1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamp and I'm Julie Tuglass. Julie, 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: what would it take to be a martyr? Like, like, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: what what are the qualities that one needs? Um? You see, Uh, well, 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to be someone who's too and I 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: mean a real martyr, not I mean like like just 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: dripping off the page, um stained glass window kind of 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: a thing y gory pages of a history book. Okay, 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: all right, I'm not just talking like, oh, he's a 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: martyr because he refuses to use the new coffee machine, 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: right right. You're not gonna get off the cross. Someone 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: needs the wood. Yeah, it's not one of those martyrs. Okay. 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: First of all, you probably don't want to be too 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: concerned with materialism. I'm gonna say, you don't want to 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: be a big shopper, right right, yeah, yeah, I mean 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: you'd be willing to wear a potato sack, kind of 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: be a little bit smelly, uh, sit in one position 19 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: for a long time, sort of meditating on the world 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: in your purpose. Right, Um, what would make like if 21 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: this was a want ad what else will we stick 22 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: in there? M m, well, really, you have to be 23 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: extremely committed to an idea or belief something let's have 24 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: high ideals, yes, yes, so something that again is stronger 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: than oh, I have to play this new video game 26 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: when it comes out next month, and stronger even than 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: one's own natural affinity for life itself, okay. UM must 28 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: be able to withstand extreme pain in various forms impossible death. Yes, 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: And I think this is this is the the aspect 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: of it that interests me the most at this moment anyway, 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: and it is certainly what we're going to spend the 32 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: most time within this podcast because growing up I was 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by these these images of martyrs um, 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: especially in the Catholic tradition. With someone in the Western world, 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: you just kind of grow up seeing these things, you know, 36 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: be it in actual like church literature or studying like 37 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: just the history of Western civilization. Used to see all 38 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: these discry images. It probably pays to to just quickly 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: also just to define where we get the word martyr. 40 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: It comes from the Late Greek term mar tour, which 41 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: comes from martas witness. And uh, the ideas that you're 42 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: you're witnessing something, you're bearing testimony to some fact or 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: faith with your blood, with your blood. I think that's 44 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: the crux of it right there, because at the end 45 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: game of being a martyr is not necessarily to die, right. 46 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that is so 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: anybody can die. Everybody dies, well exactly, but to to 48 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: to actually try to do it so that you're you know, 49 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: immortalized and celebrated. I mean, it's just it's just sort 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: of a byproduct like oops, I might die, and so 51 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: I think. But this is one of the most intriguing 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: things about a martyr at least captures our attention, and 53 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: why it's so dramatic is that these are people who 54 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: are so committed to something that they are willing to 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: withstand such pain. It also turns the typical social and 56 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: just even evolutionary contract on its head, you know, because 57 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: it's it's suddenly like, here's the person that that when 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: the authority said, hey, you need to do this or 59 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: we'll kill you, he said, go ahead. I believe more 60 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: in the idea that that that I should have this freedom, 61 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: or that I should be able to say this that 62 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: or the other, or live this that or the other. 63 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: I believe in this more than I believe in, uh, 64 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: the importance of my own skin, oh yeah. Or that 65 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: Joan of Arcs, for instance, she had such a strong 66 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: vision from God that King Charles the seventh should be, 67 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, put on the throne, that she was willing 68 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: to um to to suffer death, and you know, of 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: course was burned at the stakes. So this is this 70 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: is pretty heavy stuff in that respect, um. And it 71 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: really is very interesting from a psychological perspective of pain, 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: because we know that psychological factors play a huge role 73 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: in the perception of pain. Right now, but before we 74 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: break down some of the the psycho the psychology in 75 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: the science of this, UM, let's run through a few examples. 76 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: And and it's important to note that that's so much 77 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: in martyrdom and in the history of martyrs, in in 78 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: any culture, in any religious tradition or secular tradition. We're 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: talking about something that has to do with the politics 80 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: of memory. I mean, these are these are ultimately they 81 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: may have been people at one point or another, but 82 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: they become stories, and stories are told by individuals with 83 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: a bias of some sorts. So a person may die 84 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: truly believing in something. They may die a martyr, and 85 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: but if no one's going to tell the story, then 86 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: they're not really a markin right. So in other words, 87 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a couple of martyr stists 88 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: as examples, but that doesn't mean that these people necessarily 89 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: actually perform certain tasks or maybe we're even um that suffered. 90 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there's I guess what we're trying to say 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: here is that there there could be some fictionalization of 92 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: things that are not that well documented in the past. 93 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: And we're not celebrating martyrism. We just think it's or martyrdom. 94 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: We just think it's fascinating. Yeah, I mean it is 95 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: pretty cool in a very morbid way to me too. 96 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: That's my personal opinion. But all right, you have like 97 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: Saint anti Pass of Peragammum roasted to death and a 98 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: bronze bull in n D. A bronze bowl, yeah, which 99 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: is like a big bronze bowl, and when you put 100 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: somebody in it, and then apparently as they're shrieking and 101 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: dying inside the bull um, it makes this echoed sound, 102 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: so that the bronze bull sounds like an actual bowl. 103 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: This makes sense because way back in the day. This 104 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: is big pageantry, right, Like you wanted you want to 105 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: go to acoustics on this well, and this is key 106 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: to pageantry. Most of your martyr deaths, especially the big 107 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: ones out of medieval tradition, they tend to be pretty 108 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: dramatic because there's a lot of drama caught up in 109 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: the whole martyrdom idea. Isaiah is pretty interesting. This was 110 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: an eighth century DC prophet in the Kingdom of Judea. 111 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: This is Old Testament stuff, but he was rebranded in 112 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages as this martyr that was solid in 113 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: half right down the middle with this big kind of 114 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: tooth saw. And what's really fascinating about this, dude is 115 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: if you look at some of these medieval texts the 116 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: way that he has depicted, they make a kind of 117 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: cruciform image with like the saw going across in his body, 118 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: up and down, so it ends up looking like a cross. 119 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: So he's he's rebranded as this Christian saint, which is 120 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: which is interesting and tells us a lot about the 121 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: idea of martyrdom. Again as politics, that marketing existed way 122 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: back then, but yeah, apparently right, and then uh oh, 123 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: and then another couple of examples from or another example 124 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: from the medieval tradition especially would be St. Bartholomew. This 125 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: guy is said to have been martyred in Armenia, and 126 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: according to accounts very on exactly what was done. In 127 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: one he was beheaded, uh, and then others he's crucified 128 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: upside down. But the most popular tradition holds that he 129 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: was flayed alive, that he was skinned. Yeah. So in 130 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: in various works of art, and in in one really 131 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: stunning statue that was made in fifty two, you see 132 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: him depicted as this skinless man like something out of 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: out of Hell raizor or that Robbie Williams video that 134 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: I said to the other day where he's stripping and 135 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: then he strips off his skin and he's dancing around. Also, 136 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm prepared for that Loneliness Sita submission there. What do 137 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: you think was gonna happen? Because he's already down to 138 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: his underwears, right, and then I guess it was just 139 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: like the beat and then a d J. I just 140 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: didn't think it was gonna be like, Okay, he's gonna 141 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: self flay himself. Yeah, so, so he he tends to 142 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: be depicted like that with a flame knife in one 143 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: hand and his own skin thrown over his shoulder. This 144 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: is barth all of me, not Robbie will um and so. 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: And he tends to have this look on his face, 146 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: especially in that statue. It's like a serene look like 147 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: it look like, hey, I'm this doesn't hurt. Yeah, So 148 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: I skinned myself, big deal, yeah, which which again comes 149 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: down to that whole like the idea of the martyr 150 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: is turning the typical rules of pain and suffering on 151 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: their head. Um. You see accounts among the various Native 152 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: American people's where there's a there's a certain amount of 153 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: torture that ends up but playing into some of these 154 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: tribal groups, uh, and it becomes part of this culture. 155 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: And so you so you have these, uh, the stories 156 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: of individuals who were captured, individuals from from rival groups 157 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: and when they were tortured, they didn't cry out or 158 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: they didn't say anything, and in doing so shamed their tormentors. 159 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: And we'll talk a little bit about that too, like 160 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: how we actually have some cases of this are are documented. 161 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: But let's just talk about a couple of modern martyr 162 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: examples of what some people think of as martyrs. Yes. 163 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: One in particular especially would be Um Tick Kwan Duke, 164 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who burned himself to death at 165 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: a busy on a busy Saigon intersection on June eleventh, nineteen. 166 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: Everyone has probably seen an image of this before because 167 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: one of the most iconic images of the twentieth century. 168 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: Malcolm Brown want to Pulitzer Prize for the photo. And 169 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: it's you know, this black and white, stark image of 170 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: this this figure seated in uh like a meditative position 171 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: and legs folded and just engulfed in flames, right And 172 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: and reports h E witnesses say that he never screamed. 173 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: There was some flinching, of course, but that's you know, 174 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: of course it's going to happen with your muscles, uh 175 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: in your skin reacting to that. But he practiced a 176 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: very severe ascetic lifestyle and he had of course of 177 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: extreme meditation. Practice was considered about about his vata because 178 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: I know what I'm saying that wrong, um, But at 179 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: the time of his death and that essentially that he 180 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: was enlightened. So um again here's an example of withstanding 181 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 1: extreme pain, right, And that one's more interesting than it 182 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: is a more contemporary example, because because again and often 183 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: you can imagine like somebody dying horribly for a cause, 184 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: and then the people who carry that cause, of course 185 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: they're going to say, oh, but he was he was 186 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,599 Speaker 1: he or she was bigger than the pain, because the 187 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: cause is that important. This is one of the themes 188 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: that's explored in Umberto Echoes the name of the Rose, 189 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: that I I've always found really interesting. There's a there's 190 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: a martyred heretic that is not a character in the book, 191 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: but is referred to a lot of this fraud Delcino, 192 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: who is into like a thirteenth century poverty heretic, believed 193 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: that that everyone should that the church would be poor, 194 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: that everyone should be poor and uh and should renounce 195 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: all material possessions. And so the young young character in 196 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: the book encounters one telling of the tale in which 197 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: he rises above the pain and is serene through all 198 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: these savage things that are done to him. And then 199 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: in another account that is supposedly the true account, we 200 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: learned that the individual died just stay really horrible death 201 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: and responded in the what typical way one might so. 202 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: But we have one, of of course, one one more 203 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: modern martyr to to mention, right, yeah, Mohamma Gandhi. Now 204 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: some people might say, well, I don't know that I 205 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: consider Mohamma Gandhi a true martyr, while other people say, actually, 206 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: this is a really good example of a martyr because 207 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: this is someone who campaigned for home rule in India 208 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: and helped to defeat colonialism and did that as in 209 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: a similar way that you had talked about, which was 210 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: kind of shaming the government and doing that through hunger strikes. Um. 211 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: He was in prison several times, UM, and he was 212 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: whittled down to the bone. I mean we're not talking 213 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: like he just denied himself a piece of cheesecake. I 214 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: mean this, this is this is another form of pain 215 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: to endure UM. And you'll actually see this is really interesting. 216 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: They've seen studies before that people who are interrexic actually 217 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: have um less susceptibility to pain because you do sort 218 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: of get in this this mindset where you're denying your 219 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: body um, and you're you're living in this kind of 220 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: extreme situation. But you know, it's interesting to look at 221 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: Mohamma Gandhi and although he um, he did die uh 222 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: and he was actually murdered by a fellow Hindu who 223 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: was disappointed that Gandhi could not stop the partitioning between 224 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: Pakistan and India. Essentially, we're talking about hear is Hindu's 225 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: versus Muslims. Right, he was martyred in a in a 226 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: certain way. I guess some people could perceive that because 227 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: his commitment to sort of think that in an ecumenical, 228 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: uh way of embracing all cultures and all religions. So 229 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: again another example, you know, he wasn't We're not talking 230 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: about skin flaying here, but these are you know, extreme 231 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: acts done by people. So we're gonna take a quick 232 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we're gonna really head 233 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: into the science of all this and to what some 234 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: of the various neuroscientists and psychologists have to say about 235 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: the way that we experience pain and how various martyrs 236 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: in the past may have overcome this suffering. This podcast 237 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Intel, the sponsors of Tomorrow 238 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, we believe curiosity is 239 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: the spark which drives innovation. Join us at curiosity dot 240 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: com and explore the answers to life's questions. All right, 241 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: we're back, and Julie, you have something to share about 242 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: the Shalon monks. Yeah, I want to talk kung fu 243 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: like we're talking real Shalon monks, not the film Shalong monks. 244 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: No now, and we're talking the really the ones that 245 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: inspire martial arts movies, really Shalon monks. Uh. It's actually 246 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: there are a sect of Mayahana Buddhism monks and they're 247 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: concerned with meditation and martial arts and just just a 248 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: couple of facts if they're out there to give you 249 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: some contexts about this. Kung Fu has been practiced in 250 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: China since two BC, and it was always thought of 251 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: as a practice of devotion. Okay, so that's really important here. 252 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: And the leading Shalon kuang Fu school was actually established 253 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: years ago, believe it or not. Um. But these guys 254 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: developed extraordinary physical skills through training over many, many years, 255 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: and the basis of this is pain control or pain 256 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: management UM. And that then they really acclimate themselves to 257 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: be able to withstand this kind of pain. And some 258 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: of it's through meditation, but a lot of it is 259 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: actually through the kung fu. I mean we're talking about 260 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: this is going to sound kind of silly, almost like 261 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: a Chinese water torture in some respects, but you know, 262 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: punching a huge vat of beams for hours and hours 263 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: because they know that that, you know, the hands are 264 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: so sensitive. The idea is to desensitize the nerves in 265 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: your hands. So it's about you feel enough pain that 266 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: it de sensitizes the nerves in the same in a 267 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: similar way that, say, of one abuses a substance, you 268 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: end up frying the pathways. Yeah, but it's still pretty 269 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: much like you know, mind over matter. Um. There's a 270 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty four book by Jing Jing Song entitled Training 271 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: Methods of the seventy two Arts of the Shallon, and 272 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: it documents a range of skills that can be acquired, 273 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: such as causing internal damage to an opponent using a 274 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: one fingered punching, being able to perform handstands on two fingers, 275 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: and being able to break solid objects with the heel 276 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: of the palm. But they also like just just for fun, 277 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: they'll just take like, you know, don't stack of like 278 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: five on their head, and some will like karate chop 279 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: them on their heads for fun. For fun. Is that 280 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if that sounds very Buddhist that they're 281 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: doing it. I say that for fun, because you know, 282 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: I was looking at some great video of them, and 283 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: essentially these are a bunch of ten year old kids, 284 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: and some of them start younger, and you know, at 285 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: the age of ten, they're they're getting up at four 286 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning and they're running up this hill 287 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: in twenty minutes, actually a mountain that takes about an 288 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: hour and a half for the average adult to scale. 289 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: And then they're walking down hands and knees. Okay, this 290 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like fun, but still, I mean this is 291 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: you know that age, you have tons of energy, right, yeah, 292 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: so walk up some mountains, breaks and breaks and there 293 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: there's so much more well behaved when they get back 294 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: to the exactly exactly. But it is fascinating to see 295 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: this because they also have a yoga tradition and there 296 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: so they're doing martial arts. They're doing these yoga moves 297 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: and they are so well disciplined, and I mean they're 298 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: doing these for hours and hours and these drills, uh, 299 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: these combat moves that they're essentially just imprinting in their 300 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: brains and their bodies so that it becomes second nature. 301 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: And one of the personal is two is che gong. 302 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard about this too. I believe it's 303 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: a type of martial arts, since the idea that fire 304 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: energy can actually emanate from your abdomen and you can 305 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: just kind of yeah yeah, and that you can actually 306 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: direct it to uh susceptible parts of your body or 307 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: sensitive parts of your body, like your neck. So you 308 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: could direct this energy to your neck and then someone 309 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: could punch the the holiness out of your neck and 310 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: you'd be completely fine. And they do this like these 311 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: are these are the the sort of tasks that they 312 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: do on for hours. It's pretty amazing. But I mean, 313 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: does it sort of makes sense because that they could 314 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: be able to do this because of that practice, the 315 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: repetitive nature and meditation. If you think about meditation, your 316 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: heart slows, you're pumping less blood, the muscles relax, and 317 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: when you relax the muscles, this is really key because 318 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: it means less tension, and less tension means less pain. 319 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: And I was just thinking about when we were doing 320 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: some research on lightning strikes, and I remember we came 321 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: across something about a guy who was in the thralls 322 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: of a tornado um and he was struck by a lamp. 323 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: So he was rendered unconscious, but his body was thrown 324 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: across the field and he was perfectly fine, and they 325 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: think that's because he wasn't able to tense his body 326 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: and react. This is this is kind of like how 327 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: you hear accounts of individuals and rex where if they 328 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: were intoxicated, individuals end up surviving a wreck because they're 329 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: not they're enough to tense up, right, right. So imagine 330 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: if you're this monk and you have gone through this 331 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: incredible training mind and body, then you could slow your 332 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: heart rate and you have like these mad skills where 333 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, you could defend yourselves or you defend yourself, 334 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: and then if you were to be struck, you could 335 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: negate that strike, could negate that pain. Yeah, dude, Well, 336 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: speaking of meditation, I ran across some stuff here by 337 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: American psychiatrist Robert Lifton, who did a lot of work 338 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: looking at like holicaust cost survivors and all Yale and 339 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: Harvard guy big medicine in the in the field, he 340 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: described the survivors of brainwashing and other psychological deprivation techniques 341 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: supplied by the child Andese government against captive missionaries, and 342 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: he attributed their mental survival to practicing meditation to recalling 343 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: and reciting poetry, uh, scripture, other literature. Essentially they end 344 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: up living living in this imaginal process to expand a 345 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: very limited, restricted physical environment, which cost to mind. We 346 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: we did a previous episode about isolation about how when 347 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: you're in an isolated environment, it begins to rather quickly 348 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: play tricks on the mind. The mind is starved with 349 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: stimuli and ends up having to to grasp onto other 350 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: things to get by, right, And that some of these 351 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: people had actually a cognitive deficiencies after having been isolated 352 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: for years. Yeah, and uh in anyway, um, Lifton found 353 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: that people who were able to in these uh, these 354 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: situations of isolation and uh, and this is you know 355 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: what isolation is a form of torment. We're able to 356 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: reach out and and just say cling to this bit 357 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: of scripture, cling to this prayer, cling to like create 358 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: some imagined reality to make up for what's lacking in 359 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: the physical environment. Um, which which I found pretty interesting. 360 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: Which is a distraction for your mind, right, which we 361 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: we always have talked about how the mind needs a 362 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: bone to chew on. Right. And then of course there's 363 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: self hypnosis as well, which is uh, which is an 364 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: area that is less um, I mean hypnosis itself and 365 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: exactly how it works is is less understood than than 366 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: other aspects of hay management for sure. But there there 367 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: have been studies into how IBS patients can use self hypnosis, 368 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: and this is of course the irritable balance syndrome. Uh. 369 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: They found they can reduce contractions in the bowl, something 370 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: that's not normally possible under conscious control, and their their 371 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: bow lining also becomes less sensitive to pain. And I actually, 372 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: when I was in college, I had a I had 373 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: an abnormal psychology professor. I mean he was he was well, 374 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: he was teaching abnormal. Well he was also a little 375 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: abnormal like guess, but but he mentioned that he was 376 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: really into the idea of self hypnosis. And he he 377 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: said that he had worked with a former student who 378 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: was having to go in and have this technique performed 379 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: where they take the little camera and they stick it 380 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: up the urethra into the bladder. Yeah, and they were 381 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: having to do it on a regular basis, and it 382 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: was extremely painful with for this guy, and they couldn't 383 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: just put him under each time. A bit much to 384 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: go for on such a regular basis to be knocked 385 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: out for this procedure. So he would freak out with 386 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: the pain and they would have to hold him down 387 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: and stuff, and it was just an ugly situation for 388 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: everybody concerned. Uh, So they taught him. He began learning 389 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: self hypnosis, and supposedly by the end of the training 390 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: he was able to calm himself enough that that he 391 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: only felt the tip of the camera poking through into 392 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: his bladder towards the end of the Well, you know, 393 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this too, even with the placebo effect, 394 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: We've talked about this, that this promise sometimes that um, 395 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: the pain will be alleviated will automatically, uh, make the 396 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: endorphins in your body kick in and opiates kick in. 397 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: So sometimes it really is mind over matter. Um. This 398 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: is from a Scientific American article Daring to Die. They 399 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: were talking actually talking about the psychology of suicide, but 400 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: this is certainly related. It says it is not enough 401 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: to want to die to intentionally end their own life, 402 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: people need the will to carry out their plans. This 403 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: resolve depends on factors such as fearlessness and being able 404 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: to tolerate pain and to act impulsively. The latest research 405 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: shows that such fearlessness can be conditioned. Those who gain 406 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: experience with pain, whether from abuse by others or by 407 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: their own hands, gradually improve their ability to tolerate discomfort. 408 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: They also get used to the idea of harming themselves, 409 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 1: which kind of plays into this question that we has 410 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: come up before. We've talked about this. Uh, you know, 411 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: is someone a masochist or a martyr? At what point? 412 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: You know? And um, another really interesting uh study came up. 413 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: It's a two thousand and nine study and Neticis Mashi 414 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: Siff of McGill University and his colleagues showed childhood abuse 415 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: appears to produce specific patterns of so called epigenetic marks 416 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: on the DNA of brain cells and people who later 417 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: killed themselves. So uh it kind of again there's this 418 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: relationship between pain and psychology and the body. Well, speaking 419 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: of masochism, which you mentioned. Uh there, I did run 420 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: across some stuff from Don Richard Rizzo, who wrote a 421 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: book called Personality Types using the Nagram for Self Discovery, 422 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: and uh he he wrote about the mesochistic personality disorders 423 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: is defined by the American Psychiatric Association and there are 424 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: very like various levels of it. But in in one 425 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: case we're talking about an unhealthy level of messochistic personality 426 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: disorder so that it can it can manifest as manipulative 427 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: and self serving, instilling guilt, putting others in debt uh 428 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: self to self, deceptive about one's own motives and behavior, 429 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: domineering and coercive feelings, entitled to anything uh they want 430 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: and others and then having this like victim and martyr, 431 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: tips of scales of power in a relationship, like I've 432 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: suffered so greatly that therefore you should feel sorry for me, 433 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: and yeah, and it give me a candy bar now, yeah, exactly. 434 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: And then there's the there's sort of the opposite, the 435 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: idea of people that are immune to pain. Oh, yes, okay, 436 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: So I am watching when the Steve Larson movies. I 437 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: this is the girl who kicked the hornets nest, the 438 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: girl who touched the cat on the belly, the girl 439 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: who a sandwich and its rapper, yes, and uh and 440 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna um spoil any pots here, but 441 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: that came up and I thought that was really fascinating. Huh. 442 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: My my dad was the dentist, and I remember him 443 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: talking about having having one patient to come. You know, 444 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: he would regularly you know, if somebody comes in for 445 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: a dental procedure, obviously you end up having to apply 446 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: a topical and esthetic or even injecting something. You know, 447 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: doing something to deal with the pain. Pain and management 448 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: comes with the territory of dentistry. But he had, like, 449 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: on one occasion in his um, you know, in decades 450 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: of experience, had one guy come in and they were 451 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: preparing to to do a fairly uh um painful procedure. 452 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: I forget exactly what it was, but it was. It 453 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: was not just a cleaning by any stretch of the imagination. 454 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: There was some actual digging around involved, right, And and 455 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: my my dad was like, all right, well, you know, 456 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: time to to numb me up. And because I was 457 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: like I'm good, and and my dad was like, I 458 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: don't think you are, because I really need to numb 459 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: me up for this, because this is what's about to happen. 460 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: And the guy's like, no, I never I never take 461 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: any kind of a medicine when I when I come 462 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: into the dentist. And so my dad was like, all right, 463 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, he's kind of begrudgingly agreed to to at 464 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: least start. And it ended up the guy didn't take 465 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: any pain medic medication for the entire procedure, and and 466 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: my dad would talk about it was like he said, 467 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: I just felt weird doing and I felt it felt 468 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: like you're you're tormenting somebody but they're not feeling any pain. 469 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: And um, And as it turns out, this was not 470 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 1: just this one dude. There are it's rare, but there 471 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: are individuals who who don't feel pain. Uh, there was. 472 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: I was reading a study from Dr Geoff woods Camp 473 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: from the Cambridge Institute for Medical Research, and they ended 474 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: up bringing together a number of children. Uh, well they 475 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: had been show some of them had grown up or 476 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: you know, or teenagers by the time the study came around, 477 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: but uh, growing up they reported to never have felt pain. 478 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: And they analyze them and they found there was nothing 479 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: wrong with their nervous system. And it wasn't wasn't a 480 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: situation where they had some sort of you know, you know, 481 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,239 Speaker 1: some sort of like leprosy type of condition. Um. They 482 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: had normal intelligence, they had normal nerves, and the nerves 483 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: seemed to conduct signals normally, and their brains seemed to 484 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: be put together normally. So it didn't make any sense 485 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: based on their current theories of pain but they were 486 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: able to isolate a gene called sc in nine A 487 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: uh that is very highly expressed in the pain sensing nerves. 488 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: And so there's been a number of research just and 489 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: we're continuing to try and understand exactly how this gene 490 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: play into it. But but they found that people who 491 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: who don't feel pain as well or at all, they 492 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: also may not be able to detect certain odors. And 493 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: they've also found that this is from another study the 494 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: Cambridge Institute for Medical Research. They found that people who 495 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: suffer from osteoarthritis, patients that reported higher levels of pain 496 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: were more likely to carry a particular DNA base at 497 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: certain locations in this same gene as seen in nine A. 498 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: So we we see the opposite there where it sort 499 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: of tweaked another direction and it creates a higher sensitivity 500 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: for pain. So you know, there's like there's to buil 501 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: it down to like the most basic it's like there's 502 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: a connection missing between that perception of pain not nerve. Right, 503 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: It's highly possible that some martyrs in the past may 504 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: have just been in a particular situation genetically to where 505 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: they did not feel pain as strongly or at all, 506 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: which would certainly help you if you were, say to 507 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: be uh, you know, boiled alive, that's just cheating. Well, 508 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: I guess it is. But then believing in something strong 509 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: enough to escape from your torments, that's kind of cheating too. 510 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: That's the whole thing. Martyrs are cheating the system, sticking 511 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: it to the man. These days, though instead of like 512 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: being uh, well, I guess you. You You can still obviously 513 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: be a martyr in many different ways, but maybe you 514 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: would just do like a sideshow act with like the 515 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: gym rose. Yes, but but then you're not You're you know, 516 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: it's like you said to be a martyr at the 517 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: top of the podcast. To be a martyr, you can't 518 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: be that concerned with material possessions. But if you're cashing 519 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: in on your your your inability to to feel pain, 520 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: then you just clearly weren't set out for martyrdom. Even 521 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 1: if you have some very cool key skills there to implement, 522 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: it's not your bag. Yeah, you mentioned endorphins earlier. Endorphins 523 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: are of course, it's natural pain killer. They're that's released 524 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: in the brain, and there have been studies that shown 525 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: that practices such as prayer and meditation actually can help 526 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: for the release these endorphins and in theory the pain threshold. Yeah, 527 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: and this was interesting. This is from the lab researchers 528 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and u c l 529 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: A has shown that rats don't fall into painful stimuli 530 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: in the presence of a predator or when the rats 531 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: are in an environment that provokes fear because say they 532 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: have previously experienced a painful stimulus in it and the 533 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: experience released opiots again natural pain killers from their cells. 534 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: So it's almost like it was hard coded once they 535 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: had the experience. And you know, if it's a sense 536 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: of danger, could actually squelch pain in rats. But you know, 537 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: certainly you can take that information and apply to humans 538 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: and um, you know, possibly the same sort of conditions 539 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: could be met. And also there's something to be be said, 540 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: um about this. When you feel the endorphins released by pain, 541 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: you can sort of feel like a rush, Say if 542 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: you're getting a tattoo or something. Um, there's a certain 543 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: like high you end up getting just from the discomfort 544 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: of the procedure that I can't help but think on 545 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: some level might play into into some of this transcendence 546 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: of pain. You know, I'm granted of getting a tattooed 547 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: rather differ from being boiled alive or roasted in a 548 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: brazen bull. But it is all psychological, right because um 549 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: and I've read something about that too. That again, it's 550 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: sort of that that high, that reward that it depends 551 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: on if you're you know, you know what it is 552 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: you're holding out for or enduring. Maybe it is to 553 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: be you know, immortalized. Um And again, the endorphins are 554 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: hitting and it feels like, okay, well, yes I'm or 555 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: you're an athlete. This is a good example. You're running 556 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: through the pain because you're motivated to do what you're 557 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: motivated to win. Yeah, field burn and uh, and you're 558 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: also getting a bit of a high. So yeah, it 559 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: sort of depends on on what's on the other side. 560 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: I suppose. I've also heard some athletes, um and we 561 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, sort of hobby athletes who have discussed the 562 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: how when they are pushing themselves really hard, they also 563 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: feel like they're kind of punishing themselves. So I can 564 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: see that also kind of playing into so it's sort 565 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: of like a transcendence in a weird way of their physicality. 566 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: But maybe some sort of I don't know a psychological 567 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: spiritual level. Yeah, it brings to mind this. Uh this 568 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: quick quote from Roomi, the thirteenth century Persian Muslim poet. 569 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: He said, pain is an alchemy that renovates. Where is 570 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: indifference when pain intercedes? Beware, do not sigh coldly and 571 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: your indifference. Seek pain, Seek pain, pain pain. I love 572 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 1: that because I always think of Roumi as being this 573 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: incredibly romantic poet. Most of what you hear from Roomy 574 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: is very romantic, certainly not pain pain pain. Yeah, but 575 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: it is interesting. I mean, we are so hotly motivated 576 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: by pain, and it certainly helps us learn, right, I 577 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: mean that we so much of our experiences of becoming 578 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: a human are all about avoiding pain, and uh in 579 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 1: our actions are certainly derived from that motivation. Yeah. Indeed. So, 580 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: now that we've wrapped up martyrs and pain, let's let's 581 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: see what sort of non painful stuff has come through 582 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: the main from the non painful listener mail, pop I did, 583 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: now we have a painful one. We do have a 584 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: painful folder. Yeah, it's luckily it's not very big, but 585 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: but we have a few pain full emails in there now. 586 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: But this is from the good pile. We heard from Gabriel. 587 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: Gabriel writes in and says dynamic duo Robert and Julie. Hey, 588 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: that's that's That's says greetings from Iraq. I am writing 589 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: you today from the Center of Civilization a k. The 590 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: Fertile Crescent, Iraq. I am a combat engineer in the U. S. Army. 591 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: On my second combat tour. I have had the opportunity 592 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: to have wireless Internet and have been able to download 593 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: many of your podcasts, and I listen to each evening 594 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: during the day. While on patrol in m WRAP that's 595 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: Mine Resistant armored patrol vehicle, I replay the podcast I 596 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: listened to the night before over the headset. It is 597 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: great for breaking up the monotony of looking for I e. 598 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: D s and talking about the usual army related stories. 599 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: My soldiers have learned about many interesting things, including waspond's 600 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: brain wiping and micro drones. They especially like the episode 601 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: on nightmares killing people. After spending almost an entire year 602 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: in the southern southern part of Iraq near the Iranian border, 603 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: I've often wondered what made this region of the world 604 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: such a good spot for the beginning of civilization. I 605 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: read recently that this part of Iraq, the Fertile Crescent, 606 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: has changed significantly since the days of Mesopotamia, and that 607 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: its present environmental condition did not support the civilizations that 608 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: existed long ago. Have you ever considered a podcast discussing 609 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: this fact? In summary, on behalf of myself and my soldiers, 610 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: I just wanted to extend our thanks to the both 611 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: of you. Sitting in a convoy of vehicles with the 612 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: with the same guys for almost twelve hours a day's 613 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: kind of like taking a year long road trip, but 614 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: on the same roads, almost like a Twilight Zone episode 615 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: in your own way. You were both doing great things 616 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: for your country. Oh man, that was really nice. That's wow. 617 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: And what a description too. I had never thought about that. 618 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: It's like this this uh sort of like road trip analogy. 619 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah indeed. Yeah. Um, and I think that the Fertile 620 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: Crescent is fascinating. That that's definitely one that we're gonna 621 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: need to to cover because I'm and we can talk 622 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: about that from so many different perspectives archaeological, cultural, and 623 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: so on. Um. So thanks, yeah, and and by all 624 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: means thank you for your service to our country. All 625 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: you guys. If you happen to be listening right now, 626 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: so if if anyone would like to share anything with us, 627 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: there are many ways to get in touch with us. 628 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: Uh We're on Facebook and we're on Twitter. We're blow 629 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: the Mind on both of those and you can also 630 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: drop us an email at blow the Mind at House 631 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: to works dot com. Be sure to check out our 632 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join House to 633 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: Work staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing 634 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: possibilities of tomorrow.