1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: in our last episode we discussed what Ghosts of Evolution. 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: We gave you what was probably a very sobering episode 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: about the state of the world, the state of the 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: ecosystem and humanity's role in degrading it, and and the 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: forecast for the future which is not all that great. Yeah, 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: we talked about picking apart the web of life and 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: what happens and how it unravels and affects humans and 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: other species and other flora around the world. So we're 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: talking about trying to weave that web of life back 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: together in this episode, specifically with something called re wilding. 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: And the reason why it's so important is because we 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: have definitely squarely entered into something called the anthroposyne. Yes, UH, 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: this is of course the age of man UH and 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: this is when we did a whole episode on this UH, 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: which you can certainly go back to and find a 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: link to on the landing page for this podcast episode. 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: But this is the idea that in the past UH 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: vast changes in the world have been caused by uh, 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, changes in the global climate, ecological changes. But 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: in this age of man, we see the world being 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: changed by humanity. Yeah, is the first time a species 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: has become a greater force than the elements of nature. 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: And just to call back to the episode real quick, um, 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,639 Speaker 1: we're talking about the Holocene period previous to us ending 28 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: about two hundred years ago with the steam engine. And 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,919 Speaker 1: this is according to Ken Caldera, who is a climate 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: scientists of the Carnegie Institute of Science and California. Data 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: retreat from glacial ice cores show the beginning of a 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: growth in the atmosphere, a concentrations of several greenhouse gases 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: in chickul our CEO two and h four, which coincide 34 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: with the invention of the steam engine in seventeen eighty four. 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: We can look at these ice cores and be like, oh, hey, 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: that's evidence right there that this is when it began. 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: And there's plenty of other evidence that there's all sorts 38 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: of man made strata out there, but this is a 39 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: good example of how humans are are shaping the course 40 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: of the earth. Yeah. I mean, agriculture is another huge area, right, 41 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: you go back twelve thousand years in history, you see 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: the rise of agriculture. We stopped being hunter gatherers. We 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: stopped you know, going out here to get our plants 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: and going over here to try and catch or hunt 45 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: an animal. We said, hey, we can grow the crops 46 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: right here. And to do that, we have to change 47 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: the environment. We have to to take what was once 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: a a field, what was once afar us, which was 49 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: once you know, a bunch of shrubs, and turn it 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: into a one crop environment that is that is tightly 51 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: control by the humans that have made it, and then 52 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: eventually just pave over that, yeah, right, and build something 53 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: on top of it. So the idea here is can 54 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: we reverse the course of our actions, and can we 55 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: do this through something called rewilding, which we'll get to 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: in a moment, but before we should talk about human rewilding. 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: You know, in looking at this topic, uh, and and 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: the previous one, I keep thinking back to Daniel quinn 59 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: book Ishmael, which I know a number of our listeners 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: have probably read. Uh. The basic cell on the book, 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: of course, is a man talks to a talking gorilla. 62 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: But it's a it's a deep ecological philosophical work about 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: where where we are and where we're going, and and 64 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: and indeed, if we can do anything to stop what 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: we've done. Just to read a quick quote from it, 66 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: um Man's destiny was to conquer and rule the world, 67 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: and this is what he's done. Almost he hasn't quite 68 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: made it, and it looked as though this may be 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: his undoing. The problem is that man's conquest of the 70 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: world has itself devastated the world. And in spite of 71 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: all the mastery we've obtained, we don't have enough mastery 72 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: to stop devastating the world or to repair the devastation 73 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: we've already wrought. There's a part in the book where 74 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: Ishmael describes human culture and the rise of technology as 75 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: this this this pilot in an airplane. It's been pushed off, 76 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, like that's sort of like the experimental aircraft 77 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: of old. You know, you've all seen the footage they 78 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: pushed it off the top of building, off the side 79 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: of a cliff, and it ultimately is just plummeting. But 80 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: inside the aircraft, the individual is, you know, pumping hard 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: of the controls, pedaling the petals as fast as they can, 82 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: even though it's falling. It's falling, and it's just falling, 83 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, faster and faster, And but we keep doing 84 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: all the things that we're doing. We keep trying to 85 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: pilot this aircraft that simply is not going to fly. 86 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: It's not going to to prevent us from crashing into 87 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: the ground. So in this podcast, we're we're we're asking 88 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: that question, can we stuff the plane from crashing and 89 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: crashing the ground? What are some of the things we 90 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: can do to avoid devastation? First we have to get 91 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: out of the plane. Yes, Yeah, that's clear. They're right, 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: it's not working for us. And that's really what we're 93 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: talking about, like that that some of what we're doing, uh, 94 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: particularly from a technological angle, is not working for us. 95 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: And how do we get back to a solution that 96 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: does work for us? Well, rewilding in nature is certainly 97 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: a solution, and we'll talk about that in a moment, 98 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: But before we talk about re welding and nature, you've 99 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: got to talk about rewilding humans because that's where it begins. Yes, 100 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: and uh, as with a lot of things, rewilding, the 101 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: term already has various definitions, and it can already be 102 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: sort of taken to mean one thing or another um 103 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: in this In this sense human rewilding though is on 104 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: one level, it's about reconnecting with nature. Um, it's about integrating. 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: It's about combining time and nature with conscious living. It's 106 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: about it's not necessarily about just completely abandoning your life. 107 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: It's because it easily brings to mind, you know, the 108 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: idea of someone quitting their job, throwing their smartphone into 109 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: the ocean, and then trekking off into the woods to 110 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: eat you know, berries and field mice all day. But 111 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: but but it's about integration. It's about saying, all right, 112 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: what are some aspects of my life that I can 113 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: that I can bring back to nature. Uh, places in 114 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: my life where I can reconnect with nature and reconnect 115 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: with with the with the survival skills that that that 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: I originally had. I've also seen it described in terms 117 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: of of modern humans as being domesticated. You know, we're 118 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: the we're the were the house cats that have been 119 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: in the house so long that if we're suddenly outside 120 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: in the backyard, we're going to die within an hour 121 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: because we we we we we don't know how to 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: survive anymore. We've gotten away from our roots. Well, I 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: mean much of that is true because if you had 124 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: to go out and survive on your own in a forest, 125 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: it would be very difficult today, right unless someone had 126 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: passed down the skills to you or had paid to 127 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: get those skills, like through rewild Portland actually, which offers 128 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: a six month long rewilding immersion program you for the 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: for the low cost of five thousand dollars, you could 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: learn every sort of do it yourself thing, from metal 131 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: smith ing to hunting wild game and foraging skills. And 132 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: foraging skills I think are hugely important something that we 133 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: overlook because for for millennia, ancestors have been foraging for 134 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: food and that's how they largely subsisted. We tend to 135 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: think about, you know, this sort of paleo diet where 136 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: it's you know, a bunch of meat, punks of meat. 137 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is that we subsisted 138 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: on vegetation. So we've talked about this before. We've talked 139 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: about foraging and even into mafagey eating bugs as ways 140 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: to subsist um in ways that actually would have less 141 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: of an impact on environments and ecosystems. So the whole 142 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: human rewilding thing is hearkening back to a simpler time 143 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: and less of a reliance on technology. Yeah, and it's 144 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: it's easy to get the to get caught up in 145 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: the language of it too, because you know, we're saying 146 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: things like reconnect with nature and your past, and just 147 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: the mere fact that it sounds like the pitch for 148 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: an ongoing skit in the next season in Portlandia. You know, 149 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: it's easy to sort of dismiss the missilliness of it, 150 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: but but it is at heart about reconnecting with what 151 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 1: it is to be human of sort of relearning how 152 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: to be a human organism. Um. And a lot of 153 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: this is stuff that we we do feel a craving towards, 154 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: like the hunter gatherer thing. Most of us don't do 155 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: any kind of hunting and gathering, but I wonder to 156 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: what extent we end up scratching that itch when we 157 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: say get coupon crazy and we're looking for deals like 158 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: we're sort of we're sort of trying to recapture the 159 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: hunter gather or certainly I mean I grew up in 160 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: a in rural Tennessee and there are plenty of hunters 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: in that area, and uh, you know, in a large 162 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: part I feel A lot of that comes from a 163 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: culture of you know, you're reconnecting with with your past. 164 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: You know, this part of your heritage hunting for meat, 165 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: and even though you're not depending upon that dear meat 166 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: to feed your family as much anymore, you're you feel 167 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: pulled to the past. You feel like this is a 168 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: part of what you are as a as a as 169 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: a being, as an organism, and therefore you engage in it, 170 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: you know. I was recently in Taos, New Mexico, and 171 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: I visited the Taus Pueblo Settlements, which is um one 172 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: of the oldest Native American settlements UM in the United States. 173 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: And one of the things that one of the TAUSE 174 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: members was talking about is growing up in that village 175 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: which still practices the same sort of rituals, um and 176 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: day to day operations as they did a thousand years ago. 177 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: And there's no running water electricity there. And so she 178 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: said that as a child, she would run around, she 179 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: would go and get the water, she would bring it home. 180 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: She would be taught by the other children how to 181 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: fish with her hands right um. And they also played 182 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: up in the mountains. She said that was her backyard, 183 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: and they respected nature and they understood how to communicate 184 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: with nature. So she said mountain lions weren't a problem. 185 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: They weren't getting eaten by mountain lions because they were 186 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: so much more in tuned and had the information passed 187 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: down on how to deal with you know, these species 188 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: around them, and how to cultivate the flora around them. 189 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: And I thought this was it was such an amazing 190 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: place to visit, to see that people were still I 191 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: suppose you would say human rewilding, although all they were 192 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: doing is just following their ancestors way of living. As 193 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: with a lot of human endeavors, it's it's one of 194 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: those areas where we we end up complicating things several 195 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: times over because you see the mix of of ecological 196 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: responsibility here the the idea that if we all behave 197 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: just a little more in tune with with the environment 198 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: than than our than our individual footprint is less and 199 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: their overall environmental footprint is less, and and it can 200 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: all roll down to positive change. But then on the 201 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: other hand, it's a lot of this is is caught 202 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: up in heritage and culture and and and wanting to 203 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: reconnect with our past. Yeah, And the interesting thing about 204 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: that is that the flower I believe was her name, 205 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: who led the tour, was saying that for seventy years, 206 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: tas Pueblow Settlement UH had an ongoing lawsuit with the 207 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: government to reclaim lands, including Blue Lake, which is nearby, 208 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: and they were saying that because the government had taken 209 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: over national park land and they were giving it to 210 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: commercial entities, that a lot of their drinking water began 211 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: to get tainted and as a result, they began to 212 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: see their environment change. And that's exactly what we're going 213 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: to talk about today, this impact, this this web of life. 214 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: UM that you just change one little thing and there's 215 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: a cascade of events that follow. So this, to me 216 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: was such a good example of here's this group in place, 217 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: and little do we know here in the United States, 218 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: but their affecting change for the Clean Water Act right 219 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: and the Clean Air Act in the nineteen seventies, UM, 220 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: A lot of that was the movement from Native American 221 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: tribes saying we need to respect the land and act 222 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: with it. YEA, Even even though re wilding is relatively 223 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: new term, it is it's already kind of a big tent. 224 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: But just bear in mind when thinking about it that 225 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna go live off the 226 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: grid in the woods. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna, 227 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: you know, build a bunker and prepare for the apocalypse 228 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: and for you know, the hunt and gather amid the 229 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: shattered ruins of human civilization or anything like that. It 230 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: can be as simple as reminding yourself that nature exists, 231 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: taking the time too. And again, it's so easy to 232 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: fall in the traffic, making it just sound like hippie 233 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: feel good to read to some listeners, but just to 234 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: reconnect with nature and to realize that you are a 235 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: biological organism, and you are a part of the psychology, 236 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: and you do not stand outside of it, no matter 237 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: how unnatural the environments are that we've built for ourselves, 238 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: and the and and the structures that we depend on, 239 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: both the UH informational and physical UH. It can be 240 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: just as simple as as thinking about your choice is 241 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: a little more and in making those choices a little 242 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: more in step with the natural world. Yeah, definitely, it's 243 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: all about choices when you really think about it, and 244 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: perhaps even installing a Komodo dragon in your backyard. We'll 245 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: talk about that idea when we get back from mis 246 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:40,239 Speaker 1: brading all right, we're back. We've been talking about rewild 247 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: ng in the human sense, uh and in the idea 248 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: of undomesticating ourselves, about reconnecting with nature, uh and and 249 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: making better choices in our lives, all the things that 250 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: kind of fall under the semi ambiguous term of human 251 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: rewild Yeah. And now we're going to talk about re 252 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: wilding nature, which is a huge topic. So we could 253 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: talk about all the various projects going on with real wilding, 254 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: but we chose to really focus on something that George 255 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: Mombiante talked about in his TED talk. And we're talking 256 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: about re wild ing with wolves. But before you can 257 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: talk about real wilding with wolves, you have to talk 258 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: about how there was a mass extermination effort of wolves 259 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: for a very long period of time, at least in 260 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah. And it's a it's a it's 261 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: rather involved and fascinating topic when you get into it, 262 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: because there's several different layers to it. I mean, there's 263 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: the basic human fear of wolves, which is generally unfounded. 264 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: This is not a species that praise on humans. I 265 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: feel like we've discussed this in the past. Uh. The 266 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: wolf is is it's easy to build a wolf up 267 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: in your mind as this thing that it is not, 268 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: and so part of it is the fear of the wolf. 269 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: Part of it it also has to do with uh, 270 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: with the ways that we were already changing the world 271 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: and altering the environment and therefore altering the behavior of 272 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: the wolves. You know, suddenly we're trying to keep a 273 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: whole bunch of gray animals out here unmolested from you know, 274 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: basically trying to set the sheep or whatever apart from 275 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: the rest of the natural world. And then you get 276 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: upset when the wolves come to eat the sheep. Right, So, 277 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: I mean the right. There's part of this is agriculture. 278 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: Part of this is folk tale um. In fact, we 279 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: even talked about I think it was in New Mexico 280 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: there was a bus stop that was a caged bus 281 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: stop for children because the ridiculous fear that the wolves 282 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: were just out there ready to eat American children. Yeah, 283 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: there was a group that installed these because they were 284 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: against um, the protection of these subspecies of the gray wolf. 285 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: I believe so if you look at the fact that 286 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: before Europeans settled in the United States, there were two 287 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand wolves roaming in the country. And 288 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: then you look at the fact that by the new 289 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: conceemnities only a few hundred wolves remained in the lower 290 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: forty States. You get that um that wolves had been 291 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: hunted and exterminated to to quite a degree. Yeah, I mean, 292 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about putting up poison traps for them, putting 293 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: out of physical traps. Often they would put out two 294 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: physical traps so that they wouldn't just catch them with 295 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: one pot, catch them with two. Therefore, in trying to 296 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: ensure that this animal would be captured and killed rather 297 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: than just escaping injured. Now, the effected that can be 298 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: in something called the tropic cascade, which is an ecological 299 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: process which starts at the top of the food chain 300 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: and tumbles all the way down to the bottom. And 301 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: nothing illustrates this better than wolves, as told by George 302 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: Mombiat during his TED talk on rewilding, because he says 303 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: that after seventy years of wolves being absent in Yellowstone, 304 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: when they were reintroduced, there was a huge effect, Okay. 305 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: And the reason that they were reintroduced is that the 306 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: numbers of deer had just escalated and went crazy, and 307 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: because there was nothing to hunt them, Uh, they had 308 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: reduced the vegetation to mil They were just grazing all 309 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: over the place. So they thought, let's bring in a 310 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: couple of wolves, knocked down the population of deer, and 311 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: that'll that will help things, right, But really, it was 312 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: this whole wilderness that seemed to have sprung from the 313 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: reintroduction of these wolves. Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty impressive, 314 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: because again, you you expected the wolves to kill the deer. 315 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: You it was just in a situation. Oh well, the 316 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: bath water is a little too hot. Let's add a 317 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: little cold water and that will balance it out. But 318 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: as we've as we've made clear in our previous episode, 319 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: nature is more complicated than that. They're they're far there's 320 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: far much more going on. It's not just hot water 321 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: and cold water. Uh so, uh, what else happened? We 322 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: You see the deer starting to avoid the valleys and 323 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: gorges where they could be easily killed by the wolves. 324 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: So suddenly these areas are deer free. And so since 325 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: the deer are no longer there to munch everything down 326 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: to the ground, stuff starts growing up again. And so 327 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: very quickly you see these uh what had previously been 328 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, bear valleys are growing up into the forests again. Yeah, 329 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: Momba says that the high of trees quintippled in just 330 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: six years, and then you had forests of aspen and 331 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: willow and cottonwood. And then as soon as that happened, 332 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there was a whole neighborhood of 333 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: birds that moved in. And then the number of beavers 334 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: started to increase, because beavers like to eat trees, right, 335 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: and beavers, like wolves, are ecosystem engineers. We talked about 336 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: that in our last episode, about these keystone species affecting 337 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: oversized changed in their environment. Yes, so they're they're building 338 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: the rivers, they're providing habitats for otters and muskrats and 339 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: ducks and fish and reptiles and amphibians, and they're moving it. 340 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: And then also you see that the wolves are not 341 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: only eating the deer, right, they're also preying on coyotes. 342 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: And then because of that, the number of rabbits and 343 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: mice they begin to rise because we're not being killed 344 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: off by coyotes, which meant more hawks, more weasels, more foxes, 345 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: more badges, ravens, and bald eagles came down to feed 346 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: on the carrion that the wolves had left behind. Then bears, 347 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: they're like they got in on the game too, in 348 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: a large part because there's more shrubs growing, more berries. 349 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're, they're they want to hunt and gather, 350 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: and now there's more to hunt and gather from. But 351 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: now this is the thing that's not even the craziest 352 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: of changes, the fact that all these animals sprung up 353 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: once the wolf was reintroduced. The crazy thing is that 354 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: the behavior of the rivers, the actual landscape begins to change. Indeed, 355 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: because suddenly you're seeing it means changing the traffic alongside 356 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: the river. You know, what's walking around there is changing, 357 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: what's growing around the river, and is the vegetation changes. 358 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: It's it's affecting the stability of the waterways. Uh, there's 359 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: less erosion, less erosion, Yeah, it's it's actually changing the earth. Yeah, 360 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: and it's regenerating force which are stabilizing the banks that 361 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: the banks don't collapse as often as well, and then 362 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: they become more fixed, they meander less. And so really 363 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: what you have is this this more stabilized even kind 364 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: of moving in. Yeah. Now, of course it's worth noting 365 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: that there still is a golf course in Yellowstone Park. 366 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want anyone to forget that when 367 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: when thinking about the nature reclaiming this, Uh, this is beautiful, 368 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: but and it is a beautiful park. I've been there 369 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's fabulous, but there's still very much a 370 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: human footprint there. But but this really does uh, just 371 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: how the the the reintroduction of this one species. It's 372 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: like we we we we as humans have this tendency 373 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: we don't we don't realize the value of things until 374 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: they're gone, and this is kind of an example of that. 375 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: And by by putting something back, we begin to see 376 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: just how important it was to begin with. And I 377 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: love how this, like this should be a children's story 378 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: because it has that kind of role to it. You 379 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: put one thing back and then there this comes back, 380 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: and this comes back. It's it's kind of like a 381 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: more positive version of fig the big hearted nukes with 382 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: all of these, with the with the cascading effect. Well yeah, 383 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: I mean it's the reversal of the domino effect, and 384 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: it's amazing to see it unfold like this now. Mombott 385 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: also brings up an example of whales not necessarily rewilding them, 386 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: but understanding that whales provide an entire ecosystem unto themselves 387 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: as well and are a good example again of what 388 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: happens when you disrupt a species. And the Japanese government, 389 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: he says, had rationalized killing whales for a long time 390 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: because they thought, hey, the number of krill and fish 391 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: will rise if you remove the main predator, right, which 392 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: is again very hot water cold water understanding of how 393 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: nature works. It's far more complicated. It's far more complicated, 394 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: and it's really reliant poop. It turns out, specifically whale 395 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: poop in the oceans, because, as Mambiat says, they produce 396 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: what biologists politely call large fecal plumes when they come 397 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: to the surface. These are huge explosions of poop right 398 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: across the surface up in the photo zone where there's 399 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: enough light to allow photosynthesis to take place. And then 400 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: those big plumes of poop are basically fertilizing or stimulating 401 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: the growth of phytoplankton, and the plant plankton at the 402 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: bottom of the food chain is stimulating the growth of zooplankton, 403 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: which feeds the fish and the krill and all the 404 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: rest of it, which which ends up producing more and 405 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: more sea life for humans to eat. So without taking 406 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: them away, without reducing their numbers, you're already getting the 407 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: same results you're trying to achieve by their removal. Yeah, 408 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: if you remove them, you're actually reducing the amount of 409 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: fish and krill, which, to be fair, it does sound counterintuitive, right. 410 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: You would think you'd take the predator away, you'd have 411 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: more of a thing, But the predator poop is actually 412 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: the life force for the thing. Yeah, I mean it's 413 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: you can quote me on that. So that this this 414 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: raises the question, then is it Is it this simple? 415 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: Is there it? Could this be done in various environments 416 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: around the world. Could we just simply reintroduce a missing 417 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: keystone creature, a missing predator and therefore make the difference, 418 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: Like I can't help think of where my mom lives 419 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: out in the in rural Tennessee. Deer everywhere. It's just 420 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: just lousy with deer. You can hardly drive down the 421 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: road without almost hitting one. You just you look out 422 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: the window and they're like six out there looking through 423 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: at you because there's nothing to eat them. Even the 424 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: human hunters, who are you know, doing all they all 425 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: they can, they still can't kill enough to keep the 426 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: numbers down. Yeah, and in a national park setting, I 427 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: feel like this is a more straightforward proposition. But George 428 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: Mombiance says, hey, um, let's just go crazy with paleo ecology, 429 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: which is the study of past ecosystems. He says, why 430 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: not reintroduced introduce some of our lost megafauna, or at 431 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: least species closely related to those which have become extinct everywhere? 432 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: Why shouldn't all of us have a serengetti on our doorsteps? 433 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: And yeah, and this is where he gets into at 434 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: times controversial areas. That's certainly areas where they're playing people 435 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: who disagree with them, because on one level, you can say, yes, 436 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: let's reintroduce species that were lost to this particular area, 437 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: and in many cases you can. You can make those 438 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: efforts as well. Discuss there are there are some ongoing 439 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: rewilding efforts to do just that. Okay, so before we 440 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: get into some more of the wilder animals extinct animals, 441 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: let's talk about commodo dragons, because there are proponents of 442 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: rewilding the argue that commodo dragons may fill the gap 443 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: in Australia's ecosystem left by Megalania, which was a giant 444 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: lizard like species that disappeared thousands of years ago, and 445 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: this was a keystone species like the wolf. And so 446 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: their idea is that a bunch of roaming commodo dragons 447 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: could restore important ecological functions like controlling the population size 448 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: of native and introduced herbivores. So if you have a 449 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: bunch of herbivores that are just going to town on 450 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: the vegetation, you don't have enough vegetation there and that's 451 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: creating that trofic cascading effect and a negative of way. 452 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: Maybe you bring back the Commoto dragon, is the idea. Yeah, 453 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: it's kind of like in an office environment, you have 454 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: an employee that leaves and he suddenly realized, whoa, they 455 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: really played an important role here. We can't get them back, 456 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: but maybe we can get something else like them, such 457 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: as a Commoto dragon in the office place. Right. And 458 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: then there are some other ideas that I guess you 459 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: could say are a bit more along the wooly mammoth 460 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: uh bring back wagon, yeah, and really sort of going 461 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: more into the way back machine in terms of humanity's 462 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: impact on the environment and saying, uh, well, hey, we 463 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: used to have mega fauna everywhere. We used to have 464 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: not just elephants in Africa and in Asia, but we 465 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: had large pack of germs in Europe, UH, in the 466 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: in North America. So what the what can we do there? 467 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: Should should we bring We can't bring those creatures back. 468 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: As romantic as that idea is and it's fascinating as 469 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: the possible science of it is, it's it's not feasible 470 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: for the immediate future. So can we just take African 471 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: or Asian elephants and introduce them into modern day Europe, 472 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: into UH North America and and have them fill this 473 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: long lost role to revitalize the environment. Now, of course 474 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: this would require that we set aside land or even 475 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: reclaim land to do it, So that would certainly be 476 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that comes up in terms of 477 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: logistics and criticism um and they're often also or critics 478 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: that say, this is this would be a monumental effort, 479 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: and you're better off focusing on restoring the existing environment 480 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: and helping to maintain that, you know, actual species that 481 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: live in the environment. And if you're worried about because 482 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: the other side of it is that this would also 483 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: help out African and Asian elephants. Uh, And the critics 484 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: would argue, well, helping out African and Asian elephants, if 485 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: you're gonna do that, those efforts are best restricted to 486 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: Africa and Asia where where they naturally live, right. So, yeah, 487 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of religious stickle problems. You were talking 488 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: about transporting the animals, talking about exotic diseases, and then 489 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: as you had kind of already alluded to a poor 490 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: trek record of introducing or even keeping species that we 491 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: already have. So the idea is that you you start 492 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: rewilding and you take away, um the attention from from 493 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: the species that are already going extinct and need help, 494 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: and instead you're spending all your money in your attention 495 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: on these different parts in different species. Yeah, but it's 496 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: also worth pointing out that Mombat's ted talk is a 497 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: ted talk, and ted talks are are generally it's it's 498 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: you can think of in terms of of a lighted 499 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: beacon on the top of the hill, would be understanding 500 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: that humans are not actually going to follow that beacon 501 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: to the top of the hill. They're gonna maybe climb 502 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: it halfway. And if they climb it halfway, that's great. 503 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: Just by by seeing the beacon there, it gives us 504 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: a frame of reference. And yet we need that beacon, 505 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: right because we know that that is an example of 506 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: something that can be done in In fact, in her 507 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: book Rewilding the World, Caroline Fraser list twenty one rewilding 508 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: sites throughout the world in which habitats are intentionally being 509 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: rewild and species are reintroduced. And again let's think about 510 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: that wolf example again. You know that's the best case 511 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: scenario um in this sort of closed system already, but 512 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: you see a huge positive effects. So perhaps these projects 513 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: can bring about the same sort of change. See change 514 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: really And there are also a couple of other rewilding 515 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: projects of note, and you can definitely check these out 516 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: more if you want to find out more. Rewilding Europe 517 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: and Rewilding Siberia. Yeah, the Siberia one I found particularly 518 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: interesting because they're they're dealing in part with reintroducing wild horses, 519 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: which they can say could possibly save us from the 520 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: effects of global climate change. They say that in the winter, 521 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: the animals trample and flatten the snow that would otherwise 522 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: insulate the ground from cold air, and so that helps 523 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: prevent the frozen ground or permafrost from thawing and releasing 524 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: powerful greenhouse gases. So and again you see that cascading effect, right, 525 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean, just to hammer the nail home again. I mean, 526 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: over millions and millions and millions of years, life on 527 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: Earth evolves into a system that works. Events occur and 528 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: it has to uh, the settings have to adjust, but 529 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: then it finds its level again. But then humans come 530 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: along and just start messing with all the settings, turning 531 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: all the dials around. So rewilding in a large sense 532 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: is about saying, hey, what were the what were the 533 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: factory settings before humans came along? And even though we 534 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: can't go back to all of those factory settings, there 535 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: are things we can do. There are things we can say, well, 536 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: as humans as a culture, we don't really need this. 537 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: Maybe we can stop doing this. We can take this away. 538 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: Or here's something that we took away without any reason 539 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: at all. Why do we take all the wolves away? 540 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: What if we what do we give them back? And 541 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: and everybody and everything can reap the positive benefits of 542 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: that reintroduction. Yeah, I mean I think in a way 543 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: it's reframing our role in the anthropos syne. If we 544 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: know this is the age of man, and we know 545 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: that we're now creating the strata of man made materials. 546 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: The nuts should be empowering enough to say that we 547 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: could do something as simple as this, which is to 548 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: turn back the clock a bit and to reclaim some 549 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: of these lands and see these trophic cascadings in effect. 550 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: And David Biello, writing for Scientific American I think, had 551 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: a really good thought about this. He said, quote in 552 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: the end, wilderness is a state of mind. The natural 553 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: world can only persist now as a deliberate act of 554 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: human will that will require firm human purpose, as a 555 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: gesture of humility, yes, but also a form of self protection. 556 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: In other words, we don't really have a choice in 557 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: the matter. Yeah, the airplane is plummeting, it's not flying. 558 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: At some point you have to realize we need to 559 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: stop peddling and figure out something else that works, and 560 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: and there's never a better time than now. Indeed, A right, 561 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: So there you have it. As always, be sure to 562 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: check out the land Ding page for this podcast episode. 563 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: You'll find that at stuff to Blow your Mind dot 564 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: com you don't include links out to some of the 565 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: stuff that we've talked about here, including that Ted Talk, 566 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: which you'll probably want to check out as well, and 567 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: the homepage includes all of our blog posts, all of 568 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: our podcast episodes, all of our videos, anything and everything 569 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind you will find right there. 570 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: And what are your thoughts on this? Do you think 571 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: were Wilding could work? Do you think it's could work 572 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: in just certain areas of the world? Let us know 573 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: and you can send your thoughts to blow the mind 574 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com for more on this 575 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works 576 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: dot com.