1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to short Stuff. There's Chuck, there's Jerry. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm Josh, and this is Welsh. I already said, short stuff, 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: I've already screwed up and wasted time, squandered precious time. Chuck, 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: let's just get started. Bannon in it? Oh yeah, in it? 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: Like I said, Oh, yeah, who was the I can't 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: remember the Simpsons character? Now? What a dummy bleeding gums Murphy. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Well he played the sacks. Yeah, I know, but I 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: don't know. He was a jazz man, not a blues man. 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: He was a hepcat. He was super happy. He wore 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: like sandals year round without socks with suits, I believe. 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, this is about the blues, and specifically Robert Johnson. Um. 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: And this is I have an interesting relationship with the blues. Yeah, 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: and that I love occasionally putting on like Sun House 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: or Robert Johnson or something like that, um and enjoy 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: it for a bit, but then I have to turn 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: it off. And I also recognize that blues is the 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: foundation of rock and roll, like full stop, but I 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: also hate like I just call it the blind Willie's Blues. 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: It's a place here in Atlanta. This legendary blues barber Like, 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: it's like the blues version of smooth jazz. Yeah, it's 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: like where you see like the fifty two year old 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: and flip flops and cargo shorts up there playing the blues. 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: That's the stuff that makes me hate the blues despite 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: loving rock and roll and recognizing that blues is the 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: foundation of that. I'm with you, so you can collective, 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: you can. It is complicated. Actually, that's really really good 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: way to put it. All right, So we're talking about 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: Robert Johnson and whether or not he sold his soul 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: to the devil at the Crossroads to gain more talent 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: as a blues guitarist and singer. Spoiler, that did not happen, 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: because there is no there is no devil. What I've 32 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: wasted my life. But we're gonna talk a little bit 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: about Robert Johnson's history and uh, and he's certainly man 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: who sang the blues for a reason, a lot of reasons. Yeah, 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: he had a pretty rough life. So he was as 36 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: a little kid. He he got moved from place to place, 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: mostly between uh little towns in Mississippi and I believe 38 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Memphis and um he uh, he lost his dad early 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: and I think his dad left, his stepfather abused him. Um, 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and he uh, yeah, he just kind of had a 41 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: rough especially after he became an adult. He married his girlfriend, Virginia, 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: and they had a kid, and Virginia and the baby 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: died during childbirth, and so he kind of, um got 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: unmoored after that and very very quickly, um started singing 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: the blues more than ever, became a pretty hardcore alcoholic, 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: I believe as a result. So yeah, he he definitely 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: had it rough, and he lived the life that that 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: you could live to be the foundation of the Blues basically, 49 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: which he grew up to be. And they they think 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: he even he's a member of the twenty seven club, 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: perhaps the first even if you really think about it. 52 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: But he died at twenty seven years old, supposedly out 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: of and you know, records are tough on guys like 54 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Robert Johnson, but supposedly was poisoned by the husband of 55 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: one of his lovers on you know, when he was 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: twenty seven years old. Right. So, but in that time, though, 57 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: he managed to create like a body of work that, 58 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 1: like you said, is is basically pointed to is one 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: of the major blocks in the foundation of rock and roll. Um, 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: this is in the thirties that he was he was 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: playing prolifically, right, Yeah, and he you know, he followed 62 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: in the footsteps of Uh. You know, he wasn't the 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: first blues guitarist by any means. No, No, he wasn't. 64 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: He wasn't. In fact, Um, there's the story, and this 65 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: is the whole thing where it's like, you know, why 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: why did he sell the sol of double? What's the 67 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: what's the story? We're gonna tell you this story. The 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: whole thing starts back in and robin Inville, Mississippi, and 69 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: there is a duke joint where the blues is being 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: played by a couple of legends, um sonhouse who you mentioned, Uh? 71 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: And I think who else was there that night? Willie 72 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: Brown was playing that night and these guys were already 73 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: established as Delta Blues Mett right and Um. The house 74 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: was packed, and I guess in between sets, a very 75 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: young Robert Johnson, uh came up to the stage and 76 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: grabbed and I'm sure the stage is just a chair 77 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: that was on the same level as the other chairs 78 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: or wherever people were sitting and understanding, Um, and he 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: grabs the guitar not even his guitar, I mean the audacity, right, 80 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: and he starts playing, and because it's Robert Johnson, you 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: would assume that everybody was just stopped, transfixed at how 82 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: amazing he was. That is not how it went down 83 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: at all. As a matter of fact. No, he wasn't 84 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: very good. Uh, and Sonhouse, you know, even says, uh, 85 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: why don't he said that? People came and told him, 86 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: why don't some of y'all go down and make that 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: boy put that thing down? He's running us crazy, right 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: because his playing was so bad and this is humiliating enough, 89 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: they went over and basically said, you you not only 90 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: need to stop playing, you need to leave this juke joy. 91 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: You just showed you're actually not not cool enough to 92 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: even sit here as like an audience member anymore. So 93 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: he left and he disappeared, and he vanished. And then 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: a year later, as legend has it, right, uh, at 95 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: another blues place again, Willie Brown and um Sonhouse, we're 96 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: playing and Robert Johnson shows up, and he shows up 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: with a guitar, his own guitar this time, and he 98 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: starts playing and it's like nothing anyone else has ever heard. 99 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: This guy has turned insanely good, almost overnight, and he's 100 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: got a seventh string on his guitar and everyone was 101 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: like what yeah, and he used it to great effect. 102 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Eric Clapton put it, um kind of succinctly. He said that, Um, 103 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: he was simultaneously playing a disjointed baseline on the low strings, 104 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: rhythm on the middle rings, and lead on the trouble strings, 105 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: which had the effect of sounding like there were multiple 106 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: people playing when it was really just him on that 107 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: seven string guitar. That's how fast and how varied the 108 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: music he was playing was, and no one had ever 109 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: heard anything like it. Yeah. So uh. The legend is 110 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: that he went down to the crossroads during that time, 111 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: sold his soul to the devil, and Satan granted him 112 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: with these special talents in exchange for his soul. But 113 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: like you already spoiled that, that actually probably didn't happen. 114 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: So should we take a break. We should take a break. 115 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: We'll do some more explaining when we get back. M okay, chuck. 116 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: So we've established that there actually isn't a devil unless 117 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: it's the greatest trick you ever pulled. We may have 118 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: just fallen victim to that, but um, not only, so 119 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: does that mean that that story didn't happen in that sense, 120 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: it probably didn't even happen to Robert Johnson. There's seems 121 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: to have been a case of mistaken identity because there's 122 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: a story of an earlier blues man who's not related 123 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: to Robert Johnson, but at the same last name. His 124 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: name was Tommy Johnson. And if you're a fan of 125 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: the movie, oh brother, were art thou and you were 126 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: only familiar with Robert Johnson like me, you may have 127 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: been wondering all this time why they didn't just call 128 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: that character Tommy Johnson Robert Johnson, since he was clearly 129 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: based on Robert Johnson. Well, it turns out, I know 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: now that the Coen Brothers did their homework. They tend 131 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: to do that. So, yeah, Tommy Johnson was in that 132 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: movie and had sold his soul to the devil in 133 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: that movie. It's been covered elsewhere. That was a great 134 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: movie to me. Crossroads with Ralpha Maccio was a good well. 135 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: I mean it was one of those HBO movies that, 136 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: as a young kid who got a guitar at thirteen, 137 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: watched like fifty times. I thought it was pretty great. 138 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean, Steve. I isn't it? Oh? Yeah, he plays 139 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: Satan's right hand man and lead shredder in the in 140 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: the main cutting heads competition at the end. Did Pat 141 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: Morita play Satan? He totally should have. No. Who was it? 142 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: Oh man, he's been in stuff. If you saw him, 143 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: he be like, oh he plays a good Satan wings Houser. No, 144 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: Tree Williams No, I don't know. Then those are the 145 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: only three actors you know? Uh, Tommy Chong nor anyway, 146 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I haven't seen it in a while. I'd like to 147 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: check it out. But that there's always sort of been 148 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: this blues legend all the way around is where the 149 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: crossroads you go meet the Devil. You sign up for 150 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: a lifetime of hell fire in exchange for um. But 151 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: what seems to be like a good deal on earth, 152 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: even though the tail end of that tale always ends 153 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: is like they die young or something. Right. Don't fall 154 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: for it, kids, that's right, Like it's supposedly Jimmy Page 155 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: sold is sold at the devil too? Sure? Who didn't 156 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: you know? So? Um? The story, though, you know, seems 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: to have originated with Tommy Johnson. And there's a there's 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: a an article, there's this site Chuck called um Paranormal Academic, 159 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: which is just like a dream come true for me. 160 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: I just found it. Um. It was linked to in 161 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: this house Stuff Works article, and I mean, you're not 162 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: going to tinfoil hat dot com anywhere, No, not anymore. 163 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: I've kind I've resended my membership um so on Paranormal Academic. 164 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: There's a an excerpt from an interview with Tommy Johnson's 165 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: brother who said, Tommy told me the story of what happened, 166 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: and he supposedly went down to the crossroads. He said, 167 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: anybody can do this. You get onto the crossroads, get 168 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: there a little before midnight to make sure they're on time, 169 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: which is hilarious that he included a little detail be 170 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: be punctual and um, if you bring your own instrument, 171 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: like great big black man will show up, take your 172 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: instrument from you, tune it for you, hand it back 173 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: and the deal is done. That's how it happens. And 174 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: that's what the legend became. And but then at some 175 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: point it seems to have been transposed onto from Tommy 176 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: Johnson onto the later on much greater known Robert Johnson. 177 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: And Robert Johnson seems to have been like sure Yeah, 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: that happened to me, and you can really see that 179 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: in some of the song titles of the body of 180 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: his work. Yeah, hell hound on my trail, Me and 181 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: the Devil blues um. Obviously the song Crossroads, Crossroad blues 182 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: up jumped the devil. Here's the thing though, The singing 183 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: about the devil and talking about the devil in that 184 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: community at that time was very commonplace, and Robert Johnson 185 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: was talking about his demons, not literal demons, just his 186 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: demons in life because he had a rough go and 187 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: then you know, fell into alcoholism and chasing women and uh, 188 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: probably believed that the hell hounds were on his tail 189 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: or I'm sorry, on his trail right, in his it's right, 190 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: the devil had given him. So um. That's the interpretation 191 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: by his grandson, Stephen Johnson, who also has an answer 192 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: for that question. Okay, alright, fine, but yeah, but besides 193 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: the supernatural, how could somebody go from zero to hero 194 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: blues legend wise in just a year like that? And 195 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: Stephen Johnson's like, actually it is probably more like three years, 196 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: Like yeah, he actually probably was kicked out of that 197 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: juke joint for playing badly and he probably did come 198 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: back and blow those same people away. But it wasn't 199 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: a year is about three years, and he didn't go 200 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: sell a soul of the devil. He went and studied 201 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: under a legendary guitarist named Ike Zimmerman, whose family confirms 202 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: that Robert Johnson was there all the time around that time. Yeah. So, 203 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: like the the boring but also inspiring answer was practice. Yeah, 204 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: don't he got good because he played a ton of guitar. 205 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: Probably uh, because he wanted to get better, but probably 206 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: also due to a little bit of shame and wanted 207 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: to go back there and make a name for himself. 208 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: So he practiced and practiced in practice like anybody who 209 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: was good at anything does. And that is the true 210 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: legacy of Robert Johnson, legendary blues man. Right right, well, 211 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. You can read about this article on 212 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: how stuff Works. That's where we got this one, right Chuck, 213 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: That's right, all right, Well then until next time, Short 214 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: stuff away. Stuff you should know is production of iHeart 215 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, 216 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 217 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: listened to your favorite shows