1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Sleepwalkers is a production of iHeart Media and Unusual Productions. 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: We're in the Democratic Republic of Congo. We're in the 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: south of the country, in a region that very famous 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: for its copper and cobalt reserves. It's an area of 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: beautiful expanses of rolling hills peppered with shrubs and trees. 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: The grounders dry and dusty, and there are at lease 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: of dust storms that are whipped up from the minds 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: that dot the region. That's Nicholas Niakos speaking. He's a 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: journalist who recently wrote a piece for The New Yorker 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: magazine under the headline the dark Side of Congo's Cobalt Rush. 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: I think that often reporters described places as dusty in 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: order to give them atmosphere. I try not to do that, 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: but you can't really help but notice the dust, because, 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: especially in the dry season, nose gets plugged with it, 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: and this dust has very very high concentration of heavy 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: metals and even radioactive material. I wanted to know what 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: took Nicholas to dusty Kolwzy, a city of about half 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: a million people in the mineral rich south of the 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo. I was interested in working on 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: cobalts after reading about some of the shenanigans in the 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: mining industry, people who have made incredible amounts of money 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: in one of the poorest countries of Africa, and that 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: really took me to this question of who are the 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: people actually doing the mining? And in cool Weazy Nicholas 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: met those people, men, women, and in some cases children. 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: I met this child called Zicki who worked as a 27 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: child miner. He worked from the age of three in 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: some of the minds and he had this terrible experience 29 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: m hmm. Was talking about how he mutually been beaten. 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: He was talking about how terrifying going down the minds was, 31 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: and at one point I took out my cell phone. 32 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: I said, listen to a new phone like this in 33 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: the US goes for over a thousand dollars. Then he 34 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: said something like, it really pains me to hear that. 35 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: It really hurts me deep down my soul. Don't made 36 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: him sad. I think he thought that the people buying 37 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: these phones didn't understand the suffering of people like him. 38 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: In this bonus episode, we look at the relationship between 39 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: cobalt lithium ion batteries and the hidden labor upon which 40 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: so much technology that we all live by is built. 41 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: I'm as Veloshin and this is Sleepwalkers. So Carrot's great 42 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: to see you. It's been a long while. Although that 43 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: was a rather bleak and sobering introduction. It definitely was 44 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: a bleak and so we're in introduction. But it's very 45 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: good to be back on Sleepwalkers and to to see 46 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: you after all this time. So this is, on the 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: face of it, a bit of an unusual story for us. 48 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: We don't normally cover mining on Sleepwalkers, and yet there's 49 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: this extraordinary story that recently came out in the New 50 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: Yorker Full Disclosure, written by a friend of mine, Nicholas, 51 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: and it's about children mining toxic cobalt in the Democratic 52 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: Republic of Congo, and some of this cobalt reportedly ends 53 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: up in the lithium and batteries that power our tesla's well. 54 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: I don't actually have a Tesla, but I do have 55 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: an Efe. I definitely have an iPhone. I've talked a 56 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: lot about my iPhone addiction here. I've been very open 57 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: and vulnerable about it. Um Actually, to me, this is 58 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: a quintessential Sleepwalker story and that we're looking at multiple 59 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: large technology companies touting progress innovation and even in some cases, 60 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: like with Tesla, efforts to rely on more sustainable technology. 61 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: But there is a dark underbelly that exposes the limits 62 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: of breakneck innovation. But that's sort of the history of innovation. Well, 63 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: it's funny you joked about your iPhone addiction. I mean, 64 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: of course there's a lot of tech coverage. What are 65 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: these things doing to our children? We see very clearly 66 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: from Nick's reporting what these things are doing to other 67 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: people's children. Not everyone's blind to what's going on. According 68 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: to the piece in the New Yorker, is actually a 69 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: lawsuit in Washington right now where some attorneys from the 70 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: International Rights advocates are suing Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft, and 71 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: Tesla for the deaths and injuries of children. And I 72 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: just want to read to you from the complaint. These 73 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: boys are working under stone age conditions, for paltry wages 74 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: and at immense personal risk to provide cobalt. The hundreds 75 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: of billions of dollars generated by the defendants each year 76 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: would not be possible without cobalt mind in the Democratic 77 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: Republic of Congo. Now, to be clear, this is a complaint, 78 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: not a judgment, but it's absolutely shocking. Absolutely. Our President 79 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: Joe Biden recently signed an executive order aimed at addressing 80 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: supply chain issues for rare earth minerals that the United 81 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: States rely on from other nations. Um. There was actually 82 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: a recent article in the New York Times that said 83 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: that the United States lags far behind other countries in 84 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: manufacturing many clean energy technologies, which leaves US heavily reliant 85 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: on imports. I think the Biden administration is rightfully focused 86 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: on the sort of greeny of America, but I think 87 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: that they are probably less preoccupied with what we are 88 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: now seeing as a standout human rights issue, and that 89 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: that's why I appreciate this article. Nicholas has written, well, 90 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: part of it is the greening of America and the 91 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: other part is competition with China. Right, So there's this 92 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: kind of undertone in the piece of a new great 93 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: game or a competition for scarce resources. And indeed, many 94 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: of the companies that own and operate cobalt mines in 95 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: the DRC are Chinese, but the trick is they sell 96 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: to American companies. So you have this kind of hypocrisy 97 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: where American big tech companies love to kind of hold 98 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: up China as this threat as to the reason they 99 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: can't be regulated because the U s would fall behind. 100 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: And at the same time, they are using the output 101 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: of Chinese companies mining cobalt in the Democratic Republic of 102 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: Congo to power some of the most iconic and profitable 103 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: consumer products that we have in this country, from the 104 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: iPhone to the Tesla. Yeah. I think what's so interesting 105 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: is like, it's not so much about staying competitive with China, 106 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: it's about staying competitive at all. And I think without China, 107 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: American technology companies don't have a shot at being profitable 108 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: in the way that they are now. And I think 109 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: that it is sort of high time that we call 110 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: attention to that when we come back. Nicholas takes us 111 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: deep into cobalt mining in the DRC and explains just 112 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: how the output of the minds there ends up in 113 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: our pockets in the form of our phones. For decades, 114 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: cobalt has been a crucial industrial element, used in everything 115 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: from shipbuilding two airplane engines. In fact, during the Cold War, 116 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: there was a proxy conflict in the DRC between the 117 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: US and the Soviet Union, reportedly fueled in part by 118 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: competition over co boalt, and demand has not slowed down 119 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: far from it. In the last twelve months alone, the 120 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: price of cobalt has doubled, and much of the demand 121 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: is stoked by its use in the manufacturing of lithiumine batteries. 122 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley has become incredibly wealthy through the production of 123 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: devices like laptops and cell phones which used lithiumine batteries, 124 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: and now electric cars have become part of selicon value. 125 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: Cobalt is essentially a safety feature of lithiumine batteries. It 126 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: allows you to make the batteries smaller and more powerful 127 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: while reducing the risk of them catching fire, and that's 128 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: why it remains crucial to everything from personal electronics to 129 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: electric vehicles. The history of the lithia mine and battery 130 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: is really interesting. It was developed as a response to 131 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: some of the oil crises of the nineteen seventies. Exxon 132 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: was looking for a way to power cars that wasn't 133 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: dependent on oil, so they developed these very sort of 134 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: early type of electric cars, and they had these lithium 135 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: batteries which were liable to overheat and catch fire and 136 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: had to be very big. The three inventors of the 137 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: lithium ion battery actually won the Nobel Prize a couple 138 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: of years ago for their work on creating these batteries, 139 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: and the citations noted just how ubiquitous these batteries are 140 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: and how they power modern life. Silicon Valley has an 141 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: insatiable appetite for cobalt and lithium ion batteries play a 142 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: key role in much of the wonder of modern life. 143 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: But why did it have to be mined in such 144 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: deplorable conditions? So you really need to make a distinction 145 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: between two types of mining. There's artisanal mining, which is 146 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: responsible for about ten to the supply chain, and then 147 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: the rest is industrially mined by large companies. Artisal miners 148 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: are people who come and mine the cobalt in essentially 149 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: stone edge conditions. They use chisels that they sharpen, often 150 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: by hand, and they go down very very deep mind shafts, 151 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and the shafts that they build are often not reinforced 152 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: properly or in very sandy soil, which leads to the 153 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: shafts collapsing. So this in French is known as an 154 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: eb or a can And there are these terrifying stories 155 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: of Ed Boulmont which kill you up to seventy people 156 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: working in these very very deep shafts. So to be clear, 157 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: the majority of cobalt mining does take place in industrial minds, 158 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: which have much better safety conditions than the so called 159 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: artisanal or unofficial minds. According to Nicholas, it's in these 160 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: artisanal minds that child labor is most prevalent. I spoke 161 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: to children who said to me that they've been working 162 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: as young as three, and I really didn't believe this, 163 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: and a Catholic charity that works with the children actually 164 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: confirmed that the very youngest children sought through the rejected 165 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: pile of material that larger mining companies will cast off 166 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: to pick out the high quality cobalt from the lower 167 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: quality or The obvious question is just how much of 168 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: the cobalt that's mind or sorted by children ends up 169 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: in products that many of us use every day. It's 170 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: very difficult to know what makes its way to big 171 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: companies like Apple. There are still large companies that buy 172 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: from artisanal sources, and that seems to filter into the 173 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: supply chain and often through smelters and sort of mixing 174 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: up of products. It will end up in people's phones 175 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: and potentially in people's car batteries. And while companies like 176 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: Apple have made efforts to stop that happening, there's still 177 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to suggest that children are mining cobalt. 178 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: I went to a mind called Cassulo, which is directly 179 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: in Apple supply chain, and that mine, I have to say, 180 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: they had erected a wall and they were trying to 181 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: keep children out. However, I spoke to some miners and 182 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: they said that children still make an effort to get in, 183 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: and still do get in, and still do manage to 184 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: mind cobalt. There So the question you have to ask 185 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: yourself is why are the children mining? A big part 186 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: of the answer is clearly that the political will doesn't 187 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: exist to stop children from mining cobalt. The brutal backdrop 188 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: to all of this is the cobalt itself is a 189 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: byproduct of copper mining, which was a key activity of 190 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: the Belgian colonialists in Congo. This country has now been 191 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: exploited for centuries with very little concern for the welfare 192 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: of the local population. As Nicholas explains, the so called 193 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: great game continues to this day. I think China is 194 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: key to this story. The Chinese attitude has been to 195 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: buy up as much of the cobalt supply as possible, 196 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: and according to Nicholas, the Chinese presence in and around 197 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: Calway is palpable. The moment you step foot off the 198 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: plane so you arrive in the airport is oppressively hot. 199 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: You are jostled around. If you don't have a fixer 200 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: lined up at the airport, you're pushed to the back 201 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: of a customs line as everybody everybody else's shuttled in 202 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: front of you. There are at least a hundred of 203 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: people shouting in Mandarin at Congolese officials who don't understand them, 204 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: who are shouting back in French and Swahili. The airport 205 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: is a pretty intense experience. One consequent of the effective 206 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: Chinese ownership of cobalt mining has been to obscure the 207 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: supply chain. In some cases, even when intentioned US companies 208 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: simply cannot verify the source of the cobalt they're buying. 209 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: But as Nicholas explains, there is another more directly threatening 210 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: potential consequence. So this is something that I think that 211 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley needs to look at very very carefully, because 212 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: they believe that they will always be able to bind 213 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: batteries from China. But if China suddenly banned the export 214 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: of Lathian iron batteries in order to favor its own companies, 215 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: then Silicon Valley would be left without a source of 216 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: power for their devices, and China would be allowed to 217 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: dominate in terms of production of technological apparatus. And that 218 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: is very scary to people who are concerned about human 219 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: rights and government interference, because the Chinese government doesn't have 220 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: a great record of a allowing people privacy on their devices. 221 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: As so often a situation that today appears to be 222 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: somebody else's problem, maybe our own problem tomorrow. But Nicholas 223 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: told me he went to Kolwayzy because he wanted to 224 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: better understand the lives of cobalt miners, and it is 225 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: their fate that centralled his reporting. So there had been 226 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: this terrible cave in when a group of artisanal miners 227 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: more than forty but perhaps many many more people died. 228 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: And so somebody mentioned that they knew one of the 229 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: widows of these miners, and I was taken to see 230 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: her along a dirt road, and you arrive in this 231 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: town of one two room shacks, bran Juan, and I 232 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: was taken to the backyard, and I sat there interviewing 233 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: this woman who was telling me about her husband who 234 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: died and what an amazing man he'd been, and you know, 235 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: how he'd supported that their family, and how his profession 236 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: was to be an artisanal minor. And then I looked 237 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: behind me and I noticed that there were some sort 238 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: of shallow troughs in the ground behind her house. And 239 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: I said, what are these holes in the ground and 240 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: she said, and we were digging recently, myself and my sons, 241 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: in order to look for minerals. And we took a 242 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: little walk around that area, and everybody in their backyard 243 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: had been digging to look for copper and gulbalt. And 244 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: I think that really sums it up for me. I 245 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: asked her, I said, you've seen how dangerous this activity is. 246 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: She explained it to me in this way, which was 247 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: that they just don't have anything to live on. They 248 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: need to survive, and this is the only way that 249 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: they can survive. They need to have some sort of 250 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: economic activity to get by, and there's absolutely no other 251 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: work to be done there. And that I think is 252 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: the crux of this entire story, is that this kind 253 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: of gray rock street with blue that's pulled out of 254 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: the ground in a part of the world that's very 255 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: far away from the rest of us, is sort of 256 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: transformed by a modern alchemy into this gadget with lots 257 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: of bells and whistles, And in the meantime, the people 258 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: who have originally dug up the gray rock are left 259 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: with very, very little when we come back. Nicholas talks 260 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: about the response to his reporting from some of the 261 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley companies who rely on cobalt, and about the 262 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: status of the lawsuit against those companies. Throughout Sleepwalkers, it's 263 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: become clear that Silicon Valley often prefers not to think 264 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: about the human collateral of innovation, whether it's the uncompensated 265 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 1: translates whose work powers AHI translation, or the victims of 266 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: over zealous risk assessment algorithms. So I was curious to 267 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: hear from Nicholas how companies like Apple and Tesla had 268 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: responded to his reporting. I tried to speak to some 269 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: of the tech companies that were involved in this, and 270 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: they refused to speak to me on the record. Again, 271 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: I do think that Apple is trying to address these issues. 272 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: Do you think Tesla is trying to address these issues. 273 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: They've joined groups like the Fair Cobalt Alliance, which have 274 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: tried to improve conditions in some of the minds and 275 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: have tried to clean up the supply chain and remove 276 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: child mind cobalts from the supply chain. But yeah, they're 277 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: not very good about speaking about it publicly, and that's problematic. 278 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: I asked if there was anything beyond the obvious pr 279 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: and commercial imperatives that was driving Silicon Valley to continue 280 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: sweeping cobalt mining out of the carpet. This issue of 281 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: supply eye chains is something that a lot of pure 282 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: tech people probably don't want to think about because they 283 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: are involved in solving problems of a different type. But 284 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: without thinking about the raw fundaments of what goes into 285 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: powering that technology and creating that technology, I don't think 286 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: that we can properly feel unconflicted about all the benefits 287 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: that computers and electric cars and so on bring to 288 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: our lives in the nearer term. I wanted to know 289 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: about the status of the lawsuit being brought by international 290 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: rights advocates and what it might achieve. This lawsuit is 291 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: very important, and I think that if it gets to 292 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: the point of discovery, I think that we will learn 293 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: a lot about how Silicon Valley thinks about their supply chain. Currently, 294 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: the defendants of Father to dismiss the lawsuit and we'll 295 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: see how that goes. But I do think that it's 296 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: an important lawsuit and that through it we may be 297 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: able to learn a great deal more about this quite 298 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: obscure industry. It is the magic of the product form 299 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: to disguise its own ingredients. And there's no doubt that 300 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: between personal computers, cell phones, and electric vehicles, the Lithia 301 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: Mind battery has enabled tremendous good in the world. The 302 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: batteries inventors, after all, one a Nobel Prize for their research, 303 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: which quote laid the foundation of a wireless, fossil fuel 304 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: free society. But as the human stories of cobalt mining 305 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: remind us, that innovation comes with the price. I want 306 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: people to understand how their choices matter, and I think 307 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: that there's a tendency to look at devices as disposable. 308 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: And I think on a very basic level, if you're 309 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: thinking about just throwing away your phone or buying a 310 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: new laptop or something like that, just just think about 311 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: where that's coming from. This will will become a political 312 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: issue at some point and if there are ballot measures 313 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: or politicians who stand on these issues. I think it's 314 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: important for people to understand the history of this material 315 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: and how political change can affect this very brutal cycle. 316 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: Sleepwalkers is hosted by me osvil Noshin and Carrot Price. 317 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: It's executive produced by me and Julian Weller is the 318 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: senior producer, and this episode was produced by Ryan Kayloth.