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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Here everyone, I am back and I wanted to share

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Speaker 1: a few quick updates with you. I'm so excited to

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Speaker 1: say that we're gonna be back with new weekly episodes

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Speaker 1: for our new season, dropping in just a few weeks,

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Speaker 1: and I cannot wait. But in the meantime, I just

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Speaker 1: had to come back in your earbuds because I just

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Speaker 1: finished that new Amazon Prime documentary Lula Rich, and I

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Speaker 1: am dying to talk about it. So, for those of

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Speaker 1: you who don't know, Lula Rich is a documentary all

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Speaker 1: about Lula Row, the multi level marketing scheme that sold

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Speaker 1: leggings and big dreams of successful entrepreneurship to millions of

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Speaker 1: millennial women across the country. But basically it was too

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Speaker 1: good to be true because it turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a total scam. And truly, there is nothing I love

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Speaker 1: more on this planet than a documentary about a scam.

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Speaker 1: So later this week we'll have a very special episode

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Speaker 1: featuring Verberta Blevins, the former Lula Row mentor turned multi

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Speaker 1: level marketing awareness advocate featured heavily in the documentary, and

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Speaker 1: hearing Roberta story and all the other women's stories in

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Speaker 1: the Lula ro documentary really got me thinking about the

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Speaker 1: kinds of societal conditions for women that allowed for these

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Speaker 1: women to get scammed by Lula Row. You know, we

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Speaker 1: basically live in a world where if you're working mom,

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Speaker 1: there just is not a lot of support. It's a

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Speaker 1: world of precarity and scarcity. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: we also live in our world that tells women that

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Speaker 1: we need to do it all. We have to be

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Speaker 1: hashtag girl losses, you know, be successful entrepreneurs, raise our families,

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Speaker 1: be good partners, while also being expected to advertise how

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Speaker 1: great event now we're doing. Doing all of that incompatible

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Speaker 1: stuff on a picture perfect, meticulously curated Instagram feed. It

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Speaker 1: is way too much, and it creates the kind of

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Speaker 1: conditions that can really lead to women being easy prey

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Speaker 1: for scams like Lula Row. Conditions like feeling like you

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Speaker 1: have to be perfect all the time on social media

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Speaker 1: or advertising or branding yourself all the time on social media,

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Speaker 1: Conditions like feeling like you have to do it all,

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Speaker 1: and conditions that lead to burnout. So ahead of our

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Speaker 1: episode this week, breaking down lu La Row and the

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Speaker 1: documentary lu La Rich. I wanted to revisit my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Anne Helen Peterson, author of Can't Even How Millennials

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Speaker 1: became the Burnout Generation? And if you just can't get

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Speaker 1: enough with Ann and I, you can check us both

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Speaker 1: out at Unfinished Live, where I will be doing my

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Speaker 1: very first ever live taping of There Are No Girls

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. Unfinished Live as a convening of technologists, journalists,

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Speaker 1: artists and change makers in person at the Shed in

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Speaker 1: New York City and happening virtually on September. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be two days of talks about how we can all

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Speaker 1: use ethical tech to build a fairer economy and a

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Speaker 1: stronger democracy alongside the leading mind shaping that future. I'll

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Speaker 1: be there alongside other speakers like and Helen Peterson, Charlie

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Speaker 1: Worzel of Galaxy Brain, Sophia Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppress,

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Speaker 1: Shin and Glitch, CEO of Neil dsh Just go to

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Speaker 1: live dot Unfinished dot com and use promo code tangoti

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Speaker 1: for more information. This is gonna be a little bit

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Speaker 1: different of an episode than what we usually do because

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Speaker 1: things aren't normal, and I don't feel normal, and you

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Speaker 1: probably don't feel normal either, if you're anything like me.

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Speaker 1: A combination of never ending to pressing news, I r

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Speaker 1: L events and connections being replaced with more time sitting

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Speaker 1: in front of the computer, and the overall creeping feeling

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Speaker 1: of mounting instability has left to you feeling drained, exhausted, distracted, unmotivated,

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Speaker 1: and burnt out. In her viral BuzzFeed essay called how

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Speaker 1: Millennials Became the Burnout Generation, and Helen Peterson writes, if

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Speaker 1: exhaustion means going to the point where you can't go

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Speaker 1: any further, burnout means reaching that point and pushing yourself

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Speaker 1: to keep going, whether for days, weeks, or years. Burnout

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Speaker 1: isn't just one thing, it's everything. For weeks, I've had

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Speaker 1: a list of things to do that I just can't

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Speaker 1: seem to get done. They roll over to the next week,

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Speaker 1: and I tell myself, we'll do them then, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: I've had a package in the corner of my room

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Speaker 1: that I've meant to return for months, my personal email

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Speaker 1: inboxes where correspondence goes to die. I let emails go unreplied,

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Speaker 1: and then feel awkward about how long it's been since

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Speaker 1: I've replied, so they just go unanswered. While I'm working

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Speaker 1: on this very episode, there's a chime an email added

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Speaker 1: to my seemingly unending inbox. A work Slack message knocks

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Speaker 1: for attention. In the background, a group text motification from

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Speaker 1: friends wanted to confirm a zoom party for this weekend.

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Speaker 1: I'm already feeling out of sorts, so I check Instagram

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Speaker 1: to see if anyone left a nice comment on a

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Speaker 1: picture that I posted of myself appearing to look very

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Speaker 1: centered and chill that was ultimately posted to make myself

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Speaker 1: feel better about my life in the first place, and

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Speaker 1: all of it ends up feeling like a lot of distractions.

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Speaker 1: At night, instead of going to sleep, I doom scroll

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Speaker 1: social media until I pass out. I did to wake

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Speaker 1: up and start the whole thing over in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Is this what my life was meant to be? Like?

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Speaker 1: Everything from work obligation is to leisure activities feeling like

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Speaker 1: a task vying for my attention that I'll never get done.

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Speaker 1: How did we get here? And Helen Peterson writes burnout

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Speaker 1: and the behaviors in weight that accompany it aren't in

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Speaker 1: fact something we can here by going on vacation. It's

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Speaker 1: not limited to workers in acutely high stress environments. And

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Speaker 1: it's not a temporary affliction. It's the millennial condition. It's

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Speaker 1: our base temperature, it's our background music, it's the way

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Speaker 1: things are, it's our lives. And that realization recast my

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Speaker 1: recent struggles. Why can't I get this mundane stuff done

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Speaker 1: because I'm burnt out? Why am I burnt out? Because

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Speaker 1: I've internalized the idea that I should be working all

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Speaker 1: the time. Why have I internalized that idea because everything

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Speaker 1: and everyone in my life reinforced it explicitly and implicitly

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Speaker 1: since I was young. Her essay about millennials and burnout

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Speaker 1: was so impactful she turns it into a new book

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Speaker 1: called Can't Even How Millennials Became the Burnout Generation. In it,

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Speaker 1: she describes that, famili, you're an exhausting feeling of what

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Speaker 1: she calls aaron paralysis, being so overwhelmed that you're not

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Speaker 1: able to get any of these tasks in life done,

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Speaker 1: so you're left feeling perpetually stuck. But our generation was

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Speaker 1: supposed to have it easier than our parents did, and

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Speaker 1: technology was supposed to make our lives better and more fulfilled,

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Speaker 1: not worse. So why are so many of us burnt out?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? I am Anne Helen Peterson, and I

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Speaker 1: write culture study for stub Stack. So one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I was so excited to speak to you

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Speaker 1: today is because I just really have not been like

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Speaker 1: in a good place. I guess I've been feeling stuck.

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Speaker 1: I've had a hundred kind of work things to do,

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Speaker 1: online emails to apply to, these kind of social obligations

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Speaker 1: on Zoom. That's somehow to leave me feeling like more

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Speaker 1: drained than when I started. And the main thing is

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Speaker 1: like nothing was getting done. You know. I would write

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Speaker 1: these to do lists and like they would just carry over,

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Speaker 1: you know, day by day. And when I read your

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Speaker 1: excerpt of your book and Wired, which will put on

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Speaker 1: the show notes, it really just struck me. You know,

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Speaker 1: you start with this rundown of your digital diet, and

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Speaker 1: it was this very familiar and also exhausting mid of

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Speaker 1: you know, little task where you feel like you're kind

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Speaker 1: of never working but at the same time always working.

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Speaker 1: And so I guess my question for you is, I

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Speaker 1: know that when you first started writing your buzzbe piece,

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Speaker 1: that later became the book Can't Even. It was a

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Speaker 1: kind of a way for you to grapple with your own, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, your own issues around burnout and feelings sort

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Speaker 1: of burnt out all the time. What did that feel

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Speaker 1: like for you? What did that look like for you?

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot like what you just described. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we weren't in the pandemic, so like I felt like

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Speaker 1: social interactions weren't nourishing. They just felt like another thing

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Speaker 1: on my to do list. And I felt like that

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Speaker 1: to do list was never ending. Like there were the

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Speaker 1: things that just gave me so much shame because they

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Speaker 1: kept recycling, like one week after or another, that like

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Speaker 1: owners task that really isn't probably that hard, but like

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Speaker 1: just felt like insurmountable um. But then also just like

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Speaker 1: little things like the piddally stuff of life that just

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Speaker 1: kept always being there. And I think, you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: that is the best description of how burnout feels, is

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Speaker 1: that everything becomes like a task to complete instead of

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Speaker 1: you know, your life to live, like there's no highs

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Speaker 1: and no lows. And that's why, you know, there are

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Speaker 1: lots of intersections with like depression and burnout and that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing but I think that it burnout feels

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Speaker 1: to me at least different insomuch as it is so

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Speaker 1: related to your attitude towards work. What are the attitudes

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Speaker 1: about work that you dig into? Is this idea that

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Speaker 1: our jobs have to be both the filling and also

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Speaker 1: quote good jobs, you know, the kind of jobs that

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Speaker 1: your parents would be excited to brad about you having.

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Speaker 1: And you say that social media has really had a

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Speaker 1: hand in building up these fantasy jobs that we should

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Speaker 1: be striving to that are simultaneously both really cool and

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Speaker 1: good jobs. Yeah, I think that younger people have internalized

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Speaker 1: this idea that like jobs should be cool right in

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Speaker 1: some capacity, that whatever your job is, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: passionate job or a job that is like you know

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Speaker 1: on the outside, you're like, oh, I'm just like making

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Speaker 1: deals and like having cool drinks after work. I don't

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Speaker 1: know like people have. It's hard to describe a cool job,

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Speaker 1: you know when you see it. And the way that

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Speaker 1: a job becomes cool is oftentimes through our mediation of

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Speaker 1: it through social media. Right, So that's like everything from

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Speaker 1: taking pictures of your equally cool job mates, like in

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Speaker 1: your cool office space too, you know, even just like

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Speaker 1: taking a picture that describes like how meaningful and rewarding

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Speaker 1: and fulfilling your work is. We are always representing our

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Speaker 1: jobs as I think, far more fulfilling and cool than

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Speaker 1: they actually are. God, that really res dates with me.

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Speaker 1: Something that you write about your piece and I didn't

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Speaker 1: even I did not even really notice I was doing

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Speaker 1: it until I read your piece. Was the way that

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Speaker 1: so not only do we have to have our jobs

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Speaker 1: look cool on social media, but we also have to

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Speaker 1: sort of be constantly using social media to brand ourselves

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Speaker 1: in a kind of way. And so even if you

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Speaker 1: are not working, what you're posting on social media, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a journalist, you want to show you want

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Speaker 1: to use Twitter to show that you're with it, that

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Speaker 1: you're smart, that you're reading good things, and that you're

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Speaker 1: influencing others to read good things and have good takes.

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Speaker 1: But that is actually work, and so it sort of

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Speaker 1: creates this weird thing where your leisure time and your

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Speaker 1: work time are kind of blended because you have to

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Speaker 1: be branding yourself even though that's not work that you're

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Speaker 1: necessarily being paid for it. Kind of we've kind of

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Speaker 1: just blurred these lines of what isn't isn't work, and

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Speaker 1: that we're always sort of working and it's sucking, exhausting. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: the way I think of it is that, like work,

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Speaker 1: the contemporary like feeling of work, like it just seeps

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Speaker 1: into every corner of your life. And when we don't

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Speaker 1: have very good boundaries about like the space between work

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Speaker 1: and non work, that makes it easier for it to

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Speaker 1: slip into like, Oh, I just woke up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to roll over and open up my phone

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Speaker 1: and check my email right now at six am, right

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Speaker 1: or I'm like feeding my kids and I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: like casually scroll through my Slack messages. It just slips

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Speaker 1: into all of those places. And of course the pandemic

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Speaker 1: has has made that slippery noess even you know more so, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how how do you think the pandemic has really made

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Speaker 1: this worse? I know I was reading a piece earlier

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Speaker 1: that said that the time that we have saved by

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Speaker 1: commuting by people who you know, work at home, now

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Speaker 1: we've just filled that with more work. We haven't filled

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Speaker 1: that with leisure time or rest or something else. We've

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Speaker 1: just losed that time. However much that time it would

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Speaker 1: have been that we would be commuting to an office,

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Speaker 1: that's just more work time. Now, yes, absolutely, Like everyone

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Speaker 1: I know who who has recouped rated a commute time

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Speaker 1: by having to be at home, they they are not

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Speaker 1: like using it to Oh I'm just like having some

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Speaker 1: quiet reading time, or I'm meditating, or I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: be really present with my kids, you know, any of

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Speaker 1: those things that like our best selves would want to

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Speaker 1: devote that time too. Instead we're just pushing more work

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Speaker 1: into it. And this certainly happened to me when I

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Speaker 1: moved to Montana in two seventeen. Um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I'm gonna have so much more time

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Speaker 1: to be outside beautiful Montana, Like it's going to be amazing.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to be on the train all the time,

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Speaker 1: like work from home going to be great. And instead

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Speaker 1: I just worked more than I had worked in in years.

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Speaker 1: So being in beautiful Big skuy Montana didn't make you

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Speaker 1: feel less barred, doubt, I mean in some ways right

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Speaker 1: Like I for me, one of the hard things that

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Speaker 1: like daily hard things about living in the city was

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Speaker 1: that like just from the way that I grew up,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in rural Idaho, like being out of

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Speaker 1: the city and in outdoor spaces is like very nourishing

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Speaker 1: and replenishing to me, and it was so hard to

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Speaker 1: find that. Like I mean, I love the parks in

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Speaker 1: New York. They're great. I love parks just in general, fantastic.

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Speaker 1: They are not the same as like being in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere and um, and it was just, you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a car. It was just so hard

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Speaker 1: to to get into those spaces from New York. So

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Speaker 1: I did have that like available you know to me

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Speaker 1: in Montana on a daily basis and especially on the weekends.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, like I think the pictures

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Speaker 1: that I was taking on social media of like all

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Speaker 1: of this beauty, we're a way of trying to tell

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Speaker 1: myself a story of how much more balanced my life was.

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Speaker 1: Like you're telling the world, but you're also telling yourself

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Speaker 1: a story with your social media when in truth, like

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Speaker 1: I was just, um, I was just working all the time.

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Speaker 1: I was traveling constantly for for my job and also

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Speaker 1: for like go speak at colleges and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And and oftentimes I think people who do travel a ton,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to frame that traveling it's like glamorous life right, Like,

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Speaker 1: here I am in the in first class, and you're

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Speaker 1: like the only reason you're in first classes because you

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Speaker 1: travel so much that you get upgraded, and like the

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Speaker 1: only difference in first classes that like your legs don't

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Speaker 1: hurt by the end of the flight. Um, but again,

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Speaker 1: you tell yourself a story in order to like not

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Speaker 1: feel like crap about what the daily existence of your

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Speaker 1: life is. Like, let's take a quick rate and we're back,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you say, um. Part of the problem is

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Speaker 1: that these digital technologies, from cell phones to Apple watches,

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Speaker 1: from Instagram to Slack, encourage our worst habits. They stig

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Speaker 1: me are best laid plans for self preservation. They ransack

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Speaker 1: our free time. They make it increasingly impossible to do

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Speaker 1: things that actually ground us. They turn out run in

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Speaker 1: the woods into an opportunity for self optimization. They're the

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Speaker 1: neediest and most selfish entity in every interaction I have

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Speaker 1: with others. They can compel us to frame experiences as

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Speaker 1: we are experiencing them with future captions, and to conceive

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Speaker 1: of travel as worthwild only when documented for public consumption.

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Speaker 1: And my god, that really, I mean it's true. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I feel like I cannot have an experience if it

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Speaker 1: is not filtered through social media, and that this sounds

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Speaker 1: really fucked up, but that at times it's almost as

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Speaker 1: if if it's not on social media, did it even

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Speaker 1: really happen? Like if I have a lovely experience in

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Speaker 1: the woods, or a lovely experience while camping or hiking,

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Speaker 1: and I'm the only person who knows that it happened,

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Speaker 1: did it even really happen? Yeah? Absolutely right, And of

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Speaker 1: course it happened, because what actually matters is how it

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Speaker 1: made you feel. But I think we've gotten so distance

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Speaker 1: from that, Like the only way to know how it

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Speaker 1: made us feel is how we're able to present it.

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Speaker 1: Feel like, oh, I didn't get any good photos of that.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's such a like it doesn't matter, right,

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Speaker 1: What actually matters is the time that you spend with

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Speaker 1: other people at the time you spent by yourself in

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Speaker 1: like a beautiful space. But somehow for it to to

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Speaker 1: seem important, to seem like it was worth our time

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Speaker 1: not working, we have to make frame it in a

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Speaker 1: certain way for public consumption, right. And another thing that

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Speaker 1: you write about that I I really like is the

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Speaker 1: way that we've kind of our hobbies now need to

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Speaker 1: be framed through that kind of framework, Like you write

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Speaker 1: about how you know, when you started gardening as a hobby,

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Speaker 1: if you could, if you couldn't make your garden look

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Speaker 1: nice enough quote unquote nice enough. For social media, it's

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Speaker 1: a little it feels like you didn't really do it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm a podcaster. I mostly do it

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Speaker 1: because that's a medium that I love, But I feel

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Speaker 1: this pressure just sort of you know, be using the

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Speaker 1: podcast to or using the medium to sort of like

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Speaker 1: pitch myself as a product instead of just like exploring

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Speaker 1: a medium that I love. And I feel like we've

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Speaker 1: gotten to a place where the things that we're meant

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Speaker 1: to be doing for leisure are kind of viewed through

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Speaker 1: this lens of either a having them be some sort

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Speaker 1: of side hustle, because you can't just you know, do

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Speaker 1: something to do, but it has to be a business

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Speaker 1: entity or be that we're doing it only to be

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Speaker 1: consumed consumed by others on social media, and it really

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Speaker 1: it kind of robs us of this opportunity for actual

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Speaker 1: reflective leisure time. Yeah, totally, for I think for reflective

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Speaker 1: leisure time, which you know, I oftentimes there's like different

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Speaker 1: kinds of leisure and everyone has to know what it

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Speaker 1: is nourishing for them, and some of us like we've forgotten, right,

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Speaker 1: Like we've spent so much time mediating it that you're like,

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Speaker 1: what do I actually like? Right? Like, if you if

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Speaker 1: you're only doing it for yourself, what what do you

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Speaker 1: want to do? And that's that's hard to recover, I think, um,

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Speaker 1: and then it also it robs you of you know, reflection,

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Speaker 1: just in terms of like change, you know, I thought

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Speaker 1: a lot of about some of the frustration that people

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Speaker 1: have about what to post about Black lives matter? Right Like,

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Speaker 1: do I like, okay, so the black the black square

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Speaker 1: is wrong? But what should I post? Is this being

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Speaker 1: too much? Is this not being enough? Like if if

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Speaker 1: I'm a black person, do people look to me to

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Speaker 1: like figure out what I'm posting? And are they like

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Speaker 1: weirded out if I'm not posting? There's just so much

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Speaker 1: compulsion instead of people actually trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: would it actually look like to be an ally right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's funny that you mentioned this. I felt so much.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say anxiety. I felt so much something.

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Speaker 1: Let's just use the word tention, even though that doesn't

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Speaker 1: even feel like the right word in the moment that

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Speaker 1: we had around Black Lives Matter and racial reckoning, a

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Speaker 1: with people asking me like, oh, I posted this, do

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Speaker 1: you think it's right? And then be the feeling of

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Speaker 1: being sort of like like looked too for you know,

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Speaker 1: a model of what people should it or shouldn't be posting.

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Speaker 1: I got so much sort of tension and anxiety around

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Speaker 1: that that opening opening Instagram or opening my social media

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Speaker 1: just added this, you know, for an already fraught moment

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Speaker 1: for me as a black woman. It added this this

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Speaker 1: extra level of just tension and and anxiety that I

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Speaker 1: really couldn't navigate to the point where I was just like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to engage with this online. Like I will,

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Speaker 1: I will use the platforms that I feel comfortable using.

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Speaker 1: But I can't. I can't. This is I can't show

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Speaker 1: up like this online. It's just too draining. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: Like you're trying to deal with like what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: in the world, and then you have to drain deal

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Speaker 1: with like the secondary annoyances, like even if you're not

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Speaker 1: intending to like sign on and be annoyed, Like there's

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Speaker 1: just things that people are going to be doing that

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Speaker 1: are like going to be, like you said, tension, like

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Speaker 1: it's going to create this tension that you don't actually need.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like not signing, did you feel like

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Speaker 1: you were missing something? Or did it feel good? That's

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Speaker 1: a great question. It felt good only when I told

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Speaker 1: myself that I wasn't going to care what people thought

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Speaker 1: on social media, Like I knew what I was doing,

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Speaker 1: Like I in my day job, I work for a

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Speaker 1: feminist organization that was very much involved in, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the movement for Black Lives stuff, So

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Speaker 1: I know, I know that I was like doing the

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Speaker 1: work there. I know that I was showing up at

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Speaker 1: protests and like helping where I could. Um. I also

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Speaker 1: going out physically in protest for protest was a little

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Speaker 1: bit tough for me because I'm ammunial compromise, and so

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Speaker 1: that was the whole thing. And so once I told myself,

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Speaker 1: you know, I know in my real life where I

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Speaker 1: stand and what I'm doing, and if anybody thinks anything

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Speaker 1: good or bad about what I have or have not

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Speaker 1: posted on social media, that is their problem. Reminding myself

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Speaker 1: of that constantly and constantly and constantly, like that was

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Speaker 1: the only way that I could show up in a

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Speaker 1: way that felt not shitty. Yeah, well, and that's the thing, right,

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Speaker 1: like you were figuring it out, like you were actually

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Speaker 1: figuring it out for yourself instead of figuring it out

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Speaker 1: like visa vir reactions to other people's social media accounts.

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Speaker 1: Right like that to me is really difficult for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people to write out. They're so out of

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Speaker 1: practice at like authentically figuring out their stance and how

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Speaker 1: they want to position themselves. Does that make sense? It

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00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: makes so much sense. And I think, like like you said,

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Speaker 1: right now, because of the pandemic and because of the

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Speaker 1: difficulty that some people have who would want to show

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Speaker 1: up in person for a march or demonstration or something

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Speaker 1: like and then they just physically cannot um that a

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Speaker 1: lot of those messages get mixed, and so you feel

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Speaker 1: a compulsion like I need to somehow signal that I

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Speaker 1: want to be there, and so how do you signal

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Speaker 1: it without overly signaling it? So, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: like being especially like people who are how do I

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Speaker 1: put this? Um, I think spending some time with yourself

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Speaker 1: to actually figure out, you know, do how do I

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Speaker 1: perform in a way that actually expresses my allyhood instead

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Speaker 1: of or like my devotion to this cause instead of

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Speaker 1: thinking about how do I signal my devotion to this cause?

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Definitely? Yeah, it's funny. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you you put that so well. I was just I

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Speaker 1: was just reading the part of your essay that's about

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Speaker 1: slack and how so much of slack is like signaling

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Speaker 1: that we are working and not actually doing the work.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, I'm thumb nothing my coworkers comment,

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Speaker 1: or I'm dropping in a link. Social media has and

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00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: all of these different technologies have given us ways to

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Speaker 1: signal that we care about the cause, or signal that

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Speaker 1: we're paying attention and checked in without actually be like

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00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: doing the thing. Yeah, exactly, And that's it. Just if

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Speaker 1: you take up all this time signaling instead of actually

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Speaker 1: doing like that, it evacuates there, Like it evacuates your

430
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: actions of any sort of intent or power I think.

431
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: And so whether that's slack, like you don't have time

432
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: to work because you're so busy trying to show that

433
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: you're working on slack, I cannot tell you how great

434
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: it is not to be on slack, Like obviously I

435
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: missed like chatting with my coworkers. But when I left

436
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 1: BuzzFeed in August, like suddenly there wasn't that thing that

437
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: made me feel like, oh, I guess I should like

438
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: I haven't said anything for like half an hour. I

439
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: guess I should like say something. It's just compulsory, and

440
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: that is I think what's oftentimes frustrating is that like, yes,

441
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: I was working, I didn't need to do with thumbs

442
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: up like he said yeah. And I think as as

443
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: like creative professionals, it can be so fraught because you know,

444
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: nobody just sits down in front of the computer and

445
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: like a perfect draft spills out of you and you

446
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: know in twenty minutes or something. But I do feel

447
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: like the time that you spend thinking and sitting in

448
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: one of your computer and like I dating or whatever,

449
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: that's all part of it, but it can feel kind

450
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: of rot. It gives me this like anxiety where it's like, oh,

451
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: I have to like overperformed to show that I worked,

452
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: that I was actually working that and not to scooping off.

453
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: And it is kind of a part of me like

454
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: telling myself that I'm not cooping off, even though somewhere

455
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: deep down I know it. It's like this constant thing

456
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: that's such an added distraction from just getting my fucking

457
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: work done well. And I think we oftentimes told ourselves

458
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: stories about work has to look like a certain sort

459
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: of thing, right like instead of work can also look

460
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: like staring into space, where it can look like taking

461
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: a walk. Work can work like not working, um, and

462
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: that has been really hard to especially those of us

463
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: who work in creative fields. It's really hard to understand

464
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: because to us, work is you are sitting in front

465
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: of the computer and you are doing something on that

466
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: computer screen. And it doesn't have to be that way.

467
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: So I want to talk a little bit about how

468
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: did we get to this place? You know, when I

469
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: ready your piece, it really resonated with me. And I

470
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: think the fact that your your buzz vpiece went meta

471
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: viral shows that we're not alone in having these tasks

472
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: that pile up, feeling this this air in paralysis when

473
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 1: you can't get anything done. How did we how did

474
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: millennials get to this place where we're all so burned out? Well,

475
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: I think the way that I try to position in

476
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: the book is so much of it has to do

477
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: with instability, with procarity, and so that's what bonds people

478
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: who are you know, working three different gig jobs right now,

479
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: and people who are estensively a middle class but are

480
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: super over indebted both in terms of student debt and

481
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: consumer debt, and still really struggling to figure out like

482
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: how am I going to cover rent next month? Or

483
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: how am I going to find childcare next month? And

484
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 1: the difference, of course, is that middle class people can

485
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: oftentimes throw money at a problem and do have some

486
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: some sort of a safety net either in terms of

487
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: family bonds, like they can you know, you could always

488
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: move back into that basement, and not everyone has that.

489
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: But still, what we're trying to do is keep trading water,

490
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: and so the energy required to keep trading water oftentimes

491
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: that means like feeling like you have to work all

492
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: the time. That means taking your leisure time and optimizing

493
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: it or monetizing it in some way. And that also

494
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: means throwing a lot of time at parenting because you're

495
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: trying to reproduce your own semblance of stability for the

496
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: next generation. Yeah, it's funny. I know that you've written

497
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: about the ways that parenting has a lot to do

498
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: with millennial burn out, and something I found so interesting

499
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: is how this cuts across raith and class lines. It

500
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: just looks differently for different people, depending on their background

501
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: and situations. I know, for me, you know, we grew

502
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: up pretty comfortably, but my mom was the first person

503
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: in her family to go to college. We grew up

504
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: in a black, Southern family. And for them, they were like,

505
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, we want our kids to not you know,

506
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: quote unquote become statistics. And the way to get the

507
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: way to achieve that is through college and a stable job.

508
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: And so the same way the upper middle class white

509
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: parent who was interested in their kid going to an

510
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: ivy league college, it's sort of the same, even though

511
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: the cultural and racial, you know, reasonings for getting there

512
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: are different, it's sort of the same thing. Where this

513
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: parenting then sets kids up for this idea that like

514
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: the most important thing is getting a stable job, going

515
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: to college, that pathway, and it really can lead to

516
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: kids being raised almost as little adults. Yeah, totally, And

517
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: a lot of that is motivated. And I try to

518
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: do this a bit in the book. It's it is,

519
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: as you said, like, it's motivated by not wanting your

520
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: kids to take a step back from where you've gone,

521
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: right and our parents generation, uh, you know, a lot

522
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: of them had reached that that middle class stability some

523
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: semblance of that middle class stability, sometimes for the first

524
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: time in their family history. And sometimes that was through

525
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: going to college and getting a job after that, and

526
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: sometimes it was through like getting a good union job

527
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: and having stability that way. And so the goal is, Okay, well,

528
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to fall back from where

529
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: I've come, and so you try to imprint all of

530
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: these strategies for success instability, and and you know sometimes

531
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: too and this I found this in my interviews, like

532
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: sometimes people's parents didn't give a ship right, like they

533
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: were like, whatever, you'll figure it out, But the kids

534
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: themselves really picked up through osmosis, you know, from their kids,

535
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: their peers, from their peers, parents, from their teachers, that

536
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: that was the only way that they had to turn

537
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: themselves into a walking resume, even if their parents didn't care. Yeah,

538
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that this is like reinforced both explicitly

539
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: and implicitly, Like we're just told that this is how

540
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: you're meant to live life, like you're meant to your

541
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: meant your job is meant to be your every thing.

542
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: Your identity should be this job, and you should be

543
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: working seven when you're not working. You should be feeling

544
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: guilty about networking or you know, turn whatever. You know,

545
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: if you if you're a bake if you like enjoy

546
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: cooking on the weekends, that should be a business or

547
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: an Instagram page or something that you can never just

548
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: not be you should never be not optimized for working

549
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: or something that looks like working. Yeah, and well, and

550
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: think about that though, Like what was it you know,

551
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: my uh, like my mom would make bread on the weekends,

552
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: but she wasn't like, oh, I need to try to

553
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: like hustle on the side to like make a couple

554
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: of extra dollars. And what it was is that like

555
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: they were able to, you know, pay off my dad's

556
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: student loans, Like they were able to buy a house

557
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: in North Idaho. Like they weren't struggling constantly to cover

558
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: the costs of raising a family, Whereas because of incredible

559
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: increases in the cost of living, the cost of childcare,

560
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: the cost of healthcare, so many families that have like

561
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: dual income streams are still struggling and are like, Okay,

562
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: I gotta make an extra fifty dollars every weekend by

563
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: making bread. Yeah, that's something that I think you do

564
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: a nice job. Of illustrating is how in our generation,

565
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: millennials and older millennials, like a lot of us graduated

566
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: into the Great Recession, you know, the dot com burst,

567
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: now the instability of COVID. I feel, like so many

568
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: of us, we have never had the luxury of making

569
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: choices about our life based on security. Like every choice,

570
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: every professional choice I've made, has been based on scarcities

571
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: and based on my back is against the wall. Some

572
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: calamity is happening that's completely out of my control, and

573
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: I have to make my professional choices based on this scarcity.

574
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: And we have no idea sort of what it looks

575
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: like to be making a life at a time of stability.

576
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: I don't even really I can't even like grasp that.

577
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: It's so true. And I think, like, especially people who

578
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: work in more creative fields, like there's this expectation to that,

579
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: like the company you work for is going to fold,

580
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: Like you know, you're not going to have any sort

581
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: of stable job, Like you can't expect a job to

582
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: endure in the way that a lot of our parents

583
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: like started one job and stayed at that job for

584
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: many decades, or like my grandfather worked at one company

585
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: his entire life, right, um, And I think that that

586
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: over our chain procarity so much of it, you know,

587
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: it comes from entering into the economy as adults during

588
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: the first Great Recession and then also just like expecting

589
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: the other shoe to drop. Like most millennials I know

590
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: are not surprised by the pandemic. They're like, we're just

591
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: waiting for everything to collapse. And to me, that shows

592
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: a psychology that is conditioned towards procarity, right, It's conditioned

593
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: towards never feeling like you have a stability. And what

594
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: that does I think over the course of you know,

595
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: many millions of people over the course of a generation.

596
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: And I think it's going to affect gen z as well.

597
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: Is it it makes it hard to to be confident,

598
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: to experiment, to take risks, you know, like when people

599
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: talk about what having a universal basic income does, or

600
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: even having health insurance that's not tied to employment. Is

601
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: what it does is it allows you to make decisions

602
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: that make life easier for you, right, that make it

603
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: so that you can find a job that doesn't feel

604
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: shitty and exploited of um. And it allows you to

605
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: go back to school if you want to. You know,

606
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of things that having even just

607
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: that modicum of stability permits for people, and we are

608
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: so deeply unfamiliar with that. So how do we get

609
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: to a place where instability is not the internalized norm

610
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: for an entire generation? I mean, create a lot more

611
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: social safety nets. So the big thing that's changed between

612
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: our parents and grandparents generation and now is that so

613
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: many of those social safety nets have been eroded. And

614
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm talking about like, uh, you know, pretty basic things

615
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: like the fact that we have legislators have just largely

616
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: defunded so much funding for public education and so like

617
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: because you have so much student debt that makes it

618
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: harder to you know, if you lose a job, you're like,

619
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: well gonna default on these loans, right, But then also

620
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: just thinking about things like um funding for some funding

621
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: that has never existed, but funding for things like universal

622
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: pre k or even before pre k uh mandatory paternity leave,

623
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: universal health care, like things that are not alien to

624
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: most developed countries across the world. Like these are things

625
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: that actually make life feel like you're not conditioned to precarity.

626
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 1: But I think that we are so obsessed with this

627
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: myth of the individual and somehow if the individual can

628
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: work harder, then you'll get out of precarity. But this

629
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: is why millennials are having these sort of existential crisis.

630
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: So myself included, is you get to this point if

631
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: you're late thirties, right, like the oldest millennials are thirty

632
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: nine and forty, and you're like, wait, I thought by

633
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: this point I would have found some stability, And you're like,

634
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: wait a second, like I have kids, or I have

635
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: been you know, been in the workforce for almost twenty years,

636
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: Like where's that stability? Why isn't it here yet, and

637
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: becoming deeply disillusioned and saying like, well, this is just broken.

638
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: We need to fix this entirely. Oh my gosh. It's

639
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: like I I go back and watch these movies that

640
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: I loved in the nineties when I when I watched

641
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: Someone I was young, and all of the main characters

642
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: need to be like twenty five and having some like

643
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: fantastic job or like having a lot of existential dread

644
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: that fact by the fact that they're not, you know,

645
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: but they're turning twenty eight and they don't have their

646
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: life together. And here I am in my mid thirties

647
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: thinking like like, oh, we thought we were gonna have

648
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: stable jobs, stable partner's own houses by the town. We

649
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: we're like twenty five. That like, that was the framework

650
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: we were working with. What is the one? Isn't it

651
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: like my best friend's wedding? There? So funny? So funny?

652
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: Oh more, after a quick right, let's get right back

653
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: to it. The millennial generation is one of the first

654
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: generations where it's not a given that we'll have things

655
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: better than our parents had it. And yet there was

656
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: this attitude where millennials were all lazy or entitled little brats,

657
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: were all whiners. How do we combat those attitudes? Well?

658
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: I do think that the messaging is kind of shifted,

659
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: and part of that is, of course that millennials are

660
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: now like at the helmet a lot of different publications,

661
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: but just the idea that like millennials have kind of

662
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: been screwed is becoming more are uh popular, I think.

663
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: But then at the same time, I think a lot

664
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: of it has to do or the way that we

665
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: can change minds about this is actually having conversations with

666
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: people who are you know, our relatives who are are here,

667
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: like people who are older than us, that we can

668
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: actually feel like we can have a real conversation with

669
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: about like, here's tell me about what it was like

670
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: when you had worked your way through college, which is

671
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: always the common refrain, right, which is like, I don't

672
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: know why you took out all the student debt. I

673
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: managed to work my way through college. And you're like, okay,

674
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: so how much did you make a semester? How many

675
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: hours did you work? And then you're like, and here's

676
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: how many hours someone would have to work in order

677
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: to work their way through a state college today, right,

678
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: And those things don't add up. But sometimes you need

679
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: to sit someone down and be like, here's how things

680
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: have substantively changed, and like you can do it without

681
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: turning it into like a math lecture, but you can

682
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: be like, here's how the cost of living hasn't changed, right, like,

683
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: or like the ore raises haven't um been accompanied by

684
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: changes in for cost of living or even inflation that

685
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But you know, one of the things

686
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: that I tried to do a little bit was create

687
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of empathy by being like, you know,

688
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: boomers were burnt out in some capacity too, because they

689
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: had grown up in this time of unprecedented economic stability,

690
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: and then as they entered the job market in the

691
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 1: nineties seventies, they experienced those first waves supercarity, and we're

692
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: responding to them and so like if anything, you know,

693
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: part of the reason boomers and millennials have such a

694
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: difficult relationship is because I think we are pretty similar

695
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: in a lot of foundational ways. I think that's a

696
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: good point. I think coming come having it come down

697
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: to empathy and having real conversations about what things looked

698
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: like because I don't know. I think about folks who

699
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: are you know, the generation you know after me, and

700
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: I want them to know we had a hard time.

701
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: I don't want them to feel as if I want

702
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: them to know that if they are struggling to figure

703
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: it out, that we also struggled to figure it out.

704
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't want them to feel like they're alone, or

705
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: that they're a whiner, or that they're you know, they

706
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: make their they have some sort of individual failing if

707
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: they can't figure it out, because I do think every

708
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: generation has has their issues with that totally well. And

709
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm seeing, you know, two different kind of discourses come

710
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: out of gen Z and one of them is like,

711
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: you guys were sold a false bill of goods we're

712
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: going to reject that bill of goods. Right, It's like

713
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: we actually think you can like have a different sort

714
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: of life, that college maybe isn't the most important thing

715
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: in the world, that we can do something about climate change,

716
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: that you know, everything isn't interractable. So and I'm always

717
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: hurted by it, by that posture. But then I also

718
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: see some some like stuff that's like, oh my gosh,

719
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: why are millennials such whiner? Right, Like they just need

720
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: a work harder? And I'm like, don't you dare? So

721
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: I think hopefully by creating not just empathy but actual solidarity, right,

722
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: being like, it doesn't have to be this way for us,

723
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be this way for you either.

724
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: How can we work together to change it? You make

725
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: this point a lot on your work that I love

726
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: that sometimes when we feel like we don't have a

727
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: lot of power, leaning into the collective, whether it's joining

728
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: a union, which I know more and more young people

729
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: are supportive of, or just sharing honest experiences with each

730
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: other can really be the antidote to some of the

731
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: problems that you lay out, you know, the collective, you know,

732
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: feeling like you're part of the United collective can really

733
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: make you feel a lot more powerful and less alone totally.

734
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: And it doesn't fix everything, but it does make you

735
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: feel like, I mean, this is the word, right, it

736
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: makes you feel a little less alone, like it makes

737
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: you feel like you're not just fighting this problem on

738
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: your own. So much of the writing and content that

739
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: I see around burnout, particularly geared toward women, will always

740
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: have some sort of individual little thing that like, oh,

741
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: this is going to be the silver bullet or the

742
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: magic bullet that that helps you figure it out. So

743
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: whether it's using your meditation app or you know, doing

744
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: your self care manicure, or you know, quit your nine

745
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: to five and be your own girl boss. And I

746
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: am my own boss, and I can tell you that

747
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: my boss sucks. Working for her is not great all

748
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: the time, you know. And I can't think, you know,

749
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: it's it's not these individual choices or actions that are

750
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: going to save us from something that is systemic, that

751
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: is that is bigger than us. And you know, I

752
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: think the real issue is capitalism, you know. And I

753
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: guess my question is how a how do we get

754
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: to a place where we unlearn that it's an like

755
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: we are doing something wrong individually. If we are feeling

756
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: burnt out and be how can we go forward knowing

757
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: that the real issue is so much bigger than us,

758
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. So there was a critique of

759
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: the book that was, like, this book doesn't talk enough

760
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: about therapy, right, And I get it because I do

761
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: think that a lot of the neuroses that millennials have developed,

762
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: a lot of them are things that like we need

763
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: to work through on the personal level, um, through therapy

764
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: if possible, even though therapy is not accessible to so

765
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: many people. Um. But I also think that, like we've

766
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: been taught oftentimes that like, oh, if you have a

767
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: problem with this work play scenario, that's a personal problem,

768
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: instead of thinking about like, oh, well everyone I work

769
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: with has this problem with this workplace, so maybe it's

770
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: a workplace problem, right, like, or all of these people

771
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: feel the same way in society right now. Instead of

772
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: that being a personal problem, it's societal problem. It's not

773
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: something that you can just work through on your own.

774
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: And also, almost every millennial I know who burnt out,

775
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: who is burnt out, is either going to therapy or

776
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: has been going to therapy. Right, It's not like therapy,

777
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: it's going to solve those larger issues as well. And

778
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: so what we have to think about is what are

779
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: these systems that are that are making everything so sucky? Right? Like?

780
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: What are what are the systems that make the scenario

781
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: that leads us to burn out? And I'm hardened actually

782
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: by even just like the willingness for us to say

783
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: things like capitalism allowed, Like even ten years ago, it

784
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: was kind of like a like third rail, like oh

785
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: are you a socialist? Like, oh, are you part of

786
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: the occupying movement to like talk about capitalism as this problem?

787
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: Whereas now, like I mean, in part of it, I

788
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: think is the success of memes and even just like

789
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: all over TikTok and Twitter, like you see a very

790
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: clear indictment of capitalism as the source of a lot

791
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: of our ills. And I think that, like you know,

792
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: regardless of my personal politics, which are like much more

793
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: radical than anything that I can see us implementing in

794
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: the United States in our lifetime, I do think that

795
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: there are ways to make capitalism work for the worker,

796
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: and that that is possible, and that there are plans

797
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: or policy suggestions that can make that possible and we

798
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: can do it. The big first step is regime change.

799
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: So even though it's hokey to say, like we have

800
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: to vote, like we have to resume change, and then

801
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: we have to make some big changes and be willing

802
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: to make ourselves amenable to those changes, not just incremental ones,

803
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: but things that might feel scary, um, because they're going

804
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: to reorganize our lives, and I think for the better.

805
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: So I might have to ask, you know, in your

806
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: in the excerpts that I read, you talked about feeling

807
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: so burnt out and how writing that BuzzFeed piece was

808
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: in a in a way trying to kind of come

809
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: to terms with that. How has that how has that

810
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: looked like for your personal journey? Are you still feeling

811
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 1: that way where you give me give me a check in, Well,

812
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: I'm pretty burnt out in the moment, I think because

813
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm trying to wrestle starting like this newsletter that I'm

814
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: doing is basically like be made my own shitty boss,

815
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: like you said, but then also letting getting this book

816
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: out into the world, which requires a lot of talking

817
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: about the book, which I find incredibly gratifying, but it

818
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: also is time right um. And and then trying to

819
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: think to the future about other big projects like whether

820
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: that's books or whatever. And it was all really amplified

821
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: for me a couple of weeks ago when the smoke

822
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: got so bad out here in the West and I

823
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: realized that, like the one release valve that I had

824
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: cultivated over the course of just general work stress but

825
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: also like COVID and quarantine stress, was being able to

826
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: go outside. And when that was taken away from me

827
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: for a week, I was just like, I I have nothing,

828
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: Like I'm collapsing under the weight of this this house

829
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: of cards that I've built for myself. And I think

830
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: that drove home to me, like just how fragile things were,

831
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: Like I've the balance was in my life of trying

832
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: to keep working and some sort of release uh at

833
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: the same time. But I mean the thing for myself like, no,

834
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: of course I'm not cure to burnout. But what I

835
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: can do is I can recognize burnout behaviors more easily.

836
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: They can try to like see them for what they

837
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: are and just kind of not judge them, but be like, Okay,

838
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: how can I maybe shift a couple of things just

839
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: quietly in my life to to try to change that

840
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: um And you know, talking about it definitely makes it

841
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: feel better. I agree. I have to tell you you're

842
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: You're writing and burnout made me feel you know. We

843
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: talked about the collective and feeling less alone. Just knowing

844
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: that I'm not the only person who feels such incredible

845
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: shame around my atrocious inbox or my inability to just

846
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: get simple ship done, or the package that's been in

847
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: the back of my car for six months. Just knowing

848
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: that it's not just me really gave me the power

849
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: to just start thinking about it and talking about it honestly,

850
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: like like, I really you feel like you opened up

851
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: that space for so many people, myself included to do that.

852
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: So I'm so grateful for your work. Yeah, I think

853
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: it was something that a lot of us were ashamed

854
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: of for a long time. It's like we there was

855
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: this idea that you had to somehow be like doing

856
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: all the ship right, like that you had to like

857
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: keeping it all be keeping it all together at all times.

858
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, even the people who are like, oh,

859
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm so authentic on Instagram or whatever like that is

860
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: such a performance of like messiness, Like it's not actual

861
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: messiness or vulnerability. And so I just hope that we

862
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: can continue to have this conversation in all of the

863
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: different directions it takes us, and also continue to be

864
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: really piste off about it because I want to use

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00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: that anger, uh and use it to push us towards change.

866
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: Nothing we're dealing with right now is normal. So if

867
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: you're feeling burnt out or like you can't get anything

868
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: done or you can't find any motivation, that's okay. One

869
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: of us are operating under normal circumstances, and you shouldn't

870
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: expect yourself to perform like we are. How have you

871
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: been dealing with burnout? Hit us up at Hello at

872
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: tangodi dot com and let us know if you're interested

873
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: in issues like culture and tech and media, and you

874
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: probably are. If you're listening to this podcast, don't miss

875
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: Unfinished Live. You can hear Anne Helen Peterson in conversation

876
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: with Charlie Worzel on the future of work, Sophia Noble,

877
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: author of Algorithms of Oppression, on equity and tech, Casey

878
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: Newton on the Creator Academy, and Neil Dash with a

879
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: rallying cry for a free digital future. All Out Unfinished

880
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 1: Live September happening live at the Shed in New York

881
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: and for those of you who can't attend in person,

882
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: don't worryry, We got you. The talks on live podcasts,

883
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: including our very first ever live Tangoti taping, will be

884
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: available to stream virtually as well. It's a great opportunity

885
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: to learn about how we can all use ethical tech

886
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: to build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy, alongside

887
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: the leading mind shaping that future. The in person experience

888
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: includes two days of talk by leading thinkers, live podcast

889
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: recordings like my Own, an interactive audio experiment, clubhouse conversations

890
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: on I'm mers of art, installation, networking opportunities, and more.

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Speaker 1: Just go to a live dot unfinished dot com and

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Speaker 1: use promo code tangodi. That's t A N G O

893
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Speaker 1: T I and I cannot wait to see all there

894
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Speaker 1: got a story about an interesting thing in tech or

895
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at

896
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

897
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No

898
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget tod

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00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative

900
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our

901
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

902
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Todd. If you want to help

903
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For

904
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, check out the iHeart

905
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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts,

906
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: And then I have to w