1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: My mother taught seventh grade for over forty years, and 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: sometimes during meet the teacher, I would watch her. She 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: was so happy to see all the students and meet 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: the parents, and she had this natural excitement about what 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: the year was going to bring, and just this anticipation 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: of all the awards and accolades the students were going 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: to get. And she just started promoting how fabulous their 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: year was going to be the very first time she 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: met them. But every single year, almost instantly, as a 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: student and the parent would leave, she would say to me, 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: that's going to be my troublemaker. Now all this child 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: did was walking in the room, see where their desk 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: was going to be, meet my mama, and walk out. 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: But she knew this is going to be the shy child, 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: This is going to be be the jokester, this is 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: going to be the job, This is going to be 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: really the class clown. And then this child is going 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: to be the superstar. I mean, as soon as they 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: crossed the threshold, she knew. So I often tell people teachers, 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: especially elementary school teachers, are profilers. Tonight, our guest spent 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: twenty two years in the FBI investigating everything from violent 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: crimes like serial killers, to white collar crimes, to public 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: corruption to civil rights cold cases. Before joining the FBI, 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: our guest was a special agent with the Tennessee Bureau 25 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: of Investigation. She went on to become a team leader 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: for Boston's Rapid Evidence Response Team and then was selected 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: to the Elite BAU. Her education took her to the 28 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: University of Oregon, where she got a bachelor's degree in 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: chemistry and then went on to get a master's in 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: forensic science from George Washington. She was the head profiler 31 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: for the Golden State killer case, and she has a 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: podcast called The Consult Now. This podcast, true crime, of course, 33 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: examines behavior before, during, and after the commission of a crime. 34 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: And y'all have heard me talk about that pre and 35 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: posted behavior is a money tree. Julia, thank you so 36 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: much for being a part of Zone seven. 37 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. And I have to say 38 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: when I got your message, my heart skipped a beat. 39 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: I'm who, I'm thinking to myself, who's this famous person 40 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: reaching out to me? 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: Oh honey, come on now, me and you. I feel 42 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: like we could probably sit at a cop bar for 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: several hours and never miss a beat. 44 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: I feel the same way. I know we have a 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: lot in common, a lot of similar interests, and I'm 46 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: hoping we get through that today me too. 47 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: Before we really get into some of your cases and 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: talk about some of the highlights of your career, I 49 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: want to know your process. Do you have a particular 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: area that just draws you in. I mean, you just 51 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: gravitate towards something within a case file first, whether it's 52 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: photographs or reports or witness statements mac. 53 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: Everybody, at least the people that I work with, have 54 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: a different process. But because of my background in forensic science, 55 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: I am interested immediately in the crime scene photographs, the 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 2: autopsy and the autopsy photographs. That's where I go to first. 57 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: For me, I get the most out of that trying 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: to determine, Okay, what happened? Can I piece back together 59 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: what happened between the offender or offenders and victim or victims? 60 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: So that's what I gravitate toward, and that's my background. 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: And then also I always like to, of course look 62 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: at any lab results that might be available. In some 63 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: of the cases we work on, they're not available or 64 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: they just didn't have enough forensic evidence to get a 65 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: lot out of lab testing. 66 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: For me, I always say the photographs are the most honest. 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: You don't have any input, you can't change it. You 68 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: can't say your opinion, that's what it was. There's no opinion, 69 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: there's nothing that's moving somebody to have blinder zone. So 70 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: I like to start with what was it? What is 71 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: there that you know I can maybe see something somebody 72 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: else hasn't seen, or go ahead and say, hey, this 73 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: looks like blank. So for me, it's always the photographs. 74 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: And I mean, I guess like you're saying that comes 75 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: from being a crime scene investigator. I mean, obviously that's 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: our bread and butter. 77 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, not only the crime scene photographs, 78 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: but a you know, I'm certainly not a medical examiner, 79 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: but reading the autopsy and trying to DISTINGUI whish you know, 80 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 2: for instance, which wounds were deadly, which wounds were not. 81 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: Is there gratuitous violence or these mistakes or these defensive wounds. 82 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 2: So really studying the photographs along with the autopsy and 83 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: what the medical examiner, I think those for me, as 84 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: you said, you put it, tend to be the most honest. 85 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: And I want to be clear, I'm not saying anybody 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: in a witness statement or a police report is being dishonest. 87 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: I'm saying, just true, just factual. This is what was 88 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: left in the ash tray period. This is what was 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: in the trash can period. And nobody's you know, saying, 90 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, well, they seem to be a religious family 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: based on what one bible in the family room. You know, 92 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: I want the photographs. I don't want the conjecture. 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Right, And I agree, it's not about the honesty, but 94 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: it's when you look at a photograph and you write 95 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: down and interpret it, that is one step away from 96 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: from what's actually there, just you know, just one slightly step. 97 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: So I like to see it for myself, and of 98 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: course it's no different for me. My interpretation of it 99 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: is one step away from what we're looking at in 100 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: those photographs. 101 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: So you worked on the Golden State Killer, but you 102 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: knew that case as the East Area Rapist. 103 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: And when I did the analysis, when I got involved, 104 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: and the it was the Sacramento Division of the FBI 105 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: had received a request from the Sheriff's department for you know, 106 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: an updated profile, and that was about in twenty eleven, 107 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: and at the time it was still known as the 108 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: East aira rapist, original night stalker, So that was like 109 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: a combination name after the series of sexual assaults in 110 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: Sacramento were connected to the homicides in southern California in 111 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, and then they combined the names. 112 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: And then, of course it wasn't an until Michelle McNamara's 113 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: book I'll Be Gone in the Dark. She had dubbed 114 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: him the Golden State Killer in an article in LA 115 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: magazine prior to her book, and so that name that 116 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: was the name that stuck. 117 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: It is interesting to me because monikers matter. I'm a 118 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: big nickname moniker aka person, especially when you have a 119 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: case where you have more than one moniker and more 120 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: than one composite drawing. 121 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: We're big monikers in the FBI too, So if we 122 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: have a big type of investigation, we'll give it a name. 123 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: We won't just call it. You know, by all the 124 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: potentially you get out multiple subjects, you could have multiple victims. 125 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: You might not have the name of the offender or 126 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: the subject, and so we give titles and sometimes for 127 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: these bigger cases, what we would call major cases in 128 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: the FBI, we give it a name. So I'm used 129 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: to that, but I do understand how some people don't 130 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: like that because some times those names tend to glamorize 131 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: the offenders, and there's nothing glamorous about these offenders whatsoever. 132 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: But it makes it easier, and sometimes it makes it 133 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: so we all know who we're talking about. So once 134 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, once the name of the Golden State Killer, 135 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: we all knew who we were talking about. We were 136 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: talking about the person not only responsible for all the 137 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: sexual assaults, but they're also responsible for the murders that 138 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: occurred in southern California, So it kind of combined everything 139 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: and everybody was kind of on the page, Okay, this 140 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: is who it is. And I think partially having these 141 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: different monikers for this specific offender maybe created some confusion 142 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: and he sort of flew under the radar. I mean, 143 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 2: he really didn't become known until he became known as 144 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: the Golden State Killer. And then everybody knew of him 145 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: because it was it was easy to remember, and it 146 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: connected all of his offenses together. 147 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: So when you first get this case, I'm going to 148 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: assume it was more than one hundred pages. 149 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: It was about fifteen thousand. I think. 150 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: It was overwhelming, yeah, to say the least, And I 151 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: want everybody to understand. You're just not reading it like 152 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: a book. You're having to read and analyze and read 153 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: and analyze and put in some type of category in 154 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: section so that you can make sense of whatever profile 155 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: you're coming up with. 156 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: When I started, and it was really overwhelming. So what 157 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: I started with was just starting with the first offense 158 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: that the investigators attributed to this offender. And I got 159 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: about fifteen into it. I mean, it's about my fifteen offense, 160 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: and I started to notice some things and realize some 161 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: things about him in particular, and I thought, you know what, 162 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: I now that I'm starting to notice these things, I 163 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 2: need to start over and go back through and make 164 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: sure that what I'm seeing is in fact happening in 165 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: every single case. And you do that sometimes you have 166 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: to start back over if you notice something, And so 167 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: it took me a while. It probably took me a 168 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 2: full initially, probably about six months to really get a 169 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: handle on everything, but really about two years to really 170 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: finalize everything. 171 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: Did you find when you went back through that maybe 172 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: you even saw some sub level detail that you had 173 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: not noticed before. 174 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you always pick up something new, you know, it's 175 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 2: especially something like this, And what made I mean it 176 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: sounds like much more daunting than it actually was, because 177 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: this particular offender was so ritualistic and he did things 178 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: the same way almost every single time, and so that 179 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: made it a little bit easier. So what I tried 180 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: to focus on are the times where he didn't do 181 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: something this and what was going on around him or 182 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: how was the victim reacting or did the victim say something, 183 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: or was there some sort of outside influence that caused 184 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: him to deviate from his normal plan? And those were 185 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: the time. Those are the things that I tried to 186 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: focus on with him to really try to understand his personality, 187 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: traits and characteristics. 188 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: You're saying it like, oh, this is what I did, 189 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: and it's just you know, I took six months or 190 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: two years. I mean, you know obviously, but again for 191 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: some of us, and you think, okay, I'll give you 192 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: an example. You watch a movie, you love the movie, 193 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: you watch it again, you notice things. You watch it 194 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: a third time, you're like, oh, I didn't see that 195 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: or I didn't notice that. I get that part. But 196 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: it's also sometimes extremely difficult, you know, to edit your 197 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: own research paper. I mean you almost always have to 198 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: give it to somebody else. So when you start looking 199 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: at that case for a third time, a fourth time, 200 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: a nineteenth time, you've got it almost memorized now that 201 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: you can't say something new unless you just almost do 202 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: a grid sheet and look at it in spaces. 203 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: Right, And that you have to be very careful not 204 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: to get tunnel vision or to get so fixated on 205 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 2: your opinion. So that's why I didn't actually do this alone. 206 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: I mean I was the lead, and I was the 207 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: one that went through every piece of documentation that was 208 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: provided by the different agencies. And there were there were 209 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: you know, I think there were fifteen jurisdictions involved in 210 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: this investigation. I could be wrong, but I think it 211 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 2: was about fifteen. And so what I did is I, 212 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: you know, I worked alongside my colleague Bob Drew, who 213 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: was in the unit, but also I ended up doing 214 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: like an in house consultation with the entire unit. I 215 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: think a couple people weren't able to attend, but with 216 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: the units. So there were five or six of us 217 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: trained profilers going over the case to make sure that 218 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: I wasn't you know, getting tunnel vision, or I wasn't 219 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: I wasn't missing something or seeing something that was there 220 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: or or seeing something that wasn't there. So yes, So 221 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: that's why we do it. We don't do it all 222 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: by ourselves. It's it's really a group effort. And of 223 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: course you know, there's always a lead, and if there's 224 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: a disagreement, the tie goes to the lead, and ultimately, 225 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: if they can't agree, it will ultimately be my supervisor's decision, like, okay, 226 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to make the final determination if you know 227 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: if this is going to be what our analysis says 228 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 2: or not. So while I did look through everything, I 229 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: certainly didn't just go with my own opinion. I worked 230 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: with other people on creating the profile so that I 231 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 2: felt like it was the strongest product as possible. 232 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: But that's powerful to me, and it also speaks to 233 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: the way you operate in the whole bau because you 234 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: shouldn't have it all by yourself. You should look as 235 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: many people as can look at it. But I also 236 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: want to say again, most of us, through criminal minds 237 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: or whatever movies or whatever's just in our head about 238 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: the way y'all operate. It's all you know, wheels up 239 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: in thirty and you get to the scene and it's 240 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: all fabulous and you're working and then you're done and 241 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: you move on. But it's not that. 242 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: No, it's not that at all. I wish it was. 243 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: I wish it was not. Actually I don't, you know, 244 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: it's very much I would. You know, once you're in BAU, 245 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: you're not a typical investigator anymore. And you also have 246 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: to relinquish control because these cases that come into us 247 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: are not our cases. The agencies requesting and it's mostly 248 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: state and locals that request our assistance or requested our assistance, 249 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: and it's their case. We don't take it from them. 250 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: Can do whatever they want with our analysis. They can 251 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: you know, they don't have to agree with it. So 252 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: you know, this is this is not us going out 253 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: there and conducting the investigations or conducting the interviews or 254 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: making the arrests. It's it really is kind of a 255 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: desk job. We go through investigations that have already been 256 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: done and then you know, a lot of times we 257 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: will go out to the crime scenes and look at them, 258 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: I mean not you know, they're certainly you know the 259 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: you know they it's certainly not the same as you 260 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: know when the victims were found. You know, we're not 261 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: processing crime scenes. But you know, if if we can 262 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: go to a location and it hasn't changed much, it's 263 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: it's a really good idea to see to go there 264 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: and see it for ourselves to get the perspective. But 265 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: other than that, it's not it's not the same. It's 266 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: we're not kicking indoors, we're not doing arrests, we're not interviews, 267 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: at least not interviews that are investigative interviews. And there's 268 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 2: a lot of research that's done, and you might be 269 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: conducting interviews for research, but even that's rare. There's a 270 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: whole other unit dedicated to research. So it's really just 271 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: you're a consultant and you're reviewing the work, and then 272 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: a lot of times we provide investigative suggestions on cases, well, 273 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: we know, can you see if you can obtain this information, 274 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: And sometimes there's further investigation that we recommend, and then 275 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: they come back and then we update our analysis for them, 276 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: So it's a process. 277 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: I always tell people there is nothing that takes the place. 278 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: I'll walk in that scene and then I usually use 279 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: an updated example, and recently I've used the Delphi murders. 280 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: Until you walk that and get to that bridge and 281 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: then walk to way where the victims were found and 282 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: know what's on each side. You can't possibly understand what 283 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: that place looks like. And to me, it does give 284 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: insight to the killer because he picked that place, He 285 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: picked that bridge, he picked that park, he picked that day, 286 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 1: he picked that time, he picked those victims. So that 287 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: tells you something about him. For me, walk in the 288 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: scene usually adds so much for me of the perpetrator. 289 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: I completely agree. And I can think of one case 290 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: in particular where a woman, she was an older woman 291 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: who owned a bookstore, and she was murdered in her bookstore. 292 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: So we went out to the scene and it was 293 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: on a busy road. But we get there and we 294 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: see that the front door, so the bookstore was attached 295 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: to her home and it had like a little walkway 296 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: out to the bookstore. But the front door to the 297 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 2: bookstores was covered in ivy and you couldn't even see 298 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: it from the road. It was you wouldn't have known 299 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: it was there. And she did deal. There were some 300 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 2: antiques in there, and it was you know, she sold 301 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: little knickknacks in there, and she dealt with people who 302 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: she knew mostly, And I thought this is very strange 303 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: because if somebody wasn't familiar with this area just happened 304 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: to be passing by, they're not going to know to 305 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: go into that door, that you wouldn't see it. And 306 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: so that was an AHA moment for me having seen 307 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: it and you could not you could not tell that 308 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: by the crime scene photos that how hidden the front 309 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: door to her business was. And it turned out that 310 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: the killer was a kid, you know, right down the street. 311 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: You take that neighborhood. How far is that neighborhood from 312 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: a town, How far is it from a church, how 313 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: far is it from a school, how far is it 314 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: from apart? Well, that's going to shrink your suspect pull immediately. 315 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: And with a hidden door, I mean, it sounds lovely, 316 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: but it also sounds very dangerous. 317 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, So I completely agree. It was always 318 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: very important. It wasn't necessary in every case, I mean, 319 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 2: and it was almost impossible for us to go out 320 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: to every scene, but every time I did, I got 321 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: something out of it. And I want to back up 322 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: to something that you said earlier about going back over 323 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: the cases and finding something you missed every single time, 324 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: And even with the Golden State Killer, I am still 325 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: finding things that I missed, and I kicked myself. And 326 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: one thing recently was pointed out to me by a 327 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: listener and I'm like, that's a great point. I wish 328 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: where were you when I needed you? It was a 329 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 2: fantastic point, and it was something I had net I 330 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 2: had not considered it, and I wished I had. You know, 331 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: even to this day, all these years later, and everything 332 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: that I know about the case or think I know 333 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 2: about the case, I'm still like I'm learning things still, 334 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: you know, and and you know, you're not always going 335 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 2: to be right. You're not always going to catch everything. 336 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 2: You do your best, and that's why sometimes having you know, 337 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 2: other eyes on it, from other perspectives can be really helpful. Yeah. 338 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: I got an email from a listener and I wrote 339 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 2: back and I said, that's a great point. And I 340 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: think he was surprised that I didn't say, Oh, what 341 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 2: are you talking? You don't know what you're talking about. Oh, 342 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: I didn't miss anything. 343 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: What do you know? Are you saying? 344 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: Wait a second? No? He was. He's like, wow, what 345 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: is such a nice response. And I'm like, I just wish, 346 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 2: you know. I can't I can't fake that. I should 347 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: have caught that that's a great point, you know, and 348 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: it was. It was a small point and a subtle point, 349 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: but garn it. I wish I got it. 350 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: But you know, it's so funny, Julia, because people have 351 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: this idea that you have to be an expert in 352 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: every single thing. Well that's not possible. So I mean, 353 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: I don't speak another language, I don't read music. I 354 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: mean there's lots of things that I'm going to miss 355 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: because there's no way I would be able to know 356 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: what is happening. I don't know why somebody would have 357 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: that sheet music on a piano. I don't know why 358 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 1: somebody would write in that language or have that symbol. 359 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: So to me, more people that you have that you 360 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: can trust, that you say hey, And I do this 361 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: all the time. And some of my best buddies that 362 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: are former FBI, I will call them and I'll say, Okay, 363 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: what am I missing? I'm going to send you this. 364 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: This is I know I'm missing something, but I just can't, 365 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, see it or think of it. And 366 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: when you have people again and this is critical that 367 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: you trust to you know, sit with you and talk 368 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: to you and go, hey, have you thought about this 369 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: or why don't you contact this person and you know, 370 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: you learn so much, right, Like, y'all have access to 371 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we don't have at the 372 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: local level. However, it's a phone call and y'all will come. 373 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: And I mean, to me, what a great way to 374 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: work that I don't have to know. I don't have 375 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: to solve it. I don't have to be the smartest 376 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: or the best or even adequate. I can call somebody 377 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: who is. 378 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 2: You're exactly right. You don't have to know everything, and 379 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: that sometimes I think the mistake some people make is 380 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: that they think they have to know everything. It's okay 381 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: to not know everything. I certainly don't know everything. And 382 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: I'm always like you, calling people that I know, particularly 383 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: like can you please interpret this these lab reports? And 384 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: or can you interpret these. 385 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: Wounds for me? 386 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: What does this mean to you? And I'm always doing that, 387 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 2: and I think that just that helps because it puts 388 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: everything you know. It makes your your analysis more accurate. 389 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: And you know, I've always tried to surround myself with 390 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: people that I think are better than me, because that 391 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 2: just makes me better, and people that I think no 392 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: more than I do, or who can teach me. And 393 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: you know that will only make me better. And to 394 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 2: do that, though, you kind of have to be vulnerable. 395 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: You have you have to you know you and you 396 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: have to be able to take criticism. You have to 397 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: be able to admit when you're wrong. You have to 398 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: be able to admit when you don't know everything, because 399 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: it can be hard when you're like, you think you've 400 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: worked so hard on something and somebody is like, you know, 401 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: this really isn't it's not quite right here, or I 402 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: don't I think you miss something or and you have 403 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: to be you have to be willing to be open 404 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: to that and and if you're not, then you're gonna 405 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: make You're gonna make mistakes and it's not going to 406 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: be the best quality product is possible. 407 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: And it's funny because you know, you hear people in 408 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: the public and they'll say things like, oh, that was overkill, man, 409 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: it really wasn't overkill, And then you hear them say 410 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: mass murder when that's not what he is either. You know, 411 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: So to me, when I have a situation, you know, 412 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: I have one really good friend and she's a psychopathologist, 413 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: and I look out and reach out to her all 414 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: the time, and so sometimes I'll call her and I'll say, okay, girl, 415 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: look all I know is he's crazy, he's a rat 416 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: and a coffee. Can can you please add to that? 417 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: So then she'll come back and she'll say, look, this 418 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 1: is what I see, this is why he's doing it. 419 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: He drew this picture and left it at the scene 420 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: because and what I see from this picture is one, two, three, 421 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: four or five. And it'll blow my mind that she 422 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: got all of this from a drawing where what I 423 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: got from it is he's crazy. That to me is 424 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: so beneficial and so powerful that to me it's not 425 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: even having to admit I didn't know something or I 426 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: was wrong. I'm still right. He's crazy and he's probably 427 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: gonna hurt somebody again, really badly. But she's able to 428 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: give me information that I can help the detective say, 429 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: you're looking for this type of person. 430 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: Right, And that's your instinct, that's your your instinct from 431 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: years of being in this kind of work, and maybe 432 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: even the instinct you're born with. And so you have 433 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: this feeling, and it's always great to have that person 434 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: that can help you articulate what you're seeing. And sometimes 435 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: we can't really put our finger on something. What am 436 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: I saying, why is this bothering me? What am I missing? 437 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 2: And then you have the person you can go to 438 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: and they can put they can put your feelings into 439 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: words for you and it's like ah, and then you 440 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 2: can explain it. So and I have those people that 441 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 2: I can do, you know, and there'll be times where 442 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 2: like why do I have a bad feeling about this? 443 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: Or what am I I can't quite put my finger 444 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: on this, and then you know, and these people are 445 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 2: part of my podcast as well, and they can help 446 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: me articulate like my maybe my gut feelings or my 447 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: instincts that I can't quite articulate. And it's great to 448 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: be surrounded by people like that. 449 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: To me, it changes your entire career when you have 450 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: those people. And that's the whole premise of Zone seven, 451 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: as you know, those people that have your back, that 452 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: you can trust, that are only looking out for you, 453 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: that cheer for you, that are not going to do 454 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: anything to hurt you, only elevate you. That's the whole 455 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: point and hopefully we can do that for them in 456 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: return in some way. But yeah, it's it's a game 457 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: changer for me to have stuff and my son has 458 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: just started a career and he's an investigator with the 459 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: Public Defender's Office. And one thing I said to him 460 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: the day before he started, I gave him a print 461 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: out of some people their names, email and phone number, 462 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: and I said, look, there's a lot I cannot do 463 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: for you, but one thing I know I can do 464 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: for you is give you people that can help you. 465 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: And so I just gave him a few people to 466 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: start with that I knew, you know, if I wasn't 467 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: able to be around, that he had somebody he could call. 468 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: And that, to me is the ticket. Whether it's professionally 469 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: or personally. 470 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: It really is a team effort. You can't do it 471 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: all by yourself. And if you did, as I was 472 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 2: saying earlier, you're going to miss something. Yeah, and you 473 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: know you rely on these pool and really don't. We 474 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: all have the same goal. We all have the same goal. 475 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 2: And if you know, we're all working toward justice and 476 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: that's that is the bottom line, and we want to 477 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: do the best we can. It doesn't matter if you 478 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: know somebody else knows something more than you about a 479 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 2: particular subject, that is not a reflection of you. Your 480 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: ability to reach out to that person and know where 481 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: to go and get those resources to do that. That 482 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 2: is a reflect you are still even if you're not 483 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 2: the one that, oh, I solved it or I got that, 484 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 2: you are a big part of getting it solved because 485 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: you are willing to reach out to the people who 486 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: can help you. And that's you know, that can take 487 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: a lot for some as you know, egos in our business. 488 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: What are you talking about. I don't know, no. 489 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: Egos, but there are and you have to you really 490 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: have to set it aside. And I think too as 491 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: you as you get older, it gets a little easier 492 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 2: to just say, you know, to not be so opinionated 493 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: and you know and recognize that you're wrong. And especially 494 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: like in behavioral analysis, there is there is room for error. 495 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: And if you tie yourself so tight to one theory 496 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: and that turns out to not be right, it's really hard. 497 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: So with behavioral announce it's a little bit more like, Okay, 498 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: it's likely this, but you know, you have to recognize 499 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: it's not always going to be right in anybody that 500 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: says that they're always right or that behavioral analysis can 501 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: identify if an offender like that, that just can't happen. 502 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: It's impossible. So you know, just admitting that I could 503 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: be wrong about this, and if you kind of go 504 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: into things with that mindset, it's a little bit easier 505 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: to take if you are wrong. 506 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: But that's that's really important, to be able to say, 507 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: this is what it looks like to me, but it 508 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: might be something different, you know. Now, that's that's really important. 509 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: And again not just in your business, in a lot 510 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: of businesses mm hmmm. 511 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: I mean, and certainly there's some fields where you really 512 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 2: can't be wrong. You gotta get you got to get 513 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: those diagnoses right. Yeah, yeah, but you know in something 514 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: like behavioral analysis, where it's it's really not an exact 515 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: same Now, obviously we rely on the you know, the 516 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: laboratory results have to be right, and you know those 517 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: things are more concrete, but with behavioral analysis, yeah, you 518 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: you know, you're going to have to realize this isn't 519 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: going to be one hundred percent, but you also have 520 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: to trust the process and you know, do it as 521 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: thoroughly and in as unbiased way as you can. 522 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: People also have to realize your analysis is only as 523 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: good as the information that you're given, and if something 524 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: really critical is left out, it could change what you're seeing. 525 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: We had a case in Georgia where it looked like 526 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: a suicide, but then the person that the victim was with, 527 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: nobody knew for a long time, was a butcher. So 528 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: then they're like, well, would he know exactly where to stab? 529 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: Would he know exactly how to do this? So again, 530 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: everything matters. Every piece of information to me is critical. 531 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 2: You know, we write reports when we finished an analysis, 532 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: summarizing Okay, here's what we're told, and here are our 533 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 2: observations and our analysis, and if there's investigative suggestions, And 534 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: at the end of every report we say that this 535 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: is just based on the information that's been given to us, 536 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: and that if new information is developed, then this analysis 537 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: could potentially change, and it really is as good as 538 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: the information, and we have to rely on that information 539 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 2: as accurate. You know, we're relying that they you know, 540 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: they've done a thorough job here and that this is right. 541 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: I mean, if I see lab results and they say, 542 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: you know, this is you know the result, this is 543 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: the DNA analysis, and I rely on that, so I 544 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: rely Okay, that is somebody else's DNA and this is 545 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 2: the victim's DNA, so I rely on that. And if 546 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: there's a mistake done then, which typically never I've never 547 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: known that to happen, but at least it is never 548 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: in any of my cases. But but you know, if 549 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: there was a mistake done at some point in the investigation, yeah, 550 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: that could alter what the analysis that we're giving. 551 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: And like I told people recently about Tupac, should we 552 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: all thought should Knight had more information that he wasn't giving. 553 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: We all thought Orlando Anderson was the number one, if 554 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: not only suspect. And then dude comes out with a book, 555 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: and now you have information you didn't have before where 556 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: he basically confesses in the book that, oh, yeah, I 557 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: gave him the gun and Orlando went to work. I mean, 558 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: so again, having everything is going to change your case. 559 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: So let's jump into some of the cases that you 560 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: were involved in beyond the Golden State Killer. I want 561 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: to talk about one of the cases that probably impacted 562 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: you greatly, the Walika cases out of Oklahoma. 563 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: It did so Walika, Oklahoma. That case involved the double 564 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: homicide of two younger girls, Taylor Pascal Placer and Skyla Whittaker. 565 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: They were aged eleven and thirteen. They were very close friends, 566 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: and this was in June of two thousand and eight, 567 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: and they were walking down a dirt road in a 568 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: very rural area, not too far from Taylor's house, and 569 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: they were shot and killed on the dirt road. And 570 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: they were killed with two guns. And it wasn't too 571 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: long they had left to go for a walk. They 572 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: had left Taylor's house to go for a walk, and 573 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: her grandfather found them shortly after. And it was a 574 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: case that I saw in the news. It was before 575 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 2: I was in the behavioral analysis unit, and I'd seen 576 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: it on the news. It made national news, and I 577 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 2: thought to myself, Oh, what kind of person would do that? 578 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: And when I was growing up, I grew up in 579 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: a small town in Oregon, and I lived on a 580 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: dirt road and I would go walking on that dirt road, 581 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: and I from my runs on that dirt road, and 582 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: I thought, gosh, that's you know similar it could you know, 583 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: I just could really relate to that. And I just couldn't, 584 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 2: you know, imagine. So so I was like, what kind 585 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: of person would do something like that? And I would 586 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: follow the case in the news to see if there 587 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 2: were updates. Every now and then I would I would 588 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: search and see, you know, what's the news on it, 589 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: and there there were reports and they were looking for 590 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 2: a stranger that had been seen in the area, but 591 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: you know, potentially, and but there there wasn't a ton 592 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: of progress. And then I by the time I was 593 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: in the Behavioral Analysis unit, I had looked up the 594 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: case and I saw a report that the Oklahoma State 595 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 2: Bureau of Investigation was going to be asking the FBI 596 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: for assistance, specifically the Behavioral Analysis Unit. And at this 597 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: time I was still in training. I was not a 598 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 2: certified profiler yet. And as part of our training, we 599 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: have to work cases in the different units, and I 600 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: had I was assigned to the crimes against adults units, 601 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: so I didn't typically work crimes against the children, but 602 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: I needed to do one as part of my training. 603 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: And I saw that and I went to my boss 604 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: and I said, do you think that they'll let me 605 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: do this case as part of my training? And he said, well, 606 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: why don't you go ask I have no problems with it. 607 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: So I went down to the other supervisor of the 608 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: Crimes against Children unit and asked if I could be 609 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: assigned the case is my training, and he agreed. And 610 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: then I sat there and I thought, oh, boy, all 611 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 2: these years I wondered, what kind of person could do 612 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: something like this, and now it's my job to find 613 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: that out. So it was kind of it was a 614 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 2: very surreal moment that I had been so interested in 615 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 2: that case and then it was now my case to 616 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 2: look at, or least, you know, my case to assist on. 617 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: But you know, you do feel like it is your 618 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: case in a way, but you also realize that you 619 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 2: don't have control over what the investigators decide to do. 620 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: So so that that was a case that meant a 621 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: lot to me to be able to assist with. And 622 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 2: you know, there were some things about that particular case 623 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: that I you know, when you go into the went 624 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: into the analysis, and you know, they were asking for Okay, 625 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 2: we want to we want a profile of the offender 626 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 2: is basically what they're asking for. And in the BAU 627 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 2: we call it a criminal investigative analysis because it can 628 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: be so much more than just a profile. But in 629 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: this case, this is what they wanted, and so there 630 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 2: were some things. You know, there were disagreements among some 631 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 2: of the investigators because there were multiple weapons used. They 632 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: thought that there had there could potentially be two offenders. 633 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 2: They were thinking that it was potentially they had sent 634 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: out a composite and that you know, could potentially be 635 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: the stranger in the area. And uh, and I also 636 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: wanted to try to figure out what the motive was. 637 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: So those were kind of the three questions I was 638 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: trying to answer, you know, was it one or two offenders? 639 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 2: Is this a local or is this a you know, stranger? 640 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 2: Is it what was the motive for their killings? And 641 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: then ultimately based on you know, what I saw between 642 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 2: the interaction between the offender and the victims, what what's 643 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: the profile of this offender? So that was the task 644 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 2: at hand on that case. And you know, in that case, 645 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 2: Mac what really I mean, I I studied the crime 646 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 2: scene photos and I studied the autopsies. Those were key 647 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 2: to me, or you know, two major things to kind 648 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 2: of determine and piece back together what happened that day 649 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: on the road. And it was like, this is a 650 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 2: Sunday afternoon, it was the beginning of summer, it was 651 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: still light out, it was it was a beautiful day. 652 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: And what you know, just just to kind of compare 653 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 2: and contrast this beautiful day with this horrifying thing that 654 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 2: happens on this you know road in this in this 655 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 2: lovely area, and so those were the questions. That was 656 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 2: kind of what I was, you know, going toward, is 657 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: to you know, piece back together this, you know, what 658 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 2: what actually happened, and and looking at the odd top season, 659 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 2: looking at the crime scene photographs and the the really 660 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: well done crime scene investigation, there were some there were 661 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 2: some great notations that the the crime scene investigators had 662 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 2: made that were key that I couldn't have uh interpreted 663 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 2: from the photographs. So I was able to kind of 664 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: piece back together what I thought the sequence of events were, 665 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 2: which was basically that the one victim, Taylor, was probably 666 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 2: shot first, and then Skyla turned to run, and then 667 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: he shot her multiple times and then went and got 668 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: a different gun, which was a twenty two, and then 669 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 2: shot both of them point blank in the head. And 670 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 2: in looking at this, because so many investigators thought this 671 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 2: had to be two offenders because there were two guns, 672 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 2: you know, I had to consider that. But what I 673 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: found is that there, you know, there was nothing that 674 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: had occurred simultaneously where it had to be two offenders. 675 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: This could have been done by one offender. And so 676 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: then I kind of rely on statistics, and statistically when 677 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 2: you have a double homicide, you usually only have one offender, 678 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 2: so I just kind of like defaulted back, Okay, this 679 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 2: is likely just one offender, because one offender could have 680 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 2: accomplished this. And then another really key piece to this 681 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: investigation was the girl victimology. And I think sometimes victimology 682 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: really gets overlooked in an investigation because sometimes questions can 683 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 2: be hard to ask because you don't want to come 684 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 2: across as you're blaming a victim. But we really do 685 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 2: need to know everything possible about a crime victim and 686 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: every bit of information good and bad, because that kind 687 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 2: of assesses their risks. And what I learned about these 688 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 2: two victims, there was a lot of speculation about, well, 689 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 2: you know, they were communicating with somebody online and that 690 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: person came and killed them or met up with them, 691 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: or they came across a meth lab, or they were 692 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 2: going to rat out somebody, or this was a revenge 693 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 2: killing because their you know, their parents were involved in 694 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 2: drug dealings. There were a lot of rumors. I mean, 695 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 2: this is a small town area and this was one 696 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 2: of the biggest homicide investigations that you know, had ever 697 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 2: occurred in Oklahoma. So as you know, Mac, there's a 698 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 2: lot of talk, oh yeah, and I needed to you 699 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 2: just need to block all that out. And so what 700 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: I had investigators do is I had them take questionnaires 701 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 2: that we called general assessment questionnaires, and this was to 702 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 2: build on the victimology. And I wanted people who knew 703 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 2: the girls well to fill out these questionnaires for me, 704 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 2: whether they were their friends, teachers, parents, you know, as 705 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 2: many as possible so I could really understand who these 706 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 2: victims were and where their risks might have come from. 707 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 2: And what I learned was they were very low risk victims. 708 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: You know, all these rumors about them, none of them 709 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 2: were true. They didn't really have access to any internet. 710 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 2: One of the girls did have a cell phone, but 711 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: the only calls ever made were to her grandparents. They 712 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 2: neither they weren't involved in drug activity, they weren't dating yet. 713 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 2: They were both a little boy crazy, but there was 714 00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 2: nothing that indicated to me that that they were involved 715 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: in any kind of lifestyle that could put them at 716 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: risks for this. So what I really ultimately concluded is 717 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 2: that the motive for this murder was formed on the 718 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: road that day, like somebody came across them. And I 719 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: also thought, this has got to be a local just 720 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 2: based on the area. And this was a dirt road, 721 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 2: it was a cut through used by locals. It wasn't 722 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 2: well traveled. So I thought somebody came across them that 723 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 2: day and whatever happened, and we didn't, of course know, 724 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 2: but decided to kill them, and not only kill them, 725 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 2: but you know, there he's shot and killed them, and 726 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: he goes in and retrieves another weapon and then shoots 727 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 2: them both point blank practically in the head. These are 728 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: the coup de grass, so making sure they're dead. And 729 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: so that obviously tells you a lot about somebody like 730 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: what could two you know, wonderful girls who were adored 731 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 2: by their friends and families and their teachers do to 732 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 2: somebody that would cause them to do this horrible act? 733 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 2: And so it really tells me that tells you a 734 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 2: lot about this offender. Is this is yeah, I mean, 735 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,919 Speaker 2: there's you know, that's not hard to make the leap 736 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 2: that this person could have absolutely no care in the 737 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 2: world for anybody else. And you know, and I pointed 738 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 2: out some things that I thought would be characteristic of 739 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: that kind of person that just lacks that empathy for 740 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: anybody else and doesn't care about anybody else. And I 741 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 2: think the other thing that I had said was so 742 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 2: the first weapon used, the laboratory believed it to be 743 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 2: likely a glock, and the second was a twenty two. 744 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 2: Going back to the victimology and making this determination that 745 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 2: whatever happened on the road, or whatever the motive was, 746 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 2: happened on the road that day, that this was not planned, 747 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 2: and so therefore this offender is at least likely carrying 748 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 2: around two guns with him at all times, or people 749 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 2: and know him to be carrying around these guns. And 750 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: the shooting was well done, he didn't miss. It was 751 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 2: you know, it was done quickly, it was done efficiently. 752 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 2: So I thought this was somebody who had firearms experience, 753 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 2: and so I had told when I told the investigators, 754 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 2: you know, I guess a little moment of levity in 755 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 2: a very serious situation. I said, well, this guy's a 756 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 2: gun nut. And they all like, this is Oklahoma man, 757 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 2: I said. I said no, I said, hear me out here, 758 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,760 Speaker 2: you know, because I grew up in a small towner 759 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 2: there are lots of hunters, and they carry their guns 760 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 2: and their gun racks in the backs of their trucks. 761 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 2: I said, this is not who I'm talking about. I'm 762 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 2: talking about somebody who's like obsessed about this, probably practices, 763 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 2: probably you know, probably brags to people that he can 764 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 2: use his guns, and so not not just your normal, 765 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 2: you know, average hunter who as guns or somebody who's 766 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 2: just you know, carrying a gun for protection. This is 767 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 2: somebody who like has pride in these weapons. And they're like, okay, 768 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 2: so they weren't laughing at. 769 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, from the way you're describing even the road, 770 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: not only would I say he's a local, he's right there. 771 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it had to be local. And in going out 772 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 2: to this area, there are all these it was a 773 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 2: series of dirt roads, and they don't have like they're 774 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,720 Speaker 2: not they don't have typical names. They're they're numbered roads. 775 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 2: So even when the nine to one one call goes in, 776 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 2: the grandmother who makes the nine to one one call 777 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 2: is trying to tell the dispatcher where they are, and 778 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 2: it's very confusing, and driving out there, I was completely confused. 779 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 2: Every you know, every corner you come up to, it 780 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 2: all looks the same to me, and I thought, this 781 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 2: has got to be somebody that's local. And and you know, 782 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 2: a couple months later, after I gave the profile, I 783 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,879 Speaker 2: got a phone call from the local FBI agent. He said, hey, 784 00:45:54,000 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 2: OSBI has arrested a guy who they believe killed his fiance. 785 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 2: And the lead investigator, who is a lead investigator for 786 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 2: the double homicide was had interviewed this guy. His name 787 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 2: was Kevin Sweat, and he told the FBI agent he 788 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 2: fits the profile, you know he's And so I get 789 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 2: this phone call and I tell the FBI agent I said, listen, 790 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 2: I love how you're thinking. I'm really glad he's embraced 791 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 2: the profile. But you just because I mean, and certainly 792 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 2: just because he did this and it's really bad, doesn't 793 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 2: you know that's a big leap to make. And they're like, no, 794 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 2: he fits the profile, he fits the pro And as 795 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 2: they started to tell me characteristics about him, I started 796 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 2: getting this feeling like I think this is him, this 797 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 2: could could be him, and what are the chances? I 798 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 2: mean this and so, but one of the things that 799 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 2: they sent me, or they told me that he was posting, 800 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 2: he had posted photos of himself online and these photos 801 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 2: were sort of I guess glamour shots of himself posing 802 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 2: with guns. And I'm like, that's what I mean. Even 803 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 2: though at the time I didn't. I didn't clearly know. 804 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,439 Speaker 2: I just knew this is going to be somebody who's 805 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 2: kind of obsessive with these guns. But when I saw that, 806 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,839 Speaker 2: you know, in a picture format, and like, that's him, 807 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 2: that's him, and of course trying not to get to 808 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 2: you know, no, I didn't want to have tunnel vision 809 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 2: too much, and but I had a like that, that's 810 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 2: that's what I was talking about. And so we developed 811 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:46,759 Speaker 2: an interview strategy for the lead OSBI investigator, and he 812 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 2: conducted an interview and Kevin Sweat ultimately did admit to 813 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,520 Speaker 2: the murders. It wasn't a perfect confession. He claimed that 814 00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 2: he saw, you know, he's kind of trying to pretend 815 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 2: to he'd be crazy, and he claimed that he saw 816 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 2: he was driving down the road, he saw monsters coming 817 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 2: at him, and so we had to shoot and kill them. 818 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 2: Then he gets back in his car and then they 819 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 2: come at him again, so then he's got to get 820 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 2: out and shoot them again. And you know, although although 821 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 2: that's not a perfect admission, what that tells us is 822 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,280 Speaker 2: he's telling us. I mean, that was exactly the sequence 823 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 2: of events that I had described. After going through the 824 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 2: crime scene photos and the autopsy, and that's how I 825 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 2: had pieced it back together, and only he would know 826 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 2: that that was the sequence of events. I thought, you know, 827 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,760 Speaker 2: I think I think this is him. And he ultimately 828 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 2: admitted that he had pulled over to take a leak 829 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 2: on the road. And you know, they've never I don't 830 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,879 Speaker 2: think they've ever gotten an official motive, but hearing him 831 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,880 Speaker 2: say that, I thought, Okay, what is he really saying. 832 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 2: What he's saying there is that he exposed himself on 833 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 2: that road, and so what I think happened, and you're, 834 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 2: you know, we are dealing with somebody who has you know, 835 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 2: has a you know, irrational response to things. So what 836 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 2: I think happened is that he exposed himself to the girls, 837 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 2: and I think one of them recognized him because he 838 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 2: did work in fast food with the older sister of 839 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,600 Speaker 2: one of the girls, so there was a connection and 840 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 2: at least somebody they either recognized him, or they said 841 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 2: something to him that was offensive, or they said we're 842 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 2: going to tell on you, and he was not going 843 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,719 Speaker 2: to have that. So I think that's what I think 844 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 2: the motive was, because I think, even though he doesn't 845 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 2: admit it, I think, what is he telling us he 846 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 2: actually did. He exposed himself, and so that's what I think. 847 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 2: And then, you know, one other piece that really goes 848 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 2: to you know, his fragile ego and his you know, 849 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 2: his lack, complete lack of connection to any kind of 850 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 2: real emotion was when he's on the phone. He's under arrest, 851 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 2: and as you know, they record all the jail calls, 852 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,720 Speaker 2: and people never pay attention to the recording that tells 853 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 2: you you're being recorded. But we were listening to all 854 00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 2: his jail calls and the investigators would send them to me. 855 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 2: And at one point, his mother tells him they're going 856 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 2: to charge you because he's already been charged with the 857 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,840 Speaker 2: murder of his fiance, and she tells him they're going 858 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 2: to charge you with the murders of those girls. And 859 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 2: his response to her is, what is that going to 860 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,920 Speaker 2: do to my reputation? And so that tells me that 861 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,959 Speaker 2: it doesn't It didn't take much. Did not take much 862 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 2: for him to feel like, oh wow, if people find 863 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 2: out how exposed myself, that's going to hurt my reputation. 864 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 2: So I think it's hard for people to understand that 865 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 2: it can be something that simple for somebody like that 866 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 2: to ultimately, you know, take the steps that we can't 867 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 2: even imagine, like normal people quote normal would never imagine that. 868 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,799 Speaker 2: But there are people out there and he was one 869 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 2: of them. And that's really what the profile was showing, 870 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 2: like we are not dealing with somebody that cares about 871 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,760 Speaker 2: anybody else. And there was certainly, you know, as investigators 872 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,879 Speaker 2: were going back and going over his life and his 873 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 2: relationships with other people, you know, there were some real 874 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,880 Speaker 2: warning signs. I mean, I don't think anybody thought, oh, 875 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,839 Speaker 2: he's going to go murder people, but there were some 876 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 2: really troubling things in his interpersonal relationships that were quote 877 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 2: telling and frankly pretty scary to me. 878 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: Now, one thing I want to do before we conclude 879 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: this fantastic evening is I want to highlight what you're 880 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: doing on your podcast, so you didn't just do it 881 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: for a living. Now in retirement, you're still trying to 882 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: highlight and help and bring attention to unsolved cases. Can 883 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,760 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about a case y'all covered 884 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,680 Speaker 1: own the consult Jody Hughes in Trooped. Yes. 885 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 2: So most of the cases on our show that we 886 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 2: had done up to that point are cases that we 887 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 2: had actually worked on prior we'd done a profile of 888 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 2: that case. 889 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: Prior. 890 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 2: This was a little different. We had not none of 891 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 2: us had sat down and looked at this case before. 892 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,879 Speaker 2: But I was contacted by a journalist, Caroline Lowe, and 893 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,080 Speaker 2: she had been covering this case of Jody Hughes in 894 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 2: truth and for many many years, and she was she 895 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 2: just came to me and she's like, can you take 896 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,080 Speaker 2: a look at this? Can you know? And she's always 897 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 2: looking for ways to highlight and keep Jody's case in 898 00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:00,879 Speaker 2: the spotlight. And I was reluctant because we've already talked 899 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 2: about you need crime scene photos, you need autopsy photos, 900 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,840 Speaker 2: and you know, and I had not, you know, actually 901 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 2: seen any of that. But with the amount of information 902 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,319 Speaker 2: that was out there in this particular case, I felt 903 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 2: like there was enough there that we might actually be 904 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 2: able to cover it. And so the story behind it 905 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 2: was that on June twenty seventh, nineteen ninety five, Jody, 906 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,840 Speaker 2: who was a kind of a local celebrity. She was 907 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 2: the news anchor in Mason City, Iowa. She had a 908 00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 2: coverage of about three hundred viewers, and she was an 909 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,160 Speaker 2: extremely popular news anchor and one morning she was running 910 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,759 Speaker 2: late for work and she she did the morning and 911 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 2: she had to be at the station pretty early, but 912 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,399 Speaker 2: she was running late, and one of her colleagues had 913 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 2: called her and Jody you know, said, oh, I'll be 914 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,840 Speaker 2: right there. You know, she had overslept, so Jody grabbed 915 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,759 Speaker 2: her things and as she was running out the door 916 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,839 Speaker 2: of her apartment building, she was abducted. And she never 917 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 2: showed up for her for her, she never showed up 918 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 2: at work. And you know, about seven o'clock, I think 919 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 2: they did a wellness check and went over to her 920 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,839 Speaker 2: apartment and found that she had some belongings that had 921 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,920 Speaker 2: been strewn about. So it appeared she had grabbed like 922 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 2: her hair dryer in her and her makeup and stuff 923 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:26,920 Speaker 2: like that, and was going to get ready at the station, 924 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 2: which was like her normal process anyway, and some of 925 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,920 Speaker 2: her items were strewn about, and the key to her 926 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,240 Speaker 2: car was on the ground. It was bent so almost 927 00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,560 Speaker 2: like she was had put her key into the into 928 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 2: the door and then was grabbed at that point. And 929 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:51,280 Speaker 2: so you know, she's never been found, and her family 930 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,960 Speaker 2: had her declared deceased at some point several years after. 931 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 2: And so Caroline asked a to cover this case. And 932 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 2: I felt that we could because we actually did kind 933 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 2: of have crime scene photos because it was outdoors and 934 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,799 Speaker 2: there are a lot of news cameras out so I 935 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 2: think we were able to kind of assess the crime 936 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 2: scene that way. And of course, you know, her body 937 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,920 Speaker 2: has never been found unfortunately, so there were no you know, 938 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 2: no autopsy reports, and there's no secondary crime scene that 939 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,799 Speaker 2: has ever been found. So we were able to you know, 940 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 2: go through it, and we had Caroline and it was 941 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 2: like it was like a real consult. It's it's you know, 942 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,560 Speaker 2: it is as close as it gets to sitting in 943 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,480 Speaker 2: the room with the Bau where Caroline told us all 944 00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,719 Speaker 2: the facts of the case. We asked her questions. In 945 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 2: the next episode, we covered Jody's victimology extensively, and I 946 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,160 Speaker 2: have to thank her family for helping us with that 947 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,839 Speaker 2: because you know, there are you know, there's a lot 948 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 2: of things reported in the news about Jody, and she was, 949 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,080 Speaker 2: you know, like I said, very well liked and very genuine, 950 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,440 Speaker 2: and but there are other you know, questions I had 951 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 2: specifically for her family to help, you know, to help 952 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 2: us really understand who she was and and if she 953 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 2: was having a problem with somebody, which you tell people 954 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,040 Speaker 2: I mean, how did she handle stress? How do you know? 955 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,279 Speaker 2: All these things were really important, uh to us in 956 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 2: assessing her victimology. And then our third episodes, the three 957 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 2: part series. In our third episode was you know, our 958 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,239 Speaker 2: analysis of the type of offender. And one of the 959 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,959 Speaker 2: things that you know we don't do is we don't name, 960 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,560 Speaker 2: you know, we don't talk about suspects generally. In this case, 961 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,160 Speaker 2: we did talk about a suspect because he's been so 962 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,800 Speaker 2: high profile, but we really just tend to stay away 963 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 2: from that and really just focus on the behavior because 964 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:51,319 Speaker 2: we don't want any kind of confirmation bias. So you know, 965 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 2: so we just talked really about these are the characteristics, 966 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 2: and that as investigators that are out there, you know, 967 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 2: they have to look at their suspects and try to see, okay, 968 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 2: who fits this, and you can prioritize what we always 969 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,720 Speaker 2: call it, you prioritize somebody or you deprioritize somebody based 970 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,520 Speaker 2: on those characteristics. And of course we would never say, oh, 971 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 2: you rule that person out, and we would never say 972 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 2: that because because this is not an exact science, and 973 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 2: so that's what we do. We came up with some 974 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,960 Speaker 2: personality traits and characteristics of the type of person who 975 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,240 Speaker 2: would do something like this, and we you know, it's 976 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,800 Speaker 2: a conversation. We had to really work through different scenarios. 977 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 2: I mean, is this somebody who saw her on the 978 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,440 Speaker 2: news and they suffer from the you know, eroto mania 979 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 2: where they think they're in a relationship with somebody. Is 980 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,480 Speaker 2: this somebody who just impulsively saw running out of her 981 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,560 Speaker 2: apartment that day and grabbed her. Is this somebody else 982 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 2: who may have come across her on the news. They're 983 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,320 Speaker 2: not delusional, but they're like, I'm going to go grab 984 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:51,440 Speaker 2: her and I'm going to wait for her. Or is 985 00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,880 Speaker 2: this somebody that's close to her that maybe had some problem, 986 00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,560 Speaker 2: like an interpersonal problem with her. Is this a personal 987 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 2: cause homicide where somebody wanted to go get her and 988 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,840 Speaker 2: kill her because of some personal problem that they had. 989 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 2: So we work through all those scenarios and kind of 990 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,840 Speaker 2: come up with what we think the profile of the 991 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,400 Speaker 2: offender is. And it's really just an assessment. It's our observations. 992 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:21,600 Speaker 2: It's very it's very real, it's not sensational. I think 993 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,560 Speaker 2: sometimes people may get to the end of some of 994 00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 2: our shows and be kind of disappointed that we don't 995 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,440 Speaker 2: have this really strong opinion about something like this is 996 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,760 Speaker 2: who did it? And we never will because that would 997 00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,840 Speaker 2: be irresponsible. So so I do. I'm glad you asked 998 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 2: me about that case, because you know it is it 999 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,439 Speaker 2: is that is that one case. I felt a lot 1000 00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:50,960 Speaker 2: of sense of satisms. I don't know if the right 1001 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 2: word is sense of satisfaction, but it was very fulfilling 1002 00:58:54,760 --> 00:59:00,240 Speaker 2: and rewarding to be able to work on something like 1003 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 2: that and be part of, you know, be part of 1004 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 2: the effort to keep to keep it in the spotlight 1005 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 2: because these cases that are you know, twenty thirty forty 1006 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 2: years old, they get forgotten and you know, we move 1007 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 2: on to other things, we move on to these fast 1008 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,880 Speaker 2: breaking cases, and it's like that as an investigator, sometimes 1009 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 2: you're just doing a fresh murder comes in. You have 1010 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,920 Speaker 2: to be dealing with it right then and there, and 1011 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,240 Speaker 2: the other things get put to the side. So and 1012 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 2: I understand that. So it was just really rewarding to 1013 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 2: be able to highlight this case. And we'll be doing 1014 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,000 Speaker 2: more of that on our show hopefully. You know, there's 1015 00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 2: going to be some cases. You know, people bring us, 1016 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,320 Speaker 2: you know, lots of suggestions, and I'm sure you get 1017 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,360 Speaker 2: lots of suggestions, and I look at them like, we 1018 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,400 Speaker 2: just can't do a good job on that because we 1019 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 2: don't have access to certain information that we would need 1020 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,120 Speaker 2: to be accurate, and we could make a lot of guesses, 1021 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,760 Speaker 2: but it really wouldn't be honest to our process. 1022 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,919 Speaker 1: You know, I could literally sit and talk to you 1023 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,280 Speaker 1: all night long, and I just appreciate your willingness to 1024 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 1: come on and share so much with us and talk 1025 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,880 Speaker 1: so effortlessly about not just your process, but you know 1026 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: what you put into it, your heart and soul. And 1027 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,080 Speaker 1: then you know once your time was done with the FBI, 1028 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,320 Speaker 1: that you know you're still reaching out and trying to 1029 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: help people, which I think is what this whole gig 1030 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,440 Speaker 1: is about. I mean, we're in this thing to help people, 1031 01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: and like you said, justice, that's what we want. I 1032 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,200 Speaker 1: just admire you and I appreciate you, and you being 1033 01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,200 Speaker 1: here a part of Zone seven is just a treat 1034 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,720 Speaker 1: is all I can say. Honey, y'all. I'll going to 1035 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 1: end Zone seven the way that I always do with 1036 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:49,600 Speaker 1: a quote lesson learned. Everyone is a potential suspect, and 1037 01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:55,400 Speaker 1: don't let looks or behavior fool you. John Douglas. I'm 1038 01:00:55,480 --> 01:01:03,760 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven the Bandag