1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Body times, but Joseph's gotten more decades. I've been coming 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: to grips with that recently in my life and my 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: own life's journey about, you know, thinking about how time 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: always slips away. You know, for me, I sit back 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: and I think I'm measuring my life in decades. Now 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm no longer measuring in years. It's a weird, weird thing, 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: very weird thing. But you know, it's not half as odd, 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: I would think, as it is for families that don't 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: have answers, because for many families, you know, when they 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: have a death or a person goes missing, time does stop. 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: And I would imagine that in some moment of lucidity, 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: they sit back and they say, oh my god, it's 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: been one decade, two decades, three days, four decades, and 14 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: still I don't have answers. Today, we're going to talk 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: about one such case, one such case that we finally 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: have answers for. And here's a bit of an insight. 17 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: The answers that we have lead right back to one 18 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: of the most prolific serial killers in Colorado State history. 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks brother Dave 20 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: mac Another day on this side of the dirt. It's 21 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: a good day, right man. 22 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 2: You know when you were talking about decades, you know, 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: in counting time like that, A very very brief slice 24 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: of Dave Macworld. 25 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love Dave Macworld. 26 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: This is a world that for the last forty eight hours. Yeah, 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: I've had it in the pit of my stomach. Oh lord, 28 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: girl that I dated in high school back in the day, yeah, 29 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: adult now went missing. Oh and it was one of 30 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: those things. You know, how many of these we cover, 31 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: And when you have an adult that goes missing, oftentimes 32 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 2: you know there are it just doesn't end well. And 33 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 2: an hour ago Frank Calton said, they found her. 34 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sorry. 35 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 2: No, No, she's alive. Yeah, found her alive. Yeah, I'm sorry. 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: I should breafacet to it. 37 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: All the more reason why I like Dave Macworld. That's 38 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: a happy ending. It was. 39 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 2: It was, And my first thought was for all of 40 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: the people that we do shows on that don't get 41 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: that news. They don't get that good news. They don't 42 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: get that. We don't ever call it closure, but it 43 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: is a chance to actually move on, to close the 44 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 2: chapter and open a new book. You never get that 45 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: closure that you think you're going to yet, but in 46 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: this and that's what made for the last hour, that's 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: what I've been thinking about it. I haven't thought about it. 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: I thought about her family and all that and how 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 2: happy they are now. But my first thought was those 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: who don't have answers and what that. I can't imagine 51 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: laying your head down on your pillow and not knowing 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: what happened. Now in this case, yeah, you know, we 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: actually know when Ronda Fisher was thirty years old, she 54 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: was killed. It happened on April Fool's Day, nineteen eighty seven. 55 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: What were you doing April first, nineteen eighty seven? Think 56 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: about that for a minute. 57 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: Can I tell you what I was doing. I was 58 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: living in New Orleans. 59 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: I was going to say, you're in New Orleans, Then 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: I was. 61 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: I was living in New Orleans. I was working part 62 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: time at the corner's office and working part time at 63 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: a hospital and going to college. Still wow, and living 64 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: the life man, you know, down in South Louisiana. And 65 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: it's weird. And again, you know, I don't want to 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: digress too much here, but you know it's it's weird. 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: You know, you get some where on the tires here 68 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: and you begin to look back and you hear these 69 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: dates and times, and automatically, you know, I think about, 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, where I was, what I was doing in 71 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. You don't think about necessarily the bad 72 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: things back then. You think about all the cool stuff 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: you were doing with your friends and stuff you were 74 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: learning at that point in time. You forget about the 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: minutia of life and how we were probably complaining about 76 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: life just as much back then as we do now. 77 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: I hope I'm complaining less now. But you know, you 78 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: look back and you've got you know, you're counting the 79 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: rings on the tree man. You know, you're sitting here 80 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: and you're thinking about it. So, yeah, back in eighty seven, 81 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: that's that's where I was. How about you? Were you 82 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: up in North Carolina at that point in time. 83 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: No, No, I was only there for a few years. 84 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: It's it's funny when you move around when you're younger. 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: You know. It's when I married LaDonna. You know, she 86 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 2: had grown up within a mile of the home she 87 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: lived in her whole life, I mean, this was her 88 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: entire life was in this one mile area pretty much. 89 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: And I'd lived in, you know, more places than she 90 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: in a year, you know, I went to different states 91 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: and things. So yeah, in this particular case, back in 92 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, April first, thirty year old Rhnda Fisher 93 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: is it's a vicious death. She's last seen in Cholera 94 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: and Denver, right, and her body is found twenty five 95 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: miles north. And she was sexually assaulted and strangled. Whenever 96 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: we hear those sexually assaulted and strangled, do you think 97 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: of that as somebody She was an opportunity for somebody 98 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 2: who was looking for a victim. 99 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I draw two concline illusions here. First off, 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: I do know this. When she was last seen in Denver, 101 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: she was on foot. She was a pedestrian. That's the 102 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: last time somebody saw her. The fact that, as you mentioned, 103 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: what was that that distance again you say it was 104 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: twenty five miles twenty five miles. Yeah, and you know 105 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: pretty quickly when you leave Denver, you get twenty five 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: miles away. It used to be it's not so much now, 107 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: but it used to be twenty five miles outside of Denver. 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: You were outside of Denver, and you were out in 109 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: a rural area. So that screams that someone had to 110 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: have a conveyance to get out there. She's not going 111 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: to walk twenty five miles, all right, that's just not 112 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: that's not in the cards. And also the fact that, 113 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if you mentioned this, but 114 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: the fact that she's dumped alongside of a roadway, which 115 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: is very intriguing for me anytime I hear this. There's 116 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: this huge golf day when you're working a scene and 117 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: you're thinking about the forensics of anything, you know, you 118 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: can have these cases where people are literally laid out 119 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: on the shoulder of the road. Now it may have 120 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: been the intention for the person that laid them out 121 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: on side of the road to have rolled them down 122 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: the hill to try to get them into a ditch, okay, 123 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: or a depressed area alongside. Because every road you come across, 124 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: even in Florida and South and South Louisiana, they're not 125 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: all flat. First off, you've got kind of a crown 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: and centered the road, and this is for water and 127 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: most of the time it's going to kind of you know, 128 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: drop off on the sides and you're gonna have some 129 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: kind of drainage area. I've always been fascinated by people 130 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: that just it would seem this way and know there's 131 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: certain motivations that that cereal perpetrators have, you know, for 132 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: the way they leave a body. Some people I think 133 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: that engage in this they still have the single one 134 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: in their brain. It's it's guilt and they want their 135 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: sins to be found out. They don't want to bury 136 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: the body, they want people to find it. Then you've 137 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: got another group of people within the subgrouping that are 138 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: looking to expedite you know, I'm dumping this when I'm 139 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: going on to the next one, okay, because many times 140 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: they're in a sexual frenzy. I'm of the opinion, and 141 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how many share this, but I'm of 142 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: the opinion that most serialized homicides have a sexualized element 143 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: to them, the line's share of them. Do you know 144 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: it's a control thing. It's certainly not about you know, 145 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: making love. It's about dominating and destroying and having the 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: power for somebody to do that. So you never know, 147 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: but it's just the idea. You know, you think about 148 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: someone in a car that has dumped a body out 149 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: for anyone to find. Now the question is I think 150 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: here did in inquiring minds want to know did this 151 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: assault take place? Within that vehicle, because what are the 152 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: odds that it would actually take place on the side 153 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: of the road. Now, I guess I could have pulled 154 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: over and park car on side of the road and committed 155 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: this section in this offense. I can't imagine that they 156 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: would do that. There's all kinds of dirt roads you 157 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: could go down and then oh, you know, by the boy, 158 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm just going to push her out randomly somewhere right. 159 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: That's that's very fascinating, you know, just that behavior in 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: and of itself. But we you know, the beauty of this, 161 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: I think from an evidentiary standpoint, from a forensic standpoint, 162 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: is that you you know that in a tight space 163 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: like in the cabin of a car, you're going to 164 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: have that kind of intimate, intimate connectivity with this individual 165 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: so that we transfer of trace evidence, threads, you know, 166 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: skin cells, all all manner of things like this, bodily fluids, 167 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: and it will all take place. There's this containment that 168 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: that goes on, and it's it's kind of a weird thing. 169 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: You know, you and I You always catch yourself, Dave 170 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: when we're talking. I don't know if you realize this, 171 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: you say, I hate to say this. You'll say that 172 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: when we remark about something that is actually positive news, 173 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: but it's so gruesome to most of the people. But this 174 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: is something that's like if you have a car, for instance, 175 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: I would much rather work a car where I have 176 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: that containment as opposed to being as opposed to being 177 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: in an open field. 178 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: Okay, well, let me ask you this, because isn't yeah, 179 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: when you have a case like this show where again 180 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: you know that she's last seen walking in Denver, and 181 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: yet her body is found twenty five miles north in 182 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: a culvert thrown off the side of the road. So 183 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: when you're looking at that front investigation standpoint, again, it's 184 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: kind of obvious that they didn't take her out there 185 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 2: and then carry on with whatever. They actually probably were 186 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: dumping a body that they had already killed, and that 187 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: would have meant that you would have tray's evidence on 188 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: her body from the car, maybe from a house, if 189 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: you know, if they snatched her off the street and 190 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: took her back to an apartment. And you know, there 191 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: are so many other things with this that that one 192 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: body could actually have. But in nineteen eighty seven, when 193 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: a body is found on the side of the road, Yeah, 194 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 2: what were you going to pull? Because now it would 195 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: be an automatic. We know we're going to get DNA, 196 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: we know we're going to look for we're gonna look 197 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: for car fiber. We're going to carpetfiber from the car. 198 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: We're going to be looking at the clothing, We're going 199 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: to look at all those things. But in nineteen eighty seven, yeah, 200 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: what were they looking for? It couldn't have been the 201 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: same thing we would do now. 202 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: No, to a certain degree, it was. I think the 203 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: watchword here is, even though people use minutia in a 204 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: negative connotation, many times, we are looking for minutia. You 205 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: want minutia and those fine little things, those fine little 206 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: points along the way. And some people will say, you know, well, 207 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: you know laying on. Seinfeld once stated one of the 208 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: best lines, I'm so sick and tired of listening to 209 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: She's referring to all the guys on the show. I'm 210 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: so sick and tired of listening to your minutia day 211 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 1: end of the day out She's going to get another 212 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: group of friends. Minusia is a good thing, though, because 213 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: it lends itself to that detail that we pride ourselves 214 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: on in forensics, we're some of the most boring people 215 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: in the world because we focus on those little minor 216 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: bits along the way. It's not going to be the 217 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: big broad picture. You know. Most of the time we're 218 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: looking for those those things that take a long, long time, 219 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: and so that detail is frustrating to some people, but 220 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: we find it intriguing. So can I just give you 221 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: the basic rundown of a case, how we would handle 222 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: this at the scene, and how we're going to treat 223 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: a body like this, and this still applies to this day. 224 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: Okay, this is how you would have done it on 225 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: April first. 226 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and Al's working cases then. So this is 227 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: something that I had been trained to do, and then 228 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: I took a lot of pride in doing and trying 229 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: to be as careful as possible. Even back then, I 230 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: would take precautions to glove up. We didn't wear bunny 231 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: suits back then, so if we had anything on our body, 232 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: it could fall off. Now, the generation before me, this 233 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: guy's didn't glove up. They didn't glove up. Ye have 234 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: to know, why would they? You know, I mean, yeah, 235 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: I know, why why would they? 236 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: In eighty seven you said, yeah, we gloved up, Well, 237 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: you know, what. I'm watching the O. J. Simpson coverage 238 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 2: on Rockingham and they weren't gloved up, you know. 239 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: Yes, some And the what's interesting if you go back 240 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: and look at that footage, there are people that are 241 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: wearing shoe covers and people that aren't. Yeah, you know, 242 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: it's my old it's a my old adage. Either you 243 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: got one foot in the water and one foot in 244 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: the boat, you know, and so you don't know you 245 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: know what's going on anyway. So yeah, with a case 246 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: like this, we would have been very very careful with 247 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: the body when collecting the body. Now this all starts, 248 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about after we have already taken all 249 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: the photography at the scene that we can. One of 250 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: the things we're going to do very painstakingly that scene 251 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: is we're going to protect that body any way that 252 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: we can. Well, I want everyone in the sound of 253 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: my voice right now to think about your hands. Think 254 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: about your hands just for a second, because I got 255 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: to tell you in this case, hands are the key 256 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: to everything. Consider your hands just for a moment. And hands, 257 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: even when we're baby, that's how we experience the world. Okay, 258 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: that's a site sound all that stuff too, But let's 259 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: face it, even when we're in our infantile stages, we're 260 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: touching things all the time. Well how much more so 261 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: in a case involving a grown woman. And here, you know, 262 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: we're thinking about this young lady that you know has 263 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: been found, you know, the victim of a gruesome homicide, Ronda. 264 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: And what miss Fisher was probably faced with at that 265 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: moment in her life, or what remained of her life, 266 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: is that she was trying to fend off an individual 267 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: that you know. Obviously I couldn't put myself in her shoes, 268 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: but the only thing I can imagine is at that 269 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: moment in toime, when she knows that life is leaving 270 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: her body, or it's about to she's in danger of it, 271 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: She's going to try to fend this person off. Well, 272 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: how are you going to do that? You're not going 273 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: to do it with your quick wit. You can do 274 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: it with your hands. You're gonna put your hands on them, 275 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: even if they're stronger than you. You're going to do 276 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: everything you can. Just imagine if somebody takes their hands 277 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: and wraps them around your throat and begins to squeeze. Well, 278 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us think that we're going 279 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: to be very brave about it, and we'll do this, 280 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: and we'll do that. No you want, no, you want, 281 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: You're going it's almost primal. You're going to go up 282 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: and you're going to grab their hands to try to 283 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: get relief. That's the first step. Many times, and people 284 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: will say, you know, self defense classes, they'll talk about 285 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: things like, you know, kicking between the legs and raking 286 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: the face. Well, breaking the face might happen, but it's not. 287 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: I don't think that it necessarily happens all the time 288 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: by somebody saying I'm going to rake the face. Most 289 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: of the time it's a reactionary event where they're just 290 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: flailing about. That's what happens. That's where that point of 291 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: contact takes place, not just raking the face, but also 292 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: raking the hands or or digging her fingernails into the 293 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: hands and the wrist. Okay, that's that's important to remember here. 294 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: So back to her body at the scene, after after 295 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: her body would have been photographed and measured and all 296 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: these sorts of things that we do because did you know, Dave, 297 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: that we like to do triangulation of bodies at scenes 298 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: because if we want to, it is harder than it sounds. 299 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: What we used to do before we had GPS. We 300 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: want to triangulate the body with uh. I used to 301 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: use a rolling wheel if you were seeing those like 302 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: you see them on the side of the road. Well, 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: construction people use them too. I always carry a rolling 304 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: wheel and it would click it off. Okay, but you 305 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: have to go to a fixed point. So you find 306 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: three fixed points and you triangulate that body, and you 307 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: put I do like center mass of the chest, top 308 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: of the head, and generally I would select either the 309 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: left or the right foot and go from the sole 310 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: of the foot to another fixed point. I could triangulate. 311 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: Why do you do that? Well, not only to create 312 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: a sketch, but if I wanted to take a jury 313 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: back out there, I could take a template of a 314 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: body like a mannequin and place it right back in 315 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: that spot. Wow, okay, just so people can visualize it 316 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: if you wanted to recreate that scene. So those measurements 317 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: would have been pulled pulled rather sorry. And then after 318 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: all of that is done and the whole area is 319 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: inspected for any kind of ancillary evidence, you got to 320 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: be real careful because you don't want to trample on anything. 321 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: If you're removing the body, because there's a big process 322 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: to this, you have to make sure you got a 323 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: clean white sheet. Okay. You're going to take a clean 324 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: white sheet and place it inside of a fresh body bag, okay, 325 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and the body is then picked up by individuals that 326 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: are using precautions body covering and they're placed down onto 327 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: the clean white sheet. When you place the body onto 328 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: the clean white sheet, you can either do this beforehand 329 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: or afterwards. I'd always do it when I have them 330 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: in the bag. I would take out brown paper bags 331 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: and now they have a different type of bag that 332 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: they use, and I would place one over each hand 333 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: and I would secure it with evidence tape around the wrist, 334 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: and I would write my name as a person that's 335 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: sealing it on there and I would put like if 336 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: it's right hand, I'd put an R with a circle 337 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: around it indicating right and then left. I know it 338 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: sounds crazy, but when the body gets back to the more, 339 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: I guess what we're going to do. Those are going 340 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: to be cut off. They're not going to The tape 341 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: is not going to be pulled off. You literally cut 342 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: it from the wrist and you have to have another 343 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: catchable portion there underneath another fresh, pristine, clean area to 344 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: hold the bag over. Because the reason we do that 345 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: is to protect the hands as they're going down the road, 346 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: because anything contained in there, if the body is like 347 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm doing a josh josh jostling motion right now, is 348 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: if I'm on television, you're jost of. The body is jostling, 349 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: and anything that falls off of those fingertips or off 350 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: of even the palms of the hands is going to 351 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: be captured in that back. Wow. Okay, So going back 352 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: to the point of contact, raking, raking the face, raking 353 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: the neck, raking the wrist, doing impressions, you know, with 354 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: the fingernails, all that stuff is going to be collected 355 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: and accounted for in that bag, and that bag, once 356 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: it's taken off, it is actually rebagged individually, okay, and 357 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: then it goes to trace evidence. That's that's the process 358 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: that happens. And I'm only talking about right now. You know, 359 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: Morgan left out a lot. Now I'm just focusing on 360 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: the hands right now. That's just one of the steps 361 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: that we do. And all that stuff has to be 362 00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: contained because what they're going to do is with with 363 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: these bags, Okay, they're going to put these bags under 364 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: a special type of microscope. Some will and they'll do 365 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: what's called a gross examination of the interior of that bag, 366 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: and they'll look for everything that's contained in there that 367 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: you can't necessarily see with the unaided eye, and any 368 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: of the little elements in there that they can pick 369 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: up on, Like you can find blood droplet, you can 370 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: find dried skin, you can find bits of skin hair, 371 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: you can even find different types of flora, you know, 372 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: elements of plants, all those sorts of things that are 373 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: contained that have fallen off. Okay, Now, in addition to 374 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: the bags, one of the things that's going to happen 375 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: with the hands is that the forensic pathologists will place 376 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: another will place another catch area, clean and pristine underneath 377 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: the hands. We will take a wooden stick and scrape 378 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: beneath each fingernail. Each fingernail get scraped. Then with clean 379 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: sterile nail clippers that come in a bag it's generally 380 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: an essay bag of sexual assault kit. You clip the 381 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: nails over this protected area and all that stuff is 382 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: gathered up. I've seen people do it. I've seen people 383 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: do it actually where they'll do a collection per finger, 384 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: and they'll keep each finger separated so there's no confusion 385 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: about it. Confusion because if you have it separated, say 386 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: if you've got the collection off of the right middle finger, Okay, 387 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of well, that person scraped 388 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: or put more pressure on this other subject with that 389 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: particular hand and scrape down and collected. Whereas we didn't 390 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: get anything off the right thumb, we didn't get anything 391 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: off the right pinky. Comparatively, did we get anything off 392 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: the left index finger? You see what I'm saying, And 393 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: so you can actually break it down by digit essentially, 394 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: that's just incredible. Yeah, and it's you see what I'm 395 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: talking about minutia and if you're taking your time with it, 396 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: If you're taking your time with it and you're not 397 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: trying to rush through the process. That's why in forensic 398 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: science we don't want anybody that's going to if you're 399 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: thinking about getting a career in forensics, we don't want 400 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 1: anybody that's, you know, that's going one hundred and ten 401 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: miles per hour. You have to have people that are 402 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: very thoughtful about what they're doing and painstaking because you know, 403 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: you can spend hours just on one case, you know, relative 404 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: to trace evidence. And you know, I got to tell you, Dave, 405 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: in this particular case's back actually came into play. 406 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: Well. You know, I mentioned when we were talking about 407 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: this of how the scene would have been dealt with 408 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven versus later. And it's fascinating to 409 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: me that what you were talking about with the bags, 410 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: a lot of it didn't occur to me really of 411 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: what would go on. But knowing how many cases are 412 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: sold because of fingernails, what's under the fingernails? What is found? 413 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 2: Why is it a paper bag? You're not a plastic bag. 414 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: Because plastic sweats. It's the most offensive thing that if 415 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: you really want to make forensics some bench I'm talking 416 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: about bench scientists, people with the white lab coats on 417 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: them that are sitting in a crime lab somewhere. If 418 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: you really want to make them furious, give them something 419 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: a plastic bag, because if it has any kind of well, 420 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: it's just think about it, okay, if it has any 421 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: kind if it is an organic substance that you're collecting, 422 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: you know, if it's like some kind of biologic okay 423 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: that you're trying to pull up, what does that sweating 424 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: do well, it degrades everything. I mean, it literally degrades. 425 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: It prompt decomposition you in the bag and maybe and 426 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: I'll tell you one of the worst worst things if 427 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: you've got like a bit of bloody clothing. I've actually 428 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: seen people that have done this before. I was assigned 429 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: out to this state crimeline for a while and they 430 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: some rural you know department had sent in they had 431 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: enough paper packs and they put and they had the 432 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: right idea because they had a bloody shirt, bloody pants, 433 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: bloody underwear, bloody bra bloody shoes, and they package them individually, 434 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: they packaged them in plastic and they sent them in. 435 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: You know, I've seen some of these cases where you 436 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: will actually see because of because of blood or other 437 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: biological elements. I've seen mold growing on things. 438 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 439 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's you know, because the bag is sweating. Wow, right, sweating, 440 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: and that kind of prompts it. You know, those sorts 441 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: of things that that's the big no nose. So that's 442 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: why we use paper traditionally. Now they have special bags 443 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: that are kind of breatheable, but they're not plastic, and 444 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: so you can you know, and it's I think that 445 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: they're probably much more efficient to the task because you 446 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: know the paper bags that we use, Dave, these are 447 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: the same paper bags that if you went down to 448 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: the corner grocery store, it's the same type of bag. 449 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: I mean, look, and we had the small ones, we 450 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: had the real tiny ones, had the medium sized ones, 451 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: and then we had the gigantic ones. And so I've 452 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: bagged just about every reasonable area of a human body. 453 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: I put bags on heads, bagged hands, backed feet, and 454 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: then I bagged individual individual anatomical elements that are no 455 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: longer attached to a body, you know, just so that 456 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: you can collect trace evidence. 457 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 2: Now, in this case, we've got we've got a woman 458 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: who's thirty years old, can't solve, don't know who killed her. 459 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: She's dead. She was sexually assaulted and left on the 460 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: side of the road, dead, lasting twenty five miles south 461 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 2: in Denver. Now, they're going to start with all the 462 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 2: usual suspects in any crime. They're going to start from 463 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 2: the insiding insact A boyfriend's associates feels she had dated, 464 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: what what did she do for work? They're going to 465 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: start looking at all of those people. That's a standard 466 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: rule here, right, Even if it's somebody who has found 467 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: like this doesn't even seem like an intimate person to me. 468 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like to me, And I'm probably really wrong. 469 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: But when I hear of somebody who was last seen 470 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: walking in Denver and her body has found twenty five 471 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 2: miles outside of town, discarded on the side of the road, 472 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: I'm not thinking of that as somebody that the person 473 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: had a connection with personally. I'm thinking that that sounds 474 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: like somebody thrown out trash. 475 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: Yeah it does. You know. We you and I have 476 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: talked about this extensively and we will continue to talk, right, 477 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: And that's memorialization of the dead, right, you know, because 478 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: it's like you it's almost like you know, I've never 479 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: I do a lot of study of like medieval history 480 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: and those sort of things what I do with my 481 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: spare time nerd alert. 482 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: But by the way, the stuff he looks up are 483 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: things that will make you have nightmares for the rest 484 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: of your life. 485 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: But no, I think about like, you know, like the 486 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: Battle of stirling Bridge and in Great Britain, you know, 487 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: William Wallace and what in Great Britain then in England, 488 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: and when you go into one of those battlefields. You know, 489 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: the bodies are just left there and now they have 490 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: people who gout and collect them. Or you think about 491 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: any civil war battlefield, which we can't calculate those numbers. 492 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: Now they're mind blowing to us. Now where you've got 493 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of dead. Well, that wasn't a personal relationship, right, okay, 494 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: And maybe it's a bad comparison, but it's you know, 495 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: people were cannon fodder. You heard that term before where 496 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: they'll say that, you know, people, when you go to war, 497 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: you're cannon fodder. Right, Well, ne'sary missive of humans. When 498 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: you say that, that means that you have the value 499 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: is you throw in your body into the into the battle. Well, 500 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: if you think about this in those terms cannon fodder, 501 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: I think that you make an excellent point here, Dave, 502 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: because there is no value in her as a person. 503 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, people proud alone about objectification. This is the 504 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: ultimate in objectification because we've got sexual assault here, and 505 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: that's another thing that that we would have to be 506 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, and how did back then, how did they 507 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: arrive at that conclusion? Okay? It's this is a serialized event. 508 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: You're thinking about her clothing and status of her clothing. 509 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: And that's a big question that we always ask when 510 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: we there's actually in some I've actually seen in some 511 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: forms that are generated by Medical Examiner's Office investigative reports 512 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: and stuff, that it'll have a section there they'll say 513 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: status of clothing, all right, And they're not just talking 514 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: about like did they have a shirt on? They have 515 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: pants on. That's not what they're talking about. They're actually 516 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: asking were the pants not only on, but were they 517 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: button where they zipped? Was there underwear? Where were the pants? 518 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: And orientation atomically where they were pushed down to the knees. Okay, 519 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: the shirt was pulled up or pushed up, the bra 520 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: is pushed up. I can't tell you how many cases 521 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: I've worked of sexual assault where you find the body 522 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: and it's left in that status after they have been killed, 523 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: and you can really get an insight into the mind 524 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: of the person. I think to a certain degree that's 525 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: done this, and automatically you're not thinking that this person 526 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: is memorializing this individual in any way. They had a 527 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: purpose that they served some kind of twisted sexual gratification, 528 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: and then they choked our last breath out of them 529 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: and dumped them on the side of a road twenty 530 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: five miles away from where they were lasting. The reason 531 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: I was excited about this case because I'm sure that 532 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: some of our friends out there are saying more than 533 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: this happened thirty years ago. I'm are you so excited 534 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: about it? Well, I'm so excited about it is because 535 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: we've actually gotten answers after all this time, and it's 536 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: it is science that has led us to this. Science 537 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: is a wonderful thing nowadays, isn't it. It's got a 538 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: bad side, but it's boys got an upside too, when 539 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: you begin to think about these cases that are being 540 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: closed out right now, and they're being closed out because 541 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: of molecular evidence, Dave, And in this particular case, we 542 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: knew who she was, knew how she died, we never 543 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: knew who did it. And Dave, I'm here to turn 544 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: this over to you to say that we now have 545 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: a name, don't. 546 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I was looking at this, and 547 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: I was looking at dates because I was trying to 548 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: think of the investigators. And that's why I was asking 549 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: you different questions because I try to think of You've 550 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: got a time period here in nineteen eighty seven. It's 551 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 2: Denver area, and you've got a body. And there was 552 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: one person who had made his way through Colorado, Ted Bundy, 553 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: you know, and his news because he was not put 554 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 2: to death till eighty nine, so he was in prison, 555 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: you know, in eighty seven. But people out there were 556 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: still thinking, you know, he would sexually assault people, stranglehim, 557 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: kill him and dash. You know, he did that all 558 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: over the place. And I just wonder sometimes when police 559 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: officers come along, investigators come along a scene and they 560 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: start thinking, well, we've tried, We've gone with all the 561 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: usual suspects. We've gone with everybody close by, relationships, passing acquaintances, 562 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: and nothing is working out. Do we start going down 563 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: the list, Well, let's look at our sir, Let's look 564 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: at people who have killed a lot more than just one. 565 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: And you eliminate those that are dead or in jail 566 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: at the time. But years later, you know, after this 567 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: thing has gone cold, as it did many times when 568 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 2: I was looking at this after you sent it to him, 569 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: I'm like, wait a minute. In twenty seventeen, they broke 570 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: it out of the cold case files. They had DNA, 571 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,959 Speaker 2: they had all the technology we had, you know, eight 572 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 2: years ago, and you know what they didn't solve it. 573 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: They did not crack the case. Still, I'm not saying 574 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: that I guess the science they just didn't come together 575 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: for them. It wasn't until the last twelve months, the 576 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: last twelve months where finally Ronda Marie Fisher, the thirty 577 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: year old woman who was last seen in Denver walking 578 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: on April the first, nineteen eighty seven, well found April 579 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: the first, nineteen eighty seven. We actually know who killed her, 580 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: and it was somebody that was well known to law enforcement, 581 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: somebody especially now looking back on it, who actually has 582 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: been dead for almost thirty years himself. Yeah, you know 583 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 2: this guy. His name is Vincent Darryl Groves. He died 584 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six. Joe, How are you you know? 585 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: He dies nine years after killing her? He dies nine 586 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: years after killing Ronda. Now I want to know how 587 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: did he get away with it for that long? And 588 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: how did they possibly tie her death to a dead man? 589 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: Guy? 590 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 2: He's been dead for us. He's been warm food for 591 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 2: a long time. 592 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: It was her hands, It was Wrong's hands. Wow, you know, 593 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: it's really weird, you know you think about it. You know, 594 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: when he was closing his eyes in death, he probably 595 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: thought that this was, you know, because he had confessed 596 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: other you know, and some people put his numbers. The 597 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: people in Colorado keep saying that one of the most 598 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: prolific in Colorado history. And I've heard the numbers range 599 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: all the way from fourteen to possibly twenty. You always 600 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: hear these weird kind of numbers. You know that they'll 601 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: the the expanse of these things is mind blowing. Sometimes, however, 602 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: did they do that? 603 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: Sometimes though you've got a similar case over here, we 604 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 2: got no way of solving it, and we can depend 605 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: it on this guy. Just maybe give the family some 606 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: light at the end of the tunnel, you know what 607 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: I mean. Do you think that ever happens? 608 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it used to happen in the past. 609 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 1: And of course there were a couple of these guys 610 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: that got free lunches out of it too, you know, 611 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: going back to Audust two, thinking about him and Henry. 612 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: You know, they would get you know, free trips out 613 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: of this to go and indicate where they had killed somebody, 614 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: which is you know, super you know, super odd now, 615 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: and they would take credit for it, and of course 616 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: the other person by virtually you know, they're perpetrating, not 617 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: just horror that they've done previously. Now they're portraying another 618 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: crime because they're they're lying at that point toime and 619 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: and and keeping that individual on the street that might 620 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: still be perpetrating cases. 621 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 2: I'd look at Henry Lee Lucas and think you felt 622 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 2: he did it for a pack of smokes and a 623 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 2: cup of coffee. You know, he would tell you anything. 624 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 2: But anyway, So tell me about this guy. Tell me 625 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: about Benson Groves show. How did they actually tag him? 626 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: Well, they tagged him because what happened is they had 627 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: taken sample, you know, from him over the years, and uh, 628 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: he was doing a turn in state pen. You know, 629 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: he did several turns. He's a career offender. He had 630 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: been married and was relatively successful early on in his 631 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: young life. College student, played bad basketball up in Iowa, 632 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: then quit going to class, quit everything else, moved back 633 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: to Denver, or just outside of Denver, lived with his grandmother, 634 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: and he got a job I think as an electrician. 635 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: He had a lot of spare time on his hands. Well, 636 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: he would wind up cruising. I think it's called Colfax street. 637 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: I'd heard that term. I had a friend of mine 638 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: that used to be with Denver homicide, and I remember 639 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: him mentioning this he'd worked vice for a long time, 640 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: not this case, but just Colfax Street because this is 641 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: an area where pimps and prostitutes hanging. Well, this individual, 642 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: this perpetrator that is now deceased, began hanging out with 643 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: pimps and prostitutes and then after a period of time, 644 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: Dave he actually groomed a few women along the way. 645 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: His earliest kill was back in I think he had 646 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: a late seventies early eighties, and it was a girl 647 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: that he was pimping. 648 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 2: And she was seventeen when he started pimping. 649 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: She was seventeen. So they they had yeah, baka, they 650 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: had his sample. They had sample from him siblings or 651 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: his parents, I believe, And so that's you know, that's 652 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: just kind of sitting there. So you know, back to 653 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: the bags, when you're going when you're going to collect 654 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: this from a trace evidence standpoint, you never know where 655 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: this is going to wind up. That's one of the 656 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: cool things about forensics, those those little bitty actions that 657 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: you take all the way back in time. You know, 658 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm becoming reflective now going back to eighty seven. Those 659 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: actions that maybe I took in a case back in 660 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: eighty seven that might still be unsolved. Did I do 661 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: the right thing at that particular time? Did I do 662 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: all of the collection? Because you've got to be real careful, 663 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: you don't know, you might not get a hit immediately. 664 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: But they had enough in the bank and in the 665 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: tank relative to what they had collected from her and 666 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: then from him in any associated relatives, David, they were 667 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: able to do a DNA match on him. And I 668 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: think that probably because you know, his kind of modus 669 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: operandi was he would take these girls off the street. 670 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: He was a violent, violent toward them. They I think 671 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: to a person, I think they're all strangled, every single 672 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: one of them. 673 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 674 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: This is not something where he's using a bludgeon or 675 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: a knife or you know whatever, a weapon, pistol or whatever. 676 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: He's actually using his hands, wrapping the hands around the 677 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: throat so you can feel the life leaving out of 678 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: body as he's sexually assaulting them. And now to mention 679 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: if they did the rape kits as well, this kind 680 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: of doubles up. And this is kind of interesting as well. 681 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: How many rape kits do they actually perform where they 682 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: would do swabs? You know the vaginal swabs, anal swabs, 683 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: oral swabs that we collect commonly with rape kits, hair pluckings, 684 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: and people don't realize this, did you know with if 685 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: there is genital the genital contact, Okay, in a rape, 686 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 1: what will happen is that you will have hairs, pubic 687 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: hairs that will fall off of the perpetrator or will 688 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: come off of the victim and attach to the perpetrator. 689 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: But most of the time we're looking for perp to 690 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: victim hair sample and we'll do we do combings. Actually 691 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: if you've heard of a fine tooth comb, we'll actually 692 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: do combing of the pubic region the hair, hoping that 693 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: we'll get a straight hair. And then we will do 694 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: hair pluckings as well, where we get the roots out, okay, 695 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of that. That totality of this collection 696 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: wound up in this case and they're saying that it 697 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: came from the bag. So this is an this is 698 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: out from underneath her her fingernails. So in her last 699 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: moments trying to survive at the hands of this monster, 700 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: she did a better collection. She did a better evidence 701 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: collection than I've probably ever done in my entire life. Man, 702 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: because she raked him at that point in time, or 703 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: pressed her nails into him. She got something from him 704 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: that was part of his molecular blueprint, and it has 705 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: lingered all this time, even in death. Both these people 706 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: obviously are dead now. But you know how satisfying is this. 707 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: It's horrible, but you know again, how satisfying is it? Again? 708 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: Another example of if you're thinking about doing something out there, 709 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: if you're thinking about engaging this behavior, it ain't. It 710 00:41:51,680 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: ain't nineteen eighty seven anymore. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 711 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: this is by backs