Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: All Right, and this week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Rachel
Speaker 2: Winter and Rachel Steinman. They're the authors of a new
Speaker 2: book called Stay Golden Girls. Friendship Is the New Marriage.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk all things friends and let's get.
Speaker 1: Them on no.
Speaker 3: Hi. Hi.
Speaker 2: First of all, I just when I was reading your breakdown,
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, they're best friends with the same name,
Speaker 2: so obviously, I'm like, I'm sure you guys get that
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 3: It has made it easier for a lot of people.
Speaker 3: They're just basically threatening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like, how do you so, like in your
Speaker 2: group of friends, because I'm sure you guys have you
Speaker 2: know a group of friends? How do you know which
Speaker 2: one is which? Like are you a Rach? Is one
Speaker 2: a Rach and one's a Rachel? Like or is it
Speaker 2: a W versus an S? Like what is it?
Speaker 3: It's Yeah.
Speaker 4: They'll usually add a last name. But the funny thing
Speaker 4: is because this group has known each other for so long,
Speaker 4: quite often and the last names go back to like
Speaker 4: maiden names sometimes.
Speaker 2: So I still have my very best friend who I've
Speaker 2: been friends with her since middle school. She's still in
Speaker 2: my phone as her maiden name. Like she's she's not
Speaker 2: a no wiki to me. She's a pelophone. She'll always
Speaker 2: be a pelophone. So I'm like, that's like, I can't
Speaker 2: change her name. No, that's not who she is to me,
Speaker 2: Like my childhood was pelophone. Okay, So I've read a
Speaker 2: little bit about your history, but give the wind down
Speaker 2: listeners about the history on the rachels. How did you
Speaker 2: guys become best friends and your journey together?
Speaker 4: So Rachel and I met in college and which college
Speaker 4: we went to, U see Santa Barbara love beautiful and
Speaker 4: we actually are also both from We're both original Valley girls,
Speaker 4: grew up in the valley in Los Angeles, love it.
Speaker 4: But then we met actually at Santa Barbara, and that's
Speaker 4: where we became friends. Our relationship and I know Rachel
Speaker 4: will agree with this, has grown and deepened. So it
Speaker 4: was we knew we were going to be friends immediately
Speaker 4: when we met. It was within really Rachel's larger group
Speaker 4: that there was a big contingent from her high school,
Speaker 4: from Birmingham High School. So a bunch of those girls.
Speaker 4: I knew one of them from summer camp. So they
Speaker 4: all just pulled me in. So that's when Rachel we
Speaker 4: became friends in eighteen years old, and we had taken
Speaker 4: Teddy out of the room. I see her dog is
Speaker 4: obsessed with her. So we basically college, after college, twenties,
Speaker 4: the whole thing.
Speaker 3: I would say, by the time we were in our.
Speaker 4: Thirties and even more in our forties, our relationship deepened,
Speaker 4: really deepened. You know, you realize, as sort of grown
Speaker 4: ups in a way that where you have more and
Speaker 4: calm in that you know, the the top layer you
Speaker 4: sort of realized, okay, the top layers there, that's no problem.
Speaker 4: But then over time we just realized that we had
Speaker 4: actually grown much closer post college, and we the journey
Speaker 4: for this book started post pandemic, realizing how critical our
Speaker 4: girlfriend relationships, our female friendships were, you know, friendship being
Speaker 4: the antidote to loneliness basically, and you know, we were
Speaker 4: all pretty supportive of each other, a lot of cocktails
Speaker 4: on zoom.
Speaker 3: And that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: And then when the pandemic was more in the rear view,
Speaker 4: Rachel and I, you know, we can talk further about
Speaker 4: it and in terms of how this book came together,
Speaker 4: but that was really I think the birth of the
Speaker 4: idea for the book was post pandemic.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I get it. It's it's it's something
Speaker 2: too and you know, just again, your book is called
Speaker 2: Stakehold and girl friendship is the new marriage. And I
Speaker 2: have I'm lucky to have an amazing group of girls.
Speaker 2: We call ourselves the Queendom. But it's like those girls
Speaker 2: know me inside and out, and they know when I
Speaker 2: go quiet, what's going on.
Speaker 1: They know, you know.
Speaker 2: The other day something really kind of rocked me and
Speaker 2: I was upset, and my you know, friend was like,
Speaker 2: you want to walk, you want to talk, you want
Speaker 2: to and I'm like, no, I just and they're like, don't,
Speaker 2: don't go into your hole.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like because they we know what we do, right
Speaker 2: and so and our friends are there to support and
Speaker 2: I don't know what I would do without my friends
Speaker 2: because they were the only ones that got me through
Speaker 2: my divorce and every other hard thing in my life.
Speaker 2: Is at the end of the day, it's like we
Speaker 2: always say, like the men will come and go, but
Speaker 2: like the women are going to stay for life, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's that's kind of a joke we've always said,
Speaker 2: but it's true. I mean, in my life, the women
Speaker 2: have always stayed. They've been the most true and I've
Speaker 2: and I have had some friend breakups. And I'm curious
Speaker 2: do you guys touch on that at all in your book,
Speaker 2: because there's so many questions that I do get to,
Speaker 2: like how do people deal with friend friendship breakups because
Speaker 2: that's tough too, when you're like, it's been in these
Speaker 2: many years, or this happens and you know it's a
Speaker 2: it's a loss as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, And before I do that, by the way, I
Speaker 1: just want to say I love your group name, Queendom.
Speaker 1: That is amazing. I will get to your answer your
Speaker 1: question a second, but I just love hearing these names
Speaker 1: that friends have. That is something we're running into is
Speaker 1: how many girlfriends groups, whether it's through chats or whatever,
Speaker 1: have named themselves and it just love. I want to
Speaker 1: keep a running list of them because they have. That
Speaker 1: is fantastic. By the way, Queendom. So yeah, So our
Speaker 1: book is very bright and happy and joyful, and that
Speaker 1: was not by accident. You know the world is kind
Speaker 1: of a dark place right now, and we wanted to
Speaker 1: bring some positivity, some optimism, a feeling of being uplifted.
Speaker 1: So you know there are some serious topics in there
Speaker 1: around mental health, but we don't really go in deeply
Speaker 1: into the loss of friendships. It's more about the celebration
Speaker 1: of friendships. But it is a question we are getting
Speaker 1: asked a lot as we uh start on this kind
Speaker 1: of press tour now. And and Rachel can talk about that,
Speaker 1: but it's and and I'll just I'll start by saying
Speaker 1: that part of growing, you know, and Rachel and I
Speaker 1: have daughters, and and and Rachel has his son, is
Speaker 1: and learning about friendship is sometimes losing a friend. Just
Speaker 1: like if you go through a divorce with with your
Speaker 1: significant other and you and you lose someone that you
Speaker 1: once really cared for, were in loved, it's teaching you
Speaker 1: what to look for in the next relationship, or it's
Speaker 1: teaching you how to be a good friend in the
Speaker 1: current relationship.
Speaker 4: And that that's definitely what has happened to me. So
Speaker 4: losing a friend to who was kind of like a
Speaker 4: sister and a bestie in the whole thing. She's she's alive,
Speaker 4: thank god, but she's losing in terms of the brave
Speaker 4: out of the friendship and she we It has really
Speaker 4: helped me to understand my part in it, and we
Speaker 4: do talk about this in the book on the other
Speaker 4: side of It, which is basically the equivalent of a garden.
Speaker 3: If you plant seeds and.
Speaker 4: Flowers grow, but you don't water the flowers, they will die.
Speaker 4: And so for us it was the it was for us,
Speaker 4: it was these were or matured flowers that we didn't
Speaker 4: realize hadn't been properly watered and cared for. So you
Speaker 4: can kind of skate through for decades on a foundation
Speaker 4: of friendship, because you know, female friendship is very tight.
Speaker 4: There's a ton of loyalty. Hopefully those were.
Speaker 3: Not the issues, but you you know.
Speaker 4: When you've met somebody when you're young, you know there's
Speaker 4: that old saying, don't expect him to change, don't expect
Speaker 4: her to stay the same.
Speaker 3: Women evolve, we change, we grow.
Speaker 4: And without it properly cared for friendship, there can be
Speaker 4: fractures in the foundation. You don't even know they're there
Speaker 4: until faced with a real problem. So those are symptoms.
Speaker 4: If the symptoms go ignored, then your foundation is too
Speaker 4: shaky to make it through a real problem. So by
Speaker 4: the time my know, this dearest friend of mine, by
Speaker 4: the time we were really faced with just differences in
Speaker 4: how we were seeing the world. It was almost too
Speaker 4: late because we had not properly cared for that foundation,
Speaker 4: and it was super heartbreaking. It is absolutely like a death.
Speaker 4: I will mourn it for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3: I have, but it has.
Speaker 4: Like Rachel said, I haven't learned how to look at
Speaker 4: this and be like, well, I wouldn't. And I've apologized
Speaker 4: for my part for me like we're amazing, we're such besties.
Speaker 4: We're on a pedestal and not seeing the warning signs
Speaker 4: and being more communicative that my needs as a friend
Speaker 4: were not being met and maybe I wasn't meeting hers either,
Speaker 4: But my own inability to step up and say this
Speaker 4: isn't working for me and you're a lazy friend and
Speaker 4: you need to do better left us open to what
Speaker 4: ultimately happened to us.
Speaker 2: Maybe this is just me. I'm a defensive person. I
Speaker 2: get overly defensive at times as my first reaction is
Speaker 2: to be defensive, and so I'm not categorizing all women
Speaker 2: like that, but I know many that are like that too.
Speaker 2: So do you think we have a problem with hearing
Speaker 2: our friends say something to us? We get defensive, and
Speaker 2: that's usually the break of what how the break of
Speaker 2: the friendship starts is the defense?
Speaker 3: You know, it's a great question. I'm not one hundred
Speaker 3: percent sure. I think that it's what you.
Speaker 4: Said at the beginning of your statement, that it's the key.
Speaker 4: I do not think that women are used to communicating
Speaker 4: about these fractures, and so it's maybe more surprising.
Speaker 3: And I do feel like.
Speaker 4: If when maybe the initial is over, women are more
Speaker 4: likely to be able to be like, I'm really glad
Speaker 4: you said something.
Speaker 3: On some level, I was totally feeling the same thing.
Speaker 3: I didn't have the guts to say it. Thank you,
Speaker 3: let's work on it.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's something different too, And like, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm forty, so in my forties where I can go.
Speaker 2: This just happened a couple of weeks ago. I was like, oh, sorry,
Speaker 2: I was when I was I was short on the phone,
Speaker 2: I was having a day. I was a little defensive,
Speaker 2: you know, And then it's able to I think you're
Speaker 2: I'm at least able to now own more my pieces
Speaker 2: in all of my relationships, whereas I wasn't able to
Speaker 2: in my twenties at all, and not great in my
Speaker 2: thirties either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4: I think as we age and we get more, we
Speaker 4: mature and again involved and that I know Rachel, you know,
Speaker 4: is going to say that communication, that part of the
Speaker 4: communication is the key, you know.
Speaker 3: So I think it's all about me.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's those those arguments, those kind of coming
Speaker 1: to a head that really brings you closer. So what
Speaker 1: you said is I if you reach if you reach
Speaker 1: out to a friend and say I'm sorry, I was
Speaker 1: defensive and you start with yourself, that opens up that
Speaker 1: kind of dialogue and it often brings you so much closer.
Speaker 1: And it has happened with Rachel and I where we
Speaker 1: I will call her and just say like, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm acting, I acted this way, I stressed about whatever
Speaker 1: the situation is, and and she'll say to me like,
Speaker 1: oh I I could tell yeh, you know, like the
Speaker 1: understanding of like her, she knows me so well that
Speaker 1: just what but it but it had that doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker 1: That is those are communications. That's me calling and apologizing,
Speaker 1: that's her. And when we can be vulnerable and say
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, I was really defensive or I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have said it like that, or then that opens up
Speaker 1: the other person to say like, oh, I'm sorry, or
Speaker 1: oh how can I help you? And it just it
Speaker 1: just brings you closer. And so anytime you can be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: it's actually brave. So I'm a mental health advocate besides,
Speaker 1: you know, I started off as a teacher, but now
Speaker 1: I volunteer for National Alliance on Mental Illness. I go
Speaker 1: into middle schools and high schools and I talk to
Speaker 1: kids and parents and staff about warning signs for mental
Speaker 1: health issues, and I offer resources. But one of the
Speaker 1: things that I always talk about is asking for help
Speaker 1: is not weak. It's actually very brave, turning to a
Speaker 1: friend and saying like I suck or I was really
Speaker 1: like all of these Vulnerability is a superpower. And it's
Speaker 1: so interesting. You know. One of the one of the
Speaker 1: ways that we can be a good friend, believe it
Speaker 1: or not, is asking our friends for help because we're
Speaker 1: showing them like I need you to help me and
Speaker 1: and and it's a two way street, of course, like
Speaker 1: to have a friend, you have to be a friend.
Speaker 1: But I it's a great question, It really is a
Speaker 1: great question.
Speaker 2: So on the flip side of things, you know, in
Speaker 2: your book, what are some things that are that we
Speaker 2: can get from reading the book, Like, what are your
Speaker 2: favorite chapters? What's is there like a good story in
Speaker 2: there that you can give us, like give us a
Speaker 2: little teaser.
Speaker 3: Well, I happen to have a book right here.
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, why not? It's a book tour
Speaker 2: week exactly.
Speaker 3: You know, I guess you know. I always kind of
Speaker 3: go to.
Speaker 4: The first chapter of Friendship is the New Marriage.
Speaker 3: I think that the book and this.
Speaker 4: Chapter just the our process of realizing that the currency
Speaker 4: of female friendship is being valued and prioritized in a
Speaker 4: way it never has before. And I know you reference
Speaker 4: the difference between being in your twenties being in your forties,
Speaker 4: Like I think as women, we were really socialized.
Speaker 3: Like Okay, who's going to be your mate? Who you
Speaker 3: going to have children with?
Speaker 4: If that's your path, And then as we've gotten older,
Speaker 4: we realize like everything doesn't have to orbit around that
Speaker 4: that traditional layout. And then, you know, because we've been
Speaker 4: talking about this so much, and the best thing when
Speaker 4: writing this book, and this we touch on this all
Speaker 4: through the book, is that younger people, younger women are
Speaker 4: learning this in their twenties and they're talking about platonic
Speaker 4: romance they're like, yeah, I'm par if I end up
Speaker 4: finding the perfect whatever, prince, princess whatever, that fairy tale
Speaker 4: looks different for women younger than when we figured it out.
Speaker 4: And that's one of my favorite aspects of the book
Speaker 4: is just when that moment for us, when we realized
Speaker 4: that this prioritization of female friendships and the celebration of
Speaker 4: female friendships had gotten into the zeitgeist. So yeah, that's
Speaker 4: really kind of chapter one, how we tripped and fell
Speaker 4: into this idea that we are totally in love with
Speaker 4: and having way too much fun celebrating.
Speaker 2: I love that it makes me think about even just
Speaker 2: back in high school. I'm like, God, I wish I
Speaker 2: wasn't just chasing my high school boyfriend around and I
Speaker 2: was chasing my friends instead and like having so much
Speaker 2: more fun with friends like and just and I mean
Speaker 2: that led into the twenties too. I'm like, man, I
Speaker 2: just missed out on so many things because I was
Speaker 2: too obsessed about having a relationship when it should have
Speaker 2: been the relationship with my girlfriends as number one. Totally,
Speaker 2: it's just wild.
Speaker 1: So really quickly back to one of my favorite chapters
Speaker 1: is about how friendship is therapy. And as a like
Speaker 1: I mentioned, you know, mental health being so important. We
Speaker 1: know how great we feel after a girl's night. We
Speaker 1: know how much better we feel when we are sitting
Speaker 1: with a friend having that one on one time where
Speaker 1: just the time actually melts away and we're connecting and
Speaker 1: that kind of fight or flight energy is gone, and
Speaker 1: we are present and we are in the moment, and
Speaker 1: we are laughing and just we are. And this is
Speaker 1: what I talk about when I go and I speak
Speaker 1: to kids, the importance of not staring at screens and
Speaker 1: thinking that those are friendships, the importance of actually physically
Speaker 1: getting involved, joining clubs, joining sports, meeting a friend for
Speaker 1: your coffee, or in our instance as adults, you know,
Speaker 1: at a bar for our cocktail. How that literally changes
Speaker 1: not just our mental health, but it helps with our
Speaker 1: physical health. And there are studies about how loneliness is
Speaker 1: more detrimental to your health than smoking sixteen is at
Speaker 1: sixteen or thirteen cigarettes a day. It's just it's so
Speaker 1: important to be connected to a community. Because we evolved
Speaker 1: to be social creatures. We need our friends, and so
Speaker 1: I really do encourage kids to nurture those friendships and
Speaker 1: just the important that's really what this book is about
Speaker 1: a celebration of how wonderful having friendships are and does
Speaker 1: not matter where you live, what aisle you're on, side
Speaker 1: of the aisle you're on, we all can agree friendship
Speaker 1: is something we all want in our lives.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. What do you think is the best thing a
Speaker 2: best friend could do? Like the one thing that like,
Speaker 2: you're like this, this matters to to your friend. To
Speaker 2: remind the listeners that are listening to this.
Speaker 4: I mean, my answer is, you know, I think it's
Speaker 4: so boring, but it's really truly just listen and know
Speaker 4: when to shut the fuck up, and you do not
Speaker 4: don't have to fix me, you just saying I love you.
Speaker 3: That sucks. I'm team Rachel all the way. Whatever.
Speaker 4: Sometimes knowing the difference between trying to therapize me and
Speaker 4: trying to just be there, that's to me one of
Speaker 4: the best things the best friend can do.
Speaker 2: I agree Rachel us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say just presence. And by the presence
Speaker 1: it can mean similar to what Rachel says, just being
Speaker 1: there for the person. And you know, we have some
Speaker 1: friends sometimes that go silent, like you had mentioned you
Speaker 1: were doing, and that means knowing them well enough to
Speaker 1: if you don't hear from them, call and bug them.
Speaker 1: How are you check in on them? Just always letting
Speaker 1: them know that you are in their life. And as
Speaker 1: we know, you know, there's this saying like old friends,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how long you haven't seen each other.
Speaker 1: When you're together, it's as if time hasn't passed, right,
Speaker 1: It's all of that is kind of related. Even if
Speaker 1: you haven't seen each other, there's still that feeling that
Speaker 1: they are present in your life. And I can't imagine
Speaker 1: my life without my girlfriends. I mean, it's just I
Speaker 1: don't always get to see them, but I know they're there.
Speaker 1: I know that they are if I if I need something,
Speaker 1: I can reach out to them. So they are present,
Speaker 1: maybe not physically with me, but they are in my
Speaker 1: mind and always available as I am exactly.
Speaker 2: And this is your reminder right now to call your
Speaker 2: best friend, even if they're in a different state or
Speaker 2: in the same state, or you call them, you know,
Speaker 2: you just talk to them, call them, tell me love them,
Speaker 2: and then go get the book. Stay Golden Girls. Friendship
Speaker 2: is a New Marriage by Rachel Steinmont and Rachel Winter. Ladies.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on.
Speaker 3: Thank you We're so sweet.
Speaker 2: You guys are you guys are awesome. And when I
Speaker 2: make it to the valley, I'll call up the Rachels
Speaker 2: and we'll go out.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, we love that.
Speaker 5: Let's go Grabbager perfect all right, bye, ladies, take care him.
Speaker 4: Hmm.