1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,316 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 2: A couple of years before the United States entered the 3 00:00:22,636 --> 00:00:25,676 Speaker 2: Second World War, there was a meeting at Harvard University. 4 00:00:28,316 --> 00:00:31,636 Speaker 2: The president of Harvard was there, the president of MIT, 5 00:00:32,276 --> 00:00:35,156 Speaker 2: a Nobel Prize winner, the president of the Standard Oil 6 00:00:35,196 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 2: Development Company, and two professors, Louis Feezer from Harvard and 7 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 2: the chair, Hoyt Hoddle from MIT. 8 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:50,076 Speaker 1: Come thirty nine. A lot of people fought the war 9 00:00:50,316 --> 00:00:54,236 Speaker 1: was something we'd be in sooner or later, and our 10 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:56,796 Speaker 1: state of preparedness was poor. 11 00:00:57,996 --> 00:01:02,356 Speaker 2: Hoddle was slender, high forehead, generous eyebrows, a giant in 12 00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 2: his field. He had been tapped by the National Defense 13 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:09,916 Speaker 2: Research Committee the NDRC, the top secret government group charged 14 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 2: with developing new weapons for the American military. The most 15 00:01:14,356 --> 00:01:18,156 Speaker 2: famous effort of the NDRC was, of course, the Manhattan Project, 16 00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 2: the multi billion dollar operation out of Los Alamos to 17 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:26,556 Speaker 2: develop the first atomic bomb. Hoddle's group was a more 18 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 2: obscure subcommittee. They weren't physicists, they were chemists, and their 19 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 2: focus wasn't on finding better ways to blow things up. 20 00:01:35,556 --> 00:01:38,436 Speaker 2: It was on finding better ways to burn things down. 21 00:01:41,596 --> 00:01:45,036 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to revisionist history. 22 00:01:45,236 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 2: My podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is part 23 00:01:50,116 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 2: two of a four part series about Curtis LeMay and 24 00:01:54,236 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 2: the events of March nineteen forty five. Part one, which 25 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:02,276 Speaker 2: you should listen to first if you have not already, 26 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 2: was about the rise of an insurgent group of pilots 27 00:02:05,556 --> 00:02:09,796 Speaker 2: known as the Bomber Mafia. They believed that wars could 28 00:02:09,796 --> 00:02:14,396 Speaker 2: be won entirely from the air, but bombers need bombs, 29 00:02:14,956 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 2: and this episode is about the scientists who tempted the 30 00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:21,076 Speaker 2: bomber Mafia with one of the most seductive and the 31 00:02:21,116 --> 00:02:27,916 Speaker 2: most deadly weapons of the modern era. It is important 32 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:30,676 Speaker 2: not to confuse the chemists of World War II with 33 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 2: the physicists. They belonged to different ecosystems. Robert Oppenheimer, who 34 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 2: ran the Manhattan Project, was the archetypal physicist. Brilliant, handsome, charismatic, moody. 35 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:46,716 Speaker 2: Oppenheimer grew up in luxury in Manhattan, in an apartment 36 00:02:46,756 --> 00:02:49,796 Speaker 2: with paintings by Picasso and van go He fell in 37 00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:54,516 Speaker 2: love with beautiful communists. In the world of science. Oppenheimer 38 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 2: was an aristocrat. He had no difficulty persuading the government 39 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 2: to build him a massive, secluded research facility at Los Alamos, 40 00:03:03,796 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 2: near his ranch in Santa Fe, where Oppenheimer and his 41 00:03:07,036 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 2: fellow physicists could pursue the whole grail of the atomic bomb. 42 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 2: The Manhattan Project cost two billion in nineteen forty dollars. 43 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,436 Speaker 2: The people who worked on it were quite literally the 44 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 2: smartest people in the world. The operation was infiltrated by spies. 45 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:27,036 Speaker 2: Everyone was having affairs. Los Alamos was like a high 46 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 2: IQ reality show. That was physics in the nineteen forties, 47 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:36,756 Speaker 2: the province of glamour and intrigue. The chemists were not 48 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 2: like that. Hoyt Hottle and his obscure subcommittee weren't trying 49 00:03:41,316 --> 00:03:45,076 Speaker 2: to split the atom or glimp some distant scientific horizon. 50 00:03:45,596 --> 00:03:48,236 Speaker 2: They were interested in the oldest and most basic of 51 00:03:48,236 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 2: all weapons of war. Fire. They talked about it, obsessed 52 00:03:52,916 --> 00:03:54,476 Speaker 2: about it, dreamt about it. 53 00:03:55,676 --> 00:04:00,116 Speaker 1: On the day of my arrival, I was scheduled to 54 00:04:00,316 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 1: talk before the Zoroastrian Society. 55 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:07,476 Speaker 2: This is Hoddle in an interview near the end of 56 00:04:07,476 --> 00:04:10,396 Speaker 2: his life with the Science History in Steady, talking about 57 00:04:10,396 --> 00:04:13,116 Speaker 2: meeting his counterparts in England in the middle of the war. 58 00:04:13,756 --> 00:04:17,756 Speaker 2: The Zoroastrian Society was an informal group of military men, professors, 59 00:04:17,836 --> 00:04:21,956 Speaker 2: and mathematicians. They named themselves for an ancient Persian religion 60 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:25,356 Speaker 2: which had special rituals based on fire, and. 61 00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 1: The Zoroastrian society talked about how better to put out fires, 62 00:04:31,556 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: or how to do this that or the other passed 63 00:04:35,796 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 1: on the quality of bombs. 64 00:04:38,476 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 2: This was Hoddle's kind of crowd. His personal specialty was flamethrowers, and. 65 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 1: I thought it would be a good thing to get 66 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 1: general motors into a tank mounted flame thrower with intermittent ejection. 67 00:04:54,396 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 1: Intermittency permitted you you use a very much larger diameter nozzle. 68 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 2: If you mounted a flamethrower on a tank. Well, that 69 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:09,916 Speaker 2: really grabbed his imagination. But the NDRC needed the country's 70 00:05:09,916 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 2: scientists to think bigger. The Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor 71 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:17,556 Speaker 2: and controlled much of East Asia. The Germans were in 72 00:05:17,596 --> 00:05:23,916 Speaker 2: command of Europe. America needed new weapons fast. Physicists were 73 00:05:23,956 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 2: dispatched to New Mexico to split the atom and the 74 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:30,076 Speaker 2: chemists were asked to re examine the lethal qualities of 75 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 2: thermal combustion. 76 00:05:32,196 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 1: We needed to know more about encendry bombs. 77 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:43,796 Speaker 2: So Hoddle gathered his elite circle University presidents, Nobel Prize winners, 78 00:05:44,236 --> 00:05:47,716 Speaker 2: Ivy League professors, all of them specialists in the particular 79 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 2: consequences of combining oxygen, fuel, and heat. And he proposed 80 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:56,116 Speaker 2: a competition, a bakeoff. If you will, let us see 81 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 2: who among us can build the finest weapon for burning 82 00:05:59,316 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 2: things down. Let the best firebomb win. Hoyt Hoddle's bakeoff 83 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:11,956 Speaker 2: would eventually involve some of the biggest industrial companies in 84 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:15,876 Speaker 2: the country. But there was one dark horse, Louis Fezer. 85 00:06:16,356 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 3: Some of the demonstrations of this film out standard frequently 86 00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:23,636 Speaker 3: repeated operations, and I was showing a way with my 87 00:06:23,676 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 3: own students. 88 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:26,236 Speaker 1: I supposed to kill them out. 89 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:29,836 Speaker 2: Fiser was born in Ohio in eighteen ninety nine. He 90 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 2: majored in chemistry at Williams College, got his PhD from Harvard, 91 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:38,036 Speaker 2: postocs at Oxford and Frankfort. Fizer probably should have won 92 00:06:38,036 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 2: a Nobel Prize for his work on vitamin K, but 93 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 2: the war got in the way. His research assistant was 94 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 2: his wife, the equally brilliant Mary Feesar. Women didn't get 95 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 2: hired as chemistry professors in those days, but together the 96 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:55,276 Speaker 2: couple wrote one of the definitive chemistry textbooks co authors 97 00:06:55,436 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 2: Fisa and Feeser. Louis was largely bald, a little heavy 98 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 2: set mustache, always with a cigarette. 99 00:07:03,076 --> 00:07:07,516 Speaker 4: Shall we go into the laboratie, don't forget your safety glasses. 100 00:07:08,276 --> 00:07:11,396 Speaker 2: Louis Fieser was a man of imagination and whimsy. His 101 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:15,476 Speaker 2: scientific memoir, published in nineteen sixty four, begins with his 102 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 2: wartime work, but then quickly turns to detailed descriptions of 103 00:07:18,956 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 2: things like a pocket firebomb. He calls, in an inspired 104 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 2: bit of brand awareness, the Harvard Candle, a chapter on 105 00:07:26,436 --> 00:07:30,196 Speaker 2: attaching incendiaries to bats, an extended riff on how to 106 00:07:30,236 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 2: ignite a one thousand gallon oil slick, and the Kudu Gras, 107 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 2: a chapter on his Siamese cat sin Kai Pooh and 108 00:07:37,516 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 2: his concept for a squirrel proof bird feeder. Feesar wasn't 109 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,636 Speaker 2: a physicist thinking big thoughts under the big skies of 110 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 2: New Mexico. He didn't have security guards monitoring his every 111 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:54,876 Speaker 2: move like the physicists at Los Alamos, or review boards 112 00:07:54,996 --> 00:07:59,476 Speaker 2: monitoring his progress, or anxious military men checking in every day. 113 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 2: He just went to his basement laboratory and made stuff. 114 00:08:05,196 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 2: We don't have many recordings of Feesar but in the 115 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 2: Science History Archives there's an extended interview with a colleague 116 00:08:11,116 --> 00:08:14,636 Speaker 2: of his, someone named William von Eggers during who taught 117 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 2: chemistry for years at Yale and Harvard. It gives you 118 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 2: a sense of this world of scientists with a license 119 00:08:21,676 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 2: to be just a little mad. 120 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:29,156 Speaker 5: God, what was the compound we were after? Elliots trynaccro 121 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:31,316 Speaker 5: benzo nitrate. 122 00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 2: The interview goes on for hours, and it's weirdly riveting. 123 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:37,516 Speaker 2: Part of me just wanted to run the whole thing. 124 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 2: Since it's so well you'll hear. Let me just play 125 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:44,316 Speaker 2: for you the part where von Eggers starts reminiscing about 126 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:47,436 Speaker 2: working in Feesers Laboratory at the very beginning of the war. 127 00:08:53,596 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 5: Put it remember those having carryous tubes. So you put 128 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 5: in about twenty or thirty grams of TNT. You poured 129 00:09:06,916 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 5: a little access of bomb boaming Noel he sealed the 130 00:09:14,756 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 5: dam to. You put it in a bomb and iron bomb, 131 00:09:19,996 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 5: you know, with a wire after around the rains, so 132 00:09:28,196 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 5: that in effect, if you put the uh, the heating 133 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:37,156 Speaker 5: to in that little space, then if it blew up 134 00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:40,556 Speaker 5: the grassroom, hit this little part of the wall on 135 00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 5: the well, because half the tubes blew up. 136 00:09:47,636 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 2: I understand that von Eggers was one of the great 137 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:53,956 Speaker 2: chemists of his generation. He published his first scientific paper 138 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty nine and his last in two thousand 139 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,916 Speaker 2: and eight, eight decades of work. In every picture I've 140 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 2: ever seen of him, he's wearing a polka dotted bow tie. 141 00:10:03,836 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 2: His great uncle was president of the Reichbank in Germany. 142 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 2: I may one day devote an entire a revisionist history 143 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 2: episode to him. How can you not love this guy 144 00:10:13,076 --> 00:10:24,436 Speaker 2: a laboratory? Why he's like a thirteen year old kid 145 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:25,396 Speaker 2: with a chemistry set. 146 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 5: Oh god, it was marvelous times. 147 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:33,476 Speaker 6: The Germans have a word to describe certain persons as 148 00:10:34,556 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 6: cherish antst, which means having an animal like seriousness about them, 149 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:41,516 Speaker 6: and I must. 150 00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 5: Say that there was very little of that in those days. 151 00:10:50,276 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 2: When Louis Feezer came down to Vonegger's lab with his 152 00:10:53,076 --> 00:10:56,796 Speaker 2: ever present cigarettes, the grad students would play pranks on him. 153 00:10:57,396 --> 00:11:01,796 Speaker 5: Louri would come in to talk to his people and. 154 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 6: Would invariably throw his cigarettes still burning and for the 155 00:11:10,556 --> 00:11:15,276 Speaker 6: saint and so the game was to try to guess 156 00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 6: when he was coming. 157 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: Down, and then for ether. 158 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 5: Alsunder would catch fire. 159 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 2: In the hopes that it would catch fire. These were 160 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 2: the scientists the government gathered during the war for the 161 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:39,396 Speaker 2: second Obscure Subcommittee of the NDERC, the basement chemists. They 162 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 2: kept on meeting around the country, planning, scheming, tinkering, and 163 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 2: one day May twenty eighth, nineteen forty one, at a 164 00:11:47,796 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 2: National Defense Research Committee meeting in Chicago, Fizer hears about 165 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 2: a curious instant that just happened at a DuPont chemical plant. 166 00:11:56,356 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 2: A group in one of DuPont's paint factories had been 167 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 2: working with something called divinyl acetylene. It's a hydrocarbon, an 168 00:12:03,796 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 2: oil byproduct, and if you mix it with a pigment, 169 00:12:07,356 --> 00:12:10,436 Speaker 2: the paint will dry into a tough, thick, adhesive film. 170 00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:14,116 Speaker 2: But the film kept bursting into flame. That was obviously 171 00:12:14,196 --> 00:12:17,196 Speaker 2: bad news for someone to make a better paint, but 172 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 2: not for people thinking about how to make a better firebomb. 173 00:12:27,276 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 2: When Louis Feeser was told of the strange fire at 174 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 2: the DuPont paint factory, he offered to investigate. In his memoirs, 175 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:38,636 Speaker 2: he writes, I volunteered chiefly because I had available in 176 00:12:38,716 --> 00:12:42,116 Speaker 2: my peace time research group a man ideally qualified to 177 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:47,196 Speaker 2: experiment with and evaluate a hazardous chemical doctor E. B. 178 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:47,796 Speaker 1: Hirschberg. 179 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:50,876 Speaker 2: Do you know how he got hooked up with. 180 00:12:52,076 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 7: Feesar, Yes, versus FUM Boston area. 181 00:12:56,476 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 2: That's Robert Hirschberg. His father, EBI Hirschberg was Feeser's research fellow. 182 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:05,316 Speaker 7: I think the very quick and short answer was there 183 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 7: were limited places for employment for Jews and couldn't care 184 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 7: less about religion. So that's the labby wound up in. 185 00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:18,996 Speaker 2: Eb Hirschberg was, in Louis Feesar's words, a masterful experimentalist 186 00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:23,996 Speaker 2: inorganic chemistry and also versed in engineering, in mechanical drawing, 187 00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 2: in carpentry, and in photography. Fiser goes on he was 188 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 2: experienced in the handling of military explosives, fuses, poison gases, 189 00:13:33,956 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 2: smoke pots, and grenades, and had invented a long list 190 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:42,196 Speaker 2: of devices, including the Hirschburg stir the Hirschburg stirring motor, 191 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 2: and the Hirschburg melting point apparatus. 192 00:13:45,836 --> 00:13:49,836 Speaker 7: In our basement we had diffuse bombs and things of 193 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:54,236 Speaker 7: that nature, and pictures of explosions that occurred, and some 194 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 7: of the incendiary devices were in the desk jars. 195 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 2: So what were the what these were just the devices 196 00:14:01,516 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 2: that he and Fieser had been experimenting with during the forties. 197 00:14:05,876 --> 00:14:08,956 Speaker 7: Yeah, they invented them that lab, and there are other people. 198 00:14:09,276 --> 00:14:14,996 Speaker 7: They're things like Noe books that had incendiary devices in 199 00:14:15,036 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 7: them that if you were captured and you wrote, you 200 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 7: pull the pen out, you had half an hour to 201 00:14:21,116 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 7: write everything down and what you wanted and get out 202 00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 7: of there before blew up and burned down the building. 203 00:14:26,516 --> 00:14:32,836 Speaker 2: That's Ebie Hirschberg. So he and Louis Feeser go to Wilmington, 204 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:37,156 Speaker 2: Delaware to investigate the DuPont compound that makes paint catch 205 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:41,436 Speaker 2: on fire, divinyl acetylene. Then they come back to Harvard 206 00:14:41,636 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 2: and start cooking up batches of it. They would put 207 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 2: the batches in pans and place them in the window 208 00:14:47,316 --> 00:14:51,116 Speaker 2: well of Feesar's basement lab. They noticed how the substance 209 00:14:51,196 --> 00:14:55,236 Speaker 2: gradually changed from a liquid to thick, viscous gel. They 210 00:14:55,276 --> 00:14:57,756 Speaker 2: poked the gel with sticks. Then they set fire to 211 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 2: it and noticed, and I'm quoting here from Feesar's book, 212 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 2: because this was the crucial insight. When a viscous gel burns, 213 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:10,756 Speaker 2: it does not become fluid, but retains its viscous, sticky consistency. 214 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,596 Speaker 2: The experience suggested the idea of a bomb that would 215 00:15:14,636 --> 00:15:21,036 Speaker 2: scatter large burning globs of sticky gel. You dropped the bomb, 216 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:24,956 Speaker 2: and the gel scatters, and it doesn't just burn itself out. 217 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 2: Big globs of gel fly in every direction, and those 218 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:32,156 Speaker 2: globs stick to whatever surface they land on and keep burning, 219 00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:37,716 Speaker 2: and keep burning and keep burning. Hirschbrug and Feezer now 220 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:40,036 Speaker 2: had to find a way to test this new concept 221 00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 2: of incendiary gels. So they built a little two foot 222 00:15:43,796 --> 00:15:47,076 Speaker 2: tall wooden structure in the lab and compared how well 223 00:15:47,156 --> 00:15:51,516 Speaker 2: different gel formulations did in burning it down. Divinyl acettlene 224 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 2: was good, but a gel made of rubber and benzene 225 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 2: was better, and gasoline was even better than benzene. They 226 00:15:58,156 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 2: tried amber colored smoke sheet rubber, pale crape rubber, rubber, 227 00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 2: latex vulcanized rubber. They made a prototype and took it 228 00:16:06,676 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 2: with them in a suitcase on the train to Washington, 229 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 2: giving it to the Porta de Caerry, who said it 230 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:15,836 Speaker 2: feels heavy enough to be a bomb. Next, they tried 231 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 2: aluminum napthanate, a sticky black tar made by a chemical 232 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 2: company out of Elizabeth, New Jersey. The tar didn't mix 233 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:26,716 Speaker 2: well with gasoline, but they solved the problem by mixing 234 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:32,636 Speaker 2: in something else called aluminum palmitate. Gasoline mixed with aluminum 235 00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 2: napthanate plus aluminum palmitate napom. 236 00:16:40,476 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 8: So if you want an effective incendiary, something that is 237 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 8: sticky is much more effective than something that is not sticky, 238 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 8: because it actually adheres to whatever it is transferring its 239 00:16:51,996 --> 00:16:55,956 Speaker 8: radiation energy into. And that's why napalm is so effective. 240 00:16:56,356 --> 00:17:00,556 Speaker 2: That's Robert Neer, author of Napalm an American Biography. 241 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:06,356 Speaker 8: If the gelled material is too soft or too weak, 242 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:10,316 Speaker 8: then it won't actually deliver a large amount of radiation 243 00:17:10,396 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 8: to whatever it's sticking to. You can think of a 244 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:17,876 Speaker 8: Molotov cocktail that's filled up with gasoline, exploding and delivering gasoline. 245 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:20,836 Speaker 8: It can burn somebody or something quite terribly, but the 246 00:17:20,876 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 8: fire will go out relatively quickly, whereas, by contrast, if 247 00:17:24,436 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 8: napalm is thrown on something, it will stick to it. 248 00:17:27,996 --> 00:17:31,156 Speaker 8: A gel that was too loose would produce what they 249 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 8: described dismissively as apple sauce. In other words, it wasn't 250 00:17:35,196 --> 00:17:38,516 Speaker 8: thick enough or solid enough in its globules to adhere 251 00:17:38,516 --> 00:17:41,476 Speaker 8: to something, and something that was just right would form 252 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 8: quite large sized chunks. So it had to be a 253 00:17:44,516 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 8: balance in between too thick and too thin and just right. 254 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:51,636 Speaker 8: And that's what they ultimately hit upon with napalm. 255 00:17:52,076 --> 00:17:54,436 Speaker 2: I met Robert near at Harvard and asked him to 256 00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:56,636 Speaker 2: take me on what he calls his napalm tour of 257 00:17:56,676 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 2: the campus. The Is this the soccer field? 258 00:18:00,996 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 8: Yeah, this is o'hii field. It's named after one of 259 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:09,116 Speaker 8: the greatest Harvard soccer players ever. And it's the soccer 260 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 8: field now. And it also was used as a soccer 261 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:13,796 Speaker 8: field in the nineteen forties. 262 00:18:14,076 --> 00:18:17,356 Speaker 2: The Harvard soccer field right behind the Business School is 263 00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:21,676 Speaker 2: across the river from the main campus. Eb Hirschberg had 264 00:18:21,676 --> 00:18:23,876 Speaker 2: figured out a plan to turn their new gel into 265 00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:27,996 Speaker 2: a bomb. He suggested inserting a stick of TNT with 266 00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:30,956 Speaker 2: a layer of white phosphorus wrapped around it in the 267 00:18:30,996 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 2: middle of a canister of napalm. Phosphorus burns at a 268 00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:38,716 Speaker 2: very high temperature, so the TNT would go off, driving 269 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:43,076 Speaker 2: the burning phosphorus into the napalm gel, igniting it and 270 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 2: sending globs of it in every direction. For a bomb case, 271 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:49,676 Speaker 2: they used a shell that had originally been designed to 272 00:18:49,716 --> 00:18:54,636 Speaker 2: hold mustard gas. Herschbergen and Fezer come to test here 273 00:18:55,316 --> 00:18:58,956 Speaker 2: when what year do you remember, forty to forty three? 274 00:18:58,996 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 8: It was on Independence Day nineteen forty two. So they 275 00:19:03,396 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 8: finalized the formulation for the geldincendiary on Valentine's Day, February 276 00:19:08,036 --> 00:19:12,476 Speaker 8: fourteenth of nineteen forty And then they figured out the 277 00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 8: white phosphorus burster ignition system and got the bombshells from 278 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:23,716 Speaker 8: the military and built their prototypes, and as I had mentioned, 279 00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:25,916 Speaker 8: dug this lagoon into the field. 280 00:19:26,156 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 2: In the middle of this field the big how big 281 00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 2: was the lagoon? 282 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:33,796 Speaker 8: The lagoon was I believe about one hundred feet in diameter. 283 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:37,196 Speaker 8: It was quite a substantial lagoon because they didn't want 284 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:40,276 Speaker 8: anybody to get hurt. And they had this pretty large 285 00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 8: Napon bomb in a canister that they were going to 286 00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 8: explode in the center. So they put the bomb right 287 00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:49,956 Speaker 8: in the center of this lagoon, which had been filled 288 00:19:50,036 --> 00:19:53,036 Speaker 8: up with water by some trucks from the Cambridge Fire Department. 289 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 2: The birth of Napon baptized in eight inches of water 290 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:01,596 Speaker 2: in the middle of Harvard's soccer pitch. When he was 291 00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 2: doing his research, Robert Near spotted a little detail in 292 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:06,276 Speaker 2: the photos from that day. 293 00:20:06,756 --> 00:20:09,916 Speaker 8: So in the initial pictures of the test, there are 294 00:20:09,916 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 8: people dressed in whites, playing on the tennis courts, which 295 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:15,476 Speaker 8: are still just right over there. You can see the 296 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:19,516 Speaker 8: tennis courts, And then after the bomb goes off, you 297 00:20:19,556 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 8: see that the tennis courts are abandoned. So maybe they 298 00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:25,716 Speaker 8: told everybody that they were about to test this napalm bomb, 299 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:28,036 Speaker 8: or maybe they just let them keep playing tennis and 300 00:20:28,076 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 8: then tested and everybody ran away. I don't know, but 301 00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:34,596 Speaker 8: I mean nobody was injured in these tests. After the 302 00:20:34,636 --> 00:20:38,556 Speaker 8: bomb was exploded, they made a very careful catalog of 303 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:42,516 Speaker 8: the distribution and size of the extinguished globules of napalm, 304 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 8: because that was part of determining the most effective consistency 305 00:20:46,436 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 8: of the gel. 306 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:53,116 Speaker 2: And how does the gel explode past the Now it's 307 00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 2: all contained within the limit. 308 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 8: Oh see, there's no disaster. 309 00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:58,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, they know. In other words, they have some idea 310 00:20:58,476 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 2: about how far the gel's going to fly. 311 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:05,076 Speaker 8: These are genius engineers and incredibly skilled people, and so 312 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:08,916 Speaker 8: they know how far things will fly based on the 313 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:12,236 Speaker 8: out of explosive that they put inside the device. And 314 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:12,756 Speaker 8: they're right. 315 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 2: This was the firebomb that Fiser and Hirschberg entered in 316 00:21:18,836 --> 00:21:22,676 Speaker 2: the National Defense Research Committee. Bakoff up against some of 317 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:25,876 Speaker 2: the biggest chemical companies of the day. Standard Oil had 318 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:29,796 Speaker 2: a sodium soap nicknamed Apple Sauce, Kodak had a prototype 319 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:35,116 Speaker 2: made out of ground up newsprint, Fiser and Hirschberg had Napon, and. 320 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:39,996 Speaker 1: The fourth one showed that Lupont had a methyl methacral 321 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 1: thickened gel. 322 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 2: Hoyt Hoddle organized it all. The Army sent generals to 323 00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 2: monitor the proceedings. The Bakoff testers slammed the explosives with 324 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 2: something hard. They tested the explosives in the attics of houses. 325 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:59,156 Speaker 2: They flew them at high altitudes, in the bombing bays 326 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 2: of plains, resting in beds of dry ice. Test after test, 327 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 2: how well did the ingredients disperse, how hot did they burn? 328 00:22:08,916 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 2: And what one After months and months of this, NAPAN 329 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:17,876 Speaker 2: created at Harvard University, perfected in the soccer fields along 330 00:22:17,916 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 2: the meandering Charles River. The philosophy taught at the Air 331 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:33,356 Speaker 2: Corps Tactical School was based on precision and elegance. Fly 332 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 2: high use some kind of sophisticated aiming device to perfectly 333 00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 2: line up the target. Disable a city by surgically destroying 334 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,756 Speaker 2: its water supply, or its power plants, or its bridges 335 00:22:45,396 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 2: with one beautifully choreographed attack. When Curtis le May arrived 336 00:22:52,156 --> 00:22:55,076 Speaker 2: in Europe, he made his flight crews spend their spare 337 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:58,636 Speaker 2: time studying the targets they were supposed to bomb. No 338 00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 2: one had done that before. Most commanders just gave their 339 00:23:01,956 --> 00:23:05,156 Speaker 2: flight crews their orders and let them go. But to 340 00:23:05,196 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 2: the bomber mafia, that was crazy. How could you hit 341 00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:12,116 Speaker 2: some think precisely that you'd never seen before. 342 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 9: Any crew could hit a target if he could see 343 00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 9: it and had an opportunity to hit it. But there's 344 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:21,956 Speaker 9: a lot of difference between bombing circles in the desert 345 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 9: and bombing a northeast corner of a factory building in 346 00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 9: the midst of an industrial build up, of industrial haze 347 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:31,556 Speaker 9: and bad weather and poor visibility and so forth. 348 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:36,916 Speaker 2: The May made his crews pour over maps memorize plan. 349 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 9: At least they became familiar with the geography the prominent landmarks, 350 00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 9: so that if they saw anything through a hole in 351 00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 9: the clouds, they can immediately translate it to the map 352 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 9: and knew where they were. 353 00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 2: This is what the bomber mafia meant by precision bombing. 354 00:23:55,756 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 2: It relied on skill and preparation. But there was another 355 00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 2: school of bombing area bombing. It had to see goal 356 00:24:05,756 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 2: break the morale of the enemy. But the area bombers said, 357 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 2: why bother trying to hit an aqueduct from thirty thousand feet? 358 00:24:13,156 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 2: Why not just bomb everything in sight? Carpet bomb much easier. 359 00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:21,996 Speaker 4: Can we turn to Dresden? What nineteen forty four to 360 00:24:22,036 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 4: forty five was it the bombing of Dress? 361 00:24:25,476 --> 00:24:25,676 Speaker 5: Yes? 362 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 9: Yes. 363 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:32,236 Speaker 2: The great proponent of area bombing was the head of 364 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:36,276 Speaker 2: the Royal Air Force's bomber Command, Arthur Harris, known as 365 00:24:36,356 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 2: Bomber Harris to the British press and Butcher Harris to 366 00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 2: his men. Once the story goes, Harris was stopped for 367 00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 2: speeding during the war. The policeman said, you could kill 368 00:24:47,076 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 2: innocent people driving like that. Harris replied, young man, I 369 00:24:51,916 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 2: kill thousands of people every night. Harris was interviewed by 370 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:59,636 Speaker 2: the British Forces Broadcasting Service in nineteen seventy seven. 371 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:05,756 Speaker 4: Well, of course, pree per apt to say, all poor 372 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 4: dressed in a lovely city, certainly in producing beautiful little 373 00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 4: China shepherdesses with finny skirts. As a matter of fact, 374 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:20,636 Speaker 4: it was the last viable governing center of Germany. 375 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 2: Dresden was one of the signature atrocities of the Second 376 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:28,036 Speaker 2: World War. An entire city reduced to rubble in one 377 00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:30,156 Speaker 2: night by Harris's pilots. 378 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,756 Speaker 4: How do you answer criticisms that you did bomb civilian 379 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 4: populations and kill civilian populations rather than members of the 380 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:43,676 Speaker 4: armed forces. What we were doing, we weren't aiming particularly 381 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:48,636 Speaker 4: at the civilian population. We were aiming at the production 382 00:25:48,996 --> 00:25:52,996 Speaker 4: of everything that made it possible for the German armies 383 00:25:52,996 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 4: to continue the war. That was the whole idea of 384 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:02,396 Speaker 4: the bombing offensive, including as I said, it's the destruction 385 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 4: of the facilities for building submarines and the armor and 386 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 4: industries throughout Germany and the people who worked in them. 387 00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:19,316 Speaker 4: They're all active soldiers. To my mind, people who worked 388 00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 4: in the production of m munitions must expect it to 389 00:26:23,596 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 4: be treated as active soldiers. Otherwise were they would raw 390 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:28,596 Speaker 4: the line. 391 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 2: That statement they were all active soldiers, to my mind, 392 00:26:34,076 --> 00:26:36,476 Speaker 2: went to the heart of the difference between the precision 393 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:42,796 Speaker 2: bombers and the area bombers. The precision bombers said, you 394 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:46,796 Speaker 2: limit yourself to only the most critical targets, the aqueducts 395 00:26:46,836 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 2: and the power plants and the bridges, because civilians should 396 00:26:50,396 --> 00:26:54,396 Speaker 2: not be primary targets of any bombing campaign. The area 397 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:57,636 Speaker 2: bombers said there is no such thing as a civilian 398 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 2: in time of war, which meant the bomber could bomb 399 00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 2: whatever he wanted. Air Marshall Harris liked his pilots to 400 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 2: fly in at night because they didn't particularly need to 401 00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 2: see see their targets, did they. Plus, flying in at 402 00:27:12,116 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 2: night was safer since it was harder for the enemy 403 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:19,516 Speaker 2: to shoot down your planes. And Harris loved incendiary bombs. 404 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:23,156 Speaker 2: To his mind, they made so much more sense. You 405 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:26,196 Speaker 2: drop explosives on a factory and with luck you blow 406 00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 2: up the factory. You drop incendiaries on the same factory, 407 00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 2: and with luck, the fire burns down the whole neighborhood. 408 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:39,996 Speaker 2: Support for area bombing was strongest among the British, but 409 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 2: right from the start of the war it had its 410 00:27:42,556 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 2: proponents on the US side as well, people who didn't 411 00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 2: buy the elaborate theories of the bomber mafia, especially when 412 00:27:50,396 --> 00:27:52,556 Speaker 2: it came to the question of how to fight Japan. 413 00:27:55,076 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 3: This is an example of the war supplies that are 414 00:27:57,196 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 3: being sent to General MacArthur. 415 00:27:59,236 --> 00:28:01,556 Speaker 1: Look at the bombs to be hurled upon the Jacks. 416 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 3: An air force motorized equipment of every sort. 417 00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 5: Lines upon lines of. 418 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 2: Veg Let me read to you from an essay published 419 00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 2: in Harper's Magazine by two American analysts a few months 420 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 2: after Pearl Harbor. When it comes time to attack Japan, 421 00:28:17,316 --> 00:28:21,276 Speaker 2: the authors argue, there's a really easy way to do it. Fire. 422 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 2: Osaka is their case study. Look, they argue, Osaka streets 423 00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 2: are really narrow. Narrow streets means that fire can jump 424 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 2: easily from one side of the street to the other. Plus, 425 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:36,316 Speaker 2: Japanese cities aren't built of bricks and mortar like Western cities. 426 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:42,076 Speaker 2: Japanese houses were tinderboxes. The article goes on, after some 427 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 2: considerable calculation, we have determined that the combustible coverage in 428 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 2: the twenty five square mile area that is the central 429 00:28:49,876 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 2: section of Osaka is eighty percent, as opposed to fifteen 430 00:28:54,956 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 2: percent for London. Eighty percent. That's almost everything. They lay 431 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 2: out the strategy over thousands of cold blooded words, and 432 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 2: then at the very end, almost as an offer, thought right, 433 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 2: the suffering in some areas would be terrible to contemplate. 434 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:20,756 Speaker 2: The bomber mafia read that last line and said, that's 435 00:29:20,756 --> 00:29:24,916 Speaker 2: the point. That's why area bombing is unthinkable. But the 436 00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 2: chemists read everything else and thought, oh, what an opportunity, 437 00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:31,996 Speaker 2: Let's just burn it all down. 438 00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:37,876 Speaker 1: These generals don't believe what scionists do. They only believe 439 00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 1: what they think they can envisualize. Well, we've got to 440 00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:46,876 Speaker 1: build a Japanese village and the German village. 441 00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:51,036 Speaker 2: Hoyt Hoddle needed to prove beyond the shadow of a 442 00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 2: doubt that Fizer and Hirschberg's nap bomb, the winner of 443 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:58,076 Speaker 2: his bake off, could burn down a Japanese city. He 444 00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:01,916 Speaker 2: chose to do it at Dugway, the Army's eight hundred 445 00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 2: thousand acre test facility in the middle of the Utah Desert. There, 446 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:11,076 Speaker 2: Hoddle's team would build a Japanese city, a perfect replica, 447 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 2: and a German one too, for comparison purposes. 448 00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:20,116 Speaker 1: It's amazing the enormity of the effort that went in 449 00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: the building those things. 450 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 2: They brought in top level architects for the German village, 451 00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:30,316 Speaker 2: Eric Mendelssohn, a brilliant German Jewish architect who had designed 452 00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:32,996 Speaker 2: some of the most beautiful Art Deco and Art Modern 453 00:30:33,036 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 2: buildings of the nineteen twenties and thirties. For the Japanese village. 454 00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 2: Hoddle conscripted Antonin Raymond, who lived in Japan for years 455 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:45,996 Speaker 2: and to this day is probably Japan's most celebrated Western architect. 456 00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 1: We decided that the two inch thick rice straw mat 457 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 1: that characterized the Japanese home that Takami were important because 458 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:03,556 Speaker 1: they were the major resistance to the bomb passage through 459 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:07,956 Speaker 1: one floor after another. So we had to have Tatami's. 460 00:31:09,276 --> 00:31:14,276 Speaker 2: They built twenty four different Japanese residences, twelve complexes with 461 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:19,356 Speaker 2: two units each with shoji Japanese sliding partition doors and 462 00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 2: perfect replicas of Japanese outdoor shutters. 463 00:31:23,156 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: And Raymond wanted the cabinet work on making these things 464 00:31:29,156 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 1: under his eye in New Jersey. Now Here we wanted 465 00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:37,916 Speaker 1: to build a place in Utah. The wood was in 466 00:31:37,916 --> 00:31:42,476 Speaker 1: the Pacific, the cabinet work was to be in New Jersey. 467 00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 1: And these are absurdities. 468 00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 2: As for the architect Anton and Raymond, he would say 469 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:52,956 Speaker 2: almost nothing about that time. In his autobiography, a gorgeous, 470 00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:56,596 Speaker 2: massive coffee table sized book, there is just one line 471 00:31:56,876 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 2: hinting at what it must have felt like to have 472 00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:03,236 Speaker 2: devoted his career to creating Japanese buildings and then being 473 00:32:03,276 --> 00:32:05,836 Speaker 2: asked by his country for help to burn them down. 474 00:32:06,836 --> 00:32:10,996 Speaker 2: He wrote, it was an easy task for me and 475 00:32:11,076 --> 00:32:16,436 Speaker 2: my wife to be instrumental in devising means of defeating Japan. 476 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 2: But Hoddle and his project manager, Slim Myers, were perfectionists. 477 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:27,596 Speaker 1: Said damn it, we've got to be absolutely right. These 478 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:30,596 Speaker 1: generals are not going to stop us because we didn't 479 00:32:30,636 --> 00:32:34,596 Speaker 1: have something that was really characteristic. We've got to be right. 480 00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:41,316 Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen forty three, Hoddle's model villages 481 00:32:41,596 --> 00:32:45,076 Speaker 2: were ready for the Air Force bombers. One plane after 482 00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:48,756 Speaker 2: another dropped their bombs, and after each round, the teams 483 00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:52,436 Speaker 2: on the ground rebuilt whatever was damaged. They compared British 484 00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:56,356 Speaker 2: thermite bombs, which were the incendiaries favored by bomber Harris 485 00:32:56,356 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 2: in his night raids on Germany, with Hirschberg and Feeser's 486 00:33:00,356 --> 00:33:03,996 Speaker 2: nap bomb, which now went by the name M sixty nine. 487 00:33:05,196 --> 00:33:05,476 Speaker 4: Hoyt. 488 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:08,236 Speaker 2: Hoddle and his team stood by keeping score. 489 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:12,916 Speaker 1: Early decided that we couldn't wait for the fire truck. 490 00:33:13,076 --> 00:33:18,596 Speaker 1: We had to rush out to take care of fires, 491 00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:21,396 Speaker 1: and fact we had to rush out before all of 492 00:33:21,436 --> 00:33:23,956 Speaker 1: the bombs had dropped. 493 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 2: The whole point was to analyze the damage, there were 494 00:33:28,396 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 2: three categories of destructiveness A uncontrollable within six minutes, B 495 00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:40,676 Speaker 2: destructive if unattended, and C non destructive. Napon was the 496 00:33:40,716 --> 00:33:44,836 Speaker 2: hands down winner, sixty eight percent success rate in category 497 00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 2: A on Japanese houses. In other words, it caused uncontrollable fires. 498 00:33:50,076 --> 00:33:55,676 Speaker 2: By contrast, British thermite ran a poor, distant second with napalm. 499 00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:58,676 Speaker 2: The US had built itself a super weapon. 500 00:34:00,316 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 3: A main component of the M sixty nine bomb a 501 00:34:03,316 --> 00:34:07,956 Speaker 3: cheese cloth sock containing specially processed jellied gasoline. When ignited, 502 00:34:07,996 --> 00:34:10,916 Speaker 3: the gel filling becomes a clinging, fiery mass, spreading more 503 00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 3: than the yard in diameter. 504 00:34:13,156 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 2: The lethal power of napalm was now an empirical fact, 505 00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:19,316 Speaker 2: and the question of what to do about Japan was 506 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:23,556 Speaker 2: no longer in the realm of abstract argument, which presented 507 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:28,636 Speaker 2: the bomber mafia's ideology with a temptation of biblical proportions. 508 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:32,796 Speaker 3: It burns at approximately one thousand degrees fahrenheit for eight 509 00:34:32,836 --> 00:34:33,596 Speaker 3: to ten minutes. 510 00:34:34,596 --> 00:34:37,956 Speaker 2: Did the precision bombers stay true to the purity of 511 00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:43,916 Speaker 2: their dogma or did they succumb to the destructiveness of napalm? 512 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:46,916 Speaker 3: Four air drops. The M sixty nine is assembled in 513 00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 3: groups of thirty eight. The E twenty three adapter is 514 00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:53,516 Speaker 3: used in forming five hundred pound aimable clusters carried by 515 00:34:53,556 --> 00:34:55,716 Speaker 3: planes equipped to handle this size bob. 516 00:34:56,436 --> 00:34:59,156 Speaker 2: What did Satan say to Jesus during his forty day 517 00:34:59,236 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 2: ordeal in the wilderness? The devil took him to a 518 00:35:03,076 --> 00:35:05,916 Speaker 2: very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of 519 00:35:05,956 --> 00:35:09,436 Speaker 2: the world and their splendor. All this I will give you, 520 00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:13,356 Speaker 2: he said, if you will bow down and worship me. 521 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 3: The clusters are given high and low altitude tests at 522 00:35:17,396 --> 00:35:19,836 Speaker 3: Edgewood Arsenal with a B twenty five loading the five 523 00:35:19,916 --> 00:35:20,716 Speaker 3: hundred pounders. 524 00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:28,316 Speaker 2: All the Bomber Mafia had to do was bow down 525 00:35:28,636 --> 00:35:32,436 Speaker 2: and worship the chemists and all of Japan would be theirs. 526 00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:36,596 Speaker 3: The cluster is released and opened, and the individual bombs 527 00:35:36,596 --> 00:35:39,076 Speaker 3: with Gorez Dreamer's trailing dropped toward the target. 528 00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:05,116 Speaker 2: In the next episode of Revisionist History, Part three of 529 00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:09,076 Speaker 2: the Curtis the May Story, Curtis the May attackts Japan. 530 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:19,796 Speaker 2: Revisionist History is produced by Mee La Belle and Lee 531 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:24,876 Speaker 2: Mingestou with Jacob Smith, Eloise Linton and anna'm Our editor 532 00:36:24,996 --> 00:36:29,236 Speaker 2: is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Garra, mastering by 533 00:36:29,276 --> 00:36:33,596 Speaker 2: Flon Williams, fact checking by Beth Johnson. Special thanks to 534 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:38,716 Speaker 2: the Pushkin Crew, Hede Fane, Carl Migliore, Maya Knig, Maggie Taylor, 535 00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:43,236 Speaker 2: Jason Gambrel and of course, Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.