1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: What's really interesting to me, again and again throughout history 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: is that when everything else around us seems to change, 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: human nature never does. So in this story, there's genius 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: and mediocrity. There's ambition, envy, courage, cowardice, friendship and betrayal. 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 2: So all of these it's just human nature, both at 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: its best and its worst. 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked Presents Wicked Words is 17 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Author 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: Candace Millard is one of my most favorite writers. She 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: knows how to unravel a story about lost history and 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: adventure and betrayal. Her latest book is called River of 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: the Gods, and it's a tale about two adventurers who 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: want nothing more than infamy. And we know that most 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: of the time those stories don't end well. So let's 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: start from the beginning of the story. 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: It starts in eighteen fifty four when Richard Burton and 27 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: John Hanning Speak first meet. Burton is in Aden. He's 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: about to start his first trip into East Africa to 29 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: try to search for the elusive source of the White Nile, 30 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: and he finds out that one of the members of 31 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: his expedition has died before he can arrive. And John 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: Hanning Speak is there. He's on a hunting trip. He's 33 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: on leave from the British Army, and he asked Burton 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: if he can go along with him. And Burton has 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: all kinds of reservations about this guy. He thinks he 36 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: doesn't know anything about this part of the world. He 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: doesn't really seem to have any interest in the people 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: or the land. He just wants to hunt. But Burton 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: feels kind of sorry for him. He thinks if he 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: goes off on his own, he's going to die. It's really, 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: really difficult and dangerous journey, even if you're totally prepared 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: and have a whole legion of people with you. So 43 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: he kind of against his best instincts, he decides, you know, yes, 44 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: I'll bring you along on this trip. 45 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: Why would one in eighteen fifty something consider doing a 46 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: trip like this. I've already talked to another author who 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: talked about the myriad of shipwrecks and terrible things that 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: happened to people in the eighteen hundreds when they go 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: out on a ship. Is this a quest for glory? 50 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: It is a quest for glory, absolutely, and this journey, 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: in particular, this was the holy Grail of exploration. So 52 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: people had been in trying to discover the source of 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: the Nile for millennia. So Egyptian kings and ancient philosophers 54 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: and historians had all been wondering, and there have been many, 55 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: many attempts to solve this mystery. But usually they had 56 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: started at the Mediterranean to see and tried to ascend 57 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: the river, but they very quickly got mired in all 58 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: these swamps and things and never got anywhere close to it. 59 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: So it's not until the eighteen fifties that they decide Okay, 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: we actually should start well below the equator and make 61 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: kind of an end around run into the interior. And 62 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: absolutely they're obsessed with it. They want the fame, they 63 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: want the glory, and they want the knowledge. 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 3: You know. 65 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: I think again, this is a story of the best 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: and the worst of human nature. So the good thing 67 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: is this very natural, very human desire for understanding, to 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: try to understand our world. The bad part is they knew. 69 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: I mean it was a direct and intended consequence of 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: these explorations that they would then take over try to 71 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: take over this land, as we know that they then 72 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: ultimately did. 73 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: In the search for the source of the White Nile. 74 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 1: Can you explain why it matters? 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: Is there? 76 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: I've always been confused. Is there a religious significance or 77 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: is it agricultural. 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: It's the longest river in the world, the most storied 79 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 2: river in the world, that gave birth to one of 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: the oldest and richest civilizations in the world. I mean, 81 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: you wouldn't have ancient Egypt or modern day Egypt without 82 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: the Nile. It's almost four thousand miles long and it 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: literally brings life. I mean that ancient Egyptians used to 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 2: think that it flowed into the afterlife, but they also 85 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: recognize that it brought life to us today. So people 86 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 2: living along its banks and so it's everything that you 87 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: can imagine. They are fascinated by it, and it ends 88 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: up in all their stories and things. But it's also 89 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: very very practical. If it overflows, it can wipe out 90 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: all this farmland and villages, and if it dries up, 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: God forbid, that means widespread death. And so, of of 92 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: course you would want to know where does it begin. 93 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: So Burton reluctantly says, okay, Speak can come along with us. 94 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: Tell me about the launch and the boat. Who are 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: they taking with them? 96 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: So this is an earlier expedition, and it's these two 97 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: men and another European and then they have a couple 98 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: dozen other people with them. But that early expedition ended 99 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: before it even began. So they got to what was 100 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: then considered Somaliland, the land of the Somali people. And understandably, again, 101 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: these people are not invited into this land and they 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: pose a very obvious danger to the people who live there. 103 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: So they're attacked early on one night, another member of 104 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: their expedition is killed. Speak is stabbed eleven times it's 105 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: really miraculous that he survives. And Burton has a javelin 106 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: thrust through his jaw from cheek to cheek, leaving this 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: great scar down his face. And so it ends right then, 108 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: and they've lost sort of everything that they've put into it, 109 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: and a dispirited they go home. The Crimean War is 110 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: going on. They fight in that for a little bit, 111 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: and then they come back and they regroup and the 112 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: Royal Geographical Society, which is the sort of most revered 113 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: scientific society in England, sets them up again, says okay, 114 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: we're going to form the East African Expedition and we're 115 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: going to send you back again. And that was in 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: eighteen fifty six. So they returned to East Africa. This 117 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: time they decided to start in Zanzibar, and it's just 118 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: outside of Zanzibar that they meet the third main character 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: in this book, City Mubark Bombay. 120 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about mister Bombay, because he 121 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: has a very interesting past before he joins speaking Burton, 122 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: he does so. 123 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: Bombay was kidnapped as a child from his village in 124 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: East Africa and he was dragged hundreds of miles to 125 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: the coast and then taken to Zanzibar where he was 126 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: sold in this slave market there for cloth, and he 127 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: was just about twelve years old at that time. And 128 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: then he was taken to western India where he was 129 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: enslaved for twenty years, and then when the man who 130 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: owned him died, he was given his freedom and he 131 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: made his way back to East Africa and he meets 132 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: Burton and speak there and they're looking to hire reporters 133 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: and translators and guides anybody they can. And it's really 134 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: interesting because both of them write about how the minute 135 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: they met Bombay they knew they had to have him 136 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: on their expedition and they very quickly say, well, okay, 137 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: what's it going to take. You know, he's working for 138 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 2: the sultan and the Sultan's army at that time, They're like, okay, 139 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: you know, what do we need to pay you? What 140 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: do we need to do to convince you to come 141 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: with us on this very long I mean, these expeditions 142 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: took years and very dangerous trip, but he's worth it. 143 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: He's such a fascinating, incredibly capable figure. But also, to me, 144 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: what's so amazing about him is that after all this 145 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: loss and all this personal tragedy. He emerged with this 146 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: incredible kindness, this incredible generosity of spirit, and he really 147 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: was the lynchpin in this expedition and many expeditions to come. 148 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: And it sounds like his story has largely been lost 149 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: to history, is that right? Until you've reintroduced him in 150 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: this narrative, right? 151 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: I mean, you can find him if you read Burton's 152 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: account of these trips. You certainly if you read Speaks 153 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: and some of the other explorers with whom Bombay traveled, 154 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: they do mention him, but to modern day people. I 155 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: worked at National Geographic Magazine for six years, so I 156 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: was steeped in stories about exploration and Africa, and I 157 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: had never heard his name, and I was always interested 158 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 2: in the story about Burton and Speak and the search 159 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 2: for the source of the Nile. But I didn't know 160 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: if I wanted to just tell that story. I thought 161 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: there has to be something more. I know, obviously, the 162 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: people of Africa made these expeditions happen. Without them, there's 163 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: no way anyone would have gotten anywhere right or would 164 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: have survived certainly. And so when I read about City 165 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: Bark Bombay, I realized, Okay, it all makes sense, and 166 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: this is a story I want to try to tell. Well. 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, we've certainly read so many stories of the 168 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: Great White Adventures. You've told those stories, not a Great 169 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: White Adventures. So I'm sure this was a really pleasant 170 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: root for you to go down to have someone of color, 171 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: someone who really was pivotal, but just was one or 172 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: two pages in most of these stories. So that's wonderful, 173 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: thank you. 174 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: And he really is, I believe, the most accomplished explorer 175 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: in the history of African exploration. 176 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: So it would be too simplistic to call Bombay sort 177 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: of a sherpa for these men, because it sounds like 178 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: there was a lot more to his role than just 179 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: being a guide. 180 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and again, if you think about it in terms 181 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: of guides, they're traveling thousands of miles, so they did 182 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: have local guides to help them at certain stages and things. 183 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 2: But yeah, he was a translator. He spoke Arabic, he 184 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: spoke Shy, heally he ends up learning English. He spoke 185 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: Hindustani since he had been living in India. Again and again, 186 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: you know, these people, they're scared, they're exhausted, they're starving. 187 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: Many of the porters fled understandably because it was so difficult, 188 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: and so he's always sort of lifting their spirits and 189 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: keeping them going. And he was just this steady presence 190 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: throughout and somebody we all hope to have in our lives, 191 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: but certainly in a really difficult, dangerous situation like this, 192 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: he was just irreplaceable. 193 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: We go back to Burton and Speak. They've gone on 194 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: this first expedition already, they've met with just total disaster, 195 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: They've both been seriously injured before that expedition. You said 196 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: that Burton had reservations about Speak. Has his opinion changed 197 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: it all based on what happened with that first expedition 198 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: then going into the second one with Bombay. 199 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: No, it really didn't change at all. And if I 200 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: could just tell you a little bit about these two men, 201 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: if that's okay, so you can see how very, very 202 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: different they were. And that was one of the things 203 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: that interested me most about this story. So Richard Burton 204 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: is unbelievably brilliant. So he ends up writing dozens of books, essays, poetry, translations. 205 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: He spoke more than twenty five different languages. He was 206 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: the first Englishman to enter Mecca disguise as a Muslim. 207 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 2: He studied every culture, every religion and respected none. And 208 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 2: he was always kind of considered an outsider in England 209 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: because he had been born in England. His parents were British, 210 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: but he had grown up in the continent, so he 211 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: had moved from France to Italy degreees, picking up languages 212 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: and cultures along the way, and to Britain's he didn't 213 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: really even look British, so he had really black hair 214 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: and black black eyes, and he even It's interesting Bram Stoker, 215 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: who wrote Dracula, who had gone to write Dracula, met 216 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: Burton and was mesmerized by him, and he writes all 217 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: these incredible descriptions of him, including describing his teeth, which 218 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 2: he said were like gleaming daggers. So they think that 219 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: Burton could have been the inspiration for Dracula. And then 220 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 2: you have John Hanning Speak, who is his complete opposite 221 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 2: in almost every way. So he's kind of what Britains 222 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: expect their heroes to be. Right. So he was born 223 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: into the aristocracy, he was a lieutenant and British Army. 224 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: He loved to hunt. While Burton was steeped in books, 225 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: Speak was steeped in hunting, right, And so they're just 226 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: extremely extremely different people. And the issue here is that 227 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: Speake wants to be the commander of the expedition, and 228 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 2: Burton's kind of not aware of it. He's worried about 229 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: a lot of other things, but Speak takes offense at 230 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: the slightest things anything, and he builds up this anger 231 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: and resentment toward Burton. And it's human nature, as we 232 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: often know, a lot of times, admiration, if it goes overboard, 233 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 2: can turn into envy, and envy can turn into resentment, 234 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: and resentment can turn very easily to hatred. And that's 235 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: what happened with these two men, this kind of festering 236 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: bitterness inside of Speak for Burton, his commander. 237 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: So Expedition number two to our do they arrive in 238 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty seven? Is at the time. 239 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: Eighteen fifty six, right, and they're there and yeah, and 240 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: it takes them several years again, so they're crossing all 241 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: the way across Tanzania toward Lake tangan Nika, going westward 242 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 2: into the interior of Africa. And it's incredibly I was there. 243 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: I did research there. I got to see where they traveled, 244 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: and it's amazing how diverse, I mean, you think, Okay, well, 245 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: it's thousands of miles, but it's very You have swamps, 246 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: you have mountains, you have jungles, you have deserts. You 247 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: really kind of have everything. And it's a very very 248 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: difficult and grueling trip. 249 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: Is this two years before the first major incident happens, 250 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: when they're in the anterior of Africa searching for this source. 251 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: That's right, they're searching for the source. So this is 252 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: a couple of years after that first attack, when they're 253 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: in Somaliland and they've regrouped and they're going back in Yeah, 254 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: and they make it all the way to Lake Tanganika, 255 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: but they're also so ill. I mean both men were 256 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: blinded at one point, and so several other members of 257 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: the expedition with eye infections and things. Burton has such 258 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: a severe malaria that he is paralyzed for almost a year. 259 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: He can't walk, he can't hold a pen. Even so 260 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: when they get to Lake Tanganiki, he's so ill. He's 261 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: not even well enough to go to try to find 262 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: boats because they need to try to circumnavigate this lake 263 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: and see if they can find a huge nile like 264 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: river rushing out of it. And they're also they don't 265 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: have enough supplies they're worried about. Then they have to 266 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: turn around and get all the way back, so they're 267 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: just kind of in rags. It's unbelievably difficult. 268 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: So what is this entourage, which you have to of 269 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: course know that their slaves involve carrying these people around, 270 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: What is their entourage like going into this wilderness full 271 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: of multiple terrains. 272 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: So they hire porters, obviously, and they also buy donkeys 273 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: to help them carry. They have just hundreds of pounds 274 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: of supplies that they're trying to carry with them. But again, 275 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: people are deserting along the way understandably, the donkeys are 276 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: dying or running off, and they are people from many 277 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: different groups of people who live in Africa that they've 278 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: hired to try to take along with them. And so 279 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: it's this long, long caravan that just stretches out across 280 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just really cool to imagine it sort 281 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: of stretching out across the landscape. But they're staggering, often 282 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: so so ill they just can't go at all and 283 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: they have to be carried or try to ride a 284 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: donkey or something. It's kind of crazy. 285 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: Other than disease, what is the biggest danger the locals 286 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: or the animals. 287 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, starvation probably is the biggest danger because there are 288 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: people around, and obviously the expedition does pose a potential 289 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: danger to them, and so there is always the danger 290 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: of attack. But really they have to be able to 291 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: negotiate for food. You know, they can't possibly carry enough 292 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: food with them to feed all the men on this expedition, 293 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: so trying to find people pop they can buy food from, 294 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: and bringing the right kinds of currency with them. So 295 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: when they're in Zanzibar, they have to go to the 296 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: market and they have to buy beads, they have to 297 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: buy wire, they have to buy cloth, but they have 298 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: to buy the right kinds of those things because it 299 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: really depends on the group of people that they meet 300 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: what kinds they might want cloth, but they might want 301 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: a certain color of cloth, or a certain quality of cloth, 302 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: or a certain color of beads, and also it changes. 303 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: Sometimes they want white, sometimes they want red, and so 304 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: it's really really hard to know what to bring. Also, 305 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: you have to carry all this stuff too, So maybe 306 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: you've been carrying for one thousand miles all these supplies 307 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: and nobody wants it, and so you have sort of 308 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: worthless currency. And you're starving. 309 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: Is Bombay helpful with all of this information? 310 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's kind of everything. He doesn't know this at 311 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: this point in this first expedition. He doesn't know this 312 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: land very well. And most of the porters really don't 313 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: know a lot of the like Becazerk from the coast, right, 314 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: So they don't know a lot of the land they're 315 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: trekking through. They don't know a lot of the people, 316 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: and sometimes they don't know the languages. But Bombay again 317 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: is sort of the everyman, right and so a lot 318 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: of times it seems I mean, he does get ill, 319 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: but not as often obviously as Burton speaks. So a 320 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: lot of times he's nursing them, he's caring for them. 321 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 2: He needs making sure, really everybody keeps going. 322 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: One of the things I think is interesting about the story, 323 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: which is I think interesting in history, is the amount 324 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: of betrayals and the type of betrayals that happen. And 325 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: there's a betrayal that's getting ready to happen at some point, right, 326 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: so lead us up to what's happening. It sounds like 327 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: Burton is just on death store, right, and speak doesn't 328 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: sound much better. 329 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: Speak's been very very ill but he is recovering, and 330 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 2: Burton is still really ill. So they're coming back from 331 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: Lake tangan Nika, and they know that there's another lake 332 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: that they've been told is even larger, and it's to 333 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: the north. It's in mostly in modern day Uganda, and 334 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: so Speak says, let's go, let's go check that out. 335 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: And Burton is so ill, and again they have very 336 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 2: little supply, and he's worried that they won't even make 337 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 2: it to the coast, much less take this extra expedition north, 338 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: and so Speak says, just let me, let me try. 339 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: You wait here and get better and try to fix 340 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 2: everything that needs to be fixed for the pushback to 341 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: the coast, and let me take Bombay and a few 342 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: other men and go north. And so he does. He 343 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: goes to Lake Nyanza, which is the largest lake in Africa. 344 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: It's the second largest freshwater lake in the world. It's 345 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: just I've been there. It's a mind bendingly huge and 346 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 2: he sees it and he's in the southern part of it, 347 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: and he says, this is it. This is the source 348 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: of the White Nile. I know that it is, even 349 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: though he has absolutely no evidence, no proof, and he's 350 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: only there for a couple of days, but he just 351 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: believes it right, and so he comes back to Burton. 352 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: He's like, guess what this is great? I found the 353 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: source of the nile. And Burton says, maybe maybe you did. 354 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: We don't know, right, and so he says, look, let's 355 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 2: go back to zanza Bar, get better, regroup and let's 356 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: make another push. And Speak is enrage. He is so 357 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 2: insulted that Burton doesn't immediately believe him. So they do 358 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: go back to Zanzibar and Burton needs to stay a 359 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 2: little bit longer to get better and Speaks well enough 360 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: to go on to England and Speak says to Burton, 361 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: don't worry. I won't talk to anybody until you can 362 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: join me back in England, and so Burton says okay, 363 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: but Speak leaves and the day after he gets back 364 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: to London he goes directly to the president of the 365 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: Royal Geographical Society. He says, I've discovered the source of 366 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 2: the White Nile. And the president loves him and it's 367 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: so excited and he's like, Speak, we must send you back. 368 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: So by the time Burton returns, Speak is the hero 369 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: of the hour and Speak has been given the next 370 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: expedition to try to confirm what he believes is the 371 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: source of the Nile. 372 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,239 Speaker 1: Okay, So again simplistic question, how would one confirm that 373 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: this is the source of the Nile without a helicopter? 374 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what actually how would you confirm it? Now? 375 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: Then Nisle rushes out of the northern part of the lake. 376 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: So again Speak on this first trip with Bombay, he 377 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: was at the southern part of it, and I have 378 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: a map in the book so you can see it. 379 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: But again, this is unbelievably huge, huge lakes. So what 380 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: they had to do when Speak went back with this man, 381 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: James Grant and Bombay again, they went all the way 382 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: around the western edge of the lake to the northern 383 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: reaches and saw the nile rushing out of the lake. 384 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: And so there are all kinds of scientific measurements you 385 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: can take, and they took all kinds of instruments, but 386 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: a lot of it was also talking to the people 387 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: who lived there. And it's really interesting because at the 388 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 2: time armchair geographers back in London and gentlemen scientists, oh 389 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: went armchair exactly. There are a lot of them, and 390 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: they were very arrogant and they always poo pooed any 391 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: what they would call native information, right, like, of course 392 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 2: you can't trust information from the people who actually lived there, 393 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: But all these explorers would go there, they knew they 394 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: absolutely had to rely on information from the people who 395 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: live there. And he's just common sense and so Speak 396 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: he interviewed, he talked to everybody he could, and it 397 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: was really great, you know, because this one guy, he 398 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 2: asks how big is a lake? Like how far does 399 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 2: it go? And the guy just keeps waving his hand 400 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: forward again, again and again. He just says it never ends, 401 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: it goes to the end of the world. 402 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: I can just picture Burton's reaction. He finally gets over 403 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: malaria and he returns to England and he reads the 404 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: papers or talks to the head of the Royal Geographical 405 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: Society and finds out that Speak has made this claim 406 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: without him and any kind of acknowledgment of help that 407 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: he got from him. 408 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: Right right. In fact, he is cast as the sort 409 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: of weak and feeble, sort of hobbling behind the heroic Speak. Right. No, 410 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: he's shocked, you know, because again he didn't realize the 411 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: resentment that Speak felt for him, because Speak never expressed 412 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: it until really at the very end of their expedition, 413 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: Speak became very very ill and nearly died, and he 414 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: was in this feverish mania and he kind of spills 415 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: out all of his anger toward Burton. And so until 416 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: that moment, Burton was kind of clueless about how Speak felt, 417 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: and he also didn't understand this burning ambition that Speak had. 418 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: So he gets back and he's just bewildered, and he 419 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: realizes because he's six years younger than Burton. He says this, 420 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: he thinks, to this young man who I sort of 421 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: took under my wing and was mentoring, and I thought 422 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: there was a friendship there, we're not friends. We're rivals. 423 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: I taught him everything I knew and I helped him, 424 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: and now he's my enemy. 425 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: Does Burton try to go to the press and reframe 426 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: the narrative of what happened when he got sick? 427 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: No, he doesn't. I mean, he is interested in his 428 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: own expedition, and he does propose his own expedition to 429 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 2: the Royal Geographical Society and they say, sure, maybe, but 430 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: everybody knows, I mean, even his earlier expedition it was 431 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: woefully underfunded, So there's no way, and they've already committed 432 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: to sending Speak back as the leader of his own 433 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: So there's no way they're going to be able to 434 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 2: afford to do two expeditions, and they're not going to 435 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: want that either, these two rival expeditions to try to 436 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: confirm that the Niances is a source. So in theory 437 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 2: they're like, oh yeah, sure, we'll think about it. And 438 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: Burton's obviously also not really well enough to go back 439 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: quite yet and speak as younger and speak as healthy. 440 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 2: He's ready to go, and he has the support at 441 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: that moment of the Royal Geographical Society. 442 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: So the Nianza is that truly is that the source? 443 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: It is truly the source. So he found it. It 444 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: was luck Well, I will say, Speak was brave and 445 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: he was determined and he was willing to make this 446 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: extra trip, right, but he didn't know. He just guessed. 447 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: And even when he went back with James Grant and 448 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: he saw it rushing out, you really have to circumnavigate 449 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: the entire thing. And it wasn't until years later when 450 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: Henry Morton Stanley went with Bombay and he circumnavigated both 451 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: the Tanganika and the Nyanza and confirmed for sure, for sure, yes, 452 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: this is the source of the White Nile. 453 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: So Speak goes back down with Bombay and you said 454 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: they did something which was smart, which is they talked 455 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: to locals. They confirmed it as well as they could 456 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties, and Speak returns and 457 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: what does he say. He says to the press again, okay, confirmed, 458 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: I solve the mystery? 459 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 3: Is that? 460 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: Right? 461 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: Right? He's this great hero, right, everyone is really really excited. 462 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: The whole world is watching. But then he gets it's 463 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: really really interesting, you know, I think that when somebody 464 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: is so ambitious, and also it's this kind of fatal 465 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: combination of arrogance and insecurity. Right, so he knows that 466 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: he's it's not brilliant like Burton. He hasn't had the 467 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: accomplishments that Burton has had, and so he's always insecure 468 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: about Burton trying to take the limelight back from him, 469 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 2: and he sort of lashes out at people, and he 470 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: even alienates a royal geographical society. So the society obviously 471 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: put everything behind him. They chose him, they gave him 472 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 2: this unbelievable opportunity and they funded it. And he gets 473 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: back and they have this very famous, lauded journal that 474 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: every explorer for them who goes off into the world. 475 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: Then they come back and they write an article for 476 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: this journal. Well Speak decides that instead of giving his 477 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 2: article to the Royal Geographical Society, he's going to give 478 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: it to this publisher, this kind of famous publisher, Blackwood's magazine. 479 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: It's a Scottish publisher, because he feels like, well, I 480 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: want it to be more widely read. You can make 481 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 2: more money from that, get more attention, And the Royal 482 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: Geographical Society is sort of like, what what are you 483 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: doing after we gave you everything? Right? And then also 484 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: he starts criticizing all these other people. It's a long, 485 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: sort of sordid tail, but he definitely alienates everyone. So 486 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: it comes to a point where the Royal Geographical Society 487 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: really doesn't want to have anything to do with either 488 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: of these men. 489 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: So Speak comes back and he says, this is confirmed. 490 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: What has Richard Burton been doing besides seething? Clearly one 491 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: doesn't explorer do in his downtime. 492 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so he is angry and he's depressed. And 493 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: it was interesting about Richard Burton is he always was 494 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 2: at his best when he had a challenge. So even 495 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: after he had some great triumph. That's when he falls 496 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: into this deep depression because it's over. The challenge is over, 497 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 2: and he needs the next push. And so he had 498 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: always believed that I'm always going to have this next 499 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 2: challenge because I need to then go back and find 500 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: the source of the Nile, and he's been denied that. 501 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: One thing he does is he actually comes to the 502 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: United States and he travels around. He goes through most 503 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: of the western United States to Utah, and he studies 504 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 2: some Native American peoples and he writes a book about that. 505 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: He also gets married. He also surprisingly falls in love. 506 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: So there's this really interesting woman named Isabelle Arundel and 507 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: she kind of like speak is very very different from Burton. 508 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 2: So she was raised in the aristocracy to a very strict, 509 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: very religious family, but she dreams of a really adventurous 510 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: life and of freedom. And she says, I wish I 511 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: were a man, because they're all kinds of strictures on 512 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 2: women in Victorian England, all these things that they couldn't do. 513 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: And then she meets Richard Burton and she says, I 514 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 2: would be Richard Burton, but since I can't be Richard Burton, 515 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: I would be his wife, and he falls in love 516 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: with her too, but he's gone and they know each other. 517 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: It takes nine years for him to finally propose. And 518 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: in this nine years, he's going to Mecca, he's going 519 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 2: to aid and he's going to Somaliland and East African. 520 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: He's having all these adventures and she is sort of 521 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: preparing to be his wife. So she's learning how to 522 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: ride a horse, and she's learning how to fence, and 523 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: her dream is that someday she'll be called upon to 524 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: try to save his life. And so she does finally 525 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: in the end, get to travel with him and things, 526 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: but also the dangers of obsession. So she builds her 527 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 2: whole life around his life and becomes incredibly obsessed with him. 528 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to come back to Isabelle because that 529 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: sounds really interesting. Yeah, let's talk about the relationship that 530 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: he had with Speak after these expeditions. So Speak has 531 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: sort of isolated himself from the Royal Geographical Society, which 532 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: sounds to me a little bit like refusing to sit 533 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: down for a presidential portrait, right right? I mean who 534 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: would do that? So he's isolated himself, and Burton doesn't 535 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: have the next great adventure. Do their lives intersect at 536 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: any time before they both die after that. 537 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: They do just so they don't see each other. So 538 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: Speak goes back to Africa. Burton is in the United States, 539 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: and then he's in sort of western Africa. He has 540 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: a consulship and on and on. But then they do 541 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: come back. The Royal Geographical Society has a big conference 542 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: in the summer, and they really want to attract attention, 543 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: and they know that people are most interested in their 544 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: explorers and the real story of the day is this 545 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: search for the source of the Nile. And people have 546 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: been watching this sort of feud between Burton and Speak 547 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: because Burton is still like, well, I really think it's 548 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: a tank, and you can Speaks insisting that it's the Nyanza. 549 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: And so they decide they're going to have what they 550 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 2: end up calling the Great Nile Debate. So they do 551 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: come back and they're going to debate at this big 552 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 2: conference in Bath. 553 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: How would one debate the source of the Noile if 554 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: you don't have photographic evidence or evidence really. 555 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: Well, that's what made it so difficult and painful and 556 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: stressful for Speak, because it's all information, right, It's it's 557 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: all the information that you've gathered and you're speaking to scientists, right, 558 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: are these armchair geographers that we were talking about, and 559 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: also scientists who have been studying this part of the 560 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: world for their whole lives and have very strong beliefs 561 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: one way or another. And so here's Burton who has 562 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: all of this deep, deep knowledge, and he's also a 563 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: famously electric speaker. People love to hear him speak. He's 564 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: fames and he loves a good fight too, right, He 565 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: loves to sort of twist people up into verbal knots. 566 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: And then you have Speak, who's outwardly quiet and modest, 567 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: and Burton, by the way, is an incredibly talented writer 568 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 2: as well, and speaks in any of those things. Speak 569 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: hates writing. He's very very ineffective writer, and he's a 570 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: very very ineffective speaker as well. And again, yes, he 571 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: was there and he was lucky, he was right, but 572 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: he doesn't have any proof, right, and he doesn't really 573 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 2: have the deep knowledge that would take to make his argument. 574 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: So obviously he's intimidated and he feels like he's going 575 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: to be publicly embarrassed. 576 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: Right right. The Royal Geographical Society brings in speakers and 577 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,959 Speaker 2: things and yes, everybody's talking about this issue. And again, 578 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: by this point, Speaker has alienated even Murchison, who was 579 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: the president of the Royal Geographical Society, who believed in 580 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: him so much and gave him the command of the 581 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: next expedition. Even he's alienated. So he's lost a lot 582 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: of friends. So he knows not only does he not 583 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: have what it takes to make this argument, but he 584 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: doesn't really have any friends in the audience. 585 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: So what is Bombay's reaction? Do we know to all 586 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: of this controversy, because he's been there from the beginning 587 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: and he went to all of these expeditions, or at 588 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: least the last two, right. 589 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: No, unfortunately we don't know. I mean, he's still in 590 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 2: East Africa, so he never even though he went on 591 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: all of these expeditions, he never got to go to England. 592 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: And they talked about it at different points, Oh we'll 593 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: have to bring you here, Bombay, but he never did 594 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 2: get to go. So he's living his life and he's 595 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: living his life in East Africa, and so unfortunately we 596 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: don't know sort of what his thoughts were on the 597 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: controversy or if he was even really that aware of 598 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 2: what was going on. So far away in England. 599 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: So in doing a different podcast, I was interviewing someone 600 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: who's an expert in seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds public 601 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: insults and touching a man's nose is akin to making 602 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: fun of his penis, and all this the great duel, 603 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: right right, So I can imagine the egotism that these 604 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: men have, these explorers, and now it's all coming to fruition, 605 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: it's all coming out, and they're going to have this debate, 606 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: and Speak is about to debate someone who obviously is 607 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: more capable than he is, and he already has all 608 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: these doubters. What leads up to this debate that's supposed 609 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: to happen? 610 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: So I would rather not give the whole thing away 611 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: what happens, but I will say so the day before 612 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: the debate, Speak and Burton are both in this hall 613 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: in Bath where the debate is going to take place 614 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: the next day, and they hadn't seen each other from 615 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: more than a year, and they hadn't spoken and all 616 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: that time, and they had had this huge falling out. 617 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: And Isabelle, Burton's wife by then, is with him, and 618 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: she sees and she later writes about what Speak looked 619 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: like She's like, he just looks shocked and sickened. When 620 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: he sees Burton and the two men kind of look 621 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 2: at each other and speak, he quickly stands up and 622 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: he's like, I can't do this, and he rushes off 623 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: and he leaves. He goes to his uncle's estate. So 624 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: his uncle had a state just outside of Bath called 625 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: Neston Park where he would love to hunt, because again, 626 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 2: that's what Speke loved to do. He was really really 627 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: good at it, and that's what he would turn to 628 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: for solace and quote unquote peace for him and was hunting. 629 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: And so he goes there to be with his cousin. 630 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: And there's this sort of shocking, tragic twist to the 631 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: story that happens at Neston Park. 632 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tragedy that happens. What could have changed 633 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: any of this? They seem to be set up with 634 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: being heroes and it's so easy to fail or to 635 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: be questioned or jealousies. This just seems like there's only 636 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: really one way this particular situation would have ended, right. 637 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: I think one of the big lessons at least I 638 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: learned after studying this story for so many years is 639 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: the danger of arrogance and ignorance, which always seem to 640 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 2: go together. They're always kind of hand in hand. So 641 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: there's the arrogance of thinking you can quote unquote discover 642 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 2: a land where millions of people have lived for hundreds 643 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: of thousands of years, and that you can somehow improve 644 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: their lives by taking their land and taking their resources. 645 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: And then there's the danger of this sort of blind 646 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: being envy and resentment right and letting that fester. And 647 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 2: so I think to me, the only way you can 648 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: fix that or prevent it is to bring with you 649 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: some modesty and some humility and an honest approach to 650 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 2: another land and another group of people. And you just 651 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: didn't have that in Victorian Europe or Victorian the United States, 652 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, any of the Western world, and their approach 653 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 2: to anywhere else in the world. What they needed was 654 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: just some humility. 655 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: I think before we talk about Richard Burton and what 656 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: happens with his life, after what happens with Speke, how 657 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: is John Hannen Speke framed in history and nautical history? 658 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: Do you think, well, it's really interesting. So he was 659 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 2: the first European to find the source of the Nile. 660 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 2: But even then he's been largely forgotten. You know, Burton 661 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: is very well remembered today. There are dozens of biographies 662 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: about him, and I think that's just because of the 663 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: force of his personality, because he was just this insane genius, 664 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: you know, and he was just mesmerizing and fascinating and speak. 665 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: There's only one biography that was written about him, and 666 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 2: it was written about one hundred years after his death, 667 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: and there are a few memorials to him, but not 668 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 2: that many people know his name. 669 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: And what about Richard Burton? Did he accomplish anything else? 670 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 2: He really doesn't. And it's really interesting because again what 671 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear, I know, amy he does try. 672 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: It's really interesting the way bitterness can kind of twist 673 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: your heart and really affect your life. And so he's 674 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 2: angry and he ends up he's poor, and he's kind 675 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 2: of largely forgotten and shuttled aside, and the only thing 676 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: he has are his translations. So he starts translating like 677 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 2: the Arabian Knights and the Kama Sutra, which is obviously 678 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 2: scandalizing Victorian England, but they sell really, really well, so people, yeah, 679 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: with their outrage, they're secretly buying it. Right, and so 680 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: he's like, he thinks that's hilarious. Actually, so that is 681 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 2: really his only source of income, and he's given really 682 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 2: sort of out of the way consulships that nobody else wants, 683 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: and he's angry and resentful. But the one thing that 684 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 2: is interesting about Richard Burton, one of the many things 685 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 2: interesting but to me, is at the end of his life, 686 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: near the end, and when he's kind of again, he's 687 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: poor and sort of forgotten. I found this article by 688 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: this American journalist who was well known journalist during the 689 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: Civil War. He's a really smart guy. I went to 690 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: Yale and he's in London and he's rushing off to 691 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 2: a party and he's running up these stairs and he's late. 692 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 2: But he sees this man who's sitting on these stairs 693 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: with a book and a pen in his hand. He's shocked. 694 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 2: He's like, this is Richard Burton, famous Richard Burton. And 695 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 2: Burton looks up at him and he's clearly like coming 696 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: out of a fog because he's been so immersed in 697 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 2: this and he's translating this ancient poem and he describes 698 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 2: Burton and it's like that's who Burton is. He's this 699 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: incredible scholar. Right, there's always this quest for knowledge, whether 700 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: it's going to distant lands or delving deep into literature. 701 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: And that's who he is essentially, and that an end 702 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 2: of his life when he's basically lost everything else, he 703 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: still has that sort of the essence of who he 704 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: is and that can't be taken away. 705 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because I wrote down the phrase the 706 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: inability to adapt, which I think is the doom of 707 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: many people, and I was going to suggest it sounded 708 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: like that that this sort of dream of him with 709 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: a legacy of being an adventurer has gone and he's 710 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: been admired by misery. But it does sound like I'm 711 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: going to cross that out now because it does sound 712 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: like he was able to adapt. He might not have 713 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: been happy, but he didn't totally give up at the end. 714 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 2: Right. Again, that's who he was essentially, again, this quest 715 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: for knowledge. And I loved love that moment and I 716 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: have that in the book because I think that shows 717 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: really who he was. He was genuine, right, he was 718 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: the real deal. Well, Speke wanted to be admired, right, 719 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 2: and Speke wanted to be considered this great hero and everything, 720 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,439 Speaker 2: and he was brave but Burton was the real deal. 721 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: Burton's knowledge was earned. He did go to Oxford, but 722 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 2: he was bored there. He was bullied, and he figured 723 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: out a way to be expelled. And so everything else. 724 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 2: All these languages he learns, all these like he could 725 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 2: recite a quarter of the Koran. He genuinely studied everything 726 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 2: and immersed himself in it. And he had this once 727 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 2: in a century mind. He was a genius. He was 728 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 2: genuinely a genius. 729 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: Do you think that he felt in his heart that 730 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: his legacy had been stolen from him by speak? Just 731 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: what happened at the end? 732 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: I think he did, and no one was more shocked 733 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: and grief stricken when Speke dies and he says, speaks, 734 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: death has silenced us both. So now he feels like 735 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 2: I can't talk about it anymore either. I can't defend 736 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: myself anymore either. He does eventually go on and try 737 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: to do it, but as I said, this sort of 738 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 2: this enmity ends up destroying both men. 739 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: So tell me you did a little tease with Isabelle, 740 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: Burton's wife, who seems to really idolize him, which is dangerous. 741 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: But she also has a commitment to religious is she 742 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: Church of England. 743 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: She's Catholic. She's Catholic, and so she yeah, interestingly, even 744 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 2: though she was from the aristocracy, they were kind of 745 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 2: on the outsiders as well because of their Catholicism. But 746 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: she as a fervent believer, and Burton his entire life 747 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 2: was an open and adamant agnostic. He's like, I'm interested 748 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,479 Speaker 2: in every single religion, but I don't believe in any 749 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: of them, And she keeps trying to convert him, and 750 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 2: even when he dies, she brings in a priest when 751 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 2: he's dying to try to give him last rites. Even 752 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 2: the priest is like, I know he's not Catholic, and 753 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: I know I don't think he would want that, And 754 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 2: she begs and begs, and she insists on a Catholic 755 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 2: funeral for him. It's super super important to him. And 756 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 2: then she goes to this very tragic, especially to anybody 757 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 2: who's interested in the story, this very tragic step farther 758 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: and what she believes is going to take to save 759 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 2: her husband's soul. 760 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: So, ultimately, we've talked about this before. This is a 761 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: story about adventurers, egotism getting in the way, a lack 762 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: of collaboration, a lack of common sense in a lot 763 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: of these ways. And I think, especially if we come 764 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: back to Bombay, just lost history, right, people who have 765 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: for centuries not been given credit for huge things that 766 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: have been found, the discoveries that have changed the world. 767 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: Where you have just generations of people who have been 768 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: lost in history, right. 769 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 2: And that's not just advocates, many many other parts of 770 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: the world where Europeans would send explorers and relied so 771 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 2: heavily on the people who live there. And I will say, 772 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 2: though it's interesting, I mean, I want to make it clear, 773 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 2: I'm certainly not the first by any means to point 774 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 2: this out and to try to bring this to people's attention. 775 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 2: And I'll give credit to the Royal Geographical Society because 776 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 2: even though obviously at the time they weren't really interested. 777 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 2: I mean, they did actually give Bombay a metal and 778 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 2: they a few other of the really well known guides 779 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 2: did give them medals and gave them some stiplens. It 780 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: wasn't until kind of recently that the Royal Geographical Society said, 781 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 2: you know, we really need to acknowledge the role that 782 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 2: these people played in mapping their own continents. So they 783 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 2: have had exhibits and things about this. So they are 784 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 2: trying to fill in that record and right those wrongs. 785 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: Do we have any idea what happened with Bombay? 786 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? So he lived to be about sixty five years old, 787 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 2: and he was able to achieve what neither Burton nor 788 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 2: Speaker able to do, even though they had all the advantages, 789 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 2: all the resources, all this ambition to do it. But 790 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 2: he again was able to go in all these expeditions 791 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 2: and I believe became one of, if not the most 792 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: widely traveled man in Africa at that time. He traveled 793 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 2: his whole continent, as I said, from east to west, 794 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 2: and contributed in a very serious, very significant way to 795 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: the mapping of his homeland. 796 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, the hosts of 797 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: the podcast Red Handed discuss notorious murderers and their motivations. 798 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 3: I think what so often happens in true crime is 799 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,879 Speaker 3: that when there are couple killers, which is rare, I'll 800 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 3: go to, is that, oh, actually, the women must be 801 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 3: under the spell of this horrendous man. I don't think 802 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 3: that's color at all. I think we are trained to 803 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 3: perceive women as being so submissive that they couldn't possibly 804 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 3: have the idea on their own. I think we're too 805 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 3: quick to write women off as drivers of violent crime. 806 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 807 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked 808 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked. 809 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,959 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 810 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 811 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 812 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: right tenfold War media production. The producer is Axsmirosi. Our 813 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 1: mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. 814 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. 815 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 816 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 817 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 818 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: tenfold More and If you know of a historical crime 819 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in 820 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. 821 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 822 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 1: Wicked Words