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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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Speaker 2: All Right, and this week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Rachel

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Speaker 2: Winter and Rachel Steinman. They're the authors of a new

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Speaker 2: book called Stay Golden Girls. Friendship Is the New Marriage.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk all things friends and let's get.

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Speaker 1: Them on no.

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Speaker 3: Hi. Hi.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I just when I was reading your breakdown,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, they're best friends with the same name,

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Speaker 2: so obviously, I'm like, I'm sure you guys get that

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Speaker 2: all the time.

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Speaker 3: It has made it easier for a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: They're just basically threatening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but like, how do you so, like in your

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Speaker 2: group of friends, because I'm sure you guys have you

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Speaker 2: know a group of friends? How do you know which

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Speaker 2: one is which? Like are you a Rach? Is one

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Speaker 2: a Rach and one's a Rachel? Like or is it

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Speaker 2: a W versus an S? Like what is it?

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Speaker 3: It's Yeah.

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Speaker 4: They'll usually add a last name. But the funny thing

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Speaker 4: is because this group has known each other for so long,

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Speaker 4: quite often and the last names go back to like

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Speaker 4: maiden names sometimes.

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Speaker 2: So I still have my very best friend who I've

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Speaker 2: been friends with her since middle school. She's still in

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Speaker 2: my phone as her maiden name. Like she's she's not

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Speaker 2: a no wiki to me. She's a pelophone. She'll always

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Speaker 2: be a pelophone. So I'm like, that's like, I can't

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Speaker 2: change her name. No, that's not who she is to me,

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Speaker 2: Like my childhood was pelophone. Okay, So I've read a

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Speaker 2: little bit about your history, but give the wind down

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Speaker 2: listeners about the history on the rachels. How did you

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Speaker 2: guys become best friends and your journey together?

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Speaker 4: So Rachel and I met in college and which college

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Speaker 4: we went to, U see Santa Barbara love beautiful and

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Speaker 4: we actually are also both from We're both original Valley girls,

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Speaker 4: grew up in the valley in Los Angeles, love it.

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Speaker 4: But then we met actually at Santa Barbara, and that's

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Speaker 4: where we became friends. Our relationship and I know Rachel

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Speaker 4: will agree with this, has grown and deepened. So it

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Speaker 4: was we knew we were going to be friends immediately

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Speaker 4: when we met. It was within really Rachel's larger group

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Speaker 4: that there was a big contingent from her high school,

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Speaker 4: from Birmingham High School. So a bunch of those girls.

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Speaker 4: I knew one of them from summer camp. So they

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Speaker 4: all just pulled me in. So that's when Rachel we

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Speaker 4: became friends in eighteen years old, and we had taken

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Speaker 4: Teddy out of the room. I see her dog is

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Speaker 4: obsessed with her. So we basically college, after college, twenties,

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Speaker 4: the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: I would say, by the time we were in our.

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Speaker 4: Thirties and even more in our forties, our relationship deepened,

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Speaker 4: really deepened. You know, you realize, as sort of grown

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Speaker 4: ups in a way that where you have more and

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Speaker 4: calm in that you know, the the top layer you

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Speaker 4: sort of realized, okay, the top layers there, that's no problem.

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Speaker 4: But then over time we just realized that we had

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Speaker 4: actually grown much closer post college, and we the journey

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Speaker 4: for this book started post pandemic, realizing how critical our

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Speaker 4: girlfriend relationships, our female friendships were, you know, friendship being

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Speaker 4: the antidote to loneliness basically, and you know, we were

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Speaker 4: all pretty supportive of each other, a lot of cocktails

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Speaker 4: on zoom.

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Speaker 3: And that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: And then when the pandemic was more in the rear view,

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Speaker 4: Rachel and I, you know, we can talk further about

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Speaker 4: it and in terms of how this book came together,

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Speaker 4: but that was really I think the birth of the

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Speaker 4: idea for the book was post pandemic.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, I get it. It's it's it's something

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Speaker 2: too and you know, just again, your book is called

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Speaker 2: Stakehold and girl friendship is the new marriage. And I

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Speaker 2: have I'm lucky to have an amazing group of girls.

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Speaker 2: We call ourselves the Queendom. But it's like those girls

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Speaker 2: know me inside and out, and they know when I

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Speaker 2: go quiet, what's going on.

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Speaker 1: They know, you know.

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Speaker 2: The other day something really kind of rocked me and

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Speaker 2: I was upset, and my you know, friend was like,

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Speaker 2: you want to walk, you want to talk, you want

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Speaker 2: to and I'm like, no, I just and they're like, don't,

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Speaker 2: don't go into your hole.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's like because they we know what we do, right

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Speaker 2: and so and our friends are there to support and

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Speaker 2: I don't know what I would do without my friends

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Speaker 2: because they were the only ones that got me through

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Speaker 2: my divorce and every other hard thing in my life.

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Speaker 2: Is at the end of the day, it's like we

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Speaker 2: always say, like the men will come and go, but

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Speaker 2: like the women are going to stay for life, you know.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's kind of a joke we've always said,

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Speaker 2: but it's true. I mean, in my life, the women

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Speaker 2: have always stayed. They've been the most true and I've

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Speaker 2: and I have had some friend breakups. And I'm curious

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Speaker 2: do you guys touch on that at all in your book,

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Speaker 2: because there's so many questions that I do get to,

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Speaker 2: like how do people deal with friend friendship breakups because

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Speaker 2: that's tough too, when you're like, it's been in these

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Speaker 2: many years, or this happens and you know it's a

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Speaker 2: it's a loss as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And before I do that, by the way, I

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Speaker 1: just want to say I love your group name, Queendom.

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Speaker 1: That is amazing. I will get to your answer your

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Speaker 1: question a second, but I just love hearing these names

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Speaker 1: that friends have. That is something we're running into is

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Speaker 1: how many girlfriends groups, whether it's through chats or whatever,

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Speaker 1: have named themselves and it just love. I want to

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Speaker 1: keep a running list of them because they have. That

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Speaker 1: is fantastic. By the way, Queendom. So yeah, So our

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Speaker 1: book is very bright and happy and joyful, and that

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Speaker 1: was not by accident. You know the world is kind

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Speaker 1: of a dark place right now, and we wanted to

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Speaker 1: bring some positivity, some optimism, a feeling of being uplifted.

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Speaker 1: So you know there are some serious topics in there

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Speaker 1: around mental health, but we don't really go in deeply

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Speaker 1: into the loss of friendships. It's more about the celebration

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Speaker 1: of friendships. But it is a question we are getting

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Speaker 1: asked a lot as we uh start on this kind

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Speaker 1: of press tour now. And and Rachel can talk about that,

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Speaker 1: but it's and and I'll just I'll start by saying

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Speaker 1: that part of growing, you know, and Rachel and I

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Speaker 1: have daughters, and and and Rachel has his son, is

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Speaker 1: and learning about friendship is sometimes losing a friend. Just

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Speaker 1: like if you go through a divorce with with your

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Speaker 1: significant other and you and you lose someone that you

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Speaker 1: once really cared for, were in loved, it's teaching you

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Speaker 1: what to look for in the next relationship, or it's

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Speaker 1: teaching you how to be a good friend in the

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Speaker 1: current relationship.

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Speaker 4: And that that's definitely what has happened to me. So

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Speaker 4: losing a friend to who was kind of like a

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Speaker 4: sister and a bestie in the whole thing. She's she's alive,

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Speaker 4: thank god, but she's losing in terms of the brave

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Speaker 4: out of the friendship and she we It has really

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Speaker 4: helped me to understand my part in it, and we

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Speaker 4: do talk about this in the book on the other

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Speaker 4: side of It, which is basically the equivalent of a garden.

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Speaker 3: If you plant seeds and.

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Speaker 4: Flowers grow, but you don't water the flowers, they will die.

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Speaker 4: And so for us it was the it was for us,

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Speaker 4: it was these were or matured flowers that we didn't

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Speaker 4: realize hadn't been properly watered and cared for. So you

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Speaker 4: can kind of skate through for decades on a foundation

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Speaker 4: of friendship, because you know, female friendship is very tight.

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Speaker 4: There's a ton of loyalty. Hopefully those were.

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Speaker 3: Not the issues, but you you know.

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Speaker 4: When you've met somebody when you're young, you know there's

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Speaker 4: that old saying, don't expect him to change, don't expect

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Speaker 4: her to stay the same.

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Speaker 3: Women evolve, we change, we grow.

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Speaker 4: And without it properly cared for friendship, there can be

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Speaker 4: fractures in the foundation. You don't even know they're there

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Speaker 4: until faced with a real problem. So those are symptoms.

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Speaker 4: If the symptoms go ignored, then your foundation is too

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Speaker 4: shaky to make it through a real problem. So by

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Speaker 4: the time my know, this dearest friend of mine, by

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Speaker 4: the time we were really faced with just differences in

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Speaker 4: how we were seeing the world. It was almost too

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Speaker 4: late because we had not properly cared for that foundation,

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Speaker 4: and it was super heartbreaking. It is absolutely like a death.

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Speaker 4: I will mourn it for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 3: I have, but it has.

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Speaker 4: Like Rachel said, I haven't learned how to look at

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Speaker 4: this and be like, well, I wouldn't. And I've apologized

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Speaker 4: for my part for me like we're amazing, we're such besties.

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Speaker 4: We're on a pedestal and not seeing the warning signs

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Speaker 4: and being more communicative that my needs as a friend

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Speaker 4: were not being met and maybe I wasn't meeting hers either,

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Speaker 4: But my own inability to step up and say this

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Speaker 4: isn't working for me and you're a lazy friend and

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Speaker 4: you need to do better left us open to what

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Speaker 4: ultimately happened to us.

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Speaker 2: Maybe this is just me. I'm a defensive person. I

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Speaker 2: get overly defensive at times as my first reaction is

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Speaker 2: to be defensive, and so I'm not categorizing all women

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Speaker 2: like that, but I know many that are like that too.

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Speaker 2: So do you think we have a problem with hearing

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Speaker 2: our friends say something to us? We get defensive, and

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Speaker 2: that's usually the break of what how the break of

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Speaker 2: the friendship starts is the defense?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a great question. I'm not one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent sure. I think that it's what you.

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Speaker 4: Said at the beginning of your statement, that it's the key.

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Speaker 4: I do not think that women are used to communicating

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Speaker 4: about these fractures, and so it's maybe more surprising.

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Speaker 3: And I do feel like.

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Speaker 4: If when maybe the initial is over, women are more

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Speaker 4: likely to be able to be like, I'm really glad

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Speaker 4: you said something.

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Speaker 3: On some level, I was totally feeling the same thing.

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Speaker 3: I didn't have the guts to say it. Thank you,

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Speaker 3: let's work on it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's something different too, And like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm forty, so in my forties where I can go.

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Speaker 2: This just happened a couple of weeks ago. I was like, oh, sorry,

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Speaker 2: I was when I was I was short on the phone,

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Speaker 2: I was having a day. I was a little defensive,

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Speaker 2: you know, And then it's able to I think you're

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Speaker 2: I'm at least able to now own more my pieces

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Speaker 2: in all of my relationships, whereas I wasn't able to

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Speaker 2: in my twenties at all, and not great in my

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Speaker 2: thirties either.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: I think as we age and we get more, we

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Speaker 4: mature and again involved and that I know Rachel, you know,

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Speaker 4: is going to say that communication, that part of the

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Speaker 4: communication is the key, you know.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's all about me.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it's those those arguments, those kind of coming

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Speaker 1: to a head that really brings you closer. So what

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Speaker 1: you said is I if you reach if you reach

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Speaker 1: out to a friend and say I'm sorry, I was

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Speaker 1: defensive and you start with yourself, that opens up that

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Speaker 1: kind of dialogue and it often brings you so much closer.

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Speaker 1: And it has happened with Rachel and I where we

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Speaker 1: I will call her and just say like, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm acting, I acted this way, I stressed about whatever

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Speaker 1: the situation is, and and she'll say to me like,

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Speaker 1: oh I I could tell yeh, you know, like the

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Speaker 1: understanding of like her, she knows me so well that

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Speaker 1: just what but it but it had that doesn't happen overnight.

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Speaker 1: That is those are communications. That's me calling and apologizing,

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Speaker 1: that's her. And when we can be vulnerable and say

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Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, I was really defensive or I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have said it like that, or then that opens up

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Speaker 1: the other person to say like, oh, I'm sorry, or

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Speaker 1: oh how can I help you? And it just it

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Speaker 1: just brings you closer. And so anytime you can be vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: it's actually brave. So I'm a mental health advocate besides,

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Speaker 1: you know, I started off as a teacher, but now

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Speaker 1: I volunteer for National Alliance on Mental Illness. I go

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Speaker 1: into middle schools and high schools and I talk to

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Speaker 1: kids and parents and staff about warning signs for mental

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Speaker 1: health issues, and I offer resources. But one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I always talk about is asking for help

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Speaker 1: is not weak. It's actually very brave, turning to a

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Speaker 1: friend and saying like I suck or I was really

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Speaker 1: like all of these Vulnerability is a superpower. And it's

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Speaker 1: so interesting. You know. One of the one of the

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Speaker 1: ways that we can be a good friend, believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, is asking our friends for help because we're

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Speaker 1: showing them like I need you to help me and

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Speaker 1: and and it's a two way street, of course, like

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Speaker 1: to have a friend, you have to be a friend.

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Speaker 1: But I it's a great question, It really is a

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Speaker 1: great question.

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Speaker 2: So on the flip side of things, you know, in

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Speaker 2: your book, what are some things that are that we

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Speaker 2: can get from reading the book, Like, what are your

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Speaker 2: favorite chapters? What's is there like a good story in

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Speaker 2: there that you can give us, like give us a

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Speaker 2: little teaser.

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Speaker 3: Well, I happen to have a book right here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, come on, why not? It's a book tour

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Speaker 2: week exactly.

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Speaker 3: You know, I guess you know. I always kind of

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Speaker 3: go to.

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Speaker 4: The first chapter of Friendship is the New Marriage.

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Speaker 3: I think that the book and this.

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Speaker 4: Chapter just the our process of realizing that the currency

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Speaker 4: of female friendship is being valued and prioritized in a

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Speaker 4: way it never has before. And I know you reference

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Speaker 4: the difference between being in your twenties being in your forties,

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Speaker 4: Like I think as women, we were really socialized.

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Speaker 3: Like Okay, who's going to be your mate? Who you

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Speaker 3: going to have children with?

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Speaker 4: If that's your path, And then as we've gotten older,

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Speaker 4: we realize like everything doesn't have to orbit around that

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Speaker 4: that traditional layout. And then, you know, because we've been

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Speaker 4: talking about this so much, and the best thing when

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Speaker 4: writing this book, and this we touch on this all

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Speaker 4: through the book, is that younger people, younger women are

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Speaker 4: learning this in their twenties and they're talking about platonic

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Speaker 4: romance they're like, yeah, I'm par if I end up

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Speaker 4: finding the perfect whatever, prince, princess whatever, that fairy tale

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Speaker 4: looks different for women younger than when we figured it out.

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Speaker 4: And that's one of my favorite aspects of the book

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Speaker 4: is just when that moment for us, when we realized

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Speaker 4: that this prioritization of female friendships and the celebration of

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Speaker 4: female friendships had gotten into the zeitgeist. So yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: really kind of chapter one, how we tripped and fell

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Speaker 4: into this idea that we are totally in love with

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Speaker 4: and having way too much fun celebrating.

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Speaker 2: I love that it makes me think about even just

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Speaker 2: back in high school. I'm like, God, I wish I

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Speaker 2: wasn't just chasing my high school boyfriend around and I

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Speaker 2: was chasing my friends instead and like having so much

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Speaker 2: more fun with friends like and just and I mean

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Speaker 2: that led into the twenties too. I'm like, man, I

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Speaker 2: just missed out on so many things because I was

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Speaker 2: too obsessed about having a relationship when it should have

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Speaker 2: been the relationship with my girlfriends as number one. Totally,

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Speaker 2: it's just wild.

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Speaker 1: So really quickly back to one of my favorite chapters

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Speaker 1: is about how friendship is therapy. And as a like

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, you know, mental health being so important. We

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Speaker 1: know how great we feel after a girl's night. We

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Speaker 1: know how much better we feel when we are sitting

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Speaker 1: with a friend having that one on one time where

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Speaker 1: just the time actually melts away and we're connecting and

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Speaker 1: that kind of fight or flight energy is gone, and

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Speaker 1: we are present and we are in the moment, and

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Speaker 1: we are laughing and just we are. And this is

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Speaker 1: what I talk about when I go and I speak

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Speaker 1: to kids, the importance of not staring at screens and

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Speaker 1: thinking that those are friendships, the importance of actually physically

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Speaker 1: getting involved, joining clubs, joining sports, meeting a friend for

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Speaker 1: your coffee, or in our instance as adults, you know,

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Speaker 1: at a bar for our cocktail. How that literally changes

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Speaker 1: not just our mental health, but it helps with our

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Speaker 1: physical health. And there are studies about how loneliness is

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Speaker 1: more detrimental to your health than smoking sixteen is at

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Speaker 1: sixteen or thirteen cigarettes a day. It's just it's so

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Speaker 1: important to be connected to a community. Because we evolved

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Speaker 1: to be social creatures. We need our friends, and so

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Speaker 1: I really do encourage kids to nurture those friendships and

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Speaker 1: just the important that's really what this book is about

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Speaker 1: a celebration of how wonderful having friendships are and does

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Speaker 1: not matter where you live, what aisle you're on, side

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Speaker 1: of the aisle you're on, we all can agree friendship

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Speaker 1: is something we all want in our lives.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. What do you think is the best thing a

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Speaker 2: best friend could do? Like the one thing that like,

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Speaker 2: you're like this, this matters to to your friend. To

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Speaker 2: remind the listeners that are listening to this.

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Speaker 4: I mean, my answer is, you know, I think it's

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Speaker 4: so boring, but it's really truly just listen and know

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Speaker 4: when to shut the fuck up, and you do not

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Speaker 4: don't have to fix me, you just saying I love you.

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Speaker 3: That sucks. I'm team Rachel all the way. Whatever.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes knowing the difference between trying to therapize me and

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Speaker 4: trying to just be there, that's to me one of

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Speaker 4: the best things the best friend can do.

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Speaker 2: I agree Rachel us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say just presence. And by the presence

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Speaker 1: it can mean similar to what Rachel says, just being

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Speaker 1: there for the person. And you know, we have some

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Speaker 1: friends sometimes that go silent, like you had mentioned you

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Speaker 1: were doing, and that means knowing them well enough to

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Speaker 1: if you don't hear from them, call and bug them.

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Speaker 1: How are you check in on them? Just always letting

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Speaker 1: them know that you are in their life. And as

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Speaker 1: we know, you know, there's this saying like old friends,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how long you haven't seen each other.

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Speaker 1: When you're together, it's as if time hasn't passed, right,

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Speaker 1: It's all of that is kind of related. Even if

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen each other, there's still that feeling that

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Speaker 1: they are present in your life. And I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: my life without my girlfriends. I mean, it's just I

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Speaker 1: don't always get to see them, but I know they're there.

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Speaker 1: I know that they are if I if I need something,

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Speaker 1: I can reach out to them. So they are present,

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Speaker 1: maybe not physically with me, but they are in my

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Speaker 1: mind and always available as I am exactly.

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Speaker 2: And this is your reminder right now to call your

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Speaker 2: best friend, even if they're in a different state or

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Speaker 2: in the same state, or you call them, you know,

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Speaker 2: you just talk to them, call them, tell me love them,

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Speaker 2: and then go get the book. Stay Golden Girls. Friendship

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Speaker 2: is a New Marriage by Rachel Steinmont and Rachel Winter. Ladies.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on.

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Speaker 3: Thank you We're so sweet.

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Speaker 2: You guys are you guys are awesome. And when I

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Speaker 2: make it to the valley, I'll call up the Rachels

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Speaker 2: and we'll go out.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we love that.

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Speaker 5: Let's go Grabbager perfect all right, bye, ladies, take care him.

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Speaker 4: Hmm.