1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Media. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 2: Something strange is going on. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Another member of the Russian elite has been found dead. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Reports suggests that he fell out of a window, poisoned 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: with mushrooms. 6 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Died of heart failure, died. 7 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Of carbon monoxide poisoning. How comes you are they? 8 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: Dozens of Russian oligachs, politically motivated millionaires have died in 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: the space for three years, most of them in suspicious circumstances. 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: Many have hidden links to the Kremlin. This is sad 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: Oligach season two, an ongoing investigation into these recently dead 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: Russian power brokers. Sad Oligach is created by me Jake 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: Hanrahan and my Ukrainian colleague, Sergey Slipchenkong. This is a 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: H eleven studio and Coolso Media production. We're now halfway 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: through season two of sad Oligach, so this episode is 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: an interlude of sorts. As you can probably imagine, the 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 2: work that goes into this project is absolutely massive. We're 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: knackerd We're essentially fighting an uphill battle against Kremlin state media, 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: FSB interference and a huge Russian wall of silence. It's 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 2: all become extremely difficult to navigate, especially for season two. 21 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: We also don't have the resources to spend months on 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: the ground in Russia. I actually can't even go to 23 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: the country, and as a proud Ukrainian, Surgery is of 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: course not about to jump on a flight to Moscow. 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: So for this interlude, we want to share with you 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: some of the behind the scenes struggles of what you 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 2: could call the sad Oligach extended universe. Now, this is 28 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: not to be like, oh for us. The point I'm 29 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: making is things have shifted massively since when we first 30 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: started reporting on this in twenty twenty two to twenty 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: twenty three. I think that in itself is a big 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: indicator of what's going on with this possible deep state 33 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: Russian conspiracy to take out perceived enemies of the state. 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: So me and Surgery sat down to discuss all of 35 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: this going forward. When we first started this project two 36 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: years ago or now, it definitely was not easy, but 37 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: I feel like it was a lot easier perhaps than 38 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: it is now. This second season, it's just been chaos, 39 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: trying to dig into stuff. Add one and two together. 40 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: It's been a lot. What would you say has been 41 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: the hardest part this series? Like, what's been more difficult 42 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: than it was previously. 43 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: Honestly, it's like it almost seems like people are maybe 44 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: tired of this or bored of it in a sense, 45 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: like it lost its novelty or something. Because a lot 46 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: of these stories I'm looking at, like articles, like even 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: like English media or like Western media and Russian media, 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: it almost seems like they're it's like lost its novelty again, right, 49 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: a lot less details. I mean, with all of these stories, 50 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: there's practically no updates at all. It's usually like, oh, 51 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: like the guy hung himself and yeah, there's no updates. 52 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: You know, with the previous stories, like so the first 53 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: season was like what twenty two the deaths were from 54 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: like twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, right, there was 55 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a bit more details. They would dig in a bit more. 56 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: You'd get maybe like oh, like the police were investigating, 57 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: and like the case is open and they're doing something. 58 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: Now it just seems to be like the bare minimum. 59 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this person was working at this office, 60 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: they did this thing, and now they're dead. It's really 61 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: like it's almost like a little blurb at this point. 62 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: And you know, on one hand, you could say maybe 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: some of the deaths are less notable. You know, we 64 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: had like Pregosion, we had like Rapaport, like these big 65 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: profile cases, but we've had some pretty big profile cases 66 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: in the second season as well. So it's not to 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: say that like, oh, these people are less interesting or 68 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: less important, like I would say, you know, it depends 69 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: on the case by case, but some of these people 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: are just as big as the previous cases we covered. 71 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: But the information is just really hard to find. I 72 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: don't know if it's you know, intentional censoring or kind 73 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: of like the government being more the Russian government being 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: more kind of like maybe kind of like selective with 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: what to announce, on what to say, or maybe it's 76 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: just a genuine kind of like getting tired of it 77 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of thing, right, like a fatigue. But the overall 78 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: effect is there's just way less information, way less details. 79 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: I feel like the most details I find is independent 80 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: like telegram channels posting stuff. Maybe people who were like 81 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: walking by it like a like a death right, like 82 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: some citizens came over and filmed it and then they 83 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: send it to a telegram channel. Like that's where I 84 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: find the most information. Like the the guy that like 85 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: allegedly shut himself with a shotgun that was only because 86 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: somebody stopped behind his car and like filmed it, right, 87 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: and that's all I was kind of that was like 88 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: the epitome of the reporting that we saw from that. 89 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: The actual news outlets didn't they get into anything past that, 90 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: and it's just kind of tough finding anything. 91 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that's a good point. 92 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's fatigue Ukraine fatigue, which I 93 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: think is a knock on effective it And I say 94 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: that and I don't mean it that way because it 95 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: sounds brutal, but unfortunately, I think the way the press is, 96 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: especially with war and conflict, it will focus wholeheardly on 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: something that they feel people will read and get clicks on, 98 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: as opposed to what information should we be letting the world? No, 99 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. I feel like there's a 100 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: very big shift in journalism in general in that way. 101 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: And I feel like there was a lot of attention 102 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: on Ukraine of course for the first year, massively rightly so, 103 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: and then the second year at Wayne and now I 104 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: feel like it's even less and hand in hand, yeah, 105 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: the press is definitely a lot less interested. I don't know, 106 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: do you think it may be linked to that? It 107 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: feels like that to. 108 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: Me, it could definitely be an. I mean, it can 109 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: entirely blame them. It's like the first time Ukraine hit 110 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: a I don't know, like something in Crimea, or when 111 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: it invaded Kursk, right, Like those are exciting things, new things, 112 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: but if you look at it, like if you follow 113 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: with day by day, it's a lot of the same 114 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,559 Speaker 1: kind of happening, Like how many times can you say, 115 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: you know that Ukraine hit oil refinery in Russia. A 116 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know where it is. They just 117 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: hear like a different city or maybe like a target, 118 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: like the target was a far distance away, so that's interesting. 119 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: But other than that, it's you know, it's really kind 120 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: of same thing over and over again, like how many 121 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: times can you report on it? And I think that's 122 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: kind of what's happening here. You know, another guy thought 123 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: out the window, another person hung themselves, and especially with 124 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: them giving so little details, it's almost like they wanted 125 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: to be boring, like as boring and uninteresting as possible, right, 126 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's like the only thing that's changing 127 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: is the names basically maybe the name of the city 128 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: and then maybe like one or two details around it 129 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: even like you remember some of the first that's we'd 130 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: have a death and there would be a note, and 131 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: we'd have like a picture of the note or at 132 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: least that transcribing of the note written out. Now it's like, oh, 133 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: he left the note, but let's say we don't know 134 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: what they wrote. They kind of don't publish that anymore. 135 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: It almost seems like they kind of like don't want 136 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: attention on it, and like they kind of want to 137 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: kill the interest before it kind of gets out there 138 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: and people start looking into it more. 139 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: I think you're right, but I think regarding the Ukraine thing, 140 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: it's almost a problem with the media not necessarily what's happening. 141 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: You are right, like, there's only so many times you 142 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: can say this front line got breached and blah blah. 143 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: Unless you're like kind of you know, kind of conflict 144 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: anoraks as we are. It's not that interesting to your 145 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: average person. However, there are so many stories within that 146 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: that could be told. You know, I know so many 147 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: reporters that are out there finding really interesting human stories. 148 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: You know, Granny is on the front line. She's turned 149 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: her house into like a makeshift hospital for soldiers, and 150 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: you know, stuff like this, and I feel unfortunately there's 151 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: a lot less funding for that style of reporting. I 152 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: think the two go hand in hand. It's kind of 153 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: not enough shocking new things are happening, but there's also 154 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: not the resources to tell the more deeper stories out there. 155 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: For example, I can't see anyone else would have done, 156 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 2: you know, like I did with Frontline Huligan when we 157 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: were out there trying to find out, you know, what 158 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: was the makeup of the territorial forces, which obviously, by 159 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: the time we finished editing, the war had fully stied. 160 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: I feel like there's two things going on there. But 161 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: definitely the side of things with the media is crazy. 162 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: For example, when we did like episode one of season 163 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: one that we did so Vasilli Melnikov, the guy who 164 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: allegedly murdered his old family and killed himself Nizgy Novgorod, 165 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: that very nice area in Moscow where a lot of 166 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: these oligs actually had strange deaths. You know, there was 167 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: so many details, Like you said, there was I think 168 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: there was a note with that. There was the knife 169 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: that he allegedly did it with. There were scenes photos 170 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: from the crime scene. There was even one of the 171 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: other deaths where the guy had you know, cut his 172 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: wrists and he was in the bath and there was 173 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: even images from the bathroom this season. I don't know 174 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 2: about you. Obviously were halfway through, but we've done a 175 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: lot of research already for the rest of it. I 176 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: haven't seen a single crime scene photo regarding any of 177 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: these deaths. I've not even seen a photo of evidence 178 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: of what happens. At best, we get some kind of 179 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: long range show of like authorities pulling a body out 180 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 2: of somewhere. Maybe okay, now it's time for a quick outbreak, 181 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: all right, not for that, now back to the shore. 182 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: I feel like there's been a kind of concerted effort, 183 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: maybe straight from the Kremlin. I mean, the press is 184 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: mostly controlled by the Kremlin, so maybe they kind of 185 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: understand not to but I do feel like there's almost 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: a concerted effort to be like, right, we're going to 187 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: continue if this is what happening, which I think it's clear, 188 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: is we're going to continue taking out people that mess 189 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: with the state mostly. I think this kind of points 190 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: back to stealing and spying. We're going to take them 191 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 2: out the way we do it, but there's going to 192 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: be a lot less details. I don't know, am I 193 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: being paranoid. 194 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: I know, I think that's right. Like as you mentioned 195 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: with Melnico, No, it was the very first one call 196 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: his name, but yeah, he's the guy that was in 197 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: the gas Promb's nest. Right that episode, we had a 198 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: photo not of the bathtub. We had a photo of 199 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: him next to the bathtub, right like clearly a crime 200 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: scene photo. He's laying on the floor. I believe it 201 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: was face down. You can see the cast on his 202 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: leg that they attributed, like that he was in too 203 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: much pain and that's why he did it. We have 204 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: like a full on photo of him laying there like 205 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: clearly dead, you know, on the floor, Like the crime 206 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: scene is right there. It's not like it's not like 207 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: a distance photo or anything like. It's it had to 208 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: have been taken by like I assume some kind of 209 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, like police examiner, like crime scene investigat or 210 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: something like that. We had that online within like the day, 211 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: if if not like hours, you know, And then like 212 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: you said in the in this recent instances, the only 213 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: time we see a crime scene is if the public 214 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: posts it. We don't see anything like extra like there's 215 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: no police like statements or posts about it. It's all 216 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: very like we're just investigating, like we're investigating. Usually they 217 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: say there's no criminal like element or whatever, and that's it, 218 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: and then like like finding updates has been hell, I 219 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: can't find anything. The only thing that's like posted, like 220 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: besides the like breaking news story or like, oh, this 221 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: person died, it's always like, oh, Russian oligarchs are dying 222 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: and here's a list of them. Were just like regurgitating 223 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: the information we already have. Like there's barely any updates, 224 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: barely anything kind of being followed up on. Can't find 225 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: any like maybe like police or like like kind of 226 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: like government like statements or reports. Nothing comes up in 227 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: a sense, maybe they just don't want it to come up, right, 228 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: let's kind of like it happened, let's let's forget about it. 229 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: Let's not bring attention to it. We don't want want 230 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: people asking questions. Yeah, I think it's just like again, 231 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: I don't think you're being crazy. It's it's pretty obvious 232 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: that the information is very limited. I mean Russia does 233 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: this with other avenues, you know, with the war. If 234 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: you're talking about how the army is struggling, or if 235 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: the government's not doing enough for the military or whatever, 236 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: like that's a big no no. So why wouldn't the 237 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: same apply to you know, potentially government sponsored or you know, 238 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: ordered murders and stuff like they definitely would have want that. 239 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: It's like, why would you want to write you don't 240 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: want to kind of like people know if that's enough 241 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: for them to know, you don't need to have all 242 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: the details of who, how and all that. 243 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: I don't know how much luck you've had in Russian, 244 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 2: and I know you say you're not fine a lot, 245 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: but even updates from series one I in English, I 246 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 2: have not found anything. I even tried to reach out 247 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: again to Vasily Melnikov's son, if you remember, he was 248 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 2: kind of shouting off online saying like my dad didn't 249 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: kill himself. I'm pretty sure the state did this. And 250 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: before I reached out to him, like I found him 251 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: via LinkedIn and then via Facebook. Nothing, just just absolutely zero. 252 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: He's gone completely silent. What about Russian? In Russian, if 253 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: you found like anything from any of the guys from 254 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: season one. 255 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: Nope, again, so pretty much just like here's what happened, 256 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: the death happened, and that's it, and just radio silence 257 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: after that. After trying for quite a few days to 258 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: just find anything. I thought, like, you know, well, Russia, 259 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: like okay, let's say they're suppressing it, right, Like, but 260 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: what about the Western cases? I looked into those, so 261 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: like there was like the Protestenia what was like triple 262 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: homicide suicide where he killed his wife and daughter in Spain. 263 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: Then there was Dan Rapaport who fell out of his 264 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:36,239 Speaker 1: apartment in Washington, d C. Who else is Zeleno Zeleanov? 265 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: He died in France where he like tripped over his 266 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: railing and like hit his head on the car or whatever. 267 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: No updates pretty much for Rapaport. I found that, like 268 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: his investigation was, it's basically so like it's open, but 269 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: they're not investigating it unless something new comes up. So 270 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: they can't close it officially because they don't have a 271 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: specific manner of death. So at this time it's like 272 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: undetermined and the death is listed as sudden or unexplained. 273 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: And the report from the chief Medical Examiner, so this 274 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: was in November, a few months after his death in 275 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: August twenty twenty two. I believe it says multiple blunt 276 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: force injuries due to a fall from height, Like that's it, 277 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: like he fell out of his apartment. That's it. They 278 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: and they have this like conclusion, but they also don't 279 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: have a definitive answer. So because of that, it's kind 280 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: of like a limbo. Apparently the case is open, but 281 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: it's not being investigated, so they also don't have like 282 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: so it's not closed, so you can't access the details 283 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: of the investigation because it's technically ongoing. So it's kind 284 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: of stuck in this limbo where nobody can access it, 285 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: but nobody's investigating it, so which is kind of weird. 286 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: I could also find an update that his wife was 287 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: allegedly looking to do like a because you say, like 288 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: a personal investigation. She ordered his blood to be tested 289 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: for like texacology report to kind of I guess see 290 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: maybe he was at very at least maybe he was drunk, 291 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: or if he has something in a system. But there 292 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: was no updates since it was just like a mention 293 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: that she wanted to do that, and she I think 294 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: it was like immediately after his death she was very 295 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: very certain that there's no way that it was a suicide. 296 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: And then but that was really the only case where 297 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: I could find updates even in the West. There was 298 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: another one in UK. Was it Michael Watford. I think 299 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: his name is same thing. No updates. A lot of these, interestingly, 300 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: are ruled like suicides and they're closed, so there is 301 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: no way of investigating it further, right, because they're kind 302 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: of they kind of kind of like a close and shutcase, 303 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: so there's no really like like they're not intending to 304 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: follow up on it at least seems like they just 305 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: rule it a suicide and the case is closed. 306 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 2: How I'm stronger the press over there right now, it's 307 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: gotten worse, I reckon, like, I don't think there's any 308 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: real room for independent media out there. Is that, and 309 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: even when there is, they still know, like we can 310 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: get this close to the edge, but we can't go 311 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: over it. It's still kind of self censorship. Just in case. 312 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's not even just the media. I mean, 313 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: I think yesterday on Twitter or an X, people were 314 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: posting photos of a new Russian history book where they're 315 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: talking about the Special Military Operation, how it started because 316 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: NATO has biolabs in Ukraine, right, all this kind of 317 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: like propaganda that they've used to justify it. I mean, 318 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: if it's coming into history books, right, if they're willing 319 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: to kind of spread that lie in their official like 320 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: I think it was a Grade eleven or something. History 321 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: books and the media is known to be on the 322 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: very strict tight control. The narrative is typically very like 323 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: manufactured and decided on by the state, Like I don't 324 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: see why they wouldn't also control this narrative, right, And again, 325 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: it's not even controlling it. There's just no information. It's 326 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: not like it's not like there's a wealth of information 327 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: that is out there and they're trying to suppress it, 328 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: like itses doesn't come to begin with, Like I'm finding 329 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: it really hard to find stuff for the new cases 330 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: and basically no updates on old cases. 331 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've found as well people are a lot less 332 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: interested in talking about it. So I've been trying, you know, 333 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: I've been reaching out to people like hey, can I 334 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: get like an opinion on this or someone from an 335 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 2: area will say yeah, sure, but I'm not going on 336 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: the record, you know, Like there's just not like even 337 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: people that are not necessarily attached, people that are not 338 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: even in Russia. It's almost like there's this kind of 339 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: understanding now that this shit is happening, and people don't 340 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: want to be involved. I don't know, I feel like 341 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: maybe that might be because it's not just oligarchs now right. Obviously, 342 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: the kind of sad oligarch monika is because a lot 343 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: of oligarchs were falling out of windows and the state 344 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 2: was saying, oh, they were just depressed, or the police 345 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: were saying they would depressed. Oh yeah, hah, sad oligarch. 346 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: But of course there's a lot of people that are 347 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: maybe not necessarily in the bracket of oligach, but they 348 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: are definitely political, their power brokers, they're attached to the state. 349 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: It feels as if they're going to go for anybody. 350 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: Now. 351 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if it's a thing 352 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: of connecting dots that you see or if it's actually 353 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: happening that way. But the recent one, for example, the 354 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: old fella that died from the mushroom poisoning attached to 355 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: Ross Cosmos. There seems to be a lot of tension 356 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: around that example. We did the last episode. Okay, it 357 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: wasn't Ross Cosmos but a parent company. There was also 358 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: a hell of a lot of corruption going on, several 359 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 2: people there dying arrested. No one's saying anything. I feel like, 360 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: if my theory is true, I feel like the state 361 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: is using this kind of deep state possibly FSB attacks 362 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: on their critics or their people next to them that 363 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: aren't behaving. Okay, now it's time for a quick ad break. 364 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 2: Well enough for that, Now back to the shore. I 365 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 2: feel like it's extending further, Like the to pus, his 366 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: legs are gone from oil and weapons to other industries 367 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: that the state controls. Does that make sense? 368 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think I think it'd be several things. Like, 369 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: first of all, you know, when we initially started that 370 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: oligarch made sense because what brought attention was oligarchs and 371 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: people who were more so like easier defined as oligarchs, right, 372 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: And that was kind of the start of like what 373 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: brought our attention to it to begin with. And they 374 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: were like I think I would say like ninety percent 375 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: of them were definitely like just playing all oligarchs. And 376 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: it's not to say that maybe there were like suspicious 377 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: that's happening before that, right, but they kind of brought 378 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: that spotlight onto it the war in Ukraine, and then 379 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: like all of these deaths happening suddenly. I'm sure like 380 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: there were deaths of like minor or smaller kind of 381 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: like maybe see eos or kind of these like scientists 382 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 1: that happened, but maybe nobody noticed, right, and then this 383 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: attention was brought onto it. Even when I'm working on 384 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: these different cases, I'm like, well, does this person count 385 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: is an oligarch? Right? Like this does he even count? 386 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: Should he be included? I think a lot of times 387 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: it's like if they're tied to the state, and if 388 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: their deaths are really sus suspicious, it's like, I think 389 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: it's worth looking into it. I think part of it 390 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: could be that, like before the war in Ukraine, there 391 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: was like an illusion of what a great state Russia is, 392 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, second and greatest military like economic powerhouse by 393 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: its own kind of like that's what it saw itself. 394 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: I think most people didn't see it that way, but 395 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: Russia wanted to be or at least pretend to be right. 396 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: And then I think the failed invasion of Ukraine now 397 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,239 Speaker 1: reaching it, like the three Day operation going into like 398 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: the third fourth year, I think it kind of shattered 399 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: that illusion for the world. But I also think I 400 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: think maybe Putin thought that there really were you know, 401 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: like they were going to go in in three days. 402 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: Like I think he might have believed that because you know, 403 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: you're not gonna tell putin Dada. Oh yeah, Actually our 404 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: military has been corrupt and I've been sealing money from you. 405 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: There's probably a lot of bullshit of like the reports 406 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: being sent forward, right, And I think I think the 407 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: case we talked about last with the zelenorghs and the 408 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: well what is it called Reshetnev, Like, I think that's 409 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: kind of it's a good case study for the overall 410 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: situation because this kind of corruption is kind of like 411 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, taking some money off the top from the budget. 412 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: That's very common, and that's just very like standard practice almost, 413 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: you know. And I think maybe after seeing these failings continually, 414 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, continue failing in Ukraine. But also like there 415 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: were reports definitely in the beginning of the war and 416 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: like thing this second year. I don't see it as 417 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: much now, but like that a lot of like equipment 418 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: wasn't up to standard. A lot of things were like 419 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: tanks were like fixed and fitted out to you know, 420 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: to operate on paper. But then when you go to 421 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: the storage, they're all rusting away and the money that 422 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: was allocated for that is in somebody's bank account, right. 423 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of that is being kind of 424 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: like I think the government itself is kind of finding 425 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: out just the scale of the corruption and like money 426 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: just kind of sinking, and now that they actually need 427 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: this money, they kind of need every penny to count 428 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: at this point, right, Like they're clearly struggling against Ukraine, 429 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: Like yeah, they're making advances, but like how much soldiers 430 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: are they're losing, how much money are they spending into this. 431 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: I think at this point they need every penny to 432 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: count kind of thing. And I think this is where 433 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: they come in and they're like okay, like for example, 434 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: again going back to Shetny of like okay, we have 435 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: this company that's supposed to do our satellites, it's supposed 436 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: to help with our targeting, and fifty million rubles just 437 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: went to some bullshit media company. You know. I think 438 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: they can't sustain this kind of corruption at this point, 439 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: and I think that's what we're seeing, Like how they 440 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: send somebody from Moscow instead of this seventy year old 441 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: guy who was there for I think it was like 442 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: two decades. Like he's clearly not doing his job. He's 443 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: part of the corruption. We need to like they're like 444 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: stealing the holes in the boat right, they're they're kind 445 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: of leaking, they're gonna they're they're not getting their results 446 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: they want, and they need to patch it up. I 447 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: think that's kind of what we're seeing here, and I 448 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: think that can apply to multiple cases. I just think 449 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: this shading of case was kind of the most most 450 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: kind of like out there, Like we have the court filings, 451 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: we're seeing that, like multiple people are getting either arrested 452 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: or under criminal investigations for stealing money, and like a 453 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: very open and clear case of what's happening. But there's 454 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: no way that that's a unique case or like, oh, 455 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: this is like a once in a million kind of thing, 456 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: Like this is pretty standard across Russia. And I think 457 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: they're realizing that they can't keep you know, this war 458 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: and keep their economy going with all this corruption, and 459 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: they're trying to fix it up. And I guess maybe 460 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: some of the ways of fixing it is getting rid 461 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: of some people who you know, like kind of worked 462 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: against the state, Like it's trees and right, kind of 463 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: stealing money, delivering goods that aren't good and just delivering 464 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: like on pay You're like, yeah, yeah, everything's good, we 465 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: have this. I don't know, like weapons system, or we 466 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: have these I have this like munition, and then you 467 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: get delivery and it's half missing, or it's or it's 468 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: like rotting or you know, like old stuff that know 469 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: what you paid for. I think it's catching up to 470 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: them and they're trying to kind of clear house. 471 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: I think that's exactly what's happening in my so on 472 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: my notes, so I got like pretty much the same theory. So, 473 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: I mean, again, this is a theory we don't know 474 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: for some but I feel like if you look at 475 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: the way Putin insulated himself with s men right again, 476 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: he didn't I mean, okay, three days, four days, whatever 477 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: the actual thing was, they essentially did not think this 478 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: would happen. And I don't think anyone thought this would happen. 479 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 2: I saw some smart, respected journalists and analysts at the 480 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 2: time being like, wow, Ukraine has been invaded. It's all 481 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: over and lo and behold. You know, Ukraine fought back, 482 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 2: of course, with a lot of help from the West, 483 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: but Ukraine has really held it up. Things will look 484 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: bad on the front lines. I've got friends out there, 485 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: and things are doing very badly on the front not 486 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: necessarily just because of Russian firepower, often because of corruption 487 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: on the front lines as well on the Ukrainian side, 488 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: but that's another story. But things are bad, but still 489 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: they are resisting, they're still holding up. And Putin has 490 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 2: made a you know, a really miscalculated move here, and 491 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: I really do believe that it's because people told him like, 492 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: it's all going to go fine. This is always the 493 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: quandary of the tyrant. If you act like a tyrant, 494 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: people around you are scared to tell you what's really 495 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: going to happen because they don't want to fall out 496 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: of favor. And I really think that's what's happened. We've 497 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 2: seen Putin get rid of certain corporal, certain military men 498 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: that would have been helping them. We saw the absolute 499 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: madness with a progosion who you know got toasted in 500 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 2: the plane. Well, an accident. We all know what happened there. 501 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: It's very clear. We covered it in season one. And 502 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think he's kind of got 503 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: to a point where he's gone, right, this is not 504 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: how it was meant to go. He's reshuffled things. He said, 505 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: let me look at this, let me look at that. 506 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: And again, you're right, people that were maybe within an 507 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: industry like Russia. Nev like, oh, it's you know, it's 508 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: satellite systems. Glossnos, it's like the GPS system. They're not 509 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: necessarily directly thinking about the soldiers on the front line 510 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 2: that are invade in Ukraine. However, Putin will be, people 511 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: attached to him will be if they look, oh right, 512 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: this this satellite business that is meant to be creating 513 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 2: a good radar for our soldiers. Oh, there's literally billions 514 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: of rubles have gone. Literally almost a billion dollars in fact, 515 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: was essentially pilled for the way. No one really knows 516 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 2: where it's all gone. Several people have been arrested involved there, 517 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: as we know. The head of account at Rashiat Nev 518 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: committed suicide, maybe by proxy, maybe someone got to him. 519 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 2: And it's that thing where well, yeah, you're essentially now 520 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 2: stopping your country winning the war. That's what could be 521 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: in his mind. This is so bad, this corruption is 522 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 2: so bad that you're directly involved in stopping the country 523 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: winning the war. Of course they're not winning the war 524 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: because of many different factors. But if you are the 525 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: kind of tirant minded megalomaniac that I think it's clear 526 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: Pooting is again most Western leaders are the same, just 527 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: from a different avenue. But I think it's clear that's 528 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 2: what Putin is. And yeah, it's gonna look like right, 529 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: you know, you're gonna feel my wrath. I really think 530 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: that's what's happening. I think it's spread to different sectors, 531 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: and I think it's almost this kind of blood for blood, 532 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: you know, like, okay, well this many of our troops died. 533 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: And I can link it in a way, however esoteric 534 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: you want to do it. I can link it back 535 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: to the amount of money you've stolen. Okay, well, blood 536 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: for blood. Your head will roll as well. And you know, 537 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: if we look at what happened to so many reporters, 538 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: so many politicians, even if you look at the madness 539 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: with navalni Vignenko, you know, poisoning people across the world. 540 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: I don't think it's at all a stretch to say, yeah, 541 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: Putin is probably or maybe not poohing, but people around 542 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: him are probably not just clearing shop as I feel 543 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 2: like a lot of it was in Season one. I 544 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: think now this is almost a war within, like an 545 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 2: offensive against these people that might be seen as traders. 546 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? 547 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, it's kind of giving this like whatever kind 548 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: of reminds me of is the kind of post World 549 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: War One Germany where the military blamed you know, the 550 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: home front for losing the war. This is kind of 551 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: what it's feeling like, Like maybe Putin sees the failure 552 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: is like, well, it's not that the Russian military is bad. 553 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: It's not that we're like, you know, a bad military. 554 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: Is that we were failed by all these corrupt CEOs 555 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: and all these industries that aren't doing they're all that 556 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: aren't giving their all. Like we're actually like the military 557 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: is fine, but we just need like support these people 558 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: who failed. They were stealing money, they weren't delivering contracts, 559 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: they weren't you know, fulfilling the like whatever, like refurbishments 560 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: of like different vehicles and stuff. And Yeah, at this point, 561 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: it's like who do you blame? Right, Like you imagine 562 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: you're like a security service person, Like on their Putin 563 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: You're like you're hearing his pissed he needs to find 564 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: somebody who to blame. Like maybe you'll find who to blame, right, 565 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: You'll you'll find the somebody to fall on the sword 566 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: instead of yourself. Right. I think that's kind of the 567 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: environment he created, like I think any of the dataship 568 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: has that, you know, if he can just get pissed 569 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: and like fire people, put them under arrest or even 570 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: get them killed, put them on a goolag like navoliny rate. 571 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: You don't want to be You kind of want to 572 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: give him somebody to be angry at rather than him, 573 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: like maybe lashing out whoever's closest to him. So it's 574 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: like you start looking for like, yeah, like where where 575 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: is you know, where's the issue? Was it the arms 576 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: not being like up to standard or they're not being 577 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: enough of like like the contract wasn't filled out because 578 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: half the money's gone to somebody's pocket. I think I 579 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: think I feel like it would create like a rippled 580 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: through the system where everybody's kind of like panicking. They're like, 581 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: well shit, I don't want to be the one that's 582 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: taking the fall for this because like I also think 583 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: for Putin, the war is more like ideological at this point, 584 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: whereas a lot of people in the system were just 585 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: there for the money, you know, and they're I think 586 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: you've saw like a lot of reports were like oligarchs 587 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: and like some higher ups weren't happy with the war. 588 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: In Ukraine because it just interrupted their like their money making, right. 589 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 1: I think they were satisfied with selling oil kind of 590 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: getting their money through whatever means they were doing it, 591 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: and this war in Ukraine kind of jeopardized that. And 592 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: I think there, I just think a lot of people 593 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: there aren't as like ideologically driven as Putin is with 594 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: kind of restoring the Soviet Union and having like an 595 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: empire or Russia be like this great nation. I think 596 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: they were just happy to be there for the money. 597 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: But now Putin's ideology is overtaking that, and they're like, 598 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: oh shit, okay, we got we gotta save our ass. 599 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,239 Speaker 1: We gotta like show Putin that we're committed. And then 600 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: some people have to go as like you said, like 601 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: a blood for blood, like who's gonna who's gonna pay 602 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: for this? And who's gonna answer for our failures kind 603 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: of thing. 604 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And if even if you put it on 605 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: like a kind of macro level, right, like let's say, 606 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: I don't know, you need some building work done in 607 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: your house, and get you get the building work done, 608 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 2: and then each time it's not really working and you're like, 609 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: what the fuck is happening. I've spent all this money, 610 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 2: what's going on? And then you find out one of 611 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: the contractors is stealing a bit of the dough and 612 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: doing a half fast job, but just so we can 613 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: make a little bit extra, right, you find out, you 614 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: get rid of that contractor like you're out here, what 615 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: the fuck are you doing? Times a thousand and put 616 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: a war and put one of the most powerful countries 617 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: in the world, with the leader being a complete authoritarian 618 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: happy to kill Tyron. It makes sense. It makes sense 619 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: that he's gone, Okay, you'll learn you'll be so scared 620 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: to do this in future because you might actually die. 621 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: And I can really see that being a possibility. One 622 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: one last thing. And I don't want us to think 623 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: we're too fucking important. I know journalists have a real 624 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: sometimes an ego complex, like they think the work is 625 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 2: so huge, But do you think people in the Kremlin 626 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: are at all aware of this series we're doing. I 627 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: think it's possible if someone's gone, what the fuck, like 628 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,239 Speaker 2: what is this? Not that they care? Not that like, oh, 629 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: they're gonna come after us, Like why would they give 630 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: a fuck? Like they do this themselves. A lot of 631 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 2: these deaths are kind of with a nod too. Yeah, 632 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: we did that. But yeah, do you think they know 633 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 2: about this? 634 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah, I don't know. I thought about that too. 635 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: I mean it would be nice to think of putting 636 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: sitting there and he's like got it wrong, and then 637 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you're getting close on that one. 638 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: Yeah right, Like who these little dickheads, like why are you? 639 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 2: Like the last season when we spent like fucking two 640 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: weeks looking into the moldings of a knife to prove 641 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: it was like from the military. I could imagine someone 642 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: like being tasked to listen to it and being like 643 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: fuck or just being like not wrong. 644 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: And they're like, oh hot, hot, cold cold. 645 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: It would make sense, right, Like there must be the 646 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: department when they have to kind of I mean we 647 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 2: know it for a fact, you know, with like bot 648 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: farms and like trying to influence stuff, there is definitely 649 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: a part of the Kremlin, as with any government, is 650 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: completely tasked with influencing stuff abroad and keeping track. That's 651 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: why you get, you know, I don't want to talk 652 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 2: anyone's name, but that's why you get kind of alternative 653 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: media that we're very against. Put in linked wars who 654 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: suddenly went to Moscow, got a load of dough and 655 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: came back flipped and did the other thing and started 656 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 2: doing the propaganda for Moscow. I think there must be 657 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: someone keeping track of that shit. I reckon it's possible 658 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 2: they've at least heard. 659 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: Of it, definitely, I think so. I mean they have 660 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: whole dedicated like departments and like you said, bot farms 661 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: and other like kind of internet like cyber stuff, right 662 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: tracking and spreading misinformation and paying different media. I think 663 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: we had here in Canada a lot of like conservative 664 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: links or like old right linked influencers are not creators 665 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: who were like being paid by the Kremlin. Right, They're 666 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: very much like in like I guess could say they're 667 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: advanced in that sense, like they they have a pretty 668 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: deep kind of like understanding of how it works how 669 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: to influence things online. And Yeah, I think I think 670 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: they definitely at least heard of it, right. I think 671 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: they probably would have checked out to see, like is 672 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: this concern? Do we need to care about this? I 673 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: think a lot of the time, just ignoring it would 674 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: probably be best for them because like either like if 675 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: they do anything related to this, it's like almost like 676 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: like legitimizing it. I guess, right, I think they can 677 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: be like, oh, just let them talk, let them like, 678 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: let them do what they think they're doing, and like 679 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: doesn't bother us. Again, It's like for them, it's like, 680 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: you know how a lot of the time the Kremlin 681 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: will put out like just a bunch of different narratives 682 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: and it's kind of twisting and it contradicts itself. Like 683 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: that's kind of the point. You put out so much 684 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: information from all different perspectives that the person is like, well, shit, 685 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: I don't know what to believe. And I I think 686 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: that's kind of where it is, where it's like they 687 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: just don't care. They just need people to be confused 688 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: and not know what's happening. I think the limited information 689 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: is kind of doing its own work. It's like if 690 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: if there's nothing to report on, then who cares. Right, 691 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: we can't find anything at this point pretty much, it's 692 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: really hard to find like more details. It's hard to 693 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: find any court cases and information on it. So I 694 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: think that kind of fixes itself in a sense because 695 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: it's like you only know as much as we want 696 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: you to know, and yeah, I don't know. I mean 697 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: we'll see, maybe we'll have like a somebody reach out 698 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: to us be like, hey, comrade, we're listening the worry 699 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: I love. 700 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: The word, or I'll just get like a cheeky polonium 701 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: tea like one day from the cafe. Fuck that. Yeah, 702 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 2: I think you're right, though. It's like like if you 703 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,959 Speaker 2: look up, for example, like Litvinenko, Right, so he wrote 704 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: the book Blowing Up Russia, which essentially, with tons and 705 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: tons of evidence, exposed that it's highly likely that the 706 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 2: Kremlin was setting up the bombs that detonated in Russia 707 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 2: and then blamed it on the Chechens as a way 708 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 2: to create public support for invading Chechnya. That's a big 709 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 2: fucking deal. He was a Russian uh citizen, and so 710 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: I completely understand. It's very sad, but I completely understand 711 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 2: why they went for him. But I do think you're right. 712 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: I think probably someone's looked at this and like dickheads, 713 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 2: like you know what I mean, even if they're like 714 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 2: I dare say, they're kind of interested as well in 715 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: a way, just on a personal level, because if you 716 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: look at all the comments on anything in Russian, the 717 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: reports on any of this stuff, even now, you can 718 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: just tell the citizens, no, this is nonsense, Like they're 719 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 2: laughing they're like, wow, another one. Oh he tripped and fell. 720 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: Oh he fell out of a window. They're so clumsy. 721 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: Like we're still seeing that, right. People know, or at 722 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 2: least they suspect that it's bogus. 723 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent, Like I see it on every article, 724 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: like even as recently as like the ones from the 725 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: past month, like from October. People are like, oh, right, 726 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: like sure that that was an accident or oh you 727 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: know some people are like yeah, that's what they deserve. 728 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: They were stealing or whatever, like they like where you know, 729 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: they'll say like it's a Sudas suicide, it's an accident, 730 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: and they'll be like no, no, the state is cleaning 731 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: up and they're doing good. So that you kind of 732 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: get all perspectives on that. I also think it's a 733 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: bit of a different time, right. I think at this point, 734 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: the government is not as concerned with looking good, you know, 735 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: like back in two thousands when the whole thing with 736 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: Chichina and the bombings happened, it's like Putin was still 737 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: kind of solidifying power orreas. At this point, I think 738 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: it's such a stranglehold that it doesn't really like nothing's 739 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: gonna shake it from the outside especially. It also might 740 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: have been kind of more kind of threatening because this 741 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: is like a Russian reporter, right, that was in Russia, 742 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: and kind of I feel like, I feel like they're 743 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: more concerned with their domestic audience and they don't really 744 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: care what the West thinks. Right, the West is the enemy, 745 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: the West is this is that like they don't don't 746 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,439 Speaker 1: they don't really need to save face with the West, 747 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: especially at this point where they're in the full on invasion. 748 00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: You know, they're saying that they're not out a war, 749 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: would you there word with NATO, But it's just like 750 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: NATO's being sneaky and like there's like videos of like 751 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: oh yeah, like American commandos were found in like in 752 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: like Ukraine fighting against Russia. It's like, right, you know, 753 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: they're kind of past the it's just Ukraine. They're they're 754 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: on full on like yeah, it's NATO fighting US. 755 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: I know, way to say face, Yeah, that's totally it, 756 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: Like the vibrus shifted. There's never gonna be kissing makeup 757 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 2: situation here, at least not for not for this regime, 758 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 2: not for the next decade. It's going to take something massive, 759 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: And I think you're right they're just like, eh, fuck it. 760 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: It is what it is now. You know, we're at it. Sergio. 761 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure working with you again and we'll 762 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 2: hammer away at the next five cases we've got left. 763 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Mine speak. So you've been listening to 764 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: sad Oliga Season two, Produced by H eleven Studios for 765 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:04,479 Speaker 2: Cool Zone Media. Writing, editing, producing, concept and recording by 766 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 2: myself Jake Hanrahan. Research and reporting by Sergei Slipchenko, me 767 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: and Victim Mihail. Executive producing by Sophie Lichtman. Music by 768 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 2: Sam Black, artwork by George Jutefu. Soundmixed by Splicing Block. 769 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: See my other projects at Hanrahan dot tv. Get me 770 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: on social media at Jake Wonder School Hanrahan. That's h 771 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 2: A N R A H A M