1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: In his first public speech since he was sworn in 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: as the nation's top law enforcement officer, Attorney General Jeff 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Sessions painted a bleak picture of violence in America. Certain 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: major cities are seeing dramatic, I mean really dramatic increases 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: in murder rates Chicago, Baltimore, your New Orleans, uh, and 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: so lots of this out there that's driving a sense 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: that we're in danger. Though crime rates remained near historic 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: lows across much of the country, Sessions said they were 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: tacking up. He told the National Association of Attorneys General 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: that one of his top priorities will be to reverse 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: the rise in violent crimes, and that law enforcement needs 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: to crack down on drug use, including marijuana. He also 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: said the Justice Department would pull back on civil rights 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: investigations of police departments that were a staple of the 15 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: Obama administration. My guests are Douglas Burman, Professor at Ohio 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: State University Moritz College of Law, and Eugene O'Donnell, professor 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Eugene, let's start 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: with Session statements that were in danger of rising violence. 19 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: Do the statistics support him? Well, the statistics don't. But 20 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: there's reason to believe that disorder is on the rise, 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: and a sense of public our needs is on the rise, 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: and there is gun violence. And the other thing the 23 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: Astorney General said, which is crystal clear, is the police 24 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: officers in this environment are afraid to initiate proactive activity 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: and are afraid indeed to solve crimes. So you have 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,279 Speaker 1: cities like Chicago where people are shooting and shooting again 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: the scores of it's not hundreds of people unapprehended for 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: murdering or shooting people, and a a environment in which 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: an elite has captured This conversation pushed out people on 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: the ground there wisdom, their sense of uh concern living 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: in the in the neighborhoods has been obscured by people who, 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: frankly by their own public safety. At this point, we 33 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: have an apart side system in which the four are 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: left of their own devices, the well to do you'll 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: secure themselves At this point, do you agree, Judd, uh? 36 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Well at nuanced in somewhat different ways. Actually had to 37 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: start with the highlighting that the statistics do show in 38 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: particular cities that we've had a pretty significant uptick in 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: violent crime. Uh. But that comes on the heels of 40 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen record low levels across the board, 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: and so that contextualizes a little bit that that uh 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: A not that significant uptick, looks like a high percentage, 43 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: but it is something worthy to be concerned about. At 44 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,279 Speaker 1: the same time, UH, there are some cities New York, Philadelphia, 45 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: a few others where a violent crime continues to decline 46 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: to record low numbers. And so one of the things 47 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: that I'm hopeful that the Attorney General is is going 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: to try to do, and there's a new task force 49 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: UH that's specifically designed to take a look at this 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: is try to figure out, Okay, what is working in 51 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: certain cities where there's the same sets of pressures, there's 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: the same set of concerns about proactive policing, and yet 53 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: crime keeps going down, whereas in other cities it seems 54 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: as though those sets of concerns are UH perhaps leading 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: the police to pull back, perhaps contributing UH to violent 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: crime and particularly low clearance rates that make it that 57 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: much harder UH not only to police in area, but 58 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: then once a crime has occurred, to make sure that 59 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: the offender UH justifiably pays the punishment price. Eugene he 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: announced the creation as Doug Mansion of a multi agency 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: task force. And often task forces end up just making 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: reports that don't go anywhere. What will this task force do? Well? 63 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: I hope that the national police in crisis, somebody wants 64 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: to do that job. Those are on the street or 65 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: trying to get off. You can't recruit people at this point. 66 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: You're throwing cameras into the mix, which you're going to 67 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: make the cops extremely hesitant to do anything. And uh, 68 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: the pressor mentioned Philadelphia. When I'm sitting today, a recent 69 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: poem Philadelphia showed public safety is a concern, has catapulted 70 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: to the top of people's concerns. Why is that? I 71 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: think people over the neighborhoods know the cops are invisible 72 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: and they're handcuffed and they're paralyzed. By the way you 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: see this on the roadways. Also, you just don't see 74 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: the cops out there anymore. So we need equilibrium, we 75 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: need this echo. We need to stop this echo chamber 76 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: of a right left conversation. We have to look at 77 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: what works. But let's be very blunt here. The police 78 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: has had un They've been kicked to the mercilessly in 79 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: the last two years, the professionists is hurting badly. Um, 80 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: rather than the Justice Department coming in, you know, even 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: industry of lawyers, law professors, second guessers who don't do 82 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: anything except answering the police. We need assistance to the 83 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: police first, how we get them, second, how we educate them, 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: and then how we empower them through the work that 85 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: we need to do. Not the trip wire them and 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: constutely threatened them, which has been the environment over the 87 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: last two years. Again, every law school in America as 88 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: one or two professors that spent all their time figuring 89 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: out how not to protect the country. We haven't spent 90 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: more time, then, well that's what they do. Well, it's 91 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: not about terrorism, republic safety. We need affirmative strategies for 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: protecting peas dou I'd like to give you a chance 93 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: to respond to Eugene's comments about police officers pulling back 94 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: on enforcement because of anxieties basically about videos and investigations 95 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: and the public's fears. Yeah, and I I certainly think 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: there is ample anecdotal evidence and even you know, some 97 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: more systematic evidence that there is a kind of police 98 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: pullback in some respects and in some cities that different 99 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: communities are experiencing that in different kinds of ways. And 100 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: that's itself where I think Eugene's point is is a 101 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: sensible one that a new Attorney General is going to 102 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: look at that and consider that and try to create 103 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: a kind of balance in our conversations about policing and 104 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: police activities. Uh though, Uh, there are still plenty of 105 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: communities that feel over police or at least, you know, 106 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: have a kind of adversary relationship with police encounters. That is, 107 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: it'sself part of a broader problem that hopefully the Attorney 108 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: General will not only be looking into, but be looking 109 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: how to build healthier relationships between communities and police in 110 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: order to ensure that the sets of problems oscillating one 111 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: way or the other are not pervasive. And that's again 112 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: where I'm hopeful that there are positive stories out there 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: in different communities, positive stories in terms of continued reducing 114 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: crime rates and good relationships between police and citizens that 115 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: the any General task force will try to build upon, uh, 116 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: to ensure those relationships are moving forward in a positive 117 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: way in every community. Eugene jeff Session says he's going 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: to back away from the civil rights investigations of police departments. 119 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: Aren't those investigations intended to help the police work with 120 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: the community. Is there a problem with those investigations? I 121 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: think there is, I think and some of these departments 122 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: are off the rails and need to be ranked in. 123 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: But what we really need again as as as a 124 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: blueprint for how do you get people that are the 125 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: best mabrieties to go into police work and having you 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: forster an environment where they're supporting when they're acting honorably. 127 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: And we have this really devastating uh dialogue that has 128 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: basically created in the minds of some people, again let 129 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: by an elite, that there's nothing worse in America than policing, 130 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: and that the criminal justice system is so totally flawed 131 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: that it's better to let people pick up guns and 132 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: shoot than to invoke the system. It's a fragile system, 133 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: it's a creey system. But the notion that everybody being 134 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: locked up is falsely accused, uh, you know, is a 135 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: commonplace uh mindset. And we talk about what's not working. 136 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: We've got cities all over the place that solved less 137 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: than half of the shootings and homicides, meaning tons of 138 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: people shoot and get away. Chicago can't solve eight percent 139 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: of people should get away. No question about the fact 140 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: that part of that is that it is the police 141 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: are risk averse. They don't want to be an officer 142 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: involved shooting. They don't want to go out at four 143 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning and take to somebody from his 144 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: bed who's just shot somebody. And this is having a 145 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: terrible impact down on the ground where people live, and 146 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: they've been silenced. People have been silenced. This elite that 147 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: has hijacked this conversation has created this notion that there's 148 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: nothing worse than policing and the justice system and it's 149 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: just falls and we need a correction. We don't need 150 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: an ideological correction. We don't need a right wing uh 151 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, rerunning of a law and order campaign, but 152 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: we don't sensible, smart policing. And some people have to 153 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: be locked up. Let's be very clear. I don't know who. 154 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone disagrees with you that that 155 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: some people have to be locked up who are tried 156 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: and convicted of crimes. Uh, Doug, do you see Jeff 157 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Sessions with his emphasis on on crime and on you know, 158 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: cutting back on crime and violence. Do you see this 159 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: as a hundred and eighty degree turn from the Justice 160 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: Department over the last eight years. I'm not sure return, 161 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: but it certainly is a significant turn, especially, you know, 162 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: remembering a few years ago that Attorney General Holder, you know, 163 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: talked about America locking up too many people for too long, 164 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: for no good law enforcement reasons. That was his language. 165 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: That was sort of piggybacking off of dis concern and 166 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: concern that is statistically appropriate that America's still engaged in 167 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: what's often called mass incarceration. We have the world's largest 168 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: prison population, and even though there have been some slight declines, UH, 169 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: there still are an extraordinary number of Americans locked behind bars, 170 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: and that UH is something that the Holder and then 171 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: Lynch Department of Justice was eager to be supportive of 172 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: modest reforms to whereas I do think Attorney General Sessions 173 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: UH is of the mind and it seems like Eugene 174 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of reflects this as well, that the problem isn't 175 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: over incarceration, that the problem still maybe under incarceration, that 176 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: there are still lots of bad people out there, and 177 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: that they need to be put behind bars for public safety. 178 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: And I think that view not only is one that 179 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: is you know, more widely UH shared than maybe UH 180 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: folks up here in the Ivory Tower realized. But it 181 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: also is a function. I think of a view that 182 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: all of the declines in crime over the last twenty 183 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: years or so have been a product of a ramp 184 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: up in incarceration. And though there's mixed evidence about the 185 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: relationship between increased incarceration UH and reductions in crime, I 186 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: think Attorney General Sessions UH kind of stands as an 187 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: individual who largely is inclined to embrace them and who 188 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: largely will say when we're seeing an upticking crime, the 189 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: way to respond is to ramp back up enforcement mechanisms 190 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: and the sets of policies and attitudes that largely drove 191 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the run up and incarceration rates over the last thirty years. 192 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: In the first instance, we set thirty seconds. I'm going 193 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: to ask you quickly, Eugene, if you if you have 194 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: an answer for this. Is his idea about enforcing the 195 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: marijuana laws realistic in light of the fact that Trump 196 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: campaigned on leaving the issue up to the states, and 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: more than half of the states have legalized medical uses 198 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: of marijuana. Yeah, I think we should stop model in 199 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people locked up who shouldn't be, who 200 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: are non violent, non attrect to others. But the con 201 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: under me there are a lot of people who are 202 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: not locked up. Should you. That's the problem. We've got 203 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: violent people running amok, and you've got people don't after 204 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: a blood press go at a low level non violent people. 205 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: So an equilibrium balance and what really works in the neighborhoods, 206 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: that's what we need to be focused on. Thank you 207 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: both for being on Bloomberg Law. That's you, gen o'donald, 208 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: Professor at John j College of Criminal Justice and Douglas Berman, 209 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: Professor at Ohio State University Risk College of Law.