Speaker 1: I woke up one morning and the image of the
Speaker 1: flag came into my mind, and I got up and
Speaker 1: threw it out, and a week later I had the
Speaker 1: first trans flag.
Speaker 2: Hello listeners, and welcome back to Beauty translated. This week
Speaker 2: marks the end of another beautiful season of our show,
Speaker 2: and I can't think of a better way to close
Speaker 2: out than with a two part interview with a major
Speaker 2: trans trailblazer, the woman who created the trans Pride flag,
Speaker 2: Monica Helms. Her wife Darling Wagner, also joins us for
Speaker 2: an enlightening chat with those who have made history and
Speaker 2: brought us to where we are today. Without further ado,
Speaker 2: here is the wonderful Monica Helms. So thank you both
Speaker 2: for being here with me today.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for inviting us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Monica had been working with Dallas Denny,
Speaker 2: who was publishing Monica's writing in Chris and Tapestry TSTV
Speaker 2: Tapestry magazines, much of which you can easily access to
Speaker 2: Dan thanks to digital trenched into archive dot net. She
Speaker 2: quickly became a well known activist and thought leader on
Speaker 2: trans issues in the late nineteen eighties and into the
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1: I spent eight years in the Navy, served on two submarines.
Speaker 1: I was married and had two sons, and now I
Speaker 1: have four grandsons. I transitioned in nineteen ninety seven, so
Speaker 1: I've been living this life for quite a long time
Speaker 1: my true self and I was an activist in the
Speaker 1: trans community, mostly for trans veterans. CO founded a organization,
Speaker 1: the Transgender American Veterans Association, and also oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Created the transflat Yeah absolutely created the trans Pride flag,
Speaker 2: which is huge. Yes, Monica Holmes was the first person
Speaker 2: to create a flag that would unite the entire trans community.
Speaker 2: The entire LGBTQ plus community was already represented under the
Speaker 2: famous rainbow flag created by Gilbert Baker in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 2: and today the community has more than ninety individual flags
Speaker 2: to represent the individual communities under the rainbow flag. You've
Speaker 2: seen it, you know it. It's as simple and beautiful
Speaker 2: as the rainbow flag before it. Two blue stripes followed
Speaker 2: by two pink in the middle and a singular white
Speaker 2: stripe at the center.
Speaker 1: I was born in South Carolina, but I wasn't raised here.
Speaker 1: Spent most of my life in Arizona.
Speaker 2: I think I read that you returned to South Carolina
Speaker 2: and the military. And was that around the time you
Speaker 2: started transitioning.
Speaker 1: No, you don't transition into villagary. Well, that's true, that's true,
Speaker 1: especially not in the nineteen seventies. But I discovered who
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: When we say back then, it wasn't even that long
Speaker 2: ago that trans individuals had to fit a certain mold
Speaker 2: in order to be given treatment to begin transitioning. It's
Speaker 2: thanks to activists such as Monica Dallastinni and many before
Speaker 2: them that we have the freedom from medical gatekeeping to
Speaker 2: access treatment for ourselves as trans people, a freedom that
Speaker 2: is slowly being reversed in this country state by state,
Speaker 2: just like many other freedoms that women have gained in
Speaker 2: the past.
Speaker 1: But I didn't have a name to it, There was
Speaker 1: no name for it back then. But I did know
Speaker 1: that if the Navy caught me dressing as a woman,
Speaker 1: they would kick me out.
Speaker 2: Around the time that you discovered who you were and
Speaker 2: you realized that this was your true self and you
Speaker 2: had to keep that hidden for a while, what was
Speaker 2: that like for you.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, just to had to make sure that
Speaker 1: any of the things that I had for dressing up
Speaker 1: would be well hid in someplace. But you see, at
Speaker 1: the time, I didn't realize that I was a train
Speaker 1: gender woman because one of the things that would have
Speaker 1: given me away would have been my attraction to men,
Speaker 1: which I was not. And so in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: I thought I was a heterosexual cross dresser. But my
Speaker 1: wife wasn't too thrilled about any of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and back then there was a lot of gatekeeping
Speaker 2: around who could transition exactly, and if you were attracted
Speaker 2: to women, then they were less likely to give you
Speaker 2: access to transition, right. Yeah, And of course that's changed
Speaker 2: for the better now, but yeah, that's a challenge that
Speaker 2: you had to live with for a while. Exactly soon
Speaker 2: Monica would find herself in Atlanta and close to the
Speaker 2: home base of Dallastani and aegis, the American Educational Gender
Speaker 2: Information Service.
Speaker 1: One day, I believe it or not, something tell me
Speaker 1: I had to leave Phoenix and the job that I
Speaker 1: had there was a long distance operator for Sprint, and
Speaker 1: I see the writing on the wall that long distance
Speaker 1: operators were not long for this world. So I looked
Speaker 1: around and found places in Atlanta that was still far
Speaker 1: to Sprint, and so I transferred. But I had already
Speaker 1: created the flag before that. Well, first of all, I
Speaker 1: didn't create it for the trans community because I didn't
Speaker 1: know whether it would be popular or not. So I
Speaker 1: was having dinner with Michael Page, which is the person
Speaker 1: who created the Bisexual Pride flag, and he said that,
Speaker 1: you know, the trans community could use a flag too,
Speaker 1: and we talked about it, and he said the best
Speaker 1: thing is to keep it simple because the least amount
Speaker 1: of stitches, the chiefer it is to buy, and chiefers
Speaker 1: sell because back then they weren't silk screening flags.
Speaker 2: Back then, they were stitching the individual yeah colors together.
Speaker 1: And so about two weeks later, I woke up one
Speaker 1: morning and the image of the flag came into my
Speaker 1: mind and I got up and drew it out. It
Speaker 1: looked really good, and I contacted the people that made
Speaker 1: the Bisexual Pride flag and they sent me swatches and
Speaker 1: I picked the swatches out and a week later I
Speaker 1: had the first trans flag. Everybody was asking what's that?
Speaker 1: What's that? And I had to explain to him just
Speaker 1: a transgender flag. And the colors mean this light blue
Speaker 1: is traditional color for baby boys, and pink traditional color
Speaker 1: for baby girls. And the white in the middle is
Speaker 1: for those that are non binary or have no gender.
Speaker 2: At all, gender non conforming. Yes, yeah, but.
Speaker 1: See some of those terms were invented back then, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Along the way, I had to change the meaning of
Speaker 1: the white stripe to be with whatever is the current today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because now there's its own non binary flag, yes,
Speaker 2: which I guess there wasn't when you made the trans
Speaker 2: flag exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like ninety different flags that represent people in
Speaker 1: this community.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about the significance of flags for
Speaker 2: a movement or for getting a point across? Is there importance?
Speaker 1: There? There is importance. And I'm also on the board
Speaker 1: of the Gilbert Baker Foundation. Gilbert Baker was the one
Speaker 1: that created the rainbow flag, and this board is to
Speaker 1: help to promote all the different flags and to promote
Speaker 1: the rainbow flag. And I feel that it's a very
Speaker 1: important organization because it helps to fight the hatred towards
Speaker 1: LGBTQ people, and the flags are some of the things
Speaker 1: that help us to show our loyalty in ourselves.
Speaker 2: When you debut the flag in two thousand and people
Speaker 2: were very curious about it. It caught on quickly. How
Speaker 2: do you feel like we have progressed or even maybe
Speaker 2: regressed as a community since then, and since everyone's like
Speaker 2: adopted it, how do you feel like things have changed
Speaker 2: since then?
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't realize that it was being popular until
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen when I started looking at pride across the
Speaker 1: world and I started seeing the trans flag in places
Speaker 1: and colors, the trans colors, and I'm going, WHOA, this
Speaker 1: is interesting. I mean, it really surprised me. And now
Speaker 1: I've seen the flag on every continent, including Antarctica. The
Speaker 1: only two flags that have been shown on Antarctica are
Speaker 1: the Rainbow flag in the trans flag.
Speaker 2: Seeing her flag's colors in every country, on every continent
Speaker 2: even proved that what it stands for is in fact
Speaker 2: present in culture is worldwide. Monica knew that what she
Speaker 2: had created was a significant symbol of a moon men
Speaker 2: and had earned its place in the history of human civilization.
Speaker 1: So in twenty thirteen, I said, oh, no, I have
Speaker 1: the original flag. I need to find a place to
Speaker 1: put it so it'd be safe. So I decided to
Speaker 1: start at the top and contacted the Smithsonian. And the
Speaker 1: Smithsonian was just starting to collect LGBTQ items, and so
Speaker 1: they were interested in this and I had to tell
Speaker 1: them all about the flag and all about me, because
Speaker 1: they don't just want you to give something. They want
Speaker 1: to know about the people that donate. They want to
Speaker 1: know the history of this person. And they do bring
Speaker 1: it out occasionally for various reasons to show.
Speaker 2: For maybe like trendsday of visibility, or remember.
Speaker 1: Very yeah, various things of that nature. And August nineteenth
Speaker 1: is the day I created the flag, and was actually
Speaker 1: the day I ended up donating it to the Smithsonian
Speaker 1: fifteen years later. Oh that's a transgender flag day.
Speaker 2: That's awesome. August nineteenth.
Speaker 1: August nineteenth.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about another flag that is
Speaker 2: a newer flag.
Speaker 1: I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break here, listeners. When
Speaker 2: we come back, Monica and I talk more flags and
Speaker 2: we're back. I wanted to ask you about another flag
Speaker 2: that is a newer flag.
Speaker 1: I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2: Is it okay if we talk about the progress flag?
Speaker 1: Yes, And you'll get negative responses from me, that's.
Speaker 2: Fine because I personally don't love the Progress flag myself,
Speaker 2: and I want you to share your honest opinions. About
Speaker 2: it because I have some opinions about it too.
Speaker 1: Well, there's more than just opinions. There's the fact that
Speaker 1: the guy that created it, Dan Quaysar, and what he
Speaker 1: did was he made it a copyrighted flag, so people
Speaker 1: have to pay more for the flag, more for the design.
Speaker 1: Companies can't use it without you know, paying money for it,
Speaker 1: and every other flag that's out there is was given
Speaker 1: to the.
Speaker 2: Community as free to use public domain.
Speaker 1: Second of all, he didn't even have the courtesy of
Speaker 1: contacting me and said I want to use your colors
Speaker 1: in my flag. I probably would have been okay by
Speaker 1: if he asked, but he never did. And now he's
Speaker 1: making money off of something that I.
Speaker 2: Created, right, which you never even sought to see a
Speaker 2: profit on to begin with.
Speaker 1: And so this is not a we're we're not very
Speaker 1: happy that people those of us at the Guilt Baker Foundation,
Speaker 1: though officially they don't see anything about it, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely something that everybody is upset about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think even I'm a younger trans person,
Speaker 2: I'm a younger LGBT person, and I've seen the introduction
Speaker 2: of the progress flag, and initially I wanted to be
Speaker 2: excited about it. But once you learn about the fact
Speaker 2: that it's copyrighted and you have to license it for
Speaker 2: a fee and all of that, that is very It's
Speaker 2: kind of the antithesis of what we want as a community, right.
Speaker 2: And then another thing too that I feel like is
Speaker 2: interesting about the progress flag is I feel like it
Speaker 2: and I don't know if you feel this way, but
Speaker 2: I feel like the rainbow flag was already including of everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, see, now there's something that I have an
Speaker 1: analogy for that. I look at the rainbow flag like
Speaker 1: the American flag, and all the other flags in the
Speaker 1: community are like state flags. So the rainbow flag includes everybody,
Speaker 1: and then you have your own individual flag for your
Speaker 1: own personal right.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like it was an unnecessary addition.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was trying to be inclusive and and he
Speaker 1: ended up with something that looked a little ugly.
Speaker 2: The other thing about it too, is that it was
Speaker 2: updated within the same year to include the intersex flag,
Speaker 2: and then it was updated again to include the Umbrella
Speaker 2: for sex Workers on the flag. And in my opinion,
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of young people that are
Speaker 2: watching this happen, it's almost like it's never going to
Speaker 2: be inclusive enough, Like we're just going to continue to
Speaker 2: update that Progress flag until it looks like a quilt
Speaker 2: of some kind, you know, yeah, does it feel that way?
Speaker 1: Or I just like I didn't like it originally and
Speaker 1: I'm not going to like anything that's updated. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's a to me, it would be very useless to
Speaker 1: use it, And you know, stick with the rainbow flag.
Speaker 1: And if you know, you want to show your own
Speaker 1: colors or bisexual flag or trans flag, whatever those are,
Speaker 1: it's important too.
Speaker 2: The spirit that lies behind a symbol is important. It
Speaker 2: is this spirit that allows the message that the symbol
Speaker 2: represents to fully wrap its arms around a group of people.
Speaker 2: While the Progress Flag was created with a spirit that
Speaker 2: was about personal, notoriety and profit at the expense of
Speaker 2: the message, it is no surprise that it ultimately failed
Speaker 2: to be as inclusive as it was trying to be.
Speaker 2: When Monica created the trans Pride Flag, she understood the
Speaker 2: importance of the symbol's spirit and being unified by it,
Speaker 2: and today the original Pride flag, in all its elegant simplicity,
Speaker 2: still unites everyone under the LGBTQ plus umbrella. Do you
Speaker 2: feel like the trans flag is more important than it
Speaker 2: has ever been.
Speaker 1: I feel that it. Yeah, it definitely helps. I see
Speaker 1: it at all these protests that are out there, you know,
Speaker 1: protesting bands on gender confirming healthcare, and and now Florida
Speaker 1: has gone to the point where they get band gender
Speaker 1: confirming healthcare for all adults and every every trans person.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and everyone is losing their healthcare providers in Florida.
Speaker 2: Texas is trying to do the same thing where it's
Speaker 2: they're making it basically untenable for doctors to perform gender
Speaker 2: affirming care. How do you feel like, what do you
Speaker 2: think is a way forward for us as a community
Speaker 2: in all of this?
Speaker 1: Vote? Yeah, don't vote for anybody that has an R
Speaker 1: and in front of their name, Okay, because you know
Speaker 1: we're looking at I mean, I'll just say it. Ronda
Speaker 1: Santis is a Nazi. Yeah, he is a full out Nazi.
Speaker 1: He's doing things that Nazi Germany did in the thirties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: banning books, and he wants to have a register of
Speaker 1: transgender people.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, which is an alarmed you know what?
Speaker 1: You know what that leads to?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, it's a it's alarming, and it's it's terrifying,
Speaker 2: and I think in twenty twenty four, we're just going
Speaker 2: to continue to as the presidential campaign ramps up, it's
Speaker 2: just going to continue to be more and more difficult
Speaker 2: for trans people. I think as these things get talked
Speaker 2: about in the public.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're even thinking of moving really out of Georgia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. And how long have you?
Speaker 2: How long have you lived here?
Speaker 1: Since two thousand and Darlene's been here most of her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because this is where you were raised, right, Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 2: Darlene Wagner is Monica's wife, and as we're both lifelong
Speaker 2: george Natives, I felt connected to her. Here's Darlene.
Speaker 3: I have lived in Georgia for an overwhelming majority of
Speaker 3: my years. I spent a little time in the Western
Speaker 3: States between undergrad and graduate school, and I started Georgia
Speaker 3: Tech just down the street from here graduate school in
Speaker 3: two thousand and four, and in twenty twelve, I graduated
Speaker 3: from Georgia Tech with a PhD in bioinformatics. Bioinformatics is
Speaker 3: basically computer science applied to biology and DNA sequencing. Tell
Speaker 3: her when you transition started your transition. I'll get around that.
Speaker 3: At present, I work at the Centers for Disease Control
Speaker 3: and Prevention doing bioinformatics. It can get a little boring
Speaker 3: for me because I'm a real people person. I'm not
Speaker 3: your stereotypical introverted scientist.
Speaker 2: Type computer person. Yeah. I was reading about you and
Speaker 2: I saw that on your blog I think you had
Speaker 2: from like years ago, you said that the two books
Speaker 2: that you live your life by are the Bible and Nature.
Speaker 2: Do you care to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, I have really been into nature in the
Speaker 3: outdoors since I was very young. Everything dealing with all
Speaker 3: the dysphoria I had growing up, Being out in nature
Speaker 3: had a healing effect on me, so I tried to
Speaker 3: spend as much time as much of my free time
Speaker 3: camping out and hiking as possible, especially in my late
Speaker 3: teens early twenties. One time, when I was nineteen years old,
Speaker 3: I went on a ninety five mile hike to five
Speaker 3: days between undergrad where I went to University of North
Speaker 3: Georgia for undergrad got a degree in both biology and mathematics.
Speaker 3: After that, I worked in Arizona, Texas, Montana, and Alaska
Speaker 3: in wildlife management type work, and then I decided that
Speaker 3: I'm more of a people person than an animal person.
Speaker 3: So I came back to Georgia to do grad school.
Speaker 3: But as for the Bible, it has unfortunately been a
Speaker 3: fraud relationship between the LGBT community and the Christian Bible.
Speaker 3: I'm going to come out and say that the Bible
Speaker 3: is used to beat up on us routinely. However, the
Speaker 3: people who use the Bible and misuse the Bible to
Speaker 3: beat up on us don't actually know what it says
Speaker 3: the Bible. I have read all of it through and
Speaker 3: through multiple versions. There's the old King James version, which
Speaker 3: the people who hate on us like to use, but
Speaker 3: there's also the new Revised Standard Version, the New International Version,
Speaker 3: and my favorite version, the Young's Literal Translation, which are
Speaker 3: much more accurate in light of the ancient scrolls on
Speaker 3: which the Bible is based. The ancient texts of the
Speaker 3: Bible never at any point mentioned. The concept of eternal
Speaker 3: damnation to hell fire was a concept that was made
Speaker 3: up out of thin air by the Catholic Church and
Speaker 3: picked up and expanded upon by fundamentalist Protestant churches. They
Speaker 3: are perpetuating a false doctrine that God or whoever the
Speaker 3: higher power ruler of the universe is condemns certain groups
Speaker 3: of people to everlasting rejection in a place called hell.
Speaker 3: That is not in the Bible. The Scripture is very liberatory,
Speaker 3: very emancipatory, tells the good news, the good tidings of
Speaker 3: great joy to all people. And how Christ, whom I
Speaker 3: believe to be the Word made flesh, the Bible and
Speaker 3: Jesus I think of, is practically interchangeable. They came to
Speaker 3: seek and save. They came to save the world, and
Speaker 3: not condemn the world, the whole world, not just a
Speaker 3: few chosen privileged people out of the world. So to
Speaker 3: make it simple, I want to say to all LGBT
Speaker 3: people out there, all my sisters, brothers, comrades, everyone in
Speaker 3: my community, that whoever it is your higher power, is God,
Speaker 3: Goddess Universe. You are tenderly and amazingly loved. You are
Speaker 3: not going to hell. No matter what the haters say.
Speaker 3: The haters are wrong. They are as wrong as both
Speaker 3: the Scripture and nature are true. You are loved by God,
Speaker 3: and if there is a life after death, we will
Speaker 3: all be reconciled together in the divine living in joy forever.
Speaker 2: It was beautiful that tiary.
Speaker 1: She is carried away something.
Speaker 2: No, that was great. That was great.
Speaker 3: Well, there are a few things that are worth getting
Speaker 3: carried away on. And I also wanted to bring a
Speaker 3: little bit of good tidings during this time of fear.
Speaker 2: I think we need it. Darlene, do you want to
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about your transition story or Oh?
Speaker 3: Yes, As I said, I went to grad school at
Speaker 3: Georgia Tech between two thousand and four and I graduated
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve. I transitioned in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3: That was in the middle of grad school. That was
Speaker 3: around the time I was taking my PhD qualifier exams,
Speaker 3: and my professors were none too happy with my decision
Speaker 3: to change my appearance, change my name. But I had
Speaker 3: the deans and the college administration on my side. I
Speaker 3: am fairly skilled at working through bureaucracies.
Speaker 2: Which is kind of half the battle as a transperson
Speaker 2: is working through those bureaucracies and getting what we need.
Speaker 3: We must be master diplomats, master negotiators, because that is
Speaker 3: probably our superpower. We can always put on a charm offensive.
Speaker 3: And so two thousand and nine I transitioned or started transitioning.
Speaker 3: It was the middle of grad school. It was rough, however,
Speaker 3: I had the advantage of being a grad student. They
Speaker 3: can't fire a graduate student. Soon afterwards, soon after starting transition,
Speaker 3: I met Monica and it was my life has been
Speaker 3: so much and more stable and happier since.
Speaker 2: So you two have been together now for how many years?
Speaker 1: Two thousand and nine, fourteen, fourteen?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 2: And are you married or yes? Okay? When did you
Speaker 2: guys get married?
Speaker 3: Twenty sixteen?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 3: It was already legal, but a certain orange haired fellow
Speaker 3: won the election to the White House. We were afraid
Speaker 3: that gay marriage would be taken away, so we figured
Speaker 3: we'd run and get married in the courthouse as soon
Speaker 3: as we could. It's sad and scary, but it is
Speaker 3: another one of those things that points to the strength
Speaker 3: and adaptability of our community. We are more than just
Speaker 3: bodies and minds and ideas or ideology. We are a
Speaker 3: natural phenomenon, a force of nature, if you will. Governments
Speaker 3: cannot stamp out a force of nature.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Darlene for those powerful words. We're going to
Speaker 2: take the last break here and we'll be right back.
Speaker 2: And when back, beauties, you make music for transliteration, Is
Speaker 2: that right?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Suh?
Speaker 3: Well, I try to. I'm very shy I'm not into
Speaker 3: the gay bar scene. I'm not into the drag scene.
Speaker 3: Since I think of myself as full time living as female,
Speaker 3: it feels kind of it would feel kind of silly
Speaker 3: to me getting all gussied up in a sequine gown
Speaker 3: and then sing my folkloric, rustic type music in a glitzy,
Speaker 3: glamorous downtown bar. It just it just aesthetically, it just
Speaker 3: doesn't all fit together. So I really haven't really found
Speaker 3: much of a venue in which to perform my songs.
Speaker 3: I like to sing of Goddess of Nature, which is
Speaker 3: another interesting thing about my spirituality. I used to be
Speaker 3: Wickan because I thought, well, that's a good nature centered religion.
Speaker 3: But then I got more into Christian and Jewish scriptures
Speaker 3: and realized that whatever God or goddess or universe out
Speaker 3: there there is accepts us all in the traditional Christian
Speaker 3: notions of condemnation and judgment are wrong. So I had
Speaker 3: no more excuse to turn my back on Judah Christianity.
Speaker 3: So I went back to the tradition I was raised in,
Speaker 3: with some modifications, of course, no more hell and damnation.
Speaker 2: And where you raised Southern Baptist.
Speaker 3: Yes, Southern Baptist slash Methodist. As soon as I got
Speaker 3: my driver's license, I said goodbye to my parents Southern
Speaker 3: Baptist church and went over to the Methodist church down
Speaker 3: the street.
Speaker 2: Gotcha, Yeah, it's a lot more chill there, I'm assuming,
Speaker 2: not as a hell fire and brimstone.
Speaker 3: I much preferred hearing sermons about baseball than hell.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I grew up Catholic and that was about the same.
Speaker 1: I also was raised Catholic. Yeah, so I say that
Speaker 1: I was religiously abused when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm traumatized by I say, I'm traumatized by religion.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we ought to have we ought to have
Speaker 3: a trans group for recovering Catholics.
Speaker 2: I agree. Actually, I know a lot of recovering Catholic
Speaker 2: trans people that have really been through the ringer in
Speaker 2: the church. I'm always interested on the subject of spirituality
Speaker 2: and transness because so much of religion, or mainstream religion
Speaker 2: and people that preach it are preaching an anti trans
Speaker 2: or an anti gay idea of their religion. But I'm
Speaker 2: always delighted to see other trans people embracing their spirituality
Speaker 2: in a new way that is accepting of their identity
Speaker 2: because we really should. I mean, if your religion is
Speaker 2: exclusive to certain people, is it really the kind of
Speaker 2: church you want to be in? You know, like, if
Speaker 2: it's telling you that these people are bad, how does
Speaker 2: your church grow? Exactly? Exactly? All right, listeners, If you
Speaker 2: enjoyed that, then please tune into part two of my
Speaker 2: interview with Monica Helms and her wife Darlene Wagner in
Speaker 2: your feed now, as we talk about their marriage and
Speaker 2: their relationship as too trans woman in the sound. Beauty
Speaker 2: Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced by
Speaker 2: Kurt Garn and Jessica Crinchich, with production assistance from Jennifer Bassett.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Cantor for their support.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman. Beauty Translated
Speaker 2: is proud to be part of the Outspoken network from
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