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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And first things first, this is part

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Speaker 1: two of our conversation about bisexuality and more specifically bisexual

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Speaker 1: erasier in pop culture and society at large. So in

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Speaker 1: our last episode we talked a lot about the history

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Speaker 1: of bisexuality, sort of how the concept of what bisexuality

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Speaker 1: is evolved, and also the history of advocacy and erasure,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of what kicked off the Erasier conversation

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Speaker 1: was not only the wonderful listener letters that we have

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Speaker 1: received asking that we discussed this issue, but also some

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Speaker 1: articles that we read that focused on how was a

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Speaker 1: gangbusters year for bisexual rasure not for actually portraying bisexual

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Speaker 1: people in a great light. Yeah, and before we get

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Speaker 1: further into our conversation, Caroline, could I perhaps offer a

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Speaker 1: definition of bisexuality from bisexual activists Robin Oaks, please, just

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Speaker 1: to give us a little bit of framework to work with,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people just assume, Okay, bisexual just

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Speaker 1: means you're attracted to both men and women equally all

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Speaker 1: the time. Fifty fifty or three on the Kinsey scale,

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Speaker 1: right in the middle. Not so simple. So Oaks famously

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Speaker 1: defined it as her quote potential to be attracted romantically

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Speaker 1: and or sexually to people of more than one sex

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Speaker 1: and or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the

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Speaker 1: same degree. So just a little something to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind as we talk about bisexuality in pop culture and

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Speaker 1: later on about this idea of fluidity. Yeah, sexual fluidity.

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Speaker 1: And we had mentioned a couple of pop culture notes

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Speaker 1: in our first episode, specifically UH characters that appear on

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Speaker 1: screen like Piper and Orange Is the New Black, who's

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Speaker 1: often dismissed as either a former lesbian or just a

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Speaker 1: flat up straight girl. UM. But there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of other characters that have either had their um had

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Speaker 1: their bisexuality sort of glossed over and erased, or characters

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Speaker 1: who have done the erasing themselves, characters like Kurt on

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Speaker 1: Glee who dismissively said bisexuals the term that gay guys

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Speaker 1: in high school use when they want to hold hands

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Speaker 1: with girls and feel like a normal person for a change.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of a one two punch of bisexual

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Speaker 1: erasure and stereotyping. Yeah, the whole gay, straight or lying

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Speaker 1: regurgitated over and over and over again. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's similarly reflected, at least in my interpretation of

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Speaker 1: House of Cards, where there is a spoiler alert if

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen all of House of Cards, there is

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Speaker 1: a dun dunt threesome between Frank Underwood, his wife Claire,

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Speaker 1: and their male security guard. Meets him, LL meet him?

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Speaker 1: When did you lot to come into the bedroom this evening?

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Speaker 1: That is kind of how it goes down. And there

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Speaker 1: have been hints throughout House of Cards of Frank Underwood's

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Speaker 1: I assumed gay predilections, even though he and Claire. You

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Speaker 1: do see him and Claire have sex. Well he I guess,

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Speaker 1: never mind, it's so true, he's having sex with women

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Speaker 1: all of the time. Why have I been assuming that

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Speaker 1: Frank Underwood is actually gay and not bisexual? Am I?

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Speaker 1: Have I been committing bisexual rature in my own head? Caroline?

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Speaker 1: I assumed he was gay? Is he having sex with

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Speaker 1: thoughts of fun? Well, don't you remember Mara? What's her name?

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Speaker 1: Kate Mara? But but then again, it's it's a little

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Speaker 1: difficult with a character like Frank Underwood not to get

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Speaker 1: liked off the rails here because he's willing to do

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Speaker 1: anything and anyone to get what he wants. It's true

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Speaker 1: he's using sex as a tool, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: been why it's assumed that his sex is not born

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Speaker 1: out of desire but rather political motives, right and power,

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Speaker 1: because the the one character that they show that he

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Speaker 1: has this like almost boyish affection for is a man

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Speaker 1: is another man, And so with Claire, it's almost like

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Speaker 1: two power players doing whatever they can to get their

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Speaker 1: their sexes is not loving So so yeah, interesting, interesting

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Speaker 1: how potential bisexuality can get glossed over also when just

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Speaker 1: showing how one character is power hungry. Yeah. And the showrunners, though,

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Speaker 1: speaking to the threesome that the Underwoods have with meat Chump,

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Speaker 1: they chalk it up to just quote whims and desires,

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Speaker 1: just swims and desires, that's all it is. And it's

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Speaker 1: the same kind of thing with Obri and Martell, who's

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Speaker 1: a the ill fated character on Game of Throne. Another

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Speaker 1: another sorry this episode is full of spoiler alerts for

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Speaker 1: anyone who is as behind on TV as I usually am. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well so Abra Mar tells a great character, and he's

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Speaker 1: also a character that has an insatiable sexual appetite both

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Speaker 1: for men and for women. And he tells someone in

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Speaker 1: the show that, you know he he doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: be limited. He loves everyone. Everyone's attractive. He just wants

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Speaker 1: to be with beautiful people. It doesn't really matter. And

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Speaker 1: basically critics and bisexual advocates have pointed at that character

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Speaker 1: and said, why are you glossing over his bisexuality? He's bisexual,

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Speaker 1: whereas plenty of other people would say, why are you

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Speaker 1: raising a stink? He's sexually fluid. Isn't that good too? Well,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it's again that um conflating fluidity with

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Speaker 1: sex drive. I mean, he's a guy who wants to

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Speaker 1: have just a ton of sex, which does seem to

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Speaker 1: play into some stereotyping of bisexual is just of just

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Speaker 1: needing a label for their hyper sexuality. And another character

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Speaker 1: whose bisexuality is sort of used for for ill, not

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Speaker 1: for good, according to Amy's Immerman. Ever, at The Daily

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Speaker 1: Beast is a character named Kate from the movie Dodgeball.

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Speaker 1: So everyone points out that here's this character who makes

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Speaker 1: out with a woman and she's the butt of a

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Speaker 1: ton of lesbian jokes, but then at the end a

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Speaker 1: spoiler reveals herself to be bisexual, thus becoming available to

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Speaker 1: the male protagonist. And and this is you hear this

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Speaker 1: a lot when when you're talking about bisexuality and its

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Speaker 1: depiction in the media that essentially, uh, lady, bisexuals are

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Speaker 1: cool according to media standards, men not so much, and

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Speaker 1: British journalist Mark Simpson says it's unquestionable that female bisexuality

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Speaker 1: is today much more socially acceptable than male bisexuality, and

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Speaker 1: in fact frequently positively encouraged, both by many voyeuristic men

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Speaker 1: and an equally voyeuristic pop culture. It's that whole thing

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Speaker 1: of like, well, but okay, she's still it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: hot when two chicks makeout, and plus she's also still

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Speaker 1: available to me as a man, exactly. You know, bisexual women,

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Speaker 1: there's really girls who can hang, you know, and make

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Speaker 1: out with each other from time to time when we

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Speaker 1: really want to see it. Um. Now, when it comes

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Speaker 1: to representation, just for some numbers, glad that a tally

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Speaker 1: of shows from and found on broadcast networks bisexual characters

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Speaker 1: made up of all LGBT characters and most were women.

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Speaker 1: Not surprisingly on Cable, Uh, they made up roughly the

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Speaker 1: same of LGBT characters and again mostly women. And that

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Speaker 1: twenty one, by the way, is not a huge number.

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Speaker 1: That runds up to fourteen individual characters, so still not

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Speaker 1: a huge not a huge amount. And as we've seen

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Speaker 1: and just naming a couple of characters, the depictions that

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Speaker 1: are there are necessarily always cut and dry, nor are

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Speaker 1: they always positive. Yeah, although Casey Quinlin, writing at The

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Speaker 1: Atlantic in October, does think it's getting better. She says

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Speaker 1: while the representations are still rare and the portrayals of

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Speaker 1: bisexuality tend to be unrealistic, and those portrayals are mostly

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Speaker 1: women because, as Mark Simpson points out, it's more palatable

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Speaker 1: for our culture. Quote, some breakthroughs have taken place in

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Speaker 1: the past few years, and so she cites Nolan Ross

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Speaker 1: on The now defunct Avenge, Klie Torres on Gray's Anatomy,

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Speaker 1: and Colinda's Sharma on The Good Wife, And in talking

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Speaker 1: about Clinna Sharma, for instance, um she praises how it's

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Speaker 1: her sort of cold nature in general that leaves leads

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Speaker 1: her to be sort of a love them and leave

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Speaker 1: them type rather than it just being her wild bisexuality

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Speaker 1: that makes her want to have one night stands with whomever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, and I think, uh, I used to

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Speaker 1: watch Gray's Anatomy, used to I quit it like a

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Speaker 1: bad habit a long time ago. But I did love

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Speaker 1: the character of Callie Torres. She's definitely not portrayed as

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Speaker 1: someone who changes partners on a whim. She's portrayed as

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Speaker 1: a warm and intelligent person who happens to have loved

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Speaker 1: men and happens to have loved women as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like bisexuality in those contexts isn't being fetishized? Right? Yeah? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and that's Shonda rhymes to it for you? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love Shana, I love Shanda oh Man. What a

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Speaker 1: dream stuff I've never told you guess that would be.

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Speaker 1: Are you listening? Um? But yeah, So, Amy Zimmerman, who

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Speaker 1: we just mentioned, isn't as convinced as Casey quinlin is

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Speaker 1: that things are getting better, She writes, Our mainstream media

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Speaker 1: reinforces the notion that bisexuality is either a fun of

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Speaker 1: voluntary act of experimentation or a mere myth through two

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Speaker 1: tried and true tactics misrepresenting and oversimplifying bisexual characters until

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Speaker 1: they're either punchlines or wet dream fodder, or simply refusing

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Speaker 1: to portray bisexual characters in the first place. I mean it,

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Speaker 1: it confuses people. People are easily confused, and I not

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Speaker 1: knowing anything about anything. I'm sure there are some show

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Speaker 1: runners out there who were like, well, we don't know

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Speaker 1: how to treat this, or we don't know how to

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Speaker 1: write a good bisexual character, so we'll just either gloss

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Speaker 1: over it, or we'll make them more palatable as that

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Speaker 1: kind of hot and slutty girl character trope, you know,

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Speaker 1: or or we'll just make them day well. I wonder

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Speaker 1: too how that would interact with network standards, with advertisers

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Speaker 1: who might not be as keen on showing a bisexual

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Speaker 1: man or an authentic bisexual character where it is normalized,

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Speaker 1: rather than something that's just seen as, oh no, this

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Speaker 1: is just a this is a real ratings grabber for

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Speaker 1: bisexual sweep sweek. Um and Zimmerman also cites the Larry

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Speaker 1: King interview with Anna Paquin and which he asked her

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Speaker 1: whether she is a quote non practicing bisexual because she

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Speaker 1: is what she married. She's married to the dude right

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Speaker 1: from True Blood. Yeah, she married her vampire Bill, Anna

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Speaker 1: and Bill, and she seems a little confused when she

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Speaker 1: responds that she's in a monogamous relationship with a man

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Speaker 1: and basically says, listen, Larry, my my sexual orientation is

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Speaker 1: not the same as my sexual part or like your

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Speaker 1: orientation isn't who you sleep with, like that whole that

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Speaker 1: whole thing. Actually, but there's not only eratia of bisexuals

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Speaker 1: happening in the media, on screen, in articles, it's also

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Speaker 1: happening within the LGBT community. You know, we mentioned plenty

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Speaker 1: of stereotypes that both gay and straight people hold of

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Speaker 1: self identified bisexuals, But what else contributes to l g

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Speaker 1: and possibly T folks dismissing the bees. So, again, citing

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Speaker 1: puresearch survey of LGBT Americans we started in our last episode,

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Speaker 1: it found that bisexuals are less likely to quote view

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Speaker 1: their sexual orientation as important to their overall identity, and

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Speaker 1: so researchers think that perhaps that might contribute to attitudes

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Speaker 1: that bisexuals aren't as invested in the LGBT community. So

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Speaker 1: you have l g and possibly T saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: be get out of here. You're not really part of

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Speaker 1: the cause you're like hanging out with your opposite sex

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Speaker 1: partner and everything's gravy for you. I'm so picturing like

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Speaker 1: a schoolhouse rock moment of of big letters, big block

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Speaker 1: cartoon letters just like yelling at each other, like get

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Speaker 1: out of here. Can't all the letters get along? Feel

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Speaker 1: like the L G and T get up from the

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Speaker 1: school lunch table when B tries to sit down with

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Speaker 1: this tray anyway, Um, kind of on the same note,

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Speaker 1: you know, we talked a lot about the New York

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Speaker 1: Times magazine article by Ben Watt Dennis A. Lewis in

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Speaker 1: our first episode, and he talks to a guy who's

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Speaker 1: associated with the American Institute of Bisexuality who identifies as

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Speaker 1: gay for quote a host of emotional reasons. For one thing,

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Speaker 1: it simplifies my life, this guy says. This guy that

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Speaker 1: Dennis Lewis talked to says that, Yeah, I've I've been

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Speaker 1: attracted to women. I just just last week I saw

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Speaker 1: a woman that I felt an attraction for. But I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm gay and I've identified as gay for decades now.

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Speaker 1: And it was just interesting that that quote and that

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Speaker 1: just easier. Kind of what I just positive about TV

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Speaker 1: show runners about was just easier to to be one

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Speaker 1: way or the other, to be black or white, instead

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Speaker 1: that was echoed two in something that activists and speaker

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Speaker 1: Robin Oakes told Dennis A. Lewis about how she was

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Speaker 1: initially afraid to come out as by to her lesbian

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Speaker 1: friends in college, saying, quote, they said that bisexuals couldn't

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Speaker 1: Had I come out as lesbian, I could have been

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Speaker 1: welcomed with open arms, taken to parties, invited to join

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Speaker 1: But for me to say I was a lesbian would

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Speaker 1: have required that I dismissed all of my previous attractions

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Speaker 1: didn't come out. But it's more than just fear of

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Speaker 1: stereotypes or a lack of trust. As many researchers, including

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Speaker 1: Lisa Diamond, have pointed out, it's almost an issue of

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Speaker 1: credibility and community, and that a lot of anti LGBT

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Speaker 1: rights people, and a lot of people who are also

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Speaker 1: pushing against same sex marriage have argued that if you

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Speaker 1: can go either any always sexually or romantically, then that

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Speaker 1: sort of, in their minds, dismisses the born this way concept,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of advocates have said, no,

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Speaker 1: we need to be able to argue that we are

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Speaker 1: born this way and that we can't choose to choose

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Speaker 1: who we love or who we have sex with. It

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Speaker 1: this is just how we are. And even Lisa Diamond

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Speaker 1: has pointed out we need to find a better argument

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Speaker 1: than born this way, because she has done so much

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Speaker 1: research into sexual fluidity and has even seen her research

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Speaker 1: picked up by the people who were fighting the breakdown

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Speaker 1: of DOMA a couple of years ago, that she's like,

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Speaker 1: we we need to be able to come up with

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Speaker 1: with better and different arguments. Well, isn't that so interesting

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Speaker 1: then that a broader range of sexual attraction and romantic

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Speaker 1: attraction as well, because it's who you want to have

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Speaker 1: sex with and it's also who you want to form

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Speaker 1: relationships with. Um that informs all of this is seen

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Speaker 1: as choice that then is twisted into this idea of well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not a sexual orientation. There's nothing biological

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Speaker 1: about this. These people are simply you know, picking and

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Speaker 1: choosing whomever they want. Um. So it's so it's high

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again through this whole bisexual

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Speaker 1: erase your conversation about how, I mean, just how this

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Speaker 1: logic is often so twisted and how much we really

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Speaker 1: need to underscore differences between orientation and attraction and gender

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Speaker 1: identity and all of these different things that are going

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Speaker 1: on and often mixed up to argue against bisexuality. And

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Speaker 1: and this is something too that's been investigated in academia

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Speaker 1: and on the more theoretical side as well, because in

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Speaker 1: terms of queer theory, bisexuality has not gotten nearly as

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Speaker 1: much attention in terms of the l g B, t

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Speaker 1: q UM spectrum of things. And there's this a particular

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Speaker 1: paper that came out in two thousand that's sided often

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Speaker 1: by law professor Kenji as No, called the Epistemic Contract

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Speaker 1: of Bisexual Erasure in the Stanford Law Review. And Caroline,

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Speaker 1: can you can you break down what you Sho is

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Speaker 1: talking about, because it's all about this the so called

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Speaker 1: episdemic contract, which is fancy seek for what well basically

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Speaker 1: so epistemic is defined as of or related to knowledge

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Speaker 1: or knowing, and he defines this so called epistemic contract

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Speaker 1: as an agreement essentially obviously unspoken unless there are meetings

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Speaker 1: that I haven't been to. Yeah, are there are there

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Speaker 1: straight meetings we're not getting invites to. That's totally fine. Um,

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Speaker 1: But it's basically this unspoken agreement between straight people and

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Speaker 1: gay people that bisexuals will be made invisible in order

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Speaker 1: to do things such as stabilize sexual orientation, stabilize identity, uh,

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Speaker 1: stabilize the importance of sex as a distinguishing trait in

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Speaker 1: our society and in our community building, thus specifically for

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Speaker 1: gay people in the fight for civil rights. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like there's this I mean speaking you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of symbolically like there's this, uh, this binary committee saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we need the binary. The binary is

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Speaker 1: good for all of us because it organizes things and

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Speaker 1: it's easier for us to conceptualize than a spectrum. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and it's easier for TV show producers. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: So so you should know. Wrote this paper after having

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Speaker 1: taught classes related to sexual orientation and the law, and

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Speaker 1: he wrote that the view of sexual orientation as a

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Speaker 1: spectrum from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality. Encourages us to

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Speaker 1: think of that binary as stretching like an accordion to

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Speaker 1: accommodate those ever finer gradations of desire, and he says

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Speaker 1: that we must recognize people in the middle, for instance,

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Speaker 1: a sexuals and bisexuals, because it's too easy to leave

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Speaker 1: them out of the dialogue when it comes to things

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Speaker 1: like the fight for same sex marriage or civil rights,

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Speaker 1: or or really anything that could come before a judge.

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Speaker 1: It's super easy to forget all of those people in

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Speaker 1: that gray area in the middle and only talk about

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Speaker 1: things in terms of gay or straight. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and talking about things that come before a judge. I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: Parental custody is another big one. Um. But there's also

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Speaker 1: this concern too that there is a study about in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Bisexuality in two thousand twelve that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to that accordion that you're talking about all

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Speaker 1: those individual gradations, that more visibility of all of that

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Speaker 1: and these arguments of a more fluid uh perspective on

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Speaker 1: sexuality will inadvertently omit bisexuality. Yeah. Writing in the Journal

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Speaker 1: of Bisexuality in Estra Rappaport basically breaks it down by

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Speaker 1: saying that the psychoanalytic view of bisexuality is quite removed

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Speaker 1: from the experiences the lived every day, day and day

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Speaker 1: at experiences of actual bisexual people, but also that researchers

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Speaker 1: blending psychoanalysis and queer theory end up omitting bisexuality in

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Speaker 1: this discussion of sexuality as fluid, Because certainly the discussion

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Speaker 1: of sexuality is as fluid is not a negative, but

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Speaker 1: when it omits people who self identify as bisexual, then

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Speaker 1: that is worth some further investigation. Yeah, and she emphasizes

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Speaker 1: the importance of getting by identified researchers voices heard, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really seems like when it comes to

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Speaker 1: lgbt Q issues, I would say we there's still a

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Speaker 1: lot of catching up to do in terms of of

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Speaker 1: the b especially when we're talking from an academic perspective,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of language has been developing around this

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Speaker 1: as well. We've been mentioning fluidity a lot, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that the tension a little bit

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Speaker 1: between this idea sexual fluidity and bisexuality. When we come

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Speaker 1: right back from a quick break, So is sexual fluidity

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Speaker 1: erasing bisexuality. You know, we've cited Lisa Diamond a couple

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Speaker 1: of times already. She's got some pretty impressive research author

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Speaker 1: that I encourage anyone to to google. UM but the

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Speaker 1: Advocate sites Diamond, who's a psychology and gender studies professor

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Speaker 1: at the University of Utah, in describing the research that's

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Speaker 1: going on today, and they write that there are now

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Speaker 1: several studies that have found that ten to fourteen percent

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Speaker 1: of American women describe themselves as mostly but not completely heterosexual,

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Speaker 1: and six to nine percent of American men who self

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Speaker 1: identify the same way. And Diamond points out that studies

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Speaker 1: in other countries have found the same general range. And

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Speaker 1: something that Diamond's research partner rich sad and Williams has

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Speaker 1: pointed out too, is how, especially for the younger people

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Speaker 1: they're researching bisexuality, quote doesn't quite capture a lot of

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Speaker 1: what they're feeling. So, for instance, he encountered young men

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Speaker 1: who might say, I'm really tracted to women, but I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't rule out the possibility of a guy, which does

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Speaker 1: remind me of a guy that I dated who described

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Speaker 1: himself as hetero flexible for exactly that reason. UM and

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Speaker 1: seven Williams studies led him to conclude that quote, heterosexual, bisexual,

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Speaker 1: and gay lesbian individuals do not constitute the universe of

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Speaker 1: sexual orientation. So maybe by advocates admit fluidity and bisexuality

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Speaker 1: are linked. Yeah. One American Institute of Bisexuality board member

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Speaker 1: told the advocate quote, I think that fluidity is simply

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Speaker 1: a way to express the gray area that reality really is.

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Speaker 1: I think that fluidity is a good way of talking

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Speaker 1: about bisexuality. Fluidity in reality refers to a range, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's good. And this whole conversation around fluidity

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Speaker 1: and bisexuality and what is the appropriate language reminded me

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Speaker 1: of a New York Times article that I think Diamond

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Speaker 1: also referenced in one of her interviews with gay researchers

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Speaker 1: who have called for an end to using the phrase homosexuality.

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Speaker 1: And this was something that started in the early gay

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Speaker 1: rights movement because homosexuality, that word was pathologized so much

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Speaker 1: in old research, you know, used to describe something that

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Speaker 1: was bad and harmful and something that should be treated

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Speaker 1: and removed um and also the fact that sex is

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Speaker 1: inherent in homosexuality, and so it made all of the

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Speaker 1: focus on gay rights, not about human rights and the

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Speaker 1: well being of people, but rather about sex and it

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Speaker 1: kind of sex they're having. So there's similarly this question

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Speaker 1: of whether or not bisexuality can't is also misleading in

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Speaker 1: that way of focusing and refocusing these conversations and scientific

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Speaker 1: studies on sex rather than the people. Well, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: focuses not only on sex because sex is in the word,

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Speaker 1: but also that binary, which because buy is in the word. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're having fun with words today on stuff Mo'm never

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Speaker 1: told you. And as as Diamond and many other researchers

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Speaker 1: would point out, there's obviously more than just two things

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Speaker 1: going on there. There's it's bigger than a binary. It

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Speaker 1: is a spectrum. It is fluid. That doesn't discount the

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Speaker 1: fact of bisexual people exist and identify as such. But

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Speaker 1: Diamond has some great research into fluidity and gender, and

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Speaker 1: she published a study called I was wrong exclamation point.

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Speaker 1: Men are pretty darn sexually fluid to exclamation point, and

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Speaker 1: she says she was shocked when she realized that men

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Speaker 1: are basically, for the most part, just as sexually fluid

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Speaker 1: as we've always assumed women to be. And writing about

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Speaker 1: this the New York Times magazine said she was surprised

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Speaker 1: to find that almost as many men transitioned at some

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Speaker 1: point from a gay identity to a bisexual, queer or

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Speaker 1: unlabeled one as did from a bisexual identity to a

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Speaker 1: gay identity. And so it's interesting to read about this

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Speaker 1: sort of like you know, we've mentioned in accordion Kristen.

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Speaker 1: But it's also interesting to look at this research as

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Speaker 1: like almost like moving on an advocus, like all these

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Speaker 1: little colored dots moving moving back and forth on this spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Because in her research and then and then a lot

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Speaker 1: of other research into sexuality and fluidity and bisexuality, it's

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Speaker 1: like the rarest of the rare to find someone who

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Speaker 1: is quote unquote here straight or pure gay. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: it's way more common to find people who are kind

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Speaker 1: of moving back and forth as ending up in sort

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Speaker 1: of this unlabeled territory of like I sure I was

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Speaker 1: married to a man, but now I've you know, quote

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Speaker 1: unquote entered bisexuality in dating women, and I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: kind of hang out here now. Well. And we should

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Speaker 1: also note to how that the reason why uh diamond

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Speaker 1: diamond study title is I was wrong when are pretty

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Speaker 1: darn sexually fluid too, is because it's such a new

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Speaker 1: idea even right now sitting here in that that exists

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Speaker 1: among men because of the way that science had approached

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Speaker 1: sort of measuring sexuality, and basically the the go to

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Speaker 1: method of that is to hook up you know, men's

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Speaker 1: penises to these little sort of like a blood dilation

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Speaker 1: gauges to see how engorged they become, and show them porn,

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Speaker 1: and they show them gay porn, they show them straight porn,

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Speaker 1: and they show them lesbian porn, all kinds of porns.

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Speaker 1: They're just watching porns hooked up to penis and gorge

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Speaker 1: measurement tools. That's the scientific term for it, anyway, and

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Speaker 1: and then show showing how, oh well, they're either really

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Speaker 1: into gay porn according to how much blood is rushing

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Speaker 1: into their penis right now, or they're really into they're

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Speaker 1: watching you know, they're watching women in the straight porn.

427
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: And so it's it's been really it's kind of been

428
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: rudimentary in a way, right, And but also, I mean,

429
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: in addition to all that, so many people have said,

430
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: why are we looking at bisexuality or or fluidity from

431
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: purely uh, penis gages exactly, or or even the pupil

432
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: dilation studies of of you know, your pupils dilate when

433
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: you're really attracted to what you're looking at. Are you're

434
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: really excited about what you're looking at? Caroline's peoples are

435
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: huge right now, Oh my god, attracted um because so

436
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: many people point out that there's more to it. There's

437
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: more to it than just who you're having sex with

438
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: or who you want to have sex with. As anyone

439
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: who's ever been in a relationship with anyone could attest,

440
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: there's so many more levels of your relationship than just

441
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: the sexual aspect. Sure, you hope and want to be

442
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: sexually attracted to your partner, of course, but there's also

443
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: just knowing and loving and accepting that person. And so

444
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people are saying, well, yeah, I might

445
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: be you know, this degree of sexually attracted to men,

446
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: but I'm also this degree of romantically attracted to women,

447
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: and the two are never quite mutually exclusive. Well, and

448
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: I guarantee you that twenty years from now, when all

449
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: of this research is going to be based on our

450
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: generation and younger, the data will be completely different. Because

451
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: what Robin Oaks and other people have pointed out is

452
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: that when you talk to young, younger people, It's not

453
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: such a big deal. We're far more His generation is

454
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: far more open and accepting, an inquisitive of all of

455
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: these spectrum labels, and are far more open to this

456
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: idea of fluidity, whether that means bisexuality for them, or

457
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: pan sexuality or queer identity, whatever it is um as

458
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: opposed to the more rigid minded generations of the past,

459
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: who have really had a hard time seeing beyond Kinsey's

460
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: sheep and goats right off fluffy, Um yeah, I mean.

461
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: And and the more that anyone reads about this, talks

462
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: about this, studies this, the more that the concept of

463
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: a spectrum is normalized and makes sense, and the more

464
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: that people our age younger, even younger than that, future people,

465
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: we'll start to to kind of grasp the idea of like, Okay,

466
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: well this is the world does not exist on a

467
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: binary for anything that there's so many shades in between,

468
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: especially for sexuality. I mean, the zie Goats, get it, Caroline,

469
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: come on, the Ziegat you know, at eleven weeks, there

470
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: with it, super with it. But this is also too though,

471
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, a call for better bisexual representation, the end

472
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: of biration, all these things that we've been talking about,

473
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: because there is no question that these people exist. You know,

474
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: we we just kind of need to get over our

475
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: hang ups, maybe about language and the need. It just

476
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: seems like there's this driving need to put everybody in

477
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: as few boxes as possible, Like what, why do I

478
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: mean to be in a box? Yeah? I mean it

479
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: makes for better like closet organization, That's true. See what

480
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: I did there. I could use more boxes in my

481
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: house and sense. Yeah, I definitely could use some our

482
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: home organization as well. But anyway, I mean, I think

483
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: we will get there in terms of maybe not getting

484
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: over our desire to put people in in various boxes,

485
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: but but maybe more accepting of the fact that the

486
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: boxes are different shapes than bigger and longer and shorter

487
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: and whatever, um. You know. As research from people like

488
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: Lisa Diamond gains traction, and as people like the American

489
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: Institute of Bisexuality help fund more studies and bring attention

490
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: to these issues, maybe we can get past the point

491
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: of only literally studying arousal and remember that their attraction, love, sex,

492
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 1: all of the stuff is more multifaceted than just the

493
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: penis meter. Yeah, not focusing so much on the sex

494
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: of bisexuality, and we really want to hear again from

495
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: bisexual listeners, queer listeners, pan sexual listeners. No, I'm not

496
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: equating all the same things. I'm just asking for your

497
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: feed back, all of you listening and and gay listeners

498
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: as well. And you know what, everybody, everybody, we want

499
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: to hear your inclusive your thoughts, all of your inclusive thoughts,

500
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: because I mean, this is where we were clearly at

501
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: a point of having a cultural conversation about this, and

502
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: I really want to hear the voices out there, So

503
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: send us your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff works

504
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet

505
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and

506
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you

507
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break and

508
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: now back to the show. Well, Kristen, I have some

509
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: more letters here for you, uh, in reference to our

510
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: Single Women and Single by Choice episodes, I have a

511
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: letter here from Jody who says, I noticed in your

512
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: references that there were very few qualitative studies in which

513
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: women who are single by choice were interviewed for their

514
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: reasons for being single. As a researcher who believes that

515
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: in order to really understand people, you need to go

516
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: straight to the source and get really deep information. I

517
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: was saddened to hear how much time had been dedicated

518
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: to describing single women, with very few single women actually

519
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: being interviewed talk about man splaining I myself, I'm a

520
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: woman who is chosen to be single, largely because I

521
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: haven't met a man who has the kindness I seek

522
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: in a partner, lives a similar lifestyle, and who lives

523
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: in the same city and region. Do I think I'm

524
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: missing out and not living the life I want to live.

525
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: I suppose that if I were looking for someone to

526
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: come in and make my life better, I would be

527
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: missing out. But my life is already as good as

528
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: it can get, so I don't need that. I'm looking

529
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 1: for someone to join me in my already great life,

530
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: to share experiences and to build memories with until I

531
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: find Mr. Wright. I have a number of relationships with

532
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: men that are very meaningful to me and satisfying. It

533
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: is frustrating, though, that for women, relationships are defined is

534
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: either committed a long term and married or invalid. I've

535
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: always wanted to get married, but being married isn't the

536
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: most important aspect of my life. So many of the

537
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: studies you cited, which I don't believe, we're adequately pleaded.

538
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: We're based on the assumption that getting married was high

539
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: on the list of priorities for the ladies, and that

540
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: a woman's life has to shift once marriage occurs. I

541
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: grew up with parents who pushed me to be independent

542
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: so that being with a man could be a choice,

543
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: and I view the values they taught me as a gift. However,

544
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: I do recognize my ability to choose as a social

545
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: privilege and acknowledge that not everyone had the upbringing that

546
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: I had. I don't have children, and because I expect

547
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: to marry a man, I certainly am not having to

548
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: battle the legal system to ensure that the family I

549
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: build remains in place should I become sicker injured. I

550
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: was surprised that you ladies didn't spend more time talking

551
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: about the benefits of getting married, because it is a

552
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: very important legal issue for gay couples. Finally, with regards

553
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: to the social commentary associated with women who wait to

554
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: get married, my dad and I had quite the come

555
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: to Jesus meeting when he told me he thought I

556
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: was being too picky, and I told him, are you

557
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: telling me I don't deserve to have exactly what I

558
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: want in life? Telling women that they're being too picky

559
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: is insulting and devalues their worth. We ladies are capable

560
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,479
Speaker 1: of identifying what we want and evaluating men for whether

561
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: or not they're the right ones for us. We are

562
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: awesome and deserve exactly what we want. Finally, as a

563
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: professional woman, my general experience has been that my lady

564
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: peers have trouble finding men to marry because we can't

565
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: seem to find men who are equally successful but who

566
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: don't want us to put our careers on hold and

567
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: play back up to their careers. The quote unquote successful

568
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: and ideal men my friends and I meet seem to

569
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 1: mostly be looking for personal assistance, which does not match

570
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: what I'm looking for. Single by choice for the women

571
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,959
Speaker 1: I know, is generally the result of not being able

572
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 1: to find a man who respects and values our success

573
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: and commitment to ourselves. We think the unmarried women problem

574
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: mostly isn't with us, it's with the expectations men have

575
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: for us should we agree to get married. For many

576
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: of us, it is second best because we can't get married,

577
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: because we can't find the kind of men we seek.

578
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: So thank you, Jody. So I've got to let her

579
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: here from Sharon and she writes. Your podcast on single

580
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: by Choice really got me thinking about my own choices

581
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: and those of my friends. Well, I'll admit that I

582
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: been paired up for a long time. I met my

583
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: husband at university. I've always had single girlfriends. I would

584
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 1: like to say that I always accepted them for who

585
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: they were and not their relationship status. But I didn't.

586
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: I did judge them. I did think, Gosh, when is

587
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: you going to find the right guy? For that? I'm

588
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: very sorry. I would never think that now those girl

589
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: friends who either didn't find the right guy or gal, No,

590
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm jealous of their freedom. I've been married for fifteen

591
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: years and have two children, and I already know and

592
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: a voice it freely. If I ever find myself single again,

593
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: I have no intention of pursuing further relationships. I love

594
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: my husband and children, but being on my own sounds

595
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: pretty darn awesome. I chose married with children. I doubt

596
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: I would have been content without them, But in a

597
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 1: parallel universe, I'm deeply envious of the me that stayed

598
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: on her own, and it's happy with that decision. I

599
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: look forward to a future that doesn't push us all

600
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: to pair up, get married, and make babies. If that's

601
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: what you want, great I did. But would I have

602
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: if society didn't tell me that I should. I'll never know.

603
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be wonderful if being single or childless was

604
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: fully supported by society? I believe that will happen eventually.

605
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: So thanks for sending us your thoughts and experiences, Sharon,

606
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff

607
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address

608
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as

609
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including

610
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: our sources so that you can learn more about bisexuality

611
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: and bisexual erasure, head on over to stuff Mom Never

612
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

613
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com