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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and how the tech are you? So it is time

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Speaker 1: for a classic episode. This episode originally published back on

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Speaker 1: October two thousand fifteen, and it's called the VW Scandal.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about the Volkswagen scandal, specifically the scandal

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Speaker 1: involving Volkswagen installing a system on their cars to cheat

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Speaker 1: emissions tests. Scott Benjamin joined me for this episode and

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Speaker 1: as always, you know it was it was a pleasure

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Speaker 1: having Scott on the show. His knowledge of the vehicular

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Speaker 1: world that was incredibly helpful, and I hope you enjoy

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Speaker 1: this discussion about the very risky and ultimately catastrophic decision

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Speaker 1: that Volkswagen made when it came to trying to trick

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Speaker 1: emissions tests. We are going to talk about the Volkswagen scandal.

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Speaker 1: What happened, Uh, what the actual technical details are. Maybe

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Speaker 1: get some information about diesel versus gasoline cars, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of get an understanding of what exactly happened and

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Speaker 1: what will what what the fallout is looking like so

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Speaker 1: far and spoiler alert, folks, this is an ongoing story.

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Speaker 1: It's not like we have an end where we can

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Speaker 1: say and then they were charged this much money and

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Speaker 1: find no exactly because even now with the fixed information

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Speaker 1: that we we now have that we just got a

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Speaker 1: few days ago, there are still some unanswered questions in

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Speaker 1: this In this fixed plan, they say they've got the plan,

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Speaker 1: but they're not quite exactly telling us what they're gonna

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Speaker 1: do with it. And only that, but they've also recently

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Speaker 1: announced a a different missions possible subterfuge trick thing that's

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Speaker 1: going to be in the two thousands, or was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be in the two thousand sixteen models, which currently

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Speaker 1: are not available here in the United States. They're quarantined

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Speaker 1: at US ports. Right there's a hold on all sales

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Speaker 1: of Volkswagen diesel vehicles from twenty sixteen, So while year

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteens are being held back, you can't get one

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Speaker 1: right now exactly. And I'll talk about what that particular

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Speaker 1: possibly shady technology does. But before we get into that,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to do is kind

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Speaker 1: of lay the groundwork. I usually take the first part

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Speaker 1: of any episode to kind of talk about what what

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Speaker 1: were the conditions that led up to this point? And

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Speaker 1: really to look at this one, I wanted to go

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Speaker 1: way way way back, all right, because I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about the conditions that led up to things like

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Speaker 1: the Clean Air Act. So in order to do that,

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Speaker 1: you have to look at the dependence upon the internal

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Speaker 1: Austrian engine as the primary means of powering vehicles. Now, Scott,

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Speaker 1: I know you are very well aware that electric vehicles

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Speaker 1: proceeded internal combustion vehicles. Their electric cars were around before

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Speaker 1: we had and internal combustion cars. Yes, yes, that's right.

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Speaker 1: They were in fact very prevalent. I mean taxi taxi

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Speaker 1: companies operated on all electric platforms in a certain point

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Speaker 1: in history. You can look at photographs of New York

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Speaker 1: and I don't know, we're talking to turn of the

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Speaker 1: century stuff, the turn of the twentieth century, where you know,

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Speaker 1: it's all every car that you see in the shot

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Speaker 1: is all electric. Um. Yeah, there was a point when

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Speaker 1: there were far more electric vehicles on the road than

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Speaker 1: there were gasoline vehicles. And they were efficient, they were fast.

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Speaker 1: One thing they were not was they didn't have incredibly

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Speaker 1: long driving ranges. But at first that didn't really matter.

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Speaker 1: And the reason it didn't matter is because with the

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Speaker 1: development of the automobile also came the development of the

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Speaker 1: road system in the United States. So here in the US,

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Speaker 1: at least, the place you were most likely to encounter

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Speaker 1: roads that were suitable for driving on were in cities,

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Speaker 1: which meant that your driving range didn't have to be

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Speaker 1: that far. You weren't doing miles and miles of driving

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Speaker 1: every single day. You might be doing a few miles

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Speaker 1: of driving, which was important for electric vehicles because there

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Speaker 1: was no real way to recharge once you hit the road. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, they had the uh, the the original idea.

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Speaker 1: I guess you know where Tesla is getting his battery

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Speaker 1: swap idea from. I'm sorry, Musca, I guess I always

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Speaker 1: refer to him as Tesla, but that's not correct. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he would love that. Actually, while the Tesla,

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Speaker 1: the Tesla models that are proposing that, you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: be these battery swap situations where you can drive up

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Speaker 1: and leave your old battery, pick up a brand new one.

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Speaker 1: So that's a quick change, a relative quick change, and

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Speaker 1: then you're on your way and you have to return

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Speaker 1: for that battery. Uh, you know, it's like a rental

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Speaker 1: almost you have to come back and get it. But uh,

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Speaker 1: that idea is nothing brand new. Of course, these these

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Speaker 1: old taxis that I'm talking about would drive into a

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Speaker 1: station and they would swap the batter rasing their back

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Speaker 1: out on the road to collect the next fair. It

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Speaker 1: had as little downtime as possible, and they ran constantly

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Speaker 1: around the clock. But you know they were constantly getting

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Speaker 1: new batteries as well. Right, And if you look at

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Speaker 1: the development of the roads. Once we got to a

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Speaker 1: point where roads were being built out beyond the cities,

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Speaker 1: where they were connecting different cities together, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people had the desire to travel those roads. The roads

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Speaker 1: were there by necessity, but now people were like, I

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Speaker 1: have an opportunity to go places I couldn't go before.

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Speaker 1: But the problem was the electric vehicles weren't the vehicles

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Speaker 1: that could get them there, because if there was further

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Speaker 1: away than say eighteen miles, you weren't going to reach

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Speaker 1: your destination. So the internal combustion engine had an advantage

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Speaker 1: over that, and that you could have fueling stations along

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Speaker 1: the way. And the other huge advantage was because Henry

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Speaker 1: Ford figured out how to do mass production and through

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Speaker 1: mass production, they were able to dramatically reduce the price

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Speaker 1: of a vehicle. So a an internal combustion engine car

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Speaker 1: cost about a third of what an electric vehicle did.

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Speaker 1: So you have this mass adoption of the internal combustion engine. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is why the reason why I even lay that

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Speaker 1: groundwork is as the United States in particular becomes a

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Speaker 1: car culture, and as more and more people start driving

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Speaker 1: vehicles that use internal combustion, you have more and more

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Speaker 1: emissions from those vehicles, and it begins to accumulate over time.

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Speaker 1: And depending upon the type of fuel you're using, if

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Speaker 1: it's diesel, you get a lot of emissions that contribute

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Speaker 1: to smog. And then we start seeing super smoggy cities

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Speaker 1: in different parts of the country. And by the nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifties and nineteen sixties, you had people concerned about the

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Speaker 1: quality of air. True, and the cities are inherently bad

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Speaker 1: about this because they containue, they capture all this, they

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Speaker 1: get it all in place. And not only that, but

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Speaker 1: you've also got some cities that geographically kind of hold

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Speaker 1: on to that material it's expelled from these vehicles. Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles is the classic example here in the United States,

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Speaker 1: exactly right. Can look at some old photographs of smog

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and you can't even see buildings. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like a heavy, heavy fog that hung over

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Speaker 1: the city and eventually blow away. It would it would

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Speaker 1: go away, but um not long you know, not long

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Speaker 1: after it blows out of there, it would come right

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Speaker 1: back again because there are so many vehicles that were

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Speaker 1: emitting so many um uh you know, bad things for

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Speaker 1: the environment, but the noxious gases, right, yeah, stuff that

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Speaker 1: was bad for the environment. It could cause health issues

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Speaker 1: if if it was really like if it's a really

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Speaker 1: smoggy day to this day, in certain cities, when it's

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Speaker 1: really smoggy, you will hear warnings on the news like

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Speaker 1: limit your amount of time outdoors, especially on hot days

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Speaker 1: where it can be aggravated, because it can end up

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Speaker 1: either causing or aggravating health issues. Sure, and you can

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Speaker 1: see examples of this in China today it's really really heavy.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's still um and in parts of Europe too,

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Speaker 1: you know, exactly right, Yeah, there's you can look at

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Speaker 1: modern day Beijing and see what you know, Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: looked like several decades ago here in the States, right,

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Speaker 1: so by the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, different regions

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Speaker 1: in the US we're looking at ways of improving air

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Speaker 1: quality and limiting pollution. And it was really patchwork, you know,

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Speaker 1: for a long time until about nineteen sixty seven. That's

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Speaker 1: when the US Congress passed the Air Quality Act. Now

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Speaker 1: this was the predecessor to the Clean Air Act. The

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Speaker 1: Air Quality Act had a disadvantage in that it was

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Speaker 1: meant to have kind of a centralized organization headed by

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Speaker 1: the Secretary Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, to designate

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Speaker 1: air quality regions around the United States, and then the

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Speaker 1: states that those air quality regions were within, we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to come up with a plan for pollution control. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, the federal government was saying, here are

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Speaker 1: the areas we have to be worried about, all right, Georgia, California, Texas.

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Speaker 1: You I take care of those places. And this lack

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Speaker 1: of a cohesive approach meant that it was pretty much

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Speaker 1: doomed to not meet its its goals. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: after three years by they had fewer than thirty six

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Speaker 1: regions defined, less than three dozen of the had had

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Speaker 1: been defined at all, and no state had any sort

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Speaker 1: of pollution control uh comprehensive plan. And so the solution

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Speaker 1: then was to bring it all under the control of

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Speaker 1: the U. S. Congress. Right, Yes, that was when the

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Speaker 1: Congress ray convened and started to say, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: this this plan was noble in its intention. We wanted

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Speaker 1: to make sure we weren't imposing the federal will on

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Speaker 1: the states. But it's not working. So that's where the

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Speaker 1: Clean Air Acts to tie all this together so that

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Speaker 1: you understand what's happening at that particular time. This is

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Speaker 1: this is well, well you know the I guess the

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Speaker 1: terment we're gonna throw around here a little bit today

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Speaker 1: maybe as the cafe standards and cafe standards were an

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Speaker 1: act did somewhere around nineteen seventy five. I think the

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Speaker 1: regulations these are set of regulations that were enacted by Congress.

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Speaker 1: And nineteen seventy five you're you're talking about like the

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Speaker 1: tail end of the Arab oil embargo, so you know

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Speaker 1: the fuel crisis. You know where um you see the

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Speaker 1: lines of people and you know the no gas today

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Speaker 1: ration ing and all the rationing with the odd even

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Speaker 1: system and all that. Um, that is that's the environment

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about. Yeah, so this was, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: this was a serious situation for multiple reasons. Also in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, that's when uh, you know, you had the

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Speaker 1: introduction of Earth Day, so you had this growing support

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Speaker 1: for a conservation and uh and and concern about the environment. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In at the same time where you have things like

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Speaker 1: the oil crisis. I mean, all this stuff is coming

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Speaker 1: to a head. So it's all fueling this. And we were, well,

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Speaker 1: we were starting to understand the effects on the human body,

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Speaker 1: just just exactly what that that smog was doing to

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Speaker 1: people that are walking around in the next cloud of

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Speaker 1: of you know, just awful stock x in there and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's weird. We're seeing a lot more people

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Speaker 1: with asthma these days, that kind of stuff, or or

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Speaker 1: bronchitis or things of that nature. Respiratory illnesses. We can't

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Speaker 1: quite put our finger on exactly what's causing it, but

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Speaker 1: it's happening frequently, and and and even if you were

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Speaker 1: to argue that the pollution may not cause it, it it

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Speaker 1: certainly exacerbated it. So uh. This ended up creating the

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Speaker 1: Cleaner Act, which set the national standards for pollution emissions

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Speaker 1: eventually and created a timeline for it, which had to

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Speaker 1: be adjusted multiple times because, as it turned out, the

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Speaker 1: standards were uh. The standards to make the engines operate

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Speaker 1: in what had been determined to be a safe uh

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Speaker 1: set of parameters meant that manufacturers couldn't find a way

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Speaker 1: to meet that and also make a car that worked.

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Speaker 1: So so those those UM, those goals kept getting pushed.

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Speaker 1: There was there were UH they they started to look

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Speaker 1: at pushing the deadline back in seven. They pushed it

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Speaker 1: back again in um mainly because the technology to create

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Speaker 1: something that was able to operate under these standards and

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Speaker 1: do its job was not really an achievable goal for

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Speaker 1: something that wouldn't cost an astronomical amount of money. And

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Speaker 1: you know one thing that I don't think we've even

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Speaker 1: mentioned yet is we say cafe standards. That means corporate

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Speaker 1: average fuel economy, and that's across the line of vehicles,

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Speaker 1: across the whole fleet of vehicles. It's not like one

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Speaker 1: particular vehicle has to meet the standard. It has to

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Speaker 1: be an average of all vehicles produced. And I know

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Speaker 1: there's other there's other stuff that goes into this. There's

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Speaker 1: there's a big vinn diagram that makes this all work.

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Speaker 1: But um, the standards are very very, uh tough to meet.

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Speaker 1: I mean they're they're they're a strict set of stet

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Speaker 1: of standards. That especially the latest round, which was I'm

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Speaker 1: announced and I think it was two thousand eight, all

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Speaker 1: the way through the model year. And when manufacturers see

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Speaker 1: the list of what they have to meet, the goals

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Speaker 1: that they have to meet in order to be in

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Speaker 1: compliance with this agreement to sign this agreement and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we agreed to sell vehicles in the United States, we

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Speaker 1: have to meet these goals. Uh, it is a steep

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Speaker 1: set of standards. And I find it interesting that looking

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Speaker 1: back now you know the agreement, the initial agreement in

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Speaker 1: two thou eight, um, all those it was very stringent,

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Speaker 1: very's very tough. Um. Thirteen major auto manufacturers signed that agreement,

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Speaker 1: you know, a bit begrudgingly. You know that they say, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: we can probably meet these but there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: back and forth. Volkswagen and Mercedes Benz had the biggest

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Speaker 1: objection to it. And I don't know if Volkswagen ever

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Speaker 1: signed that agreement. I I don't know how. I've been

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Speaker 1: looking all day trying to find out if they actually

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Speaker 1: signed the agreement. But I can only find information that

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Speaker 1: goes back into two two thousand eight where they say

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Speaker 1: Volkswagen has as of now not signed this agree. Interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of those things where you can't find any definitive

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Speaker 1: update about whether they did or did not sign up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And the reason was they said that it's UM and

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Speaker 1: i'll just paraphrase this is because they said that UM

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Speaker 1: it places an unfair fairly high burden on passenger cars well,

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Speaker 1: allowing a greater flexibility to let's say a heavier light truck.

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Speaker 1: So we're saying it's not exactly uh, the way that

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Speaker 1: we'd like to see it happen. And it's penalizing to

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Speaker 1: involve things, penalizing people that make UM passenger vehicles with

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Speaker 1: diesel engines. It's not quite fair to them. It's white

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Speaker 1: Mercedes and Volkswagen said, I don't know about this agreement.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna sign it. And I will

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Speaker 1: still dig into that and see if they actually ever did.

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Speaker 1: But around two that was kind of the talk around

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Speaker 1: the circles was why is not why is b W

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Speaker 1: not signing this? And you know it's we'll get more

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Speaker 1: into the diesel stuff in a minute to explain, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the issues that manufacturers run into. Scott Benjamin

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Speaker 1: and I will be back to talk a bit more

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Speaker 1: about the Volkswagen scandal after this quick break. The scandal

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Speaker 1: is pretty awful. That being said, I also have at

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Speaker 1: least some sympathy for the difficulty that engineers space to

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Speaker 1: make things that are satisfying to drive, that operate within

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Speaker 1: the the fuel economy and efficiency that is dictated by

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Speaker 1: the government, as well as work within the emission standards. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you just said the magic three there. That's the three things.

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Speaker 1: It's it's fuel economy, performance and emissions and you can

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Speaker 1: it's have you ever heard the phrase you can have

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Speaker 1: it done quickly, you can have it done well, or

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Speaker 1: you could have it done cheaply. You can pick two

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Speaker 1: out of the three. Yeah, yeah, and you're never gonna

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Speaker 1: find all three. R Well, somehow folks like I can

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Speaker 1: managed to do all three with their diesel engines back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand. Oh wow, it was magical too, as

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Speaker 1: it turns out. But before we jump ahead to that

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Speaker 1: a little bit more, just to kind of cover our bases, uh,

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Speaker 1: the Environmental Protection Agency has given been given a lot

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Speaker 1: of control as well. When it comes to the emission standards,

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Speaker 1: they were able to establish the National Ambient air Quality

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Speaker 1: Standards or in a a Q snacks. I gotta say,

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Speaker 1: that's a new one to me. Yeah, that's the one

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Speaker 1: that where the deadline had been extended a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: like where where it was clear the states could not

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Speaker 1: meet that deadline. So I mean, what do you do, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you what's the well? I guess what's the fine?

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Speaker 1: And how do you define how much each place pays?

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Speaker 1: I mean based on what the offense is. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: measure that again. And and you know, because pollution also

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Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't necessarily obeyed geography, right. You could have pollution

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Speaker 1: that is produced in one place, but it's another place

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Speaker 1: that's dealing with it. Uh. And in states where you

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Speaker 1: have big cities that are close to the border, it

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Speaker 1: may be that one city is actually producing the pollution,

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Speaker 1: but the other city is the one that's really suffering

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Speaker 1: from it. Dumping into rivers is a great example. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's stuff like that where it flows downstream, Yeah exactly,

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Speaker 1: or trucked into a different region. Just simple air pattern exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know, weather patterns can push it so, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they put the deadlines a couple of times. It made

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Speaker 1: me think of like if you're if you're a parent

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Speaker 1: of a kid and you say, I need you to

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Speaker 1: pick up all these toys before five o'clock and you're

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Speaker 1: coming there and it's all the toys aren't picked up,

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking, well, all right, you need to pick

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Speaker 1: up all these toys before six o'clock because you're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't really want to punish you, but I really

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Speaker 1: do want you to pick up these toys where it's done.

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Speaker 1: But they've just thrown them in their brother's closet. Yeah, see,

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Speaker 1: pushing it down the road. Yeah, for me, it was

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Speaker 1: it was all just shoving it into the closet like

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Speaker 1: that's that. If it's out of sight, that means it's clean. Um.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things about the Clean Air Act

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Speaker 1: is that it it did have standards for what kinds

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Speaker 1: of emissions and how much how many you know, types

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Speaker 1: of emissions could be created by a car. Carbon dioxide,

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Speaker 1: by the way, non that list carbon dioxide, didn't. You know?

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Speaker 1: That's the greenhouse gas and it's something that we're concerned about,

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Speaker 1: but not on the list of the emissions that the

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Speaker 1: Clean Air Act was concerned with. Instead, it was things

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Speaker 1: like carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide, and hydrocarbon emissions greenhouse gasses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: except for carbon dioxide. That was the only one that

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Speaker 1: was kind of left out. But yeah, these are all

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gasses. Yeah. And and diesel in particular is pretty

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Speaker 1: bad about um nitrogen oxides, and that's the kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff that contributes to smog uh formation. Yeah. You often

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Speaker 1: see it written as like n O X or yes

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Speaker 1: and people yea, yeah, hard knocks in that case. Uh

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Speaker 1: So the standards of the emission centers themselves. When I

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Speaker 1: say standard, it sounds like I could easily quote you,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's how much uh nitrogen oxide the car

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Speaker 1: is allowed to emit over a given amount of time.

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Speaker 1: Not that simple. It all depends on the type of vehicle,

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Speaker 1: like you were saying, between light trucks and passenger cars

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Speaker 1: for example, or the age of the vehicle that that

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Speaker 1: plays a factor as well. Um So, and also whether

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Speaker 1: it's a gasoline powered vehicle or a diesel powered vehicle,

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Speaker 1: because the emissions will be different depending upon those. So

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Speaker 1: it's a little complicated, and I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: you know, spouting off specific numbers because it's just not

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Speaker 1: there's no point to it. A different podcast. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's the that's the the incredibly tiny standards podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to get down to that, but play to

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Speaker 1: go to sleep, yes evening, and I don't mind if

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Speaker 1: you guys fall asleep to me. I don't do the

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Speaker 1: listener mail thing anymore, so at least you're not gonna

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Speaker 1: be woken up by a clason. Um So, like we said,

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Speaker 1: the performance, the energy efficiency or fuel efficiency, I should say,

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Speaker 1: and the emissions are those three things, and it is

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Speaker 1: very hard to meet the expectations of all three of

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Speaker 1: those at the same time because um As it turns out,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the emissions control mechanisms have an effect

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Speaker 1: on performance. Um they have an effect on and they

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Speaker 1: can have an effect on fuel efficiency. For example, it's

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Speaker 1: correlation is kind of a weird word, but there's an

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Speaker 1: association between a very fuel efficient diesel engine and high

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Speaker 1: production of nitrogen oxide. So you if you're an auto manufacturer,

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Speaker 1: you have to make an engine to make your cargo,

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Speaker 1: and you're using you know you want it to be

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Speaker 1: a diesel powered engine. You have specific standards, you have

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Speaker 1: to meet for fuel efficiency, that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: you've got to you know, one of the boxes you

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Speaker 1: have to check off. But you also have standards you

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Speaker 1: have to meet for emissions. That's the other box you've

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Speaker 1: got to check off. And in this relationship, as one

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Speaker 1: goes up, the other goes down in the in the

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Speaker 1: bad way, right Like, as one improves, the other one

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Speaker 1: is getting worse. So how do you balance that out?

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Speaker 1: Plus make sure that the car performs in such a

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Speaker 1: way that it's not just drivable, but people want to

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Speaker 1: drive that a consumer would actually want to drive that vehicle.

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Speaker 1: Because when you start playing around with these three things

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Speaker 1: that you've mentioned, Um, I'll argue that consumers are and

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Speaker 1: I know that this is I guess maybe controversial, and

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Speaker 1: that you know, some people say, no, that's what I

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Speaker 1: care about most. He's always gonna be someone like that.

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Speaker 1: But um I would say that most people care less

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Speaker 1: about the actual emissions of the vehicle than they do

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Speaker 1: about the fuel economy and the way that the car performs.

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Speaker 1: Are fuels and dry, right, because the fuel efficiency is

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Speaker 1: going to impact your wallet, right, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: how much fuel you're gonna have to buy to get

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Speaker 1: your car to go from place to place and performance

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Speaker 1: obviously the way the car feels emissions. I would argue

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Speaker 1: for most people, they want the emissions to be at

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Speaker 1: a level that is acceptable for the region therein Well

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that, and I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to you know, spark any kind of big controversy

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Speaker 1: or anything. But what I'm saying is that when you

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Speaker 1: buy a new vehicle off the lot, you assume that

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Speaker 1: it's going to be compliant with current CAFE or not CAFE,

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Speaker 1: but rather emission standards in that area and in the

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Speaker 1: U S in general. It's going to pass. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be a clean vehicle, and it wouldn't be sold

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Speaker 1: as a new car otherwise it wouldn't be allowed to

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Speaker 1: Well no, but I mean you pick up, you know,

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Speaker 1: and a seven year old used cars, you take it

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Speaker 1: in for the emissions test, you know, as most people

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Speaker 1: have to do now around big cities at least, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, yearly before you get the renewal of your

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Speaker 1: tags or whatever. Um, there's always that chance that they're

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Speaker 1: gonna say, sorry, you're just over on on this, and

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Speaker 1: um here's the recommended fix. You've got thirty days to

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Speaker 1: make that fix. Otherwise you're not allowed to drive this

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Speaker 1: vehicle on Georgia Highways Georgia Rhodes and UH and And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think there's limits to that too. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can spend a certain dollar amount on the fixes

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Speaker 1: that I think you're limited, Like you don't have to

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Speaker 1: spend ten thousand dollars to get your car compliant with whatever,

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Speaker 1: but but you might have to spend you know, a

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Speaker 1: minimum or a maximum rather of three dollars or whatever

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Speaker 1: it happens to be. I don't know the number, but

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to go crazy, you know, to

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Speaker 1: have to make to make the car twice as expensive

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Speaker 1: as I find it's all very funny. I find the

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Speaker 1: whole emissions game kind of funny. Well, yeah, because it's

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Speaker 1: it's a balance between what is supposed to be environmentally responsible,

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Speaker 1: what is supposed to cause the least amount of harmful

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Speaker 1: effect on other people, but also not supposed to break

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Speaker 1: the bank. Yeah I know, but but do you see

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Though? And I find this funny and

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Speaker 1: we can talk about this maybe in another podcast. I

430
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: don't know, it seems to fit here a little bit,

431
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: But it's funny that if the car doesn't pass, they say, well,

432
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: you can spend three on it, and if it doesn't

433
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: pass again, we'll just kind of give you okay for

434
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: this year. It's like we're we're accepting that, you know,

435
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: it's still not compliant with our with our rules and regulations.

436
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: And then also your car can age out of this

437
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: so that after ten years or fifteen years or whatever

438
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: happens to me, I think it's ten, you don't have

439
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: to have that car emissions tested anymore to get your tags.

440
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: And that seems kind of stilly to me too, because

441
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: at that point, most of that stuff on your cars

442
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: where and out to the point where it's going to

443
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: probably not pass anyways. Right, the emissions are gonna be alright,

444
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: it's going to be beyond the emission standard. And those

445
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: are the heavy polluters, those are the ones that you know,

446
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: do admit more. So maybe they're thinking at that point

447
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: that you're not driving it as heavily as I don't know.

448
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I really when I look at this

449
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: from several different angles, the emissions testing thing, I it's

450
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: really confusing. Well, I mean, and when we get into

451
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: the Volkswagen stuff in particular, it gets a little confusing

452
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: because ultimately you hear the news from the government saying,

453
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: all right, if you own Volkswagen, don't worry, you're not

454
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: We're not going to penalize you for that because it's

455
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: not your fault. So you're like, well, but it's still

456
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: producing the pollution. Let's say that. I'll say I drove

457
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: a Fiat from I don't know, I'm gonna make this

458
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: up ten years ago or seven years ago, so it

459
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: still has to be emissions compliant. If that car doesn't pass,

460
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: like I just said, if it doesn't pass emissions, you

461
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: have thirty days to make the fixes. Otherwise you're not

462
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: legally allowed to drive that car. So they're saying, we're

463
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: giving all these Volkswagen vehicles that are on the road

464
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: right now that we know will pass the test, but

465
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: they're passing it. They're cheating, they're cheating, but we know

466
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: that they're not compliant, but we're allowing you the time

467
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: until Volkswagen comes back with a fix. So there's gonna

468
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: be like this year or two years maybe where they

469
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: know what's happening. And again another confusing all in this, Yeah,

470
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 1: because you know it's like they're giving a free pass. Yeah,

471
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: and and I have some sympathy for for the government

472
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: side of this, because how do you deal with this otherwise?

473
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: Do you just tell I mean, you can't go and

474
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: confiscate everyone's vehicle. You can't take the keys from everybody's

475
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: car and say this is part until comes up with fix. Congratulations,

476
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: you've spent all that money on something that you can't use.

477
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: You can't. Yeah, it's it's a it's a complicated situation.

478
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: We've got more to say in this classic episode of

479
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: tech Stuff after these quick messages, we talked about emissions.

480
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: How do cars control emissions in the first place? Where

481
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: the systems in a car, specifically a diesel engine car

482
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: that are are designed in order to reduce emissions of

483
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: this nitro nitrogen oxide in particular, but other stuff as well.

484
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: And there are lots of things, um that are part

485
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: of this. There is their combustion chambers that have been

486
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: designed so that they can process the fuel better before

487
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: it gets released, or burn it off in a way

488
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: where you're not gonna have nitrogen oxide anymore as complete

489
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: it burn as possible. Yeah, there are some that are

490
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: designed to use catalysts that will make the nitrogen oxide

491
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: break apart. So as you get nitrogen and oxygen, which

492
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: that's there's no problem. There are Our atmosphere is primarily nitrogen. Sure,

493
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: and you're talking right now, you're talking about after after

494
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: it's gone through combustions, right, Yeah, there are some that

495
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: are in the combustion phase too, like just the combustion

496
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 1: chamber and fuel systems. Lube oil consumption can have an

497
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: effect to if you if you design your car so

498
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: that it's much more efficient with that or your engine

499
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: I should say, if it's much more efficient than that.

500
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: But there's also like particulate filters on the on the

501
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: end of it, um, the catalysts which can break up

502
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: the nitrogen oxide into nitrogen and oxygen. You're talking about

503
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: the the urea injection systems, which further burns the soot,

504
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: and so did the particular filters those are those are

505
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: kind of neat particular filters are interesting to maybe because

506
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: when I was with Chrysler doing U technical training, you know,

507
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: the service people, um, the technicians there rather um we

508
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: were talking about Dodge Ram pickup trucks that had a

509
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: diesel particular filter that would regenerate itself. So some of

510
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: these are single use where they fill up. And one

511
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: of the byproducts of burning diesel fuel is soot. You

512
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: get a lot, there's a lot of soot that's left over,

513
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: and it's almost like an like an ash type product.

514
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: And you don't see ash really coming out of the

515
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: tailpipe of of diesel powered vehicles. So where does it

516
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: all go. Well, goes to these big filters and they're

517
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: called particular filters as you said, and the single use ones.

518
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: That's pretty simple. I mean, the idea is that it

519
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: just fills up and eventually if they get it emptied

520
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: or replaced, kind of like a filter on a on

521
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 1: a like an air conditioning system. That's relatively rare now

522
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: I mean relatively there's still out there. But the ones

523
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: that really you're interesting to me. And oh the other

524
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: the other version of this would be the urea injection,

525
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: which further burned allows it to be further burned. Um,

526
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: and you have to refill that system every let's say,

527
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: every ten thousand miles or I think every five thousand miles,

528
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: and that's part of the fix will talk about. But um,

529
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: the regenerative ones, these things heat up to something like

530
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, six hundred degrees celsius or twelve hundred degrees celsius.

531
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: It gets really really hot, and it's it's hot enough

532
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: to burn soot. And when it happens is very interesting.

533
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: It happens on the highway when you're driving, because I mean,

534
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: imagine something underneath your vehicle that heats up to the

535
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: point where it's twelve hundred degrees celsius. If you were

536
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: parked on you know, grass like dry grass somewhere, it

537
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,239
Speaker 1: would ignite the grass below an asphalt. You would melt it.

538
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: If you're standing next to it, I mean it would

539
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: it would burn your leg. And it's a it's a hot,

540
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: hot thing. I mean that's that's twice the temperature of

541
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: a of a pizza oven. Um, It's it's really really hot.

542
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: And it was interesting to see how they developed a

543
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: way to decide exactly when it happens. And it's all

544
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 1: electronically controlled. It's all very precise in the way they

545
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: do it. And it has to be, obviously, because if

546
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: it if it weren't, it wouldn't be safe for anybody

547
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: you put in your garage, and if it's still doing

548
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: this regenerative thing, your house is up in flames. Yeah,

549
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: it's something we generally considered to be a bad thing.

550
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: That would be so they had to be very careful

551
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: about how they designed it, but also very precise. And

552
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: that's and that shows you how um carefully they can

553
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: decide when things happen electronically in your car. So just

554
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: one example, I guess. Yeah, And so the the these

555
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: systems are obviously the things that allow a diesel well

556
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: really any any engine for cars, but we're specifically focused

557
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: on diesel. These are the sort of things that allow

558
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: diesel engines to operate within those emission standard parameters. But

559
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: they do have an effect on fuel efficiency and on

560
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: and really on performance. And so here's where we get

561
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: into what Volkswagen did and where the scandal comes in.

562
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: So you've mentioned emission testing. Yeah, that's something that if

563
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: you are living in certain cities, you have to go

564
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: through before you can go and get your tags renewed

565
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: for the next year. I remember growing up in rural

566
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: Georgia that was not a thing. I didn't know anything

567
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: about it until I moved here to Atlanta and I

568
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: saw these kind of tent like structures outside of usually

569
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: you know, like a like a mechanics or something. You

570
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: see and say emission testing bucks or whatever it is,

571
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: and I kept thinking like, well, what's that for. And

572
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: it wasn't until we didn't own a car at first,

573
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: to me and my wife, and when we finally got

574
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: one and we found out like, oh, okay, that makes

575
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: sense because you're in a you're in a dense populated

576
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: area where there are a lot of people, especially in Atlanta,

577
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: which is a very car centric city, it makes sense

578
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: for it to be there. But just I had never

579
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: encountered it before. That's me every time it's your birthday

580
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: because you're renewing your tags, so there's you know, a

581
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: hundred bucks right there they have to pay out or whatever,

582
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: and then they hit you with another twenty dollars for

583
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: emissions if you car fits that certain parameter those know

584
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: the year or whatever. You know, it's it all depends

585
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: on like what year you bought the car and what

586
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: model it was, and and how how old is it

587
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. Um, I always feel

588
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: like I need a degree to figure out whether or

589
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: not you get get the emissions testing. You know, it's

590
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: even more frustrated to me. I live. I live in

591
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: an extreme northern part of this county that the Atlanta

592
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: is in it's an odd shaped county, so it's way

593
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: way far away. It's like thirty miles away, not I

594
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: mean not even half a mile down the road is

595
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: the next county where they don't do emission They don't

596
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: do emissions testing, So I'm not even anywhere near the city,

597
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: but i still have to do this emissions teston in

598
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: the county. Yeah, exactly. Well, uh so what was going

599
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: on with the Volkswagen one was that the car quote

600
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: unquote new when it was being tested, and it would

601
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: turn on all these emissions controls, essentially shutting out off

602
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: emissions for the effectively shutting off emissions for the duration

603
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: of the test, so that during the test phase, this

604
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: clean diesel engine, which is the way it was marketed

605
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: as clean diesel vehicles, was remarkable. It had performance, it

606
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: had it was meeting the emission standard, it had fuel economy.

607
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: This was a miracle machine. Yeah, and other manufacturers at

608
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: the time we're kind of marveling and how Volkswagen had

609
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: done it. Now, Volkswagen have been in the diesel game

610
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: for a long time, so they thought, well, this is

611
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: superior German engineering. They've got some kind of idea of

612
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: how this works, and we just we just can't seem

613
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: to get the performance angle out of this whole thing.

614
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: You know, we can do the emissions, we can do

615
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: the fuel economy. We can't do the performance where we

616
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: can do It's that it's that old you can do

617
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: you know, pick two of those things. But they were

618
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: all scratching their heads like, well, how is Volkswagen doing this?

619
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: And it turns out this this You hear the term

620
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: defeat device, and a lot of people will picture a

621
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: physical device you could hold in your hands, like something

622
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: something you would shove inside the exhaust pipe or something. Yeah,

623
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: so this term defeat device is a little bit deceptive

624
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: and that it's it's really just um, it's a software

625
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: code and that's all it is. It's a very cleverly

626
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: written line of so incredibly clever because you know, my

627
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: first my first thought when I heard about the scandal

628
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: that they had installed software that would defeat the emissions

629
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: testing by by incorporating the emissions controls during the test

630
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: and then turning them off afterwards, so you get that

631
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: fuel efficiency and performance back, but you're emitting much more pollution.

632
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: At that time, my first reaction was, I wonder if

633
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: it's just when they connect the computer system. Like it

634
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: it it uh, it detects when the computer system gets

635
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: connected to it. No, it's way more subtle than that. Well,

636
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: because there are other situations where you would use that,

637
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: and we knew that. They knew that. You know, people

638
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: have their own home diagnostic tools that can plug in.

639
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: We're talking about the the O B D two ports,

640
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: the diagnostic ports on the driver's side, and it's it's

641
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: it goes far deeper than that because it takes into

642
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: account the wheel speed, to account the position of the

643
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: steering wheel. Everything is read. You know, your your car

644
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: is talking all the time to other models, are talking

645
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: to other modules and figuring out what's going on. And

646
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: they determined that they knew exactly the the parameters that

647
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: were set because these are government standards that are in

648
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: place for a vehicle emissions test and they're the same everywhere.

649
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: So it's very very easy to say, when this condition

650
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: is met, then you do this, and when this has meant,

651
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: you do that, and if these two things are met,

652
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: then you do this. And it's so it's so simple

653
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: for them to cheat this way. I don't know why

654
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: other people haven't tried this in the past. If well,

655
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,439
Speaker 1: maybe they have as possible, but this was one where

656
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: where it was found out. Yeah, it was. It's like

657
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: you said, it's very simple. It's an if then right,

658
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: if conditions are equivalent to a testing situation, then engage

659
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the emission controls like that. That's that's basic computer programming,

660
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: is the if then statement. And they obviously we're oversimplifying

661
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: for the purposes of this discussion, and but that's that's

662
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: the basic model they followed, which is incredibly subversive and

663
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: brilliant at the same time. Yeah, I mean there could

664
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: I don't know how many parameters they've got here, but

665
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: there could be ten different indicators that the vehicle is

666
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: an emissions testing at deadpoint, and and then you react

667
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: this way. But then once you unplug all that and

668
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: you're on your way, we don't want that. We don't

669
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: want to react that way because the driver will say,

670
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, I went in for emissions testing in the

671
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: car feels like it's broken wrong, it's not responding the

672
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: way it should. I'm not getting the fuel economy that

673
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: I was getting before. Why do you guys do to

674
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: my car? So one of the two thousand sixteen thing

675
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: that I was mentioning before Volkswagen has revealed that it

676
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: has an emission control system that might only engage during tests.

677
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: I got the feeling like this the way it's been reported,

678
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: it sounds like someone who's already been caught doing something

679
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: wrong and then when they are directly asked, hey, did

680
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: you also do this, like it might be well, not

681
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: against the rules. It plays right into why would they

682
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: build models any different than they did the twenty teens,

683
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 1: because fourteens and all the way back to oh eight,

684
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: because they knew what worked and they hadn't been caught

685
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 1: at that point yet. They had already manufactured those cars. Yeah,

686
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: and the two thousand sixteen one has the additional element

687
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: and that it heats up a pollution control catalyst. And

688
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I was talking about, you know,

689
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: separting out the nitrogen and oxygen, the nitro engine oxide

690
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: into nitrogen and oxygen. That's what the twenty sixteen models have. Yeah,

691
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: they had installed lean Knox traps and in certain vehicles

692
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: and in other vehicles, you know, like after two thousand

693
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: twelve they installed something that called the selective catalytic reduction systems,

694
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: and uh in you know, I guess that's the one

695
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: with the liquid urea solution that was sprayed into it.

696
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a much more complex system than

697
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: the Lean Knox traps. But um that that him self

698
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: is gonna be a problem for Volkswagen because they have

699
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: to deal with all these different vehicles in different ways.

700
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: They need different things for the fix and I can

701
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: outline that later. Yeah, just a quick example, if you

702
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: if you look up the news that you hear that

703
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: like some of the models of the Facade were had

704
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: twenty times the the allotted you know, the allowable amount

705
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: of emissions when it was in its normal driving operation

706
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: and I'm outside of the emissions right, and the Jetta

707
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: was even worse. It could be between fifteen and thirty

708
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: five times. Some of them were up to forty times

709
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: the allowed amount of emissions of nitrogen ox eyed here,

710
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess that those are the ones that were

711
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: just the lean the Lean Knox traps equipped ones, because

712
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: that's kind of other manufacturers We're saying, how can you

713
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: get these these standing Heck, can you meet these standards

714
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: with just a Lean Knox trap. It's there's just no way.

715
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: We can't. We can't do it. How are you doing it? Yeah?

716
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: That was the magic. Where's the lepre con inside your

717
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: engine that's allowing this to happen? So here's a fun fact.

718
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: Uh did you did you run across the name of

719
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: the engineer who who is credited as discovering this. He's

720
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: got a perfect name, all right. So it's Volkswagen that

721
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: has been called out on this. The name of the

722
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: engineer U S engineer whose discovery essentially led to the

723
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: unveiling of the scandal is John German. No way, really,

724
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: he's He's German the engineer, but not a German engineer. Yeah.

725
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: And this is a private agency, right yeah, Actually he was. Um,

726
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: so he also works not just with engineering, but he

727
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: works with a uh kind of an environmental protection sort

728
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: of organization. But he's not with the US government. No, no,

729
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: he was not. Uh And so originally, in fact, he

730
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: handed that information over to the US government. So originally

731
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: what he was doing was purely he didn't suspect Volkswagen

732
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: of doing anything hinky. What he was doing was he

733
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: was looking at the nitrogen oxide emissions NOx emissions in

734
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: Europe and seeing how how out of control they were

735
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: in certain regions, and then looking at the data for

736
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: the United States and saying, well, I mean, obviously there's

737
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: a difference between the number of diesel vehicles on the

738
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: road in Europe and those in the US. He was saying,

739
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: but he was saying, well, you know, there's there's something

740
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: clearly happening over here in the US, like the Volkswagen

741
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: cars are amazing. Uh, maybe we can look into the

742
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: engineering of the Volkswagen cars and give advice to European

743
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: automakers to help out Europe. So it was it was

744
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: purely in an approach to help someone else out that

745
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: he even started looking into this. But he's then essentially

746
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: what he did was he was measuring these levels on

747
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: the road as like a highway travel or city travel

748
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: versus in a lab environment. Yes, he specifically started looking

749
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: at how the cars were performing in various environments and

750
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: discovered there were vast inconsistencies, so real world situations versus

751
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: lab situations exactly as dramatically well in this case, well,

752
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: extremely different in the case of Volkswagen in particular. Yes,

753
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: and so at this point he's saying, uh, something is

754
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: really about this, and was tempted to even perhaps call

755
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: it a defeat device. At that stage, but he did not.

756
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: He instead handed the data over to the e p

757
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: A and as a courtesy, handed a report over to

758
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: Volkswagen as well in two thousand fourteen. May two thousand fourteen. Yeah,

759
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: so it's been more than a year since this data

760
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: got to Volkswagen, and Germans says the reason he sent

761
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: it to Volkswagen was because perhaps it was legitimate oversight,

762
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: something like maybe it was a fault in part of

763
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: the engineering that could be addressed and fixed, that there

764
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: might be an honest mistake here. And you know, he

765
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: was giving them a huge benefit of the doubts. Sure,

766
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: he might even be thinking that it's in this one

767
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: particular line of vehicles, maybe there's a problem with that,

768
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: or maybe it's a it's very it could be very

769
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: very simple for you to change this. But he had

770
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: no idea that this was the tip of the iceberg. Right,

771
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: So the e p A starts looking into it, and

772
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: it wasn't until September of this year, twenty fifteen that

773
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: Volkswagen essentially came out and said, you got us, Oh yeah,

774
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: you know what, I Okay, they've known about it for

775
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: a while. You you do have to give them some

776
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: some credit, uh to come right out and say like, yeah,

777
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: you you got us, You've got usparre and square out.

778
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: They they said that due to some rogue software developers,

779
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: like no one has come out to the point in

780
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: Volkswagen to say this was a decision like they're not

781
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: willing to say this decision goes all the way to

782
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: the top. Yeah, it's more like someone lowered down made

783
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: this decision without our our knowledge, and that's and we're

784
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: suffering for. Although the top guy did step down. Yes, yeah,

785
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: so I mean it's uh, it's it's definitely affected uh,

786
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: their corporate structure as well. Yes, in the last month,

787
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: it'll and it will continue to affect them heavily in

788
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: the oncoming months. Yeah. Yeah, this is so far reaching.

789
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: I mean I I sometimes sit around, like at my desk,

790
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like just the the sheer volume of

791
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: vehicles not only here in the United States but worldwide

792
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: vehicles or so, Yeah, we have what half a million

793
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: here and it's a big deal here. I should imagine

794
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: what it's like over there, What's what they're going through

795
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: over there. But I just think about like the pure

796
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: logistics of this whole thing. To be with some of

797
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: the fixes that they're proposing and all that, and the

798
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: time involved and the money involved, and you know, are

799
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: they you know, the bigger questions are they going to

800
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: come back from this? Are they gonna what's this gonna

801
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: do to Diesel's reputation? Not only not only here but worldwide?

802
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody kind of bought into this. It's you know,

803
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: we get a listen and we get listener mail all

804
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: the time from listeners in Europe that prior to this,

805
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: we're saying, why aren't you guys on Diesel like we

806
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: are over here in Europe? Why aren't you Why aren't

807
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: you doing that? And I mean it's one of those

808
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: things where you look at it and you think it's

809
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: a lie that we want to believe. Right. It's a

810
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: convenient lie because it gives us the feeling that we're

811
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: not contributing to pollution and we're getting the performance we

812
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: want out of our vehicles and the fuel economy we

813
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: want out of our vehicles. If you tell me that lie,

814
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: I am probably inclined to believe it because it's to everyone.

815
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: It seems to be to everyone's benefit until you strip

816
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: away the lie and realize how much pollution is actually

817
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: being dumped out there. A lot of people felt really

818
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: good about driving you know, clean diesel engines. I mean,

819
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: it's right there in the name clean Diesel. So people

820
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: felt really good about going to VW and picking up

821
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: a you know, t D I equipped engine, t D

822
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: equipped vehicle and being happy about that, Like I'm doing

823
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: my part. Yeah, Like I'm being responsible adult. I'm not

824
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 1: getting one of those gas guzzlers that's eating up gasoline

825
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: and pouring out tons of carbon monoxide out into the atmosphere.

826
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. And according to the Guardian, this is something

827
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: you guys covered on Scott You were on an episode

828
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: of Forward Thinking with Joe and Lauren while I was

829
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: out on vacation and talked about this. But the Guardian

830
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: estimated that it could have been around nine almost nine

831
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: fifty thousand metric tons of nitrous oxide or nitrogen oxide

832
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: emissions every year that this was this technology was out there.

833
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: The numbers are just immense. I mean, it's it's all

834
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: of this, this whole thing, And when you go back

835
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: all the way to the two thousand eight model, you're

836
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: you thinking that, well, this has been happening for seven years,

837
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: for eight years now at this point, I guess model years. Um,

838
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 1: it's just such a big, big problem. It's so enormous

839
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: in all aspects. I really am having a hard time

840
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: seeing how Volkswagen recovers from this. Right. And and as

841
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: we pointed out earlier, if you already have one of

842
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: these vehicles, then until there is a fix, you're going

843
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: to continue to contribute to that that pollution. And it's

844
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: not because you're a bad person. It's because the car itself,

845
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: the way it's designed. That's that's just how it works.

846
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean to put it bluntly, you were sold a lie,

847
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: and you bought that lie. But you know why. It

848
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: wasn't your fault. The government bought that lie too, because

849
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: because the wool was pulled over its eyes. Yeah, I

850
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: just kind of come clean. I drive a Volkswagen, but

851
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: it's not a diesel. I think I mentioned that in

852
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: the Forward Thinking episode two. And I love it. I mean,

853
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: I have it's a great engine, it's a lot of fun.

854
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: It's a gasoline burning engine. So I'm not involved in

855
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: all this. And I gotta say that when I when

856
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: I see a Volkswagon on the road, now, I consciously

857
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: look to the lower right corner of the back end

858
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: of the vehicle, and I try to see if it's

859
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: a t D I equipped and a t D equipped vehicle,

860
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: and I just think, like, what is that person going

861
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: through right now? They're dealing with you know, they bought

862
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: a car that they thought was you know all the

863
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: things we said, and it's not. Uh, they're going to

864
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: have to deal with the dealership very soon about you know,

865
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: what they're going to do to fix this and how

866
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: they're gonna do it. Um, it depends on what make

867
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: and model you have, what they're gonna do, how they're

868
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: gonna handle it. Um. It's not gonna cost you anything

869
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: except it is going to be very very inconvenient for

870
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: you in the near future. And do you continue to

871
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: trust that manufacturer with with those people? Buy another Volkswagen

872
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: when all this is said and done. Yeah, when when

873
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: the two thousand seventeen models, presumably assuming that Volkswagen is

874
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: able to produce them, when they come out, would they

875
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: buy a diesel engine two thousand seventeen Volkswagen And well,

876
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: other people that maybe we're kind of on the fence

877
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: about Volkswagon, you know, they were considering it up until

878
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 1: this point, or maybe someone just narrowly missed buying one,

879
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: or just bought one the day the thing that this

880
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: scandal broke. What do they do? I mean, there's so

881
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: many individual situations that I'm really curious about right now,

882
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: and it ripples out so far. So we've heard the

883
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: term that that they could be facing billions of dollars

884
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: in fines, and in fact, early on in this story

885
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: it was said that Volkswagen had already set aside like

886
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: seven point three billion dollars for fines. Right now, the

887
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: Guardian estimates that the amount of fines may accumulate to

888
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: around eighteen billion dollars. Now that matches what I heard initially.

889
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: The very first number I heard was like eighteen points

890
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: seven billion dollars in d p A finds strictly here

891
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: for the United States. Now, going beyond that, there's gonna

892
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: be fines to pay elsewhere well, because they have agreements

893
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: with European nations as well. So I don't know how

894
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: you come back from something like this, I really don't.

895
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you can save, you can put money away,

896
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: and they you know, they have profitable quarters. I'm sure

897
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: that you know. I haven't looked at the numbers of

898
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: how much they make per quarter up to this point.

899
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: But there's no way they're squirreling all that. Wait, they're

900
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: using it for new products. They're putting it back into

901
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: the business. Of course, they desperately need another love Bug movie.

902
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it high. Yeah. Well, if you wonder

903
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: now if Disney will ever show The love Bug ever

904
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: again after this? Uh, that was not involved. No, no, no,

905
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: are you trying to implicate Lindsay Lohan in this. I'm

906
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: talking about the new one. I'm going back to the

907
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: original Fred Murray because I loved the original. I love that.

908
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: It was fantastic film. I love it. Scott and I

909
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: have a few more things to say about the Volkswagen

910
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: scandal after this commercial break. One of the other things

911
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention, though, if you're talking about the

912
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: ripple effect, this gets super crazy. This could contribute to

913
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: a severe economic downturn in Europe for multiple reasons. UM.

914
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: One is that the confidence of a major European manufacturer

915
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: has gone into sharp decline for obvious reasons UM, and

916
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: it has prompted several strategists equity strategists over at Bloomberg

917
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: to readjust what their predictions were for the stocks Europe

918
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: six hundred index and they have adjusted it lower than

919
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: what they had predicted. And because of Volkswagen's association with

920
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: China as well and the Chinese markets which are very uncertain,

921
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 1: this whole mess could get really ugly from an economic standpoint,

922
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: which I'm not gonna get into because this is not

923
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: an economics podcast and I am in no way qualified

924
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: to talk about that that aspect of it. But it's

925
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: kind of like when you start pulling back and pulling

926
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: back and pulling back, you keep asking, am I am

927
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: I back far enough? Am I seeing the full picture? Yet?

928
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: You know? Just just to tell you that, this last weekend,

929
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: I was out with a couple of friends, my wife

930
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: and I, and uh, this couple that we were out

931
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: with said that they were um buying Volkswagen stock right

932
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 1: now because it's at a low point. And I was thinking,

933
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, is that a good move or is

934
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: that a bad move? And I was thinking at the moment,

935
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, that's probably a good move

936
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: because it's probably gonna come back. It's probably gonna rebound

937
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: and everything's gonna be fine. But the more I hear

938
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: about this, the last couple of weeks that I've been

939
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 1: you know, studying this, and especially this last week when

940
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: the enormity of this situation is really just finally hit

941
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: me how big this is. I don't really know. I

942
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: don't know if that is a good investment or not. Yeah,

943
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't say for sure. And the stock

944
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 1: price went from like a hundred and sixty seven dollars

945
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: before the announcement of the discovery of this cheating or

946
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: at least the public unveiling that you know, this was

947
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: a thing. Uh today, when I checked it earlier, it

948
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: was a hundred and two dollars. So it does the

949
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: smart money by right now? Or do you wait and see?

950
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: Because if you're talking about a company that maybe facing

951
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: up to eighteen billion dollars in fines and we don't

952
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: know that that's the full extent yet, I would be

953
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: nervous to put money in that because I would think

954
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: like this company might fall a little further before it

955
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: bottoms out. It's probably not not the bottom yet. I

956
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: think we can both agree with that. I mean, and plus,

957
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: you know these fixes that they've outlined just this last week, Uh,

958
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: these don't begin until and some of some of them,

959
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: it's like a three phase thing. Some of them don't

960
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: begin until late This is this is a long term

961
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: problem for Folkswagen. It's not something that's gonna go away overnight.

962
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: And it if you haven't read about it or you

963
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what they're gonna do for the fix, Um,

964
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: it's going to be very, very costly for them. In

965
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 1: addition to the fines that we're talking about, which are

966
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: already enormous, what they're proposing is ridiculously expensive for a

967
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: company to do. And yeah, and it costs not just

968
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: money but also put potentially in performance of your vehicle,

969
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: which also means it's gonna cost and customer satisfaction and loyalty.

970
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the costs here go beyond a dollar amount,

971
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: you know. Can I just can I just run through

972
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: this real quick? Die and Tore I've mentioned about four

973
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 1: times now, but I will quickly go through it, and

974
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what they're doing. And this is this

975
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 1: is UM. The plan is laid out by my um,

976
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: the current US CEO, Michael horne Um. He spent several

977
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: hours testifying in front of a congressional panel just this

978
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: last week, and it's all about the you know, the

979
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: emission scandal, and uh, you know the senators that he

980
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: was in front of, they were, you know, they're angry

981
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: at him. They were incredulous, you know that that this

982
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: this car maker would try to cheat the buy in

983
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: public like this, and the U. S. Government and uh,

984
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, sidestep all these U these standards that they

985
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: in place. And and the funny thing is, and I

986
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: don't know that really say funny, but he's agreeing with

987
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 1: them throughout this whole testimony. He's saying, you know what,

988
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm angry at the manufacturer as well. Are you know

989
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: my company angry it for doing this. I didn't know

990
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: that this is all happening. Um, you know, I'm also upset.

991
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: And so he has a bit of sympathy. I mean,

992
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: he gets That's how he gains, I guess, is his

993
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 1: sympathy with the people that are listening right, Um, believe

994
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: it or not, you know, whether you want to or not.

995
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 1: So there's like three different groups here, and I'll quickly

996
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: go through it. I'm not going to list all the

997
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: vehicles or anything like that, but um, basically it covers

998
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: two different engine types and you can kind of group

999
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: these into three groups and you'll understand when I read it,

1000
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: but it's an old the older engine is the E

1001
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: N engine and the new one is the E A

1002
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: to A eight engine. And the first group is it

1003
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: affects his sixty seven thousand vehicles. This is the smallest

1004
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: of the three groups here in the United States, and

1005
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: the fix is just an updated software fix. And so

1006
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: these are for you know, like the newer two six models,

1007
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: and these are the ones that have the new E

1008
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: A to eight eight engine. UM. Again, the easiest fix,

1009
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: and that's because they're fitted with a selective catallactic reduction

1010
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: system or ext after treatment system that I mentioned earlier. UM,

1011
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: but really they're only going to need a software fixed

1012
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: to become compliant. And then the next group, this is, uh,

1013
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: the the I guess in between group, you know, not

1014
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: not the biggest group that we'll get to last. Uh.

1015
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: This is justeen are through passat t d I and

1016
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: this one will require an updated software fix and a

1017
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: possible hardware modification. So these are cars that have both

1018
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: a lean Knox trap that we mentioned and an scr

1019
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: UREA system as well. And of course, you know the

1020
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: software hardware modifications that they're talking about, they're not really

1021
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: specifying what the hardware modifications will be for this specific vehicle.

1022
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: But nine vehicles are affected with that, so that's kind

1023
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: of like phase two and that's going to begin in

1024
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: mid That first one was early and as a side

1025
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: note on that first one that I mentioned, uh, they

1026
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: do know that you know, fuel economy will likely stay

1027
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: the same, but they said performance might be slightly affected.

1028
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: And that's bad news for people that own those vehicles

1029
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: sixteen you know, golf OUTI, Jetta. You know, those vehicles

1030
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: are the ones that affected. So they don't know what

1031
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: it's going to do to the pisat t D I well.

1032
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: And the worst part about that is saying that they

1033
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: could be slightly affected me it even if it wasn't perceptible.

1034
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,959
Speaker 1: By saying that it's going to be slightly affected, then

1035
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: you know the drivers are going to at least I

1036
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: feel like there's a change in performance, even if it's

1037
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: not detectable on a meaningful scale. If you know, if

1038
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 1: you've heard that your vehicles performance might be slightly affected,

1039
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: that's enough to psychologically push you to believe that it

1040
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: doesn't feel well, you're gonna be sensitive to You're gonna

1041
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: be overly sensitive to that you're gonna you're gonna think

1042
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: that whatever you're feeling is not what you should be

1043
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: feeling in your car even but honestly, it's probably going

1044
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: to affect low end torque. It's gonna affect acceleration. And

1045
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: that's and that's the two things that you would really notice.

1046
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: That's the two things that make a car fund to drive.

1047
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: I mean, in most situations, you taking out top end

1048
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: speed because most people don't hit the top ends. Well, yeah,

1049
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: there's very few opportunities to do. If this if this

1050
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: fix somehow affected the top end, like maybe dropped it

1051
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: down five or something. You know, from the top end,

1052
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: not many people would ever experience them. But when you

1053
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: remove acceleration from say a stoplight or trying to get

1054
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: on the freeway, Uh, that's going to affect your customer base.

1055
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 1: People are gonna say, we don't want it. So the

1056
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: last group, and this is the biggest one, this affects Now,

1057
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: this is a bad group to this affects two thousand

1058
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: nine through two thousand fourteen, jetted T D Eyes, Golf

1059
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: T D Eyes, Beetle T D eyes out e A

1060
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: three's So you know how many of these vehicles you

1061
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: see on the road. They're everywhere all these cars. These

1062
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: are the ones that have a Lean Knox trap only.

1063
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: So these are the ones that may require the most work.

1064
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: And it's the largest group. Yeah, so it's probably going

1065
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: to require a a well, of course, it will require software,

1066
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: you know switch, it's gonna require hardware modifications that are

1067
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: probably in flude, adding a complete um SCR system, you

1068
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: know that that the cleaning system that we talked about,

1069
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,959
Speaker 1: the UREAS system, and they've even talked about for this group.

1070
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: This is how complex this would be. They said, it's

1071
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: gonna take you know, between five and ten hours to

1072
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: make this type of fix and per vehicle, which is

1073
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: an enormous cost to the to the manufacturer for the

1074
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: time of the technician to do that, plus the parts

1075
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: the park can imagine what that costs. So they're talking

1076
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 1: about for this specific group of vehicles, this last group

1077
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: that they won't even start touching until late It affects Oh,

1078
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: by the way, three thousand of the four hundred and

1079
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: some odd that I think it's fours here in the

1080
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: States of the Yeah, they're talking about UM offering, you know,

1081
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: like cash, cash back offers. They're talking about the entire

1082
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: vehicle buy backs, which is huge. I mean, there's been

1083
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: very few times in US history there it's happened, but

1084
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: very few times when the manufacturer says that car will

1085
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: no longer be on the road, we're buying back every

1086
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 1: one of them and they'll shredded or whatever they happen

1087
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: to do with them. I don't know what the plan

1088
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: would be for this, but if they do a car

1089
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: buy back situation, they're likely just going to destroy those vehicles.

1090
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's hard to even comprehend. Really, Yeah,

1091
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: you wouldn't buy back the car and then fix it

1092
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: and then try to sell anything. So it only makes sense.

1093
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: It's logically making sense to me that they would buy

1094
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: them back and shred them in some way destroy them.

1095
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: So this is a do you see what I mean?

1096
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: It gets worse and worse all the time. Yeah. The

1097
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: more you look at it, the more you realize, Wait, no,

1098
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: I I don't have the full comprehension of everything that

1099
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: can happen. And as the story unfolds, will probably learn

1100
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: even more, like maybe we'll learn exactly where this decision

1101
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: was really made, and maybe it was a group of

1102
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: rogues software engineers who are just desperate to have Volkswagen

1103
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: engines appear to meet all of these specifications. Um, you

1104
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: don't just one more quick thing. I mean, sure, it's

1105
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: super quick, but think about the things. Think about the

1106
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: awards that this thing is one, because you know, it

1107
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: wins engine awards. Of course it wins. In two thousand eight,

1108
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: which is the first year that we're talking about, the

1109
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: v W Jetta t d I Clean Diesel won the

1110
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: Green Car the Year award at the l A Auto Show. Um.

1111
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: Now what do you do with that? Do you go

1112
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: back and do you remove that award? I mean yeah,

1113
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: I would imagine you have to strip the awards from

1114
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 1: the from the different models. Just this year, the Volkswagen Golf,

1115
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: now not not particularly the t d I, but the

1116
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: Volkswagen Golf was awarded the North American Car of the

1117
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 1: Year award at the UM at the Detroit Auto Show,

1118
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: the North American International Auto Show. UM. So this thing

1119
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: along the way, that's just two. It's won many awards

1120
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: along the way, and it has long been lauded as being, um,

1121
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like the solution. This is this

1122
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: is what Diesel should be here in the United States

1123
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: or really worldwide. Yeah. Well, I mean, that was why

1124
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: German was looking into it in the first place. So

1125
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: I apologize for interrupting there. But the awards thing, I

1126
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: just had to get get that out there because they're

1127
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: they've been so heavily awarded for all these diesel engines

1128
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: that what do you do with all that? Now? It's

1129
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: again part of the big problem. I guess it goes

1130
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: back to that phrase, you know, if it seems too

1131
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: good to be true, it probably is right in there.

1132
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: Why didn't they look into it when it did seem

1133
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: too good to be true? Again, I think it's one

1134
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: of those things where, well you would either think, well,

1135
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: no company would be so bold as to as to

1136
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: try and fake their way through, because the consequences, as

1137
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: we see now, the consequences are so dire for any

1138
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: company that would attempt that, it seems unthinkable that they

1139
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: would try and do that. Yet, now, had they caught

1140
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: this in say two thousand nine or two uh, this

1141
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: would be dramatically different. It would be a much smaller

1142
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: number of vehicles are affected. It would be an easier

1143
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: thing for VW to fix and say like a Holly,

1144
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: you gott us such, or or even for them to

1145
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: say like it would be even more believable for them

1146
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 1: to say, uh, this this was something that was uh,

1147
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, not intended, but we will fix it like

1148
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: you could. If it's if it's for a year, then

1149
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: you might say, well, the was something going on in

1150
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: the manufacturing process where uh, someone had this brilliant idea

1151
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: or they thought it was a brilliant idea and the

1152
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: implication wasn't completely realized within the company. You could at

1153
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: least plausibly make that point. But we're eight years into this,

1154
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: eight model years into this, it's a lot harder to

1155
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: make that plausible argument. It is. Yes, and and even

1156
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: this eighth model year that was scheduled to come in,

1157
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: as you said, has been embargoed because there's a hold

1158
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: on those vehicles. They're quarantined and they're not able to

1159
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: be sold here. So um, again, it's just a real

1160
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: head scratch all around. Why would they do this? Why

1161
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: why would a company allow this to happen? It is

1162
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: a little crazy. Now on on a related note, I

1163
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: have a thing to wrap this up with because obviously

1164
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: this is a story that's still going. So it maybe

1165
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: a couple of years before it maybe actually a decade

1166
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: or more before we really see the full extent of

1167
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: how the story plays out. But uh, I have a

1168
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: related thing to ask you because it was something I

1169
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: had not heard of before, but I imagine you probably have.

1170
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: Have you heard about the practice called chipping? Yes, okay,

1171
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: this was new to me. So chipping is essentially an

1172
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: aftermarket approach to do pretty much what Volkswagen did, except

1173
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 1: this time it's a customer doing it on purpose to

1174
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: their vehicle. Yeah, to gain performance gains, so um, okay,

1175
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: or sometimes just to be a jerk face game. Let's

1176
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 1: be honest and I'll have a story about that in

1177
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: a minute. Okay, Okay, Well, I don't know what. I

1178
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: don't know what you're gonna come at me with you,

1179
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: But um, a lot of people that I've known have

1180
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: chipped their vehicles or have replaced E C U or

1181
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: you know whatever that the flash upgrade or whatever the

1182
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: terminology was what they did. But there's a lot of

1183
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: different ways to do this. You can completely replace the

1184
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: the engine control unit and make your vehicle think that

1185
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: it's a different model year that has different performance specs,

1186
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: or it's a you can make your U S U

1187
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: S spec vehicle think that it's a European spec vehicle

1188
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: and that it it boosts the performance. You know, it

1189
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: allows a greater output you know, horsepower, tork, etcetera. Um,

1190
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: because you're not you're not electronically limiting your vehicle to

1191
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: whatever the standards are in the place that you are currently.

1192
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:19,439
Speaker 1: So you're you're upping the manufacturers restrictions on your vehicle electronically. Yeah. Yeah.

1193
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: And then whether that's the top end restriction or it's

1194
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: a low end torque thing or shift points or whatever

1195
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: happens to be. Um, it's it's it's a common practice

1196
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: among tuners to do stuff like this of you know,

1197
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: smaller vehicles, you know, like performance import type vehicles or

1198
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: even big trucks. A lot of diesel guys do that.

1199
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: In fact, they're programmable to the point where they can,

1200
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: you know, kind of change things around frequently as much

1201
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: as they want toy with the numbers and you know,

1202
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: make it really good for pulling and for towing, or

1203
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,959
Speaker 1: they can make it, uh you know, like performance games

1204
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: for diesel engines. You get crazy great performance numbers out

1205
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: of a diesel engine if you just have it chipped correctly,

1206
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: which you know, again you you're getting great performance at

1207
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: the expense of the legality of the emissions from your vehicle.

1208
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: And you know, see there's the thing is that you

1209
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: can go back with a scan tool and change that

1210
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: back to whatever you needed to be for the emissions.

1211
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: It's exactly the same thing that Volkswagen is doing, except

1212
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: on a more manual basis. Yes, yes, and other people.

1213
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: You know, if you're outside of that tenure window or whatever,

1214
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: you don't have to have emissions testing. Then you know,

1215
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: it's fun to make your Jeep Cherokee think that it's

1216
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: a cop car, right, and that can happen. You can

1217
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: do stuff like that. So one of the other things

1218
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: that you can end up doing with this. Okay, here's

1219
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: where we get to the jerk face part. Right. Yeah,

1220
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: So sometimes when you chip a car of diesel powered

1221
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: vehicle and you activate it, one of the things that

1222
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: your vehicle might do when you pressed down on the accelerators,

1223
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: belch out an enormous cloud of black exhaust. So you're

1224
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: talking about rolling coal, rolling coal, coal, rolling or rolling coal.

1225
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: So Scott, I walk home. No, it is a three

1226
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: mile walk from from here to my house. And there's

1227
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: a point that I like to rest at. It's it's

1228
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: a little more than halfway to my house. And usually

1229
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: at that point, especially on a hot day, I like

1230
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: to sit down on a bench. It's outside of a

1231
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: lovely little flower shop in in uh the Kendler Park

1232
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: area of Atlanta, and I sit down and I rest

1233
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: for a few minutes before I continue on. It's it's lovely,

1234
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: you know. I I collect my thoughts, I relax, and

1235
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: then I get up to walk the rest of the way.

1236
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: There was a day not long ago, Scott although back

1237
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: when it was much hotter. When I sat down on

1238
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: that bench, got up, I'm ready to start walking. Well,

1239
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: it's at an intersection that's a four way stop, and

1240
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: it's a busy intersection with a four way stop, which

1241
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: is a little tricky for pedestrians because you have to

1242
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: make sure you have the attention of the drivers before

1243
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: you walk across. There's no light to time it with

1244
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 1: hazardous situation. Yeah. So there's a large red Diesel pick

1245
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: up to my left as I'm about to cross the

1246
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: street here and you can hear that loud knocking noise

1247
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: you know what's diesel. Yeah. So I am about to

1248
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: cross the street, but they decide they want to go.

1249
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: So not only do they go, But they flipped the

1250
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: switch and I am covered from head to toe in

1251
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: black exhaust as they turn right, so they turn in

1252
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: front of me, so because they were on my left,

1253
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: they turn right, so they go down the street I

1254
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: was about to cross and belch out that black smoke

1255
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: while cackling and driving down that jerk faces Yeah that

1256
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 1: you know what, that is a jerk face move. I agree.

1257
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: I agree that that whole that whole thing bothers a

1258
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: lot of people. I mean, other people say it's my

1259
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: right to do this, and I'm gonna do this no

1260
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 1: matter what you know. And uh, I guess you could

1261
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: say that, you know, people have been doing this for

1262
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: exhibition for a long time, Like you know, we go

1263
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: to a like a tractor poll event or something like that.

1264
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: You see all those vehicles are belting smoke like that,

1265
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: and they're doing it because it's a There is a

1266
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: performance gain when you do it as well. But the

1267
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: situation that you're talking about, they were doing it just

1268
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: simply to be it's an effective to to envelope you

1269
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: in this cloud of soot, and that's terribly dangerous for you.

1270
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: It's not nice on their part. It was dangerous for

1271
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 1: them to. Let's be honest, at that point, I was

1272
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: not happy that what it does, and just everybody knows,

1273
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 1: is when you flip that switch, it just dumps a

1274
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: bunch of extra fuel into the engine and then that

1275
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: unburned fuel can't quite get burned off the way it

1276
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: normally would. And you know, with all those exhaust scrubbers

1277
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: that we talked about, you know, the particular filters and

1278
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: all that, it bypasses all that, and then you end

1279
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: up with this cloud of smoke that looks like um,

1280
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: like it's coming out if you don't the little trains

1281
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: that burn cold, it looks like that. And that's what

1282
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: they call it. They call it rolling coal. And uh,

1283
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: just so you guys know, out there, out there and

1284
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: listener land. According to John Swanson of California's Air Resource Board,

1285
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: any modification to a pollution control system is illegal unless

1286
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: the manufacturer of that product had proven that the modification

1287
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: doesn't result in any adverse impact on the environment. Now, again,

1288
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: any place that I've seen this happen in real life

1289
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: was has been like an attractor pull up or something

1290
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: like that. But I've never seen anybody actually had this

1291
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: done to them outside of video clips. Yeah, I wish that. No,

1292
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's the second guest say I've seen

1293
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: in traffic. I've seen some some uh you know, diesel

1294
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: trucks that are emitting quite a bit of smoke, but

1295
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: they're traveling at such a speed that I can't tell

1296
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: if they've done that. At a slow speed is very

1297
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: apparent what happens because it's a dramatic difference in the

1298
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: output of exhaust gases rather the cloud of smoke or

1299
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: whatever soot. Uh. I can't say for sure that I've

1300
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 1: never seen it happen in real life, but but I

1301
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: don't think so, not intentionally. Like you know, when they

1302
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: there's a big truck and a priest is following it,

1303
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, they they flip the switch because I think

1304
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 1: that's funny. Or a walker A lot of times you'll

1305
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: see you can see videos of this where they go

1306
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: buy bikers or walkers or whatever, and with these mean

1307
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: spirited videos where they same to meated to you. It

1308
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if there's some video on YouTube where

1309
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: you see a an exhausted, sweaty bald podcaster coated in soot. Well,

1310
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Man, that's terrible. Yeah,

1311
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: as a as a pedestrian who already considers himself somewhat

1312
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: environmentally friendly, it was it was like it was like

1313
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 1: a cherry on top for my day at any rate. Yeah.

1314
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: By the way, Car Stuff has a podcast on Rolling Cole.

1315
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, yeah, go check that out. Guy, that's Dutch.

1316
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 1: It's a completely shameless plug because there's no shame to

1317
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: be had. Uh. Yeah, definitely check out Car Stuff guys. Scott,

1318
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show and

1319
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 1: kind of talking about the scandal and the technology behind it. Uh.

1320
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: This is a little bit of a departure from our

1321
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: normal Tech Stuff episodes, but I thought it was really

1322
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 1: important to talk about because it's something that's been in

1323
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: the news. It does have to do with the tech

1324
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: and in the software of the car, and there's a

1325
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: lot of stuff we could have touched on. But this

1326
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 1: this show has gone pretty long, so I don't want

1327
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 1: to continue it on anymore. But I mean this also

1328
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: ties into other elements of why it's it's harder and

1329
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 1: harder to tell what's going on with your vehicle, at

1330
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: least to tell and be sure that that's really what's happening? Sure,

1331
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 1: I mean look at the false bill of sale that

1332
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 1: that all these VW owners were handed and it really

1333
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: kind of opened everybody's eyes to the fact or to

1334
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 1: the idea of what manufacturers could do to kind of

1335
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: toy with these things. Uh that how much control they

1336
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: have over every little situation that your car can be in.

1337
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very very specific and it's very very

1338
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 1: devious what they did. But um, well they got away

1339
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: with it for about eight years. But too bad for them,

1340
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: they had caught. Yeah, it was the wrong time to

1341
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: get caught. If they were gonna get caught and and

1342
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: somehow escape this, it should have been earlier. They thought

1343
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: they were gonna get away with it forever. And that's

1344
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: one of those points where you realize, like you are

1345
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:57,640
Speaker 1: all in I hope you enjoyed that classic episode and

1346
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: Scott's contribution to it. Uh, missy buddy, hope you're doing

1347
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 1: well out there. It was great to have him on

1348
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: the show and talk about this stuff, because you know,

1349
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: I obviously have my own perspective, my own point of view.

1350
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: I value having other people on the show to kind

1351
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: of balance that out, give me an alternative perspective and

1352
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: and alternative uh conclusions that perhaps I had not even

1353
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 1: thought about. So it's always great having guests on the show.

1354
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out and suggest future

1355
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 1: topics or maybe even future guests that I should have

1356
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: on tech Stuff, please do. There are a couple of

1357
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: different ways you can do that. One is you can

1358
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: download the I Heart Radio app, which is free to download,

1359
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: free to use, Navigate over to the text Stuff page

1360
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: on that app, use little microphone icon that will let

1361
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: you record a voice message up to thirty seconds in length,

1362
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,600
Speaker 1: Or you can hop on over to Twitter send me

1363
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: a message. The handle for the show is tech Stuff

1364
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:06,440
Speaker 1: hs W and I'll talk to you again really soon y.

1365
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 1: Text Stuff is an I heart Radio production. For more

1366
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

1367
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,839
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.