1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, Nancy Grace here. Let me introduce you to 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: a podcast I think you will love, The Megan Kelly Show. 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: The Megan Kelly Show features open, honest, and sometimes provocative, 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: that's one way to put it, conversations with some of 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: of the day. Give it a listen and follow The 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: Megan Kelly Show wherever you get your podcast. You may 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: love the guest, you may hate the guest, but I'm 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: telling you the Megan Kelly Show is the must listen. 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: Here's Megan Kelly now. 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show, live on Serious XM 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 2: Channel one eleven, every weekday at the East. 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone on Megan Kelly. 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show. I'm very excited for 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 2: what we're about to bring you. It's now been five 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 2: hundred and ninety days since four University of Idaho students 17 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: were found savagely murdered. Five hundred and ninety days and 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: still no closure for the families of the young victims. 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: There's not even a trial date set at this point. 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: How can that be? Best Selling author and journalist Howard 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: Bloom has been reporting on this tragedy since day one 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: like no other. I mean, if you read nothing about 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: this case, read anything. Howard Bloom writes, he's been writing 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: for Airmail, which is Graydon Carter's new online publication. 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: It's doing really well, thanks in large part to Howard. 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: You may remember we featured Howard's reporting in our special 27 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: series on the murders back in December. You can go 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: back and listen to all five parts, episodes six eighty 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: eight through six ninety two. Howard has done more fantastic 30 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: reporting on this case for a new book just out today. 31 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: It's called When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: the Idaho Student Murders. 33 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: Again. 34 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: It's out today. You can get it right now. I've 35 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: read it, both read it covered and I listened to 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: the audio too, and it's already rising up the Amazon charts. 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: It's going to be number one, zeroed out in my mind, 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: and it'll be on the Time bestseller list too. 39 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: Welcome back to the show, Howard Bloom. This is a great, 40 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: great book. I'm so glad you wrote it. 41 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: Nobody's been reporting like you, so you put it. 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 4: It's always easy to use it. 43 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: It's not like it's not a doorstop book, so it's 44 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: like manageable. You can read this at the beach in 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: a day or two, and I recommend it because you 46 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 2: learn a ton about the case. Let's start with the title, 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 2: what do you mean a Requiem for the Idaho student murders? 48 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: What was in mind when you were writing that? 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 5: Well, something that's been lost in the whole coverage of 50 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 5: this case and trying to get to the bottom of 51 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 5: a perplexing mystery. It's the lives that were lost, these 52 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 5: four young kids, four young children. As a father of 53 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 5: three children, the art has to go out to them, 54 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 5: and I wanted to honor them. 55 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 4: I wanted to honor the lives that they lived. 56 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 5: Xana Carnudle, one of the young women who was killed 57 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 5: at her high school graduation, carried a mortar board with 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 5: her and it said on the underside, for the lives 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 5: I will change. 60 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 4: For the lives I will change. 61 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 5: And as that struck me all the time as I 62 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 5: was writing this book. I even had it on a 63 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 5: note above my desk. You know, these children will never 64 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 5: have the opportunity to have changed these lives, and that 65 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 5: affected me and I wanted to try to do their 66 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 5: memory justice. 67 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's awful. What do you think about it? 68 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: I know just the other day they celebrated. I guess 69 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: a better word is marked Kayla Goansolvus's what would have 70 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: been her twenty third birthday. I'll show you the tape. 71 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: There was a balloon release my friends and family of hers. 72 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: This young girl's been dead now going on two years. 73 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: She should be celebrating her post college you first career 74 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: and time with friends. And I was struck by what 75 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: the family said when they did the balloon release, talking 76 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: about what they think of when they think of Kayleie 77 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: Jade Day, which is what they're calling it, which is 78 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: how she liked to enjoy lunch with a friend or 79 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: family member. They hope people will do things like this, 80 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: planning vacations or holidays, trying out a new recipe, treating 81 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: oneself to mimosas and appetizers at a local restaurant, embarking 82 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: on a new hiking adventure, witnessing the sunrise, reconnecting with 83 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: distant friends or family, and spreading kindness at a favorite 84 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: drive through. 85 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: That jive's completely howard. 86 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: With what we know of this young woman, how joyful 87 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: she appeared in every picture, her tight best friendship with 88 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 2: another victim, Mattie Mogan, and just how these girls were 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: so young and had it all in front of them 90 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: when their lives were taken. 91 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 5: And you mentioned the families, how they're trying to come 92 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 5: to terms with this, but there really are no survivors 93 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 5: in this story. This is a story about victims, and 94 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 5: as you pointed out here, production you know, there still 95 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 5: is no sense of closure for these families. The trial 96 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 5: dregs on and on and on. The delays are cool. 97 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 5: It's a cruelty to the families. 98 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 3: It's amazing. 99 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 2: I don't understand hard to be so into this case 100 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: and still not even have a trial date. There's going 101 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: to be hearing on June twenty seventh where they're going 102 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: to try to get one again. But this defense attorney, 103 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: whose name is Ann Taylor, has been doing a very 104 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: good job of convincing the judge whose last name is Judge, 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: so he's judged judge to continue delaying. It's frustrating for 106 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 2: those of us who want to see justice take its course. 107 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: All right, let's get into let's get into the substance 108 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: of the book. Because you've I mean, will never be 109 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: able to scratch the surface here because there's a ton 110 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: of new stuff in here, and just for what it's 111 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: worth audience, the way Howard writes is absolutely it makes 112 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 2: you feel delirious with interest because he just chooses the 113 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 2: right adjective and he's very transparent about where he or 114 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: he's using his own opinion and where he's reporting facts, 115 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: but has a way of telling the story that is 116 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: very illuminating. And I think that's one of my thing 117 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: the favorite things I love about the book. When the 118 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: Night Comes Falling by Howard bloom Blum. One of the 119 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: big pieces that I learned in this Now I don't 120 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: know how you got it, and I won't ask how 121 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: you got it is you tell us about the conversation 122 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: the suspect who's under arrest, Brian Colberger now for committing 123 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: these four murders, had with his father, Michael, who had 124 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: flown from the Poconos, Pennsylvania, all the way across country 125 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 2: to Washington State to pick up his son some I 126 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: don't know a month. It was a month right after 127 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: the murders. The murders took place November thirteenth, twenty twenty two. 128 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: The dad flew out there about a month later to 129 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: get the sun and drive back cross country to the 130 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: Poconos with his kid, who was a teaching assistant at 131 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: Wash You and also was getting his PhD in criminology there, 132 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 2: and you walk us through their exchange. What was on 133 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: the dad's mind, what was on the son's mind? Who's 134 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: now in prison awaiting truck. So talk to us a 135 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: little bit about that. 136 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 4: Well, here's this father who makes this trip. 137 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 5: His father is sixty eight years old, and he decides 138 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 5: to go out to Washington State to then two days 139 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 5: later turn around completely and drive across country with his son. 140 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 5: He does this because he's nervous, he's anxious, he is 141 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 5: connecting the dots in his mind. He knows his son 142 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 5: is a disturbed young man. He knows his son has 143 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 5: had problems. He knows his son also lives about ten 144 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 5: miles away where four young women four three young women 145 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 5: and one young man were killed. And he knows his 146 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 5: son look has a white hondaei Alan trip and that 147 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 5: just happens to be the car, the model of the 148 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 5: car the police are looking for. 149 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 4: So he goes out there. 150 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 5: I'm not sure what he's going to find, and immediately 151 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 5: his son is in a mood and he's seen Brian's 152 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 5: moods before, and he knows to sort of go with 153 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: the flow. He doesn't want to anger him. But as 154 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 5: he spends time with Brian, he's very is if he's 155 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 5: following footsteps, and these footsteps suddenly become bloody footsteps, and 156 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 5: he realizes, oh my gosh, my son might very well 157 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 5: be involved in this. And yet he also refuses, refuses 158 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 5: to make this leap as any parent might. They can't 159 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 5: put this on his son. So in a way, Michael 160 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 5: Coburg or the father, is a victim too. He's one 161 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 5: of the characters in this story. And I pread my 162 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 5: structure of the book in many ways around this trip. 163 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: It's sort of, you know, like Homer's Odyssey, a long voice, 164 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 5: which is going to have a lot of traumatic events. 165 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 5: And here, as the fathers is coming, the fears are 166 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 5: coming closer and closer into focus in the father's mind. 167 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 5: The car is stopped once by a state police actually 168 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 5: a sheriff's deputy in Indiana, and then nine minutes later 169 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 5: by another deputy, a state trooper, and the father is 170 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 5: now realizing, perhaps this is it, Perhaps everything I was 171 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 5: thinking about is true, and it becomes clearer and clearer. 172 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 5: And then when the car is stopped, what's the first 173 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 5: thing that father blurts out to the law enforcement people 174 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 5: who are stopping the car. He talks about a shooting 175 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 5: in the Washington State University that happened earlier that day. 176 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 4: Is what's on his mind. 177 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 5: All this violence out in the West is coming together, 178 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 5: and he feels something benevolent is happening. He begins to 179 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 5: fear as they makes this cross country journal journey, he 180 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 5: begins to fear with greater certainty that his son is 181 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 5: involved in it, and he doesn't quite know what to do. 182 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: It's something to consider that the father too, of course, 183 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: now in retrospect and you think about it, the father 184 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: too was suspicious of his son. You know, we hear 185 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: that all these facts, knowing that Brian Colberger was later 186 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: arrested for these crimes, and then you hear that his 187 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: father had gotten him at college, was driving him back 188 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: home the cops, well not the cops, but the FBI. 189 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 3: This is one of the points you make in the book. 190 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: Was already on to him, was aware was following, But 191 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: of course the father would have suspicions. Of course, the 192 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: father knew about the quadruple murder right, you know, ten 193 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: miles from where his son was a TA and getting 194 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: his PhD. He's got to know the son is weird, 195 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: to just put it very mildly, he's off, very off socially. 196 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: And we heard the detail prior to the book about 197 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: how Brian the son re routed the trip home. They 198 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: had something all set the shortest distance between two lines 199 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: is a straight one right and two points is a 200 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: straight line, and how Brian had changed it suddenly he 201 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: wanted it to go a much more circuitous route home. 202 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: But you really lay some details in there about how 203 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: angry he was about the dad pushing back on that 204 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: at all, and how the father had to handle him 205 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: so gingerly he knew he was dealing with the powder 206 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: keg of a man. 207 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 5: It's also interesting that this was not the father his 208 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 5: first trip out with his son. He came out when 209 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 5: Brian registered at the beginning of the term. He made 210 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 5: the cross country trip with him. Now the father is 211 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 5: sixty eight years old, the famili has had financial problems, 212 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 5: They've been bankrupt twice and went to bankruptcy proceedings, and 213 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 5: yet he feels he still has to go with a 214 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 5: twenty eight year old young man to be with him 215 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 5: on this trip, even when he's registering. He doesn't want 216 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 5: his son to be alone at the crossroads. And what 217 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 5: does his father do when he's out there? He goes 218 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 5: to one of Brian's neighbors and says, you know, my 219 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 5: son has a hard time making friends. 220 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: Can you help him out? 221 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 5: And this neighbor invites Brian to a pool party, which 222 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 5: I talked about in the book, And that's really Brian's 223 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 5: first trip to Moscow, Idaho. 224 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: The conversation they have relating to and the revelations about 225 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: Brian Kohlberger's problems in his TA position are absolutely fascinating. 226 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: So it was far worse for Brian Colberger in the 227 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: weeks leading up to the murders of these four University 228 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: of Idaho students on November thirteenth, and also Brian's returned 229 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: to the Poconos in early December with his dad. Then 230 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: I knew until I read your book. He tell us 231 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: about the problems Brian was having in the THA role 232 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 2: and about the fact that he revealed a lot of 233 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: what he did know to the dad. 234 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: Would you have to begin with I think to understand 235 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 5: how traumatic this was for Brian is where he came 236 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 5: up from. He was an academic success story. He reinvented 237 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 5: his life. He came from being a heroin addict at 238 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 5: a junior college, gets into a graduate from Tassau, and 239 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 5: then he gets into a first great graduate program at 240 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 5: a Washington State university, and he's on his way to 241 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 5: be a doctorate. 242 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: And then in the course of his first term as 243 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 4: a teaching. 244 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 5: Assistant, the students start to complain they don't like the 245 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: way he's treating them. They feel he's treating the women 246 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 5: in a chauvinistic way. He always has to have the 247 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 5: last say he's marking too strictly. And the professor who's 248 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 5: handling his course he's working for, Professor John Snyder, pulls 249 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 5: in in for a meeting, and what does Brian do. 250 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 5: He blows his top. He really doesn't want to discuss it, 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 5: but he exacerbates matters. And the professor, who was a 252 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 5: lawyer before coming to teach at Washington State, starts making 253 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 5: a paper trail, sending letters to the administration that we 254 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 5: might have a problem here whatever. Finally, on November second, 255 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 5: just eleven days before the murders, he's given sort of 256 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 5: an ultimatum by the authorities of Washington State. Get your 257 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 5: act together or you're going to lose your teaching assistant job. Now, 258 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 5: for Brian to lose this, it's not just a job. 259 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 5: It's the tuition that allows him to go to graduate school. 260 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 5: It's the opportunity to reinvent his life from the hard 261 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 5: scrabble life he was leading as a youth in the 262 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 5: Poconos to become Professor Brian cober to become a forensic psychologist. 263 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 5: And this was a shock. Who is already it's a 264 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 5: tentative system. I mean, Brian is always living every day 265 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 5: on tenderhooks, and now it becomes even worse. So how 266 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 5: he's while he's driving across country with his father, he 267 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 5: begins to reveal and this would related to me by 268 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 5: people who have spoken with Brian's father to Michael Koberger, 269 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 5: that he's in a bit of trouble. So he describes 270 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 5: it at the university. But Brian tells his father, I'm 271 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 5: going to have the last laugh. You know, they can't 272 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 5: just get rid of me. I'm going to be able 273 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 5: to have a disciplinary hearing and I will make my 274 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 5: case and I will be able to continue teaching, and 275 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 5: I believe until the moment he's arrested, he still believes 276 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 5: that he's going to get away with things and he's 277 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 5: going to be back teaching in the next semester at 278 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 5: Washington State University. 279 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 4: He believes that he still is. 280 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 5: The smartest person in the room and he can out 281 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 5: talk these professors because in his heart, he feels he's 282 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 5: done nothing wrong. 283 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 4: He's always right. 284 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: He's trying to spin it to his dad as if 285 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: these are weak need students who just don't like tough grading, 286 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: and you know, they're they're basically just snowflakes. And I'm 287 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: a tough grader and that's the problem. And meanwhile, he 288 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: was it looked like he was harassing a couple of 289 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: the young female students. He had zero tolerance for conflicting viewpoints. 290 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: He was disdainful of these students. I mean, all the 291 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: things that you would expect if this guy really is 292 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: a quadruple murderer. He wasn't perfectly normal in the classroom. 293 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: He was odd, to put it mildly, And these students 294 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: actually spoke up on Moss to the professor Snyder, saying 295 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with this guy. And Snyder when he 296 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: started to kick the tires seems to have found You're right, 297 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: and that's. 298 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 5: Just Brian's behavior did not go unnoticed, and the students 299 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 5: that he was teaching picked up on it. There was 300 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 5: something really off, something really wrong, and he couldn't hide it. 301 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 5: And this is what he was living with. He wanted 302 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 5: to be something else, He wanted to fit in. He 303 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 5: wanted to he reinvented his life, and he wanted to 304 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 5: live this life he once had imagined. But he also 305 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 5: was intelligent enough to realize that this was an impossibility. 306 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 4: To him, he could not make. 307 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 5: This complete leap, and that was the tortured state that 308 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 5: he was living in. 309 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 2: So most of us, if we were if our tuition 310 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: were getting paid by this school there at the school 311 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: liking us. Was the difference between us being able to 312 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: get the PhD and not because they can can't cut 313 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 2: your scholarship at any time. Would shape up if we 314 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: were sat down by our professor, never mind the department 315 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 2: head and said and told shape up, we're going to 316 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: ship you out. 317 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 3: He didn't do that. 318 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: Professor Snyder called him in, and you write about how 319 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: the Snyder he was astonished that Colberger started arguing with 320 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: him as opposed to just saying I'm sorry, I'll do better, 321 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 2: I'll resolve. The department head seems to have had a 322 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: similar experience with him, where instead of being apologetic or 323 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: falling on his sword, he was irascible. And then ultimately 324 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: when they reached sort of in a chord, Okay, he's 325 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: going to try to do better and keep this position. 326 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 2: You write about his self sabotage about how he couldn't 327 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 2: do it. 328 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 5: He was just incapable of it at that point where 329 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 5: he thought maybe he's fooled them that he can stay on. 330 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 5: He then became more aggressive to some of the women 331 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 5: in the class, and at one point one of the 332 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 5: young women in his class say related to the college 333 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 5: authorities that he followed her to hit her car, and 334 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 5: he acted in she said, quote an aggressive unquote matter, 335 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 5: And that was just the destrawer that broke the administration back. 336 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 5: They said, we've got to get rid of this guy, 337 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 5: and they sent him a letter. The problem is when 338 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 5: the letter reached his home in Washington State University, he 339 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 5: was already on this car trip across America with his father, 340 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 5: and he was lecturing his father, or hectoring his father 341 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 5: how he was going to ultimately be able to go 342 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 5: back because he was smarter than they were, and he 343 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 5: would have a hearing, and he would argue his case 344 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 5: so successfully that they would have to bow to his 345 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 5: superior intelligence. 346 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: In the midst of all of this, he allegedly committed 347 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: for murders. That's what's so fascinating about the book and 348 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: the story in general. Again, the books called When the 349 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: Night Comes Falling by Howard bloom Blum. He's going through 350 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 2: all of this, and you're getting a real profile of 351 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: who we believe is a killer and what he's going 352 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: through in his private and personal life. His slow downward 353 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: spiral in his ta position, his inability to control his 354 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: anger and defensiveness even to his own peril, like he 355 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: knows what's going to happen if he continues pissing off 356 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 2: his department chair and so on. They've made it very 357 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: clear he just can't stop himself. As you write, he 358 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: unleashed the full force of his considerable fury, and that 359 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: was ultimately with the women and so on. When the 360 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: department sent him that note, the department chair send him 361 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: an email, I'm reading from your book here requesting that 362 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 2: they meet, you write, this was most likely a summons 363 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: to the gallows, but before this execution could take place, 364 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: Brian quite effectively placed the noose around his own neck. 365 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: Several of his female students reported to the department that 366 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 2: Brian was making them feel uncomfortable. In fact, the CREEPYTA 367 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: had even followed one woman to her car. Now there 368 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 2: was nothing further to discuss. Brian's TA job was over. 369 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: Mister Kolberger, I am writing this letter to formally inform 370 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: you of the termination of your teaching assistant with the 371 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: Department of Criminal Justice in Criminology, effective December thirty first, 372 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. But this, as you point out, was 373 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: never received by him. He had already left the campus 374 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: and was driving back to Pennsylvania. But Howard, by the 375 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 2: time she sent this, if the prosecution is correct in 376 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 2: this case, he had gone from having troubles in his 377 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 2: TA job to murdering four students in cold Blood at 378 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: the neighboring university, to back in with his superintendent his 379 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 2: director on whether he could improve his behavior, and then 380 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: pieced out of there back to the Poconotes. 381 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 5: I mean, you can imagine the chaos that was going 382 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 5: on in his internal structure, in his mind and he 383 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 5: was always trying to become something better, and yet every 384 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 5: time he succumbs to who he is. Even on the 385 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 5: nights of the murders, I believe that Coberger was still 386 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 5: not stalking the house, but he was trying to find 387 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 5: the will to cross over that threshold into making the 388 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 5: ideas in his mind become a reality, and he kept 389 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 5: on fighting against it. He would go up towards the 390 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 5: murder house, and then he would drive off up to 391 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 5: the murder house, and then he would drive off. 392 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 4: It was a colossal battle of wills. 393 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 5: And when he finally turns off the key in his 394 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 5: car and parts and makes up his mind, requires his 395 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 5: strength of hercules to do this, but he decided at 396 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 5: this point to give into the demons, and I believe 397 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 5: he grabs the knife, sheaths and parts on the top 398 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 5: of the hill above King Road and starts walking down 399 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 5: on the pole of cross the ground. 400 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: And making his way towards the kitchen door back door 401 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 4: of the house. 402 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: So this is a new way of looking at the evidence. 403 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: I thought this was interesting too. We knew, according to 404 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: the police, that he had cased the house. That's kind 405 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: of how we saw it that this white houndai Landro 406 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: we believe was it still has to be proven, had 407 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: cased the joint three times or so before the actual 408 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 2: moment of the murders, which the cops are putting it. 409 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 3: Around four oh two a m. 410 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: And your theory, having studied this more than any outsider 411 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: you know outside of law enforcement that I know, is 412 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: that it wasn't a casing. That this was a man who, 413 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: other than his heroin addiction, had not led a life 414 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: of violating the law, and was in PhD studies to 415 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: you know, work against criminals and try to understand them 416 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 2: and help law enforcement figuring out whether he could cross 417 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: it in a profound and before and after way. 418 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 5: If he were actually caseing it, he would have noticed 419 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 5: all the cars in the driveway, a house full of people. 420 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 5: He might have wondered if there were people who would 421 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 5: have a physical confrontation with that he couldn't overcome, And. 422 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 4: Also would have noticed the door dash driver coming here. 423 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 5: At four am delivering food to Zena and would have 424 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 5: known that she was probably still awake. I don't think 425 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 5: any of these more reasonable thoughts entered his mind. I 426 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 5: think he was an internal dialogue between Brian and his demons, 427 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 5: and that one was driving him back and forth that 428 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 5: night until he crosses that threshold into complete mania. 429 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 2: The other theory that you reveal in here made a 430 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: lot of headlines is that you believe that this actually 431 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 2: was about one victim. This is something we've all wondered, 432 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: and I apologize to the audience. I should have just 433 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: offered a few details about the crime at the top 434 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: of the hour. I just assume familiarity because our viewers 435 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 2: have heard us cover this so often. But it was 436 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: a murder of four young students at the University of Idaho. 437 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: We believe by this TA slash PhD student at a 438 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: neighboring university, and the four students were two best friends, 439 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: Kaylee and Maddie, who are there on the left in 440 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: the Maddie's up on the shoulders of Kaylee. There in 441 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 2: this picture of all the roommates who lived there, Xaner Kernodle, 442 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: who's over there on Screenwright with her boyfriend Ethan's arm 443 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 2: around her. 444 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 3: Those two were killed. They were on the second floor. 445 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: The two blondes, Kayleye and Maddie were up on the 446 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 2: third floor in a bed together. They were lifelong best friends. 447 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: And these two gals on the left and the right 448 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: were surviving roommates when they were surviving roommates, and the 449 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 2: one Dylan who's on the left would be an eyewitness 450 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: as well. So you believe, just for the viewing audience 451 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: who's watching this with us on YouTube, that Maddie, who 452 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: was on the top of that shoal of Kaylee's shoulders, 453 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: was the target of this attack. 454 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 5: Why when Homberger went to the house, he had no idea. 455 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 5: I believe that Calle was there. He goes in on 456 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 5: the second because Kelly wasn't living in the house really 457 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 5: at that point. She was living up north from Courzalene. 458 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 5: She was just in for the weekend to show off 459 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 5: her new car. He goes in up to the second 460 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 5: floor kitchen sliding door. 461 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 4: If he was intent on just killing, he. 462 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 5: Would have gone into any of the two bedrooms on 463 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 5: the second floor, but he is on a deliberate path. 464 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 5: He makes his way upward and he goes into Maddie's bedroom, 465 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 5: and he then finds that there are two young women there, 466 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 5: two young blond, pretty women, and his only target originally 467 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 5: was Maddie. Kayley tries to back away, she fights back, 468 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: and she becomes a grim, gruesome. 469 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 4: Way collateral damage. 470 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 5: I believe according to the prosecution of the defense, they 471 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 5: both have stated categorically in the courtroom that there's no 472 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 5: evidence of Coburger having any interaction with any of the victims, 473 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 5: either in person or on social media, prior to the killings, 474 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 5: and that Coburger, who was a vegan, went to the 475 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 5: Mad Greek restaurant, which specialized in vegan food in Moscow 476 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 5: and weren't too many plays is to get it, and 477 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 5: he met Maddie, who was a waitress there. He didn't 478 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 5: even have to speak with her. He was a man 479 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 5: who lived by obsessions. Look at his decision to become 480 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 5: a heroin autic and to break it to become the 481 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 5: best criminologist. He did things with extremes, and he became, 482 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 5: for whatever reason, obsessed by her beauty, her luberance, of 483 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 5: her vivaciousness, and he focused on her, and I believe 484 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 5: he went by the house and sometimes saw her. 485 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 4: I believe the house was a party house. 486 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 5: We've all seen the videos of the police coming there 487 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 5: and the kids interacting with them, and there's something, you know, 488 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 5: full of poignancy in those videos, the kids being kids, 489 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 5: the cops being brough Town cops, sort of the dynamic, 490 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 5: the dialectic of how kids and cops interact on a 491 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 5: college campus. But Coburger is outside of this, and it 492 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 5: was a constant rebuke. He had done every thing possible, traveled, 493 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 5: you know, millions of miles in his own mental vision, 494 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 5: from this kid on the periphery of events in high school, 495 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 5: becoming a heroinautic to now being a teaching assistant at 496 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 5: a celebrated university and a celebrating department at that university, 497 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 5: and yet he still couldn't quite get into the thing 498 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 5: of the swing up things. He still was an outsider 499 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 5: and his outside this was a constant insult to him, 500 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 5: and that pushed him, I believe, into what is a 501 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 5: can only be described as a mania to want to 502 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 5: want to feel that he can't live in this world 503 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 5: if these constant redukes to him are going to be 504 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 5: living in it. 505 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 2: Too, that, I mean, it's a stunning theory, and it 506 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it, 507 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: because you're right, Kaylee wasn't even supposed to be there 508 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: that night, Maddie. He did work at this mad Greek restaurant. 509 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: Xanna did too, Xanna Kernodle, who was another one of 510 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: the victims. She was there with her boyfriend, which you know, 511 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: I mean they's been inseparable, inseparable from what we heard. 512 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 2: And he walked past Zanna's bedroom. Did he not howard 513 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: to get to Maddie's room? 514 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 4: He just goes right by. 515 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 5: And I also believe that if Ethan and Xanna had 516 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 5: not come out, I mean Ethan after after the murders, 517 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 5: I hear the noise. Ethan goes out to confront Coburger 518 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 5: and before he can even say anything, Coburger slashes out 519 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 5: with his knife and gets Ethan across the neck. Ethan 520 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 5: is six ' four, an athlete, and he was a 521 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 5: wonderful young man, full of vitality, full of vivaciousness, a 522 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 5: sort of happy go lucky, uh life of the party person, 523 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 5: and Colberger snuffs him out. 524 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: Then Zena up speaks up. 525 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: Or starts crying, and Coburger, in one chilling moment, says 526 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 5: to her, don't worry, I'm not going to hurt you, 527 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 5: and of course he moves in and kills him. She 528 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 5: has a defensive wound on her hand that the knife 529 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 5: penetrates her palm. 530 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 4: She's trying. 531 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 5: It's shoved so strongly, so savagely at her, but she succumbs, 532 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 5: and then after killing those two, he walks. 533 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 4: Out towards the second floor. 534 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 5: He's heading towards the sliding door, trying to leave, and 535 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 5: there is Dylan. Dylan sees him, and she can't speak. 536 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 5: She's locked in a I believe she describes it, and 537 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 5: the police Affidavid, I think, a shock state of fright. 538 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 4: But at the same. 539 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 5: Exactly, yes, Brian and is locked in his own sort 540 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 5: of armory of hate. And if she had spoken up, 541 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 5: she might have been, you know, penetrated, this protective barrier 542 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 5: that he had wrapped around himself, this narrow focused vision, 543 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 5: and I think she would have become a victim too. 544 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 5: I think her silence saved her life. 545 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: Oh wow, And I'm going to get back to the 546 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 3: room in a second. 547 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: But the timeline for the murders is so compressed. You know, 548 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: we know that they didn't happen before four am, because, 549 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 2: as you point out, that the door dash driver was 550 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: there dropping off food to Xana, and so they believe 551 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 2: it started at four two, when Xana and Ethan presumably 552 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: would have been awake and in their room eating the 553 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: food delivery. And then I thought the timeline was to 554 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: four eighteen, which I think is when we see the 555 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: Hyundai landre leaving there. But it may be even more 556 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: compressed than that, down to like four ten, four oh eight. 557 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 3: You go ahead, you take it. 558 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 5: Yes, isn't it about four h two to four eight 559 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 5: to four twelve? They're not exactly sure, but it's whatever 560 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 5: it is. I mean, the point you're making is so accurate. 561 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 5: It was such a short amount of time. It was 562 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 5: such you know, when he wasn't a trained assassin, and 563 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 5: yet he was. 564 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 4: One can only imagine if Coberger was selling filled. 565 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 5: With so much rage that he was able to do 566 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 5: this work with so much manic energy, so much manic, 567 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 5: vicious viciousness. 568 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 4: It's a horrific crime. 569 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: You've got four victims potentially in the course of eight minutes, 570 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: and you write in the book that that would be 571 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: two minutes per person to commit these murders, to take 572 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: out these young, promising lives by a guy who as 573 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: far as we know, as far as we know, has 574 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: never killed before. You spend some time as potentially a 575 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: weakness of the prosecution's case on something we've talked about before, 576 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: and that is the difference in the corner's descriptions of 577 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: how at least three out of the four were killed. 578 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 3: And I wondered if you wanted to say anything about that. 579 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: Here you say, okay, they talk about the corner writes 580 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: about how Kaylee and Maddie were killed and suffered visible 581 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: stab wounds, quoting here from the corner suffered visible stab wounds. 582 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: I think we all can understand what those are. Yet 583 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: on the floor below second floor, Xana succumb to quote 584 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: wounds caused by an edged weapon, which isn't the same 585 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: thing as a visible stab wound. It sounds to me 586 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: like they maybe slit her throat, I don't know, and 587 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: then just. 588 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 3: To finish it off. 589 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: Ethan's wounds are described as quote caused by sharp focus injuries. 590 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, caused by injuries caused bay, 591 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: but walk us through that that those. 592 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 4: I think you know you're you're making. 593 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 5: I think the defense is one of the defense's best 594 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 5: case that the coroner's report was so inexact. There were 595 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 5: lots of screw ups in this case, and I think 596 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 5: the corners in exactitude was one of them. 597 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 4: I don't you know he lays the corner she. 598 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 5: Actually I think the corner is shes with former nurse 599 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 5: in town lays open the possibility for the defense to 600 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 5: raise that maybe there were other assassins involved, maybe other weapons. 601 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 5: But I don't think. I don't think that's the case. 602 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 5: I think it's just poor use of language. The point 603 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 5: that you're making about the difference is will be made 604 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 5: by the defense in court and they will try to 605 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 5: drive it at home to raise doubts in the jury's mind. 606 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: Right, like, how could how could one man have done 607 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 2: this one as far as we know, not trained assassin 608 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: who you know were for the CIA for years. It's 609 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: one twenty eight year year old man. And if he 610 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: did do it, where were the injuries on him? Because 611 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 2: there's evidence that at least two of the victims fought, 612 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: So where are the defensive wounds? 613 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 3: Well, where are the attack wounds on Brian Colberger? 614 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 5: There are no scratches on Brian Colberger. What the prosecution 615 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 5: believes I've discovered is that prior to the murders, Coburger 616 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 5: had bought, they contend, a blue Dicky's work suit which 617 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 5: covers from your ankles more or less up to your neck, 618 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 5: and he wore that worksuit on the night of the murders. 619 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 5: After the killings, that worksuit was probably drenched in blood. 620 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 5: According to the prosecution and law enforcement theory, he took 621 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 5: off that worksuit, put in a plastic garbage bag, and 622 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 5: on his circuitous route back to his apartment in Washington, 623 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 5: somewhere along the way he dropped it off through it 624 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 5: in a river. 625 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 4: But they've never found that, and they've never found the 626 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 4: murder weapon. 627 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 5: I mean, the prosecution is going to have, I believe, 628 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 5: a difficult legal case to make, and I think the defense, 629 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 5: they've left defense lots of avenues to pursue, lots of 630 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 5: avenues not to raise facts, but to raise doubts. 631 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 3: Will you point out in the book that. 632 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 2: Kayley's dad, Steve Gonsalvez, has been working his own investigation 633 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: into this case, and he apparently, among others, got his 634 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 2: hands on a grand juror two of them, two of 635 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: the grand jurors, And this may be how we know 636 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: some of these facts, like the Dickey's uniform that Brian 637 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: Coldberger allegedly purchased and may have been wearing, and like 638 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: the fact that Brian Coldberger bought a k bar knife 639 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: just like the one used in these murders months before 640 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 2: the murders. And interestingly, though there are reportedly receipts for 641 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 2: both of those items in Brian's accounts, neither one has 642 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 2: been found, which, in some ways Howard is even more 643 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: suspicious than actually finding them. 644 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 5: Right and you raised Steve Gum calls Kayley's dad. I mean, 645 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 5: he's a fascinating figure in this entire story. I mean, 646 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 5: my heart goes out to him. You know, as the 647 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 5: father of three children myself, how could you your heart 648 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 5: not break over what he's been through When after the 649 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 5: events first happened, he says, you send your daughter off 650 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 5: to college and she comes back to you and an earn. 651 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 5: That's one of the most poignant phrases I've ever heard. 652 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 5: And yet I admire him and respect him for the 653 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 5: fact that he refuses to give into events. He's not 654 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 5: going to just sit back passively and let anyone else 655 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 5: do it. This was his daughter, and he's determined as 656 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 5: best he can to get to the bottom of things. 657 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 5: And even now, well I think he believes the suspect 658 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 5: has been caught, He's still built with a desire not 659 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 5: just for justice, but also for retribution and vengeance. 660 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 4: I mean, he and his family. 661 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 5: Members support the Idaho law for a firing squad for 662 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 5: execution on a guilty verdict if the chemicals needed for 663 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 5: a chemical execution cannot be found again. He is Coberger's 664 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 5: father is These are all victims of this story. This 665 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 5: is a story where there are, as I keep on saying, 666 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 5: no survivors. Everyone has been victimized. An entire town has 667 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 5: been victimized. 668 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 2: For the record, Brian Colberger denies having committed these crimes 669 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 2: and has asserted in court that he has some sort 670 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 2: of an alibi. Something we've discussed at length on the show. 671 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 2: It seems incredib flimsy. He doesn't really have an alibi, 672 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 2: his lawyers saying, as far as I can glean, he 673 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: just likes to drive around at night, and that's why 674 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 2: his car when he wasn't at his apartment at the 675 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 2: time the murders were taking place. We'll learn more if 676 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,959 Speaker 2: we ever actually see a trial on this never ending 677 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 2: pre trial motions, if if they end in an actual trial. 678 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: Let's talk about Dylan, because she's the eyewitness the police 679 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 2: had in their back pocket, and eyewitness of sorts. She 680 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: didn't see him commit murders, but she described a man 681 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 2: who matches Colberger's description with the bushy eyebrows and a 682 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 2: COVID type mask in her apartment, in her house on 683 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 2: the night of the murders. We believe this was as 684 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 2: he was leaving post murders. And what I didn't fully understand. 685 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: I mean, this has been reported, but she and the 686 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,479 Speaker 2: other roommate who was not an eyewitness but was also there, 687 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: was she also there. I don't know why I'm forgetting this, 688 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 2: but they were texting during the midst of the murders. 689 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 3: Howard. 690 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 5: Well, according to what I've heard, to what was given 691 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 5: to the grand jury, they were they were concerned about 692 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 5: the noise at the same time. You know you're asking, 693 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 5: I'm asking. The defense will ask all sorts of reasonable 694 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 5: rational questions. How could you not say anything? 695 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 4: How could you not pick up the phone and call 696 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 4: nine one one? 697 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 5: These are not rational moments, These are uh, I believe. 698 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 5: And I went into this with a great deal of 699 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 5: suspicion about what was going on. I believe, you know, 700 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 5: Dylan was, as she describes it, in a state of shock, 701 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 5: a frozen, frozen state of shock and fright, and she 702 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 5: just couldn't respond and her mind was not making sense. 703 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 4: Of events. 704 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 5: It's incredible as she waited, you know, till the next 705 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 5: morning to make a call, and she doesn't even call 706 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 5: the police. 707 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 4: Even at that point she's still. 708 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,919 Speaker 5: She calls friends one of the fraternities and they come 709 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 5: down and one of Ethan's friends makes the nine to 710 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 5: one one call. 711 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 4: To the police. These are all incredible events. 712 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 5: As one of the reasons why this entire story has 713 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 5: I think captivated and perplexed so many people, because it's 714 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 5: not nice and neat where you see things on a 715 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 5: television movie, for example, But there are a lot of 716 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 5: things that really don't make sense because a night like 717 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 5: that doesn't make sense. 718 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 4: And that's sort of why I called the book When 719 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 4: the Night Comes Falling. 720 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 5: When the night came falling that night and that morning 721 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 5: on November twelfth and the thirteenth, chaos, madness in all. 722 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 2: Rain, silence about this only makes sense to me if 723 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,760 Speaker 2: she did not know what was happening, if she didn't 724 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 2: think that anybody was in danger, if she thought this 725 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 2: was a guy, viz. One of the roommates, she's annoyed, 726 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 2: she's texting with the other roommate. They're so loud, they're annoying. 727 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 2: That would make sense to me. That's how young people behave, 728 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 2: like God, shut up, it's four in the morning, having 729 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: zero idea they're being killed. And that then when she 730 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 2: saw Brian leaving, she thought this was an invited guest 731 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 2: and not a killer. 732 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 3: That would make perfect sense to me. 733 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 2: It doesn't line up with what's in the police affidavit, however, No, I. 734 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 4: Think the scenario that you are saying makes sense. I 735 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 4: think her realization at the same time is. 736 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 5: Very much like Michael Coburger's in the sense that they 737 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 5: have intimations of what's going but they refuse to make 738 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 5: the leap because the leap is too horrific. It's too 739 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 5: horrific for her to make this leap that this guy 740 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 5: is not just a party reveler who's leaving the house 741 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 5: if they've been whatever pulling around upstairs. He actually is 742 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 5: a murderer, and that sensor trying to make that thought 743 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 5: process into a complete detachment. It's the same sort of 744 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 5: detachment that Michael Colberger does when he realizes in his 745 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 5: mind that, oh, my gosh, my. 746 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 4: Son might have been involved in these murders. 747 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 5: So instead of taking a step forward, they both take 748 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 5: a step back. 749 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 2: Well, this leads me to one of the most interesting 750 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:32,240 Speaker 2: things in this book, and it's Melissa. Melissa is Brian 751 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 2: Kohlberger's older sister, and much like Michael Kohlberger, who you 752 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: write in the book seems to have had suspicions about 753 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 2: his son from the start, long before the cops knew 754 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 2: the name Brian Colberger, Melissa too had reason to suspect 755 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 2: him and spoke to the dad Michael about it. 756 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 3: Tell us about her. 757 00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 5: Well, Melissa is a family psychologist, and she's like. 758 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 4: We all were reading the papers. 759 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 5: She knows her brother who's had problems, who is a 760 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 5: heroin addict, who has violent tempers, tantrums, and he's just 761 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 5: a little weird. Is out there. He lives ten miles 762 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 5: from the where the killings occurred, and he happens to 763 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 5: be driving a white Hondai a Lantra, and that just 764 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 5: happens to be the car the police are looking for. 765 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 4: You know. 766 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 5: She has her psychology degree, She's able to put the 767 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 5: pieces together. And when she finally comes back with the 768 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 5: Christmas holiday and she sees her brother meticulously cleaning is 769 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 5: Hondi seeing him at one point she sees him taking 770 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 5: his back garbage and keeping it separate from the families 771 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 5: put into plastic banks. And you know, two and two 772 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 5: make four. And she confronts the father, and the father 773 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 5: is now has his daughter articulating all the thoughts that 774 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 5: were simmering coming into realization is own mind. And there 775 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 5: suddenly he's given them. Someone is telling them that everything 776 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 5: you've been thinking is true is in fact true. And 777 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 5: the only thing he can do, when confronted with this 778 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 5: is do what Dylan does. He sort of walks back 779 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 5: into his room. He walks off, just the way she 780 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 5: walks back into the room. I don't want to deal 781 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 5: with this overpowering reality. 782 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 2: It is how could process any of that that your 783 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 2: son may have committed this kind of heinous crime. You 784 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,359 Speaker 2: write in the book as follows about Melissa, Then there 785 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 2: was okay. There he was in the kitchen lead at night, 786 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,839 Speaker 2: sorting his day's personal detritus into plastic ziplock bags. And 787 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 2: though she had not set out to spy, and afterward 788 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 2: wished she had never seen it at all, there was 789 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 2: her brother sneaking out after midnight like a man on 790 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 2: a mission. He walked down the long drive in the 791 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 2: starlit chill to deposit the family's trash in a next 792 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 2: door neighbor's bins. When she put a name and purpose 793 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 2: to all she'd been witnessing, it left her shaking. At last, 794 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 2: though Melissa found the will to share her increasingly certain 795 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 2: deduction with her father. Michael listened, and yet he could 796 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 2: not respond. A long, agonized silence filled the room until 797 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 2: at last he turned his back and walked away. And 798 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 2: it would have had to have been within days of that, Howard, 799 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 2: that they were all woken up in the middle of 800 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 2: the night by the police, guns drawn, arresting Brian Colberger. 801 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 5: Right, And there's an irony to that because it was 802 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 5: Michael's DNA that the police had that connected him to 803 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,439 Speaker 5: the knife sheet. 804 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 4: So the father, in effect his DNA caught his son. 805 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,799 Speaker 5: He was trying to escape from that, and yet it 806 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 5: was almost like a Greek tragedy. 807 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 4: He couldn't. 808 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 5: It was an excelebrit drawn to that that he was 809 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 5: going to be the one to condemn his son. 810 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 2: Yes, because of genetic genealogy, which is another revelation in 811 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 2: the book about how the FBI knew it was Brian 812 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 2: Coldberger or suspected him thanks to genetic genealogy. There was 813 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 2: a touch DNA and the knife sheath. Thanks to genetic genealogy, 814 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 2: they traced it to someone related to Michael Colberger, which 815 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 2: led them to Brian, and they didn't share it with 816 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 2: the local cops. There's all sorts of interesting details on 817 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 2: why and theories as well that you're going to want 818 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 2: to read again. The book is called When the Night 819 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 2: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders by 820 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 2: Howard Bloom. Please check it out as available now in 821 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 2: whatever form you want. As I said, I already consumed 822 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 2: it twice and recommend it to all. 823 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 4: Howard, thank you, thank you, pleasure talking with him. 824 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,399 Speaker 2: Nay, my gosh, such a horrific crime. And again on 825 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 2: six twenty seven we'll find out, we think, whether they're 826 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 2: going to set a trial date anytime soon. 827 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 3: Fingers crossed