1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm notlcome to Steph. 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: I never told you protection. I heart radio and it's 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: time for another female first, which means we are once 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: again joined by the wonderful, fabulous, great friend of ours. Eves. Hi. Hi, 5 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Hi again, it's me again. Yes, Hi, yep, it's me again. Well, 6 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: this is our first recording of correct together. That feels right, 7 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: that sounds right. Yeah, I know time is already boring 8 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: together this year, But how is your your end of year? 9 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: New Year's Eve? It was good. It was pretty uneventful. 10 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: I didn't really do any thing. I think I slept. No, 11 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: I think I was up at midnight and I think 12 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: I want to sleep. Right at midnight, I was like, 13 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: it's time to go to sleep. Um, So I was 14 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: surprised I even made it at midnight. But yeah, beyond 15 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: the actual day, I am happy. It's a new year. 16 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: I'm trying for this to be one of those years where, 17 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: of course it's a good time to reflect on the 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: past and the future and all of those things, but 19 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: also trying to be less serious about that and understand 20 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: that it's something that can happen all year long as well. 21 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: So I will say things are different and they're the same. Yes, 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: I feels about right for the last four years. Different 23 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: but the same. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because my New 24 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Year's resolution is to take better care of myself and 25 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: I have like specifics about it. But on New Year's Eve, 26 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: New Year's Day, I stayed up until five. I am 27 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: playing a video game I played ten times. I'm having 28 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: like a fifty five per cent success rate right now. 29 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: I think on the game, you mean success on my 30 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: resolution to a little number, don't. I don't want to 31 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: say anything, but you know, nice about it, like, oh, 32 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: on the game that you play four times ten times? 33 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: The same. I'm terrible at games. I'm just messing with you. 34 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: Terrible a video games? All good, All good, Well for 35 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: this one. I know we've talked before about art and sculpture, 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: but my question to the group is what it was 37 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: your favorite? Like writing discounted, what was your favorite form? 38 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: If I guess visual art that you've participated in, do 39 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: you do you mean things that I've myself created or 40 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: just like in terms of an observer, I was asking 41 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: for what you yourself has created, But now I want 42 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: to hear both. No, it's writing. Writing is like, I mean, 43 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: it's not a visual art technically per se. I haven't 44 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: really dabbled in any of the visual arts painting, sculpture, drawing, 45 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: none of those. But um, I would say that's a 46 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: good question. I would say probably painting. And I would 47 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: say that because that is the first thing that comes 48 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: into my mind based on the emotional, like visceral emotional 49 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: reactions that I've had when I'm in spaces with paintings. Um, 50 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: I think that I am more drawn to and have 51 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: stronger emotional reactions through viewing paintings. But I've also I mean, 52 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: I've also had pretty strong reactions to other things as well, 53 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: like video and sculpture. Yeah, what about you? Yeah, I 54 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: think Um, and one of these past female first we 55 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: talked about this, but I the lowest grade I ever 56 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: got was an art in high school. Um, well, in 57 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: college I got a little regrade in something else, but 58 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: in high school often until then, that was my lowest grade. 59 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: And everything I did the teacher hated. I was thinking 60 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: about this other night. She hated every single thing that 61 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: I did. But I did like in terms of creation, 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: I really liked. We did this project once where you 63 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: made a portrait of somebody out of materials that you 64 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: would find, and actually really enjoyed that because it was 65 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: very textural and and to kind of hunt down these 66 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: items and think about them in a different way of 67 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: how they could reflect because I was trying to create 68 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: somebody in a sunset, so I had to find all 69 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: those kind of swabs of colors but in these other items. 70 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: So I really really enjoyed that. And I think I'm 71 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: with you with when I think about the art that's 72 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: moved me the most. Paintings is probably visually and visual 73 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: arts the one that has done it. But I like 74 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: that you brought up video because that's true, and I 75 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: feel like that gets left out of the conversation a lot. 76 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: And I have seen some just really moving video art 77 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: but their space. Like I'm a I love sculpture as well, 78 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: and I do. I enjoyed sculpting and I used to 79 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: make a lot of pottery. I just was never very 80 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: good at it, but I did enjoy it. Yeah, what 81 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: about used to Mantha? So I am not good at 82 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: art in general, and that is not my forte. The 83 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: only good thing I could do. I think I've told 84 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: you about this is one time I got really into 85 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: drawing penguins no reason, I just did it, and good 86 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: friend of mine and I would make puns out of 87 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: all these penguins. That was my favorite thing to do 88 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: because it was just like a little circle, a little 89 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: pointy beak in the story. And for some reason I 90 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: really thought I was doing something with that. Guess what 91 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't. However, I do love art in itself, and yeah, 92 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm with you. When I get to go to a 93 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: good exhibit and it really flows and it just like 94 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: speaks to you. There are moments that I'm like, oh wow. 95 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: And of course I love deep colors, so I'm one 96 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: of those that did fall into the mona trap. I'm like, 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm digging these colors. And I was like 98 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: I was looking at his stuff and like finding his history. 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, yeah, I could definitely tell he 100 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: was going blind. I still love it because he's still 101 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: with us so much better than I could ever do 102 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: in it myself in any way. Like fully, there so 103 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: all of those things, but I do love also finding 104 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: the fascinating histories behind the different artists. They do make 105 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: me very happy. I think that's just in general for 106 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: like authors to which I yes, I believe that's art, 107 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: but I know we're not like counting that for this moment. 108 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, for me, like the cheesy experiences have been 109 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: happening where you're really immersed in it. Everybody's kind of 110 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: been like, oh, what is this, But like I really 111 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: enjoyed that because for a minute, you do really think 112 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: that you're in the middle of it and it feels 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: like you're part of that art for just a second. 114 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: Of course, again cheesy effects, and I get why people 115 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: are like, no, this is awful, so like it's ruining art, 116 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: But I love that experience to be a mars in 117 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: it to that point of like seeing it in depth 118 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: and filling it almost like moved through you. I will 119 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: say that I also really love prints, like I love 120 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: works on paper. Yeah, I love works on paper. And 121 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: I also love book art. I like fall for book art. 122 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: I think it's so wonderful. It's just and then and 123 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: it just merges you know, language, visual language, in the 124 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: actual form of the book, even though it doesn't always 125 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: have to look like a typical book that we would read. 126 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, I love book art as well. Yeah, well, 127 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: now that I'm thinking about it, Like I love comics, comics, 128 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: and I love film, like I'm a huge movie person, 129 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: and there's definitely but also um, I mean there's yeah, 130 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: there's just so much more we could include visual art 131 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: and expansive it is. Oh wow, my mind, my mind 132 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: is just expanding even more. But also photography, That's what 133 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: I was going to say. I got a lot of 134 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: photography books for Christmas actually, and beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, all right, 135 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: so we like, we like art, is what I'm hearing. 136 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: He probably knows that by this point, Yes, considering where 137 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: a podcaster is considering, I bring artists all the time, 138 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: and they know that we write it are involved in 139 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: the arts in so many different ways. Yes, yes, but 140 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: also yeah, I do miss it, So we have that really, 141 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: And I know we talked about in the past episode two. 142 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: I miss going to exhibits and museums and stuff. So 143 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: with all of that, who did you bring for us 144 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: to talk about today? Eves? Today we're going to talk 145 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: about Mary at Monia Lewis. So I was kind of 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: hesitant to bring her because you know, I know that 147 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot out there on her, not like that's 148 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: a qualification for not bringing somebody on the show, Like 149 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: there is already a lot of information that exists because 150 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: of course, just because there's so much information about her, 151 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: and she's really popped back up over the last decade, 152 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: like a lot of people have been talking about her, 153 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: her works that have been found in her place in 154 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: the legacy of artists in the United States and in 155 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: the world internationally as well. But I think she's still 156 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: a person who is so worthy of talking about. And 157 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: I think we've also we might have brought her name 158 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: up in the media vote Work Fuller episode. She was 159 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: a sculptor as well, So I feel like maybe we 160 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: mentioned her in there because I feel like I remember 161 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: her name coming up in But even if we didn't, 162 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: just you know that she had at Monia Lewis herself 163 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: had a bunch of her own inspirations and also inspired 164 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: people later who worked in the field. So in terms 165 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: of her first she was the first woman of Black 166 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: America in a Native American heritage to achieve international fame 167 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: as a sculptor. And yeah, she just had this huge 168 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: mythology around her that was built up, and partially she 169 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: built up a lot of that on her own, and 170 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: then there was a lot of mythologizing that happened in 171 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: the press and the people who wrote about her. Yeah, 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: so we'll get into some of that later. Yeah, I 173 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: feel like that's a theme in a lot of these 174 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: is the kind of creating of the story or the 175 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: myth behind this person and how they were were not involved, 176 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: which I kind of appreciate. Yeah, as I was like 177 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: researching heard this song Yankee Doodle Dandy, was going through 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: my head like over and over. The phrase born on 179 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: the fourth of July was just like going through and 180 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: through my head because I was thinking about how she 181 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: said she was born on the fourth of July, and 182 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: that was a running theme for a lot of people. 183 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: They didn't know their birthday, they would just to say 184 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: that they were born on the fourth of Lie. So 185 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: that was just for stuff, believe in. I'm afraid in 186 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: my head, I know that that's yeah, I know it's rough, 187 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 1: but yeah. There is a bunch of conflicting information about 188 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: her early life, which is also a running theme. But 189 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: she's said to have and bellished a lot of things 190 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and changed them over time. But like I said, one 191 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: of those things was that the date that they get 192 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: July fourth, eighteen forty four, So that year wasn't the 193 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: only year that she ever said that she was born. 194 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: In other places say she was born, but it is 195 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of the consensus year that it's gone with. It 196 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: is the one that's on her gravestone. And that number 197 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: is based on her passport application, which apparently also said 198 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: that she was four feet tall. So when people described her, 199 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: they said she was short, but on her passport applications 200 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: that she was four feet tall. But um, yeah, so 201 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: she got on her application and said that she was 202 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: born on or around July fourth, eighteen forty four, and 203 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: she was born in Greenblish, New York. So they are 204 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: different birthdates, death dates for her mother, and other dates 205 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: recorded in her personal history that you'll find. Yeah. I mean, 206 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: as we've spoken about before, this is digging into the past. 207 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: Whether records can be murky, if they were kept at all, 208 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: could be so so difficult and tricky. I find it 209 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: interesting that that passport would say on or around you 210 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: could have kind of like a or around. Honor is 211 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: somewhere in there. And her heritage her father was black 212 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: and he was from the West Indies, and her mother 213 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: was Ojibway and born in Canada. So she claimed that 214 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: her mother, Catherine, was a quote unquote full blooded Indian, 215 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: but Catherine's father was a black man and her mother 216 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: had black and Ojibwe parents, so that her heritage. Ammonia's 217 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: mother's heritage was mixed as well. Her parents died when 218 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: she was young, but she did have a brother named Samuel, 219 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: and according to Ammonia, they both had Native American names 220 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: as well. His was Sunshine and Ammonia's she said that 221 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: her name was Wildfire. But after she lost her parents, 222 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: she went to live with her aunts elsewhere in New 223 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: York and her brother soon left for California, but he 224 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: did send money back to her for her education and 225 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: would continue to support her throughout her educational years, which 226 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: is obviously something that helps anybody a lot, and it 227 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: did for her um that he was invested in her education. 228 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: So in New York she went to Baptist Abolitionist school 229 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and then she went to Oberlin College in Ohio, which 230 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: she attended from eighteen fifty nine to eighteen sixty three. 231 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: So while she was there, she boarded with the Reverend 232 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: John keep and he was a member of the board 233 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: of trustees and an abolitionist. Throughout her life, she was 234 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: connected to a lot of abolitionists. She stayed in places 235 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: where a lot of abolitionists were located, and she got 236 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: a lot of financial support from them, encouragement from them, 237 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: press from abolitionists, and things like that. Oberlin College was 238 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: known for being associated with the movement, and it was 239 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: known for admitting black people and women. At the same time, 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: there was a young ladies department that was split off 241 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: from the rest of the college, in which Lewis was enrolled, 242 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: and so there was still this confinement to women's roles. 243 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: Ideologically at the college, it was set the training that 244 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: they got there would help them and teaching and quote 245 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: unquote duties of the sphere. So it wasn't so simple. 246 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: It's just like, oh, there's is college with this huge 247 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: reputation of being progressive and being all about abolitionism. At 248 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: the same time, this was still that period in the 249 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: United States and surrounding the college and in the college itself. 250 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: We're still people who didn't rock with this whole idea 251 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: of co education. Then the reputation that it had um 252 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: there were plenty of people in the area who are 253 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: still anti black, who were still anti abolitionist, and who 254 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: are still anti anybody starting the pot essentially um like 255 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: really sticking to these moral codes according to what they 256 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: view of morality. Young ladies. I don't know. There's something 257 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: about having the young front of it to wow. But 258 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I know I've told this story on the show. 259 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: Before I was in high school, I still had to 260 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: go to homeck and it was four girls at the 261 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: high school. We still had to do that. And then 262 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: I went to a technical school that was all men 263 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: until fairly recently, and of the bathrooms still just had 264 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: a sign with women taped over it. Any women's bathrooms. 265 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: They had bothered to do anything, do any better than 266 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: that since then. Yeah, yeah, so it's weird. So many 267 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: things we talked about. It's weird, like how far we've come, 268 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: but also so much of this legacy still we're still 269 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: dealing with. Yeah, for sure. That's also a running theme. 270 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: So when she was there, she still took classes like algebra, geometry, 271 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: and composition, and she took art classes, so she didn't 272 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: learn how to draw while she was there. But she 273 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: did run into troubles while she was at the college. 274 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: So in uh two incidents, she served two women who 275 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: she was boarding with, two white women specifically who she 276 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: was born with mulled wine, and then they went out, 277 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: they went to you know, go go on a sleigh 278 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: ride or something like that, and they accused her of 279 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: poisoning them with Danish fly, which was a substance that 280 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: has been considered an afrodisiac in the past, and but 281 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: they claimed that she poisoned them, and after that she 282 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: was attacked. Pemmonia was attacked and be in Not long 283 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: after that she was arrested, but her trial was delayed, 284 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: which when it did happen, it lasted for about six 285 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: days from the end of February to the beginning of March. 286 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: So she did still have supporters, even though there were 287 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: clearly people who didn't rock with her, and Keeps for one, 288 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: was one of her supporters and her attorney also John 289 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: Mercer Langston, who helped her win the trial. But at 290 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: the same time, she was later accused of other crimes 291 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: like being accused of stealing art supplies while attending the 292 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: school so they wouldn't let her register for the last term. 293 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: And some of the publications that go back and look 294 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: at her legacies that some of the issues that she had, 295 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: the challenges that she had while she was there, and 296 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: her reason for leaving the school, those parts her absences 297 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: and kind of skipped over. So it's really interesting to 298 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: think about the things that she herself chose to leave 299 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: out of her story when she told it herself, and 300 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: also the things that were absent when other people were 301 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: telling her story. And of course that depends on a 302 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: source and how much room there isn't a source for 303 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: a thing, But you know, it's interesting, and she was. 304 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: So she was forced to leave Oberlin before she got 305 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: her degree, and she decided to move on and pursue art. 306 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: So she went to Boston in eighteen sixty four. Keeps 307 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: wrote a letter of introduction for her to William Lloyd Garrison, 308 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: who was an abolitionist and a journalist who people might 309 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: be familiar with. It's a pretty big name. And he 310 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: was able to connect her with sculptors and writers, and 311 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: so she began working under Edward A. Brackett, who was 312 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: also an artist. She learned modeling and casting, but they 313 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: later parted ways for some unknown reason. There there seemed 314 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: to have been some sort of conflict there, but that 315 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: relationship didn't last really long, but she continued to create art, 316 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: and in eighteen sixty three she created a plaster medallion 317 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: of abolitionist John Brown, and the next year she also 318 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: created a marble bust of Colonel Robert Gould Shaw. She 319 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: sold photographs and plaster cast of the bus, which those 320 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: plaster cast she sold at fifteen dollars each, and she 321 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: also made bust of the characters and Henry Watsworth Longfellow's 322 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: epic poem The Song of Hiawatsa. But you know, after 323 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: a while, travel is a part of her history. Um. 324 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: Not long after she was able to apply for a 325 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: passport because of all the funds that she was getting 326 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: from her work, and take a ship to Italy. So 327 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: she moved to Italy, and as many artists did at 328 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 1: the time, there was a huge community of expat artists, 329 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: um and sculptors who lived in Italy. But in the 330 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: New York Times article in eighteen seventy eight, she said 331 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: quote I was practically driven to Rome in order to 332 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: obtain the opportunities for art culture and to find a 333 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: social atmosphere where I was not constantly reminded of my color. 334 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: The land of liberty had no room for a colored sculptor. 335 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: There were a lot of articles written about her in 336 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: those abolitionist papers, which she was also able to be 337 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: in because of the connections that she did have. She 338 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: did interviews with people and had articles written by about 339 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: her by people like Elizabeth Peabody and Lydia Maria Child, 340 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: all these people who were involved in this press and 341 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: activist circle in the area. And as author Kristen pie 342 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: Buick puts it in her book that she wrote about 343 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: Louis called Child of the Fire, she said, quote Lewis's 344 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: image was reshaped largely by the white women men who 345 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: wrote her into existence, which is something that I mean 346 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: we I think we've spoken about before on the show 347 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: when we do female first, it's just like these are 348 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: we have to consider consider the source. Louis and Lydia 349 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: Maria Child, who I just mentioned, were at odds. A 350 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: lot of the time, Child would suggest ideas to Louis 351 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: as to how she should run her career. Because Louis 352 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: she was determined and she believed clearly believed in her work. 353 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: She wouldn't always wait for commissions for her work. She 354 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: would do things like make something and then send it 355 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: to the person that she dedicated it to and then 356 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: get them to find a buyer if they didn't buy it. 357 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: There was a lot of back and forth in the 358 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: relationship between the two of them, and I've found in 359 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: the comments about her as well. But also in this relationship, 360 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: there were lots of patronizing attitudes directed at Ammonia that 361 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: she should be uplifted just because she was mixed race. Um. 362 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: And at the same time, there was this idea like, oh, wow, 363 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: look at what she's doing. She's a mixed race artist 364 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: who is creating these sculptures, So she's worthy of being 365 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: talked about just because of her race, and this is 366 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: the thing that exoticizes her as an artist, without just 367 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: viewing the art itself for its own qualities and its 368 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: own merits. But at the same time that was happening, 369 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: she was also demeaned and infantilized because of her race. 370 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: For instance, child didn't think that she was as talented 371 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: as others portrayed her, and she thought she was irresponsible 372 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: when it came to money, But like, what would somebody 373 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: expect since she was black and Native American, Like, of 374 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: course she had those qualities of being irresponsible. She didn't 375 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: learn these things, she didn't grow up with this kind 376 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: of civilization. So it is definitely a lot of nuance 377 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: in it where it's like, yes, it's valid to say 378 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: that she shouldn't be uplifted just because of her race. 379 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: You know, we have to actually look at the qualities 380 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: of her work. But of course wrapped up into all 381 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: those things where the complexities of the way that people 382 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: spoke about black people and spoke about Native American people 383 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: at the time. So either way, she spent a lot 384 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: of time in Italy, spending time in Florence and Rome, 385 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: and she kept on creating art. It was said that 386 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: when she went to Florence when she when she first 387 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: got there, she went to Florence since she was set 388 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: up to stay with an American family, but they didn't 389 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: let her in. So immediately from her coming from the 390 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: United States and getting to Europe, you know, she was 391 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: already meeting brick walls essentially. Yeah, so she didn't meet 392 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: artists while she was there. Um that she was connected 393 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: to like Hiram Powers and Thomas Balls and other expats 394 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: who were in the country. And she would do bus 395 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: and sculptures and the neo classical style. You would do 396 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: works after famous Classical and Renaissance sculptures and then sell 397 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: them to tourists in Rome, and her work centered around historical, social, racial, religious, 398 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: and literary themes. Those are typically what her works would 399 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: focus on, and most of her work was created between 400 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six and seventy six, but she did she 401 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: did quite a few pieces over the course of her life, 402 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: although all of those no longer exists, Like, we don't 403 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: have visual record of a lot of those, and they 404 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: don't they aren't known to be anywhere in life as well. 405 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a really roundabout way of saying 406 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: that they get destroyed or just disappeared from record, or 407 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: or do they know what happened. No, it's not known 408 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: what happened with a lot of her work is just gone. 409 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: And we'll get to the story later about one of 410 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: her biggest pieces that she did about Cleopatra that had 411 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: this really circuitous route to being refound in recent years. Teaser. Yeah. Yeah. 412 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: She carved her own marble when she was in Italy, 413 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: which wasn't a thing that um there were a lot 414 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: of artists who didn't do that. They would get Italian artists, 415 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: local Italian artisans to do the actual carving of the marble, 416 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: and what they would do is create the designs and 417 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: the plaster works and then the artisans in the area 418 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: would carve the marble. But she carved her own marble. 419 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: And like I said, you can go through and see 420 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: some of her works like but some of the notable ones. 421 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: For instance, one was eighteen sixty seven's Forever Free, which 422 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: was a sculpture of two freed enslaved people who were 423 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: depicted like upon received the news of emancipation. But she 424 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: was Catholic. It's not clear when she became Catholic. There's 425 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: a good chance that she was Catholic back to childhood, 426 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: but a lot of her work was influenced by her Catholicism. 427 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: For instance, there was a black couple who commissioned her 428 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: to do a sculpture called Version at the Cross for 429 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: a grave. They didn't like it, and and what happened 430 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: was they pay her a few installments of I think 431 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: it was a four installments that they were supposed to 432 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: pay her in but they paid the third one. They 433 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: got it. They didn't like it. They didn't want to 434 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: pay her the fourth part, and she went to court, 435 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: won the case and got some of the money that 436 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: she asked for in the settlement. In Italy. She she 437 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: did in Italy, but the couple was from the United States. 438 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: She would also go to Catholic fairs and she would 439 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: sale works to people at Catholic churches and well, she 440 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: would still works to the Catholic churches and also the 441 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: church members and Pope Pius the ninth instead to have 442 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: visited her studio in Rome, but she didn't go back 443 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: to the U s. From time to time, um, doing 444 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: some marketing for her work. And when she visited Chicago 445 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, she sat for a series of pictures, 446 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: and there are other photos outside of that sitting as 447 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: well of her. But um, it's really nice to go 448 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: look at the pictures and just stare at for a minute. 449 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm weird for doing things like that, 450 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: but it's nice when you actually have photos of people 451 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: and actually and also as many photos as there are 452 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: of her. Yeah, so I recommend doing that. You can 453 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: find them online. But yeah, So the work that I 454 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: teased earlier was the Death of Cleopatra. That's another notable 455 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: work of hers. She was invited to participate in the 456 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia. The event was 457 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: held to celebrate the hundredth anniversary of the signing of 458 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence. It was all this like hurrah. 459 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: Around the event, there were exhibits for technology and art, 460 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: and for the event, Louis made the this really big sculpture, 461 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: The Death of Cleopatra, and in it, the Egyptian Queen 462 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: Cleopatra is portrayed slumped like laid back in her throne, 463 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: dead after letting a snake bite her, as the story goes. 464 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: But it was different than other neoclassical sculptures of Cleopatra 465 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: at the time, which more so held Cleopatra in a 466 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: different light, romanticized her a little bit more about her 467 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: up on a pedestal, you know, versus being slumped in 468 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: a chair. And the sculpture was praised critically and it 469 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: was a popular piece among the other sculptures that were 470 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: within the exhibition, But it wasn't sold at the exposition. 471 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: It was exhibited in Chicago not that long afterwards. Then 472 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: it was put in storage, Then it was displayed in 473 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: a saloon. Then it was acquired by John Condon, who 474 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: was a racetrack owner, who put it on top of 475 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: the grave of his horse named Cleopatra. Tracks un didn't 476 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: put in the properties d that it was never to 477 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: be moved, but as things go, development happened, and um, 478 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, I think it went to a 479 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: storageyard and then a boy Scout troop painted it after 480 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: finding it outside. So they know not what they did, 481 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure you know, but it wasn't great for the 482 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: sculpture itself had already been outside for so long that 483 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: you can only imagine what the damage looked like before. 484 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, I didn't actually, I don't know if 485 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: there were pictures of it before it was restored or not, 486 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: but that those would be really interesting to see. But 487 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: in a member of the Historical Society of Forest Park, 488 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: which is a suburb outside of Chicago, acquired the sculpture. 489 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: Louis was then identified as a sculptor who did it 490 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: in was in the Smithsonian's permanent collection. Um, so there 491 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: were a lot of different people who had their hands 492 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: and obviously this was a very fortunate event because things 493 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: don't always get found and attributed to the people who 494 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: they belonged to, especially if they've just been sitting for 495 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: so long they don't they get destroyed. So this is 496 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: one of those cases. Samanthew, you act, so like those 497 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: works were destroyed or we just don't know what happened 498 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: to them. This could have been one of those things 499 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: where like we didn't know what happened to them or 500 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: it was destroyed. It was, you know, in the whole 501 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: process of it being outside in the elements for so long, 502 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: But it wasn't because of the work of a bunch 503 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: of people like art historian Marilyn Richardson, bibliographer Dorothy Porter Wesley, 504 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: and the curator George Kearney, like helped along the way 505 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: to get identified, restored and saved. But this is like, 506 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: this is one of the really notable works in her 507 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: in her history even though she created a lot, but 508 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,719 Speaker 1: beyond her Egyptian subjects, Catholic subjects, and the anti slavery ones, 509 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: she also did people portraits and busts of people who 510 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: were her patrons and notable people like President Ulys's Grant 511 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: who sat for her, people like Abraham Lincoln and Frederick 512 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Douglas who even met and hung out with her, and 513 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: then after that visit she created the bust. Yeah, so 514 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: it was a lively career where she met with so 515 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: many different people who were also notable in their time. 516 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: So she had a lot of contemporary notability and success 517 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: like also in the way of selling her work, but 518 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: also in the acclaim, so the popular as well as critical. 519 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: But by the eighties demand for her work wasn't as 520 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: high as it was previously, and by she lived in France. 521 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: In nineteen o one she was in London, and while 522 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: she was in Europe people did support her financially and 523 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: by connecting her with other people and sending people to 524 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: her studio. But she died in London in seven and 525 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: in her will she she called herself a spinster and 526 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: a sculptor. But yeah, she was buried in an unmarked 527 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: grave at St Mary's Roman Catholic Cemetery. Okay, so after 528 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: this long life, with this legacy that was marked in 529 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: its own time, she was still buried in unmarked grave. 530 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: But a historian in town where she was born did 531 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: set up a fundraiser to create a marker for her 532 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: for her grave, which she only got about five years ago, 533 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: so not not long ago at all. But fortunately people 534 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: are still invested in making sure that her history is 535 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: known and finding out more about her, so a lot 536 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: of her work is still on view in places like Boston, 537 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: d c and Alabama. But then there's a lot that 538 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: we don't have anymore, but you know, you can still 539 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: go see it in person, so that is that is 540 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: a good thing, you know, that it is so accessible 541 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: in person and also online. Yes, yes, there's some really 542 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: really amazing pictures online, and that is quite quite the story, 543 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: very well traveled person um and kind of yeah, connecting 544 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: to all these people from the time, and to call 545 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: yourself a spinster in your will, to call yourself a spinster. 546 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: That sounds like a story, it does, doesn't it. And 547 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad that. I mean, it's a shame that there 548 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: was an unmarked grave in the first place, but I'm 549 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: glad that people were dedicated and determined to change that 550 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: even though it was so recent. So I'm guessing someone 551 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: was able to keep up with her grave, knowing where 552 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: she was the entire time, because that's a long space 553 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: of time to have a mark grave, to be like, 554 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: hey and this is her headstone. Yeah, yeah, for sure, 555 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: it had to be tracked down, which I think is 556 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: some of the work that the historian I mentioned earlier, 557 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: Marilyn Richardson did. Yeah, but it's one of those things 558 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: that clearly has to have a lot of work put 559 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: into it because it's not that easy to find, especially 560 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: at being in London, right, Right, like the level of 561 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: the travel in itself, but in my head, so that 562 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: clear Patra marble statue was over three thousand pounds, and 563 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: I guess she did it there in Philadelphia's what I'm imagining, 564 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: Is that correct? That's a good question. I don't know 565 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: if it was transported from Europe to the United States, 566 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: because I know that it stayed in the United States 567 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: because they didn't want to transport it back to Europe. Right. 568 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: That's like all of these works, because when we were 569 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: talking about even the piece that they did that they 570 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 1: didn't like, that the couple didn't like in the u 571 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: s all of this back and forth travel. She was 572 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: noted to be that good that people were willing to 573 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: commission from overseas during a time where exporting things was 574 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: not an easy feat. Yeah, a lot of her stuff 575 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: she did send back overseas. Right, Her popularity, her tee 576 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: it in that traveled in such a way, and yeah, 577 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: it feels like a slap in the face to have 578 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: her placing and marred grave when she was so well 579 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: liked and so well known that they were willing to 580 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: do this for her work, but yet still because I'm like, like, 581 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine the practicality. Maybe I'm just 582 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: too literal, Well, like, wow, who has the money to 583 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: do this? Who has to go back and forth overseas 584 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: for Marvel sculpture, which I'm sure took her a lot 585 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: of time, But yet she still has a lot of pieces. 586 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: Once again, because we know so much have been destroyed, 587 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, there's still evidence of other work out there. Yeah, 588 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: I desperately want to see, as tragic as it is, 589 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts paint chab of this statue. I'm glad 590 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: it was restored, but I've got to admit there's I 591 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: want to see this. Surely there's a picture of that. 592 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if the job that they did was like 593 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: trying to conservationist, like if they were if they were 594 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: painting white, or if they were trying to be more 595 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: reportive and painted colors. Yeah, and now that I think 596 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: about the standards subject in general, I'm like, this is interesting. Yeah, 597 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out this conversation of like this 598 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: makes sense instead of just cleaning it off or washing 599 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: it off, which I've seen them do like keeping headstones, 600 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: cleans historical sites, cleaned to actually painted, Like who gave 601 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: them permission to do this? And I understand it's for 602 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: a horse, but obviously this person whoever did this really 603 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: loved this horse enough to get this again three thousand 604 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: pounds statue to be its headstone. Like, I'm very shocked, 605 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: and I have a lot of questions, have a lot 606 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: of questions. Yeah, what did the transport job from wherever else? 607 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: It was? Looked like that because I think that was 608 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: still in the Chicago area, so we didn't have to 609 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: move forward to get from the place it was before 610 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: too the place where the horse was the horse's grave was, 611 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: but it still had to be transported in some way. 612 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: So it's like, you gotta you did a lot. But 613 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: it was saying something that how drawn he was too 614 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: to it to the patrick. But wow, I mean what 615 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: a horse it had to have. Amazing horse, the horse. 616 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: I love it. Right now. I think we should all 617 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: get um bust of ourselves. I totally want I would. 618 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: I would love that one day, let's look at our budget. 619 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: I'm both scared and excited. It's kind of my general 620 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: view on life anyway. So wow, right, But yeah, going 621 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: back to her accomplishments, it is amazing. Like I said, like, 622 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm really racking my brain and processing just what she 623 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: went through, how much she went through, the continued fight 624 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: that she had to have, that she had to leave 625 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: a whole country in order to find peace to work 626 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: rather than anything else, and it still took so long 627 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: to get there, and then being able to do it 628 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: and then still get notoriety from the place that she 629 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: wasn't welcomed essentially, and then to this. But it is 630 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: an amazing life. And honestly, I didn't know too much 631 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: about her, like I've heard the name in the story. Uh, 632 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, I don't know why my brain has just 633 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: latched onto everything being in a movie. But yeah, this 634 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: feels like I'm sure there is one. Is there a one? 635 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: I don't know about her a lot. I don't think 636 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: I feel like it should be epic, Like just her 637 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: doing these creations is probably a good at least of 638 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: fifteen minute YouTube of like a you know, paste together 639 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: of what she's doing. There's definitely no biopic. We got 640 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the ideas, you got the ideas, and we're here for 641 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: support right now. I think that'd be great I'm imagine 642 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: like you'll see you as Grant, like just the image 643 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: of him sitting there and getting the bust made. There's 644 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: a lot of very visually interesting I think, also a 645 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: lot to play with if we're thinking about this in dramatization, 646 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: for because of how much she embellished, and because you 647 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: already kind of have license to do a lot of 648 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: creation within her story. If you were doing something more 649 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: dramatized and fictionalized because of the own embellishment that she 650 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: did of her own story, I feel like, well, let 651 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: me not put any projective thing onto her. But it's 652 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: already a part of her story. Fictionalization is I mean 653 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 1: her trial alone from the college, that would be like 654 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: a tense moment, all right, I'm gonna stop, but like 655 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: moment of like seeing her fighting through these cases. Yeah. 656 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: And there is a lot more context, for instance, in 657 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: the book that I mentioned by Kristin Piepuick about her 658 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: role in her the significance of her being black and 659 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: Native American and the Haitian history that all of that 660 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: wrapped up into her story and how she dealt with 661 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 1: that as an artist, and how how ripe that was 662 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: for people contemporary people, So how ripe, that exoticization, the 663 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: drawal of that, and being able to talk about that 664 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: in their commentary on her, but also in scholarship about 665 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: her as well, just being able to look back at 666 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: her story and say, oh, this is this is a 667 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: part of her story, so this identity, is this why 668 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: she did this? Um So there's a lot of a 669 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: lot more context and you can definitely go deeper into 670 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: that part of her story as well. Yes, yes, and 671 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 1: we always appreciate you bringing these stories to us, Eaves, 672 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: and doing it with such grace and nuvance because they 673 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: are very complex. Yeah, yeah, we love. We love having 674 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: you and seeing you in this digital way at least 675 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: once a month both get our sminty budget on some bust. 676 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: In the meantime, where can the listeners find you? Ease? 677 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: You can find me on many more episodes on this 678 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: very here podcast I'm talking about other female first. Also, 679 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: you can find me online at us jeff cot dot 680 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: com or on Instagram at not Apologizing, on Twitter at 681 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: Eaves Jeff Cote, and other podcasts as well. Yes, she's 682 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 1: out and about online and you should definitely check out 683 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: all the stuff Eaves is doing if you haven't already 684 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: and thank you once again Eves for joining us. If 685 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: you would like to contact us listeners, you can or 686 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: emails Stephanie you mom Stuff at i heeartnet dot com. 687 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast 688 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: or Instagram Stuff We Never Told You. Thanks as always 689 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, thank you and see you 690 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I Never Told You his prediction to 691 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. For more podcast in my Heart Radio, visit 692 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or where you listen 693 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. H