WEBVTT - How to Spot a Lying Liar! 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.519 You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.280 and iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:12.440 Guess what, Mango? 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.280 What's that will? 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.440 So I came across this study, and you know I 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.240 love a good study, Mango, But this was from researchers 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.200 at the University of Wisconsin Lacrosse, and you know I 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.840 love University of Wisconsin Lacrosse. And this is a pretty 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.400 weird one. So here's what they did. They asked six 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.920 hundred and thirty two people to document every single lie 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.040 they told over the course of three months. That is incredible. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.159 So what they find out, well, among other things, they 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.279 discovered that the number one reason people lied was to 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.159 avoid others. Oh, I mean that kind of makes sense 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.520 to me, Yeah, it does. And the second most common 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.800 reason people lied was for jokes or pranks, which also makes. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.600 Sense, like the time you told me the CEO of 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.520 Vegemite was a huge fan of the show and wanted 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.840 to send us a lifetime supply of vegemite. That is, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.760 that's a good example of a lie, yep. But from 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.240 what you're describing, these are fairly like harmless lies, right, 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.039 So is a lesson that lying isn't necessarily so bad. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:12.920 I do like that that's your conclusion. I mean, the 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.000 lesson isn't quite that simple. Like, It's a highly complex 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.400 form of social interaction that can serve many different purposes, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.360 and so lies can range from lighthearted and funny to 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.640 of course malicious to downright dangerous, depending on the intention 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.280 behind them and the cultural context too. So people have 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.720 been trying to understand lying for thousands of years, and 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.160 it definitely merits more research or at least a podcast episode, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:38.880 I'd say. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.520 So, will I do have something to confess? 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:43.520 Okay, I'm nervous. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.920 I read that University of Wisconsin the study last week, 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.040 and I just pretended I didn't know about it, so 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:50.480 this show would sound better. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.400 Oh man, well, you know what I actually was lying too, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.600 because I knew that you had read the University of 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.240 Wisconsin study and I pretended that I didn't. So it's 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.240 just like this to an interesting start. But actually it's 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.400 the perfect way to kick off an episode about lying. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.000 There is a whole lot to talk about, and I 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.639 guarantee from this point forward we will be one hundred 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:35.240 percent truthful. So let's dive in. Hey there, podcast listeners, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.120 welcome to part time genius. I'm Will Pearson, and as always, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.520 I'm joined by my good friend Mangesh hot ticketter and 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.840 over there in the booth waving a red hot poker, 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.680 that's our pal and producer Dylan fig and he's actually 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.600 waving it pretty aggressively. I'm not really sure what he's doing, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.040 but it looks a little bit dangerous. If I'm being honest, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:52.799 I am. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.399 Glad that he's wearing oven mits at least, But believe 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.359 it or not, I think I know what he's trying 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.960 to demonstrate it. So, okay. Back in the Middle eight 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.919 lying was considered a terrible sin, and people, specifically Christian people, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.040 believe that the only way to know if someone was 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.960 lying was by testing them with a trial by ordeal. So, 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.160 in other words, the accused was put through a physical challenge, and, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.400 according to the logic at the time, if they were honest, 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.760 God would prevent them from getting hurt. Now, one of 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.840 the ordeals was touching the person's tongue to a red 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.480 hot poker. Obviously, this resulted in a lot of burnt tongues, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.760 which was seen as proof of dishonesty. Yikes. 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.640 All right, well, thank you Dylan for that terrifying visual. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.680 It is not common that we see Dylan looking terrifying 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.000 as one of the nicest humans on the planet. But 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.480 good job there, Dylan. All right, So Mengo, it sounds 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.160 like people took lying very seriously back then. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.080 They definitely did so. Other trials by ordeal included walking 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.119 over burning coals and being forced to swallow poison. And 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.920 if you're thinking, wow, that seems kind of extreme, this 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.200 actually all traces back to Saint Augustine. He wrote a 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.960 famous treatise on lying called Online and Augustine argued that 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:06.240 lying is like a disease. It supposedly destroys your integrity 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.560 and puts you in direct opposition to God. He's also 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.520 the guy who came up with the idea that if 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.120 you always tell the truth, God will actually swoop in 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.520 to protect you from the harm. But medieval Europe didn't 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.840 invent the idea of testing for truth. They just kind 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.919 of took it to this new, more brutal level. In 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.159 ancient China, accused liars had to chew a mouthful of 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.839 dry rice while someone recited the accusations against them, and 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.560 then they'd spit the rice out, and if it seemed 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.680 too dry when they spit it out because of their 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.200 dry mouth from nervousness. Then that was considered proof that 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.600 they had lied. What a weird way to test if 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.719 somebody's lying. Yeah, these early lie detectors were very, very ineffective, 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.159 but I guess it shows that concern about lying is 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.800 practically universal. There's actually this ancient Hindu text, the yard Javeda, 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.159 and it dates back to one thousand BCE, and it 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.960 has tips for royalty who are worried that their servants 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.920 are undercover scenaries lying about their allegiance. So it says, quote, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.080 a person who intends to poison food may be recognized. 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.400 He does not answer questions, or they are evasive answers. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.040 He speaks nonsense, rubs the great toe along the ground 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.640 and shivers. His face is discolored. He rubs the roots 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.680 of his hair with his fingers, and he tries by 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.719 every means to leave the house. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:24.560 It kind of feels like they would not be very 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.640 good mercenaries if they're doing all that stuff. 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.479 I know, but this gets is something really interesting, which 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.240 is that throughout history, people have believed that observing someone's 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.880 nonverbal behaviors, like their cues of things like fidgeting or 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.880 rubbing their nose. That's an easy way to tell if 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.680 they're lying, So you don't really need the hot pokers 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.920 or the vials of poison, I guess. 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.080 And that's basically the idea behind lie detectors looking for 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:49.040 those sorts of clues. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.239 Right, Yeah, So modern lie detectors or polygraphs were invented 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.960 in the early nineteen hundreds, but some of the technology 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.200 they use was developed in the eighteen hundreds, And all 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.200 they really do is measure changes in certain vital signs, 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.880 including things like blood pressure, breathing, perspiration. And although they're 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.560 still used by law enforcement and government agencies, they're widely 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.560 considered a pseudoscience. And that's because the physiological changes they 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.520 measure it can be triggered by lots of things like 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.440 not just the stress of lying. 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:19.960 Well, if you think about how it like the fear 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.400 of being arrested or stressed from being interrogated. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.919 Right. In fact, the ACLU has opposed the use of 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.080 polygraph machines for decades, saying they don't work and they're 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.240 a violation of people's privacy rights. And remember the machine 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.600 itself doesn't offer any conclusions. It just kind of records 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.760 this data for people But this is the part I 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:40.680 didn't realize. It's that a human polygraph examiner actually has 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.320 to interpret that data to decide what it means. Is 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.840 that a normal spike in sweating because the room is hot, 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.840 or does it indicate a lie, Which means the results 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.800 of a polygraph test can actually be tainted by human. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.520 Bias, I mean, like crazy bias. It does feel like 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.559 it's just so weird that in the twenty first century, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.560 where using what seems like the same lie detection concepts 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.159 ancient people, did we just exchanged the dry rice for 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:07.600 some sort of fancy machine. 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:08.760 I guess, yeah, pretty much. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.360 All right, Well, you know, regardless of what goes on physically, 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.520 telling a lie does require a whole bunch of complicated 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.320 brain activity. Like first you have to come up with 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.120 the lie and mentally detach yourself from the truth. Then 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.640 you have to choose your words and behaviors carefully. Is 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.000 to sell the lie and avoid suspicion, and that requires 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.800 understanding what your audience knows now and then making guesses 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.040 about what they might discover later. Then you have to 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.720 process the response to the initial lie and spin out 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.400 more lies as you need to back yourself up The 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.760 scientific term for all of this is called cognitive load. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.760 That is so funny, Like it feels like lying comes 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.680 so naturally at this point and you need to write, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.440 but like it sounds exhausting when you put it that way. 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.120 So does this mean like there's a specific area of 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.600 the brain that controls our ability to lie? 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.440 You know? Actually it's the opposite of this, because there's 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.920 this heavy cognitive load. Lying involves multiple areas of the 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.280 brain really working together. So these are areas responsible for 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:12.200 critical stuff like self awareness and social cognition. And one 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.200 thing that really fascinates me is the fact that line 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:18.000 can actually change our memories. That's because memories aren't set 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.240 in stone, and so the way we remember something can 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.480 be distorted over time, and if a lie is repeated 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.720 often enough, the truth is then suppressed. It can actually 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.360 distort our memory of an event. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.960 It also explains a lot about history and also like 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.440 collective memories, right, it really does. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.600 Yeah, I mean you might be wondering how and when 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.640 do we develop the ability to lie? And it turns 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.080 out there's a whole body of research about little kids 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.320 and lying. And we're going to chat more about all 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:51.040 of that right after a quick break. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:09:02.800 And Okay, well, so I know you've done a ton 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.120 of research about kids brains and how they developed the 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:07.280 ability to lie, But first I have to ask, like, 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:09.920 did you tell lies when you were a kid, or 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.679 you know, can you remember what your kids first lies 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:13.800 were to you? 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.240 You know, I know that I did. I don't remember 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.800 a whole lot of things specifically, but I remember that 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.800 my lies that I would tell were usually just like 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.840 ridiculous stories like coming in from playing outside or something 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.319 and then just making up some absurd story that probably 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.480 deep down I felt like my parents knew that I 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.560 was lying, but I'd still go for it anyway. But 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:36.360 how about you? 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.240 Uh? Yeah, I remember like being four and telling my 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.360 mom that I went to see Superman at the movie 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.720 theater and like pretending to fly around like it, but 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:48.679 I'd actually seen Return of the Jedi, And when she 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:54.559 found out, she was upset not be excited see Superman 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.120 just because she thought this like innocent kid could never 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:57.600 lie to her. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.559 Oh yeah, that's a heart break moment for mom. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.200 Ruby actually had an amazing first lie that I remember, Like. 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.000 Ruby was also about four at this time, and Henry 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.120 had had a birthday party at his school, and so 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:13.520 Ruby was like, oh yeah, we had cake at my 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.200 school too. I was like, oh, was there a birthday party? 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.079 And we was like no, no, no birthday party. And 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:22.400 I said, oh yeah, then then why was that cake? 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.720 And we was like, uh the classroom anniversary? It was 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.920 like a classroom niverse and like, I can I text 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.199 your teachers to find out about this classrom anniversary? And 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:33.840 Ruby was like no, no, no, they don't. 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:34.320 Like the text. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.400 And so so I said, you know, oh so, uh 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.080 so did you sing the traditional classroom anniversary song? And 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.160 we was like yeah, and I said, oh would you 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.800 sing it? And Ruby, without like skipping a be goes, 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:54.000 it's a classroom manniversary. It's a classroom anniversary. We do 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:55.199 it in the big building. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.200 Oh yeah, I heard that one. That's that is a classic. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:00.000 That's pretty amazing. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.600 So anyway, I think it's time to get to the science, 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:07.240 so let's get to it. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.080 I don't know, I feel like it's time for more songs, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.160 so let's do more of that, all right. Well, the 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.400 general consensus is that kids start lying when they're about 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.079 two or three years old, and usually they do it 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.400 when they've done something that they know they shouldn't do. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.079 But you know, their brains aren't sophisticated enough to take 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.959 that extra step of thinking, you like, will the person 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.960 I'm talking to actually believe what I'm saying? And so 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.880 you get situations like a toddler standing there covered in 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.560 paint and you say, did you open the paint? And 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:34.960 they of course deny it. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.679 So at what age like does this start to change? 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.520 Usually around four they start to take the listener's perspective 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.160 into account, and there's something psychologists call the theory of mind, 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.439 which is the ability to reason about other people's mental 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.679 states and then act accordingly. So the kid realizes that 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.360 you can see the paint and you'll be wondering how 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.920 that paint got there, and so they might say something like, 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.200 you know, my brother did, which is a nice try, 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.960 of course, but maybe the brother's been upstairs all day. 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.640 So they're close to getting this lie right. But there's 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.240 still some holes in the story. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.280 Yeah, usually there are. It actually just is a side 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.200 note reminds me of our good friend Adam that talked 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.120 about a high school experience when he was sitting next 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.920 to a girl that he had a crush on and 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.880 he sneezed into his hands. She looks over at him. 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.960 He clearly has snot all in his hands, and he 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.120 just looks at her and he says, it wasn't me. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:33.199 Do you knew the story? 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.800 Yes, it's pretty great. I just thought that was such 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:41.320 a great response anyway. So things really start to change 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.000 around seven or eight, and that's when they can account 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.920 for a wider range of facts and contexts like in 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.640 the lie. So maybe they say, you know, my brother 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.880 did it, and you say, but he's in his room, 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.040 And then a slightly older kid has the capacity to 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.720 react with something like he came down for a snack 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.240 and he was playing with the paint, but then he 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.559 went back upstairs, you know, just taking it to another level. 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.000 Really, it is wild to think of little kids like 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.400 almost like new versions of AI, Like they just keep 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.400 getting better and better at lying as. 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.680 The yeah, yeah, it's a good way to think about 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.120 it like that, that training over time, and it's even 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.280 more wild to realize that this is something parents have 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.800 known about for a long time. Actually, Charles Darwin wrote 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.160 about toddler liars after doing some observational research to his 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.880 own kids. This was, of course, back in the eighteen forties. 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.480 So what happened is one day he caught his two 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.280 and a half year old son coming out of the 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.240 dining room with something very obviously wrapped up in a pinafore. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.000 And this is, you know, a dressed like garment. And 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.760 Darwin says, hey, buddy, what what do you got there? 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.360 And the kids like nothing, go away, and so Darwin 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.880 checks and it turns out he'd stolen a. 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.720 Pickle, the old pickle and a pinafore. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.160 Bit, yeah, you know, the whole bit there. But the 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.680 point is, there's ample evidence that very young children have 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.600 the executive functions needed for lying. More complicated skills like 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.120 memory and inhibition control, they develop a little bit later, 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.880 and that makes their lies more elaborate and believable. And 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.920 what researchers have found is that kids with strong cognitive 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.680 abilities actually make better liars. So, in a weird way, 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.079 lying is a sign of reaching important developmental milestones. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.480 I like the idea of grade schools giving out stickers 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:24.640 for lying. You know, so, the only thing cuter than 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.880 a toddler telling whoppers is an animal who's trying to 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:28.320 trick you. 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.200 So were you suggesting that animals also lie? 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.560 It kind of depends on what you mean. By lies. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.320 So usually when we say someone is lying, we mean 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:40.480 they're knowingly making a false statement with the intent to deceive. Right. So, 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.480 animals can't talk obviously, so they don't make statements the 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.600 way we do. But if you expand this definition to 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.480 include behaviors, then you know animals do engage in deceptive 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.360 behavior all the time. So if you think about possums 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.960 when they're threatened, they pretend to be dead. I also 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.200 read about this bird called the forktailed drongo, which is 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.520 native to the color Ahari Desert in Africa, and when 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.000 it sees a predator like an eagle over ahead, it 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.440 lets out a squeaky alarm call. Now, other desert animals, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.800 including meerkats, have learned to hide when they hear this 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.200 alarm as well, But sometimes the drongo plays a trick. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.200 If it sees a meerkat holding food it wants, maybe 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.360 like a nice juicy lizard, it starts squeaking the alarm, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.840 and the meerkat drops the food and runs for cover, 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.120 and then the drongo swoops in and takes the meal. Wow. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.520 I mean that definitely sounds like the bird equivalent of 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.000 making a fault statement with the intent to deceive. Don't 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:31.320 you think. 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.400 Yeah, So Weirdly, it's the last part that people actually 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.800 disagree about whether or not there's intent. So clearly, the 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.480 drongo knows that if it makes the alarm call, the 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.920 meerkat will run, and the possum knows that if it 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.000 lies really still, its predator may walk away. But some 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:50.920 scientists actually call this functional deception, not intentional deception, and 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.440 they argue that the intent depends on something you mentioned 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.480 a few minutes ago, the theory of mind. And it's 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.680 just not clear that animals have the ability to think 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.760 about what other creatures know or believe. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.800 So I guess, in other words, the drongo isn't thinking 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.000 if I yell, the dumb mere cat will believe there's 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.680 an eagle. It just thinks when I yell, the mere 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.320 cat runs. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.360 Yeah, pretty much. But there have been some studies that 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.560 suggest animals, particularly great apes, may have a theory of mind. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.080 And in one experiment, researchers gave an ape eye trackers 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.760 so they could tell where it was looking. And then, 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.200 and I swear I'm not making this up, an assistant 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.640 in an ape costume ran into the cage area puts 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.400 an object under one of the two boxes on the floor. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.920 A researcher pretends to watch this happen and then leaves 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:39.640 the room. And then when this assistant in ape costume 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.080 is there alone, he puts the object under the other 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.280 box for a moment, and then he picks it up 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.240 and runs away. So when the researcher comes back and 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.360 reaches for the boxes, the ape looks at him and 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.720 then stared at the first box, as if he knew 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.520 the researcher was expecting the object to be there, which means, like, 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.960 you know, the ape is picking up on all these 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.360 and is more aware of others behaviors. And actually there's 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:04.800 video of this on YouTube. 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.000 Oh man, I've got to see this. It's such a 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.720 fascinating idea. And I also love the idea that like 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.119 a guy with several PhDs having to run around in 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.560 a costume pretending to be an ape. So this is 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.280 definitely something I'm going to watch, all right. So to 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.600 switch gears here, Mango, I want to tell you about 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.320 lying and culture clashes. So you mentioned earlier that lying 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.120 means knowingly making a false statement with the intention to deceive. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.879 That's a good definition, but some types of deception aren't 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.520 so clear. Cut, and the context really does matter. So 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.760 omitting information or being purposely ambiguous, those can be types 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.560 of lies. Even accurate information can be used in misleading ways. 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:46.760 And the way we interpret these nuances and the way 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.520 we assess other people's honesty, it really comes down to 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.760 the norms that we've learned from our culture. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.320 You know, this is a great quote by Montaigne that 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.240 Mary actually pointed me too, and it goes, quote the 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.879 reverse of you has one hundred thousand forms, And it 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:04.480 sounds like that, right, Like, there's so many ways to 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.480 lie in just like one way to simply tell the truth. 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.200 But can you give me some examples of what you're 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:09.920 thinking about here? 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.320 Yeah, for sure. But by the way, Mary, great quote 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.920 that is, that's pretty awesome, all right. So, according to research, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.640 highly individualistic cultures like the United States, they see lies 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.879 very differently than more collectives cultures like many in Asia. So, 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.040 for example, an American business manager might consider it dishonest 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.919 to withhold negative feedback from an employee, even if it's harsh, 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.040 but a Japanese manager might not see it that way 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.800 at all because they're considering potential harm to an employee 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.879 and to their relationship. So for them, that's part of 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.280 being a trustworthy person. So maybe they downplay the bad 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.840 review or delivered an indirect fashion. But if you imagine 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.280 an American employee getting vague feedback might make them think, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:53.680 what are they hiding from me? 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.240 Yeah, and I guess in both scenarios, people are they're 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.160 trying to do the right thing, and there's no there's 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:01.840 no actually intend to deceive there. 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.520 No, that's exactly right. I mean this extends to speech 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.320 patterns too. So most native English speakers in the United 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.119 States consider clear, direct language to be a sign of honesty, 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.600 and we're a little more suspicious of verbal meandering or 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.840 someone using a lot of euphemisms, but that's just how 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.960 some cultures communicate. Meanwhile, they might interpret our bluntness as 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.400 bad manners. And you know, of course, then there's body language. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.520 So in the US, holding eye contact is usually considered 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.480 proof that someone's being honest, but in other parts of 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.480 the world that can actually be seen as rude or aggressive. 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.720 Yeah, well this is a podcast, so so you all 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:39.600 can't see my eyes. But I'm going to use the 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.320 straightforward American approach to honest communication. Right now, it is 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.720 time for an ad break, So we can make money 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.880 and keep the show going. That's how honest I'm being. 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.320 But we'll be back soon. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.720 Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where we're learning the 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.960 truth about lies. All right, So Mango, what have you 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:12.200 got for us next? 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.800 So far, we've mostly been talking about lies at a 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.880 personal level, but lying isn't just about how we relate 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.000 to one another. It can also have legal consequences, including 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.280 what we call fraud. So under US law, fraud can 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.960 be a civil or a criminal matter, depending on the situation, 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.120 and in civil cases is defined as a misrepresentation of fact, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.359 either intentional or negligent, and that causes injury or harm 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.639 to another person. Criminal fraud usually falls into specific categories 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.080