1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm very pleased today on the Warning podcast to welcome 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Peter Hanby. Peter is a founder of Puck News, along 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: with a group of other distinguished journalists who are breaking 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: the news model. Formerly, he was a national political reporter 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: at CNN, and he was the host of good Luck 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: America on Snapchat. I think Peter is one of the 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: smartest political journalists and analysts that observes American politics, writes 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: about it, talks about it. I've known him for a 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: really long time, and I'm very pleased that he's joined 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: us today to have a conversation about what's happening in America, 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: what's happening in the news media, and how it shapes 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: everything that you see around us. 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: Peter, Welcome, Thanks ming Steve. Good to see you well. 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm up here in New Hampshire. As we know, I 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: am helping Dean Phillips run for president in a Democratic primary, 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: and of course you're covering that race with Puck News. 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: I think it says something interesting about the media model 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty four that you are a journalist, but 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: you are also an entrepreneur. You are a founder of 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: a media company. The Warning is a media company property 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: I'm involved in a campaign, and here we are on 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: these platforms having a conversation that's going to reach a 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: lot of people, completely outside of the structures that were 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: so dominant in the early part of our political career. 25 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: And I am a huge fan, as you know, of 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: puck News. 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: I like reading it. 28 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: I loved the writing style, the vanity, fair pop that 29 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: John Kelly brings to it. I think it's an exception 30 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: news product. I've recommended it to the warning community over 31 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: and over again. But why don't you talk about puck 32 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: News what it is, how it came to be, and 33 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: how puck News operates differently and sees the world, and 34 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: what its frame is with regard to covering this moment 35 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: because it's unique. 36 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,839 Speaker 4: That's a good question. I sometimes start this question by 37 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 4: remembering a toast I gave at a friend's wedding back 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, and at that point I left CNN, 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 4: I was at Snapchat. I was hosting my Snapchat show, 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: which is geared toward mostly gen z and I made 41 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 4: a self deprecating joke in the wedding toast, as you do, 42 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: about how I was no longer a journalist. I was 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 4: a content creator. Now living in the influencer space on 44 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 4: social media and smartphones. But the idea of the journalist 45 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 4: as a creator is central to how Tuck thinks about 46 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 4: our news organization. We hired, as you mentioned, a bunch 47 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 4: of really talented veteran journalists who were also muscular writers, 48 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 4: which I think is a you know, forgotten skill some 49 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 4: some sometimes Julia Yaffi to cover foreign policy, Matt Bellanie 50 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 4: covering Hollywood, Teddy Schleifer covering money. We have people covering 51 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 4: very discreete beats and they own those beats. And John Kelly, 52 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 4: who is our founder and CEO, who was an old 53 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: editor of mine at Vanity Fairs to High which was 54 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: Vanity Fair's digital property, and I wrote about politics for 55 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: them every now and then, and he was just telling 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 4: me over the years, like journalists give away so much 57 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 4: of their insights and content for free, you know, especially 58 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 4: older ones, and that's a that's a founding problem of journalism. 59 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: In the age of the Internet, news organizations decided to 60 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: give away their content for free. Look, we as journalists 61 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 4: feel that we have a public responsibility. That's why I 62 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: were called the fourth estates. You know, It's seen as 63 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 4: a public good and at the time, you can be like, oh, yeah, sure, 64 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 4: we should have put our stories on the internet for free, 65 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 4: but that led to some bad incentives and the current 66 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 4: world we live in where ads supported media is often 67 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 4: driven by click fait, social media feeds are polluted by 68 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 4: takes and bad actors, and like, you know, people are 69 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 4: willing to fill that void with whatever slop is out there. 70 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 4: And so John looked at the world and he said, 71 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 4: people are willing to pay for good journalism that calls 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 4: balls and strikes, that is informed by experience and wisdom. 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 4: And all of you writers, who I want you to 74 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 4: come on this ship with me, like you bring a following, 75 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 4: and so you know, I had you're among these people. 76 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 4: But you know, I was in CNN for ten years 77 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 4: and I've been I've been in politics, not as long 78 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,119 Speaker 4: as you, but like a pretty long time at this point. 79 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 4: And had an email list and like every time I 80 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 4: would write an article for CNN, I had a BCC 81 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 4: email list, and you get these emails all the time 82 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 4: where it's like I would write a story about you 83 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 4: know at the time, like Obama or Mitt Romney and 84 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 4: blasted out to a bunch of people. Don's proposition was 85 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 4: I think people would be willing to throw a few 86 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 4: bucks to actually read this stuff because people like you. 87 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: And the business model is, if even a handful of 88 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 4: people are willing to pay a certain amount for this writing, 89 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 4: you can build a business on top of that. And 90 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 4: so basically, you know, it's a combination of the sub 91 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 4: stack idea where people pay to follow writers and reporters 92 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 4: they want, but blended together with a traditional newsroom model 93 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 4: where we have editors and editorial standards and so you know, 94 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 4: we're starting small and nimble, but that's the right way 95 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 4: to grow startup, especially in this economy, and it's turning 96 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 4: into something that I think people really want because you know, again, 97 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 4: our reporters have great sources. We're willing to tell the 98 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 4: truth and not just be beholden to orthodoxies on the 99 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 4: internet or revenue chasing business models out there. And all 100 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 4: of our reporters have a good following and expertise where 101 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 4: people trust us. But we're still growing. You know, like 102 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 4: if I was in New Hampshire right now and I 103 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 4: went up to a man on the street in Manchester 104 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 4: and said I was getting some quotes for Puck, they'd 105 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 4: be like, you know, what the f is PUCK, you know, 106 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 4: so there's still those like growing pains you have when 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 4: you're a new brand in the universe. But for people listening, 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 4: I would compare the business model to something like the 109 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 4: Athletic or the Information. These are sort of subscription based 110 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 4: news organizations where you're paying for journalism and journalists are 111 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 4: the creators at the center of business model. And that 112 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 4: feels good for me at least. You know, the business 113 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 4: model might not work for every news organization, but it's 114 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 4: working for us. 115 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: Can you talk about at the beginning of the launch 116 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: of a company like this, you're sitting in a room. 117 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: It's a business. The business needs to. 118 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Be profitable in a time where trust has collapsed between 119 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: the American people and literally every institution in the country. 120 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: Even the military now is a is in a rapid 121 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: state of decline with its with its trust numbers. Are 122 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: you conscious of that as you and your partners in 123 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: a new news organization in the beginning in the room, do. 124 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: You talk about it? 125 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: Do you talk about the standards, the integrity issues that 126 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: you want to bring to life at PUCK that are 127 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:06,239 Speaker 1: elemental right as news values, but antithetical for a lot 128 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: of quote unquote news organizations in this age where the 129 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: easy buck is the freak show dollar, and is the 130 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: nutjob dollar, is the conflict dollar and the angertainment dollar, 131 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: and PUCK is not going down that road. So it 132 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: is clearly, in my estimation, moored by some type of 133 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: ethical standard. That's not a written policy, but that's a 134 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: core conviction amongst the group of people that sat in 135 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: the room, and I think it's evident in the sophistication 136 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: of the writing, the nuance of the takes, and the 137 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: real insights that come from the publication that illuminate in 138 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: spectacular fashion what's happening at the connection point of America's 139 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: America's power cast, you know, which is Silicon Valley, Wall Street, 140 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: Washington and Los Angeles. 141 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 4: I have so many thoughts and opinions over this over 142 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 4: the years, right going from CNN to Snapchat, and I 143 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 4: still work at Snapchat along with Puck and then Puck 144 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 4: as well. The number one thing I think that you're 145 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: getting at is respect for the audience and the readers, 146 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 4: which we have at PUCK. But also, you know, I 147 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 4: think this was Snapchat too. I try to as much 148 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: as we live in this new media world where you 149 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 4: are competing for attention against not just the New York 150 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 4: Times and CNN, you're competing against Netflix and your friends 151 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: text messages and you know, games and sports, and you're 152 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 4: a lot like we're just in an infinitestable, endless competition 153 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: for attention. And so I've tried to in that world 154 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 4: still hold on to which I something I think is 155 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 4: a declining and disappearing virtue, which is really trying to 156 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 4: tell the truth, not worry about angering you know, one 157 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 4: partisan group or another, and just and also just listening 158 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 4: and trusting your journalism instincts that have been honed over 159 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 4: many years to be like I think this is a cliche, 160 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 4: but it's the old Woodward and Bernstein thing, the best 161 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 4: obtainable version of the truth. What that means is going 162 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 4: out into the world gathering information and not leading with 163 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 4: the headline, like I think a lot of journalism now 164 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 4: is like people wanting to write a story and there's 165 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 4: no they're there, you know, starting with the headline and 166 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: trying to fill it in, rather than going out into 167 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 4: the world and listening to people and reading a bunch 168 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 4: of things and gathering stuff and then being like, Okay, 169 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: what's the headline from all of that from the bottom up. 170 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 4: And so I think a good example of this, and 171 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 4: I've talked about this a decent amount is CNN, which is, 172 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 4: by the way, I love and root for CNN. They 173 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 4: were so great to my career. They sent me out 174 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 4: on the campaign trail when I was in my twenties 175 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 4: to cover McCain when you were out on that campaign, 176 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 4: and I owe them a lot. But I think in 177 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 4: the Trump and Draft Soccer years, everything was a hair 178 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 4: on fire volume eleven emergency. And look, I know you 179 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: and a lot of your listeners also believe that, but 180 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 4: I do think that ten percent of the time, maybe 181 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 4: you know, you can turn the volume down, and that 182 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 4: for a news brand like CNN, the most trusted name 183 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 4: in news during those years, it just veered a lot. 184 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 2: Into outrage opinion. 185 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 4: And I think they lost trust with audience because you know, 186 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 4: they didn't totally respect the audience's appetite for the things 187 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 4: they're talking about, nuance, respect for different opinions sometimes and 188 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 4: CNN's trust, according to multiple polls, declined significantly over the 189 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 4: Trump years, and I think that's not just because he 190 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 4: was sorry that CNN was subject to attacks from Donald 191 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 4: Trump all the time, calling them, you know, fake news 192 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 4: and the enemy of the people. Trust also declined among 193 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 4: Democrats and independents, and that's not true for other news organizations. 194 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 4: By the way, the most trusted news organization in the 195 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 4: United States Steve according to the Reuters Institute of Journalism 196 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 4: and the Night Foundation, I believe, is not any of 197 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 4: the news organizations we know or think of. Well, Number 198 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 4: one is the Weather Channel because it's just the facts, 199 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 4: here's the weather, you can see it. Number two is 200 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 4: the BBC, which is not an American news organization and 201 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 4: is the number one most trusted news organization in the US. 202 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 4: And like you know, the BBC might have challenges here 203 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 4: and there, but they don't allow their reporters to just 204 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 4: tweet their opinions all the time. 205 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: They are very you know. 206 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 4: Associated press style newsroom, where it's here's the facts, and 207 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 4: we have cameras in the on the ground and places 208 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 4: around the world to show you these stories. And I 209 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 4: think that kind of behavior, over time is the kind 210 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 4: of stuff that generates trust. And the only other thing 211 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 4: I'll say on this is I was at the Iowa 212 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 4: State Fair back in August, you know, covering all of 213 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 4: the hapless Republicans who aren't beating Donald Trump right now. 214 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 4: And you know, I. 215 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: Was stopped by lots of people there. 216 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 4: At the fair in quote unquote flyover Country who like 217 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 4: my snapchat show a lot, and I was like, just 218 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 4: tell me why. And these these weren't just gen z. 219 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 4: This is like, you know, millennials too. They're like, you 220 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 4: seem fair. Like there's just every time I turn on 221 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 4: this channel or that channel, every time I see a headline, 222 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 4: I feel like it is either outrage clickbait or politically biased. 223 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 4: And you know, some people just say that reflexively, but 224 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 4: they're like, sometimes you write fair or you do fair 225 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 4: and critical stories about democrats too, and like even if 226 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: you only do it a few times, like that suggests 227 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 4: to me, you know that, like you don't think I'm 228 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 4: an idiot, you know, And so I just it's an 229 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 4: old school belief for somebody who works in new media, 230 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 4: but I do believe that respecting the audience is a 231 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 4: very very important thing for journalists to do. 232 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: Viewers and readers a. 233 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 4: Lot of them are dumb, but a lot of them aren't. 234 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: And they, you know, they can sniff out what feels like, 235 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 4: you know, a fake narrative or you know, an outrage 236 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 4: driven narrative versus what feels right, and I think that's 237 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 4: sort of what I'm hewing closely to. 238 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: I've used the word Trump industrial complex to describe what's 239 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: come together over the course of the seven years, and 240 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: so I'll use the group that I founded as a 241 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: case in point in that there's an old saying every 242 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: cause becomes a business, becomes a racket. 243 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: And so the. 244 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: Cause Right raised one hundred million dollars, where eighty five 245 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: percent of it is spent where it's supposed to be. 246 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: Jump forward a couple of years. You have people representing 247 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: that organization. The brand there is venomous and crazy as 248 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: anything on the far right. There is nasty. Ninety three 249 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: cents of every dollar goes into the pockets of the 250 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: people that run it. It's a reciprocal grift, and a 251 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: lot of these people are the same people what I 252 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: hear you describing when you talk about CNN and the 253 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: breach of trust. I assess that as the result of 254 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: profound cultural condescension, which is just dripped on huge parts 255 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: of the country in a frame that implies they're stupid, 256 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: that they're immoral. The vaccine debate is a perfect example 257 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: of this. It should not be mystifying in a country 258 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: where one million people are dead from opioids, which we're 259 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: told to the people who took them were safe because 260 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: of guidance from the FDA that a few years after that, 261 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: including the history with African Americans and experimentation the Tuskegee experiments. Now, 262 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: when the government says you have to take this in 263 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: this country, and rightfully so, particularly with the tragedy of 264 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: the opiate epidemic, there's going to be skepticism. And so 265 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: none of that was carefully considered reported with any nuance. 266 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 3: It was all always right. 267 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: The Rubes are rebelling over and over and over again. 268 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: And so I want to ask this question because Joe 269 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: Scarborough said something that I thought was very important and 270 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: he should be credited with saying it. 271 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: And I watched. 272 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: Operienced this exact thing sitting on a set on MSNBC 273 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: for all the years that Trump rose, and it was this. 274 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: Every single Republican came on air when the camera was off, 275 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: they said Trump is crazy, He'll destroy the party in 276 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: probably the country. And when the camera light went on, 277 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: they were his obedient servants. 278 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: He could do no wrong. 279 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: What Joe Scarborough said and you know this is true? 280 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: Is that every and he said, every Democrat who comes 281 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: on my show says one thing on camera and something 282 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: else entirely as it relates to Biden. So my question 283 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: is this full stop. We talk a lot about misinformation. 284 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: CNN has talked a lot about miss information. MSNBC's talked 285 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot about misinformation. We talk about misinformation on Twitter, 286 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: we talk about misinformation from the Russians. Is it fair 287 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: to evaluate the power class of the country, the juncture 288 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,719 Speaker 1: point between the media and the politics in this moment 289 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: in time engaged in what functionally is a broad misinformation 290 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: campaign Because I know I am, I am, I'm looking 291 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: into the camera, I am telling you right that I 292 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: know for certain right the people I'm talking about right 293 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: say one thing, which is every Democratic member of Congress, 294 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: they say one thing privately and another publicly with concerns 295 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: about about the president, right and his ability to beat 296 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Nobody says they don't respect Joe Biden. Nobody 297 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: says that Joe Biden is just completely. 298 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 3: Wrong on the policies. 299 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,239 Speaker 1: What everybody says is they don't think he's going to 300 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: beat Donald Trump. 301 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: And it's remarkable that. 302 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: They think it's best to keep it a secret from 303 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: the country, when in fact, eighty percent of the country 304 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: is literally screaming, we do not want the choice of 305 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Don't want it. So if 306 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: you want to ask me what the poll says, all 307 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: of it accumulated, what does the polling say in this 308 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: election cycle? I'm going to tell you what it says 309 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: is the American people don't want Joe Biden to run 310 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: for a second term, and he's losing to Donald Trump, 311 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: which is an incredible achievement considering the sexual abuse, the insurrection, 312 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: the thirty five thousand lies, the madness, the insanity, and 313 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: all of it. The extremist movement is hotter, it's better organized, 314 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: it's better funded. This Trump campaign is not shambolic. This 315 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: Trump campaign is lean and mean and running to win. 316 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: And so my question is. 317 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: Am I right to think about this through that misinformation prism? 318 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: Because what I see is the power class of the 319 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: country and an argument with eighty percent of the American 320 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: people on a question that they're being really clear about, 321 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: and everybody is saying one thing in private and another 322 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: thing in public at a level that I've never seen 323 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: in my political career with one exception, and that was 324 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: the lead up to the report Publican nomination when the 325 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: Republicans were going from opposed to getting in line by 326 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: the worst person ever be president and the biggest threat 327 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: to this country since the Confederacy. 328 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 4: So nothing you've said just now, Steve, is controversial. I 329 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 4: will say that. And by the way, after I answer, 330 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 4: I don't know if this is the first pod you've 331 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 4: hosted since being with Dean Phillips in New Hampshire, but 332 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 4: I'm sure you have gleaned some anecdotes from voters up 333 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 4: there on this topic, and I'd like to hear those two. 334 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 4: So I guess the one thing I might quibble with 335 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: is the term disinformation. But what I agree with is 336 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 4: I think the disconnect between the power elite in Washington 337 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 4: and I include parts of the press in that has 338 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 4: never been more removed from the everyday experience of most 339 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 4: Americans on the media side, you know, and you probably 340 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 4: saw this again in New Hampshire out on the campaign 341 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 4: trail with a lot of people in the press. The 342 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 4: Washington political press still thinks they're the center. 343 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: Of the universe in terms. 344 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 4: Of media consumption, when in fact they are just a 345 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 4: part of it and a shrinking part of it, at 346 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 4: least on the cable news front. You are correct that 347 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: there's this curious delta, and I'm talking about Democratic voters 348 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 4: here between do you want Joe Biden to be the nominee? 349 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 4: And I'm sorry, do you want somebody else to become 350 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: the nominee? And when presented with no other options, they say, sure, 351 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 4: I'd be fine with it, but they're not even that 352 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 4: fine with it right now. Gallup came out with a 353 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,959 Speaker 4: poll last week that showed Biden losing support among voters 354 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 4: under thirty, dropping eleven points in a month, and his 355 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 4: approval rating is now thirty seven percent, which does Donald 356 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 4: Trump level territory the White House? In my conversations with them, 357 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 4: especially in the last week, where you have this like 358 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 4: confluence of young progressives revolting against Biden because of this 359 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 4: support for Israel, it's a whole other topic. You have 360 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 4: just generally dismal poll numbers. And then you have Dean 361 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 4: Phillips arriving on the scene and their take is approval 362 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 4: ratings in modern partisan, polarizing times don't really matter. What 363 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 4: matters is you get to next November, and it's a 364 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 4: choice and the choice is what matters. People don't need 365 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 4: to be inspired, They just need to know that it's 366 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 4: either Biden, who, yeah, is probably old, sorry is old, 367 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: and Donald Trump, who's a maniac. And that is their 368 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 4: perspective on this. But it's it's kind of freaky to 369 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 4: think about if you're a Democratic voter. If you look 370 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: at the math, the presidential race in twenty twenty was 371 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 4: decided by what forty four thousand votes in Arizona, Michigan. 372 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 3: And Georgia. 373 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 4: If you compare twenty sixteen to twenty twenty, what did 374 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 4: Donald Trump get in the This isn't the popular vote, but. 375 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 2: What did he get in twenty sixteen? 376 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 4: He hit forty six percent of the vote. All right, 377 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 4: He hit forty six percent of the vote in twenty sixteen. 378 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty, he basically hit the same number. He's 379 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 4: got a ceiling. The difference is that people stayed home 380 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 4: or voted third party and weren't inspired by Hillary Clinton. 381 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 4: Biden was able to go over forty six percent in 382 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 4: twenty twenty. But you know, if young people don't show 383 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 4: up in the numbers they need in those. 384 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: Key states, and if you've. 385 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 4: Got people like Cornell West and RFK Junior on the 386 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 4: third party sidelines or sorry, waving the flag of third parties. 387 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 4: You know that brings the number below Trump's ceiling possibly, 388 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 4: And it's pretty scary, I will say, and I agree 389 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 4: with you. I think people say one thing in the 390 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 4: green room and something else on television. There are a 391 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 4: few reasons for that. And by the way, not to 392 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 4: plug PUCK again, but like one might colleagues, Lauren Sherman said, 393 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 4: one of the promises of Puck is that we write 394 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 4: about what's happening between the press releases. You know, we 395 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 4: say the quiet part out loud. We are willing to 396 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 4: say what people are talking about in the green room 397 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 4: before they go on the set of Morning Joe. But 398 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 4: some of this is careerism. And like Cewright Mills has 399 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 4: written about wrote about this like sixty years ago, Like 400 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 4: this is not a new piece of criticism from media critics. 401 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 4: But you know, if you are a young reporter who 402 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 4: wants to climb the ladder, if you are a strategist 403 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 4: who wants to make some extra money, if you want 404 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 4: to become a cable news contributor, there are things within 405 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 4: the received wisdom of Washington and New York that you 406 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 4: can say that keep you within the guideposts of a 407 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 4: career going up the ladder, and so you do pull punches, 408 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 4: you know. When I talked to Dean last week for 409 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 4: this piece I'm writing for Puck, he said there's a 410 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 4: quote culture of silence among his Democratic colleagues in the 411 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 4: House around Biden's age. Look, people like their committee assignments. 412 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 4: People like being able to write a check to build 413 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 4: something back in their district. People like getting invited to 414 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 4: the cool parties. Sorry, that's like an understated thing, Steve, Like, 415 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 4: people don't want to get like shun from the parties, 416 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 4: you know, once you get to DC, whether you're in 417 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 4: the press or in politics. And so yeah, I think 418 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 4: people say and every focus group shows this. Most normal 419 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: people think Biden is really old. And also if you 420 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 4: talk to I had this experience in Iowa. And this 421 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 4: is also probably a sore spot for Democrats or a 422 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 4: worrying point for Democrats. Yeah, Trump is old, and that 423 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 4: Trump is like slurring his words every day and then 424 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 4: and Trump, by the way, makes no sense when he talks. 425 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 4: But you talk to voters, like just normal people out there. 426 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 4: They could be Democrats, Republicans, non voters, even like they 427 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 4: see a difference with Biden that they don't think with Trump. 428 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 4: They think Trump is like energetic and he's like with it, 429 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 4: and they voters don't really think that about Biden. These 430 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 4: are not my words, by the way, and these are 431 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 4: not your words. These are the words of Democrats and 432 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 4: focus groups that I've talked to. These are the words 433 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 4: of young voters. I was on the campus of the 434 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 4: University of Wisconsin a few weeks ago doing some filming 435 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 4: for my Snapchat show and just asking gen Z, are 436 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: you excited about a rematch, because that's what you're going 437 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 4: to get? No one is now. A lot of those 438 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: people said they would still show up and vote for 439 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 4: Biden if that was the choice, which validates the White 440 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 4: House message. But yeah, I mean, like I would love 441 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 4: to hear be a fly on the wall and some 442 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 4: conversations among elected Democrats in the House and Senate about 443 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 4: Biden's age, because I'm sure they're worried about it. 444 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: So here here's my question right on on this. 445 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: So I kind of have. 446 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: A test for journalists that I've applied right during the 447 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: years I've operated at a presidential campaign level. Once I 448 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: kind of figured out what I didn't know what I 449 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: did and felt like I was experienced around this very 450 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: weird track. And my test is what journalists am I 451 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 1: talking to that could do this? If they were if 452 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: they had become right campaign people right, that would have 453 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: been able to do this, And it's a really small list. 454 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: You are on that list, you would have been a 455 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: really good political diss Chuck Todd would have been, Bob 456 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: Costa would have been Ryan Liza would have been people 457 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: who really are deep out Tim Alberta would have been 458 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: people who are deeply, deeply, deeply knowledgeable about politics, the country, 459 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: the culture, its history, its sociology, its generations, all. 460 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 3: Of that stuff. 461 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: One of the fault lines, like in presidential politics right 462 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: just as a as a philosophy, Right, is the nature 463 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: of a presidential campaign? Is it a referendum on the 464 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: president or is it a choice between candidates? 465 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 3: I have always believed it is a. 466 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: Choice, not a referendum on the on the incumbent. And 467 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: that's a really important thing to recognize. Now the Biden 468 00:30:53,040 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: campaign is saying that when the choice is clear, the 469 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: choice will be Biden versus Trump. I'm gonna tell you 470 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: what I think. The failure of logic is here. Why 471 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: is Donald Trump winning today in an election that's going 472 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: to be about a choice? Because I think the one thing. 473 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 3: That is clear there's nothing new to. 474 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: Learn about either Donald Trump or President Biden. There is 475 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: no mystery left in our relationship as a people with 476 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: either man. There is no spring of discovery ahead. There 477 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: is no Boujelai of delight right about the whimsies of 478 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: their personalities yet yet to be discovered. It is, it 479 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: is so in a two team league, how do they 480 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: account for the fact that they're losing to that team? 481 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: That's who you're losing to. Right, They're not losing to 482 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln, They're not losing to John Kennedy, they're not 483 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: losing to Ronald Reagan, if they're not losing to Franklin Roosevelt. 484 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: They're losing by nine points to Donald Trump in twenty 485 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: twenty three. But I have a simple question, what's the 486 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: explanation for that? Because they've done everything right, because the 487 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: American people are crazy. Tell me what the rationale for 488 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: that is? 489 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 4: Well, look, I think one Trump is winning in a 490 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 4: series of recent polls. I don't think they're all plus nine. 491 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 4: It's going to be closer than that. But here are 492 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 4: two responses. One, Kamala Harris channeled this on Sixty Minutes 493 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 4: on Sunday. 494 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: She did an interview with Bill Whitaker. 495 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 4: It was fine, but she said what the Biden White 496 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 4: House does quite frequently, which is, voters might not be 497 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 4: psyched about Joe Biden, but once we are able to 498 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 4: communicate what we've accomplished, then they'll come around, and then 499 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 4: the choice will be evident. By the way, Steve, I 500 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 4: think that is very important for younger voters who don't 501 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 4: like either political party, institutions whatever, are very met, not 502 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 4: just Biden but the Democratic Party. But they do care 503 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 4: about climate change and guns and the economy and the 504 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 4: administration's efforts on student loans, and so Kamla was saying, 505 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 4: once we are able to remind people of that, they 506 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 4: will come home. And they also point to abortion as 507 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 4: a big topic here, and they cite the twenty twenty 508 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 4: two midterms where this gets back to the approval rating thing. 509 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 4: Biden's approval rating sucked, but in the key states and 510 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 4: the key center races, Democrats showed up because abortion was 511 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 4: on the ballot. And by the way, we'll see next Tuesday, 512 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 4: earn a couple of tuesdays. If that's true in Virginia, 513 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 4: which is like, you know, a swing state on the 514 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 4: state level, because that whole race is about abortion. So 515 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 4: we'll see if that issue is still resonant. If it's not, 516 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 4: that could be a warning sign for Democrats setting into 517 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 4: next year. But a big difference with twenty twenty two 518 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 4: is that turnout. The turnout expectations between the two parties 519 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 4: have really changed since like two thousand and eight when 520 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 4: we were out there. So in a midterm election, used 521 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 4: to be Republicans would blow Democrats away on turnout because 522 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 4: Democrats rely on low propensity voters who don't really show 523 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 4: up in midterm elections and off your elections. But Republicans 524 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: have these older voters who pay attention and they vote 525 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 4: every single election. That's kind of flipped on its head now. 526 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 4: So Democrats are really engaged post twenty sixteen, like post Trump, 527 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 4: like they seem to understand the stakes and so they 528 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 4: show up. And that's helped by the fact that people 529 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 4: forget like, yeah, Trump is a Republican and is winning 530 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 4: the Republican primary and has a lot of Republican support, 531 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 4: but there are a lot of people who like Trump 532 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 4: who like weren't like typical Republican voters before twenty sixteen. 533 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 4: And so when Trump is on the ballot, he has 534 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 4: more people showing up in a presidential year, so the 535 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 4: turnout expectations are kind of flipped. So I think one 536 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 4: reason a lot of those Republicans lost in twenty twenty 537 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 4: two and Democrats won, it wasn't just abortion. It was 538 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 4: also that people stayed home. Trump supporters stayed home because 539 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 4: he wasn't on the ballot. They're not going to show 540 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 4: up and vote for like Blake Masters, like as much 541 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 4: as he's trumpy, he's not Donald Trump himself. A lot 542 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 4: of Trump supporters like Donald Trump and Jesus in that order, 543 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 4: and like no one else. 544 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 3: And so. 545 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 4: That's a problem next year because he'll be on the 546 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 4: ballot and he again, he will always have that forty 547 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 4: six to forty. 548 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: Seven percent feeling. 549 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 4: Democrats have to have somebody who can get above that 550 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 4: number and a little bit higher because of the electoral college. 551 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 4: And you know, right now Biden is the only guy 552 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 4: and your and your boy Dean. But it's it's pretty scary. 553 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 4: I mean, this is like this, it's going to turn 554 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 4: on a few you know, ten, twenty thirty forty. 555 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 2: Thousand votes in the series of states. 556 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: And I do want to, by the way, call out 557 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 4: which she said earlier about the Trump campaign like your 558 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 4: list as a journalist who deals with the Trump campaign, 559 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 4: and I didn't like, actually deal with them that much 560 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 4: the last time around in Park because they were so 561 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 4: like hand handed and all over the place. You know, 562 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 4: Chris Lasovita is there now. 563 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, Donald Trump. 564 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 4: Is facing over ninety criminal counts, but his campaign is 565 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 4: much more well oiled. And I know this sounds a 566 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 4: crazy thing to say about Donald Trump, and by the way, 567 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 4: he said all kinds of like inflammatory and racist and 568 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 4: you know, things that inspire violence lately, but it's more disciplined. 569 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 4: It is more disciplined. And they kicked the shit out 570 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 4: of Rondasantis and like out of the gate, and they 571 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 4: just it's a better campaign than it was. 572 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty. 573 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 4: To answer your question, it is. It's going to be 574 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 4: a razor's edge election, I think. And Democrats better hope 575 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 4: and they that again it'll be a choice. They just 576 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 4: need to communicate their issues better. But this also gets 577 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 4: back to the stuff we're talking at the very beginning 578 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 4: of this podcast, how do you communicate the Chips Act 579 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 4: or how do you communicate your climate investments in the 580 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: hardest environment in world history to get a message out, 581 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 4: You know, it is so hard to distribute a message 582 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 4: in this environment. And there's the old Roger Ayle's famous 583 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 4: saying the orchestra pit theory of politics. You know, you 584 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 4: have two candidates on a stage. One candidate says I 585 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 4: have a solution for Middle East piece the other candidate 586 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 4: falls in the orchestra pit. Which one is the press 587 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 4: going to cover the gaff? You know, Hunter Biden. You know, 588 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 4: it's just like there's so many distractions. People are on TikTok, 589 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 4: people are on Netflix, people are on WhatsApp. It's just 590 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 4: like people don't know Joe Biden's accomplishments, and it's very 591 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 4: hard to get that message out there in today's environment. 592 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the accomplishments. And in fact they're 593 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: very considerable. I drove across the country with my son 594 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: this summer and you're in some of the national parks 595 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: and you see and you hike on the trails that 596 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: were made during the New Deal by the CCC, right, 597 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: and you see the legacy. You drive across the country. 598 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: You kind of recognize the incredibleness right of the interstate 599 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: highway system. None of this existed right in the nineteen forties. 600 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: It was built in the nineteen fifties. It was transformative. 601 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: Joe Biden is going to have as significant a legacy 602 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: of infrastructure in building the modern country that exists thirty 603 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: years from now as eisenhowerd does for the building of 604 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: modern America in nineteen fifties. 605 00:39:59,160 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 3: There is there. 606 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: There's no question about that. It is a titanic achievement. 607 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: We finally had infrastructure Week in America. And someday people 608 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: are going to look and say, who built that road, 609 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: who built that bridge? Right when did this be? And 610 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: the answer is going to be President Biden. That being said, 611 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: voters do not throw ticker tape parades for their politicians 612 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: for doing the things that they promised to do in 613 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: the last election. They want to know what you're going 614 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: to do. 615 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 3: In the next election. 616 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: Now, there's a theory of economics that is really the 617 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: only issue that matters in the assessment of an economy 618 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: on behalf of the American people is the correlation between 619 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: wages and prices. And right now, you know, there's a 620 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: huge sensibility that everything is unaffordable. 621 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 3: And so the modern era of political. 622 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:21,839 Speaker 1: Campaigning began in eighteen ninety six. And I've said this, 623 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: I believe this the biggest mistake off the line by 624 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: a presidential campaign seeking reelection ever is branding this economy bidnomics. 625 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 3: So the vice president is. 626 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: Talking about, well, you'll find out when we start talking 627 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: about our accomplishments what they are. 628 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 3: As if the White. 629 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: House couldn't have started talking about them last month. But 630 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: the accomplishment in the eyes of the American people is 631 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: the achievement of Bidenomics, which the Biden campaign itself tattooed 632 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: onto the President's forehead, and really the most inexplicable of 633 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: ways that in my view, would never have happened if 634 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: someone out there ever would have talked to somebody who 635 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: lives in America outside of the Beltway. 636 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the economy is really confusing right now, 637 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 4: not just for regular people but for experts, like we 638 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,239 Speaker 4: don't know how to talk about it. 639 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 2: By the way, I think a lot. 640 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 4: Of political journalists like don't come from like economic or 641 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 4: business backgrounds, and you, frankly like a lot of the 642 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 4: best economics correspondents out there aren't the ones covering presidential campaigns. 643 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 4: I'm sure you've saw that a lot. Man. I remember 644 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 4: that from when the economy collapsed, when I was out 645 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 4: on the cane like I was. 646 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't CNN's only. 647 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 4: Reporter on the presdential campaign, but I was like a 648 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 4: twenty six year old kid covering you know, credit default 649 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 4: swaps and how they're like tanking them. How was it marketing. 650 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,240 Speaker 4: I didn't understand that stuff. 651 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, me either. 652 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I'd never heard the word before. I mean, 653 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: I was thirty eight years old. I was running a 654 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: presidential campaign, and you know, I thought I was worldly. 655 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: You know, I thought I knew things about the economy. 656 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: And I'll distinctly remember that the economy collapsed on the 657 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: day that John McCain just coincidentally was meeting with his 658 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: economics team in New York for a photo opportunity event. 659 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: Mitt Romney, Meg Whitman, all these people were in the room, 660 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: captains of industry in Wall Street, and none of them 661 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: had to handle on what was happening. I mean, they 662 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: were as oblivious as you and I were. And that 663 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: was the defining moment of my political career in the 664 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: sense of I looked around and I was like, all 665 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: of the experts have absolutely no clue what's happening. They 666 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: didn't see it coming. We're in the middle of this 667 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: live event. Like politically, in that moment, it ended the 668 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: McCain campaign, right, It had no chance after that. And 669 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,399 Speaker 1: I was very cognizant of that, you know, in the 670 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: in the in that moment of time, as a realist, 671 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: and I guess that's it's the surrealism of this moment 672 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: that's very that's very bizarre sociologically in an unprecedented way. 673 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: While I have you here, in the last couple of minutes, 674 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: you talked about gen z I have My kids are 675 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: gen z Ers, I have. I have a couple in college, 676 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: one younger one. They have a different sensibility, to say 677 00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: the least. You are a bonafide millennial, right, I'm a 678 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: bonafide gen x or right. For everybody watching, I just 679 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,759 Speaker 1: it just I find it very disturbing that you have 680 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: some gray hair right right now. It's not making me 681 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: feel good about myself, you know, on a number of fronts. 682 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: But I you know, one of my I taught at 683 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago for a semester in one of 684 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: my outstanding students wound up working for you like a 685 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: true like superstar, like genius, one of the great people 686 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: I've ever like you know, met in my life. You're 687 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,399 Speaker 1: really connected to kind of the this generation and it's 688 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: and its pulse tell us about who they are. 689 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 4: I love that you ask me that question. And by 690 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 4: the way, like like within millennials, there's old millennials and 691 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 4: young millennials. I'm an old millennial, but yeah, I mean. 692 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 3: You're on the gen X boundary line. Yes, we're we're like, 693 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 3: we like these ones the best, right. Yeah. 694 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 4: I remember what it was like to have nothing to 695 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 4: do and just get in the car and be like, 696 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 4: I guess I'll listen to. 697 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 2: Some CDs and just drive around. And now we don't 698 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 2: have that with the social media. 699 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 4: No, I don't claim to speak for all of gen Z, 700 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 4: but I do, because of my Snapchat job, spend a 701 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 4: lot of time thinking about gen Z voters. Look, I 702 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 4: think the places they spend their time are Instagram, Snapchat, 703 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 4: and TikTok. 704 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,879 Speaker 2: Those are the three things. You know. Twitter is not in. 705 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 4: That conversation, by the way, anywhere close they As I 706 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 4: mentioned before in John de la Volpe at Harvard it 707 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 4: has does the Harvard Youath Pole twice a year. Very 708 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 4: much an expert on this stuff. He has a great 709 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 4: substack you should read. They are different from millennials and 710 00:46:55,239 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 4: that this is interesting. Millennials care and cared about changing 711 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 4: the world and being very. 712 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 2: Public about their. 713 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 4: Political inclinations, changing the workplace, lots of things. Gen Z 714 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 4: is very much self interested. 715 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 2: In a different way. 716 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 4: And by the way, I don't mean self interested in 717 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 4: terms of like narcissistic and vain. They came up in 718 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 4: a world they became politically sentient, in a world defined 719 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 4: by Black Lives matter, Donald Trump, political violence, like a 720 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 4: lot of young people actually think we're going to see 721 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 4: a civil war in our lifetimes, in their lifetimes, and 722 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,879 Speaker 4: so whereas I came up in like the Iraq War 723 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 4: era in Barack Obama, and in a world, in a 724 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 4: political world where there were two parties and sometimes it 725 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 4: could reach bipartisan agreement and there would be gangs in 726 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 4: the Senate that would like maybe work on immigration. They've 727 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 4: never seen that. And so their world is on a 728 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 4: political level, a lot of good versus evil, oppressor versus oppressed. 729 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,400 Speaker 4: Social justice is very important. Race and identity politics is 730 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 4: very important. We're seeing this play out and a lot 731 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 4: of the protests around Israel and the war in Gaza. 732 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 4: Younger people are way more inclined to support the Palestinians 733 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 4: than older age groups are. 734 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 2: But they see. 735 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 4: Politics through protest and conflict in their personal lives. And 736 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,319 Speaker 4: this is where I get to the self interested part. 737 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 4: They care about their friends, their family, their bank account, 738 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 4: getting a job. They're less interested, in other words, in 739 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 4: waving a flag in their everyday lives for a political 740 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 4: issue because they see a world where politics doesn't really work. 741 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 4: Climate change, gone by violence, access to the economy, and 742 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:08,360 Speaker 4: reproductive rights are generally speaking, their top four issues. The 743 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,120 Speaker 4: Biden campaign again is trying to make this their reelection campaign. 744 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 4: At least it's is targeted toward young people around They're 745 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 4: fighting for young people to have access to the economy, 746 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 4: access to reproductive rights, and Republicans want to take those 747 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 4: things away. And so the bottom line is that they 748 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,680 Speaker 4: need issues to get activated. They're not going to get 749 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,399 Speaker 4: fired up for individual candidates. They're not going to get 750 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,720 Speaker 4: fired up just because there's a D next to someone's 751 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,879 Speaker 4: name on a ballot. They really feel like they need 752 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,320 Speaker 4: to be pulled into the process because they don't feel 753 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 4: like they're impacted on their everyday lives a lot by 754 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 4: the traditional political process. And again that's a problem for 755 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,839 Speaker 4: Biden and Harris in twenty twenty because young people say 756 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 4: over and over and over again they don't feel like 757 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 4: they can ever be able to afford a house, and 758 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 4: interest rates are too high, they can't even get by, 759 00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,719 Speaker 4: wages aren't keeping up with inflation, et cetera, et ce. 760 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 4: So the economy isn't just an issue for like old people, 761 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,560 Speaker 4: like young people want jobs, income, healthcare orlin k that 762 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 4: they really want that, because older generations add that and 763 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 4: they don't feel like they're ever going to. 764 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 3: Uh. Peter. 765 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: The name of this podcast is the Warning, and so 766 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:24,439 Speaker 1: we've started a h ending of this where I ask 767 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: the people good enough to come on to give their 768 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: warning whatever it may be that you'd like to talk about, 769 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,239 Speaker 1: you know, to the good folks who are gonna who 770 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: are gonna listen about this. There's there's a lot to 771 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: be worried about. And you're a person who's seen a 772 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: lot about American politics and you know, and a lot 773 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: about a lot of other things as well. So I 774 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 1: will throw it over to you to close, and just 775 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: before you do, thank you so much for joining me 776 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: the Warning community for a great conversation today. 777 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,439 Speaker 2: Thank you, yeah, thanks Steve. 778 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 4: I think my Warning gets to something you said earlier 779 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 4: in this conversation, which is, I'll use the example of 780 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,799 Speaker 4: that Iowa trip. I that most of my career as 781 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,320 Speaker 4: a reporter, I didn't cover the White House, I didn't 782 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 4: cover Capitol Hill. I was living in DC, but I 783 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,200 Speaker 4: was always on airplanes, travel around the country in state capitals. 784 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 4: You know, I developed. I think I like to think 785 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 4: an ear or you know, just listening to voters. That's 786 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 4: something I care about. I think the cultural and economic 787 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 4: differences between different parts of our country have. 788 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 2: Never been greater. 789 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 4: And I don't mean, like necessarily the political differences, but 790 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,400 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, when I went to the Iowa 791 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,359 Speaker 4: State Fair, I was walking around with my camera crew, 792 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,360 Speaker 4: We're all like people from LA. We stood out like 793 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,440 Speaker 4: short thumbs, like the clothes we're wearing, the pattoos are different. 794 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 4: It's just like I have been to Iowa thirty forty 795 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 4: times in my life. I just I've never felt maybe 796 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 4: you know, I live in LA. I lived in New York, 797 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 4: I live in lived in DC. But my family's also 798 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 4: from the South, like my grandma's is from Mississippi. Like 799 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 4: I've spent a lot of time traveling. I care about 800 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 4: I do care about Red States, And I just felt like, man, 801 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 4: these people and those people are never gonna be at 802 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 4: the same bar. You know, sports is the only place 803 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 4: where they're gonna, you know, hang out together. So I 804 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,880 Speaker 4: just I just feel like there's an increasing distance between 805 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 4: the power elite in this country and regular people and 806 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 4: people that live in zip codes where the incomes are 807 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,080 Speaker 4: slightly lower and the news diets are different and expectations 808 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,840 Speaker 4: are different, and traveling. I've always said there should be 809 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 4: people in college have studied abroad, you go to like 810 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,840 Speaker 4: I went to South Africa, people go to like Italy, 811 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,319 Speaker 4: your Bane or whatever. I think people there should be 812 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 4: some sort of like AmeriCorps Peace Corps program where like 813 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,319 Speaker 4: you go, like red safe people go to Blue States 814 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 4: and blue stack people Red States. I just think in 815 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,280 Speaker 4: person conversations would make things a lot healthier. 816 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: I think we're I think we're en rude to that. 817 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of this warning community frequently 818 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: asked what it is that I read. I read puck 819 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: News and I encourage all of you to subscribe. It 820 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 1: is a terrific, terrific publication, and it is there you 821 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 1: will find Peter Hanby and a great group of journalists 822 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,960 Speaker 1: who will help inform you about what's really happening in 823 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,840 Speaker 1: the world. Peter, thank you for being here today. 824 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:45,880 Speaker 2: Thanks Steve enjoying New Hampshire