WEBVTT - What to Read During a Pandemic 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:22.196 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.236 --> 0:00:25.676 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.196 --> 0:00:30.676 I'm Noah Feldman. Readers all over the world are buying 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:34.956 books about epidemics right now. Sales of Albert Kamu's nineteen 0:00:35.036 --> 0:00:38.116 forty seven novel The Plague have tripled in Italy, They're 0:00:38.196 --> 0:00:42.116 up in the UK and in France. Stephen King's nineteen 0:00:42.156 --> 0:00:45.276 seventy eight novel The Stand about a Killer Virus saw 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:48.436 a fifty eight percent increase in online sales last month, 0:00:49.476 --> 0:00:52.596 and among scholars of literature, some of the classics of 0:00:52.676 --> 0:00:57.436 Western writing, like Boccaccio's famous collection of stories The Decameron, 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:00.796 which are set in a time of plague, are drawing 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:06.356 renewed and indeed almost obsessive potension. Maybe we're turning to 0:01:06.516 --> 0:01:10.716 books for answers that we can't get from scientists and politicians, 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:14.716 or maybe we're trying to find another way to make 0:01:14.756 --> 0:01:17.836 sense of our world. We also might be just trying 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:21.356 to get out of it and escape. To discuss the 0:01:21.356 --> 0:01:23.756 literature of pandemics and what we can learn from it. 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:28.076 I knew I wanted to hear from Marta Fikorovich. Marta 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:31.196 as an associate professor of comparative literature and of English 0:01:31.236 --> 0:01:34.356 at Yale University. It's not just that Martha has read 0:01:34.436 --> 0:01:37.796 every book there is to read. It's that she's consistently 0:01:37.956 --> 0:01:40.996 clear and at the same time profound in her thinking 0:01:40.996 --> 0:01:44.316 about literature and how it affects the way we think 0:01:44.636 --> 0:01:49.596 and experience the world. Marta, thanks for agreeing to talk 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.476 to me, and our general topic is literature in the 0:01:52.476 --> 0:01:56.356 time of Corona. I want to start by just asking you, 0:01:56.996 --> 0:01:59.556 how irritated are you by this question? I mean, have 0:01:59.636 --> 0:02:02.276 we already entered the realm of cliche in this subject. 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:04.476 That's a funny question. I think if we get to 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:08.116 Boccaccio in the next five minutes, then yes, But hopefully 0:02:08.116 --> 0:02:10.276 we're going to go somewhere else. And thank you again 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:14.076 for inviting me to participate. I mean, in some sense 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:17.676 it's my parents are both scientists, and they're very much 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:22.076 involved in the COVID effort in Poland. So in some 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:25.876 sense I have been feeling a humanist's sense of futility 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:27.956 for the past few weeks. I'm like, Oh, my mother 0:02:28.076 --> 0:02:30.396 is on National TV again talking about a case, and 0:02:30.436 --> 0:02:33.916 here I am reading the Collected Gutta. So I think 0:02:33.956 --> 0:02:35.716 in some ways the Poccaccio is a joke, but in 0:02:35.716 --> 0:02:39.356 another sense, the joke is at us humanists, because it 0:02:39.436 --> 0:02:42.156 raises the perpetual question of in times of crisis, what 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:47.116 does literature do? Exactly, both literature kind of dug up 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:49.996 from the past to help us persist, and also any 0:02:50.036 --> 0:02:52.836 literature that might come out of this moment. At the 0:02:52.916 --> 0:02:56.556 risk of them diving into cliche because you brought it up, 0:02:57.036 --> 0:03:00.076 I want them to just ask you, maybe only very briefly, 0:03:00.316 --> 0:03:06.356 about this classic work of literature, Pocaccio's to Cameron, composed 0:03:06.516 --> 0:03:11.116 in the aftermath of the thirteen forty seven plague throughout Europe, 0:03:11.156 --> 0:03:14.196 but in particular in Florence. Why do you think that 0:03:14.356 --> 0:03:18.956 becomes everybody's go to COVID literary reference. I was actually 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:21.596 speaking about this to an Italian scholar a couple of 0:03:21.676 --> 0:03:23.676 days ago, and what he said, and I agree with this, 0:03:24.036 --> 0:03:29.516 is that Bocaccio captures something about quarantine that is about 0:03:29.636 --> 0:03:33.196 recreation in two different senses. Kind Of, under one hand, 0:03:33.516 --> 0:03:37.556 quarantine is all about figuring out what society might turn 0:03:37.596 --> 0:03:40.916 out to be once kind of everybody emerges and some 0:03:40.956 --> 0:03:44.796 people have died and the economy and politics will have 0:03:44.916 --> 0:03:48.676 shifted in ways that we cannot as yet imagine. But 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:52.796 then in addition to that lofty sense of recreation, there's 0:03:52.796 --> 0:03:56.396 also the less lofty sense of recreation. Meaning of quarantine 0:03:56.516 --> 0:04:00.316 is all about dailiness overwhelming your life. It's all about 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:04.876 thinking about the very large scale, within the confines of 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:08.116 something that is kind of much smaller even than your 0:04:08.196 --> 0:04:13.116 regular professional life or regular everyday life. That huge difference 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:16.716 in scales between the banality of what will I make 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:20.996 for breakfast and how will it be until the peak hits. 0:04:21.076 --> 0:04:24.516 I think that's something Boccaccio captures quite well, and that's 0:04:24.516 --> 0:04:27.036 something that the pathos of the stories, which are kind 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:31.436 of charming and funny but also often profoundly sad. And 0:04:31.516 --> 0:04:36.676 this is very quickly developed, rapidly ending way, because there's 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:40.716 something about the stories that also captures the shortness of 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:44.916 every person's life and also kind of how easily a 0:04:44.996 --> 0:04:48.396 life can be turned into a twist in a tail. 0:04:49.116 --> 0:04:51.676 Then will then take you through maybe ten minutes of quarantine. 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:55.476 Marjor you said that as a humanist, you were asking yourself, 0:04:55.716 --> 0:04:58.796 you know, what do we have to contribute? And seems 0:04:58.796 --> 0:05:00.756 to me the answer is a whole lot, because it's 0:05:00.796 --> 0:05:05.396 humanists who are interested in how we process our experiences. Yes, yeah, 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:11.116 what writers or ideas are are helping you to process 0:05:11.396 --> 0:05:13.996 the strange experiences that we're in now. Well, one thing 0:05:14.036 --> 0:05:16.836 I've been thinking about a lot is the work of 0:05:16.916 --> 0:05:23.236 Vassily Grossman, who is a relatively lesser known Russian author 0:05:23.396 --> 0:05:26.556 who lived in the time of the Soviet period, was 0:05:26.596 --> 0:05:30.836 then exiled to Armenia because the Soviet government at first 0:05:30.876 --> 0:05:34.636 really liked his novels and then suddenly turned against them. 0:05:35.396 --> 0:05:37.356 And a lot of what he tries to write about 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:40.756 is kind of experiences of war in siege. I mean, 0:05:40.916 --> 0:05:43.796 his big novel Stalingrad is about the Siege of Stalingrad, 0:05:44.316 --> 0:05:48.356 and here again it's all about kind of different temporalities 0:05:48.996 --> 0:05:52.676 coming together, kind of the temporality of waiting for the 0:05:52.756 --> 0:05:55.716 Germans to come in the Sigi of Stalingrad, and then 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:59.076 the rapidity with which everybody in the novel spoiler alert 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:02.836 kind of rapidly dies in the siege. And he has 0:06:02.876 --> 0:06:07.396 that amazing book called Everything Flows, which is about a 0:06:07.476 --> 0:06:11.636 man who comes back from Goula to his home village, 0:06:12.116 --> 0:06:16.156 and is this encounter between a man who has experienced 0:06:16.156 --> 0:06:20.636 something unimaginable for over a decade and is suddenly back 0:06:21.316 --> 0:06:23.676 in a town that is, on the one hand, exactly 0:06:23.716 --> 0:06:26.196 the way it used to be and on the other hand, 0:06:26.316 --> 0:06:29.916 completely different, and he can't figure out how to re 0:06:30.156 --> 0:06:33.556 enter it. And I've been thinking about those books in 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:36.516 part because of the question of how do you begin 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:41.156 again and what does it mean to kind of leave 0:06:41.356 --> 0:06:44.156 the house and resume life after all of this has happened. 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:47.876 So those are two book end ideas that you're finding there. 0:06:47.876 --> 0:06:51.476 The first is the waiting idea that we're sitting around. 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:55.876 We know something bad is almost certainly going to happen, 0:06:56.196 --> 0:07:00.076 we know it can involve death, and we're just sitting here. 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:02.316 The other end of the book end is what will 0:07:02.356 --> 0:07:06.716 happen afterwards? Yes, what about the in between? I think 0:07:06.716 --> 0:07:08.796 in the in between? One thing I've been thinking about 0:07:08.836 --> 0:07:12.716 as an academic and a writer is kind of how 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:17.116 the monastic ideal of the solitary writer is such a lie. 0:07:17.756 --> 0:07:21.156 I mean, even monasteries are usually full of people. That's 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:22.756 the point of a monasteries. You have a lot of 0:07:22.756 --> 0:07:24.716 people who have nothing else to do but pray and 0:07:24.756 --> 0:07:27.156 talk to you. And I think one thing I've been 0:07:27.156 --> 0:07:31.596 thinking about is just universities and how much as we 0:07:31.876 --> 0:07:35.036 scholars fetishize the notion of getting to go away on sabbatical, 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:39.276 which is where COVID currently finds me, there's also the 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:42.156 beauty of getting to go talk to people. And so 0:07:42.196 --> 0:07:45.636 many of our best ideas actually happen in conversation with 0:07:45.676 --> 0:07:49.996 people in a way that it just makes this myth 0:07:50.076 --> 0:07:53.156 of disappearing into yourself to come up with a magnum 0:07:53.236 --> 0:07:56.396 opus seem all the more like a kind of romantic 0:07:56.876 --> 0:08:00.596 individualists mirage. And the other thing I've been thinking about 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:03.556 is just the realist novel in its capacity to think 0:08:03.596 --> 0:08:06.276 about the every day and make us notice the every day. 0:08:06.756 --> 0:08:10.516 I think it's no accident that we're all reading very 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:12.276 long novels, or at least everybody I know one has 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:15.116 been reading very long novels. And it's not just to 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:18.076 pass the time, which is why novels used to be 0:08:18.116 --> 0:08:20.676 long in the first place, back in the day, because 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:22.956 you had to go off into the countryside and there 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:24.996 would be winter, there would be only one neighbor to 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:27.836 talk to a horse right away, So what were you 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:29.916 going to do? You're going to read the long Dickens novel, 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:34.356 but there's also something about them that celebrates that day 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:38.516 lead us, and sometimes, as Inflabet is really pessimistic about 0:08:38.516 --> 0:08:41.596 it and treats it as this thing that will eventually 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:44.516 grind you down, but also kind of makes you realize 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:48.756 that most of your life does actually happen within your 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:51.636 house in a certain sense, and the people whom you 0:08:51.716 --> 0:08:54.956 touch most intimately are often to people whom you live with. 0:08:55.196 --> 0:08:58.276 Anything in that sense, the genre is like the poem 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:00.796 or the novel that could have tried to get you 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:04.636 back into that place are kind of precious in a 0:09:04.756 --> 0:09:08.836 very different way because rather than kind of getting us 0:09:08.876 --> 0:09:11.676 back into this place of contemplation, they kind of accompany 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:15.916 us in what has become constant contemplation of the living 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:18.596 room and then the kitchen and the living room. Again. 0:09:18.716 --> 0:09:22.596 That's super interesting to me because my instinct before you 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:24.436 said that was sort of like the point that you 0:09:24.516 --> 0:09:27.356 were initially making, I think, in part to disparage it, 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:30.516 namely that one reason we might feel able to take 0:09:30.556 --> 0:09:32.756 on long novels is that the pace of our lives 0:09:33.476 --> 0:09:35.996 feels different. But I think you were saying sort of 0:09:36.036 --> 0:09:38.356 the opposite. I think you were saying that that's not 0:09:38.436 --> 0:09:41.996 what's going on that it's really has to do more 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:47.556 with the idea of a novel about our inner worlds 0:09:47.556 --> 0:09:50.876 and our inner lives corresponds to the fact that we 0:09:51.876 --> 0:09:54.236 are stuck in our rooms. Yeah, no, I think that's 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:56.396 exactly right. And in that sense it's also making me 0:09:56.436 --> 0:10:01.316 appreciate at least how much Beckett is engaged with realism 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:05.356 in a very serious way. Kind for all is absurdity, 0:10:05.396 --> 0:10:08.796 and absurdism is actually just like the slowing down of realism. 0:10:09.116 --> 0:10:12.076 It was ultimate degree. When you think about the Beckett 0:10:12.116 --> 0:10:14.916 of the long novels, which are all about a person 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:20.196 slowly losing mobility. There's Molloy, where Malloy initially as a 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:22.276 bike and then he loses the bike, and then he 0:10:22.316 --> 0:10:24.156 goes lame in one foot, then then in both feet, 0:10:24.236 --> 0:10:25.956 and by the end of the novel he's just a 0:10:26.036 --> 0:10:29.556 crawling somewhere, sort of forgetting where it was he was 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:31.916 crawling to in the first place. And then Malone Dies, 0:10:32.116 --> 0:10:37.236 which is about a character who may or may not 0:10:37.276 --> 0:10:41.676 be related to the characters of Molloy lying in bed, dying, 0:10:42.276 --> 0:10:46.796 trying to write his diary of being stuck in this room, 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:50.156 occasionally getting food, and he keeps dropping his pencil. So 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:51.876 a lot of the novel is just about like I 0:10:51.916 --> 0:10:54.916 found my pencil again. It has been two weeks since 0:10:54.916 --> 0:10:56.916 I have seen my pencil. Pure in is again, so 0:10:56.956 --> 0:10:59.036 I will write about the last two weeks. You make 0:10:59.076 --> 0:11:04.436 it seem so thrilling. It's fascinating, Marta. What about escapism 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:08.516 and the novel? One of the experiences that most of 0:11:08.556 --> 0:11:12.076 us have when reading novels is to not be where 0:11:12.076 --> 0:11:15.396 we are. It seems especially valuable when you can't get 0:11:15.436 --> 0:11:17.876 out of the place where you, in fact are. Are 0:11:17.876 --> 0:11:22.636 there any escapist novels that seem to you particularly suitable 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:25.036 to the moment. Well, I think it depends to me 0:11:25.076 --> 0:11:28.996 on what you mean by escapism, because I often find 0:11:29.116 --> 0:11:33.556 that what I initially think of escapism is actually something 0:11:33.596 --> 0:11:36.196 like a parallax, meaning it doesn't so much get me 0:11:36.196 --> 0:11:38.356 out of reality that it transposes it by a couple 0:11:38.356 --> 0:11:40.476 of degrees, so I can think about it a little 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:44.076 bit more freely, which is what daydreaming off it is fundamentally. 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:46.956 And I when we daydream, it's not like we're coming 0:11:47.036 --> 0:11:49.676 up with something from scratch, like what would that even mean? 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:52.316 Is that we're trying to imagine a version of the 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:54.836 people we know in the lives we go in a 0:11:54.836 --> 0:11:57.676 different country, or from a different perspective, or with a 0:11:57.716 --> 0:12:02.996 slightly different balance of power. When COVID first hit, I 0:12:03.036 --> 0:12:06.596 found myself obsessively thinking about the zombie movies of Roberto, 0:12:07.116 --> 0:12:09.396 particularly the one that takes place in the super market, 0:12:09.476 --> 0:12:12.116 Dawn of the Dead, which is all about kind of 0:12:12.156 --> 0:12:14.916 the fascination of going into the supermarket and being like, oh, 0:12:14.956 --> 0:12:17.956 I could survive here forever if I could only give 0:12:17.956 --> 0:12:20.756 the zombies out. And then they do give the zombies out, 0:12:20.756 --> 0:12:23.076 and then they collapse because they can't agree with each other. 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:26.396 And I think it's not accidental that, like a lot 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:29.996 of other people I know, we're looking to the dystopian 0:12:30.036 --> 0:12:33.796 literature of surviving and scarce resources. Like most of the 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:37.036 children I know and I've been hearing about during the 0:12:37.036 --> 0:12:40.796 epidemic have been making a little self isolation forts in 0:12:40.836 --> 0:12:42.876 the living room, which is sort of adorable. And you 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:46.276 would think they would be doing something else, like imagining, 0:12:47.516 --> 0:12:51.636 like I don't know, like huge villas or world travel, 0:12:51.756 --> 0:12:54.836 but no, it's always like I am in this timy place. 0:12:55.196 --> 0:12:58.276 We have three pieces of bread, let's share them together. 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:01.756 I love that zombie movies come to your mind as 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:05.236 a motive escapism. My instinctive reaction to that is to 0:13:05.316 --> 0:13:08.236 say that, yes, I recognize the form of escapism that 0:13:08.356 --> 0:13:11.636 just changes things by a few degrees. And I also 0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:14.996 identify that very much with science fiction, as the genre 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:17.636 where you just tweak a few a few assumptions and 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:20.596 you get something different out of it. What about the 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:22.956 form of escapism though, that, at least on the surface, 0:13:22.996 --> 0:13:25.916 isn't just tweak a few things, but is move yourself 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:28.436 to an entirely different environment. I mean the sort of 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:31.436 radical escapism. I mean, so for me, if I am 0:13:31.436 --> 0:13:35.756 at my lowest point, if I open Conan Doyle, you know, 0:13:35.876 --> 0:13:38.596 and I'm at two twenty one B Baker Street, I 0:13:38.636 --> 0:13:42.516 am instantaneously in escape. And that's not because my life 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:44.836 is just a few twists and turns away from those 0:13:44.876 --> 0:13:48.596 of Holmes and Watson. It's that's so radically disjunct from 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:50.676 my world. And that's a different form I think of 0:13:50.796 --> 0:13:53.196 escapism where you literally want to just get out of 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:55.076 your head. I don't want to think about what's going on. 0:13:55.156 --> 0:13:58.036 I want to think about something completely different right now. 0:13:58.156 --> 0:14:00.556 Not going to psychoanalyze pattern, but I'm very tempted too. 0:14:00.756 --> 0:14:04.036 Oh go for it. No, just in the sense that 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:07.356 could of the crime narrative and the clue narratives, also 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:11.156 the fundamental form of imagine control, of imagining that the 0:14:11.196 --> 0:14:13.476 world is actually legible, and if you only look for 0:14:13.636 --> 0:14:15.476 enough clues and put them together, it's long going to 0:14:15.516 --> 0:14:18.716 be okay, and everything's going to be clear again. You 0:14:18.716 --> 0:14:20.716 can send me a bill. I mean, that's a great 0:14:20.716 --> 0:14:23.836 psychomanalytic insight of why I love mystery novels. They embody 0:14:23.916 --> 0:14:26.516 the fantasy of putting it all together and making sense 0:14:26.556 --> 0:14:28.796 of it and then being in control again. We'll be 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:41.436 back in just a moment. Magical realism got The first 0:14:41.836 --> 0:14:44.236 Corona shout out has to have been within a couple 0:14:44.236 --> 0:14:47.116 of days of people starting to talk about sociation that 0:14:47.236 --> 0:14:49.556 everyone was saying love in the time of Corona, Love 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:51.076 and the time of Corona. And I remember the first 0:14:51.076 --> 0:14:52.796 person who texted that to me. I thought, oh my god, 0:14:52.916 --> 0:14:54.836 this person is the cleverest person I've ever met, And 0:14:54.836 --> 0:14:57.316 then very quickly I realized that, you know, the hive 0:14:57.436 --> 0:14:59.316 mind had thought of this. And I don't know if 0:14:59.316 --> 0:15:02.556 anyone's actually out there reading Marquez now, but there is 0:15:02.596 --> 0:15:07.476 something about the kind of slowing of pace in magical realism, 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:11.156 and something about the slight tweaks to the world that 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:16.636 does seem just almost intuitively appropriate for the moment, right. 0:15:16.636 --> 0:15:19.236 And it's also funny because put the question that collected 0:15:19.276 --> 0:15:21.516 and magical vitalism is also interesting because on the one 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:25.076 hand it's about the individual author's imagination. On the other hand, 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:30.756 it's about juxtaposing certain traditions that are non imperialist Western 0:15:30.836 --> 0:15:33.356 traditions and bringing them into the world of the novel, 0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:36.596 kind of showing that the novel doesn't have to be 0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:41.956 realist in the sense that's the nineteenth century British and 0:15:41.996 --> 0:15:43.836 French novel imagine it to be. And how does that 0:15:43.916 --> 0:15:46.796 angle kick in here? Because I have this instinct that 0:15:47.476 --> 0:15:51.396 one of the weirdest things about COVID is that people 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:54.636 in broadly speaking, the rich West or North, or call 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:58.236 it whatever you wish, are accustomed in our era to 0:15:58.396 --> 0:16:01.316 thinking of pandemics as things that happen all the time 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:07.236 to other people Zeka in Latin America, or Ebola in Africa, 0:16:07.476 --> 0:16:11.276 or earlier versions of stars in China. So if you 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:14.276 think of Marquez or something like that, you're thinking of 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:19.516 again non Western quote unquote literature as the more contemporary 0:16:19.556 --> 0:16:24.716 literature of pandemic. You're talking about it in terms of 0:16:24.756 --> 0:16:27.596 past and present and future. Is always fascinating to me, 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:31.196 in part because like I don't quite identify with that 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:35.396 Western subjectivity I guess as a Polish person, and because 0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:38.636 part of my impetus for moving to the United States 0:16:38.636 --> 0:16:41.356 those fifteen years ago now was because I kind of 0:16:41.396 --> 0:16:43.596 wanted to live in the future. I didn't want to 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:46.756 wait until gay rights were okay at some point in 0:16:46.796 --> 0:16:50.276 the future in Poland, so I thought I could could 0:16:50.276 --> 0:16:52.396 have jumped a decade. And that's how it felt at first. 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:56.716 And how does it feel now, especially with reference to 0:16:56.796 --> 0:16:59.436 the pandemic. Is it if there's a sort of flattening 0:16:59.476 --> 0:17:01.956 we're all sort of in the same situation. Yes, And 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:04.956 I think there's a kind of big difference in kind 0:17:04.996 --> 0:17:07.316 of what kinds of memories to spring back, because my 0:17:07.356 --> 0:17:09.796 family in Poland, I find myself talking to them a 0:17:09.796 --> 0:17:12.996 lot about my grandmother's memories of the war, which, for 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:15.356 her and for a lot of the people I know 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:18.316 who were the people survived, was all about trying to 0:17:18.356 --> 0:17:22.556 wait it out and occasionally having something very dramatic happened, 0:17:22.556 --> 0:17:24.796 which would become the story that you told to people 0:17:24.916 --> 0:17:27.076 that most of the time you were just kind of 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:31.436 trying to be in the potato field when the planes 0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:35.596 came and not to be seen. Yes, I think it's 0:17:35.956 --> 0:17:40.076 weird and interesting what kinds of transgenerational memories that brings up, 0:17:40.076 --> 0:17:43.076 and with parts of my heritage, it makes me feel 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:45.876 close to because in some senses it's been making me 0:17:45.916 --> 0:17:49.436 feel more connected to a certain part of my Eastern 0:17:49.436 --> 0:17:51.836 Europeanist that I have been in a while. It is 0:17:51.876 --> 0:17:55.636 really really interesting that the experience of waiting is a 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:58.916 common thread. You know, we're waiting for something and we're 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:01.356 sort of hoping to hoping to get through it to 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:05.476 the other side. Yeah, Kamu is my last topic to 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:07.156 bring up. I mean, I think then we've hit all 0:18:07.156 --> 0:18:11.196 the big three of the on a literature discussion. Have 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:13.876 you heard or read anything or thought of anything around 0:18:13.916 --> 0:18:16.076 the Kamu that was a value or of interest. I 0:18:16.076 --> 0:18:19.676 think I've been thinking about Mu in great part in 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:22.676 relation to the notion of the plague is a time 0:18:22.716 --> 0:18:26.436 of trial, meaning kind of people's real character comes out 0:18:26.516 --> 0:18:28.916 and what it means for that to be quote unquote 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:33.156 your real character like. Emergencies certainly bring to the foreground 0:18:33.196 --> 0:18:35.716 certain parts of ourselves, and they're valuable parts of ourselves, 0:18:36.676 --> 0:18:38.996 but how do they relate to the rest of reality. 0:18:40.236 --> 0:18:43.236 I've been reading in my World War Two phase of 0:18:43.276 --> 0:18:46.876 my COVID reading, I've been reading Joan Juno's Occupation Journal. 0:18:47.716 --> 0:18:50.916 He's a French novelist. It's a journal from the occupation 0:18:50.956 --> 0:18:54.396 of France by the Germans, which is coming out in 0:18:54.676 --> 0:18:57.516 its first English translation, and one of the things he 0:18:57.596 --> 0:19:00.916 meditates about is kind of what those situations of emergency 0:19:00.956 --> 0:19:02.876 due to people. And he says, there are some people 0:19:02.916 --> 0:19:08.116 who think they're really strong, and then the occupation shows 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:09.836 them to be weak. And there are people who have 0:19:09.876 --> 0:19:14.276 always imagined themselves to be weak, but a situation of 0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:18.156 crisis actually shows them to be unconsciously very strong. And 0:19:18.196 --> 0:19:21.316 then he says there's the third kind of person, which, surprise, surprise, 0:19:21.476 --> 0:19:24.116 is most valuable of all, which is stay true to 0:19:24.196 --> 0:19:26.356 themselves and who are able to act in a crisis 0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:30.356 the way they would in an everyday situation. And that's 0:19:30.356 --> 0:19:33.516 another thing I guess I've been wondering about, kind of 0:19:33.556 --> 0:19:37.356 in relation to the kind of existentialist view of COVID, 0:19:38.476 --> 0:19:40.116 which is kind of what are we to do with 0:19:40.116 --> 0:19:43.156 what it makes of us? And how do we, on 0:19:43.236 --> 0:19:48.436 the one hand, kind of allow ourselves to think seriously 0:19:48.476 --> 0:19:50.996 about the things it forces us to think about, like 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:56.596 socio economic inequality, like our own lives, our own choices, 0:19:56.836 --> 0:20:00.836 without succumbing to the fallacy of kind. Everything I think 0:20:00.876 --> 0:20:04.756 in a period of isolation is true, or everything I 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:06.796 do in this moment is the essential part of me, 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:12.556 and probably those answers will be different to different people. Marta, 0:20:12.596 --> 0:20:15.676 thank you very very much for the conversation. I really 0:20:15.716 --> 0:20:17.516 I learned a huge amount. As always, it's so fun 0:20:17.556 --> 0:20:21.356 to talk to you. My pleasure. Listening to Marta really 0:20:21.396 --> 0:20:25.396 brought home to me two pretty different aspects of our 0:20:25.436 --> 0:20:31.396 inner experiences of sitting at home and reading books during Corona. 0:20:31.636 --> 0:20:34.956 On the one hand, that there's the individual experience. Marta 0:20:35.036 --> 0:20:38.356 talked about being Polish coming to the United States and 0:20:38.476 --> 0:20:42.236 how that affects her experiences in engaging with literature and 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:46.676 with ideas. Each of us has our own individual path 0:20:46.796 --> 0:20:52.236 to follow, and indeed, our conversation about existentialism puts the 0:20:52.316 --> 0:20:55.876 individual's judgment and the individual's ability to make a choice 0:20:56.316 --> 0:21:00.476 front and center. In our experiences. Yet at the same time, 0:21:00.676 --> 0:21:05.276 Marta also brought home that there's a universal collective experience 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:09.596 they were undergoing in relation to the coronavirus, and literature 0:21:09.756 --> 0:21:14.476 is a mechanism whereby we collectively process and think about experience. 0:21:15.196 --> 0:21:17.956 Books are meant to be read by more than one person. 0:21:18.276 --> 0:21:20.716 There are ways of engaging the world that are shared 0:21:21.036 --> 0:21:24.196 at least between the writer and the reader, and ideally 0:21:24.556 --> 0:21:29.196 of many more people as well. Our collective life experiences 0:21:29.436 --> 0:21:33.836 are being shaped by Corona. We're alone, but we're alone 0:21:33.876 --> 0:21:37.516 together until the next time I speak to you. Be careful, 0:21:37.876 --> 0:21:42.796 be safe, and be well. Deep background is brought to 0:21:42.796 --> 0:21:46.436 you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene Cott, 0:21:46.436 --> 0:21:50.116 with research help from zooe Wynn. Mastering is by Jason 0:21:50.116 --> 0:21:54.156 Gambrel and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our 0:21:54.196 --> 0:21:57.276 theme music is composed by Luis Gera special thanks to 0:21:57.316 --> 0:22:00.916 the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. 0:22:01.316 --> 0:22:04.156 I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a regular column for 0:22:04.236 --> 0:22:07.236 Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at Bloomberg dot com. 0:22:07.236 --> 0:22:11.596 Slash Feldman. To discus Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:15.356 to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. You can follow me 0:22:15.396 --> 0:22:19.356 on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background