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Speaker 1: Now we're going to talk to Hank Shaw, who his

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Speaker 1: career progression I must admit, is fascinating, and he somehow

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Speaker 1: makes a living doing what it appears he really really

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Speaker 1: loves to do. He's written a series of books, and

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Speaker 1: I guess they must be successful because he keeps doing it.

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Speaker 1: The latest of which I guess is Buck Buck Moose.

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Speaker 1: Recipes and Techniques for Cooking Deer, elk Antelope, Moose, and

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Speaker 1: Other Antlered Things. Hank, how on earth did you end

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Speaker 1: up here?

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Speaker 2: It's been a long and twisted trip. I tell you

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Speaker 2: that it's hard to say. Actually. I mean, I've been

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Speaker 2: a forager, you know, picked wild plants and berries, mushrooms

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Speaker 2: and things. And I've been a fisherman my entire life.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't pick up hunting until I was an adult.

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Speaker 2: So it's been an interesting last sixteen seventeen years that

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Speaker 2: i've been all three.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to work backward. Your most recent publication

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Speaker 1: is Buck Buck Moose, and that's your recipes for cooking things,

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Speaker 1: for cooking obviously antlered things. As you say, and you

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Speaker 1: make the point that venison is probably more than any

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Speaker 1: other meat, the one that people don't cook, right, Why

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Speaker 1: is that I.

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Speaker 2: Think it's a tradition. We would probably be the cookedt way

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Speaker 2: to put it, because there's such a deep family tradition

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Speaker 2: in cooking and eating the deer or the antelope or

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Speaker 2: the elk or whatever it is that you bring home,

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Speaker 2: that there's very strong family recipes like we do it

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Speaker 2: this way, and often they're rooted in you know, the

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Speaker 2: bad old days of the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties and

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Speaker 2: early seventies, when we overcooked everything and we were worried

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Speaker 2: about food safety and all this sort of stuff. I

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Speaker 2: can't tell you how many times I've seen people cook

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Speaker 2: venison backstrap medium well or well done.

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Speaker 1: And it just makes the sad and how should it

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Speaker 1: be cooked?

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Speaker 2: Just like you want your steak? So medium rare is

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Speaker 2: my favorite. Some people like it dead rare, some people

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Speaker 2: like it a solid medium. But as long as it's

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Speaker 2: you know, you want it tink, you want juices running,

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Speaker 2: just like you would a ravi and you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: people don't make that leap sometimes and it's a little bizarre.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're not going to be able to replicate the

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Speaker 1: book in a radio interview, but let's try. You say,

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Speaker 1: my favorite, my favorite part of the book isn't the recipes, however,

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Speaker 1: as much as I love them. It is the opening section,

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Speaker 1: which covers everything you need to know from the moment

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Speaker 1: that deer's on the ground, skinning, gutting, butchering, processing, food safety,

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Speaker 1: differences in species, in species and within species depending on

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Speaker 1: region and diet and age and sex, aging meat. A

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Speaker 1: discussion of why venison fat isn't all bad wines and

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Speaker 1: beers that go well with venison. Now you got my attention.

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Speaker 1: The first one hundred pages are the result of years

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Speaker 1: of research. All right, So we've just made the kill.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've done any hunting in Texas,

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Speaker 1: but we've just made the kill of a of a

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Speaker 1: white tail. Take me from there? What what what do

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Speaker 1: we start doing from there?

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of times in Texas it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: fairly warm, uh, so you're gonna need to get the

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Speaker 2: get the guts out of the animal real quick. Uh.

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Speaker 2: And then for me, unless you've got to walk in

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Speaker 2: cooler nearby, you take it out of the skin, because

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Speaker 2: the biggest thing you need to do is cool that

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Speaker 2: meat as fast as possible. So that's sort of question

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Speaker 2: number one. Some people don't do that, and that's that

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Speaker 2: can lead to you know, that gamy taste that everybody

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Speaker 2: talks about where oh, you know Benson's gaming. It's it's

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Speaker 2: usually the case of poor meatcare and not cooling the

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Speaker 2: meat is kind of your your quickest way to get

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Speaker 2: that to that bad result. But once you have it

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Speaker 2: down and you've skinned it, you've got it in a

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Speaker 2: warm climate, you know, because you know, I've been in

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Speaker 2: I've been south of Houston in Bay City in November,

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Speaker 2: and it's not exactly the coolest, coolest place in the world.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny, Hank, because I was reading about your

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Speaker 1: northern Minnesota exploits and now you're out in Cali, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, does this kind of what it's like

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Speaker 1: to hunt Texas? Go ahead?

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Speaker 2: Yep, it's sweaty, yes. And so I usually had big

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Speaker 2: marine coolers, you know, like you go tunea fishing with,

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Speaker 2: and I'll have them in the truck and you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll put the deer only into pieces that will just

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Speaker 2: barely fit, so you know, you quarter it. One thing

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Speaker 2: you never do is do any kind of fine butchery

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Speaker 2: in the first twenty four hours. And the reason for

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Speaker 2: that is rigor mortis. So if you cut any animal

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Speaker 2: while it's still in vigor, the meat is going to

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Speaker 2: be eternally tough. There's virtually nothing you can do to

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Speaker 2: make it tender again. And it's a very common mistake.

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Speaker 2: Butcher is called this shortening. So imagine like your muscles

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Speaker 2: are a rubber band, and when you're when the animal

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Speaker 2: is still in rigid, the rubber band is very taut.

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Speaker 2: So if you cut the ends of that rubber band,

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Speaker 2: they snap back and they stay that way. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of like when your sister used to used to say that,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you made a face at your sister,

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Speaker 2: she's it's gonna stay that way. It's never gonna go away.

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Speaker 2: And this is the same thing that happens. So you

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Speaker 2: you ever now and again you hear stories of somebody

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Speaker 2: who's had a nice little button buck or a young

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Speaker 2: doe like, oh man, I mean it was still tough.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened with that. That's usually what happened.

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Speaker 1: So you want it quartered and cooled as fast as possible, yep.

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Speaker 2: And then you let it sit. You know, you just oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, you never you never put the meat

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Speaker 2: in direct content. You never put the meat in direct

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Speaker 2: contact with the ice. So I put plastic bags or

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Speaker 2: blap sacks or something like that and keep the drain

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Speaker 2: open on the on the coolers so that they stay

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Speaker 2: cool but they don't get soaked. The worst thing you

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Speaker 2: can do is soaking venison, because what happens it gets

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Speaker 2: pale and washed out and you lose a lot of flavor.

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Speaker 2: But you also invite bacteria in it. So if that

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Speaker 2: water or that ice rises above forty degrees, then you

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Speaker 2: have a bacterial breeze ground and nobody wants that. So

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Speaker 2: that's just sort of a fine point for those people.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, go ahead hang so.

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Speaker 2: You know, once you have it, you know, sitting and

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Speaker 2: it's draining and it's cool and it's nice, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't have to be super super cool because water water

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Speaker 2: is your enemy. Only if water is worn and if

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Speaker 2: you can get again, if you're close to a locker

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Speaker 2: or if you're you know, you can keep things very cool,

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Speaker 2: have at it. But I've had need to hang in

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Speaker 2: under a tree in eighty degree weather with a game

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Speaker 2: bag on it to keep the flies off, and it's

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Speaker 2: been fine. So it needs a little bit more durable

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Speaker 2: than you might think. But you do need to keep

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Speaker 2: it dry if it's not cold.

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Speaker 1: I've heard reference to and ten Nugent made the point,

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Speaker 1: especially with birds, is is kind of dry aging and

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Speaker 1: letting this meat break down. Do you have any rules there?

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Speaker 2: I do, And in fact, it's if you have the

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Speaker 2: ability to dry age. And I'm talking about dry age.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about a minimum of two weeks and three

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Speaker 2: weeks is better if you if you can do that

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Speaker 2: for you know, hind legs and the backstrap. And basically

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Speaker 2: you only want to dry age things that you're going

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Speaker 2: to cook medium rare, So you don't need to dry

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Speaker 2: age the whole carcass if you don't want to. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's it's not gonna hurt it. But you're going to

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Speaker 2: cook the heck out of a neck roast or a

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Speaker 2: shoulder wrist anyway, So it doesn't need to be dry

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Speaker 2: age to make it tender because the long slow cooking

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Speaker 2: does that. So what I'll do is I'll dry age

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Speaker 2: hind legs or whole big link to the backstrap and

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Speaker 2: then do it that way. And I only really do

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Speaker 2: that with wall hangers, you know, like a big buck

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Speaker 2: or a big bull moose or a big you know

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Speaker 2: bull elf. And the reason is because they're so old.

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Speaker 2: If you think about it, any neat that you get

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Speaker 2: in the store is not going to be any older

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Speaker 2: than two years old. Even good, high quality, well aged,

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Speaker 2: that cow is not more than two years old.

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Speaker 1: Hank, I'm going to hold you right there. Hankshaw is

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Speaker 1: our guest. The book is Buck Buck Moose. He also

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Speaker 1: wrote Hunt, Gather, Cook, and Duck Duck Goose. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: more with him coming up the Michael Barry Show. Barry Show.

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Speaker 1: We're talking to Hank Shaw, and he's the author of

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Speaker 1: Buck Buck Moose, among other things, on how to cook

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Speaker 1: the deer you bring home this season, and you were

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Speaker 1: talking about when you go to the butcher shop, and

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Speaker 1: that meat is never more than two years old.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, right, So you know the thing about an

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Speaker 2: aged animal. So everybody likes to say that the young,

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Speaker 2: the young ones are the most tender, and that's true,

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Speaker 2: it's absolutely true. But the best chasing venison, in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: is an old wall hanger that's been properly aged. And

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Speaker 2: here's why. So think about yourself, right, So think about

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Speaker 2: your current self, and I'll think about yourself when you were, say,

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Speaker 2: eighteen years old. Aren't you more interesting now than you

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Speaker 2: were then?

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Speaker 1: Fair enough? Yeah, I hope so.

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Speaker 2: But if you're anything like me, you're a little older,

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Speaker 2: a little tougher, a little more stream. And so the

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Speaker 2: thing is, the deer are the same way. So if

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Speaker 2: you age that and let the enzymes in the meat

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Speaker 2: break that meat down and concentrate it and tenderize it,

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Speaker 2: that means going to be far more interesting. It's far

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Speaker 2: more delicious than say a butt buck. But if you

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Speaker 2: can't dry age it, that big old bull or that

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Speaker 2: big old wallhanger deer is going to be as tough

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Speaker 2: as nails. So it's a catch twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, it doesn't make for good radio when I stop

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Speaker 1: and ponder when someone says something. But I'm stopping him

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Speaker 1: pondering because you're talking about this. All right. So my

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Speaker 1: brother processes his own meat and makes a big mess

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Speaker 1: of his house when he does so. But most people

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Speaker 1: don't want to do that. They're going to take it

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Speaker 1: to someone to process it. Do you have some vice

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Speaker 1: on that?

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Speaker 2: I actually question that. I did a survey and I

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Speaker 2: got a thousand responses, and of the thousand responses, only

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Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifty people who responded said that

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Speaker 2: they that they regularly take all their animals to the process. Really, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and what are found among the detections in the southerners

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Speaker 2: because you guys can kill a lot of deer, and

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Speaker 2: most of the rest of the country you get one

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Speaker 2: or two a year, so they're a little bit more

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Speaker 2: precious to river hunted it.

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Speaker 1: Now, are you going off of your blog, which is

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Speaker 1: what hunter Angler Gardner.

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Speaker 2: Cook it is?

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Speaker 1: And you're going off of that blog because you're talking

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Speaker 1: to insiders. I'm talking about a general population of I mean,

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Speaker 1: I kid with my brother that he does this and

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Speaker 1: how much work goes into it. But I'm having trouble

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Speaker 1: believing that that many people do this themselves. I think

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Speaker 1: there are those like you that do it. I think

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Speaker 1: most people like me or lazy and go here. How

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Speaker 1: much do I owe you I bring.

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Speaker 2: This back there? I betually that's fair and it's also

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Speaker 2: probably regional too. So let's just all right. So if

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Speaker 2: you're at the processor, biggest thing that you do you

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Speaker 2: have to do is you have to make a friend

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Speaker 2: of your processor, because if your butcher is like most butchers,

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Speaker 2: they're running through dozens of deer a day, so that

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Speaker 2: butcher is going to be busy, busy, busy, And I

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Speaker 2: can't tell you how many stories I've heard of, you know, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I didn't get my tender lings back, or I shot

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Speaker 2: a button buck and I got an old ruddy buck

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Speaker 2: back in burger, or they didn't put you know, they

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Speaker 2: didn't grind beef fats in with my burger, or they

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Speaker 2: didn't put b side into my burger. So you really

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Speaker 2: want to be friends with your butcher before hunting season,

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Speaker 2: because if you want that butcher to pay attention to

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Speaker 2: your deer, because that's all you know, you work for it,

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Speaker 2: you deserve the best back.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting. Ted Nugent made the point that

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Speaker 1: he's seen in many cases that a butcher will take

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Speaker 1: you know, five or ten and lay them out and

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Speaker 1: do piece by piece and just kind of hand it,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, organize it over here and making sure,

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Speaker 1: as you said, that you're getting back what you hope for.

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Speaker 1: The frustration is it's like dropping off your car picking

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Speaker 1: it up two days later. I mean, you hope he did.

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Speaker 1: But it's even worse because you don't know what they

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Speaker 1: were doing while while you weren't there. So I guess

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Speaker 1: I guess that's just a trust question more than anything else.

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Speaker 2: It really is, it really is. I mean, especially because

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Speaker 2: let's say you're you're a sticker and you've done everything

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Speaker 2: right with meat care and the guy who brought the

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Speaker 2: deer in in front of you was wild. You think

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Speaker 2: you want your dear back and not that guy's deer

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Speaker 2: right right, And you know, a good processor, if you

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Speaker 2: know the guy, you're friends with them, you'll get your

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Speaker 2: gear back. But if it's just you know, if you

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Speaker 2: don't know them, you're just dropping. You're just another guy

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Speaker 2: dropping that deer off. Who knows what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: And this is what really drives people to butchering their

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Speaker 2: own at home because of horror stories that they've had

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Speaker 2: from from butchers in the past. Now that's don't get

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Speaker 2: me wrong. There's a ton of really great processors. And

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Speaker 2: I know a bunch in the hill country in Texas

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Speaker 2: that are the sausage masters. So there's an advantage of

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Speaker 2: sending it to somebody like that because they've got an

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Speaker 2: extra skill.

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Speaker 1: Do you have one fond of that comes to mind?

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Speaker 2: I don't want to name names because there are all

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Speaker 2: there's like five or six that are really good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Hank Shaw is our guest. The book

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Speaker 1: is buck buck moose. I almost said duck duck goose,

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Speaker 1: which is a different love of your books. All right,

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Speaker 1: so we get it, we process our meat, and we're ready.

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Speaker 1: What do you do with the backstrap?

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Speaker 2: Well, it'ds on aside the animal, So let's just say

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Speaker 2: it's a regular Texas whitetail. So you know, you've got

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Speaker 2: two lengths of backstrap somewhere around two to three feet long.

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Speaker 2: For me, on a regular deer, I'm going to cut

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Speaker 2: that into lengths. You know, they would call it stripline

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Speaker 2: in the in the meat industry, so maybe a foot

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Speaker 2: long or an eight inch twelve inch long, you know,

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Speaker 2: just a length of backstep. I'm not going to cut

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Speaker 2: it in the medallions right away, and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: cook it till it's mediumware that's what I like, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm going to cut it in the dad. And

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of reasons for that one. On a

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Speaker 2: regular deer, you're dealing with a surface to mass ratio

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Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, how you get a seer

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Speaker 2: on the on the deer. Sorry, I'm just random rhyming,

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Speaker 2: but the thing is if you do if you cut

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Speaker 2: sets the Fitch regular Texas white tail and you cut

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Speaker 2: it in the medallions, you're gonna have this huge area

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Speaker 2: that you've seared in a pan on a grill. And

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Speaker 2: unless you cut that medallion two inches thick, which is

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Speaker 2: what I like to do, then you're going to have

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Speaker 2: more area that's going to get hot faster, and it's

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Speaker 2: much more difficult to cook it to medium rare. And

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Speaker 2: you also have you know, you have the bark on

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Speaker 2: the on the outside, which that crispy niceness that's cool,

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Speaker 2: but you don't end you look at that reveal of

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Speaker 2: the red steak in the middle, and unless you're a

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Speaker 2: very good cook, it's a lot easier to get the

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Speaker 2: doneness that you want if you cook a extrap in

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Speaker 2: lengths and then cut it rather than cut it into

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Speaker 2: medallions and then cook it.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's an interesting point. I guess that would apply

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Speaker 1: to all sorts of food, and I guess chefs would

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Speaker 1: know that, but it wasn't something I'd given it any

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Speaker 1: thought to. What do you do with your ground meat?

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously venison chili is very popular here and

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite things, but.

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Speaker 2: What do you do with it? I have a whole

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Speaker 2: section in the book on it, so it's it's I

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Speaker 2: love ground meat, and virtually all of my grind will

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Speaker 2: be with grounded either vacant ends or ground with pork fat.

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Speaker 2: Some people like d sat on my huge fan, and

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Speaker 2: then sometimes I'll leave the sat out entirely because if

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Speaker 2: you make something like a ground meat jerky, or if

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Speaker 2: you want a very lean spaghetti sauce or chili, you

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Speaker 2: don't need the extra fat. But in general I prefer

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Speaker 2: a little bit extra fat, somewhere between ten to sixteen

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Speaker 2: percent if it's burger grind, and then twenty five to

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Speaker 2: thirty percent of the sausage grind.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting. I noticed something. You know, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: your career progression, and you were where did I see it?

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Speaker 1: You were the Saint Paul Pioneer Press political reporter, and

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Speaker 1: they one of them. Yeh, well yes, and then you

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Speaker 1: got in into doing this. Was it your first book?

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Speaker 1: You raised the money on a Kickstarter campaign?

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Speaker 2: No, it's this one, actually, this is the one. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You raised over one hundred thousand dollars to write this

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Speaker 1: book off a Kickstarter campaign. That's very impressive.

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Speaker 2: I was a little shocked. I thought we'd raised fifty

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Speaker 2: or sixty. But yeah, the community, the community that supports

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Speaker 2: Hunter England and the Cook is so strong, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think I fully realized that strength to the kickstreutter

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Speaker 2: and every day I'm humbled by that.

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Speaker 1: And that's your blog, Hunter Angler, Gardner Cook. It talks about.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: In reading about you, there's reference to Minnesota's north Woods

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Speaker 1: and California hunting in California. I am up against a break,

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Speaker 1: so I'm going to ask you to hold with me

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Speaker 1: right there, but I want to talk about the places

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Speaker 1: you've hunted. Coming up next, we're talking to Hank Shaw

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Speaker 1: and the book is called Buck Buck Moose. His blog

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Speaker 1: is Hunter, Angler, Gardner Cook. He's also written about gathering, hunting, cooking,

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Speaker 1: and all of the above. So for those of you ladies,

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Speaker 1: your man brings home a freezer full of deer meat

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to figure out what creative things you

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Speaker 1: can do with it, Hopefully we'll have an answer for you.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next the Michael Berry Show. Hank Shaw is

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Speaker 1: our guest. The book is called Buck Buck Moose. He

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Speaker 1: has made it his passion to talk about what you

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Speaker 1: should do or what you can do with the meat

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Speaker 1: you bring home from this season's hunt. Talking about different

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Speaker 1: things you can do with venison. Uh the ground right now,

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Speaker 1: and I'll let you take it from there.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, depending, I grind lots of different ways,

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Speaker 2: because I will grind meat, you know, no fat for

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Speaker 2: some things and a lot of fat for other things.

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Speaker 2: And so I have that little bags marked, you know,

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Speaker 2: sausage grind or coarse burger or a fine burger and

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And I just look all over

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Speaker 2: the world because everybody has ground meat recipes everything from

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Speaker 2: you know, the Japanese do meatballs, and you know, more

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Speaker 2: or less everybody does meatballs. If you don't really like meatballs,

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Speaker 2: I think there's something wrong with you.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that.

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Speaker 2: I there's got to be some meatball that that that

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Speaker 2: you like. And I grew up with, you know, those

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Speaker 2: big Italian meatballs, and so I make those two and

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Speaker 2: Swedish meatballs from the seventies and all that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and so I do a lot of that. I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of burgers, I do chili, I do ground

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Speaker 2: meat jerky. There's a recipe in the book for kind

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Speaker 2: of an old school ground meat jerkey that's right reminds

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Speaker 2: me of the pemmican that the hold.

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Speaker 1: On I'm gonna ask you to hold on the jerky

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Speaker 1: because I had another question for you on there, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to get away from

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Speaker 1: the meatball. So on the meatball and and different things

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Speaker 1: like that. Is there a particular style of seasoning, as

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Speaker 1: particular type of seasoning or anything else you're putting in

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Speaker 1: that any.

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Speaker 2: Every recipe is different, but the constants are you always

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Speaker 2: have something other than meats in the grind. So you've

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Speaker 2: got your ground meat in fat. Sure, but if you

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Speaker 2: make meatballs just out of that, unless they're very very small,

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Speaker 2: they're going to be strangely tough and almost chalking. It's

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Speaker 2: it's a it's a it's a it's an odd sort

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Speaker 2: of paradox that the best meatballs a lot of have

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Speaker 2: a lot of bread or other kind of grain in them.

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Speaker 2: So you always have either bread that's mashed up or

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Speaker 2: bread crumbs, or cook cook for ice, or something something

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Speaker 2: that will make the meatball a little bit more fluffy.

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Speaker 1: Tell me something you do with your venison ground that

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Speaker 1: people are always surprised with something that other people just

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Speaker 1: hadn't thought about.

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Speaker 2: I do. It's funny. One of the reasons why I

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Speaker 2: love this book is because the entire world eat something

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Speaker 2: like venison, and so I took recipes from all over

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Speaker 2: the world that reflect that. And so I was at

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Speaker 2: the bank the other day and the guy who was

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Speaker 2: talking with the bank is a guy named Omar, and

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Speaker 2: Omar's from Lebanon, and so I was talking that I

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Speaker 2: need to do this transaction for the Cedisin book, and

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Speaker 2: he starts waxing poetic about hunting gazelles in the eastern

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Speaker 2: desert of Lemanon. Wow, Wow, that's crazy, are you? I

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Speaker 2: would never even have thought of that. And so then

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Speaker 2: we got talking about what he does, and as it happens,

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Speaker 2: his favorite thing to do with his ground gazelle is

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Speaker 2: a recipe that's in the book. It's these they call

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Speaker 2: him kept a kebabs, and it's like spiced ground venison

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Speaker 2: that's stuck on a skewer, especially as flat skewers you

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Speaker 2: can buy, and then you grill those and then you

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Speaker 2: just eat them with like a tomato salad, onions or something,

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Speaker 2: or you can put in a pita or whatever. Whatever.

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Speaker 1: Actually had that hank at a at a Lebanese restaurant.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't with venison. It was lam It was

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Speaker 1: either with lamb or beef. I think it was lamb. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it may have been lamb. Yeah, we don't

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Speaker 1: eat enough lamb in our food. But anyway, that's I

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Speaker 1: don't think so either.

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Speaker 2: In fact, if you if you're don't if you're not

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Speaker 2: a hunter, lamb is a pretty close approximation to the

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Speaker 2: size of the cuts of the typical white tail. The

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Speaker 2: flavors different.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, my wife is from India and she's from

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Speaker 1: a southern city. She was She's Christian, but she was

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Speaker 1: raised Hindu and the city is is but the city

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Speaker 1: is mostly Muslim. So a lot of those dishes influenced

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Speaker 1: her cooking growing up. And so that's one of the

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Speaker 1: dishes we eat is actually it's called Beryani and it

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Speaker 1: is a it's a traditional Indian Muslim dish and it

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Speaker 1: has to have lamb.

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Speaker 2: You just you I love Berrianni.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. You can't have it without lamb.

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Speaker 2: So there I've done it with denison.

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Speaker 1: There, well, there you go, there you go, and maybe

431
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: maybe we should try Well, we'll see how the season goes.

432
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: So to jerky you were, I stopped your jerky conversation,

433
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 1: but I know people are going to be interested in that,

434
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: so I wanted to be able to focus on it.

435
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 1: Take it away, all right.

436
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: So everybody loves jerky. I mean it's sort of a

437
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: you know, meat candy basically, because there's there's no one

438
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: who doesn't like some form of jerky. So I do

439
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: three kinds basically. I mean, in terms of the structure,

440
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: the slavings can all be different, but the most common.

441
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 2: What I'll do is I'll take a hind leg roast,

442
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: so some big roast off the hind leg of any animal,

443
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 2: and I will slice it reasonably thin, so I mean

444
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: reasonably maybe a quarter inch and eighth of an inch,

445
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 2: depending on how thick I want it against the grain.

446
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: And what you do is you then brine it in

447
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: a very salty, delicious marinade for several days the refrigerator.

448
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: What's in that marin than, Well, each ferson.

449
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: Is different, but one of the ones that I like

450
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: a lot is I'll use those little can chipotles and

451
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: the dobo and I'll chop them up and I'll mix

452
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 2: that with a little bit of soy sauce and maybe

453
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 2: a little some herbs, and it's just a very The

454
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: thing about jerky is you actually want it to be

455
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 2: more flavorful on the get go, then you think you

456
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: should make it because the drying process mellows a lot

457
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: of flavors. So if you have this marinade with a

458
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: bunch of chipotles and a dobo and a whole bunch

459
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: of other things that you could barely eat when it's

460
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: when it's fresh, it'll actually mellow out really well when

461
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: it's dried out. So that's that's another that sort of prochip.

462
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: On making jerky interesting. You ever ate much tabasco?

463
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: In fact, I've been to Avery Island. I'm a big

464
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: fanished I asked.

465
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: Wow, look at you and the mcwaheneys. Well, the very

466
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: first time I ever had backstrap, and I was probably

467
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: five years old, it was fried at at a deer

468
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 1: camp and the only thing we had there was tabasco,

469
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: and I remember dousing it in tabasco. And anytime I

470
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: think of venison for me, and maybe it's more nostalgia

471
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: than anything else, but tabasco seems to go with venison

472
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: better than any other meat. Have you found that to

473
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: be true?

474
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm kind of a tabasco you know, addict,

475
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: so I put them on almost everything. But you know

476
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: what's great about that, though, is because seabasco is so acidic,

477
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: there's so much vinegar in it. It adds not only heat,

478
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: but it has that brightness to you know, it's effectively

479
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: just lean meat. And so that's but that works as

480
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: like a wild turkey, It works with dozens, it works

481
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: with quail. So I mean, yes, it's a great choice

482
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: to put on venison, but I don't know if that

483
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 2: it's any better than on a wow turkey breast.

484
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, again, I think it's probably more than

485
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: anything else nostalgia. Hank Shaw is our guest. He'll continue

486
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: to be our guest. The book is Buck Buck Moose.

487
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: We'll talk about beers and wines that taste great. I

488
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: don't want to say, paar well with that's a little

489
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: fancier than I would normally say, but that tastes great

490
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: with what we're cooking and waterfowl, duck and geese. And

491
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: he happens to be passionate about eating as well. Coming

492
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: up next The Michael Berry Show. The Michael Berry Show,

493
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: Hankshaw is our guest His latest book is Buck Buck

494
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: Moose Recipes and Techniques for Cooking deer, elk antelope, moose,

495
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: and other antlered things, not just cooking them, but eating them.

496
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: His blog is Hunter, Angler, Gardener Cook. What do you

497
00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: find pears well with venison in terms of beers? In one.

498
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: I think you know before you even get started on this,

499
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: the iron rule of all of this is drink what

500
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: you want. I'm not going to be the guy that says,

501
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: oh my god, you're drinking this with that. He's just

502
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: you know, you're a philistine or something like that. I'm

503
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: not that guy. So, but that said, I included a

504
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: section in the book because there are some beers and

505
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: wines that work really well with different kinds of editions. So,

506
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, like anything fried, like fried things in general,

507
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: life bubbles. So if you let's say you did country

508
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: fried steak and you happen to want a wine today,

509
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: you know you could do worse than drink you know,

510
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: a sparkling rose or a sparkling red, or hell even champagne.

511
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: And in beers, I mean it's the old tradition is

512
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: true in this case. Like if you've got fried, cuntry

513
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: fried steak or something like that you kind of want,

514
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: you know, a shiner or a lone star or something

515
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: that's you don't think too hard, you know. In other

516
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: cases like if you did you know you mentioned that

517
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: your wife is from India. If you did a venison curry,

518
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: well then you know there's a reason why India pal

519
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: l works well with curries. Is that is that it's spicy,

520
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: It's got a lot of a lot of kick to it,

521
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: and slaver that can stand up for something that's very

522
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: strong with a curry. Do you ever drink any Kingfisher Kingfisher? Sure,

523
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: I've drink some lots Kingfisher and that's that. But that

524
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: falls into your sort of lone star and shiner kind

525
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: of category because it's a it's a it's an easy

526
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: drinking logger.

527
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: Yes, I describe it as a side dish, not a

528
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: not a beverage because it feels like I'm I'm eating

529
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: it rather than drinking it. I don't know, it's a

530
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: little heavy. It's I'm an American session beer drinker when

531
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm just drinking at home every day, and so if

532
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm drinking that with Indian food, I'm going to have

533
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: a nap afterwards. Which is in and of itself a

534
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: delightful thing. But anything any other thoughts on what goes

535
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: well with dear meat?

536
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think in terms of a red wine.

537
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: This is your chance to bring up the big bad reds.

538
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: You know, you cabernets cooked, the room blends, the big

539
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: Italian blends, the Rioja Spanish blends. But I'll tell you

540
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: this you speaking of Spanish, I've had some really good

541
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: Texas book country temporneos, yes, that go well with edison.

542
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: All right, I have a recommendation for you I want

543
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: you to try if you have it. It's a vineyard

544
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: outside of Fredericksburg called Becker Yep. And they have a

545
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: cab called Iconoclass. It's a twelve dollars bottle of wine

546
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: that I discovered several years ago when I went to Specs,

547
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: our big you know, spirit wine beer distributor here, retailer here,

548
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: and I said, I want a twelve dollars bottle that

549
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: I can drink every day. And they went and pulled

550
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: the Becker Iconoclast. And I probably have one hundred bottles

551
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: in my house right now because I never want to

552
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: run out. And I have found for the price point

553
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: It is a perfect wine, perfect under bottle.

554
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: You're not a hoarder, are you?

555
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: No, I'm not a hoarder, but you know what I am.

556
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: There are certain things the household shouldn't run out of. Right,

557
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: Toilet paper and wine are two of them. Before I

558
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: let you go, Hank, I would like to talk about another,

559
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: another passion of yours, because it is migratory bird season

560
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: in Texas. Duck, what's that?

561
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: This teal season, isn't it?

562
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: You don't get me lying. I've never hunted till I

563
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: don't know. I know it's white wings.

564
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: You can said, jep with a guy will who will

565
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: put you on until real nice in Bay City?

566
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: Is that right? We need to talk? Can you say

567
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: his name?

568
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: Sure? It's a gouy named Larry Robinson of Coastal Wings.

569
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: Coastal Wings.

570
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's done a big city, all right, Larry.

571
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: Robinson in Bay City. And he's a guide.

572
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,479
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he's a totally a full on outfitter.

573
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: I work with him a lot.

574
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: Okay, when you work with him a lot means you

575
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 1: come down and hunt with him.

576
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: We do cooking schools, so we so we'll take clients

577
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: and we'll hunt. Will hunt either hogs or deer or waterfowl,

578
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: and then I'll do cooking schools. And so they hunt

579
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: and they do a cooking school, and then I cook

580
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: fancy dinner stoom every night.

581
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: You know what we need to do. I own a

582
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: place here called a Redneck Country Club, and we need

583
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: to have you come. We need to have you come

584
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: and do a book lecture because we have something called

585
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 1: the Redneck Readers, which is our book club. We need

586
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: to have you come down do a lecture. We commit

587
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: to buy X number of books, and maybe we tie

588
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: a hunt and an evening with it. That would be

589
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: That would be a blast. I think you would enjoy it.

590
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: I know we would anyway. Doug, Doug Goose migratory birds.

591
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: Quick bit.

592
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: You know what, let me double back to one thing,

593
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: Hank before we get off of it. If you were

594
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: giving people advice that on cooking venison, Let's say Mom's

595
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: at home, he brings home the deer and she's going

596
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: to start cooking it. The thing I took away from

597
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: that is people usually overcook venison, and don't would that

598
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: be the one rule you'd give.

599
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: I think the easiest quickest thing to say is is

600
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: that you people mostly either overcook it or undercook it.

601
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: So any luxury cut, any nice roast, or any backstrap

602
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: of tenderloin cook it medium rare like a steak. Every

603
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: other part of the animal cooks slow and low like brisket.

604
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: You know you're thinking, these are your crock pot, your

605
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: slow cooker areas. And a lot of people will say that,

606
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: oh the shoulder's too tough. We'll just keep cooking it.

607
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: It'll fall apart.

608
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: You're a slow and low guy. My buddy owns a

609
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: place called Good Company Barbecue, which is a real perfer

610
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: barbecue here. That's his advice, slow and low. I noticed

611
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: on one of your goose articles, cook your goose slow

612
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: and low and let the fat render.

613
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: Out, yep, especially the legs and the wings and the

614
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: rest of the goose. You know, the breastbeant you can

615
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: cook hot and fast like a steak. That's true with

616
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: any ducks or geese.

617
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: And on the issue of ducks and geese, give me

618
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: the one minute rundown on if you've you pointed out

619
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: that it people seem to be afraid to cook it,

620
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: or they don't have a lot of experience cooking it.

621
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: The one minute run down on why you shouldn't be

622
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: and what to do.

623
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: I think the one minute one rundown is, don't think

624
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: of ducks and geese as birds. Think of them just

625
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: like venison. So the breast is the backstrap, and everything

626
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: else on the bird is just like the shoulder or

627
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: the neck. Slow and low on legs and wings, and

628
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: hot and fast on the breast meat. And if you

629
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: do that, then you are one hundred times better duck

630
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: cooked than most people.

631
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: Well, and what do you serve with duck? I gotta

632
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: admit I'm not a huge duck fan, but maybe I

633
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: just haven't.

634
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: Had good Well, you need to let me cook you

635
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: for cook you duck.

636
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: I've gone to Chinese restaurants, in high end Chinese restaurants

637
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: on occasion where they serve duck, and I just I

638
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: never I never developed a taste for it. But you

639
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: know what, I'm more than willing to try yours.

640
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: What do I cook with duck? I mostly cook it

641
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: pretty simple. Yeah, the legs I'll often cook will slow

642
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: and low and then shred them, and the tacos like

643
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: marba color, and then the breast meat. You know, it's

644
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: just it's a great easy Tuesday night steak you know,

645
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: you cook a couple of breasts with the skin on,

646
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: and christy skin and medium rare meat and salt, pepper,

647
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: maybe a little lemon. That's all you neat.

648
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: Everybody likes breast hit it absolutely. And that book is

649
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: Duck Duck Goose Recipes and Techniques for Cooking Ducks and Geese.

650
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: The first book we talked about is Buck Buck Moose.

651
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: And then the first one I have more notes on you, Hankshaw.

652
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: The first one was called what Hunter Gather?

653
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: What was it called? Cook?

654
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: Hunt Gather Cook, And the blog is Hunter, Angler, Gardener Cook.

655
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: I somehow suspect I'm going to be seeing you round

656
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: about my parts here sometime soon. We're going to work

657
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: something out. Hankshaw. Thank you for being our guest,