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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through

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Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and

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Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. I am

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Speaker 1: so excited to have you here back for another episode.

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Speaker 1: Being an ambitious person is so obviously deeply applauded by

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Speaker 1: our society. We love, we are obsessed with. We want

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Speaker 1: to see success stories of people who have started businesses,

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Speaker 1: who are self made, who are entrepreneurs, authors, leaders, creators, founders,

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Speaker 1: especially when they're young. But on the other side of

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Speaker 1: ambition is this very real burnout and this very real

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Speaker 1: struggle with how much is enough? How will I know

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Speaker 1: when I'm happy? How can I balance working hard and

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Speaker 1: having a life, especially in our twenties, when we don't

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Speaker 1: want to miss out on experiences, but we also don't

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Speaker 1: want to miss out on our future or the opportunities

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Speaker 1: that are presented to us today. I invited somebody on

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Speaker 1: the podcast who knows more about this balancing act than

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Speaker 1: most people this conversation. It honestly meant a lot to me,

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Speaker 1: it's really a real it's a deep depiction of things

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Speaker 1: that I'm currently working through. As you will probably hear,

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Speaker 1: I am very excited by this episode. We talk about perfectionism, ambition, failure, rejection,

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Speaker 1: joy and how to go after what you want deeply

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Speaker 1: and passionately whilst also still allowing yourself to have a

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Speaker 1: life without further ado. I want to introduce our lovely, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: wonderful guests to the show. Amana. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. Gemma, I am

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Speaker 2: so excited.

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Speaker 1: Can you introduce like I could introduce you if you

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Speaker 1: wanted me to, but I feel like you could say

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Speaker 1: it better tell the listeners what you're about, who you

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Speaker 1: are about this book that you've written as well.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much so. I'm Anna Altai. I'm an

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Speaker 2: executive coach and author and speaker, and I work with

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Speaker 2: people in moments of great change around their careers and everybody,

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Speaker 2: from folks that are in their twenties to people that

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Speaker 2: are in their sixties, and the commonality is it's people

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Speaker 2: that really want to finally do work that is true

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Speaker 2: to them and their soul and their calling. Because so

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Speaker 2: many of us are just indoctrinated to work in the

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Speaker 2: shoulds and do what we think our parents wanted and

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Speaker 2: take the linear career path that was laid out for us.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, this work I think of as

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Speaker 2: a homecoming and a way to do it in a

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Speaker 2: way that is really true to who we are. And

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Speaker 2: I just wrote a book. I spent two and a

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Speaker 2: half years writing this book called The Ambition Track app

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to write a book about ambition because

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Speaker 2: I'm a highly ambitious person and so are my clients.

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Speaker 2: And it was just really expensive for me. What I

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Speaker 2: noticed was that I had all these desires to grow,

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Speaker 2: but it cost me a lot. It actually cost me

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Speaker 2: my health. And I tell this story in the book

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Speaker 2: where I was twenty eight years old. I was six

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Speaker 2: years into my career and I had been working so

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Speaker 2: hard the eighty hour weeks and just the first one

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Speaker 2: in the last one out and I ended up burning

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Speaker 2: out and developing two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in

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Speaker 2: this really dramatic fashion where I got a call from

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Speaker 2: my doctor on a Friday as I was going to work,

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Speaker 2: and she said, if you don't go to the hospital

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Speaker 2: now instead of going to work, you'll be days away

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Speaker 2: from multiple organ failure. And it's like what twenty eight

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Speaker 2: year old gets that phone call? Right, So, like, very

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Speaker 2: early in my career, I realized my relationship to success

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Speaker 2: and growth was kind of killing me, and so I

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Speaker 2: had to learn another way very quickly, and so I

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Speaker 2: went on my eat, pray, lovey is what I call it,

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Speaker 2: and I studied all these things from coaching to mindfulness

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Speaker 2: to semantics, and then eventually just felt so much better

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Speaker 2: using these these tools of my own life that I

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Speaker 2: decided that I wanted to put it all together and

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Speaker 2: teach others. And so I'm a coach and I take

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Speaker 2: what I call a mind, body, and career approach to coaching,

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Speaker 2: so that we're really looking at all the different pieces

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Speaker 2: and parts of us. And so in the book The

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Speaker 2: Ambition Trap, I'm exploring all of that how we can

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Speaker 2: have a healthy, more harmonious relationship with ambition and growth

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Speaker 2: without it hurting us or others.

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Speaker 1: And that's just absolutely wild for you to say that

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Speaker 1: you are twenty eight years old experiencing well about to

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Speaker 1: experience multiple organ failure, and that's a shocking story. But

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Speaker 1: that kind of general theme of people in their twenties,

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Speaker 1: especially in this generation, pushing themselves so hot to the

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Speaker 1: point of sickness and illness and disease is not as

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Speaker 1: uncommon as we might think. Let's roll it back, though,

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Speaker 1: because let's start with what exactly is the ambition trap?

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Speaker 1: Because we're going to get further into these symptoms in

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Speaker 1: these science a little bit later on. But how do

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Speaker 1: we see the ambition trap? Firstly, what isn't How do

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Speaker 1: we see it really showing up in our twenties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the ambition trap refers to the double bind

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Speaker 2: that we experience around ambition. If you're a woman, a

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Speaker 2: person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability,

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Speaker 2: we experience something known as an ambition penalty, which means

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Speaker 2: that we're penalized for being ambitious. It's seen as taboo

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Speaker 2: for us, and so we want to take up space,

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Speaker 2: we want to throw our hats in the ring for things,

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Speaker 2: and often we're told to be and not to be

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Speaker 2: at the very same time, and it causes a lot

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Speaker 2: of tension. And so there's kind of two pieces to

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Speaker 2: the ambition trap. There's the systemic piece, right, kind of

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Speaker 2: operating in a system that says, hey, we don't really

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Speaker 2: want you to shine and take up space. And then

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Speaker 2: we internalize a lot of those messages and kind of

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Speaker 2: weaponize them against ourselves. So our own mindset is then saying, well,

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Speaker 2: who are you to take up space? And who are

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Speaker 2: you to do the thing? And so it's this tension

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Speaker 2: that we feel around growth, Right, I want to grow,

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Speaker 2: I want to take up space. I know I have

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Speaker 2: something to contribute, but when I do, I take a

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Speaker 2: hit for it. So how do I find my right

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Speaker 2: relationship with it?

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Speaker 1: And honestly, this is something that I am trying to

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Speaker 1: manage as well, where I feel like I was always

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Speaker 1: incredibly ambitious growing up and I always wanted to do things.

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Speaker 1: And then I also was kind of shamed for that

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Speaker 1: a little bit and like told that I was too much.

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Speaker 1: And then I also like experience the sense of like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well if you think I'm too much, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to push myself even further. And then I was the

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Speaker 1: one who kind of paid the cost. So it is

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Speaker 1: like a little bit of a tightrope, tightrope to yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of walk along. I think probably what's also contributing

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Speaker 1: to this is our ideas of success is as a

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Speaker 1: society and what we think of ambition. It's this weird

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Speaker 1: thing where sometimes you're told it's good to be ambitious,

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Speaker 1: and then other times you're told no, you need to

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Speaker 1: slow down. And it's like, well, what do you want

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Speaker 1: from me right now? Because the life of someone who

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Speaker 1: is incredibly successful and who is busy all the time

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Speaker 1: and everything is urgent for them, that seems to be

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Speaker 1: the life that is most glamorized and most like promoted,

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Speaker 1: But it's probably not the one that's going to make

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Speaker 1: us always the happiest. Can you explain how this perception

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Speaker 1: is perhaps unhealthy or contributing to some of the things

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Speaker 1: that you've seen in your own work.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I want to caveat this by saying, my

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Speaker 2: book is not asking anybody to be less ambitious, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of the most ambitious people I know. I

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Speaker 2: bet you are too. The invitation is to find that

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Speaker 2: harmonious relationship with it. But we live in a world

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Speaker 2: that tells us that success is more for more's sake

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Speaker 2: all the time, Right, That's what ambition is. More money,

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Speaker 2: more power, Always be getting the next title, always be

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Speaker 2: getting the next promotion, always be stretching yourself. Right. But

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Speaker 2: I think that that way of being is so dysfunctional.

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Speaker 2: I think it's partly what led to my developing too

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Speaker 2: autoimmune diseases. And there's so many examples of how problematic

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Speaker 2: that approaches out in the world, right from celebrities to

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Speaker 2: our friends. Probably because we're not supposed to be stretching

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Speaker 2: and growing all the time, that more for more's sake

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Speaker 2: actually costs us our health, our relationships, and even upholds

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Speaker 2: oppressive systems. I think ambition goes in cycles. I think

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Speaker 2: it's just like the seasons. It's like a perennial flower. Right,

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Speaker 2: So it's like you have this seedling of desire you

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Speaker 2: want to grow, right, I want to have this lovely podcast,

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Speaker 2: I want to have this amazing career where I'm sharing

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Speaker 2: beautiful things. So you water the inner and outer environment,

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Speaker 2: and then it grows and you have this beautiful momentary

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Speaker 2: peak in the sun. Right, the petals come out, it's gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: And then the seasons change and the petals fall off,

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Speaker 2: and we wind down and we go back underground, and

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Speaker 2: maybe that ground is fallow and not doing anything until

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Speaker 2: the environment is nurtured enough that we can grow again.

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Speaker 2: And I think that this is such a countercultural way

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Speaker 2: to think. Right, I'll give you a perfect example. So

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Speaker 2: I launched my book on May thirteen, and I had

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Speaker 2: a really nice, big pop for launch where I was

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Speaker 2: doing all these events. It was like that peak in

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Speaker 2: the sun, right. The petals were out worked on this

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Speaker 2: book for almost three years. It's like such a peak moment.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, it's summer here in the US,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm winding down. I'm going back underground because

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Speaker 2: things slow down. Nobody's booking events for the summer. There's

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Speaker 2: like a few podcasts here and there, but it's not

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Speaker 2: super busy. But people have been like.

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Speaker 1: Are you okay.

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Speaker 2: We notice you're not as productive, we notice that you're

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Speaker 2: like taking more time off, and I'm like, I'm great.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of the system that is always asking us

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Speaker 2: to be in perpetual motion that I think is the problem. Right.

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Speaker 2: So I think that we really need to flip this

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Speaker 2: idea of more for more's sake on its head and

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Speaker 2: really live more into the cycles of ambition. And I

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Speaker 2: think so many of us are afraid to do that.

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Speaker 2: We're afraid that if we don't, if we take our

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Speaker 2: foot off the gas, that we're going to lose something

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Speaker 2: like an opportunity or what have you. Right, that's scarcity mindset.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes in the RESTful moment like this is science,

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Speaker 2: this is not me like being woo. RESTful moments right

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Speaker 2: when our brain has had a moment to relax, to

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Speaker 2: be more parasympathetic, we actually can see more creative options.

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Speaker 2: We can see more opportunities, and so it actually serves

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Speaker 2: us to allow our ambition to go in cycles.

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Speaker 1: This is I can confirm absolutely, most certainly true anytime

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Speaker 1: we have a scarcity mindset about anything. And people may

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Speaker 1: not know a scarcity mindset is actually an economics term

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Speaker 1: and it's now been adopted by psychology and you would

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Speaker 1: know this. A scarcity mindset is basically it's what companies

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Speaker 1: try and create so that we value something more because

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Speaker 1: they understand that the less supply of something there is,

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Speaker 1: the more we're going to demand it. And if they

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Speaker 1: can make an item scarce, we immediately think of it

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Speaker 1: as valuable. So if you think that opportunities are scarce,

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Speaker 1: if you think that time is scarce, if you think

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Speaker 1: that your period for success is limited, you're going to

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Speaker 1: hold on as tightly and push yourself further and harder

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Speaker 1: and faster than ever imaginable because of that again scarcity mindset. However,

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Speaker 1: I think it's so rewarding to see stories of people

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Speaker 1: who became successful at a later age, or stories of

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Speaker 1: people like yourself, Amana, who I like, actually know this.

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Speaker 1: I have this incredible career because I have prioritized rest,

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Speaker 1: because I have taken time away, and when we do that,

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Speaker 1: we can actually go deeper into projects. I'm finding this

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Speaker 1: with myself right now, where I just said no to

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Speaker 1: something really really big in my career. Wow, that I

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Speaker 1: really want to reade you. Thanks, that's actually so nice,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I really wanted to do this thing. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is It felt like it was a

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Speaker 1: soul calling. It felt like really important, and I was

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Speaker 1: really excited by it. And then I just was like,

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Speaker 1: I actually just don't. I can't do this. I can't

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Speaker 1: equally say to people all the time, I'm so busy,

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Speaker 1: i'm so stressed, I'm so tired, and then continue to

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Speaker 1: add things onto my plate that will give me even

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Speaker 1: less time to take of myself. And it was a

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Speaker 1: hard call. But from your perspective, why do you think

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Speaker 1: it's so important to sometimes make those calls?

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Speaker 2: I think you made the most beautiful call.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So in the book I talk about purposeful work, and

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Speaker 2: I think purposeful work requires five things. It has to

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Speaker 2: leverage our zone of genius. It has to be values

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Speaker 2: aligned with us. It has to support the impact that

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Speaker 2: we want to have. It has to help us cultivate

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Speaker 2: a sense of contentment. And then it has to meet

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Speaker 2: our needs. And what I heard in this opportunity is

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Speaker 2: that it wouldn't meet your needs. Write your need for

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of time off right. So it's like

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Speaker 2: that to me, is a shiny object. It's something that

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Speaker 2: looks like the dream. It's adjacent to the dream, but

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Speaker 2: it's not the dream because the dream would allow you

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Speaker 2: to have your needs met, which means you passed the test, right,

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Speaker 2: The actual thing is coming through you honored yourself, which is.

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Speaker 1: The Oh my gosh. I always feel like this is

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Speaker 1: completely a sidebot. But I always feel like I end

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Speaker 1: up interviewing people exactly when I need to hear exactly

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Speaker 1: what they're saying to me. And it's like a selfish

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Speaker 1: thing because I'm sitting it being like, oh, sorry, listeners,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna just ask this expert all the questions I

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Speaker 1: have about my own.

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Speaker 2: Decisions, like, but somebody else needs to hear this because

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Speaker 2: it is so typical, Right, it's so typical. It's a

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Speaker 2: shiny object, and then not feel like we have enough

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Speaker 2: self trust or self worth to hold out for the

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Speaker 2: thing that we really want. So I actually think it's

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Speaker 2: so beautiful that you're sharing this example because you're gonna

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Speaker 2: invite others to double down on their self worth and

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Speaker 2: hold out for the thing that's truly aligned for them.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I hope you guys feel the same way.

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Speaker 1: This is a question more for the people in their twenties,

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Speaker 1: which is mostly everyone who listens to this podcast. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think it is hustle culture in particular and

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Speaker 1: not saying no is so seductive, particularly in this decade?

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Speaker 1: And why do you think that it's important to consciously

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Speaker 1: learn a different way during this time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's two things. I think it goes

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Speaker 2: back to what we're talking about with scarcity, right, the

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Speaker 2: idea that we're going to miss an opportunity that's gonna

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Speaker 2: set us up for our careers. I have been on

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Speaker 2: my book tour and I was in a room someone

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Speaker 2: and they asked me a question, and they were in

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Speaker 2: their twenties as well, and they were just like, you know,

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Speaker 2: what I've been told is that your twenties is the

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Speaker 2: time to take the risks. Right. It's when you work

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Speaker 2: the hardest, you have the least responsibilities potentially outside of work, like,

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Speaker 2: this is the time to maximize. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: to me, that's scarcity mindset, and that's systemically reinforced, right.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff that gets mirrored back, particularly

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Speaker 2: for women and other historically excluded people. It's like, well,

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Speaker 2: your value is only in your twenties or your value like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah when you're young and beautiful and like fresh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I have clients in their fifties and sixties that it

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Speaker 2: really are facing agism, right. So that's a real thing

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Speaker 2: you have to acknowledge. But I think a tremendous amount

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Speaker 2: of pressure gets put on us to achieve the thing

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Speaker 2: in our twenties because if we don't do it, then

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Speaker 2: we're never going to do it. And I just think

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Speaker 2: that that's bs. Like I'm somebody that I was reflecting

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Speaker 2: on this today. I've built my career so sequentially, step

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Speaker 2: by step, choice by choice, right, And I've had a

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Speaker 2: lovely career and I feel really aligned, and I feel

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Speaker 2: really squarely in my purpose, and so I think it

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Speaker 2: is that scarcity mindset of like this is the only

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Speaker 2: decade that we can make something happen. And I think

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Speaker 2: that all of these lists, right, like the thirty under thirty,

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Speaker 2: the forty under forty, right, that really glorify and glamorize

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Speaker 2: achieving something in the shortest amount of time, Which leads

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Speaker 2: me to my second point of urgency culture. Right, we

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Speaker 2: live in a culture that thinks that everything is urgent

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Speaker 2: and we have no time to do a thing, and

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Speaker 2: we have to do it now. But again that hurts

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Speaker 2: our bodies, hurts our relationships, and uphold oppressive systems. I

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Speaker 2: think that we need to be moving. We need to

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Speaker 2: honor deadlines and dependencies and everything right, but we need

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Speaker 2: to move at the speed of trust. We need to

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Speaker 2: honor the people and processes it takes to deliver great work.

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Speaker 2: So it's scarcity and its urgency.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that again to relate this to

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Speaker 1: my own experiences is what I'm really experiencing right now.

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Speaker 1: I have a pocost called the psychology if you have twenties,

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Speaker 1: the amount of people who always ask me, are you

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Speaker 1: going to do the psycho give your thirties? What are

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Speaker 1: you going to do when you turn thirty? Like what's

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Speaker 1: what's the future for you? And I'm like I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And it is a real sense where it's like, if

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Speaker 1: you accomplish everything that you want in your twenties, what

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Speaker 1: else is there for you? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like you've got all the hopefully all these decades that

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Speaker 1: are coming up that you want to continue to thrive

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Speaker 1: and you want to continue to do things. There's such

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Speaker 1: a pressure to like do everything in your twenties and

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Speaker 1: to have it all together. But it's also like what

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Speaker 1: if you kind of peak too soon? What if there

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Speaker 1: is you know, what if there is an identity crisis

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Speaker 1: waiting for you at the other end. Basically, I feel

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Speaker 1: like that's something that's coming for me right where it's like, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: I found the dream job and I have the dream

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Speaker 1: job super early. It's not all that that it's like

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Speaker 1: cracked out to be. I think like, even if you

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Speaker 1: have what you think you desire, like there's always going

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Speaker 1: to be a sense of more and you're never going

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Speaker 1: to be happy with it. So I guess what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to say is that in our twenties we have

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Speaker 1: this whole sense that we need to have it altogether

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Speaker 1: and that we need to have it figured out. And

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Speaker 1: even if you do, and even if everything goes well,

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Speaker 1: if you constantly still have the ambition trapped mindset, you're

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Speaker 1: never going to feel satisfied. You're never going to feel okay.

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Speaker 1: Is something that is That's something that you've seen as well,

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Speaker 1: like and ambitious people, no matter what they have, still

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Speaker 1: desire for more and are never like happy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the book, I define ambition as a

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Speaker 2: desire for more life, a wish to grow, a wish

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Speaker 2: to unfold. Right, Yeah, And I say that it's neutral

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Speaker 2: and natural, right because we do live in that world

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Speaker 2: and makes it right for some people and wrong for others.

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Speaker 2: And ambitious people have that desire for more life and

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Speaker 2: a desire to growth, but I a desire for growth.

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Speaker 2: But I think that's actually in every living thing on

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Speaker 2: the planet. I don't think that there are ambitious people

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Speaker 2: and non ambitious people. I think we're all actually ambitious.

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Speaker 2: Some of us have just rejected that label because of

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Speaker 2: the way that it's been poor trayed, But every living

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Speaker 2: thing on the planet has a desire for more life

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Speaker 2: right from our plant baby to our human babies. But

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Speaker 2: I think what you're alluding to is more of the trap, right,

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Speaker 2: because I think ambition is neutral and natural, it's for

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Speaker 2: all of us. There's nothing wrong with it. It's a

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Speaker 2: beautiful thing. But this desire to grow, no matter the cost,

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Speaker 2: to win, no matter the cost to hurt ourselves in

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Speaker 2: the process, to step over people in the process, that's

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Speaker 2: the thing we don't want to do right, And sometimes

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Speaker 2: there is a tendency. So in the book, I talk

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Speaker 2: about two types of ambition. There's painful ambition, which is

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Speaker 2: what I just described, right, the winning, no matter the cost,

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Speaker 2: the hurting ourselves to get there, moving at this unsustainable pace.

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Speaker 2: And then there's purposeful ambition. Purposeful ambition is when our

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Speaker 2: ambition is connected to our truth and it's coming from

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Speaker 2: a place of wholeness. So that's my invitation in this work, right,

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Speaker 2: is to leave the old paradigm of the painful piece

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Speaker 2: that's harmful to us and others, and step into that

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Speaker 2: more truthful version. And in painful ambition, we're always moving

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Speaker 2: the goalpost. Nothing is ever enough for us. We achieve

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Speaker 2: one mountain, we're like, where is the next one. Right,

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Speaker 2: we don't stop long enough to enjoy the view. And

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Speaker 2: in purposeful ambition, we know that life is a spiral staircase.

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Speaker 2: We're always just, you know, moving up the staircase, moving

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Speaker 2: up the staircase, growing and becoming and becoming more of ourselves,

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Speaker 2: which is a really beautiful thing. And in purposeful ambition

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Speaker 2: we are more concerned with contentment. So contentment from Eastern

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Speaker 2: traditions translates into English as unconditional wholeness or the knowledge

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Speaker 2: of enough. It's this idea that regardless of what's happening

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Speaker 2: around us, we have this internal stability that tells us

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Speaker 2: I'm enough. Right, I have this knowledge of enough, And

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Speaker 2: that is such a crucial piece right, because it doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that I don't want to continue to grow, but

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Speaker 2: it means that while I grow, I have this unconditional

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Speaker 2: wholeness on the inside, and I know that everything that

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Speaker 2: I've already done is enough, and who I am is enough.

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Speaker 2: Did that answer your question?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I absolutely did. And I want to

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Speaker 1: go further into this purposeful ambition concept. Is there? Do

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Speaker 1: you have some kind of checklist, a series of questions?

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Speaker 1: How can we tell when something is purposeful? Ambition versus

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Speaker 1: painful ambition. What are the key signs or distinctions.

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Speaker 2: So they each have a couple of signatures. So painful

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Speaker 2: ambition looks like moving at an unsustainable pace, a strong

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Speaker 2: desire to win, no matter the cost, and the key

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Speaker 2: phrase there is no matter the cost, because there's nothing

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Speaker 2: wrong with winning. We all love to do it right.

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Speaker 2: But it's like when we're hurt ourselves or hurt others

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Speaker 2: to get to the goal. It looks like instrumentalizing our

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Speaker 2: minds and bodies to get to the goal.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So like the eighty hour work weeks, the no sleeping,

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Speaker 2: the wearing, the stress is a badge of honor, all

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Speaker 2: of those things. It looks like black and white either

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Speaker 2: or thinking. And then purposeful there's there's more signatures in

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Speaker 2: the book. Those are just a couple, yeah, And then

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Speaker 2: purposeful ambition is growth mindset thinking right, expansive thinking. It

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Speaker 2: is being in a harmonious relationship with our minds and

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Speaker 2: bodies right like we always want to grow, We want

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Speaker 2: to learn some things, but I'm not hurting myself to

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Speaker 2: get there. It is honoring the pace and moving at

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Speaker 2: that speed of trust that it takes to do good work.

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Speaker 2: It is being more collaborative versus hyper in a vidualistic

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Speaker 2: and needing to shine and win as an individual.

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Speaker 1: I really like the thing that you said around it

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Speaker 1: being collaborative and collective. Winning, like you said, is great.

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Speaker 1: Every human wants to do it. If you don't have

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Speaker 1: anyone to celebrate it with, because you haven't seen your

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Speaker 1: friends in months, because you haven't focused on building positive

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Speaker 1: relationships with your colleagues, because you stopped calling your mum,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of going to be pretty lonely. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be so lonely.

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Speaker 2: And we know that so much of the research says

432
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 2: that longevity and health are connected to community and having

433
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: a really supportive community.

434
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 1: Actually, you're totally right. One of the longest longer funeral

435
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: studies ever done at Harvard University, which I'm sure you know,

436
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: looked at a number of participants for like seventy plus

437
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 1: years and they were like, the key factor in health

438
00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: and longevity was the number of positive and healthy relationships

439
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: that someone has with others. We are going to take

440
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: a short break, but when we return, I want to

441
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: talk more about how competition harms us, the ambition penalties,

442
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: self sabotage, and how to truly work on your own

443
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: sense of self in order to approach ambition in a

444
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: more healthy way. Stay with us, Okay, we are back

445
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: talking about the ambition trap. I want to focus in

446
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: on one part of this in particular, which is how

447
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: competition harms us. We kind of talked about it in

448
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: relation to obviously harming our personal relationships and perhaps with

449
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: our colleagues or our friends. Can you go deeper into

450
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: talking about how that specifically applies to those of us

451
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: in our twenties. Maybe yes.

452
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: I think competition again goes back to scarcity mindset. I

453
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 2: feel like that's the theme of today.

454
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 1: We're just like scarcity mindset, guys, the one where do

455
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: you need.

456
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: To know exactly? And the thing about scarcity mindset, right

457
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: is like it's a systemic and economic problem, but it

458
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: has those two pieces. It has the mindset piece and

459
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 2: the fact that it's systemically reinforced. Right. So oftentimes what

460
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: we see in the workplace is like, oh, there's space

461
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 2: for only one woman or one person in their twenties,

462
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: or you know, one person of color, and we're like,

463
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: oh my god, well I've got to beat out everybody

464
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: that looks like me to get this thing, right, It

465
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 2: causes infighting in those groups, and so I think that, yes,

466
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: we absolutely need to look at our own mindset, like

467
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: where do I feel like I have to fight out

468
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: this other person to win? Right? There's stuff on our

469
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: side of the street there, but also there's stuff that

470
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: needs to shift inside of organizations so that it doesn't

471
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 2: give us that impulse. Right. I always say to my

472
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: clients too, when we're captivated by purpose, we can't be

473
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 2: consumed by competition. And I think this is so important,

474
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 2: especially for work like you like yours. In mind. Right,

475
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 2: it's so easy to look on social media and be like, oh, well,

476
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 2: this person's doing this and I should be doing this, right,

477
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: But when we're so captivated and devoted to our purpose,

478
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: we're not looking in the other lane. We're like, I

479
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: see what I'm here to do, and it is so beautiful,

480
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 2: and I'm so devoted to that thing. And that's what

481
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 2: gets me out of bed every day. I'm actual getting

482
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 2: emotional saying this. You don't have time or care to

483
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: look around because you're so consumed with your contribution in

484
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: a beautiful way.

485
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: And you know what, I've experienced that recently. Actually, now

486
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: that you've said it where when I first was, you know,

487
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: growing the psychology of your twenties, and not even intentionally,

488
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: people were just finding.

489
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: It, which is a beautiful thing.

490
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: It was great. It was Yeah, I was so lucky,

491
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: but I was so insecure because I didn't expect it.

492
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: I never had this experience before, and I was like,

493
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: I have to be doing better. I have to be

494
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: making the most original and the best kind of episodes.

495
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: I have to be putting everything into this. And as

496
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: it is with anything that's entertainment, you know, there are charts,

497
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: and there are ratings, and there are all these things.

498
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: And I really wish that wasn't part of this medium,

499
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: and I wish that it was just more organic, but

500
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: it is, and it would really kind of took some

501
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: of the joy out of it. For me. Was competition.

502
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Now I'm in this phase and in this place where

503
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm just so delighted by what I'm doing. And I

504
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: felt it really in the last maybe six months where

505
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: I don't really check download numbers, I don't really check

506
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: what I don't really pay attention, and I think it's

507
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 1: because I've somehow become a lot more purposeful and intentional

508
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: in that there is no longer. I need to prove

509
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: that I'm capable of doing this, and I'm capable of

510
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 1: being good at this. Now I can just enjoy it.

511
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: So I like that you talked about that, and also

512
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: like the role of joy. What do you think the

513
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: role of joy is an ambition as well?

514
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just want to just put a bowl

515
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: on that last thing that you said, because I think

516
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: it's so beautiful and important because we do live in

517
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: a world that is upheld by metrics. Right, It's like

518
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: same for me, it's like my book sales matter, right.

519
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: But what I'm hearing from you and what's important for

520
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: me is that's not the come from right, That's not

521
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 2: the driver for us. The driver for us is being

522
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: devoted to amazing work and then oftentimes the byproduct of

523
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: that is the numbers. Right. But it's like when we

524
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: set out to like hit the chart and hit the goal,

525
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: and like it's so much control and that I think

526
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 2: eclipses joy for sure. And I want to answer your

527
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 2: joy question, but this there's a segue here.

528
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: I need it tell me.

529
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: So, like what I was just talking about with control, right,

530
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: what that says to me is core wound. So in

531
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: the book when I talk about painful ambition, painful ambition

532
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: is driven by core wounds. So in the book, I

533
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: leverage the work of Lis Borbo, who's a Canadian psychologist,

534
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: and she talks about how there's five core wounds rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal,

535
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: and injustice. And as a result of each of the wounds,

536
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: we were a corresponding mask. So if you have a

537
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: rejection wound, the maskuwer's avoidance. If you have a betrayal wound,

538
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: the maskuwer is control. That's one of mine. And so

539
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: sometimes we can start to see where our wound or

540
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: mask is getting in the way of actually feeling joy

541
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: and contentment in the context of our work. Right, So

542
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: that example you gave is so perfect and classic of

543
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: core wound driving the ambition, and that's painful ambition. And

544
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: then where you are now is like beautiful, purposeful ambition,

545
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: like releasing the mask.

546
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: And I think the way I had to do that

547
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: was obviously you would have done this as well, like

548
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of self work. You

549
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: also just have to get back to being like I

550
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: have a choice here. I could have all the success

551
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: and all the good things, and I can hate myself

552
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: for it every single day and feel like my life

553
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: is burning around me. And then I am constantly in

554
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: a state of urgency and an in a state of pursuit.

555
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: Or I can have all of this and just accept

556
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: that sometimes I am just lucky and sometimes this stuff

557
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: people do just really resonate with you. And sometimes you've

558
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: done all the hard work and that like that investment

559
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: has paid off. You don't have to continue to prove yourself.

560
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure you find this as well, like, how does

561
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: ambition come down to the need to prove ourselves? Have

562
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: you found a link between those two things as well?

563
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: Yes, that's classic painful ambition, right, proving ourselves. And it

564
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: goes back to the core wounds. So you know, one

565
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: of my core wounds is rejection and the mask I

566
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: wear is avoidance. Right, So because I felt rejected as

567
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: a child, I will avoid as an adult, throwing my

568
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: hat in the ring because I'm so worried they'll be

569
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: rejected again. And because I have this rejection wound and

570
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: don't feel this sense of acceptance, I feel this impulse

571
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: to prove myself over and over again. And it looks

572
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: very similar for all the other core wounds as well,

573
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: and so we are all born worthy, right, we were

574
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: born innately worthy. Would anybody look at a brand new

575
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: baby and be like, but not worthy? Right? No, you

576
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: look at a baby and you're like, oh my god,

577
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: it's so perfect. But all this stuff gets layer it

578
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: on to us from our family systems, from culture, et cetera.

579
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: We adopt it as our own, and we think that

580
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: we're not enough and that we have to prove that

581
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: we are valuable. You're born valuable, and that's the message

582
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: that each of us needs to come home to. And

583
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: when we realize that our desire for growth isn't coming

584
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: from that place to prove ourselves, it's coming from this

585
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: is actually just a natural unfolding of my truth.

586
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: And I really liked it. You said that, like it.

587
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 1: You are completely worthy, whether you are successful or not,

588
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: like whether you choose to pursue big, great grand things

589
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: or you choose to just live a really a really

590
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: amazing and slow and simple life. Like, Yes, there is

591
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: not one life path that is more valuable than another.

592
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: So unless you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself,

593
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: as long as you have happiness and kindness and joy,

594
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: you could be like a New York Times bestseller. You

595
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: could be someone who just has a real a garden

596
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: and talks to three people, and both of those lives

597
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: are like inherently valuable. I think it also comes down

598
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: to this weird hierarchy we have in our society that like,

599
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: if you have money, and if you have success, and

600
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: if you have a public figure, a public facing like

601
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: kind of persona, well you must be happier than anyone else.

602
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: And if you are happier, then obviously, like your life

603
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: is better. But if other people perceive you as being

604
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: more successful and happier, then that even that adds to

605
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: that even more. Some of the most successful people you

606
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: meet are actually deeply unhappy. Wow, yeah, most people. Yeah,

607
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: And like some of the richest people in the world,

608
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: it's like they don't have anyone they can trust, Like

609
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: they don't like themselves, the public doesn't like them, Like

610
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: they're not they don't seem like very good people. So

611
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: what is it about this that we think is like

612
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: the secret to life?

613
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I think I think about this all the time.

614
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a weird philosophical question at all.

615
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: We operate in a capitalist system, right, and capitalism says

616
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 2: the more money, the better, right, But that's the essence

617
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: of the ambition trap, because we know that we can

618
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: get all of the money, all of the accolades, like

619
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,479
Speaker 2: all of the trophies, all of the followers, and if

620
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: you don't do the work on the inside, you are

621
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: still going to be miserable, right, because the happiness doesn't

622
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: live outside of us, The contement doesn't live outside of us,

623
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: the contentments on the inside. And even in the book,

624
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: I actually was really careful not to over use the

625
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: language of happiness because even that, I think can become

626
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: a little troubling, because happiness is an emotion and is

627
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: therefore transient. We're not supposed to be happy all the time.

628
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: We're actually the healthiest people on the planet are the

629
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: ones that make space for emo diversity, which is all

630
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: emotions coming and going. And so even this idea of

631
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 2: clinging to happiness and that's the north star, is slightly

632
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: troubling because we're supposed to feel everything. We're supposed to feel, sadness, grief, happiness, joy, disappointment,

633
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: all of it. Not grip onto it, but let it

634
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: come and go in the way that it's supposed to,

635
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: which is why I'm an advocate for contentment, and so

636
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: I don't think any of these people are happy, nor

637
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: do I think that they're contented, because I think that

638
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: they're seeking the thing outside of themselves when the work

639
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: is on the inside.

640
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: No. Absolutely, And I can say is someone I've fallen

641
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: into that many many a time and I read the book. Yeah, no,

642
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: literally exactly. And it's also this sense of like I

643
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: was saying this to someone the other day as well.

644
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: The times as well that I've been posting on social

645
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: media the most that I've portrayed my life as being

646
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: the most incredible have also been the times that I've

647
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: been happy, like been the least content, not the least happy,

648
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: also not very happy, but the least content because I

649
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: felt like the external validation would fill some kind of

650
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: whole or would feel some kind of make us feel valuable.

651
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: And I think this is what this is all coming

652
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: back to, right. We have an unhealthy relationship with ambition

653
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: because we think that the success that ambition will bring,

654
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: or payful ambition will bring, is going to fill a

655
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: hole in our life that nothing else can fill, and

656
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: it's going to fill some kind of need that can

657
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: never be fulfilled by anything other than money, recognition, success,

658
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: And if you continue to believe that, like you said,

659
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: you spoke of your story of becoming ill from burnout,

660
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: your self sabotage, you don't have good relationships. So my

661
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: question for you is, how do we begin to redefine this?

662
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: How do we begin to see ourselves as valuable and

663
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: see how ambition is sustainable without it hurting us?

664
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is the million dollar question, and

665
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: I really believe it starts with the work on the

666
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: core wounds. So literally, in the introduction and in chapter one,

667
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: I get straight into this because I'm like, I don't

668
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: want to waste any time, like this is this is

669
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: what I love that yes, please, And so I think

670
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: that we need to really understand which wounds are and

671
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: how they're showing up in our relationship to ambition and

672
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: success and work and even friendships, Like it shows up

673
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: in relationships all the time. I get this question so much,

674
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: so it's everywhere. And if we don't do that work

675
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: on the core wounds, we are going to be constantly

676
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: seeking the thing outside of ourselves because we don't feel

677
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: worthy on the inside. So we need to bring as

678
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: much of a salve to that wound as we possibly can.

679
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: Otherwise we're in a perpetual chase outside of ourselves. So

680
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: that I think is some of the most fundamental work.

681
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting because I don't know that

682
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: the wound is ever like fully healed, right, I think

683
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: it's always like you know, yeah, getting a little scab,

684
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: a little scar, like getting better, right, building the collagen

685
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: around it. I'm always metaphor, but you know, but it's

686
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: but I think every next level of our careers and

687
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: our becoming, we have a different way of dealing with it, right.

688
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: It's like you're in a very public career. I'm in

689
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: a public career, and because I've done work on those

690
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: core wounds, because I've worked on my nervous system, you know,

691
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: there's a lot of positivity, but there's also some negativity

692
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: that comes with it. But I'm equipped to hold it

693
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: now and it doesn't impact my value because I've done

694
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: at work. Right. It's like, I think it'd be so

695
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: hard to be in a career like minor yours if

696
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: we were outsourcing our value because every comment are the worst.

697
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So literally I was talking to another friend

698
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: of mine about this the other day, and it happens

699
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: not just in this industry, in any industry, but like

700
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: for her, I was talking about how like she would

701
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: get hate comments and it just ruins her life, Like

702
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: her day is ruined. She cannot do anything else, and

703
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: that person hasn't thought about it at all. It's the

704
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: same with like you're in an office job and like

705
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: there's a workplace bully. They don't they don't care, and

706
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: it's gonna completely destroy you. I think that it's again

707
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: this thing. You cannot hinge your value on a relationship,

708
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: on someone else's perception, on material success, all of those

709
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: things are completely fallible. When you have an internal sense

710
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: of I am worthy and I do great things, and

711
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: I am capable, and I trust myself, you are like unsure, shakeable,

712
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: like nothing anyone says is ever going to harm you,

713
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: even if it's nasty and cruel.

714
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think that's so important. Hurt people hurt people, right,

715
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: so they're coming from a core wound, and that's so

716
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: important to see and if you can then still feel

717
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 2: whole in that right and maybe it's even a learning

718
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: for us in it, right. I think that's always a

719
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: beautiful thing too. But if it doesn't take us down,

720
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: Like there's the magic.

721
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: And also it stops that wound from becoming contagious, like

722
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: that person who has tried to bring you down or

723
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: whatever it is like hurt people, hurt people. As you said,

724
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: someone has hurt them you. If you take it on

725
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: and you let that injure you, you will continue to

726
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: do that to someone else. It's why sometimes like our

727
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: biggest haters are the ones that are most insecure about

728
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: themselves because right, no, no, go ahead.

729
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: The part about it being contagious is so true. Right,

730
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 2: if we continue to live in our wounds, then we're

731
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: just inviting others to do the same. And like so

732
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: then it's such an act of service for us to

733
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: do the work on hours. It's so beautifully said.

734
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: And especially like what you were talking about before in

735
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: terms of like ambition is also about community and also

736
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: about collaboration. It's like it's all coming together fixing your

737
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: whole wounds, Like that is the greatest gift you can give,

738
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: not just to like your children, not to your family members,

739
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: but to anyone who comes into contact with you. All

740
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: you allow yourself to be this example of what ambition

741
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: can look like and what a healthy relationship with self

742
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: can look like such as other people jump on the

743
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: bandwagon and like, I'm touper capable of doing that as well.

744
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: That's where the magic is. Literally, that's what people are like, well,

745
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: how do we change the world with this?

746
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: Right?

747
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: And like what starts with us? Because the minute that

748
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: we do that work, we show up differently and we're

749
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 2: in a chance with everybody around us. Right, so if

750
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: I go left instead of going right, now they're accommodating

751
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: me and they're different too, and then there's this beautiful

752
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 2: ripple effect out in the world. And so it starts

753
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: with us, but it can very easily grow from.

754
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: The oh absolutely one. Like people don't realize, you know,

755
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: the idea of obviously like six degrees of separation, Like

756
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: every single person in this in this world is separated

757
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: by maximum six degrees. It's it's wild, Like when you

758
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: really start doing it, Me and my friends do this.

759
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes we're like this random person in this random country

760
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: and it's like, you can it's always six degrees. So

761
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: imagine how quick that positivity can spread, And imagine how

762
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: quick that new vision of ambition can spread if we

763
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: just really start to live it. I do have a

764
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: follow up question though, and I'm sure it's one that

765
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people are asking themselves. How can we

766
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: deliberately slow down without feeling like we're falling behind, especially

767
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: in our twenties, because I feel like this is something

768
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: that people in this decade struggle with, especially.

769
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: Yes, this is such a good one. And so I

770
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 2: think there's two things. First, it is working in our

771
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 2: zone of genius. So in the book I talk about

772
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: how so zone of genius a term that was coined

773
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: by Gay Hendrix in his book The Big Leap. And

774
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: in the book, I talk about how we operate in

775
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 2: three zones. So we have our genus or our exceptional zone,

776
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: our excellent zone, in our zone the space that 'ra

777
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 2: average at. And so when we know what our zone

778
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: of genius is or what our exceptional traits are, we

779
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: have to use so much less energy and time because

780
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: it's our magic. Right, it's just kind of innate. You

781
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: don't have to push or force, Right, I can see

782
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: that this is part of your genius, what you're doing

783
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: right now, and so you can show up in this

784
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: thing in less like you don't need to spend eight

785
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: hours a day in this right. It's like it's so

786
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 2: fine tuned and potent that you don't need to spend

787
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: all day every day doing it. So I think that

788
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: shift from our excellent zone or our zone, which is

789
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: where most of us start our careers, because we're kind

790
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: of honing. And if you can spend even just starting

791
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: by ten minutes a day in your zone of genius

792
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 2: and then building that over time, you don't have to

793
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: worry about slowing down because the contribution over in your

794
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: genius is going to be so potent it makes up

795
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: for everything. And then the other piece is letting your

796
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: nervous system feel safe doing less, because we live in

797
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: a world that is moving so fast, and knowledge changes

798
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: so quickly, and everybody's moving at a million miles a minute,

799
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: and so it feels unsafe for most of our nervous systems.

800
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: To go slow.

801
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: Like I'm in this season right now, like I mentioned before,

802
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: where it's a little slower. It's the summer, And just

803
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: because I came off a season that was so busy,

804
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: I noticed that my nervous system at first was like,

805
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: is this safe. We're used to running a million miles

806
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: a minute, especially for the last year. Is it okay?

807
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 2: And I had to really do the work to let

808
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: my body feel safe at this slower pace, but reminding

809
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 2: myself right of like I don't need to do everything.

810
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: I need to do the thing that I am best

811
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 2: and most potent at. And I think that's true for anybody,

812
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: whatever stage of their career, but especially in our twenties.

813
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and especially as you're experimenting. Right, it's okay to

814
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: be like, I'm actually not that good at this and

815
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to prove yes by proving that

816
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: I can be the best. Like I had this when

817
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: I was in UNI and I was studying economics, and

818
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm never going to be a top

819
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 1: student in this subject. It's just not going to happen. Yeah.

820
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: I also studied economics and also knew that I was

821
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: not going to be a top student in the topic.

822
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, good bye with a bee, all right.

823
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That's when I got to micro two. I

824
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: was out. I was like, Microeconomics two is where I

825
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: was like, this is not my future, Like this is

826
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: not who I'm going to be.

827
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: Oh my god, say our class average in Microeconomics two

828
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: was a thirty six out of one hundred. That was

829
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: a class average, Like we were all failing.

830
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god. No, See I did it during COVID,

831
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: and I think that they were nicer to us because

832
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: like I was. It was like my last year was

833
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: the first year of COVID, and then I also did

834
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: like Macro two. It was just a it was just

835
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: a lot. But you know, I remember being like, oh

836
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: my god, I've always put so much in my grades

837
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: and I've always tied so much to like my output,

838
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: and if I'm not good at this, like an employer

839
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: isn't going to want to hire me for this. For

840
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: this one, I have to be amazing and everything. Otherwise

841
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: I'm not a well rounded individual. And I blah blah

842
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And then I was like wait a second,

843
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: Like I can focus more on these psychology subjects and

844
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: my great point average will say the same because I'm

845
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: doing it. Was just like this. It's such a basic moment,

846
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: but just this moment of being like, I'm not going

847
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: to give up, but I'm just going to spend more

848
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: time in my zone of genius and spend more time

849
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: on the thing that I'm like good at. Because we

850
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: all do have natural talents, we all have something that

851
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: we probably multiple things that we are going to be

852
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: it's going to be easy for us, easier for us

853
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: to be great at. Yeah, and so maybe part of

854
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: like being in your twenties is not just finding out

855
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: what you enjoy, but also finding out what that is

856
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: for you. And also normally the enjoyment comes with it, right,

857
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: because if you're naturally good at something, it's easier to

858
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: get into a flow state, it's easier to feel like purposeful.

859
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: So honestly, it's incredibly powerful, right.

860
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: And the one thing I want to say too, is

861
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: because I feel like my twenties was a process of

862
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: checking off everything that I was not good at to

863
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: get to what I was good at. And I think

864
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: sometimes that process can feel like sticky and uncomfortable, but

865
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 2: that's the journey, right of like just being like, oh

866
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: not that thing, not that thing that, oh this thing right. Yeah,

867
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: So if you're in a process where it's like you

868
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: feel like you've done all the things that you're not

869
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: good at, keep going because it means that you're closer

870
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: to the thing that you are good at.

871
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: Oh so so true, like when you get there the flows,

872
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: like you'll know. People always like, how will I know?

873
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 2: It's undeniable?

874
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: It's undeniable, like you will know because it will just

875
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: feel like you could. You could live your entire life

876
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: that in the time that you spend doing these activities.

877
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. It doesn't always have to do

878
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: have to be bad about work exactly.

879
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: And I think that we do feel so much pressure

880
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: to monetize everything that we do. And exactly what you said,

881
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: it's like, if it feels sacred to keep it as

882
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: your hobby, keep it as your hobby. Also, if you

883
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: don't want to do purposeful work in your day job

884
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: because you want to keep that for yourself, do that right.

885
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: There's so much to be said for the good enough job,

886
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: and so purpose doesn't have to be our job. We

887
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 2: don't have to have the purposeful job. We don't have

888
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 2: to turn everything into our I and that's so important

889
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: to hear because that's not how I started.

890
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 1: I always say to people, if you want to make

891
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: a career out of your hobby, you most certainly have

892
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: to love it two hundred percent, because the moment you

893
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: start making money from something, you're gonna love it a

894
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: whole lot less. You want to make sure and you're

895
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: still loving it like as much as you can I

896
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: have a friend who's like this, and she's like, I

897
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: don't really care what my job is. I my life

898
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: exists outside of my job. My life exists in my

899
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: relationships and in my day to day I just make

900
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm just choosing the job that I think I can

901
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: make the most money from the least amount of effort

902
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: from so I can go and have fun. And I

903
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: was like, great, And that woman, I love her. She

904
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: uses her sickly if she uses her personal leave like

905
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: she does not give an f And I'm like, that

906
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: is that is an aligned life, that is full ambition

907
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: right exactly.

908
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: She is living a beautifully aligned life. Good for her.

909
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: I've got one final question for you, and it has

910
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: nothing to do with ambition. Actually, it's the question we

911
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: ask every single guest at the end of the episode.

912
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: What is one piece of advice that you have for

913
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: people in their twenty that has nothing to do with

914
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: what we spoke about today.

915
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: I would say, like it is related tangentially, but like

916
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 2: have as much fun as possible. I think that connected

917
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: to what we were saying. We feel all of this

918
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: pressure to do all of these things and achieve all

919
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: of these things in our twenties. But like, what about

920
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: the fun? Right, It's like your joints will never be

921
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: as good as they are in their twenties, probably, right, So, like,

922
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: you know, do the thing that's outside, like go on

923
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 2: vacation with your friends, like do the thing that brings

924
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: you the most joy. Like I think that we just

925
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: put our heads down and work too hard and we

926
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: miss the fun and then we look back and we're

927
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 2: so nostalgic, and it's like I had it so good.

928
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: Why didn't I take advantage? And so think as much

929
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,959
Speaker 2: as you can, just really have fun.

930
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that advice. That's actually good. I needed

931
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: to hear this today. I was going to sit in

932
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: and I was going to sit in my hotel room

933
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: and work all day, and I think, I'm gonna go

934
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: do go for a run, I'm very exploring, I'm going

935
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: to play.

936
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

937
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: I love that. Well, I'm gonna thank you so much

938
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: for coming on the podcast. This felt like a very

939
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: soulfully aligned casation and what I really needed to hear.

940
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: Where can everyone find your book? Because I think it's

941
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: essential reading.

942
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. This is one

943
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: of my most fun conversations, and I love how you

944
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: related everything to what you're going through, what your listeners

945
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: are going through. It just makes it so much more

946
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: fun to participate in. So thank you.

947
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

948
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: And you can find the book everywhere books are sold,

949
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: So whether that's your favorite indie bookstore, they can order

950
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: it for you or a national retailer. It is available everywhere.

951
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: And it is also has a beautiful cover. I will

952
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: say I have a copy not with me, but at

953
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: my house and I had someone over the other day

954
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: who picked it up and now like, it's a beautiful

955
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: book cover. Oh, thank you yeah, and it's a good yeah.

956
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: I was like, it's a good book as well. I

957
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: think she took it home with her. But I'll make

958
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: sure that that is super accessible for you guys to find.

959
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it's re

960
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: framed something for you in terms of ambition or success,

961
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: especially in our twenty Sometimes it is just the reminder

962
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: that we need to hear. Make sure that you are

963
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: following me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast, and that

964
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: you're following us here on Spotify, Apple, iHeart wherever you

965
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,720
Speaker 1: are listening to help the show grow and reach new people,

966
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: and so you know when new episodes are coming out,

967
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: but until next time, stay safe, be kind, maybe be

968
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: a little bit less ambitious today, be gentle with yourself,

969
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: and we will talk very soon.