WEBVTT - Sessions Pledges Crackdown on Violent Crime (Audio) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 In his first public speech since he was sworn in 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.240 as the nation's top law enforcement officer, Attorney General Jeff 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:11.000 Sessions painted a bleak picture of violence in America. Certain 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:15.960 major cities are seeing dramatic, I mean really dramatic increases 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:21.480 in murder rates Chicago, Baltimore, your New Orleans, uh, and 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.800 so lots of this out there that's driving a sense 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:30.680 that we're in danger. Though crime rates remained near historic 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.519 lows across much of the country, Sessions said they were 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.120 tacking up. He told the National Association of Attorneys General 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.519 that one of his top priorities will be to reverse 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.920 the rise in violent crimes, and that law enforcement needs 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.480 to crack down on drug use, including marijuana. He also 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.760 said the Justice Department would pull back on civil rights 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.920 investigations of police departments that were a staple of the 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.320 Obama administration. My guests are Douglas Burman, Professor at Ohio 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.360 State University Moritz College of Law, and Eugene O'Donnell, professor 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:05.440 at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Eugene, let's start 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:10.360 with Session statements that were in danger of rising violence. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.880 Do the statistics support him? Well, the statistics don't. But 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.200 there's reason to believe that disorder is on the rise, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.520 and a sense of public our needs is on the rise, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.400 and there is gun violence. And the other thing the 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.080 Astorney General said, which is crystal clear, is the police 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.520 officers in this environment are afraid to initiate proactive activity 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.440 and are afraid indeed to solve crimes. So you have 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.279 cities like Chicago where people are shooting and shooting again 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.760 the scores of it's not hundreds of people unapprehended for 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.280 murdering or shooting people, and a a environment in which 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.160 an elite has captured This conversation pushed out people on 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:57.120 the ground there wisdom, their sense of uh concern living 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.000 in the in the neighborhoods has been obscured by people who, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.280 frankly by their own public safety. At this point, we 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.880 have an apart side system in which the four are 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.600 left of their own devices, the well to do you'll 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:13.440 secure themselves At this point, do you agree, Judd, uh? 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.880 Well at nuanced in somewhat different ways. Actually had to 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.240 start with the highlighting that the statistics do show in 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.440 particular cities that we've had a pretty significant uptick in 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.640 violent crime. Uh. But that comes on the heels of 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:34.600 in two thousand and fourteen record low levels across the board, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.560 and so that contextualizes a little bit that that uh 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.040 A not that significant uptick, looks like a high percentage, 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.720 but it is something worthy to be concerned about. At 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.279 the same time, UH, there are some cities New York, Philadelphia, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.079 a few others where a violent crime continues to decline 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.480 to record low numbers. And so one of the things 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.200 that I'm hopeful that the Attorney General is is going 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.080 to try to do, and there's a new task force 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.200 UH that's specifically designed to take a look at this 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.600 is try to figure out, Okay, what is working in 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.160 certain cities where there's the same sets of pressures, there's 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.040 the same set of concerns about proactive policing, and yet 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.080 crime keeps going down, whereas in other cities it seems 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:22.320 as though those sets of concerns are UH perhaps leading 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.639 the police to pull back, perhaps contributing UH to violent 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.800 crime and particularly low clearance rates that make it that 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.360 much harder UH not only to police in area, but 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.640 then once a crime has occurred, to make sure that 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:40.680 the offender UH justifiably pays the punishment price. Eugene he 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.880 announced the creation as Doug Mansion of a multi agency 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.920 task force. And often task forces end up just making 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:54.480 reports that don't go anywhere. What will this task force do? Well? 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:59.480 I hope that the national police in crisis, somebody wants 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.320 to do that job. Those are on the street or 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.960 trying to get off. You can't recruit people at this point. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.320 You're throwing cameras into the mix, which you're going to 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.520 make the cops extremely hesitant to do anything. And uh, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.480 the pressor mentioned Philadelphia. When I'm sitting today, a recent 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.560 poem Philadelphia showed public safety is a concern, has catapulted 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.480 to the top of people's concerns. Why is that? I 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.840 think people over the neighborhoods know the cops are invisible 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.760 and they're handcuffed and they're paralyzed. By the way you 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.440 see this on the roadways. Also, you just don't see 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.040 the cops out there anymore. So we need equilibrium, we 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.520 need this echo. We need to stop this echo chamber 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.160 of a right left conversation. We have to look at 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.479 what works. But let's be very blunt here. The police 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:49.080 has had un They've been kicked to the mercilessly in 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.640 the last two years, the professionists is hurting badly. Um, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.599 rather than the Justice Department coming in, you know, even 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:01.440 industry of lawyers, law professors, second guessers who don't do 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.400 anything except answering the police. We need assistance to the 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.000 police first, how we get them, second, how we educate them, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.120 and then how we empower them through the work that 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.039 we need to do. Not the trip wire them and 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.080 constutely threatened them, which has been the environment over the 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.400 last two years. Again, every law school in America as 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.560 one or two professors that spent all their time figuring 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.360 out how not to protect the country. We haven't spent 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.680 more time, then, well that's what they do. Well, it's 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.240 not about terrorism, republic safety. We need affirmative strategies for 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.919 protecting peas dou I'd like to give you a chance 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:40.120 to respond to Eugene's comments about police officers pulling back 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:45.479 on enforcement because of anxieties basically about videos and investigations 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.760 and the public's fears. Yeah, and I I certainly think 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:54.239 there is ample anecdotal evidence and even you know, some 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.720 more systematic evidence that there is a kind of police 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.520 pullback in some respects and in some cities that different 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.960 communities are experiencing that in different kinds of ways. And 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.240 that's itself where I think Eugene's point is is a 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.320 sensible one that a new Attorney General is going to 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.960 look at that and consider that and try to create 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.560 a kind of balance in our conversations about policing and 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.159 police activities. Uh though, Uh, there are still plenty of 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.760 communities that feel over police or at least, you know, 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:32.000 have a kind of adversary relationship with police encounters. That is, 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.359 it'sself part of a broader problem that hopefully the Attorney 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.839 General will not only be looking into, but be looking 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:42.000 how to build healthier relationships between communities and police in 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.880 order to ensure that the sets of problems oscillating one 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.520 way or the other are not pervasive. And that's again 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.800 where I'm hopeful that there are positive stories out there 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.240 in different communities, positive stories in terms of continued reducing 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.640 crime rates and good relationships between police and citizens that 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.760 the any General task force will try to build upon, uh, 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.719 to ensure those relationships are moving forward in a positive 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.760 way in every community. Eugene jeff Session says he's going 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:17.440 to back away from the civil rights investigations of police departments. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:23.160 Aren't those investigations intended to help the police work with 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:28.000 the community. Is there a problem with those investigations? I 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:29.840 think there is, I think and some of these departments 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.760 are off the rails and need to be ranked in. 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.720 But what we really need again as as as a 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:36.760 blueprint for how do you get people that are the 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.560 best mabrieties to go into police work and having you 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.160 forster an environment where they're supporting when they're acting honorably. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.760 And we have this really devastating uh dialogue that has 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.640 basically created in the minds of some people, again let 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.800 by an elite, that there's nothing worse in America than policing, 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.960 and that the criminal justice system is so totally flawed 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.320 that it's better to let people pick up guns and 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:03.040 shoot than to invoke the system. It's a fragile system, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.400 it's a creey system. But the notion that everybody being 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.120 locked up is falsely accused, uh, you know, is a 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.640 commonplace uh mindset. And we talk about what's not working. 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.760 We've got cities all over the place that solved less 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.280 than half of the shootings and homicides, meaning tons of 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.240 people shoot and get away. Chicago can't solve eight percent 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.440 of people should get away. No question about the fact 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.840 that part of that is that it is the police 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.040 are risk averse. They don't want to be an officer 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.040 involved shooting. They don't want to go out at four 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.160 o'clock in the morning and take to somebody from his 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.160 bed who's just shot somebody. And this is having a 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.720 terrible impact down on the ground where people live, and 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.680 they've been silenced. People have been silenced. This elite that 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.360 has hijacked this conversation has created this notion that there's 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.360 nothing worse than policing and the justice system and it's 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.320 just falls and we need a correction. We don't need 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.720 an ideological correction. We don't need a right wing uh 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.800 you know, rerunning of a law and order campaign, but 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.319 we don't sensible, smart policing. And some people have to 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.520 be locked up. Let's be very clear. I don't know who. 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.440 I don't know that anyone disagrees with you that that 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.640 some people have to be locked up who are tried 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:22.920 and convicted of crimes. Uh, Doug, do you see Jeff 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:28.720 Sessions with his emphasis on on crime and on you know, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.480 cutting back on crime and violence. Do you see this 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.600 as a hundred and eighty degree turn from the Justice 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:39.680 Department over the last eight years. I'm not sure return, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.480 but it certainly is a significant turn, especially, you know, 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.120 remembering a few years ago that Attorney General Holder, you know, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.720 talked about America locking up too many people for too long, 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.439 for no good law enforcement reasons. That was his language. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.520 That was sort of piggybacking off of dis concern and 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:02.160 concern that is statistically appropriate that America's still engaged in 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.720 what's often called mass incarceration. We have the world's largest 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.600 prison population, and even though there have been some slight declines, UH, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.840 there still are an extraordinary number of Americans locked behind bars, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:18.400 and that UH is something that the Holder and then 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.160 Lynch Department of Justice was eager to be supportive of 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:26.920 modest reforms to whereas I do think Attorney General Sessions 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.040 UH is of the mind and it seems like Eugene 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.000 kind of reflects this as well, that the problem isn't 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.080 over incarceration, that the problem still maybe under incarceration, that 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.640 there are still lots of bad people out there, and 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.080 that they need to be put behind bars for public safety. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:44.760 And I think that view not only is one that 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.240 is you know, more widely UH shared than maybe UH 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.600 folks up here in the Ivory Tower realized. But it 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.640 also is a function. I think of a view that 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.680 all of the declines in crime over the last twenty 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.320 years or so have been a product of a ramp 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.080 up in incarceration. And though there's mixed evidence about the 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:10.160 relationship between increased incarceration UH and reductions in crime, I 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.360 think Attorney General Sessions UH kind of stands as an 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.640 individual who largely is inclined to embrace them and who 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.000 largely will say when we're seeing an upticking crime, the 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.840 way to respond is to ramp back up enforcement mechanisms 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.920 and the sets of policies and attitudes that largely drove 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.880 the run up and incarceration rates over the last thirty years. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.440 In the first instance, we set thirty seconds. I'm going 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.240 to ask you quickly, Eugene, if you if you have 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:44.160 an answer for this. Is his idea about enforcing the 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:49.319 marijuana laws realistic in light of the fact that Trump 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.920 campaigned on leaving the issue up to the states, and 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.000 more than half of the states have legalized medical uses 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.240 of marijuana. Yeah, I think we should stop model in 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.520 a lot of people locked up who shouldn't be, who 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.160 are non violent, non attrect to others. But the con 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.320 under me there are a lot of people who are 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.800 not locked up. Should you. That's the problem. We've got 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.880 violent people running amok, and you've got people don't after 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.360 a blood press go at a low level non violent people. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.199 So an equilibrium balance and what really works in the neighborhoods, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.120 that's what we need to be focused on. Thank you 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.000 both for being on Bloomberg Law. That's you, gen o'donald, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.760 Professor at John j College of Criminal Justice and Douglas Berman, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.760 Professor at Ohio State University Risk College of Law.