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Speaker 1: I have to tell you my mother. My mother was

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Speaker 1: a great cook, and she used to go, your elbow

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Speaker 1: taste good if you're deep fried.

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Speaker 2: It, see's right.

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Speaker 1: So now we go when we're like at anywhere where

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Speaker 1: it's shit food, when it's deep fried and we're all

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Speaker 1: eating it, we're like deep fried elbow.

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Speaker 2: That's true. Now when all fails, you just drop into

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Speaker 2: deep fryer and it's all going to be fine.

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved Preust's questionnaire. It

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Speaker 1: was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players would

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Speaker 1: ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing.

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Speaker 3: The other player's true nature.

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Speaker 1: In asking different people the same set of questions, you

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Speaker 1: can make observations about which truths appear to be universal.

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Speaker 1: And it made me wonder, what if these questions were

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Speaker 1: just the jumping off point, what greater depths would be

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Speaker 1: revealed if I asked these questions as conversation starters. So

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Speaker 1: I adapted Prus' questionnaire and I wrote my own seven

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Speaker 1: questions that I personally think are pertinent to a person's story.

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Speaker 3: They are when and where were you happiest?

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Speaker 1: What is the quality you like least about yourself? What relationship,

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Speaker 1: real or fictionalized, defines.

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Speaker 2: Love for you?

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Speaker 3: What question would you most like answered, What person, place,

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Speaker 3: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be

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Speaker 3: your last meal? And can you tell me something in

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Speaker 3: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And

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Speaker 3: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that

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Speaker 3: I am honored and humbled to have had the chance

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Speaker 3: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to

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Speaker 3: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to

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Speaker 3: which questions felt closest to their experience or the most surprising,

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Speaker 3: or created the most fertile.

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Speaker 1: Ground to connect. My guest today is the James Beard

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Speaker 1: Award winning chef, writer, and TV host Sophia Row. Sophia

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Speaker 1: produced and hosted the Emmy nominated show Counterspace, where she

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Speaker 1: used food to explore a changing world world. She won

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Speaker 1: the James Beard Award as an Emerging Voice in Broadcast

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Speaker 1: Media and was notably the first black woman to be

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Speaker 1: nominated in that category. Her main mission is to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: how food is both political and artistic. She grew up

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Speaker 1: with food insecurity when she was a child. She's really

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Speaker 1: passionate about and really adept at raising awareness about people

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Speaker 1: who are going hungry. Sophia currently lives in New York

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Speaker 1: and works out of this extraordinary culinary studio called Apartment Miso,

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Speaker 1: where she cooks, makes films, and develops recipes. Her food

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Speaker 1: is playful, creative, and visually beautiful, and it was an

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Speaker 1: absolute pleasure to talk to her. I'm really so happy

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Speaker 1: to meet you and so happy to talk about food

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Speaker 1: with you, and thank you for coming on first and foremost.

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Speaker 2: Of course even of course, are you kiddie? This is like,

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Speaker 2: this is the best part of my month. So trust

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be here. This is great, so nice

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Speaker 2: to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: So nice as you are you currently in Brooklyn? Are

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Speaker 1: you in your famous apartment?

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Speaker 2: So I'm in my apartment. But it's interesting A lot

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Speaker 2: of people don't know this, but my food content is

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Speaker 2: not shot in my physical home. I have a studio.

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Speaker 2: I have a culinary studio, so I keep it all separate,

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Speaker 2: mostly for my sanity.

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Speaker 1: That's very smart.

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Speaker 2: No, that's like my office. And I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have offices, but like in my office, I

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Speaker 2: cook in my office. So my studio is in an

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Speaker 2: area of Brooklyn called Bushwick, and I live in Williamsburg,

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Speaker 2: so I mean fifteen minutes. I could walk to my studio.

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Speaker 2: I could take the train, I could take a bike,

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Speaker 2: I could drive. It's so close. But I try to

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Speaker 2: keep my actual home very much just for me. I

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Speaker 2: do cook a lot in here, but everything you see

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Speaker 2: on the internet happens in my studio.

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Speaker 1: What quality do you like least about yourself?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so critical. I want so so desperately to

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Speaker 2: be less. So I want to be less of a

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Speaker 2: perfectionist so much. I don't want to sit on concepts

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Speaker 2: or ideas for years because they're not perfect yet. I

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Speaker 2: just want to get it out there because I feel

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Speaker 2: like what's behind those ideas are just better ideas, So

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Speaker 2: I just need to push them out. Resist this consistent

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Speaker 2: temptation to just like tw tweak tweak, tweak, tweak, and

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Speaker 2: just know and trust that this is amazing, this is great,

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Speaker 2: and it's not going to be your only great thing.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be a million other great things.

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Speaker 1: I just wrote that down. What's behind the ideas are

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Speaker 1: better ideas. I could take that to be super positive,

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Speaker 1: or I could take that to also be super hypocritical.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a very creative person's quandary because you

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Speaker 1: really can argue it both ways. It's difficult to know

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Speaker 1: when to say when and go na, na, No, we've

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Speaker 1: arrived at a good iteration of this. I need to

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Speaker 1: commit to that and not keep probing or questioning.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because what can happen is you can confuse yourself

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Speaker 2: and make it feel like, oh, I'm just reevaluating. But

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Speaker 2: before you know it, the thing that you're that's so great,

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Speaker 2: that's so beautiful, just becomes something else. So at what point,

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Speaker 2: like instead of turning it into something else, let's put

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Speaker 2: it out and then work on something else. And so

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Speaker 2: I'm always trying to kind of I don't want to

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Speaker 2: say pull back, just step back, like for what this is,

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Speaker 2: this is great, and this other thing that you want

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Speaker 2: to change about it, Let's just create something new after

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Speaker 2: we put this out. Let's just put this out and

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Speaker 2: then like make a new project. Like us chefs get

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Speaker 2: kind of wrapped up and like we want to do

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Speaker 2: all the ideas that we have at once, because there's

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Speaker 2: so many ideas, and I think it's really important to

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Speaker 2: remember that that's what new projects are for, exactly, you know,

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Speaker 2: other ideas and other moments.

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Speaker 1: When you feel that you are being hypocritical of yourself

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Speaker 1: or your work. Do you have like a ritual or

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Speaker 1: a protocol that will help you get out of that? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's things I say to myself, like, Sophia, we're

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Speaker 2: going to stop here. This is me loving you, like

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Speaker 2: loving myself, like me loving myself right now is like

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Speaker 2: we're actually just going to put this away. Oh what

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Speaker 2: a terrible joy it is to be in a situation

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Speaker 2: where you feel like you need to just like keep

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Speaker 2: shifting it. This is it's like not even a real problem.

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Speaker 2: This is not a real problem. You're taking a really

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Speaker 2: great thing and asking yourself how you can make it better?

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Speaker 2: Why is that important? Why is better important? In this moment? Right?

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Speaker 2: This is already great, you know. And that always leads

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Speaker 2: me to like, oh, you're trying to be perfect.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: You're trying to be perfect, and that's actually not what

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Speaker 2: people are asking for, you know what I mean. No

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Speaker 2: one's asking for perfect.

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Speaker 1: Appslutely, that's a very good thing to remember. No one

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Speaker 1: is asking for perfect. Okay, I'm now I'm writing that

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Speaker 1: down to That would make my day so much easier

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Speaker 1: and shorter. If I could do that, I'm literally going

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Speaker 1: to put that on a tent card on my desk.

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Speaker 1: No one is asking for perfect and because it's like

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Speaker 1: but oh yeah, no they're not. No one's asking for it.

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Speaker 1: Where and when were you happiest?

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Speaker 2: For the time I read that question, where and when

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Speaker 2: was I happiest? I'm like happy recently happy in my life.

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Speaker 2: Happy is also a thing I'm consistently chasing what that

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Speaker 2: feels like. I think I'm probably the happiest one. I'm

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Speaker 2: not really thinking about anybody else's opinion, Like, I think

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Speaker 2: I'm probably the most happy when I wake up and

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Speaker 2: I just decide what I'm going to do about my day,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not worried about what my manager thinks I

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Speaker 2: should be doing, or what a friend thinks I should

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Speaker 2: be doing, or what a person around me thinks I

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Speaker 2: should be doing. I'm most happy when I wake up

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Speaker 2: and I have all the conviction in the world to

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Speaker 2: just do exactly what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting because what is excuse the pun, quite

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Speaker 1: literally baked into what you do is the approbation of

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Speaker 1: other people and them finding what you do quite literally delicious.

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Speaker 1: So is that part of your personality. You find something

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Speaker 1: like that kind of the hard iteration of something, but

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Speaker 1: you lean into it by finding moments that you do

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Speaker 1: just make yourself happy rather than everybody else.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's this deep need for me

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Speaker 2: to make other people happy, but I wouldn't say that

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Speaker 2: that's the thing that makes me happiest. You know, it

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Speaker 2: makes me very happy to feed people. It makes me

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Speaker 2: very happy to give people exactly what they want. I

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Speaker 2: think I'm kind of like the anti chef in a

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Speaker 2: lot of ways, Whereas like you go to a restaurant

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Speaker 2: and the restaurant's very much like no substitutions, and this

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Speaker 2: is chef's menu for me. I'm the kind of person

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Speaker 2: who's like, I actually want to make what you want

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Speaker 2: to eat, So like I'm down for substitutions, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: down for someone to walk in and say, can we

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Speaker 2: do this with no tomatoes? Like I really enjoy that

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Speaker 2: about people. I enjoy people's preferences Like that makes me happy.

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Speaker 2: But in that I'm kind of like doing what I want.

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Speaker 2: But there's freedom in that, you know, to like try

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Speaker 2: something new, Like actually, I've never made this the way

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Speaker 2: this person wants it, so let me try that out, Like,

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Speaker 2: that's fun. You know, I've never made sushi without fish before.

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Speaker 2: Let's do that.

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Speaker 1: That's cool, you know what I'm saying. I do. I

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Speaker 1: like it because it's the same thing with a director,

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Speaker 1: Like a director wants you to do something a certain way,

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Speaker 1: and you can get all esteemed and I've spent months

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Speaker 1: thinking about this and I want to do it this way,

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Speaker 1: or you can kind of go, well, I got the

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Speaker 1: bones of that, like that's there anyway, So trying it

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Speaker 1: another way is invariably interesting. But you kind of have

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Speaker 1: to consciously lean into that and not push up against it.

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Speaker 1: And I do think a lot of actors and I

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Speaker 1: think probably a lot of chefs that you said, they

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Speaker 1: do push up against that notion of I don't want

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Speaker 1: to do it another way. It's my way. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: this freedom and happiness and letting go of that, I guess.

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Speaker 2: I just when I think about waking up and kind

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Speaker 2: of doing what I want to do, like really it's discovery,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like I'm really into fried deserts right now,

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Speaker 2: so I just want to go in my studio and

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Speaker 2: just like do fried desserts and what will happen? Sort

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Speaker 2: of by proxy is I'll end up in this place

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Speaker 2: that is a really good place, and that's the editable place.

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Speaker 2: I post something about funnel cake, and I get messages

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Speaker 2: on like can we make this vegan? Can we make

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Speaker 2: this with nuts? Can we do this with this kind

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Speaker 2: of curd?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: And then it becomes collaborative and it becomes free, and

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Speaker 2: like that's another level of happy. But I think the

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Speaker 2: core of the happiness is waking up and deciding on

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Speaker 2: we're doing fried desserts. Like that's the juice that I

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Speaker 2: need to get to instead of waking up and having

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Speaker 2: per as. So much of my life is parameters. You know,

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Speaker 2: so much is like feeding this many people, but you

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Speaker 2: have this much heat, you have this much counter space,

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Speaker 2: you have this much refrigeration. I just think it's nice

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Speaker 2: to wake up and be like, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna go in my space and like feel it out.

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Speaker 2: Like that is a really happy place for me.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. I love that it's

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Speaker 1: connected with what you do. This is a good question

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Speaker 1: for you. What would be your last meal?

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Speaker 2: So I know I was thinking about this. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: is this a good question? Is this like the hardest question? Ever, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I the best meal for me would be something so

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Speaker 2: hearty and just so rich and something that sticks to

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Speaker 2: my bones because I'm about to just not even be

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Speaker 2: aware of my bones anymore. Like I just want to

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Speaker 2: feel so stuffed. I want like a stew. I want

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Speaker 2: something that's been in the oven for three days. I

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Speaker 2: want like short rib falling off the bone. I want

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Speaker 2: potatoes just over like rice. I want car rice, like

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Speaker 2: like potatoes on.

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Speaker 1: Rice or palenta.

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Speaker 2: Yes's like fakacha on the side, you know, Like, I

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Speaker 2: just want something that is going to just like be

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Speaker 2: the perfect, most filling, delicious bite I've ever had. I'm

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Speaker 2: not concerned with it being healthy. I'm not concerned with

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Speaker 2: what it's going to do to me. It's my last meal,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like I just want it to just a

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Speaker 2: bite that will spiritually take my shirt off.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm going to eat and get naked. That's how

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Speaker 1: I'm going out. That's it.

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Speaker 2: Like a bite that says so like be in a

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Speaker 2: circle with me, and whatever that is. I don't know

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Speaker 2: many like I'm reaching.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm so with you in the circle

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Speaker 1: of death with your short rim and your potatoes over rice.

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Speaker 1: Are joking I'm there. I'm starving. I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: eat that. I just love it. Now, what am I

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Speaker 1: going to cook on Instagram that's going to want to

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Speaker 1: make them all take their shirts off?

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Speaker 2: Listen? I asked my questions.

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Speaker 1: Knows, it's a whole new question. I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: be thinking about that. It's a very good barometer.

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Speaker 2: Like what's going to make my unled life really get going?

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Speaker 2: I think about my unled lives a lot, like I

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Speaker 2: could have ended up doing that. I could have ended

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Speaker 2: up doing that, like what would they want to eat?

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Speaker 2: You know, so like different versions of myself. But I'm

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Speaker 2: constantly thinking and questioning about who I want to feed

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Speaker 2: and why.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm. But I think that's good questions. I think that's

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Speaker 1: a very interesting question for a chef to have, not

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Speaker 1: like what am I cooking to impress? But like who

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Speaker 1: do I want to cook for? What am I giving?

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Speaker 1: What am I feeding? Quite literally? Yes? Good good questions.

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Speaker 1: What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so a fictional one. I have this idea. So

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Speaker 2: I grew up really food and secure, and my mom

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Speaker 2: is a substance abuser and my real dad never met

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Speaker 2: him before he died, I have no idea who he is.

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Speaker 2: So I had this idea in my head from like

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Speaker 2: kind of a younger age for whatever reason, that Freddie

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Speaker 2: Mercury was my dad and Donna Summer was my mom.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why, but like to me, those felt

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Speaker 2: like the best parents I could have ever imagined, Donna

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Speaker 2: with this hair and Freddy with this voice. So for me,

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Speaker 2: like that relationship, like those are just my dream parents.

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Speaker 2: Many I can't describe it to you like I sometimes

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Speaker 2: I imagine feeding them or talking to them, or like

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Speaker 2: I just you know, it's so strange and it's star

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Speaker 2: both of them are no longer with us, but I

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Speaker 2: just imagine that they would have loved each other a

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Speaker 2: lot and coincidentally loved me too, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, honestly, in three years of doing this, that is

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Speaker 1: hands down my favorite answer. Like it's so arresting that

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Speaker 1: that's what defines love for you, like that they exist,

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Speaker 1: these people that I can also tune into, like my

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Speaker 1: love of friend Emocury, in my love of Donna Sama,

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Speaker 1: and the idea of them as a carful is now

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Speaker 1: so delightful.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, is it gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: But also like so interesting because you know, you dropped

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Speaker 1: a lot of information in that, Like there's a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of what I suppose it's probably deemed really painful

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Speaker 1: history and to go, there's this joyful reimagining of what

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Speaker 1: is very painful, which I feel like we could do

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Speaker 1: that a lot more in our lives. Go yeah, this happened,

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Speaker 1: this is this thing, But here is this other definition.

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Speaker 1: And not only that you can say it's unlikely, but

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Speaker 1: it's not. This is my definition of what love would

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Speaker 1: look like or what love looks like.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I don't really know anything about my dad, and

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Speaker 2: instead of just being sad about it, I could just

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Speaker 2: imagine what we would have shared and what we would

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Speaker 2: have talked about, and what a dream dad looks like

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Speaker 2: for me? Is Freddy Like that is my dream dad,

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Speaker 2: Like in all the ways, that's like my dream voice,

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Speaker 2: the way that he looks at the work that he does,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of work ethic and the creativity and

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Speaker 2: the artistry, but also the fun and the glamor. I

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Speaker 2: would have loved to have a dad like that. And

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Speaker 2: the same with Donna. She struggled a lot with her

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Speaker 2: mental health and same and I think that it just

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Speaker 2: I imagine that they would have understood the struggles that

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Speaker 2: I went through. And also I feel like a fair

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Speaker 2: bit of even just the way they look even could

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Speaker 2: have maybe looked like me. Like there's something in them

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Speaker 2: that I really see myself in. And they just made

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Speaker 2: me feel really loved when I listen to their work.

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Speaker 2: And again, it's a totally fictional relationship in all the

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Speaker 2: ways it could be. They are not my parents, they

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Speaker 2: were not married.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, but that's very literally the notion of telling

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Speaker 1: a different story. I'm a big believer in re fictionalizing

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Speaker 1: hardshit in our lives. Yes, I write a memoir and

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Speaker 1: I'm writing a novel. And what's so interesting is that

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Speaker 1: you totally cannibalize your life and your stories. It's not

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Speaker 1: those people, but it is. And then I can shave

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Speaker 1: off the harsh corners that I wish weren't there, and

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Speaker 1: I can reimagine what the story would be with a

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Speaker 1: character who absolutely existed in my life, but I can

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Speaker 1: put them in. I think ecologically it's an incredibly healthy

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Speaker 1: thing to do. You read all the lines of your story, right,

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Speaker 1: why not?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they're perfect people, and I guess I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 2: like I don't know like an alley is dark and

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Speaker 2: still without weather if you want it to be, but

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Speaker 2: the alley at the other end of it can be

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Speaker 2: like bright and rainbows and whatever. And I think I

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Speaker 2: already know the childhood that I had, and it was

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Speaker 2: pretty dark and stormy and not great. And so I

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Speaker 2: think when I imagine my dream, it looks big and joyful

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Speaker 2: and intense and just has everything that I just didn't have.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know. There are definitely times where even

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Speaker 2: in my mind, I convinced myself like that's what you

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Speaker 2: got going on, like those are the dream parents. Let's

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Speaker 2: lead with that energy even though they weren't real, and agree,

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Speaker 2: it's very much helps me in my work. It helps

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Speaker 2: my work, helps me sleep, you know, so all.

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Speaker 1: Of the most important things and that idea, by the

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Speaker 1: way of leading with that energy, of choosing what that

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Speaker 1: is yourself, that's amazing. I love it. What question which

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Speaker 1: you most like answered?

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Speaker 2: I mean I think about this in like two camps.

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Speaker 2: It's like my personal questions in my life. And then

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Speaker 2: there's like these like big existential questions like why does

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Speaker 2: death exist? Why can't we live forever? There's those things.

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Speaker 2: But I think in my own life It's like I

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Speaker 2: wish I understood, like why my childhood was the way

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Speaker 2: that it was. I wish I knew if my dad

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Speaker 2: really cared about me. I wish I knew if he didn't.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think the why? What do you think

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Speaker 1: the why would do? Like, what do you think it

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Speaker 1: would do if you got the answer to that?

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Speaker 2: It's interesting many because like I know that it really

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't. I mean, I'm here, here, I am, It

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Speaker 2: wouldn't make a difference. It wouldn't make my life any different, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I think it's just the knowing of it. I think

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Speaker 2: that would be really nice to just know. Thinking about

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Speaker 2: if my dad actually cared about me does not keep

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Speaker 2: me up night. I'm fine, I'm okay, I'm an adult,

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Speaker 2: I'm here. I'm happy with Freddy being my imaginary father.

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Speaker 2: But I think it would just kind of help me

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Speaker 2: understand and like maybe rationalize or maybe like a younger person,

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Speaker 2: rationalize myself. I also understand it's like a really selfish question,

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Speaker 2: like of all the questions that you could possibly ask, No,

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Speaker 2: that's the question. It's so selfish.

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Speaker 1: It's not I don't think it is. First of all,

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Speaker 1: it's your answer and I think when you've lived so

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Speaker 1: long with a why that feels like a missing piece,

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Speaker 1: it's totally natural that that would be the question. The

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Speaker 1: only reason I ask is because I remember when, in

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Speaker 1: the depths of just profound heartbreak and the dissolution of

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Speaker 1: a really long relationship with someone that I loved who

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Speaker 1: just turn out to be an absolute ass, I asked

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Speaker 1: the therapist why, like why why why? As like clutching

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Speaker 1: at straws, and I remember her saying, if I could

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Speaker 1: answer that for you, it wouldn't change anything at all.

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Speaker 1: And I sort of held on to that like a

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Speaker 1: life raft because it wasn't ultimately satisfying, because I did

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Speaker 1: want to know why. But there was something about letting

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Speaker 1: go of the mental anguish of that why and actually

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Speaker 1: embracing the isness, which was super painful, but that did

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Speaker 1: actually evolve. The why never evolved, but the isness of

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Speaker 1: my life did, which was interesting. And I feel like,

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Speaker 1: quite clearly yoursiness is Donna and Freddy. It does feel

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Speaker 1: like you lead with their energy.

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Speaker 2: I do. I mean, I guess maybe it's like this

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Speaker 2: ecstasy of expectation. What is the answer I'm expecting. There's

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Speaker 2: something alluring about a question I can't get answered, and

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Speaker 2: so that's maybe why I can't let it go.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something primordial about a question you know you'll

402
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: never get answered. There's something about it that gets me

403
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 2: kind of fired up. And so that's why it's like

404
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Speaker 2: hard to let go of. I know the answer won't

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Speaker 2: make a difference, and I know I'll never.

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Speaker 1: Know because you have to radically live in acceptance. You

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Speaker 1: have to radically surrender, yes, and that's really hard. But also, ultimately,

408
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,919
Speaker 1: clearly what I don't know whatever one calls the universe,

409
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Speaker 1: God's source, whatever, that's clearly the we're here in our

410
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: little biospheres of existence, and then that's over. I like

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Speaker 1: the idea of living in that the weird, vastness of

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Speaker 1: our ignorance me too, which is something a neuroscientist came

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Speaker 1: on this show and said, and I haven't been able

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Speaker 1: to forget it, so I'll share that with you.

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Speaker 2: That's an amazing thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. What person, place, or experience most altered

417
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Speaker 1: your life?

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Speaker 2: Person? Oh my god, I mean my mom has definitely

419
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Speaker 2: altered my life in a really big way. I mean,

420
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: my mom is just a disaster, just a horrible mom

421
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Speaker 2: but also like my greatest inspiration at the same time

422
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Speaker 2: just inspires me to be absolutely not a thing like her,

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Speaker 2: but also in a way did her best, even the

424
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Speaker 2: struggles with substance abuse and the struggles with just her

425
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 2: own universe. I think hindsight is interesting when you look

426
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Speaker 2: back and you know she had multiple kids when she

427
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Speaker 2: was in her young twenties and struggling with substance abuse

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Speaker 2: and struggling with abuse from men, from physical abuse, It's like, yeah,

429
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Speaker 2: in a way, like my mom kind of did the

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Speaker 2: best that she could right and a time where there

431
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Speaker 2: was no the treatment. What was treatment? Did my mom

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Speaker 2: need to be like arrested for being a drug editor?

433
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Speaker 2: Did she need treatment? But no one was going to

434
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: provide that. She couldn't afford that, you know. So I

435
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 2: think my mom is definitely a person that's had an

436
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 2: incredible impact on who I try to be, who I

437
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: want to be. She is that crux of like be

438
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,719
Speaker 2: anything but that learn from that, learn from her as

439
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 2: a mom, and in that way she's been a great mom.

440
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: So it's like by default, really, but how did you

441
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: emerge from that into a person who gets to explore

442
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,719
Speaker 1: their creativity, who gets to bring something unique and different

443
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: and super articulate to a lot of people. How did

444
00:21:59,080 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: you come out of that?

445
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. It didn't start out the plan.

446
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: I'll say that it's like I was a nineteen year

447
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 2: old who just needed a job. Someone please hire me.

448
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I was a cook back when it

449
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 2: wasn't cool to be a cook, right Like I remember

450
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: back at two thousand and nine telling people that I

451
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 2: worked in a restaurant and want to be a chef

452
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: and they were like why, Like it was not it

453
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: didn't have the allure. I think what keeps me going

454
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: now is like, I have siblings. I have a great

455
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: relationship with my little sister, and we share those mom wounds.

456
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 2: We both have been through a lot. I think talking

457
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: about it, being open about it, my mom is still alive.

458
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: My mom is here. She's got plenty of mental health issues,

459
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: and she's got plenty of things that she struggles with.

460
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 2: And I think that it's acknowledging that my mom is

461
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 2: not a good mom and maybe in a lot of

462
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: times not a good person, but worthy of redemption. Has

463
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: been instrumental in my forgiving her and instrumental in my

464
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: loving her. My mom did horrific things to me and

465
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: my siblings, and I still love her. You know, she's

466
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: still my mom. She's so worthy of redemption just like

467
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 2: anyone else. None of us should be the sum of

468
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: our worst moments, even if our worst moments were literally

469
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: like thirty plus years of being a mom. My mom

470
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: teaches me about forgiveness. She teaches me about gratitude, and

471
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: so that's what I mean, Like, I have this fairly

472
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: complicated thing with her, Yeah, and with my gratitude. It's

473
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: like Michael J. Fox said, with gratitude, your optimism is sustainable, right,

474
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: That's how you keep those things sustainable. And I believe that,

475
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, I try to be optimistic about the destructive,

476
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: toxic relationship that my mom has bestowed upon me. I'm

477
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 2: still trying to be optimistic about it and have gratitude

478
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 2: for it, because at the end of the day, what

479
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: else is there. My life is good now, my little

480
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: sisters were good. Now we're okay, we're on the other

481
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 2: side of that. But if given the relationship that had

482
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 2: the biggest impact on me, it's my mom's. Like that

483
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 2: relationship is the sinkhole that I was trying desperately to

484
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: swim out of and so instead of just running away

485
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 2: from it, I just acknowledge it's there, and then it

486
00:23:59,080 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: can't hurt me anymore.

487
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you don't actively jump in it.

488
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: We don't jump in it. We definitely don't jump in

489
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 2: We don't jump in it. But I mean, if there's

490
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: a place that's had a big impact on me, it's

491
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 2: New York. New York has made me this person that's

492
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 2: comfortable to talk about where I came from. New York

493
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: is this place where every kind of person in the

494
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: world exists on top of one another. You have a

495
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: person that is experiencing homelessness sitting next to a woman

496
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: that's carrying a burkin. They're on the same train, headed

497
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: in the same direction, get off on the same stop. Right.

498
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: New York really teaches you that you are just one

499
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: of many. It taught me how to be part of

500
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: an organism again, and that had a really great impact

501
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: on me. You know, we all actually need each other,

502
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: whether we believe.

503
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 1: It or not. Amen, that's really good to be reminded

504
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: of that. I'm glad you got to feel part of

505
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: an organism again. That's really cool, Sophia. I can't thank

506
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: you enough. Thank you for just being so candid and

507
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: amazing and talking so beautifully about all of these hard

508
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: and wonderful things.

509
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, of course, thank you for having me the

510
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: best part of my day.

511
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 1: Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver,

512
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support

513
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: from Jennifer Bassett, Zoey Denkler, and Ali Perry. The theme

514
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: music is also by Me and additional music by Aaron Kaufman.

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00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jim Nicolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella, a,

516
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: Nick Oppenheim, A, Nick Muller and Annette Wolfe at w kPr,

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00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Nicki Etoor, Morgan Levoy and Mangesh at Ticketdore