility to land. Rabbi, I couldn't 588 00:37:48,036 --> 00:37:49,716 Speaker 1: agree with you more. And I think no matter where 589 00:37:49,756 --> 00:37:52,316 Speaker 1: anybody is on the political spectrum, and even if they 590 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:54,596 Speaker 1: may not agree with exactly division that you have, I 591 00:37:54,676 --> 00:37:56,516 Speaker 1: think we can all agree that we're in desperate need 592 00:37:56,556 --> 00:38:01,796 Speaker 1: of new imagination, new leadership, and new conceptualizations in order 593 00:38:01,836 --> 00:38:05,476 Speaker 1: to make progress in the ongoing Israel Pastine struggle, because 594 00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:08,276 Speaker 1: without those things, I think we're pretty clearly doomed to 595 00:38:08,356 --> 00:38:12,356 Speaker 1: a series of repetitions of the kind we've been seeing recently, 596 00:38:12,796 --> 00:38:15,636 Speaker 1: and each repetition, in certain ways has the capacity to 597 00:38:15,716 --> 00:38:18,516 Speaker 1: be a little more destabilizing and a little worse than 598 00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:20,316 Speaker 1: the one that came before. I want to thank you 599 00:38:20,476 --> 00:38:23,716 Speaker 1: for talking to me here. It capture I think some 600 00:38:23,796 --> 00:38:25,316 Speaker 1: of the flavor of a lot of the conversations that 601 00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:27,236 Speaker 1: we have one on one in the office. I was 602 00:38:27,276 --> 00:38:29,276 Speaker 1: really glad to have an opportunity to share that with 603 00:38:29,356 --> 00:38:33,316 Speaker 1: our listeners. And I hope your family stays well and 604 00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:35,796 Speaker 1: that you have a good summer at home, and I 605 00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:37,156 Speaker 1: look forward to seeing you in the fall when you 606 00:38:37,196 --> 00:38:39,276 Speaker 1: come back. Thank you, Thank you so much enough for 607 00:38:39,396 --> 00:38:49,636 Speaker 1: having me talking to Rabia. I was struck by two 608 00:38:50,196 --> 00:38:55,156 Speaker 1: different impulses. One impulse is to look backwards into the 609 00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:59,036 Speaker 1: history and context of the Israel Palestine conflict to try 610 00:38:59,076 --> 00:39:02,876 Speaker 1: to understand the deeper roots of what's going on. Seen 611 00:39:02,996 --> 00:39:07,076 Speaker 1: in those terms, every event has an antecedent. Everything has 612 00:39:07,116 --> 00:39:11,156 Speaker 1: a before, and both Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Israelis, as 613 00:39:11,196 --> 00:39:13,716 Speaker 1: well as other Palestinians, point to what has happened in 614 00:39:13,756 --> 00:39:17,036 Speaker 1: the past as the real generative cause of what they 615 00:39:17,116 --> 00:39:21,116 Speaker 1: experience is injustice and is unfairness seen from each of 616 00:39:21,156 --> 00:39:24,516 Speaker 1: their perspectives, that history is determinative and needs to be 617 00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:28,196 Speaker 1: understood and ought to be understood, ideally from the perspective 618 00:39:28,356 --> 00:39:31,316 Speaker 1: that they take. When we look at the problem in 619 00:39:31,396 --> 00:39:34,636 Speaker 1: that direction as outsiders, we can sometimes think that there 620 00:39:34,756 --> 00:39:38,796 Speaker 1: cannot possibly be a solution because each time we look 621 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:40,956 Speaker 1: to what has happened in the past, we have widely 622 00:39:41,036 --> 00:39:45,796 Speaker 1: divergent opinions of who is at fault. Meanwhile, the cycles 623 00:39:45,836 --> 00:39:49,116 Speaker 1: of violence continue, and each time they get just a 624 00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:53,596 Speaker 1: little bit worse. This way of thinking inevitably causes me 625 00:39:53,756 --> 00:39:58,636 Speaker 1: to feel sad and depressed. And yet there's another theme 626 00:39:58,996 --> 00:40:02,996 Speaker 1: that subtly emerged in our conversation and which Rabi'a particularly 627 00:40:03,036 --> 00:40:06,556 Speaker 1: emphasized at the end of our conversation, and that theme 628 00:40:06,916 --> 00:40:10,516 Speaker 1: is the idea that each generation of young people, whether 629 00:40:10,596 --> 00:40:15,036 Speaker 1: it's Palestinian Israeli's, Jewish Israelis or others involved in the conflict, 630 00:40:15,556 --> 00:40:18,516 Speaker 1: has the opportunity to make its own mark and impact, 631 00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:22,316 Speaker 1: and to think in new and original ways about what's 632 00:40:22,396 --> 00:40:27,476 Speaker 1: going on. That possibility of reimagining and looking at issues 633 00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:30,316 Speaker 1: from a different perspective than merely the perspective of the 634 00:40:30,396 --> 00:40:35,516 Speaker 1: past is the only credible chance that Israeli's, Palestinians and 635 00:40:35,636 --> 00:40:39,316 Speaker 1: the rest of the world have at gradually making progress 636 00:40:39,596 --> 00:40:43,196 Speaker 1: towards a solution that can be experienced by all involved, 637 00:40:43,596 --> 00:40:47,196 Speaker 1: not as perfect, indeed probably not even as just, but 638 00:40:47,436 --> 00:40:50,356 Speaker 1: as adequate to enable them to get on with their 639 00:40:50,396 --> 00:40:56,796 Speaker 1: lives under circumstances and conditions of peace. To get there, 640 00:40:57,076 --> 00:41:02,516 Speaker 1: we will need new voices and new perspectives. A final 641 00:41:02,596 --> 00:41:06,156 Speaker 1: note in a long career of thinking about, writing about, 642 00:41:06,316 --> 00:41:10,436 Speaker 1: and studying the Middle East, including Israel Palestine, if there's 643 00:41:10,476 --> 00:41:16,156 Speaker 1: one thing I've learned, it's that no particular article, book, program, 644 00:41:16,476 --> 00:41:19,516 Speaker 1: and certainly not one episode of a podcast can cover 645 00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:24,396 Speaker 1: all perspectives, and none can be quote perfectly balanced. The 646 00:41:24,476 --> 00:41:27,756 Speaker 1: reason for that, of course, is space and time, coupled 647 00:41:27,796 --> 00:41:30,876 Speaker 1: with the reality that there is almost no statement or proposition, 648 00:41:30,996 --> 00:41:34,556 Speaker 1: whether descriptive, historical, or moral, that anyone on any side 649 00:41:34,556 --> 00:41:37,876 Speaker 1: of this conflict can make that cannot be actively disputed 650 00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:41,116 Speaker 1: by someone on the other side. I therefore think it's 651 00:41:41,156 --> 00:41:45,436 Speaker 1: always a mistake to imagine that one isolated conversation will 652 00:41:45,476 --> 00:41:49,716 Speaker 1: be quote unquote balanced or quote unquote complete. That's why 653 00:41:49,836 --> 00:41:53,036 Speaker 1: it's important to hear different voices from different perspectives, and 654 00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:55,916 Speaker 1: I assure you you will hear different voices and different 655 00:41:55,956 --> 00:41:59,996 Speaker 1: perspectives when we discuss this subject going forward further on 656 00:42:00,156 --> 00:42:03,356 Speaker 1: Deep Background in the meantime, from the team here at 657 00:42:03,436 --> 00:42:08,116 Speaker 1: Deep Background, be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep 658 00:42:08,196 --> 00:42:11,396 Speaker 1: Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 659 00:42:11,516 --> 00:42:14,796 Speaker 1: is Mola Board, our engineer is Ben Tolliday, and our 660 00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:19,556 Speaker 1: showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 661 00:42:20,116 --> 00:42:23,516 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 662 00:42:23,716 --> 00:42:28,396 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia Jeancott, Heather Faine, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, 663 00:42:28,636 --> 00:42:32,156 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weissberg. You can find me on 664 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:34,996 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 665 00:42:35,036 --> 00:42:37,716 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at Bloomberg dot 666 00:42:37,756 --> 00:42:41,996 Speaker 1: com Slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts. 667 00:42:42,276 --> 00:42:45,476 Speaker 1: Go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you 668 00:42:45,596 --> 00:42:48,196 Speaker 1: liked what you heard today, please write a review or 669 00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:51,236 Speaker 1: tell a friend. This is deep background