WEBVTT - He Rode The Bitcoin Boom All The Way Up, And Down 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.960 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.840 I'm Joe Wise and Paul and I'm Tracy. Allowit Happy 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.079 New Year? Tracy. Oh, you're gonna make me say it 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.160 Happy New Year? Is that something you hate saying? Okay, 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.680 I'm sorry, but I hate saying it like beyond the 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.600 first day afternoon. That's fair because it just goes on 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.320 and on and on for a week, That's fair. It 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.599 just felt like it's been a long time since we've 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.000 recorded one together because we had the holiday disruptions and stuff. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.760 I was just very excited about back, getting back into 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.480 the rhythm and doing another episode with you. Right, we 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.559 we got the band back together, exactly. I'm also really 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.400 excited about this one because we're going to return to 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.760 one of our favorite topics, a recurring theme throughout Odd Lots, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.280 and that is bubbles, which I think we both agree 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.920 is just an endless apply, a rich load to mind 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.760 for topics to discuss and markets, absolutely and a fascinating 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:12.400 experiment in human psychology and how people react to uh 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.520 making a lot of money and then losing a lot 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:16.800 of money as well. Exactly. I mean, there are so 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.800 many bubbles throughout history and you each have their own 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:24.080 sort of distinct element, but it seems like the psychology 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.760 element of how humans react to huge price swings on 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.200 the way up to people making a fortune in a 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.720 short period of time is very consistent throughout basically every 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.119 bubble we talk about, and in fact, you even see 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.400 charts that are sort of like the the cliche bubble 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.720 of you know, fear of missing out and optimism and 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.280 then people buy back in at the top and this 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:51.920 sort of there's a steady psychological component or cycle to 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:57.400 every bubble that basically is identical. Absolutely, So, which particular 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:59.880 bubble are we going to be discussing today, Well, today 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.160 going to not only be talking about one of the 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.560 recent most sort of extraordinary topical bubbles of our time. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.639 We're gonna be talking, of course about bitcoin and crypto 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:16.000 more broadly. We actually rather talking to some historian or 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.079 some academic who's done a study, we actually have the 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.080 good fortune of talking to someone who participated in the 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:29.640 bubble on the upside and the downside, someone directly involved 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.040 with it, so we can hear, you know, straight from 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:36.000 the source, what it's like to ride an extreme bubble. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.960 Our guest today, recently, uh did a tweet storm in 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.200 which he talked about starting with a very small amount 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.440 of money and making an absolute fortune in a crypto 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.079 and most of it made in and then seeing much 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:53.920 of it deteriorate in eighteen So we get to we 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:55.680 get to go right for the source, I would say 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.399 on this one. So I'm really excited about this one 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.400 parta cularly since it's bitcoin and bitcoin it's not just 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.600 a bubble, right, It's almost a belief system. So I'll 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.080 be really interested to hear what our guest has to 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.680 say about whether or not he still believes in all 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.240 things bitcoin slash creep. I agree, and I suspect he 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.559 still does because with us today we have Peter McCormick. 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.600 If you follow him on Twitter, he tweets a lot 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.359 about bitcoin still. He's also the author of his own 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.680 podcast called What Bitcoin Did. So I'm confident on that 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:33.520 last part, Peter. Peter, thank you very much for joining 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.320 us and telling us about your experience, no worries, Thank 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.880 you for having me on. And Happy New Year, Tracy. 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:44.320 Oh god, So, Peter, tell us, how did you first 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.160 get into a bitcoin? So really a couple of times. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.320 I first found it in two thousand thirteen. Um, I 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.200 was worked in tech, so I heard about it and 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.800 I can't remember the website, checked it out. Look kind 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.120 of interested in roade that bubble. For a kind of 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.080 about a week or two, I was trading CFD s 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:10.240 on plus five and you know, made and lost a 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.360 small amount of money in comparison to the last year, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.680 and then kind of forgot about it. And then in 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.279 December sixteen. It's quite a sad story, sorry, but my 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.560 mother was dying from cancer and we wanted to get 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.919 a certain treatment for her that was only available for 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.760 purchase with bitcoin. So I said to my dad, I 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.640 can do this. So I went on to Google, did 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.839 a search, found coin base, UM, bought a bitcoin, bought 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:38.120 the treatment. Sadly she passed away. UM. But my parents 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.960 lived in this like in the middle of nowhere in Ireland, 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.160 so I was out there for a week and I 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.920 just kind of went back on coin Base, transferred the 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.479 leftover bitcoin back and there was this ethereum thing. So 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.080 I was in between. I was out of work. I 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.880 used to have an advertising agency UM that fabulously collapsed 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.160 at one point, and but I had money left over 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.840 from that, so I thought, you know what, I'm going 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.640 to check this out. So I checked out a theoryum 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.960 and bitcoin and the whole journey started. Then I put 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.200 twenty three thousand pounding. I think it's about thirty two 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:09.800 thousand dollars, which I don't by the way, I don't 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.520 think is a small amount of money. But and just 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.960 went on this epic ride for what's two years. Now. Well, 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.559 I'm sorry to hear about those misfortunes. So you said, um, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.680 thirty two thousand dollars roughly. How much did you end 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.560 up making at the very top. Well, it's funny, it's 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.719 funny you say that. So I guess I didn't end 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.120 up making any because I didn't cash in. But the 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.560 portfolio value at its peak was over one point two 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.839 million dollars, you know, so what if I was looking 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.960 in my portfolio, that was the value and that was 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:46.720 about January sev. Now, talk to us about the psychology 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.720 on the way up, because one of the things that 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:53.359 I find really interesting about bubbles is it feels good 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.039 to make a lot of money and see your net 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.800 worth on the screen continue to go up. But what 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:01.760 I'm always curious about it is like, did it stress 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.920 you out? Also? On the way Up, Like, did you 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.360 get upset with yourself for not buying more in the beginning, 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.800 did you start to stress out about timing the top? Like, 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.560 talk to us about what that was like from this 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.600 sort of you know, not a nothing investment, a modest 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.360 investment to an extraordinary amount of money. That's sort of 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:24.640 just let's talk about the psychology of the Way Up 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.440 a bit. No, I wasn't really stressed out. I mean 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.400 a couple of times I thought, you know, I should 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:30.840 have put some more in. You know, I had more 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.240 money available at the time, but I didn't really worry 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.400 about that because you know, when you're at one point 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.600 two million, you kind of it doesn't really matter, does it. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.560 You're just like um. And it wasn't stressful at all. 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.120 It was just a lot of fun and opened a 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.960 lot of doors for me. I've met a whole bunch 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.800 of people. I've launched this podcast and it's created a 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.040 whole life for me. So, you know, it wasn't stressful. 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.080 It was a lot of fun. Um. I was very 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.719 careless with money. You know. I bought a very expensive watch, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.880 I bought a new car. I gave a lot of 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:01.400 I gave I gave a lot of money away. I 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.159 mean at Christmas last year, I gave my brother and 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:08.039 sister each like like five thousand pound each. UM, I 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.160 bought my dad a brightly. I paid for the hospital 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.200 where my mom worked before she passed. UM they needed 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.080 six thousand pounds for regard and so I paid for that. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.240 So I kind of paid for all this stuff, just 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.720 being frivolous, But I was paying for it out on 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.880 my savings, not out of my crypto, so that was 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.480 kind of stupid. But no, look, it was just it 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.800 was It's been so much fun. It's been a hell 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.720 of a ride. And no, there was no real stress 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.160 on the way up, and strangely enough, it hasn't been 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.320 stressful on the way down either. I definitely want to 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.240 ask you more about that, but before we do, I 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:40.800 just want to sort of back up a little bit. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.720 What was the ball case for you when it came 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.320 to bitcoin, you know a little over a year ago, Like, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.600 what was it that you thought was happening here and 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.440 what made you want to stay in bitcoin and I 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.720 guess some other crypto coins versus going into more traditional 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.680 and sms. It was just innovation, right, There was this 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.960 whole wave of innovation around cryptocurrencies and crypto networks, and 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.320 it just felt like the start of something new, a 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.240 bit like. You know, I was part of the dot 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.240 com era when it first started. I worked at a 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.600 dot com and I spent twenty years in digital advertising, 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.400 so I experienced that and it kind of had similar feelings, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.080 not exactly the same, but you know, I don't ever 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.800 believe the crypto networks would ever be as big as 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.320 the Internet itself, but it did feel like a new 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.920 way of you know, transacting, sending money, building things. So 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.800 at the time I kind of brought into all of it. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.320 You know, my opinion over time has changed, but I 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.040 did buy into all of it because I just thought 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.880 this was something new, something cool. But I didn't invest 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:47.599 the money at the time thinking I was going to 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.360 make a lot of money, right, you know, when I 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.520 first invested, I just I just thought, yeah, there's an 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.160 opportunity to make something here. But in no way did 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.880 I think, um, what was going to happen happened. I 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.960 think my prediction at the start out of two thousand 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.880 and seventeen was that wouldn't it be great if by 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.800 the end of the bit coined hit two thousand dollars 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.400 and ended up hit in twenty thou dollars. So you know, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.880 it was just it was a very strange ride, um 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.200 but nothing played out exactly as I thought it would. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.640 One of the things you said in your tweet storm 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.640 that I think was interesting, which is that on the 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.520 way up, well, you know, for people who sort of 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.920 maybe don't remember their history, it's um as Bitcoin sort 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.400 of peaked in December and it was still pretty high 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:35.440 in January. We saw an even crazier explosion in a 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.120 lot of alt coins, other cryptocurrencies, many of them of 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.640 extremely dubious quality, half big projects. I think things they 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.079 were sort of like mediocre to anyone who looked at them, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.080 But that's something you see in bubbles in which the 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:53.160 real trash really surges at the end. I think you 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.800 said in your tweet storm that on the way up 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:01.480 you started buying other non bitcoin in assets more and more. 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.800 Tell us about the decision to do that. Well, at first, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.840 there was no strategy around it. I was just learning 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.400 about things, reading about things, and just wanting to try 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.440 it out. So I bought Dash because that seemed like 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.880 a different kind of bitcoin. It seemed kind of interesting. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.800 I bought Ethereum because it was like this world computer 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.600 that sounded interesting. I bought Minero because it was a 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.760 private coin. I bought ripple Coin because it was a 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.400 banking coin. I just kind of bought everything, just went 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.840 for it. And then over time I started to consider 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.080 maybe more kind of fundamental analysis, so I started looking 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.600 at things to see if they kind of had value 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.320 or they had a purpose, and then kind of refined 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.280 my strategy. But still up until the under two thousand 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:44.000 and seventeen, I believed in, you know, most of these 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:48.000 networks and most of these coins as being an opportunity. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.880 I had an expectation lots would fail, but it was 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.040 kind of like the dot com era. You know, web 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.559 Van sounded great at the time, Boo dot Com sounded 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.200 great at the time. They just weren't ready or just 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.360 weren't built in the right way. And I just thought, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.560 you know, spread my investments, and the things that always 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.720 successful I'll make money from, and the things that fail 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.400 I won't. But with a diverse portfolio, yeah I should 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.040 be okay. It's only since, like I think a bear 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.080 market is very good forget you, to get you to 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.160 be a bit more rational and look at things and 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.480 a bit more detail. Now I've kind of like my 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:22.600 opinions changed a lot. So with that background in mind, 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.560 when you saw all these coins plus bitcoin sort of 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.520 going up together, did you at any point kind of 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.240 think this is weird or this is too easy? Yeah, definitely, 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:37.760 I definitely thought this was too easy. But you know, 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:39.839 I just rode it. I just you just went with it. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.360 It was. It was continual the whole year. There were 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.560 three or four crashes. I remember once I was flying 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.120 out to l A and I'd gone into the airport 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.840 lounge and I'd always wanted to have a brightly watch, right, 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.520 That's something I could never normally afford, and I just 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.199 bought it and I got on the plane, and when 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.080 I got off the plane, the market dropped thirty. I 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.360 was like, whoa, Okay, that was a lesson and exactly 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.679 the same. And when I bought the car, I bought Mercedes, right, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.520 And when I was in the garage picking up the keys, 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.920 the market dropped again. But each thirty drop, the market 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:13.720 always rebounded. So when it dropped again January this year, 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:19.319 I expected it to come back. You mean January. Yeah, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.840 I want to hear more of what you bought things 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:27.040 that you bought just like everything. Um, you know, I 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.640 took my kids on loads of amazing holidays to America, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.720 to Florida. As I said, I gave a lot of 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.800 money to my family. I bought my dad a watch, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.000 I bought a car. UM. I flew first class for 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.000 the first time, something I've never done. It's nothing I 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.839 could ever normally afford. And I was flying back from 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.080 l a and I had a date book with a 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.800 girl in London, and I was on a flight which 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:51.520 meant I would be landing in the afternoon. I knew 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.600 i'd be tired. I thought, you know what, I'm a millionaire. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.600 I'm just going to get myself a first class flight, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.320 which I did as well. Uh like, not in a um, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.160 not in an idiotic, idiotic way. It's just the way 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.360 I always think about money is is you know, use 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.000 it and enjoy it. Um you might not have it tomorrow. 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.960 So funny enough, it's turned out, and I'm glad. I 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:12.640 did you know, I got to experience a bunch of 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.040 things and do a bunch of things I could never 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.319 normally do. Saying for my kids, my kids got to 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.319 experience and do a lot of things they could normally do. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.960 And yeah, it's been it's just been a lot of fun. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.000 Did you in your mind on the way up have 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.200 some number for your portfolio? They got Okay, if it 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.559 hits there's I'm going to sell have or if it 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.959 said hits this, I'm gonna sell everything, like because at 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.840 some point you had to maybe worry I think that 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.920 it was all going to crash. So did you have 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.480 some sort of exit strategy that you thought or some 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.560 sort of when to get out? Well, I used to 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.840 take out um so every time my portfolio kind of 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:08.679 as I at the end of the month, I used 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.680 to take the profit out. But as I got towards 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:13.160 the end of the year, I was thinking, gosh, if 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.160 this carries on for another six months. I've always had 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.360 this goal in life. I wanted to buy my local 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.320 football club. I know it sounds stupid, but I live 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.880 in a very small town called Bedford, right, It's just 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.320 a nothing town. Our football club is in the lowest 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.400 of the low divisions, are not in the Football League. 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.760 About a hundred people go and watch him each week. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.680 So I had this kind of price in my head. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.760 If I could make five million, I could buy the club, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.360 and like I was working through it with one of 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.680 my friends and we figured out, you know, that would 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.320 be enough money to buy the club and get him 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:41.960 in the football league. So I was like, right, if 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.840 I can hit that by middle of two thousand and eighteen, 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.000 I'll cash out the majority of it, go and buy 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.480 the football club. I know it sounds so stupid our reflection, 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.680 No it doesn't. I know someone else who has a 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.160 dream to own a small town football club and it 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.000 is possible in the UK look at Swansea. Right. Anyway, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.720 when did it all start going wrong? Because it's great 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.480 to listen to the list of stuff that you bought, 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.320 but in the end the portfolio kind of evaporated in value. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.560 So it's funny. I don't see is it going wrong. 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.520 I see it as losing portfolio. But I actually, on reflection, 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.600 I think two thousand and eighteen has been a great 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:27.440 year for for the crypto category personally myself. Of you know, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.520 it's a real lesson I've never had it in life. 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.080 Like we have securities laws which stop people investing who 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.480 aren't the credited investors, but if you don't invest, you 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.680 won't learn. So two thousand and eighteen has been a 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.040 huge lesson in money for me, you know, conserving capital 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.160 and protecting capital. Um. You know, so from about January 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.480 I started it started happening, but I thought it would 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.560 be another a bounce, you know, I thought it would 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.120 drop and bounce back. I would say. From about March, 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.840 I was thinking, Okay, this isn't coming back. And my 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.800 biggest mistake is I invested around four thousand dollars into 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.400 mining because you know, I wanted to have another way 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.920 of growing my capital, so I bought all these different 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.120 A six and that's where I've lost the majority of 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.000 my money because the equipment isn't worth hardly anything now, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:18.640 and I was locked into power contracts which were costing 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.720 more than the bitcoin I was mining. So across the year, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.680 you know, it's it's just been something that has happened 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.680 over the whole year. But again, I don't reflect on 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.840 it in any kind of negativity. I'm not bothered by it. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.520 I'm actually I'm still very positive about bitcoin in the future, 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.880 and I'm I'm glad it's all happened in a kind 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.960 of weird way. I mean, obviously I wish I had 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.920 a cashed out, but I haven't. And you know, we 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.320 always make the best decisions we think are at the time. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.600 And every time I've considered cashing out and I haven't, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.920 that I believe was the right decision. So I don't 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.360 have any regrets when you think about, say, going back 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.000 in March and realizing that something was different, that this 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.440 bounce was not going to be like one of the plunges, 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.440 or that this dropt was not going to be like 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.159 one of the inges. In twenty seventeen, was it harder 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.679 to sell or do you think it was it was 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:11.399 harder to make wise trading decisions because you had hit 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.719 a high water mark of one point two million, and 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.480 you felt like that is sort of like where you 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.440 should get back to. Because I do think this is 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:23.080 a phenomenon of all traders, and not just even in bubbles, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.480 where somehow like their portfolio hits a certain level and 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.080 then psychologically they sort of find it very hard to 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.960 sell anything below that level, and even if all the 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.000 other data points and charts and their brains sort of 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.240 tell them that they should still cash out and take profits. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.800 I think one of the difficulties was selling is there 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:46.800 was so much good news and so many could think 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.400 things happening in two thousand and eighteen, there was especially 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.960 for bitcoin, there was you know, real Wall Street adoption 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.679 in terms of um, you know, futures, another derivative products. 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.160 You know, there was the news of potentially ts. There 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.199 was so much good news happening that I was I 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.120 kept every time we kind of hit another low price, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:08.719 I thinking, well, it's not going to go lower than that. 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:10.600 I think that was my problem. It wasn't that I 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.520 was looking to get back higher. I just never thought 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.080 it would go lower. And each time it went lower, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.760 I was like, Okay, maybe that's the base. But you know, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.199 I'm not a trader. I've got no experience with this. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.639 I think pretty pretty experienced traders would have recognized this pattern, right. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:25.919 And you know what, in a year, two years, if 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.040 the same happens, I'll probably be better prepared than I 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.400 was this time. I have a really boring question, but 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.040 I think in your tweet storm, I seem to remember 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.520 you mentioned something about, you know, after taxes, you didn't 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:42.879 have much left. How did you actually calculate taxes on 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.080 your crypto investments? So I have an accountant for all 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.200 of this. UM, what I did at the start is 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.080 I registered everything I do as businesses, and I've used 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:53.920 the same account of for years, so that's something that's 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.320 completely handled by them. I wouldn't even want to get 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.639 into the right in my own tax return for crypto 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.520 because it's hugely complex. So yeah, I just used an 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.080 account of for that. So talk about where you are today. 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.800 You started, I think you said, with thirty two thousand dollars, 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.760 wrote up to one point two million dollars. You spend 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.840 four hundred thousand dollars on mining equipment, crypto mining equipment 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.040 that's now worthless as you put it. You got into 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.840 all these long term contracts, you paid taxes. Are you 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.480 just back to square one? No, I'm not. You know, 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.280 some people wrote to me thinking I was completely wrecked 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.480 and broken. So I'm not broken. I have a I 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.520 wouldn't tell you the amounts now, but I have a small, 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.760 very small amount of bitcoin which I've got left over. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:38.439 So what I ended up doing I just sold all 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.240 my old coins cashed out a certain amount just to 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:43.480 give me a bit of breathing room. Because I'm a 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.840 single father with two children, so I have to be responsible. 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:48.800 So I cashed out a certain amount to give myself 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.960 a few months breathing room and retained a small amount 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.480 of bitcoin, and I've got some minera as well, but 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.119 the mining operation is still there. I'm still paying those bills, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.480 which is frustrating. But at the same time, I guess 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:03.320 one of the other reasons I'm not too worried is 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.840 my podcast has been really successful. I think last month 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.280 I went over a hundred thousand downloads. For the first 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:14.600 month's profitable. You know, I'm selling adverts each month. I 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.480 think revenues for this month is around ten dollars, so 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:19.879 you know, I've got a sustainable business. Let's come out 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.119 of the back of this. So I think that's probably 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:23.000 one of the other reasons I'm not too worried. It's 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.119 not been hugely upsetting. A question I meant to ask earlier. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.120 So you had all this bitcoin in your portfolio, it's surged, 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.280 and then the other things you did were sort of 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.400 de facto doubling and tripling down on bitcoin, just through 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.879 different ways. So obviously you mentioned the huge outlay for 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.119 the mining and the power contract, and you've started this 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:52.159 successful podcast about bitcoin. Did it ever seem concerning to 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.240