Speaker 1: Media.
Speaker 2: Something strange is going on.
Speaker 1: Another member of the Russian elite has been found dead.
Speaker 1: Reports suggests that he fell out of a window, poisoned
Speaker 1: with mushrooms.
Speaker 2: Died of heart failure, died.
Speaker 1: Of carbon monoxide poisoning. How comes you are they?
Speaker 2: Dozens of Russian oligachs, politically motivated millionaires have died in
Speaker 2: the space for three years, most of them in suspicious circumstances.
Speaker 2: Many have hidden links to the Kremlin. This is sad
Speaker 2: Oligach season two, an ongoing investigation into these recently dead
Speaker 2: Russian power brokers. Sad Oligach is created by me Jake
Speaker 2: Hanrahan and my Ukrainian colleague, Sergey Slipchenkong. This is a
Speaker 2: H eleven studio and Coolso Media production. We're now halfway
Speaker 2: through season two of sad Oligach, so this episode is
Speaker 2: an interlude of sorts. As you can probably imagine, the
Speaker 2: work that goes into this project is absolutely massive. We're
Speaker 2: knackerd We're essentially fighting an uphill battle against Kremlin state media,
Speaker 2: FSB interference and a huge Russian wall of silence. It's
Speaker 2: all become extremely difficult to navigate, especially for season two.
Speaker 2: We also don't have the resources to spend months on
Speaker 2: the ground in Russia. I actually can't even go to
Speaker 2: the country, and as a proud Ukrainian, Surgery is of
Speaker 2: course not about to jump on a flight to Moscow.
Speaker 2: So for this interlude, we want to share with you
Speaker 2: some of the behind the scenes struggles of what you
Speaker 2: could call the sad Oligach extended universe. Now, this is
Speaker 2: not to be like, oh for us. The point I'm
Speaker 2: making is things have shifted massively since when we first
Speaker 2: started reporting on this in twenty twenty two to twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. I think that in itself is a big
Speaker 2: indicator of what's going on with this possible deep state
Speaker 2: Russian conspiracy to take out perceived enemies of the state.
Speaker 2: So me and Surgery sat down to discuss all of
Speaker 2: this going forward. When we first started this project two
Speaker 2: years ago or now, it definitely was not easy, but
Speaker 2: I feel like it was a lot easier perhaps than
Speaker 2: it is now. This second season, it's just been chaos,
Speaker 2: trying to dig into stuff. Add one and two together.
Speaker 2: It's been a lot. What would you say has been
Speaker 2: the hardest part this series? Like, what's been more difficult
Speaker 2: than it was previously.
Speaker 1: Honestly, it's like it almost seems like people are maybe
Speaker 1: tired of this or bored of it in a sense,
Speaker 1: like it lost its novelty or something. Because a lot
Speaker 1: of these stories I'm looking at, like articles, like even
Speaker 1: like English media or like Western media and Russian media,
Speaker 1: it almost seems like they're it's like lost its novelty again, right,
Speaker 1: a lot less details. I mean, with all of these stories,
Speaker 1: there's practically no updates at all. It's usually like, oh,
Speaker 1: like the guy hung himself and yeah, there's no updates.
Speaker 1: You know, with the previous stories, like so the first
Speaker 1: season was like what twenty two the deaths were from
Speaker 1: like twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, right, there was
Speaker 1: a bit more details. They would dig in a bit more.
Speaker 1: You'd get maybe like oh, like the police were investigating,
Speaker 1: and like the case is open and they're doing something.
Speaker 1: Now it just seems to be like the bare minimum.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this person was working at this office,
Speaker 1: they did this thing, and now they're dead. It's really
Speaker 1: like it's almost like a little blurb at this point.
Speaker 1: And you know, on one hand, you could say maybe
Speaker 1: some of the deaths are less notable. You know, we
Speaker 1: had like Pregosion, we had like Rapaport, like these big
Speaker 1: profile cases, but we've had some pretty big profile cases
Speaker 1: in the second season as well. So it's not to
Speaker 1: say that like, oh, these people are less interesting or
Speaker 1: less important, like I would say, you know, it depends
Speaker 1: on the case by case, but some of these people
Speaker 1: are just as big as the previous cases we covered.
Speaker 1: But the information is just really hard to find. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's you know, intentional censoring or kind
Speaker 1: of like the government being more the Russian government being
Speaker 1: more kind of like maybe kind of like selective with
Speaker 1: what to announce, on what to say, or maybe it's
Speaker 1: just a genuine kind of like getting tired of it
Speaker 1: kind of thing, right, like a fatigue. But the overall
Speaker 1: effect is there's just way less information, way less details.
Speaker 1: I feel like the most details I find is independent
Speaker 1: like telegram channels posting stuff. Maybe people who were like
Speaker 1: walking by it like a like a death right, like
Speaker 1: some citizens came over and filmed it and then they
Speaker 1: send it to a telegram channel. Like that's where I
Speaker 1: find the most information. Like the the guy that like
Speaker 1: allegedly shut himself with a shotgun that was only because
Speaker 1: somebody stopped behind his car and like filmed it, right,
Speaker 1: and that's all I was kind of that was like
Speaker 1: the epitome of the reporting that we saw from that.
Speaker 1: The actual news outlets didn't they get into anything past that,
Speaker 1: and it's just kind of tough finding anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's fatigue Ukraine fatigue, which I
Speaker 2: think is a knock on effective it And I say
Speaker 2: that and I don't mean it that way because it
Speaker 2: sounds brutal, but unfortunately, I think the way the press is,
Speaker 2: especially with war and conflict, it will focus wholeheardly on
Speaker 2: something that they feel people will read and get clicks on,
Speaker 2: as opposed to what information should we be letting the world? No,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I feel like there's a
Speaker 2: very big shift in journalism in general in that way.
Speaker 2: And I feel like there was a lot of attention
Speaker 2: on Ukraine of course for the first year, massively rightly so,
Speaker 2: and then the second year at Wayne and now I
Speaker 2: feel like it's even less and hand in hand, yeah,
Speaker 2: the press is definitely a lot less interested. I don't know,
Speaker 2: do you think it may be linked to that? It
Speaker 2: feels like that to.
Speaker 1: Me, it could definitely be an. I mean, it can
Speaker 1: entirely blame them. It's like the first time Ukraine hit
Speaker 1: a I don't know, like something in Crimea, or when
Speaker 1: it invaded Kursk, right, Like those are exciting things, new things,
Speaker 1: but if you look at it, like if you follow
Speaker 1: with day by day, it's a lot of the same
Speaker 1: kind of happening, Like how many times can you say,
Speaker 1: you know that Ukraine hit oil refinery in Russia. A
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know where it is. They just
Speaker 1: hear like a different city or maybe like a target,
Speaker 1: like the target was a far distance away, so that's interesting.
Speaker 1: But other than that, it's you know, it's really kind
Speaker 1: of same thing over and over again, like how many
Speaker 1: times can you report on it? And I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of what's happening here. You know, another guy thought
Speaker 1: out the window, another person hung themselves, and especially with
Speaker 1: them giving so little details, it's almost like they wanted
Speaker 1: to be boring, like as boring and uninteresting as possible, right,
Speaker 1: And I think it's like the only thing that's changing
Speaker 1: is the names basically maybe the name of the city
Speaker 1: and then maybe like one or two details around it
Speaker 1: even like you remember some of the first that's we'd
Speaker 1: have a death and there would be a note, and
Speaker 1: we'd have like a picture of the note or at
Speaker 1: least that transcribing of the note written out. Now it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: he left the note, but let's say we don't know
Speaker 1: what they wrote. They kind of don't publish that anymore.
Speaker 1: It almost seems like they kind of like don't want
Speaker 1: attention on it, and like they kind of want to
Speaker 1: kill the interest before it kind of gets out there
Speaker 1: and people start looking into it more.
Speaker 2: I think you're right, but I think regarding the Ukraine thing,
Speaker 2: it's almost a problem with the media not necessarily what's happening.
Speaker 2: You are right, like, there's only so many times you
Speaker 2: can say this front line got breached and blah blah.
Speaker 2: Unless you're like kind of you know, kind of conflict
Speaker 2: anoraks as we are. It's not that interesting to your
Speaker 2: average person. However, there are so many stories within that
Speaker 2: that could be told. You know, I know so many
Speaker 2: reporters that are out there finding really interesting human stories.
Speaker 2: You know, Granny is on the front line. She's turned
Speaker 2: her house into like a makeshift hospital for soldiers, and
Speaker 2: you know, stuff like this, and I feel unfortunately there's
Speaker 2: a lot less funding for that style of reporting. I
Speaker 2: think the two go hand in hand. It's kind of
Speaker 2: not enough shocking new things are happening, but there's also
Speaker 2: not the resources to tell the more deeper stories out there.
Speaker 2: For example, I can't see anyone else would have done,
Speaker 2: you know, like I did with Frontline Huligan when we
Speaker 2: were out there trying to find out, you know, what
Speaker 2: was the makeup of the territorial forces, which obviously, by
Speaker 2: the time we finished editing, the war had fully stied.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's two things going on there. But
Speaker 2: definitely the side of things with the media is crazy.
Speaker 2: For example, when we did like episode one of season
Speaker 2: one that we did so Vasilli Melnikov, the guy who
Speaker 2: allegedly murdered his old family and killed himself Nizgy Novgorod,
Speaker 2: that very nice area in Moscow where a lot of
Speaker 2: these oligs actually had strange deaths. You know, there was
Speaker 2: so many details, Like you said, there was I think
Speaker 2: there was a note with that. There was the knife
Speaker 2: that he allegedly did it with. There were scenes photos
Speaker 2: from the crime scene. There was even one of the
Speaker 2: other deaths where the guy had you know, cut his
Speaker 2: wrists and he was in the bath and there was
Speaker 2: even images from the bathroom this season. I don't know
Speaker 2: about you. Obviously were halfway through, but we've done a
Speaker 2: lot of research already for the rest of it. I
Speaker 2: haven't seen a single crime scene photo regarding any of
Speaker 2: these deaths. I've not even seen a photo of evidence
Speaker 2: of what happens. At best, we get some kind of
Speaker 2: long range show of like authorities pulling a body out
Speaker 2: of somewhere. Maybe okay, now it's time for a quick outbreak,
Speaker 2: all right, not for that, now back to the shore.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's been a kind of concerted effort,
Speaker 2: maybe straight from the Kremlin. I mean, the press is
Speaker 2: mostly controlled by the Kremlin, so maybe they kind of
Speaker 2: understand not to but I do feel like there's almost
Speaker 2: a concerted effort to be like, right, we're going to
Speaker 2: continue if this is what happening, which I think it's clear,
Speaker 2: is we're going to continue taking out people that mess
Speaker 2: with the state mostly. I think this kind of points
Speaker 2: back to stealing and spying. We're going to take them
Speaker 2: out the way we do it, but there's going to
Speaker 2: be a lot less details. I don't know, am I
Speaker 2: being paranoid.
Speaker 1: I know, I think that's right. Like as you mentioned
Speaker 1: with Melnico, No, it was the very first one call
Speaker 1: his name, but yeah, he's the guy that was in
Speaker 1: the gas Promb's nest. Right that episode, we had a
Speaker 1: photo not of the bathtub. We had a photo of
Speaker 1: him next to the bathtub, right like clearly a crime
Speaker 1: scene photo. He's laying on the floor. I believe it
Speaker 1: was face down. You can see the cast on his
Speaker 1: leg that they attributed, like that he was in too
Speaker 1: much pain and that's why he did it. We have
Speaker 1: like a full on photo of him laying there like
Speaker 1: clearly dead, you know, on the floor, Like the crime
Speaker 1: scene is right there. It's not like it's not like
Speaker 1: a distance photo or anything like. It's it had to
Speaker 1: have been taken by like I assume some kind of
Speaker 1: you know, like police examiner, like crime scene investigat or
Speaker 1: something like that. We had that online within like the day,
Speaker 1: if if not like hours, you know, And then like
Speaker 1: you said in the in this recent instances, the only
Speaker 1: time we see a crime scene is if the public
Speaker 1: posts it. We don't see anything like extra like there's
Speaker 1: no police like statements or posts about it. It's all
Speaker 1: very like we're just investigating, like we're investigating. Usually they
Speaker 1: say there's no criminal like element or whatever, and that's it,
Speaker 1: and then like like finding updates has been hell, I
Speaker 1: can't find anything. The only thing that's like posted, like
Speaker 1: besides the like breaking news story or like, oh, this
Speaker 1: person died, it's always like, oh, Russian oligarchs are dying
Speaker 1: and here's a list of them. Were just like regurgitating
Speaker 1: the information we already have. Like there's barely any updates,
Speaker 1: barely anything kind of being followed up on. Can't find
Speaker 1: any like maybe like police or like like kind of
Speaker 1: like government like statements or reports. Nothing comes up in
Speaker 1: a sense, maybe they just don't want it to come up, right,
Speaker 1: let's kind of like it happened, let's let's forget about it.
Speaker 1: Let's not bring attention to it. We don't want want
Speaker 1: people asking questions. Yeah, I think it's just like again,
Speaker 1: I don't think you're being crazy. It's it's pretty obvious
Speaker 1: that the information is very limited. I mean Russia does
Speaker 1: this with other avenues, you know, with the war. If
Speaker 1: you're talking about how the army is struggling, or if
Speaker 1: the government's not doing enough for the military or whatever,
Speaker 1: like that's a big no no. So why wouldn't the
Speaker 1: same apply to you know, potentially government sponsored or you know,
Speaker 1: ordered murders and stuff like they definitely would have want that.
Speaker 1: It's like, why would you want to write you don't
Speaker 1: want to kind of like people know if that's enough
Speaker 1: for them to know, you don't need to have all
Speaker 1: the details of who, how and all that.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much luck you've had in Russian,
Speaker 2: and I know you say you're not fine a lot,
Speaker 2: but even updates from series one I in English, I
Speaker 2: have not found anything. I even tried to reach out
Speaker 2: again to Vasily Melnikov's son, if you remember, he was
Speaker 2: kind of shouting off online saying like my dad didn't
Speaker 2: kill himself. I'm pretty sure the state did this. And
Speaker 2: before I reached out to him, like I found him
Speaker 2: via LinkedIn and then via Facebook. Nothing, just just absolutely zero.
Speaker 2: He's gone completely silent. What about Russian? In Russian, if
Speaker 2: you found like anything from any of the guys from
Speaker 2: season one.
Speaker 1: Nope, again, so pretty much just like here's what happened,
Speaker 1: the death happened, and that's it, and just radio silence
Speaker 1: after that. After trying for quite a few days to
Speaker 1: just find anything. I thought, like, you know, well, Russia,
Speaker 1: like okay, let's say they're suppressing it, right, Like, but
Speaker 1: what about the Western cases? I looked into those, so
Speaker 1: like there was like the Protestenia what was like triple
Speaker 1: homicide suicide where he killed his wife and daughter in Spain.
Speaker 1: Then there was Dan Rapaport who fell out of his
Speaker 1: apartment in Washington, d C. Who else is Zeleno Zeleanov?
Speaker 1: He died in France where he like tripped over his
Speaker 1: railing and like hit his head on the car or whatever.
Speaker 1: No updates pretty much for Rapaport. I found that, like
Speaker 1: his investigation was, it's basically so like it's open, but
Speaker 1: they're not investigating it unless something new comes up. So
Speaker 1: they can't close it officially because they don't have a
Speaker 1: specific manner of death. So at this time it's like
Speaker 1: undetermined and the death is listed as sudden or unexplained.
Speaker 1: And the report from the chief Medical Examiner, so this
Speaker 1: was in November, a few months after his death in
Speaker 1: August twenty twenty two. I believe it says multiple blunt
Speaker 1: force injuries due to a fall from height, Like that's it,
Speaker 1: like he fell out of his apartment. That's it. They
Speaker 1: and they have this like conclusion, but they also don't
Speaker 1: have a definitive answer. So because of that, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like a limbo. Apparently the case is open, but
Speaker 1: it's not being investigated, so they also don't have like
Speaker 1: so it's not closed, so you can't access the details
Speaker 1: of the investigation because it's technically ongoing. So it's kind
Speaker 1: of stuck in this limbo where nobody can access it,
Speaker 1: but nobody's investigating it, so which is kind of weird.
Speaker 1: I could also find an update that his wife was
Speaker 1: allegedly looking to do like a because you say, like
Speaker 1: a personal investigation. She ordered his blood to be tested
Speaker 1: for like texacology report to kind of I guess see
Speaker 1: maybe he was at very at least maybe he was drunk,
Speaker 1: or if he has something in a system. But there
Speaker 1: was no updates since it was just like a mention
Speaker 1: that she wanted to do that, and she I think
Speaker 1: it was like immediately after his death she was very
Speaker 1: very certain that there's no way that it was a suicide.
Speaker 1: And then but that was really the only case where
Speaker 1: I could find updates even in the West. There was
Speaker 1: another one in UK. Was it Michael Watford. I think
Speaker 1: his name is same thing. No updates. A lot of these, interestingly,
Speaker 1: are ruled like suicides and they're closed, so there is
Speaker 1: no way of investigating it further, right, because they're kind
Speaker 1: of they kind of kind of like a close and shutcase,
Speaker 1: so there's no really like like they're not intending to
Speaker 1: follow up on it at least seems like they just
Speaker 1: rule it a suicide and the case is closed.
Speaker 2: How I'm stronger the press over there right now, it's
Speaker 2: gotten worse, I reckon, like, I don't think there's any
Speaker 2: real room for independent media out there. Is that, and
Speaker 2: even when there is, they still know, like we can
Speaker 2: get this close to the edge, but we can't go
Speaker 2: over it. It's still kind of self censorship. Just in case.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not even just the media. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think yesterday on Twitter or an X, people were
Speaker 1: posting photos of a new Russian history book where they're
Speaker 1: talking about the Special Military Operation, how it started because
Speaker 1: NATO has biolabs in Ukraine, right, all this kind of
Speaker 1: like propaganda that they've used to justify it. I mean,
Speaker 1: if it's coming into history books, right, if they're willing
Speaker 1: to kind of spread that lie in their official like
Speaker 1: I think it was a Grade eleven or something. History
Speaker 1: books and the media is known to be on the
Speaker 1: very strict tight control. The narrative is typically very like
Speaker 1: manufactured and decided on by the state, Like I don't
Speaker 1: see why they wouldn't also control this narrative, right, And again,
Speaker 1: it's not even controlling it. There's just no information. It's
Speaker 1: not like it's not like there's a wealth of information
Speaker 1: that is out there and they're trying to suppress it,
Speaker 1: like itses doesn't come to begin with, Like I'm finding
Speaker 1: it really hard to find stuff for the new cases
Speaker 1: and basically no updates on old cases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've found as well people are a lot less
Speaker 2: interested in talking about it. So I've been trying, you know,
Speaker 2: I've been reaching out to people like hey, can I
Speaker 2: get like an opinion on this or someone from an
Speaker 2: area will say yeah, sure, but I'm not going on
Speaker 2: the record, you know, Like there's just not like even
Speaker 2: people that are not necessarily attached, people that are not
Speaker 2: even in Russia. It's almost like there's this kind of
Speaker 2: understanding now that this shit is happening, and people don't
Speaker 2: want to be involved. I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 2: maybe that might be because it's not just oligarchs now right. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the kind of sad oligarch monika is because a lot
Speaker 2: of oligarchs were falling out of windows and the state
Speaker 2: was saying, oh, they were just depressed, or the police
Speaker 2: were saying they would depressed. Oh yeah, hah, sad oligarch.
Speaker 2: But of course there's a lot of people that are
Speaker 2: maybe not necessarily in the bracket of oligach, but they
Speaker 2: are definitely political, their power brokers, they're attached to the state.
Speaker 2: It feels as if they're going to go for anybody.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if it's a thing
Speaker 2: of connecting dots that you see or if it's actually
Speaker 2: happening that way. But the recent one, for example, the
Speaker 2: old fella that died from the mushroom poisoning attached to
Speaker 2: Ross Cosmos. There seems to be a lot of tension
Speaker 2: around that example. We did the last episode. Okay, it
Speaker 2: wasn't Ross Cosmos but a parent company. There was also
Speaker 2: a hell of a lot of corruption going on, several
Speaker 2: people there dying arrested. No one's saying anything. I feel like,
Speaker 2: if my theory is true, I feel like the state
Speaker 2: is using this kind of deep state possibly FSB attacks
Speaker 2: on their critics or their people next to them that
Speaker 2: aren't behaving. Okay, now it's time for a quick ad break.
Speaker 2: Well enough for that, Now back to the shore. I
Speaker 2: feel like it's extending further, Like the to pus, his
Speaker 2: legs are gone from oil and weapons to other industries
Speaker 2: that the state controls. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think I think it'd be several things. Like,
Speaker 1: first of all, you know, when we initially started that
Speaker 1: oligarch made sense because what brought attention was oligarchs and
Speaker 1: people who were more so like easier defined as oligarchs, right,
Speaker 1: And that was kind of the start of like what
Speaker 1: brought our attention to it to begin with. And they
Speaker 1: were like I think I would say like ninety percent
Speaker 1: of them were definitely like just playing all oligarchs. And
Speaker 1: it's not to say that maybe there were like suspicious
Speaker 1: that's happening before that, right, but they kind of brought
Speaker 1: that spotlight onto it the war in Ukraine, and then
Speaker 1: like all of these deaths happening suddenly. I'm sure like
Speaker 1: there were deaths of like minor or smaller kind of
Speaker 1: like maybe see eos or kind of these like scientists
Speaker 1: that happened, but maybe nobody noticed, right, and then this
Speaker 1: attention was brought onto it. Even when I'm working on
Speaker 1: these different cases, I'm like, well, does this person count
Speaker 1: is an oligarch? Right? Like this does he even count?
Speaker 1: Should he be included? I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: it's like if they're tied to the state, and if
Speaker 1: their deaths are really sus suspicious, it's like, I think
Speaker 1: it's worth looking into it. I think part of it
Speaker 1: could be that, like before the war in Ukraine, there
Speaker 1: was like an illusion of what a great state Russia is,
Speaker 1: you know, second and greatest military like economic powerhouse by
Speaker 1: its own kind of like that's what it saw itself.
Speaker 1: I think most people didn't see it that way, but
Speaker 1: Russia wanted to be or at least pretend to be right.
Speaker 1: And then I think the failed invasion of Ukraine now
Speaker 1: reaching it, like the three Day operation going into like
Speaker 1: the third fourth year, I think it kind of shattered
Speaker 1: that illusion for the world. But I also think I
Speaker 1: think maybe Putin thought that there really were you know,
Speaker 1: like they were going to go in in three days.
Speaker 1: Like I think he might have believed that because you know,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna tell putin Dada. Oh yeah, Actually our
Speaker 1: military has been corrupt and I've been sealing money from you.
Speaker 1: There's probably a lot of bullshit of like the reports
Speaker 1: being sent forward, right, And I think I think the
Speaker 1: case we talked about last with the zelenorghs and the
Speaker 1: well what is it called Reshetnev, Like, I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of it's a good case study for the overall
Speaker 1: situation because this kind of corruption is kind of like
Speaker 1: you know, taking some money off the top from the budget.
Speaker 1: That's very common, and that's just very like standard practice almost,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think maybe after seeing these failings continually,
Speaker 1: you know, continue failing in Ukraine. But also like there
Speaker 1: were reports definitely in the beginning of the war and
Speaker 1: like thing this second year. I don't see it as
Speaker 1: much now, but like that a lot of like equipment
Speaker 1: wasn't up to standard. A lot of things were like
Speaker 1: tanks were like fixed and fitted out to you know,
Speaker 1: to operate on paper. But then when you go to
Speaker 1: the storage, they're all rusting away and the money that
Speaker 1: was allocated for that is in somebody's bank account, right.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that is being kind of
Speaker 1: like I think the government itself is kind of finding
Speaker 1: out just the scale of the corruption and like money
Speaker 1: just kind of sinking, and now that they actually need
Speaker 1: this money, they kind of need every penny to count
Speaker 1: at this point, right, Like they're clearly struggling against Ukraine,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, they're making advances, but like how much soldiers
Speaker 1: are they're losing, how much money are they spending into this.
Speaker 1: I think at this point they need every penny to
Speaker 1: count kind of thing. And I think this is where
Speaker 1: they come in and they're like okay, like for example,
Speaker 1: again going back to Shetny of like okay, we have
Speaker 1: this company that's supposed to do our satellites, it's supposed
Speaker 1: to help with our targeting, and fifty million rubles just
Speaker 1: went to some bullshit media company. You know. I think
Speaker 1: they can't sustain this kind of corruption at this point,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what we're seeing, Like how they
Speaker 1: send somebody from Moscow instead of this seventy year old
Speaker 1: guy who was there for I think it was like
Speaker 1: two decades. Like he's clearly not doing his job. He's
Speaker 1: part of the corruption. We need to like they're like
Speaker 1: stealing the holes in the boat right, they're they're kind
Speaker 1: of leaking, they're gonna they're they're not getting their results
Speaker 1: they want, and they need to patch it up. I
Speaker 1: think that's kind of what we're seeing here, and I
Speaker 1: think that can apply to multiple cases. I just think
Speaker 1: this shading of case was kind of the most most
Speaker 1: kind of like out there, Like we have the court filings,
Speaker 1: we're seeing that, like multiple people are getting either arrested
Speaker 1: or under criminal investigations for stealing money, and like a
Speaker 1: very open and clear case of what's happening. But there's
Speaker 1: no way that that's a unique case or like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like a once in a million kind of thing,
Speaker 1: Like this is pretty standard across Russia. And I think
Speaker 1: they're realizing that they can't keep you know, this war
Speaker 1: and keep their economy going with all this corruption, and
Speaker 1: they're trying to fix it up. And I guess maybe
Speaker 1: some of the ways of fixing it is getting rid
Speaker 1: of some people who you know, like kind of worked
Speaker 1: against the state, Like it's trees and right, kind of
Speaker 1: stealing money, delivering goods that aren't good and just delivering
Speaker 1: like on pay You're like, yeah, yeah, everything's good, we
Speaker 1: have this. I don't know, like weapons system, or we
Speaker 1: have these I have this like munition, and then you
Speaker 1: get delivery and it's half missing, or it's or it's
Speaker 1: like rotting or you know, like old stuff that know
Speaker 1: what you paid for. I think it's catching up to
Speaker 1: them and they're trying to kind of clear house.
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly what's happening in my so on
Speaker 2: my notes, so I got like pretty much the same theory. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, again, this is a theory we don't know
Speaker 2: for some but I feel like if you look at
Speaker 2: the way Putin insulated himself with s men right again,
Speaker 2: he didn't I mean, okay, three days, four days, whatever
Speaker 2: the actual thing was, they essentially did not think this
Speaker 2: would happen. And I don't think anyone thought this would happen.
Speaker 2: I saw some smart, respected journalists and analysts at the
Speaker 2: time being like, wow, Ukraine has been invaded. It's all
Speaker 2: over and lo and behold. You know, Ukraine fought back,
Speaker 2: of course, with a lot of help from the West,
Speaker 2: but Ukraine has really held it up. Things will look
Speaker 2: bad on the front lines. I've got friends out there,
Speaker 2: and things are doing very badly on the front not
Speaker 2: necessarily just because of Russian firepower, often because of corruption
Speaker 2: on the front lines as well on the Ukrainian side,
Speaker 2: but that's another story. But things are bad, but still
Speaker 2: they are resisting, they're still holding up. And Putin has
Speaker 2: made a you know, a really miscalculated move here, and
Speaker 2: I really do believe that it's because people told him like,
Speaker 2: it's all going to go fine. This is always the
Speaker 2: quandary of the tyrant. If you act like a tyrant,
Speaker 2: people around you are scared to tell you what's really
Speaker 2: going to happen because they don't want to fall out
Speaker 2: of favor. And I really think that's what's happened. We've
Speaker 2: seen Putin get rid of certain corporal, certain military men
Speaker 2: that would have been helping them. We saw the absolute
Speaker 2: madness with a progosion who you know got toasted in
Speaker 2: the plane. Well, an accident. We all know what happened there.
Speaker 2: It's very clear. We covered it in season one. And
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think he's kind of got
Speaker 2: to a point where he's gone, right, this is not
Speaker 2: how it was meant to go. He's reshuffled things. He said,
Speaker 2: let me look at this, let me look at that.
Speaker 2: And again, you're right, people that were maybe within an
Speaker 2: industry like Russia. Nev like, oh, it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: satellite systems. Glossnos, it's like the GPS system. They're not
Speaker 2: necessarily directly thinking about the soldiers on the front line
Speaker 2: that are invade in Ukraine. However, Putin will be, people
Speaker 2: attached to him will be if they look, oh right,
Speaker 2: this this satellite business that is meant to be creating
Speaker 2: a good radar for our soldiers. Oh, there's literally billions
Speaker 2: of rubles have gone. Literally almost a billion dollars in fact,
Speaker 2: was essentially pilled for the way. No one really knows
Speaker 2: where it's all gone. Several people have been arrested involved there,
Speaker 2: as we know. The head of account at Rashiat Nev
Speaker 2: committed suicide, maybe by proxy, maybe someone got to him.
Speaker 2: And it's that thing where well, yeah, you're essentially now
Speaker 2: stopping your country winning the war. That's what could be
Speaker 2: in his mind. This is so bad, this corruption is
Speaker 2: so bad that you're directly involved in stopping the country
Speaker 2: winning the war. Of course they're not winning the war
Speaker 2: because of many different factors. But if you are the
Speaker 2: kind of tirant minded megalomaniac that I think it's clear
Speaker 2: Pooting is again most Western leaders are the same, just
Speaker 2: from a different avenue. But I think it's clear that's
Speaker 2: what Putin is. And yeah, it's gonna look like right,
Speaker 2: you know, you're gonna feel my wrath. I really think
Speaker 2: that's what's happening. I think it's spread to different sectors,
Speaker 2: and I think it's almost this kind of blood for blood,
Speaker 2: you know, like, okay, well this many of our troops died.
Speaker 2: And I can link it in a way, however esoteric
Speaker 2: you want to do it. I can link it back
Speaker 2: to the amount of money you've stolen. Okay, well, blood
Speaker 2: for blood. Your head will roll as well. And you know,
Speaker 2: if we look at what happened to so many reporters,
Speaker 2: so many politicians, even if you look at the madness
Speaker 2: with navalni Vignenko, you know, poisoning people across the world.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's at all a stretch to say, yeah,
Speaker 2: Putin is probably or maybe not poohing, but people around
Speaker 2: him are probably not just clearing shop as I feel
Speaker 2: like a lot of it was in Season one. I
Speaker 2: think now this is almost a war within, like an
Speaker 2: offensive against these people that might be seen as traders.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, it's kind of giving this like whatever kind
Speaker 1: of reminds me of is the kind of post World
Speaker 1: War One Germany where the military blamed you know, the
Speaker 1: home front for losing the war. This is kind of
Speaker 1: what it's feeling like, Like maybe Putin sees the failure
Speaker 1: is like, well, it's not that the Russian military is bad.
Speaker 1: It's not that we're like, you know, a bad military.
Speaker 1: Is that we were failed by all these corrupt CEOs
Speaker 1: and all these industries that aren't doing they're all that
Speaker 1: aren't giving their all. Like we're actually like the military
Speaker 1: is fine, but we just need like support these people
Speaker 1: who failed. They were stealing money, they weren't delivering contracts,
Speaker 1: they weren't you know, fulfilling the like whatever, like refurbishments
Speaker 1: of like different vehicles and stuff. And Yeah, at this point,
Speaker 1: it's like who do you blame? Right, Like you imagine
Speaker 1: you're like a security service person, Like on their Putin
Speaker 1: You're like you're hearing his pissed he needs to find
Speaker 1: somebody who to blame. Like maybe you'll find who to blame, right,
Speaker 1: You'll you'll find the somebody to fall on the sword
Speaker 1: instead of yourself. Right. I think that's kind of the
Speaker 1: environment he created, like I think any of the dataship
Speaker 1: has that, you know, if he can just get pissed
Speaker 1: and like fire people, put them under arrest or even
Speaker 1: get them killed, put them on a goolag like navoliny rate.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be You kind of want to
Speaker 1: give him somebody to be angry at rather than him,
Speaker 1: like maybe lashing out whoever's closest to him. So it's
Speaker 1: like you start looking for like, yeah, like where where
Speaker 1: is you know, where's the issue? Was it the arms
Speaker 1: not being like up to standard or they're not being
Speaker 1: enough of like like the contract wasn't filled out because
Speaker 1: half the money's gone to somebody's pocket. I think I
Speaker 1: think I feel like it would create like a rippled
Speaker 1: through the system where everybody's kind of like panicking. They're like,
Speaker 1: well shit, I don't want to be the one that's
Speaker 1: taking the fall for this because like I also think
Speaker 1: for Putin, the war is more like ideological at this point,
Speaker 1: whereas a lot of people in the system were just
Speaker 1: there for the money, you know, and they're I think
Speaker 1: you've saw like a lot of reports were like oligarchs
Speaker 1: and like some higher ups weren't happy with the war.
Speaker 1: In Ukraine because it just interrupted their like their money making, right.
Speaker 1: I think they were satisfied with selling oil kind of
Speaker 1: getting their money through whatever means they were doing it,
Speaker 1: and this war in Ukraine kind of jeopardized that. And
Speaker 1: I think there, I just think a lot of people
Speaker 1: there aren't as like ideologically driven as Putin is with
Speaker 1: kind of restoring the Soviet Union and having like an
Speaker 1: empire or Russia be like this great nation. I think
Speaker 1: they were just happy to be there for the money.
Speaker 1: But now Putin's ideology is overtaking that, and they're like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, okay, we got we gotta save our ass.
Speaker 1: We gotta like show Putin that we're committed. And then
Speaker 1: some people have to go as like you said, like
Speaker 1: a blood for blood, like who's gonna who's gonna pay
Speaker 1: for this? And who's gonna answer for our failures kind
Speaker 1: of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And if even if you put it on
Speaker 2: like a kind of macro level, right, like let's say,
Speaker 2: I don't know, you need some building work done in
Speaker 2: your house, and get you get the building work done,
Speaker 2: and then each time it's not really working and you're like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck is happening. I've spent all this money,
Speaker 2: what's going on? And then you find out one of
Speaker 2: the contractors is stealing a bit of the dough and
Speaker 2: doing a half fast job, but just so we can
Speaker 2: make a little bit extra, right, you find out, you
Speaker 2: get rid of that contractor like you're out here, what
Speaker 2: the fuck are you doing? Times a thousand and put
Speaker 2: a war and put one of the most powerful countries
Speaker 2: in the world, with the leader being a complete authoritarian
Speaker 2: happy to kill Tyron. It makes sense. It makes sense
Speaker 2: that he's gone, Okay, you'll learn you'll be so scared
Speaker 2: to do this in future because you might actually die.
Speaker 2: And I can really see that being a possibility. One
Speaker 2: one last thing. And I don't want us to think
Speaker 2: we're too fucking important. I know journalists have a real
Speaker 2: sometimes an ego complex, like they think the work is
Speaker 2: so huge, But do you think people in the Kremlin
Speaker 2: are at all aware of this series we're doing. I
Speaker 2: think it's possible if someone's gone, what the fuck, like
Speaker 2: what is this? Not that they care? Not that like, oh,
Speaker 2: they're gonna come after us, Like why would they give
Speaker 2: a fuck? Like they do this themselves. A lot of
Speaker 2: these deaths are kind of with a nod too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we did that. But yeah, do you think they know
Speaker 2: about this?
Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, I don't know. I thought about that too.
Speaker 1: I mean it would be nice to think of putting
Speaker 1: sitting there and he's like got it wrong, and then
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you're getting close on that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Like who these little dickheads, like why are you?
Speaker 2: Like the last season when we spent like fucking two
Speaker 2: weeks looking into the moldings of a knife to prove
Speaker 2: it was like from the military. I could imagine someone
Speaker 2: like being tasked to listen to it and being like
Speaker 2: fuck or just being like not wrong.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh hot, hot, cold cold.
Speaker 2: It would make sense, right, Like there must be the
Speaker 2: department when they have to kind of I mean we
Speaker 2: know it for a fact, you know, with like bot
Speaker 2: farms and like trying to influence stuff, there is definitely
Speaker 2: a part of the Kremlin, as with any government, is
Speaker 2: completely tasked with influencing stuff abroad and keeping track. That's
Speaker 2: why you get, you know, I don't want to talk
Speaker 2: anyone's name, but that's why you get kind of alternative
Speaker 2: media that we're very against. Put in linked wars who
Speaker 2: suddenly went to Moscow, got a load of dough and
Speaker 2: came back flipped and did the other thing and started
Speaker 2: doing the propaganda for Moscow. I think there must be
Speaker 2: someone keeping track of that shit. I reckon it's possible
Speaker 2: they've at least heard.
Speaker 1: Of it, definitely, I think so. I mean they have
Speaker 1: whole dedicated like departments and like you said, bot farms
Speaker 1: and other like kind of internet like cyber stuff, right
Speaker 1: tracking and spreading misinformation and paying different media. I think
Speaker 1: we had here in Canada a lot of like conservative
Speaker 1: links or like old right linked influencers are not creators
Speaker 1: who were like being paid by the Kremlin. Right, They're
Speaker 1: very much like in like I guess could say they're
Speaker 1: advanced in that sense, like they they have a pretty
Speaker 1: deep kind of like understanding of how it works how
Speaker 1: to influence things online. And Yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: they definitely at least heard of it, right. I think
Speaker 1: they probably would have checked out to see, like is
Speaker 1: this concern? Do we need to care about this? I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the time, just ignoring it would
Speaker 1: probably be best for them because like either like if
Speaker 1: they do anything related to this, it's like almost like
Speaker 1: like legitimizing it. I guess, right, I think they can
Speaker 1: be like, oh, just let them talk, let them like,
Speaker 1: let them do what they think they're doing, and like
Speaker 1: doesn't bother us. Again, It's like for them, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know how a lot of the time the Kremlin
Speaker 1: will put out like just a bunch of different narratives
Speaker 1: and it's kind of twisting and it contradicts itself. Like
Speaker 1: that's kind of the point. You put out so much
Speaker 1: information from all different perspectives that the person is like, well, shit,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to believe. And I I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of where it is, where it's like they
Speaker 1: just don't care. They just need people to be confused
Speaker 1: and not know what's happening. I think the limited information
Speaker 1: is kind of doing its own work. It's like if
Speaker 1: if there's nothing to report on, then who cares. Right,
Speaker 1: we can't find anything at this point pretty much, it's
Speaker 1: really hard to find like more details. It's hard to
Speaker 1: find any court cases and information on it. So I
Speaker 1: think that kind of fixes itself in a sense because
Speaker 1: it's like you only know as much as we want
Speaker 1: you to know, and yeah, I don't know. I mean
Speaker 1: we'll see, maybe we'll have like a somebody reach out
Speaker 1: to us be like, hey, comrade, we're listening the worry
Speaker 1: I love.
Speaker 2: The word, or I'll just get like a cheeky polonium
Speaker 2: tea like one day from the cafe. Fuck that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you're right, though. It's like like if you
Speaker 2: look up, for example, like Litvinenko, Right, so he wrote
Speaker 2: the book Blowing Up Russia, which essentially, with tons and
Speaker 2: tons of evidence, exposed that it's highly likely that the
Speaker 2: Kremlin was setting up the bombs that detonated in Russia
Speaker 2: and then blamed it on the Chechens as a way
Speaker 2: to create public support for invading Chechnya. That's a big
Speaker 2: fucking deal. He was a Russian uh citizen, and so
Speaker 2: I completely understand. It's very sad, but I completely understand
Speaker 2: why they went for him. But I do think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think probably someone's looked at this and like dickheads,
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean, even if they're like
Speaker 2: I dare say, they're kind of interested as well in
Speaker 2: a way, just on a personal level, because if you
Speaker 2: look at all the comments on anything in Russian, the
Speaker 2: reports on any of this stuff, even now, you can
Speaker 2: just tell the citizens, no, this is nonsense, Like they're
Speaker 2: laughing they're like, wow, another one. Oh he tripped and fell.
Speaker 2: Oh he fell out of a window. They're so clumsy.
Speaker 2: Like we're still seeing that, right. People know, or at
Speaker 2: least they suspect that it's bogus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent, Like I see it on every article,
Speaker 1: like even as recently as like the ones from the
Speaker 1: past month, like from October. People are like, oh, right,
Speaker 1: like sure that that was an accident or oh you
Speaker 1: know some people are like yeah, that's what they deserve.
Speaker 1: They were stealing or whatever, like they like where you know,
Speaker 1: they'll say like it's a Sudas suicide, it's an accident,
Speaker 1: and they'll be like no, no, the state is cleaning
Speaker 1: up and they're doing good. So that you kind of
Speaker 1: get all perspectives on that. I also think it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a different time, right. I think at this point,
Speaker 1: the government is not as concerned with looking good, you know,
Speaker 1: like back in two thousands when the whole thing with
Speaker 1: Chichina and the bombings happened, it's like Putin was still
Speaker 1: kind of solidifying power orreas. At this point, I think
Speaker 1: it's such a stranglehold that it doesn't really like nothing's
Speaker 1: gonna shake it from the outside especially. It also might
Speaker 1: have been kind of more kind of threatening because this
Speaker 1: is like a Russian reporter, right, that was in Russia,
Speaker 1: and kind of I feel like, I feel like they're
Speaker 1: more concerned with their domestic audience and they don't really
Speaker 1: care what the West thinks. Right, the West is the enemy,
Speaker 1: the West is this is that like they don't don't
Speaker 1: they don't really need to save face with the West,
Speaker 1: especially at this point where they're in the full on invasion.
Speaker 1: You know, they're saying that they're not out a war,
Speaker 1: would you there word with NATO, But it's just like
Speaker 1: NATO's being sneaky and like there's like videos of like
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like American commandos were found in like in
Speaker 1: like Ukraine fighting against Russia. It's like, right, you know,
Speaker 1: they're kind of past the it's just Ukraine. They're they're
Speaker 1: on full on like yeah, it's NATO fighting US.
Speaker 2: I know, way to say face, Yeah, that's totally it,
Speaker 2: Like the vibrus shifted. There's never gonna be kissing makeup
Speaker 2: situation here, at least not for not for this regime,
Speaker 2: not for the next decade. It's going to take something massive,
Speaker 2: And I think you're right they're just like, eh, fuck it.
Speaker 2: It is what it is now. You know, we're at it. Sergio.
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure working with you again and we'll
Speaker 2: hammer away at the next five cases we've got left.
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Mine speak. So you've been listening to
Speaker 2: sad Oliga Season two, Produced by H eleven Studios for
Speaker 2: Cool Zone Media. Writing, editing, producing, concept and recording by
Speaker 2: myself Jake Hanrahan. Research and reporting by Sergei Slipchenko, me
Speaker 2: and Victim Mihail. Executive producing by Sophie Lichtman. Music by
Speaker 2: Sam Black, artwork by George Jutefu. Soundmixed by Splicing Block.
Speaker 2: See my other projects at Hanrahan dot tv. Get me
Speaker 2: on social media at Jake Wonder School Hanrahan. That's h
Speaker 2: A N R A H A M