WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Jason Flom 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:00.720 Of Course. 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:04.720 Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:09.799 was produced by the team at Pandora Ladies and Gentlemen. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.040 This is QLs classic from January third, twenty eighteen. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.400 We talked to Jason Flom. Names like plant, familiar with what. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.520 His impact is felt, name of either Signed or Discovered 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.040 or A and R, Katy Perry, Lord Sugar, Red Blue 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:29.600 Man Group, Haley Williams in Paramol, Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravin's Coldplay, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:31.440 Jesse Jay, and list goes on. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.519 And this man has spent the first half. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.080 Of his life and making consisis dreams come true and 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.000 the second half of his life in the end his 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:43.120 career shining the light of those who have been wrongfully convicted. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.760 He's the host of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. This 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.479 podcast features apps with women who have spent time in 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.320 the prison system or trying to fight the prison system 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.639 as we now know it. Kardashians of Meat and Hill, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.640 Amanda Knox, Rodney Reed and he's trying to bring them 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:01.280 their freedom. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.720 I hope you enjoyed this episode. You will listen last 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:12.800 say with Jason for here we go. Just follow us. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.440 Supremo, sup sup Supremo roll call. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:24.040 Supremo Su Supremo roll call, Suprema South Supremo, roll call 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.920 Suprema Sun Sun Supremo roll call. 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.240 Swear to God. Yeah, from this day on. Yeah, on 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:38.800 my speed down, We'll be Supremo suck you never know. 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.800 Roll call Suprema Son Su Supremo role call. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:45.119 My name is Fante. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.200 Yeah, and I'm much blacker yeah than the audience. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.520 Yeah for Uncle Cracker. 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.960 Sun Supremo, roll call Supremo Sun Sun Supremo. 0:01:59.160 --> 0:01:59.800 Roll call. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.640 Name is Sugar. Yeah, y'all try to stay calm. Yeah, 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:05.320 but on ancestry dot com. 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:11.000 Yeah, I'm a flying Supremo. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.639 Roll call Supremo Supremo roll call. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.880 Bill woke up Yeah with the song on his mind. 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:19.560 Yeah. 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:26.919 Thanks, Jason Flahm. Yeah, for a week by White Lion Supremo. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.680 Roll was a Suprema So Supremo roll called. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:34.760 Yeah, everybody united. 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:42.120 Yeah, Jason Fea, we gonna fight him, That's what I'm saying. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.520 Suprema Roll. 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.200 Supremo, roll call me Dolly. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:49.520 Yeah. 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.040 Yeah, I'm the Obama. I don't know what to come up. Yeah, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:54.960 but I'll tell you this. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:10.720 Suprema Son Subprevo roll call suppreva su supremo, roll call, supremo, supremo. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:11.119 Roll. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.239 I love a good car crash every now and then 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.440 about that. No, you know, use right up there. At 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.560 least he didn't freeze up completely like some guests do. Exactly. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.000 Yeah, no, you handle it fairly with white cleft. 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:26.800 Tried to teach me how to freestyle. It just didn't 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:27.200 work out. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:27.720 Freestyle. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.480 You don't you start with a freestyle. You gotta start 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:31.600 with the freestyle as hard. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:32.840 I don't know that's. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.920 Going to college. Yeah, just start your basic rhyme. Make 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.880 sure and I'm here to say, is your second one? 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:40.440 That's your that's your start. 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.960 He didn't tell me that. Yeah, it's gonna drop some 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.160 roses and reddish violets are bluish. You know. I'm not 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.080 very religious, but if I was, i'd be Jewish. But 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:48.480 it just like it is. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:50.720 Steve is in love already, man. 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.760 I mean, yeah, I got a nice little diverse crowd here, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.520 you know what I mean? Thank you very twenty eighteen, 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:57.840 very much too much. 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.120 Solf missing one of our white guys. Yeah we are, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.040 actually yes, he's actually he's at his job. 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.040 We're hooking from our job to be here at this 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:11.000 other job anyway, Ladies and gentlemen, our guest today. He 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:15.320 has entered the professional music world or the industry, in 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.520 his early twenties as an A and R REP, later 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.880 as head in Our Atlantic Records. Might I also add 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.200 under the Urdigon iron Fist, which basically means that he 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.880 literally learned from the best h He's signed Twisted, Sister, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.200 White Lions, get Row, Tori Amos, Stone, Temple of Pilots 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.880 name a few, and in nineteen ninety five he co 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.840 found it or found it Lava Records, which was an 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.200 Atlantic subsidiary signing the likes of all the nineties t 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.200 R L staples like Kid Rock and Uncle. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.440 Cracker and oh Yeah, Massbox twenty Core in Sugar Bay, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.480 I believe yeah. And then since. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.200 Then, those days were fun. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.280 I can imagine. Yeah, I was in college with those 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:02.960 Sugar Records. 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:09.440 And since then and his world domination mission. Uh you, 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.960 I'm sorry you. I'm telling you what you did. He 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.120 led the Virgin in the Capitol Records merger, working with 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:24.080 the Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravitz, even Coldplay, particular favorite of fantees. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.880 I'm sure that you have gazillion questions not to mention 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.520 He's led many to the Promised Land. It's such unknown 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:39.800 acts as Katie Perry thirty seconds to marsh multiple multiple 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.400 plantum x, but way it gets worse. 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.600 He's also the founding member of the Innocence. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:48.279 Project founding board member. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:49.360 The founding board. 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.920 Member, I'm sorry of the Innocence Project not to mention 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:57.799 the Bronx Freedom Fund FAM, which is a great acronym 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:03.359 for Families against man intory minimums UH, basically trying to 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:08.040 ensure that those that are caught up in the law 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:13.599 with wrongful convictions get their proper due in court, get retrials, 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.560 get get out, Yes, get freedom. Yeah, we can go 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:20.920 on and on and yeah. She also signed Jesse, j 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.880 and Lord. I'll add at the end, ladies and gentlemen, 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.000 please welcome to our first show of the new year. 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:27.520 Jason flomp to question. 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.080 Thank you very much, dude, I'm happy to be here. 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.360 Kind of an honor. Actually, we've gotta be honest. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.400 We're excited because you're a true record man, but you're 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.160 also freedom fighter. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.160 Like one of the last record man like this. 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.719 Dude, you knew I'm at Urnigan, which means something to 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.000 someone that's watching from afar. I don't know how much 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.160 that means to you, but that means, like it. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.760 Was incredible everything around that man. I mean he was 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.800 he was every bit the legend that everybody thinks he was, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.719 and uh maybe the greatest of all time. You know. 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.479 When he was on it was, you know, and I 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.400 caught the tail end of that. But then I got 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.200 to work under him. You know, he became more of 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.880 like an honorary chairman. But I got to work under 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.960 him for twenty five years. I mean it was an awesome, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:14.520 awesome experience. I mean, what else can you say? The 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.280 guy died at Rolling Stones concert, you know what I mean? 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.960 Like to the end, right, he was a legend to 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.000 the fucking end, I mean the best. 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.000 So would you consider yourself the last of his? Of 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.320 his disciples? Like, I feel like those that have studied 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.600 under him have went on to you know, reach further 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.080 than other people in the music business, probably rivaling maybe 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.280 Clive Davis as far as influences concern Like, would you 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:39.840 consider yourself the last of his? 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.640 Well, I don't know, you know, I guess Craig Kalman 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.480 came up under him as well. And Craig's obviously done 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.240 amazing stuff. Still does, and so you know, we worked 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.880 together for a while and yeah, so it was it 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.280 was just an amazing time to be growing up in 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.280 the music industry. You know, I actually started Atlantic when 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.360 I was eighteen, and you know, the first time I 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.520 met omit, which is really kind of tell us. So 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.120 I started off putting up posters in record stores, which 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:11.480 I thought was the greatest job in the world. I 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.480 had a staple gun, some double sided tape, some led 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:18.200 Zeppelin posters, a CDC sister sled Chic. I mean, it 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.440 was just it was incredible mid seventies. You were there 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.880 was seventy nine. So I run around the record stores 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.920 and climb up on ladders and put up posters and 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.240 like it was just it was a great way to 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:29.880 meet girls. I was incredible. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.000 So the PA job, I'm laughing. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.800 Wait, let me just pause this all right, for those 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.840 that you that don't know, I meant the the mom 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:39.400 and dad. 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:40.679 The mom and pop. 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.840 Record store was a staple of the seventies and the 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.520 eighties more than what the chains were in the in 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:52.760 the Tower records. But me as a kid growing up 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.280 in the seventies, going to the mom and pop stores 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.959 my favorite part of that whole experience was seeing the 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.600 window display of how those posters would go up, of 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.720 which when I would go home and everyone would play house. 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:07.880 Or whatever, I played records. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.760 I used to do that too, and like because some 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.880 of that I didn't know that some of those, like 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.480 J cards and cards were not records, they were posters, 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.319 so they'd be bent in a particular way. So I 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.880 would take my father's records and try and then the record, 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.520 Yeah I broke, like the Honey record, broke the Commodore's 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:31.760 debut album, trying to staple them to the wall and 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.400 bend them a certain way. So you are who I 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:36.559 have to blame for many a punishment. 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.400 Well knowing that, but probably half of my displays were 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.360 either crooked or upside down because I was so stoned. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.280 So because I mean, weed was a big thing back then. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:46.920 Man, I I. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:51.400 Got news to tell you. Yeah game But anyway, Yeah, 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.360 So I had this great job. I thought it was 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.480 the greatest job in the world, and I got free records. 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.080 I was like, this is it, Like I've peaked at 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.640 eighteen years old. I can't do better, right, And then 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.720 I discovered a band called Zebra right, and it's a 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.520 crazy story how that even happened, But it doesn't matter. 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.319 I determined that I wanted to get a job doing 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.000 A and R because it looked like a great job 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.360 to me, And so I found a band. Through a 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.760 series of luck and synchronicity and serendipity and perseverance and 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:18.600 a little bit of intelligence, I managed to find this 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.360 band and became a hit. So they gave me a 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.240 job doing A and R. I must have been twenty 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.960 years old. I got a little office at Atlantic Records, 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.439 and one day I'm sitting in there hi with the 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:30.720 drummer from my high school band. We were actually in 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.240 there hanging out like pondering, as we had just gone 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.200 out and smoked a couple of joints. We came back 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.200 and we were sitting there just in fucking amazement and 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:39.880 shocked that I was getting paid to listen to music. 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.280 I was like, how is this even possible? Right? I 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.160 can't believe it. So, as we're sitting there in this haze, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.240 am It's secretary knocks on the door. Her name was 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.000 Jenny Lynn. She knocks on the door and she pokes 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.680 her head and she goes, AHMUT would like to see you, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.520 And I go you're fullest shit. And then he looks 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.480 in and goes, no, she's not. And I was like, oh, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.280 give me, I gotta get cleaned up here. What am 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.840 I going to do so with that fresh buzz on, 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.480 you know? So I went in his office. Man, he 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.000 had some kid in there that he had met in 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:14.760 a club in the Bronx, you know, because he used 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:16.760 to go clubbing and ship right, and this kid, I remember, 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.880 this kid was taking a cigarettes cigarette butts out of 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.960 the astray and relighting them right, and I was like, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.240 he was kind of a desperate looking kid, but he 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.640 was on some like crazy type of music thing that 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.240 I didn't even understand. I mean, I don't want to 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:30.640 tell im. You know, I'm a rock guy. I don't 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.320 know what the fuck you're talking about. I was just like, hm, yes, 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.120 I was good. What was I gonna say. I'm sitting 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.240 there in the presence of the greatest like a deity, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:40.440 and I'm high and I don't know what the hell's 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.200 going on. I don't even know how I'm here. So 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.200 it was it was an amazing It's an amazing way 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:49.320 to start a relationship. Who was the kid? I don't remember. 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.840 I can't remember but that was your first band. That 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:57.040 was the first Byeah. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.400 They had a song called Who's Behind the Door that 0:11:59.480 --> 0:11:59.679 was a. 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:00.920 Big he was signed to Atlantic. 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:02.920 You signed them to Yeah, and they sounded exactly like 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:04.760 led Zeppe, Which is funny because I have a band 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.840 now called Greta van Fleet who also sound like led Zeppelin, 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.199 and they're blowing up. They're actually they may actually save 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.120 rock and roll. These kids, it's incredible. I think they're 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.400 going to I mean, it's really fun. They're they're great musicians. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.160 He sings like fucking Robbert Plant and the kids are 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.080 eating it up. So I think the I think the tide, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.440 the pendulum is swinging back to rock and roll. 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:28.200 I gotta ask how how I mean you're you're lucky streak. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.760 I mean, you know, i'd be rereminious to say that. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:37.520 You know, the artists that you sign, you know, with 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.000 the help of MTV, you know, you kind of route 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:42.640 each other. A lot of the artists that you sign 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.839 that blew up your first wave, your Twisted Sisters, your 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.559 your first wave of metal bands that you signed to Atlantic. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:54.200 Uh, how do you feel about the. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.040 Theory of having good ears or that whole theory of 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.480 did you were you like the new blood that beyond 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:02.240 the ears and like they have a look, they have 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:08.120 a charisma. I mean just the fact that seventies X 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.000 were about Okay, they sound good. 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:13.520 You know they could be ugly and still have a hit. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.880 Yes, the Christopher Cross exactly what was exactly what my 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:25.800 head like, I am a twist assisterm fan. I knew 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.319 all those That's how you know it's successful. When I 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.640 knew I want to rock and all that ship like. 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.760 Well, twisted Sister was a different story because what happened 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.280 was I had found Zebra, and I was so excited 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:39.920 because then I got this little office and a little 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:41.640 job doing A and R because they were having a hit. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.959 And then and then the guy from Zebra his name 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.120 was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson that we're all 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:48.720 friends with, but the different Randy Jackson. 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.080 So there's a third one, not Michael's brother not. 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.720 Yeah, a lot of them jests, right, you know you 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.599 can google that. You can actually google how many of 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.640 me dot com and you can see how many people 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.199 have your same name. And there's four Jason Floms in 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.520 this country, you know. So but anyway, yeah, yeah, she's 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.480 on it. So anyway, so the guy so Randy says 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.319 to me one day Flom, he goes, Twisted Sisters the 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.520 greatest live band in the world. He goes, we can't 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.920 touch him, and neither can anyone else. And I was like, 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:17.760 no shit, okay, well let me check this shit out, 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.520 you know. So I went up to, uh, Poughkeepsie on 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.080 a Wednesday night, and uh, for those of you who 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.160 don't know, I Poughkeepsie's about one hundred miles north of 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:29.360 New York City, and uh, it's funny name, Poughkeepsie. But anyway, 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.520 Zebra was opening for Twisted Sister, which I thought was 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:33.640 kind of weird because Zebra was signed to Twisted, was it. 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.520 And anyway, there was three thousand kids that are on 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.960 a Wednesday night at six Bucks ahead and we're talking whatever. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:39.920 This was nineteen eighty eighty one when six Bucks was 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:44.880 six bucks, right, and uh, every one of these kids 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.520 is wearing a Twisted Sister T shirt. And d Snyder 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.280 comes out on stage and it's like thunder in there, right, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.000 the kids are about to riot. And he gets up 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.520 and he goes, all right, New York. He goes, we 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.240 just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.840 tired of here was lie me, motherfucker's telling us how 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.640 bloody fucking good we are. What do you New York 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.040 motherfuckers have to say? And all three thousand kids throw 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.000 their fists in the ear and go twisted fucking sister. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.120 And I was like, get the fuck out of here. 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.960 I don't even care if they can play their inscrments, 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.160 it doesn't matter. Nothing matters from that point forward. I'm like, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.280 this one comes with instructions, you know what I mean. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.520 And then of course they put on that crazy live show, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.600 which was amazing. I mean, because they had done thousands 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.000 and thousands of shows by that point, nobody would sign them. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.920 They were considered a joke. The funny thing was, I 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.160 come back to the city. I drove back with the 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.840 guitar player JJ and uh. I don't know if I 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:39.880 got home at four or five or whatever the hell 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.080 it was. And I walked into my boss's office the 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.560 next morning on two hours of sleep, and god knows 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:50.120 how many kinds of you know, Intuxicans exactly, thank you. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.840 And I walk in and I go, I found religion 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.640 last night, and he goes, what the fuck are you 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.880 talking about? And I go Twisted sister, and he goes, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.200 get the fuck out of my office. And I was like, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:02.520 I didn't know that they were considered it. 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.320 So they were already known as a joke amongst the. 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.640 They'd been passed on so many times by everybody's the 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.600 music industry. Now they were you know, back then, they were, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.120 you know, known for wearing women's right Sometimes you'd come 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:15.800 out on a dog collar with a chain or he 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.800 did you know, makeup and finging out possible by the way, 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:25.360 who cares, right, Rocky Horror was a hit anyway, so yeah, kiss, yeah, 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.440 But anyway, nobody would sign him, and I went to 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.520 see him again the next night in South Jersey. Had 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.800 thirty seven hundred kids there, and I was like, this 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.800 has got it. This is my mission and life. The 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.040 funny thing was I finally got shut down permanently, and 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.680 they would not sign. My boss would not sign him, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.240 no matter what. He threatened to fire me if I 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.320 ever mentioned the name Twisted. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:43.760 Who is your boss at Atlantic? 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:45.680 You're actually going to call him out for this? I 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:46.360 don't know about that. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:51.080 Let me so many years years anyway, the president of 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.200 Atlantic back then, so not on it. 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:54.320 Okay, okay. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.400 So, so the funny thing was, I saw the head 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.240 of the English company, guy named Phil Arson, in the 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.240 hallway one day. I knew he was I didn't know him, 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.040 but I knew he was like a serious guy, like 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:06.840 he had signed a c DC and shit, he was 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:08.359 like a real guy, you know. I was like, So 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:09.960 I go up to him. I go, mister Carson, here's 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.360 the I told him this whole story. I'm like stumbling 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:13.960 over my words. I'm so excited to write a hand 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:15.440 on the thing or everything. He told me. Later he 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.280 threw the whole thing in the garbage. But then he 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.080 happened to see them opening by accident for I think 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.439 Foreigner or something in London. One day he calls you up. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.120 The next day he goes, this is the best thing 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:25.920 I seen since I saw I see DC. I'm gonna 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.640 sign him. So he signed them. We backdoored it into 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.560 America and then ultimately, of course they became a monster 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.640 hit and it was a lot of fun while it lasted. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.280 You know, well, yeah, I mean, I guess till what 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.160 eighty Well, they at least had two. 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.439 They had one. The first album was like a moderate success. 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:44.920 It's called You Can't stop rock and roll. And the 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:46.520 second one was stay Hungry, and of course that was 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:47.840 We're not going to take it and I want to 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:49.560 rock and you know all that's. 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.720 What I'm not gonna take it. That changed my life. 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.399 That even old enough to remember that I remember the 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.439 video was really I thought you. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:56.960 Were born. 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:05.080 Your older siblings told you about it, yeah. 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.200 On the internet. But yes, yeah, we're not going to 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:07.600 take it. 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.680 Everything good, So I guess you would. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.240 I guess one could say that you were like the 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.719 new blood at Atlantic, Whereas, because I've seen this happen 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:25.240 where something doesn't translate to someone that's a baby boomer, 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.440 like say one of your NR peers who was born 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.880 maybe in like forty three, forty four, forty five that's 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.479 slightly older that you know, thinks that this is just 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:43.159 you know, trash and wouldn't translate is absolute garbage, whereas you, 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.959 being slightly younger being I guess you could say a 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:49.080 generation xer. 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.920 Finds make sense of it all. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.879 And so yeah, I mean I loved you know I 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.520 grew up on When I was a kid, my favorite 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.679 artist were Zeppelin, Arrowsmith, the Beatles, Bob Dylan. You know 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.320 those wuld probably be my top four, but there were 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.159 so many. I mean, back then you had you know, 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.440 Queen would definitely be my top five too. I mean 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.959 that those are the greatest. It was like a renaissance 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.720 to me, you know, musically in America and the world 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.440 actually because a lot most of those actually came from England. 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.400 But it was just an incredible period. But I grew 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.520 up on guitar music, right, I like guitar music, and 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.760 so to me the hard rock bands, and it peaked 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.040 with Guns and Roses. Obviously I didn't sign Guns and Roses, 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.480 but that that era was. It's actually I think a 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.359 lot of those bands are underrated. I mean some of 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.439 them weren't. Some of them were terrible, but you know, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.040 some of them were actually underrated. And I think skid 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.840 Row was a great band, Like I mean, he was 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.840 an incredible singer and those first two albums were magical. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.760 So did you sign all of the hair metal acts 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:49.320 of Atlantic? 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.200 Were you responsible for most of them? 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.640 I didn't sign Rat I missed that one, but most 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.960 of them I signed, And you know it was uh. 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.600 Which one got away that you almost freaking had and love. 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.760 I've been in therapy for years trying to forget them. 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.000 You give me your top three, your top three could 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:10.720 have had him in. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.400 Oh fuck, I mean I listened. I had a meeting 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.920 with bon Jovi early on, you know what I mean. Now, 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.280 now bear in mind, I think that bon Jovi signing 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:20.879 to Mercury was the best thing that could happened to 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.119 him because they made a decision that they were going 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:24.720 to put the whole building behind him, because they were 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.560 going to go broke if they didn't break somebody. And 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:28.960 you know, remember that company was or it was a PolyGram. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.520 They were being sold for fifty million dollars, the whole company, 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.600 and also some genius at that company had the idea 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.080 to put them together with Desmond Child, which on paper 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.919 wouldn't seem to make sense, right Desmond was like a 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.919 gay guy disco songwriter, like bon Jovi was sort of 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.520 this like macho kid from New Jersey doing rock and roll. 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:48.800 But somebody had that vision to put them together. And 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.560 that's where the greatest songs came from, was that collaboration. Okay, 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.359 so you know, so who knows. You know, we can 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.920 go back through history and you know and see what's what, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.720 But that would certainly be you know. 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:01.679 You could have had him. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.000 I think we could have had him. I think, you know, 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.320 we came close. What else did I come close on? Oh? 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.280 I mean I tried. I tried like hell to sign Tool, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:11.840 but I didn't get them. I would have loved to 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.480 get a Tool. Yeah, I mean, I don't know why. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.399 I still don't know why. I mean I schmoozed them 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.680 and did whatever I could and didn't get it. And 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.240 I can't think of the third one. It'll come back 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:25.439 to me. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.879 So as a rock and guitar guy, I just have 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:34.480 to know, from a professional standpoint, what was your feelings 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.480 about the watershed moment in which Nirvana arrived and sort 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.040 of rendered kind of the domino setup that you have 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.480 for the eighties almost. 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:51.879 Void. I mean, I've heard tales of artists speaking, So 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.080 what was your when Nirvana came along and sort of 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.639 marked the end of the hair metal guitar acts. 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.600 Did you feel a particular way about their arrival or 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.919 were you like, Okay, well this is this is on 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.880 to the new and let me, you know, get ahead 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:09.440 of the pack and see what else is out there? 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:14.480 Or were you sort of a traditionalist hair metal and 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:15.720 you know. 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:18.200 You know, I felt like you could kind of see 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.600 it coming because my feeling is that my theory is 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:25.879 that the musical trends are dictated by whoever makes the 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.200 best music. Right, That's how musical trends happen. Is that 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:30.840 the most creativity. 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.800 Are you sure about that though? I think so? 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:33.720 Why what do you think you. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:34.639 As the most money? 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:40.639 Because there's musical trends happening now that isn't necessarily the 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.720 best music, but it's popular. Like can you separate the 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.520 difference between popular and what you feel in your heart? 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:52.200 Well, that's a very deep question, right, I mean, you know, Okay, 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.920 let's not call it musical trends. Then let's talk about movements. 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.840 Important movements happen, right, and then you can go back 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.080 to like it's it's interesting when even going back to 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:05.439 when disco happened, right, Why did disco happen because the 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.680 creativity was incredible back then, right? Or why did rap 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:10.959 come up? Right? And why is it still what it is? 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:15.600 Because there's actual geniuses making music in that genre. Right. 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.200 There haven't been any rock and roll geniuses probably since 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.840 Jack White, So you know, it's hard for that to 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.840 maintain when you don't have that influx of creativity that 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.920 you that you need to sustain a movement. And then 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.280 even going back to what you were asking about with Nirvada, 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:34.480 the hair band thing, like I said, it peaked with 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.400 guns and roses and then it went off a cliff. Right, 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.159 you had bands coming up and actually getting over that 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.919 were terrible. I mean, and we can name them if 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.400 we want to, but it was okay, so. 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:45.720 Yeah, I. 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:50.359 Mean, you know, I don't want to mention names, but 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:54.320 bullet Boys and Trickster and fire House and like. 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.680 So eventually I grew up in Indiana. 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.440 Man, Okay, there you go. So yeah, you can kind 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.360 of see like this was not this was like imitation stuff. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.280 And if they're listening, you know, I'll probably get like 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:10.639 nasty direct messages on my Instagram, but whatever. You know, 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.920 the fact is, you know, it was ripe for change, 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.159 and there has there's always a reaction. And then all 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.919 of a sudden, the Seattle sound came up and you 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:24.480 had geniuses again, right, you had Nirvana. I mean, I 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:28.399 think Alison Chains was incredible. Obviously, Pearl Jam is music 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:30.480 that people will be listening to one hundred years from now. 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:33.439 So it's unfortunately, like I said, in guitar music, I 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:35.320 think that was the last wave of music that will 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:36.359 be time capsule music. 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:41.280 I have a slight theory though, because okay, because hip 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:46.080 hop was created out of sort of the impoverished conditions 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.520 of the inner city, and thus this culture comes in 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:55.840 seventy seven. I have a weird feeling that what's going 0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:03.119 on right now in society, ticularly with the slow rise 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:07.639 or the you know us finally acknowledging the literal white 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:11.720 elephant in the room of the the alts right kind 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:16.760 of the the the anger, be it justified or unjustified, whatever, 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:19.679 you know, whatever your feelings are about it. But I 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:25.119 almost feel like it's it's that anger that might spark 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:31.080 up rock and roll, like what we knew as rock 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:33.119 and roll, which was non existence, because I mean, the 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.920 reason why hip hop sort of replaced rock and roll because. 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:36.440 It was angrier. 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:39.960 Like it's it's like after fuk the police. 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:43.160 Like where do you go for? You can't you can't 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:43.919 get any deeper. 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:46.600 And as far as like hip hop's concerned, always felt 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:48.119 that fifty. 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.400 Killed hip hop easily. 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.080 After after well, no, no, I know where you're going 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.720 with because after fifty was there was no more money 0:25:57.880 --> 0:26:02.520 after yeah, after after heat, after you get sad times 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.160 and make it. It's like, okay, how do you become 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:10.679 exactly like he said, I'll kill you? And then that's it. 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:13.080 After that song and heat with you know, the song 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:17.000 with Doctor Dre had the gun gun shot snare, like 0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:20.080 to really drive the point home because you missed it. 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:23.200 That was the end. That was like you couldn't get 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:24.080 no more extreme in that. 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:26.800 And then hip hop is now you know, user friendly, 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:27.919 it's heavy baton. 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.119 You think rock and roll is ready to pick that up? 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:33.280 Is trying I think like Scrillics is trying to. 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:35.720 But I feel like this general, I feel like millennials 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:39.640 are so all inclusive with mixing their cultures and everything 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.280 that not even ed m was scary, even though that was. 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:44.119 Supposed to be the supposed to be scary. 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.520 The bus noise, I mean that was supposed to be 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.520 like every generation has their rebel noise. We had eight 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:55.120 to weight, the seventies had guitars like the the war war. 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.119 Sorry you didn't think that weight was I figured it 0:26:57.160 --> 0:26:59.440 would have been the scratch to the record scratch the 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.000 way it's pretty scary though. 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:06.960 Well not scary, but just the presence that it is 0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:12.520 impact And I feel like some anger is going to 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:17.680 come out in music again, directed or misdirected, poverty or not. 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:19.359 And I feel like. 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:24.879 I wish you to hurry up, you know, do you 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:26.360 feel that because you're there. 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:27.600 I'm still waiting for it to happen. When he said 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:29.480 it was gonna happen during the Bush era, so yeah, 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:30.960 I was wrong. 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:33.960 Yeah, it's actually weird that it hasn't happened, because if 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:35.800 there was ever a time to get angry, it's now. 0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:38.360 I mean, it's never been more obvious, because I mean, 0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:40.760 ship George Bush looks like George Washington all of a sudden, 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:45.840 the worst president ever, all of a sudden, everybody's wishing 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:48.119 he was back. I mean, if we could have a 0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:50.320 national referendum and bring him back, I'd lead it, you 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:50.639 know what I mean? 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:54.440 Yeah, at their current conditions. 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:58.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, any one of them. Absolutely, Barbara Bush. 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:03.359 Yeah, But you know what, maybe because music has become 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.240 so corporately involved and I don't know, with the whole 0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:09.040 scaring of the NFL and things, do you think maybe 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:10.240 artists are taking note of that. 0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:13.399 And I'm speak a little and I'm a Graham, but. 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.920 Like, how crazy that the civil rights leader of our 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:19.679 era is a quarterback, right, I mean, how crazy it's 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:21.800 supposed to be music. I don't know what's going on. 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:24.960 I mean, Dixie Chicks. 0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:25.680 I don't think. 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:29.320 People don't want to mess up their money. Like that's 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:31.440 what I'm asking Like a musician now. 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:32.119 Like you want to be. 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:34.200 They want to be in bed with all the corporate 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.400 sponsors and all of that ship. So they don't want 0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:38.600 to say anything that will remotely even fuck up the 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:40.440 chances of them getting some outside bread. 0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:41.680 They want that Kitcat commercial. 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.040 They want a kit Cat commercial, they want to Sprite commercial, 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:44.960 they want all that, but. 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:47.280 There's gotta be some I mean, that's a really, that's 0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:49.440 that's it. It really hurts me to hear you say that, 0:28:49.480 --> 0:28:51.480 and it's kind of it feels that way if it's 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:53.760 very cynical and it's like it sucks, you know. I mean, 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:55.480 somebody's got to come out and be the new dealan. 0:28:55.520 --> 0:28:56.560 You would have to be the have not. 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.920 Like whoever's going to be the new dealan is has 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.520 to be a half not and be cool with being 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:04.440 a half not. I mean, you know, hip hop has 0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:08.360 already tainted. You know, did he came along too much money? 0:29:08.520 --> 0:29:10.400 Did he came along and showed us all these yachts 0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:14.200 and ship and you know, I mean, I'm. 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:15.760 Trying can trick it somewhere, you know, you. 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:17.719 Know, you know what's the best protest song I've heard 0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:19.280 in a while? Did you you know this song by 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.680 Brett dennan Ain't No Reason? Oh that's a good one. 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:24.400 You may have to play it on the show. Yeah, 0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:27.120 it's it's about four years ago and he hasn't, you know, 0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:30.680 become a commercial. You know, I was hoping he was 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:33.120 going to become bigger because that song's power did sign 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.440 I wanted to, But I think he may have stayed independent. 0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:39.520 I'm not sure what became with you Brett denn and 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:40.960 d E N and the N and the song is 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:44.880 Ain't No Reason strong ship. But so yeah, somebody's going 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:46.840 to come along, and you know what, whoever it does 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.520 and does it right is going to own it because 0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:52.000 nobody else is doing it. So there's that giant hole. 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:54.080 David Foster likes to talk about that hole in the marketplace. 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:55.640 Sometimes I don't think this is what he meant. But 0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.800 in this in this case, there is a void, and 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:00.880 somebody's going to come along and fill that void. And 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:04.080 you know, some of the rappers are talking some straight stuff, right, 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.080 but yeah, I mean. 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:09.560 Chance logic, yeah, logic definitely, so. 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:13.960 You know, but it doesn't it's not anywhere near what 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:16.920 it could be and should be. Where's the Colin Kaepernick 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:18.680 of music? Come on, let's go. 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:24.320 Celebrity has ruined the industry. And that's the thing. Even 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:25.840 if we find that person. 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:27.880 They're gonna go off for the reality show and. 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:31.120 They'll be lifted to celebrity heights so big that they 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:35.760 can't you know, they they would have to. Unfortunately, I 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:39.040 mean Kurt Kobaine's solution to that. You know what his 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:44.160 solution to avoiding becoming a cliche was, And that's, you know, 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:45.600 sadly what the reality is. 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.680 It's like, we find something and then we in trying 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:50.120 to avoid a cliche, he became one. 0:30:50.240 --> 0:30:52.840 So I'll tell you this. I think somebody's out there 0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:56.040 probably listening to this show who's got that gene that 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:59.040 won't let them be anything other than what they're meant 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:01.440 to be, which is exactly what we're hoping for. You know, 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:03.520 there's one motherfucker out there who's going to come out 0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:06.160 and be like because they need to, because they have to, 0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:08.440 and and they don't care about you know, sponsorships, and 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:12.240 they don't care about you know, I mean, it exists. 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.160 And if, like I said, the time is so ripe now, 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:16.280 oh my god. 0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:18.000 Then how do you keep that kind of person motivated 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.960 to stay in the business Because you get these acts 0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:23.000 that are they get hyped up to become the next 0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:25.520 h next big thing and then they turn to Ja 0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:28.960 Electronica and disappeared in front of an xbox for six years. 0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:31.440 I think I think that that person does exist, And 0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:34.480 like I said, it's it's almost like they're gonna have 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:38.440 to plug Maclamore made some really important records, right, I feel. 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:41.240 Like every time he does it kind of almost yes. 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.520 But yeah, that White Privilege, that song was amazing, but 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:45.560 I feel like nobody ever. 0:31:45.440 --> 0:31:49.080 Heard Yeah so was the one the one about the 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:52.600 same Love. What a beautiful, beautiful record, I mean amazing. 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:55.440 And some of the statements he made her so powerful, 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:59.440 you know, I wish there was more of that, you know, 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:01.920 And but I but I'm an optimist and I believe 0:32:01.960 --> 0:32:04.080 there will be because it has to be a reaction, 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:05.240 always has to be in a yang. 0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:09.800 Speaking of which, Okay, I gotta say I was joking 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:11.560 by saying, speaking of which, let's talk about. 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:12.960 Kid Rock man. 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:17.440 No, I gotta say, even though his politics anger the 0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:18.120 ship out of me. 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:25.320 Speaking of Kid Rock, I loved Hamilton, No, but I was. 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:30.760 I will say that of any story of an artist 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:37.040 getting signed to a label, uh, his story is the greatest, 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.200 funniest story of all time, almost to the point where 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:43.320 I think I would almost invite him on the show 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:45.000 to do a one on one without you guys just. 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:51.360 Scared scared? Oh no you should be. 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:54.360 No, I mean we were. 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:56.720 We were thrilling. I mean, he ain't gonna, we ain't gonna. 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.480 God damn Kate walk right, But but do I keep 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:00.000 it respectful? 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:04.720 Yeah? But a Republican he wasn't running. He was he was. 0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:05.680 He was trying to sell us out. 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:07.640 He's not, okay because I appreciate it. Rock he said 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:16.880 some things that have been listened lately that I don't 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:18.000 know him no anymore? 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:24.320 No, no, yeah, no more? 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:31.479 How about those next seven and man things? You know 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:32.040 looking up. 0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:32.600 Who won last? 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:37.400 So okay, I'm trying to move you down the timeline. 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:41.600 Why did you leave Atlantic Records? Did you have when? 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:42.000 When? 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:42.480 Uh? 0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:48.720 I'm at Urican? First of all, just Okay, you already 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:50.760 explained that he was a guy like were you. Was 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.360 he approachable at all? Or was like when he was 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:56.520 in the building, everyone like straightened up and cleaned off 0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:58.880 their desk and pulled out the yo yo. 0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:01.080 And that's how I thought it, I was supposed to 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:02.800 be until I met him, and then I realized that 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:04.560 he was cooler than any of us, you know. And 0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:06.600 he could he was known him. He could drink any 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.320 of the rock stars under the table. He could party 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:10.440 with the best of him. 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:12.640 What was his best story to you? 0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:13.400 Oh? 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:18.360 His best story so many. 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:19.960 So he told me a story about when he was 0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:23.719 at mixed wedding to Bianca, which one he was the best, 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:27.000 He was the best man. And it was in the 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.359 south of France, beautiful day, and he tells me they're 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:33.160 having a reception outdoors and everybody's there, all the local 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:36.319 officials are there, the mayor, chief of police, everybody else. 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:42.160 And he says, Keith's walking around with a bag of blow. 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:46.040 Of course he's this chessut. 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:48.600 Using one hand to shovel it into his face, right, 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:51.240 and I hang, you know, and the and he literally 0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:54.360 bumps into the chief of police of whatever it is 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.359 niece or whatever town they're in. I remember it. And 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.640 so the chief of police says to I'm in French 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:02.640 because I'm spoke French. He spoke a lot of languages, 0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:04.880 I think, and he says to him something I'm going 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:08.000 to mess up to French. But he says kiss pudre, right, 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.880 which I think means what is this powder? Right? And 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:16.080 am it goes, oh, you know what, of course in French. 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:20.360 But he says, uh, this is they're not only musicians also, 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:22.960 they're clowns. And he starts pulling this stuff out and 0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:24.080 popping it on his face. 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:35.160 Right, Yeah, only if I could do that, right. 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:37.520 But he had stories of Jim Moore, I mean all 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:39.960 the you know, like everybody. I mean, it's it's so 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:46.400 great being around him, you know. I do want to 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.080 get back to how I left Atlantic, by the way, 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:49.200 because that's a great story. 0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:50.319 All right, How did you leave? 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:53.279 I got fired over a poem that I wrote. 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:56.319 Yeah, wow, it's the word get you have a time. 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:01.279 The story goes expecting this. So I was working there. 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:03.360 I had been named almost twenty five years to the 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:05.680 day that I walked in there on July thirty first, 0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:07.400 nineteen seventy nine. It was my first day work in 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:10.919 the Atlantic, and you know, eighteen years old. About twenty 0:36:10.920 --> 0:36:12.640 five years later, I get named chairman and CEO of 0:36:12.640 --> 0:36:14.640 the company. I sold my company, Lava, to them, and 0:36:15.239 --> 0:36:16.919 they offered me the job, and I was It's funny 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:18.719 because my first reaction when they said, you know, you 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:20.160 can actually run the place, I was like, you mean 0:36:20.200 --> 0:36:21.920 I get to decide whether it's a snow day, Like 0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:25.400 are you kidding me? Because I still felt like that 0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:27.480 eighteen year old kid. You know, this is under Doug 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.040 Marsh Now, yeah, he's under dunk ye. No, no, no, 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.759 this was under Leor. Now Leor was now running it 0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:36.279 and Edgar. Yeah, Edgar had bought the company and Leor 0:36:36.360 --> 0:36:39.239 was running it right or years Yeah, So there you go. 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:41.960 So strangely enough, I didn't get along with lee Or. 0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:45.680 I know, thinks what all the guests have been on 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:47.960 the show have their best lee Or imitations. Ever, so 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:50.400 even when you talk, Leor say it in the lee 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:52.080 Or accent, because we'll have a. 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:54.680 Compilation of everyone imitating le Or on the show. 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.000 So this is Leor on the golf course. You're ready, 0:36:57.920 --> 0:36:59.880 Oh my god, did you see how I hit that? 0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:02.759 You cannot get the gop ball any better than that 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:05.320 shot was incredible. That shot was amazing. 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:13.600 Nos, Like I'm talking about or Trump. We don't want 0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:15.560 you to do the President of the United States or 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:16.600 New York going. 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:20.360 Let me see, let me do it different. Okay. But 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:22.759 by the way, I had the misfortune of playing nine 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:26.319 holes with Trump about six or seven years ago. It's 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.080 a horrible experience. But anyway, Okay, we come back. We're 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:29.880 gonna come back. Okay. 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:33.759 So wait, can I ask you? In order to make 0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:34.200 it to. 0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:39.640 That big money level, am I going to have to 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:40.760 learn how to play golf? 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:41.520 Oh? 0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.200 I think you're doing okay. I mean, I don't know 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:46.160 who your accounting is, but if you're not, you should 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:47.080 probably get a new one. 0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:52.319 Powers talking about I'm talking about adding extra zeros to 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:55.440 my bank account because that's the one common denominator that 0:37:56.200 --> 0:37:58.960 all my peers now that are jumping to that film, 0:37:59.360 --> 0:38:02.680 that are making successful film and Louise Cliff jumped to 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:06.960 the other side of the mountain. They're all suddenly like playing. 0:38:07.080 --> 0:38:11.680 And I'm not Puff doesn't play golf, does he? 0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:12.640 He does music video? 0:38:12.760 --> 0:38:15.440 So you never mentioned it to me? 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:18.359 Do you like golf? Wer do you know that's the 0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:20.000 language of the well. 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:22.880 No, no, I like golf. It's a really fun sport. 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:25.920 And you know, I actually broke kid Rock as a 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:28.480 result of a golf game. So it's been it's it's 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:31.120 very good for business. You know, it's because think about it, 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.160 you're out there for four hours, you're walking around, you're socializing. 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:36.920 You know, it's it's beautiful. You're walking around on grass 0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:40.239 and there's like trees and water and birds and ship 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:43.680 it's nice. And that's something. When you hit a golf 0:38:43.680 --> 0:38:46.600 ball correctly, which doesn't happen that often for even the 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:48.920 best pros, they'll say, like you know, they don't actually like. 0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:51.799 But when you actually pure the golf ball, you can 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:54.520 feel the ball compressed because you know that's physics, right, 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:57.000 The ball compresses and then explodes out. The energy explodes 0:38:57.000 --> 0:39:00.040 out the other side, and you can actually feel the 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.040 ball compress against the club through your hands and into 0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.680 your soul. I mean, it is like being connected to 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:08.279 the center of the fucking universe. And and then you 0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:11.600 get unlike other sports, nobody hits you, nobody tackles. You 0:39:11.719 --> 0:39:13.960 don't have to run, you don't have to catch anything. 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:17.080 You just stand there and admire your work as the 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:21.040 sails out over the horizon and lands gently on the green. 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.880 I mean it's a feeling, that is, it's our gasmic. 0:39:23.920 --> 0:39:25.680 I'm telling you do need a couple of coins though. 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:27.720 That is the sport that you need coins for, because 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:29.240 you got to get into the golf course. 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:31.880 But you're fine, okay, Well you can play public and 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:32.400 warm up. 0:39:32.520 --> 0:39:34.000 I used to play public golf courses all the time 0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:37.879 before free or just well yeah, I mean you gotta 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:38.279 pay something. 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:41.040 I like playing golf. I'm not gonna say I'm good 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:42.759 at it, but I do like playing. 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:49.560 Black defying me. I like to play golf. I've had 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:54.080 a couple of Well, I haven't a man. 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:55.200 You gotta wait for a man. 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:56.799 I don't wait. But I'm just saying it's nice to 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:57.520 deal with a partner. 0:39:57.600 --> 0:39:59.319 Okay, so let's go play some golf. I will post 0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:05.160 it on our Instagram. We're gonna go do it. I'll 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:06.919 take you on playing the snow because it's getting Coldut 0:40:06.920 --> 0:40:07.399 I don't care. 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:12.520 He judged potential business partners or people that you're gonna 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.279 work with based on their golf game. 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:17.480 No, I mean, I don't care how somebody plays as 0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:19.399 long as they don't play slow. That's if you're starting out, 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:20.239 just don't play slow. 0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:20.360 You know. 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:22.080 I mean, nobody cares if you're good or bad or whatever. 0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:24.880 Everybody's pretty wpped up in their own ship. But you know, 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:26.799 you just like keep it moving, and you know, it's 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:28.960 just it's a fun it's a fun game. It's extremely 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.440 frustrating game too, by the way. It's it's the craziest 0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:34.240 thing because some days you can or you go from. 0:40:34.040 --> 0:40:34.480 Hole to hole. 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:36.680 You could play like Tiger Woods. One hole in the 0:40:36.719 --> 0:40:40.080 next hole, you're playing like super Sales, you know. So, yeah, 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.759 it's really weird. What a reference. I know, I gotta 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.839 tell you the poem story before. Yes, so I wasn't 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:50.840 getting along with Lee or right, I don't know. I 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:53.640 found it ironic that his name was liar, you know 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:57.799 what I mean. And one irony was killing me day 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.400 to day. So we didn't get a lot, and uh, 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:03.840 it was a very frustrating experience, you know. It was 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:05.680 it was a fun time and I signed Hailey Williams 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:07.719 back that it was called Paramore right and it was 0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:09.560 you know, I was only chairman of Atlantic for about 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:11.080 a year, but it was good. It was you know. 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:14.560 I loved the was it? What was it that was? 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:17.000 I'm gonna say two thousand and. 0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:20.920 Three or four so, ok okay before you guys. 0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:23.719 No no, no, no, no, no, no, two thousand and 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:25.279 five probably whatever right around there. 0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:26.960 That was when we signed. I was in my group, 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.720 little brother. We signed like oh four five. 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:32.600 I think I didn't fuck that up for you anyway. 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:34.560 It was or it was kind of already fun up 0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:35.440 before we got to use it. 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.120 Got it, okay, dodge that bullet, okay, so. 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.400 Wouldn't be funny. This was like not even a real podcast. 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:48.600 There was revenge for that anyway. Go ahead, a big 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:52.280 Sun present you for the revenge forgetting Yeah. 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:54.920 My god, everyone's always out to get the Jews. 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:58.319 Anyway, so it's going to replace us, That's what I hear. 0:41:58.400 --> 0:41:59.120 I had to go there. 0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:09.960 So yeah, quiet, you've ever been to you? So I'm 0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:10.600 not feeling well. 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:13.359 So I'm just laying back and Jason's got just doing 0:42:13.360 --> 0:42:13.680 it for me. 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:16.120 Yeah, solidarity, So. 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:19.759 Ask you an old question. We just go back real quick. 0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:22.279 Not an old question, a question from your coming up 0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:26.840 because I thought I read something the poems the poem 0:42:27.320 --> 0:42:28.360 the poem, sorry. 0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:29.480 But don't forget you. 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:31.239 I won't forget it. 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:32.239 Write it down. 0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:35.440 So anyway, So here it is about a year and 0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:38.920 a quarter into my you know, tenure as chairman and CEO. 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.480 It is my favorite record company in the world, Atlantic Records. 0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:47.080 And Edgar was going to be honored by the u 0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:49.400 j A at a music industry lunch and that's a 0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:51.719 Humanitarian of the Year award or whatever I think it was. 0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:57.320 And so is the United Jewish Appeal, major Jewish charity. Wonderful, 0:42:57.320 --> 0:43:01.720 wonderful charity. Anyway, So there was a kickoff breakfast and 0:43:01.760 --> 0:43:04.360 the chairman of all the different companies came and so 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:06.440 I pledged a bunch of money to the uj and 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:08.799 Edgar's honor, which was appropriate thing to do, and also 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:11.960 I think it's a great charity. So a couple of 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:14.840 weeks go by and I get a call from I 0:43:14.920 --> 0:43:17.719 don't know, somebody from the UJA, Steve Stu whatever his 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:19.560 name was, right, and I'm like, hey, what's up? And 0:43:19.560 --> 0:43:21.560 he goes, you know, you gave us a bunch of money. 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.040 You know, you get a full page ad in the booklet, 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:26.920 you know, but it's it's due tomorrow. You know, what 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.000 do you wanted to say? So off the top of 0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:32.239 my head. Now, bear in mind, our stock had just 0:43:32.320 --> 0:43:35.360 gone public and wasn't doing so well. You probably remember 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:39.320 that one of music group Stock, the IPO had just happened. 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:41.120 So off the top of my head, I said, how 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:45.200 about this. Roses are reddish, violets are bluish. Our stocks 0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:54.160 in the toilet. But at least we're both Jewish. So 0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:57.520 I was Steve, he goes, are you sure about that? 0:43:57.560 --> 0:43:58.960 I was like, oh, you said, I have twenty four hours. 0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:00.680 Let me let me run it by few people, right, 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.160 So I read it by a few people. Everybody's reaction 0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:06.360 was the same as yours. And I even called up 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:08.480 Edgar's brother in law, who was working at the company 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.920 at that time, and I said to him, as it 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:12.279 was Alex, I said, Alex, what do you think? 0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:12.400 Like? 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:14.520 I mean, you know, I tried to rewrite it, but 0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:17.160 you can't. It's perfect, right, You couldn't change one word 0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:21.400 in that. It's poetic perfection. So I call Alex like 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:24.280 he says, listen, Edgar has a wonderful sense of humor. 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:26.040 I know he's going to love this. In fact, I'm 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:28.560 so sure that if he doesn't, I'll take the heat. 0:44:28.640 --> 0:44:30.880 I was like, okay, So I had the art department 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:32.840 mock up the ad with some roses on the page 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:36.600 and stuff, you know. And what I didn't anticipate was 0:44:36.719 --> 0:44:39.200 that people at the lunch. You know, it's not the 0:44:39.239 --> 0:44:41.279 most exciting lunch in the world, right, I mean, you 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:43.839 got some speeches there, they're a little bit ponderous. And 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:45.960 so what you do in these in these lunches, you 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:49.640 go through the booklet, right, and every ads the same Edgar, congratulations, 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:52.560 you're wonderful. What are You're a fantastic honor umanitarian? This 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:55.319 that yours schmoozer, You're fantastic. And then you come to 0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:59.279 my ad and people were like spitting out their food. 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:01.800 You try to to try and not to laugh because 0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:04.200 everything's quiet because the guy's up there making a speech 0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:07.200 about a serious issue, right about their helping people, and 0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:09.520 you know that wherever they are, the things they're doing, 0:45:09.560 --> 0:45:12.319 and you know, and you can't be just breaking out 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:17.799 and then make matters worse. The Daily News ran my 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.080 poem under the headline Edgar can't even get respect from 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:28.120 his own CEO. Yeah, so I guess that didn't Unfortunately, 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:30.480 I didn't have a poetry clause in my contract, so 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:33.040 I was, I was paid. You know, I got fired 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:34.600 and I got paid out and then I went to 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:37.560 run Virgin, and you know that was a fun time too, 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:40.440 so you know, and actually when I took over Virgin, 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:42.279 I'll show you this I took over. You can't see 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:43.400 it on the radio, but I'm gonna show it to 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.080 you anyway. When I took over Virgin, which was shortly thereafter, 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:47.719 the hottest movie in the country was the fourty year 0:45:47.719 --> 0:45:50.439 old Virgin. Everybody remembers that iconic poster with his face 0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:52.680 on it, right, So I decided, rather than run a 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:55.960 normal announcement Jason Flaming, chairman and CEO Virgin Records, I 0:45:56.000 --> 0:46:00.200 decided to take a picture as him. Right, So I 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:03.480 bought a wig and uh, and I bought a shirt 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:05.960 and this is what it. I can pull this out 0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:07.560 of my walle to show it to you. I ran 0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:09.799 this ad full page in Billboard and hits. 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:19.200 He pulled, except I mean, come on, can we use 0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:21.960 that photo advertised. 0:46:21.440 --> 0:46:25.680 To use it for whatever you want? That was my thing. Yeah, 0:46:25.840 --> 0:46:27.400 I think I bet the card in the process. I 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:29.560 can get you a clean one, though, But yeah, so 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:31.719 it was. It was really a fun time. Virgin was great. 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.799 You know, we turned that place around. That was you know, 0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:37.840 red jumpsuit apparatus was the first thing I signed, actually 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:39.800 the day after I got there. And then Katy Perry 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:41.960 and you know, the thirty second of Mars was amazing. 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:44.759 You know. Jared Leto is a force of nature. That guy. 0:46:45.200 --> 0:46:47.399 He's one of those rare people that everything he does, 0:46:47.440 --> 0:46:50.600 like Jamie Fox, right, everything he does is perfect. It's 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:52.160 like annoying almost. 0:46:51.800 --> 0:46:55.759 Right, well, not every single but yeah, yeah, I got. 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:58.239 That same watching Hamilton. You know what the worst thing 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:02.600 about going to see Hamilton is, I'll tell you right now. 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:05.480 You sit there and you just feel I feel so inadequate, 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.480 you know, I mean not only because of the the 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:13.680 unreal accomplishment of Lynn Manuel Moritta writing and producing and 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:17.680 everything and doing everything around that show, but also Hamilton himself. 0:47:17.800 --> 0:47:19.959 You're saying the way I haven't done ship in my life. 0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:21.920 Oh my god. People were like, hey, you don't pretty good. 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:23.600 I'm like, nah, I haven't done anything. It sucks. 0:47:23.920 --> 0:47:26.600 So, yeah, what a thing is listening to j Z 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:30.440 likes about how well? 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:35.799 Yeahology, you know, but and yeah, and Hamilton, I mean, 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:37.600 good for you, by the way, I mean it really is. 0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.600 And and by the way, there's the there's a rebelliousness ironically, 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:42.360 right that we had to go back to the founding 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:45.839 fathers to get some rebelliousness back in our culture. And 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:49.200 it is. But it's it's so nice to see how 0:47:49.280 --> 0:47:53.120 that thing has become, you know what it is, because 0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:58.000 it's so important and it's so profoundly it's just I mean, 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:00.839 it's perfect. It's one of the only when I went 0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:02.799 to see that and people are like, well, is the 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:04.319 first time, and people are like, is it as good 0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:06.600 as the hype? I'm like, you know, it's probably the 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:10.360 best thing since either Prints at the bottom line or 0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:11.480 Zeppelin at the garden? 0:48:11.640 --> 0:48:16.840 Did you see Hamilton pre hype or like two thousand 0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:17.920 dollars a ticket hype? 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:20.960 So here's what happened is amazing. I went my son 0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:24.960 is in the business, Mike Flom, and he's really excited. 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:26.560 I'm on your show, by the way. But anyway, because 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:31.080 he's a student of and he was working when he 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:33.200 was sixteen years old, he started working with Roys to 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:36.200 five nine, and so we were down in the studio 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.600 with Royce in Atlanta, and I was I started talking 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:41.920 to him about Hamilton and he goes, this is when 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.000 Hamilton had first come out, and he was like, oh, 0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:47.799 that guy called me the other day, Lynn Manuel Miranda guy. 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:49.799 I was like, what'd you say? He goes, I didn't 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:51.000 know who he was. I didn't take his call. I 0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:54.040 was like, holy shit, dude, Like are you like, let's 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:56.279 get on the phone and get us in, you know, 0:48:56.360 --> 0:48:59.440 like and so he called and Lynn got us tickets 0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:02.960 and I went with with with his manager as well 0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:06.480 as my son Mike, to like flying to Ce Hamilton. 0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:08.759 So it was pretty early on and then Lynn took 0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:11.279 us back stage afterwards because you know Lynn, well, you 0:49:11.360 --> 0:49:13.640 know better than anybody who loves he loves the great one. 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.000 Then Royce's is one of the real greats and hip 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:19.439 hop in my opinions. So so we got to see 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.880 it as his guests, and it was just a magical, 0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:24.480 magical experience, you know. 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:30.319 So I need to know with you being in the 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:33.960 position that you're in as far as being in the 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:40.640 business by that point, like thirty plus years, running three 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:47.080 labels and pretty much signing like you know, people's highlights, Yeah, 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:53.360 how the hell did you sort of take a detour 0:49:53.560 --> 0:49:58.680 into social justice? Because I because I feel like if 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:00.640 you if you're going to do something, you got to 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:03.000 do it well and really put your heart into it, 0:50:03.080 --> 0:50:06.120 not just like jack of all trades, master of none. 0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:06.600 So. 0:50:07.560 --> 0:50:10.000 But the thing is is that your you know, your 0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:13.680 your history shows that you're you know, you're deeper than 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:17.360 one footage plant planet, deeply into the music business and 0:50:17.840 --> 0:50:21.279 and well but you know, your work with social justice 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:22.680 shouldn't be scoffed at. 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:23.760 Either because. 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:29.160 Like why I'm not saying why because like people behind 0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:33.719 in the boardroom shouldn't care about the you know, the 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:37.080 have nots, but what like what happened? Like what what 0:50:37.160 --> 0:50:39.160 compels you to even care? 0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:41.480 Can you just add a little layer of who your 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:44.399 parents were to even have your up that situation because 0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:46.560 the fact that you so didn't have to go this way, 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:48.520 it's kind of ill to me because I know we 0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:51.080 haven't discussed where you came from and which I heard 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:53.359 your father did some amazing things in a business world, 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:56.040 so it's really like you really did not have to 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:57.280 do this, right. 0:50:57.400 --> 0:50:59.799 Yeah, My dad was My dad was my hero. You know. 0:50:59.840 --> 0:51:02.239 He he was the son of immigrants, grew up as 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:03.759 poor as you could be. He was so poor that 0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:05.520 back then in Brooklyn when he was growing up, they'd 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:07.600 give your first months free if you moved, and they 0:51:07.600 --> 0:51:12.160 would move every month. That's how poor he was. And he, 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:14.239 you know, he went to City College at night. And 0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:16.120 it's a great story. Actually, when he got out of 0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:18.640 the army, he wrote a letter to Harvard Law School 0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:21.440 and he said, I don't have any money, and I 0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:24.480 don't have a college degree, but I'm the best thing 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:27.319 since sliced bread, and I'm a soldier and if you 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:29.440 let me in, you won't regret it. And they gave 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:31.680 him a full scholarship to Harvard Law School, and he 0:51:31.800 --> 0:51:34.600 became that's all. That's not anymore. 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:36.080 And I also thought you were going to do some 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:37.360 roses a red couple. 0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:40.880 That was all me. But he no, he you know, 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.480 that was when we actually used to treat our gis 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:48.759 as with respect, rights, as as they should be you 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:52.000 know treated. But but don't get me started on that. 0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:55.640 But yeah, so he became one of the greatest lawyers 0:51:55.680 --> 0:51:58.600 of the twentieth century. And you know, there's a chapter 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:00.920 in Outliers about him, the three less as a Joe Flom. 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:04.520 But moreover, he told me and my brother, do whatever 0:52:04.560 --> 0:52:06.160 you want to do. Try to be the best at it, 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:07.879 but just make the world a better place. He says, 0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.440 if you do that, that's that's success. That's what I 0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:12.120 call success. And I wanted to be a success in 0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:15.759 his eyes. So so yeah, so he you know, he 0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:21.320 was very driven to make the world a better place himself. 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:25.319 He was very strong on civil rights and. 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:30.200 On quality acquisition to like he created a concept or 0:52:30.200 --> 0:52:30.600 something like that. 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:34.520 Yeah, he he, well, he basically pioneered hostile takeovers and 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:36.440 proxy contests and all that stuff. And it was at 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:38.560 a time when you know, Jewish lawyers couldn't get jobs 0:52:38.560 --> 0:52:40.640 at Wall Street firms. So he went to a firm 0:52:40.640 --> 0:52:43.080 that had four he was the fifth lawyer, and they 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:45.560 had no clients, you know, but they were you know, 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.440 they're trying to figure it out. And then he found 0:52:47.440 --> 0:52:50.759 this niche and and by the time the Wall Street 0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:53.239 firm started getting into it was too late. He was dominant, 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.480 you know. So and then he built his law firm 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:58.960 up into one of the most powerful in the world. 0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:02.120 And you know, but he did it. He always did 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:04.840 it the right way. He never cut corners. He you know, 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:08.040 he treated people with respect, and you know, I remember 0:53:08.120 --> 0:53:11.319 him defending you know, cases, and he did. They did 0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:13.319 a lot. They still do a ton of pro bowl work, 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:15.320 including for the Innocence Project. By the way, Scadden is 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:17.279 the firm. It was Scatten Off, Slate, mar and flom 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:21.000 And because he was the young guy when they started. 0:53:21.560 --> 0:53:24.440 But yeah, so he I remember him when he defended 0:53:24.440 --> 0:53:27.440 the They were trying to get rid of evolution, the 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:29.960 teaching of evolution in in one of those states, Kansas 0:53:30.000 --> 0:53:32.040 or something, and he sent his Scatten like team of 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:33.719 lawyers out there and he was so excited when he 0:53:33.920 --> 0:53:35.400 then he came back and they won. You know, that 0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:39.440 was his ship, you know. So anyway, so yeah, so 0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:42.879 I grew up. I grew up with him and my mom. 0:53:42.920 --> 0:53:44.840 You know, my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen. 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:46.400 When she used to remind me all the time, especially 0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:49.160 when I was dropping out of college. But anyway, so yeah, 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:54.400 that was my mother. Was she was. She was doing embarrassing. 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:55.920 She was actually a decorated when she met my dad. 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:57.719 That's how she met my dad. When he first got 0:53:57.719 --> 0:53:59.640 any money was because he was in an accident. He 0:53:59.640 --> 0:54:01.760 got hit by a taxi and was in the hospital 0:54:01.800 --> 0:54:03.320 for a long time and got some money, so he 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:05.319 hired a decorator, and that's how he met my mom. 0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:07.320 So yeah, you know, wherever your mind goes there, I 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:13.239 guess I can go. But anyway, anyway, So yeah, that's 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:16.200 how I grew up. And then But what happened was 0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:21.040 that in ninety two or three I read a story 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:22.960 in the newspaper about a kid who was serving fifteen 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:25.160 years to life for a non violent first defense cocaine 0:54:25.200 --> 0:54:28.040 possession charge in New York State, and he was in 0:54:28.120 --> 0:54:31.080 maximum security prison. And the reason it was in the 0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:32.719 newspaper was because his mother had been trying to get 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:35.440 clemency from Governor Cuomo. This was the first Governor Cuomo, 0:54:35.800 --> 0:54:39.239 Mario Cuomo, and she had had She was just a 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:41.759 homemaker from upstate New York, from Rome, New York, and 0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:45.840 she had gotten letters from the judge. The warden, Geraldine 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:48.120 Ferraro had written a letter on her behalf right. So 0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:51.240 that's why it was in the newspaper because Cuomo turned 0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:54.279 down Ferraro, who was asking for clemency for this kid 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:56.560 who had been in for eight and something years already 0:54:57.000 --> 0:55:01.080 for non Like I said, let's just reflect non violent defense, right, 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:02.400 cocaine possession? 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:05.960 Can you for our listeners that don't know. Could you 0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:08.879 explain the history of the Rockefeller law so that they 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:12.960 know why New York's laws have been tougher the early nineties. 0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:15.040 It's odd, you know when you think about it, but 0:55:15.120 --> 0:55:17.840 New York has some of the worst laws in the country. 0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:20.080 I mean, you would think that the Rockefeller laws would 0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:22.160 be more, you know, something that you would see in 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:24.560 Mississippi or Alabama or something like that. But the fact 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:27.160 is the Rockefeller drug laws came up under Governor Nelson 0:55:27.239 --> 0:55:29.400 Rockefeller at the time when everybody was getting tough on 0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:31.600 drugs and war on drugs and all this stuff. And 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:35.120 you know, they made it extremely. 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:36.480 They put it in the community. 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:40.520 Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's that too. But yeah, So 0:55:40.560 --> 0:55:44.799 they made these crazy mandatory sentencing laws, and basically they 0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:46.919 took all the power away from the judges and gave 0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:49.920 it to the prosecutors. So the only way out of 0:55:49.960 --> 0:55:53.720 a mandatory sentence is to rat on somebody else. And 0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:56.080 because and so the prosecutors literally have all the powers. 0:55:56.080 --> 0:55:57.279 So they could sit there and say, you, look, what 0:55:57.280 --> 0:55:59.160 do you want to do? Or you can plead guilty, right, 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:01.480 but even if it's something you didn't do otherwise you're 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.040 looking at this mandatory sentence of you know, could be 0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:08.600 decades in prison, and you know, you never want to 0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:11.400 find yourself in that position. But and judges in so 0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:14.399 many of these cases, judges as they're sentencing somebody will say, 0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:16.840 I wish I didn't have to do this, you know. 0:56:16.880 --> 0:56:18.640 And I had one guy that I was talking to 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:21.920 who had been sentenced to I don't know, twenty or 0:56:21.920 --> 0:56:23.680 more years in prison than he was out now, and 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:25.120 he said to me, you know, that was the thing 0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:26.919 to kill me was when the judge said I wish 0:56:26.960 --> 0:56:29.799 I could give you probation. And I'm sitting there going, wait, 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:32.799 I can accept the sentence, but not when I mean, like, 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:36.040 how's that working? You know what I mean, like, yeah, 0:56:36.320 --> 0:56:40.400 it's just it's really sickening. So anyway, in this particular case, 0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:44.600 I just read this story and I was I was flabbergasted, 0:56:44.680 --> 0:56:48.839 you know, like I was like, I didn't know about 0:56:48.880 --> 0:56:51.640 these mandatory sentencing laws, as most people don't until they 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:54.640 get caught up in it. So I contacted a music 0:56:54.640 --> 0:56:56.839 business lawyer, a defense lawyer I knew. The only defense 0:56:56.880 --> 0:56:58.279 lay I knew was a guy Naed Bob Coleena. He 0:56:58.320 --> 0:57:01.239 represented Stone Double Pilots and skid. Oh, and they used 0:57:01.239 --> 0:57:06.840 to get in trouble a lot, as you remember. Yeah, 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:08.360 So I called Bob. I was like, Bob, can you 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:10.400 do anybody this? He says, nothing you can do about it. 0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:12.319 It's Rockefeller drug laws is just the way it is. 0:57:12.480 --> 0:57:14.160 I was like, well, can you talk to this woman 0:57:14.200 --> 0:57:16.080 on the phone, because I'd called missus Lennon. That was 0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:19.480 her name, was in the newspaper, Shirley Lennon. I just 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:21.080 called her and I said, look, you probably think I'm 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.840 some freak from New York, but I got to do something. 0:57:23.840 --> 0:57:25.160 I don't have a lot of money because I didn't 0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:26.520 back then, but I'll send you what I can, maybe 0:57:26.640 --> 0:57:29.320 get a new appeal or something. And she said on Jason, 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:32.240 He goes, we've exhausted. We've spent all of our savings 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:34.520 on lawyers, and we've exhausted all of our appeals and 0:57:34.640 --> 0:57:37.000 this was our last hope. And she says, you know, 0:57:38.280 --> 0:57:40.160 crazy thing is there was a murderer who went to 0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:42.520 the prison same prison as my son, after my son, 0:57:42.560 --> 0:57:44.480 and he's out and my son's not eligible parole for 0:57:44.480 --> 0:57:45.280 another seven years. 0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:49.080 And I was like, and this just for cocaine powdered possessions. 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:52.400 Yeah, cocaine powder possession. It was four point two ounces, right, 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:54.320 so it wasn't a little bit. But the fact is 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:58.880 even still you know the cliff, there's a cliff right 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:01.120 over four ounces and York State possession is an A 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:03.640 one felony. So it's like, you know, it's like murder 0:58:03.680 --> 0:58:07.760 one two to four ounces is an A two. But 0:58:07.880 --> 0:58:09.320 he had four point two ounces. 0:58:09.560 --> 0:58:12.400 Now, was there a difference if it's powder cocaine or 0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:15.840 if it's crack. I mean, back in ninety one, we're. 0:58:16.000 --> 0:58:18.440 Well, we're talking. I don't know exactly what the difference 0:58:18.560 --> 0:58:21.400 was back then. That was when crack was first coming up, right, 0:58:21.440 --> 0:58:24.080 But in the federal system there's a huge difference. And 0:58:24.120 --> 0:58:26.480 I actually worked on the legislation that rolled back the 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:29.960 mandatory sentencing of laws with crack because crack used to 0:58:29.960 --> 0:58:32.920 be treated one hundred times more severely than coke. And 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.680 there's a very simple reason why, and I don't have 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:37.200 to tell you what it is, because it's lost smart 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:40.920 people in the road. So yeah, So I worked with 0:58:40.960 --> 0:58:43.560 Senator Durbin and others on that bill, which was the 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:47.680 first mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years, and 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:49.440 the best deal we could make with the Republicans was 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:51.200 to change it from one hundred and one to eighteen 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:53.520 to one. And the worst part of it is that 0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:56.560 it wasn't done retroactively, which always blows my mind. Like, 0:58:56.600 --> 0:58:59.280 if we're acknowledging that a law is wrong, how is 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:01.560 it wrong now? But it wasn't wrong before? It doesn't 0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:05.560 make any sense. And I worked very actively on the 0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:08.880 clemencies that President Obama granted to so many of those 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:10.960 people that are serving what are illegal sentences. 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:13.440 So you're saying that once it was turned around, they 0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:17.280 decided to not even go back to reverse all those 0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:19.400 wrongful convictions. 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:21.920 No, it was, like I said, it wasn't retroactively. So 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:24.240 if you were, if you were so misfortunate as to 0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:26.760 be busted before the law was changed, you're gonna you're 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:28.880 still sitting there in prison to eat that. And I was, 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.400 you know, I was really trying hard to get the 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:35.400 Obama administration to grant clemency to all of those people 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:38.080 unless they had committed some terrible crime while they're in prison, 0:59:38.120 --> 0:59:41.280 because again, it doesn't make any sense. How can you 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:43.080 shade it? How can you look that guy in the 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:46.040 eye and go dude, you should have been busted a 0:59:46.080 --> 0:59:48.680 few weeks later. You know, you'd be out, you'd be 0:59:48.720 --> 0:59:50.600 home with your family, you'd have four years instead of 0:59:50.640 --> 0:59:53.560 twenty five whatever it would be. It's you know, it's 0:59:53.600 --> 0:59:56.600 literally was reduced by eighty something percent the sentences, but 0:59:57.120 --> 0:59:59.480 those people are still in something. Now. President Obama did 0:59:59.480 --> 1:00:02.480 grant clemens to a lot of them, and you know, 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:06.000 I worked with the NACDL and other organizations on those clemencies, 1:00:06.040 --> 1:00:10.120 and you know, he granted over seventeen hundred clemencies. Not 1:00:10.240 --> 1:00:12.000 all of them were crack sentences, but a lot of 1:00:12.040 --> 1:00:15.160 them were. But there's still thousands of other people who 1:00:15.200 --> 1:00:17.680 were still stuck in there, and obviously they're going to 1:00:17.680 --> 1:00:19.920 be for the foreseeable future if they're in the federal system. 1:00:20.200 --> 1:00:24.680 But back to the original story. So, so Bob as 1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:28.720 a favorite of me, calls missus Lennon and he says 1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:31.360 to me, look, I don't have any hope for this, 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:33.400 but I'm gonna read the transcripts as a favor to 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:35.280 you because I was a good client. I guess right, 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.400 and he takes the case pro bono, and five months 1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:41.880 later we ended up in a court house, a courtroom 1:00:41.880 --> 1:00:44.440 in Malone, New York by the Canadian border, and I 1:00:44.560 --> 1:00:47.000 was sitting there. They brought Stephen in in shackles. I 1:00:47.080 --> 1:00:49.320 was like, who is he? Charles Manson? This isiculous. Legs 1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:51.360 were chained together, his hands were changed to his waist, 1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:57.080 and I sat there holding Missus Lennon's hand, and the judge, 1:00:57.200 --> 1:00:59.160 who I thought was never going to give us a 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:04.200 break because he looked like a conservative guy, he said something, 1:01:04.280 --> 1:01:07.360 I haven't heard anything in this courtroom today understatute this 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:09.720 section app But he was all this legal mumba joh. 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:11.160 I don't know what he's talking about. And then he 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:13.680 goes but under the power vested in me that is 1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:17.919 stated in New York, the motion is granted. Whoa thing down? 1:01:17.960 --> 1:01:21.200 And I was like, what the fuck? And then Bob 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:23.240 comes over. I was like, Bob, what happened? Because we won? 1:01:23.400 --> 1:01:25.120 I was like, get the fuck out of me. Way 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:30.800 so he so. So Bob found this angle right, which 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:34.920 is that he and I don't even know how this worked. 1:01:35.400 --> 1:01:38.240 But there were two kids in the car when Steven 1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:40.720 got arrested. He was driving and his friend was in 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:43.280 the pastor's seat. They got pulled. One of them got 1:01:43.280 --> 1:01:45.400 out to take a leak apparently, and the cops saw 1:01:45.440 --> 1:01:47.640 him and came over and searched the car, found the 1:01:47.800 --> 1:01:51.280 found the coke under the seat. Whose is it? Most 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:53.840 kids say, it's not mine. Well, everybody should know out there, 1:01:54.000 --> 1:01:55.720 if you're in a car and the drugs are in 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:59.920 the car, it's yours, right if everybody everybody in the 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:01.040 it could be twenty of you in the car and 1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:04.040 be a clown car. Okay, it belongs to everybody, and 1:02:04.120 --> 1:02:04.920 all of it belongs to. 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:10.440 This possession, not ownership. That's that's what. So how much 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:11.439 coke was it though? 1:02:11.680 --> 1:02:15.960 Like four point two ounces, so just over the cliff right, 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:21.280 just over the limit. It's really the terrible, terrible coincidence there. So, 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:23.760 so both kids said it wasn't mine. Both kids pleaded 1:02:23.760 --> 1:02:26.080 it and sin Steven's lawyer told him, will I will 1:02:26.120 --> 1:02:27.880 win this case where I'll hang up my shingle? Right, 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:29.880 he should have pleaded guilty because he was guilty, but 1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:32.040 the other kid was not guilty. The other kid was 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:35.040 a passenger, and both of them ended up getting fifteen 1:02:35.080 --> 1:02:40.160 years to life. Now after he went to prison. Yeah, 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:43.880 so after he went to prison, Stephen wrote letters saying listen, 1:02:44.280 --> 1:02:47.480 this was me it wasn't him, but their response was 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:49.800 too late. You know, you should have said so before. 1:02:50.600 --> 1:02:54.160 So they eventually allowed the other kid, whose name I 1:02:54.160 --> 1:02:56.280 don't remember, to plead down to an A two fel 1:02:56.280 --> 1:02:58.680 and I think he was released after eight years for 1:02:58.840 --> 1:03:02.760 something he didn't do, by the way, God dude. And 1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:05.400 then my guy Bob went in and said, you can't 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:08.479 treat the same crime. It's the same crime. You can't 1:03:08.480 --> 1:03:10.360 treat the two guys differently for the same crime. They 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:13.040 both picted the same crime. Basically, you know, I'm garbing 1:03:13.120 --> 1:03:14.640 it was twenty five years ago, but that was the 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:19.320 basic argument, and it worked, you know, and Stephen got out, you. 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:21.440 Can't send us one guy to eight years and another 1:03:21.440 --> 1:03:22.960 guy to twenty for the same thing. 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:26.840 Yeah, fifteen the life but yeah, so you know. So anyway, 1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:29.800 it was a cathartic experience, as you can imagine. And 1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:32.360 I said, holy shit, that was the best feeling I know. 1:03:32.560 --> 1:03:35.160 I mean, losing my virginity was good, but even this 1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:37.600 was even better, you know what I mean, By the way, 1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:40.360 I lost our virginity at a yes cozer the matters 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:47.640 of course, seventy six bases, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:49.680 that would have been funk here audience. 1:03:50.360 --> 1:03:53.520 Yeah, yes, I was like, yo, do it. 1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:56.200 Was actually in the skybox in the bathroom. Yeah, it 1:03:56.240 --> 1:03:59.600 was a romathic but anyway, but the that's how I 1:03:59.640 --> 1:04:01.600 knew I was ended up working at Atlantic because yes, it 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:05.760 was a land So anyway, So what I did then 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:08.760 was I, I, you know, I experience, you know, hit 1:04:08.840 --> 1:04:10.800 me so hard that I did some research. I found 1:04:10.800 --> 1:04:13.520 out about Families Against Mandatory Minimums, which you talked about before, 1:04:13.560 --> 1:04:15.240 a fam which had just started. I called them up. 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:17.360 I joined their board. That led me to the Drug 1:04:17.400 --> 1:04:20.480 Policy Alliance, the Legal Action Center, and then I saw 1:04:20.520 --> 1:04:22.720 some on TV about the Innocence Project and that's when 1:04:22.720 --> 1:04:26.280 I really like went into overdrive because that hit me. 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.480 This was again, almost twenty five years ago. The Insty 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:30.280 Project had just started and one of their cases was 1:04:30.320 --> 1:04:33.120 on TV and I was like, holy shit, that's even worse, right, 1:04:33.200 --> 1:04:36.520 this is a motherfucker who was innocent and got sentenced 1:04:36.520 --> 1:04:38.880 to death or life in prison or whatever it was. 1:04:39.640 --> 1:04:42.720 And I called them up. And you know, at the time, 1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:45.480 there's only only the two founders working there and maybe 1:04:45.760 --> 1:04:48.760 maybe a I don't know, maybe they had a receptionist 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:51.000 or something. And so you could just call and get 1:04:51.000 --> 1:04:52.160 them on the phone. I went in and met with 1:04:52.200 --> 1:04:54.640 them and I set them all in and I was 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:56.720 and I became the founding board member. And it's really 1:04:56.720 --> 1:05:00.920 become my life's work. I mean, I you know, I 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:04.520 still love music and I love my job, but I 1:05:04.560 --> 1:05:05.480 love this more. 1:05:05.720 --> 1:05:08.680 More than Twisted sistern. This is more important than twist. 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:09.520 Woke up. 1:05:16.840 --> 1:05:19.080 When we were in the elevator before I was to table, 1:05:19.080 --> 1:05:21.120 you were talking that you were in Virginia. 1:05:21.560 --> 1:05:22.720 You were doing some work in Virginia. 1:05:22.840 --> 1:05:26.080 You are a prison in Virginia before you came here yesterday? 1:05:26.240 --> 1:05:28.120 Yesterday? Yeah, what was that about? 1:05:28.360 --> 1:05:28.440 So? 1:05:30.280 --> 1:05:32.000 I do you know I have a podcast now called 1:05:32.000 --> 1:05:36.800 Wrongful Conviction. Yes you do, And on it I interview 1:05:38.520 --> 1:05:41.600 I interview people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:42.520 they didn't commit. 1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:46.280 It's a very heartbreaking podcast. I mean redemption at the end, 1:05:46.320 --> 1:05:49.400 but it's hard to hear people lose those decades. 1:05:49.400 --> 1:05:52.600 Man, Just one story is crazier than the other. And 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:55.000 sometimes I go inside prison and interview people who I 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:58.640 believe to be innocent who need to get out, but 1:05:59.400 --> 1:06:03.480 also on occasion I will. And now my inbox is 1:06:03.480 --> 1:06:05.520 going to be flooded. But you know, I only have 1:06:05.560 --> 1:06:07.520 twenty four hours in a day like anybody else. But 1:06:09.320 --> 1:06:11.120 sometimes if I think I can make a difference, I'll 1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:14.120 take on an individual case that's not an INNOCENTCE project case, 1:06:15.040 --> 1:06:17.360 or I'll just join a team that's already working to 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.760 try to get somebody exonerated and try to connect the dots, 1:06:20.800 --> 1:06:25.080 either with the legal team or with you know, clemency, 1:06:26.200 --> 1:06:28.400 which I've been successful at enough times. You know, I 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:30.720 was saying, I've seen too many miracles to stop believing 1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:33.240 in miracles, and it is a miracle when it works. 1:06:33.640 --> 1:06:38.520 But I've got you know, I've been successful more than 1:06:38.520 --> 1:06:41.680 a few times on taking on the case that I 1:06:41.680 --> 1:06:45.400 see an injustice and actually getting that person freed. 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:46.320 Wow. 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:49.880 Can I ask you do you guys work with prisoners 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:52.520 inside of the prison like as it's personal to me 1:06:52.560 --> 1:06:54.320 because I have a friend who's been inside the New 1:06:54.400 --> 1:06:58.240 Jersey prison system for a while now, highly educated activists 1:06:58.240 --> 1:07:00.640 in a way. And it's funny because does he actually 1:07:00.720 --> 1:07:03.040 sent me a whole essay about what's going on with 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:04.880 the water system that actually had a whole bunch of 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:08.960 water coming to the prison when the water was dirty 1:07:09.000 --> 1:07:10.760 and they never used it. It was bags and bags and 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:12.600 bags and bags of water. So he wrote this essay 1:07:12.600 --> 1:07:16.800 about how they actually had a balloon party and the guards, 1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:18.400 you know, kind of just poured it out at a 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:19.720 time when we're going through what we're going through with 1:07:19.720 --> 1:07:22.080 Puerto Rico, you know, and so you know, he kind 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:23.919 of felt some type of way about that and wrote 1:07:23.920 --> 1:07:26.800 the essay. But I'm curious, is there an opportunity for 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:31.160 prisoners in that way organizational wise to speak and it's 1:07:31.200 --> 1:07:32.600 hard for them to speak out, So I don't know 1:07:32.640 --> 1:07:35.040 if you have any direction with that it turns to 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:37.800 speak out about the issues that are going to the 1:07:37.840 --> 1:07:39.680 wrongful inside of the prison as well. 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:42.080 Yeah, I mean that's a whole other area that I'm 1:07:42.080 --> 1:07:44.600 not an expert on. There are definitely organizations that are 1:07:44.720 --> 1:07:46.960 devoted to that. I know the Correctional Association in New 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:47.840 York is one of. 1:07:47.800 --> 1:07:50.440 Them, and I know the New Jersey prison system is 1:07:50.440 --> 1:07:53.800 a mother Anyway, the reputation weren't all really. 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:55.680 Really is there. 1:07:55.720 --> 1:07:57.120 It's funny because I was like, in my mind, is 1:07:57.160 --> 1:07:59.160 there a top three like states where it's. 1:07:59.040 --> 1:08:00.240 Like were you to go? 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:03.280 You don't want to go to jail, You just don't 1:08:03.280 --> 1:08:03.960 want to be there. 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:08.439 Well, I mean the laced, I mean it's it's you know, look, 1:08:08.480 --> 1:08:12.919 we are in a situation now where we have four 1:08:13.440 --> 1:08:17.080 zero point four percent of the world's population, right, almost 1:08:17.120 --> 1:08:18.800 four and a half percent of the world's population. We 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:21.840 have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. So 1:08:21.960 --> 1:08:24.080 we lock people up at more than five times the 1:08:24.160 --> 1:08:25.880 rate of the rest of the civilized world. Now, chew 1:08:25.960 --> 1:08:29.759 on this one. We lock up black men in America 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:33.120 per capita at a rate that is six times higher 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:36.680 than South Africa at the height of apartheid. Okay, just 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:39.479 fucking chew on that for a second. And then there's women, right, 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:41.519 which is the fastest growing part of the prison population. 1:08:42.120 --> 1:08:45.760 We have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:49.320 So what do you can what kind of conclusions can 1:08:49.360 --> 1:08:49.639 you draw? 1:08:50.920 --> 1:08:55.200 Oh my god, it's look what is it done? 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:57.599 Yeah, or in a lot of cases, a single parent, 1:08:57.680 --> 1:09:00.240 you know, whatever it is, it's it's still devastating to 1:09:00.240 --> 1:09:03.360 the communities, and it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work, 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:07.080 it doesn't promote public safety, it doesn't help anything or 1:09:07.120 --> 1:09:10.400 anybody except the private prison industry, which is only six 1:09:10.400 --> 1:09:12.519 percent of the prisons but still that's too much. It 1:09:12.560 --> 1:09:15.679 should be no private prisons, and you know, prisons should 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:18.760 be focused on rehabilitation. I mean, first of all, we 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.559 had three hundred thousand people in prison the thirty years ago, 1:09:21.560 --> 1:09:23.599 you know what I mean. Like now we're at two 1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:27.000 point two million right including a half a million who 1:09:27.040 --> 1:09:29.519 right now while we're sitting here eating donuts and playing 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:36.160 ping pong and talking about fucking whatever. So there's a 1:09:36.200 --> 1:09:39.080 half a million people in jail in America right now 1:09:39.120 --> 1:09:41.400 just because they can't post bail. And that's another thing 1:09:41.439 --> 1:09:43.519 I've been extremely active in is bail reform, and that's 1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:48.559 starting to really feel like a movement now because you 1:09:48.600 --> 1:09:52.080 can't have a system in which we have two we 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:54.280 have two separate systems of justice. That's what it comes 1:09:54.280 --> 1:09:55.600 down to. What if you have money, what if you 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:57.960 don't have money? And that is a violation of the 1:09:57.960 --> 1:10:00.920 sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, equal protection and due 1:10:00.920 --> 1:10:02.000 process and the Brown Laws. 1:10:02.000 --> 1:10:04.320 Because I feel like this opioid epidemic is not going 1:10:04.360 --> 1:10:08.280 to provide as many prisoners in prison as the crackademic epidemic. 1:10:08.720 --> 1:10:11.519 I don't know that's the reason. First of all, they're 1:10:11.560 --> 1:10:13.040 all dying you know what I mean, So you can't 1:10:13.080 --> 1:10:14.320 put them in prison after their death. 1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:16.839 Somebody's selling it to women, is not just in the pharmacy. 1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:21.559 Yeah, so yeah, No, it's it's bad. I mean, sixty 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:25.760 four thousand opioid deaths in America last year passed. It 1:10:25.800 --> 1:10:27.280 became the number one cause of death. 1:10:27.520 --> 1:10:28.920 I believe it, but I do not think that it 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:30.559 will have the impact of crack. 1:10:31.280 --> 1:10:34.679 No, they're not gonna lock them up with no. 1:10:34.040 --> 1:10:34.080 No. 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:36.840 Of course. Now that goes back to like, oh, do 1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:38.360 we really even have to say it? 1:10:38.520 --> 1:10:39.720 I mean, sometimes you do. 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.240 Sometimes you in today in twenty seventeen, unfortunately you do. 1:10:43.400 --> 1:10:43.639 Well. 1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:47.240 I would like to ask eighteen because I feel like 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:58.240 the Mount Saint Helen's of Innocent Project poster representative, Uh, 1:10:59.240 --> 1:11:01.320 I would like to know what your feelings are or 1:11:01.479 --> 1:11:06.240 if you even tried to come close to anything remotely 1:11:06.320 --> 1:11:12.400 touching the case of Philadelphia's own Momia abul Jamar. And 1:11:15.280 --> 1:11:19.160 do you think that there's any chance in hell that 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:25.840 even if his case could be reopened and reintroduced with 1:11:26.040 --> 1:11:28.719 whatever new You know, because I've been hearing like since 1:11:28.720 --> 1:11:31.320 the nineties that there's evidence that they wouldn't let us 1:11:31.400 --> 1:11:34.439 enter and d but I also know, you know, I'm 1:11:34.439 --> 1:11:40.120 a Philadelphian, especially growing up doing the Frank Rizzo era. 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:43.880 You're here, I'm telling you, no real talk. 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:50.080 And so it's not just for everyone like him, but 1:11:50.240 --> 1:11:53.519 him specifically. Do you think there's any chance whatsoever? Or 1:11:53.560 --> 1:12:01.320 is it just a loss cause? And as far as people, yeah, 1:12:01.520 --> 1:12:02.479 rallying for him and. 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:06.759 The Innocent Project even touch is he something that they touch. 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:11.200 The Innocence Project? Now, there are fifty something instance projects 1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:13.400 around the country. The main one is the Hub is 1:12:13.400 --> 1:12:15.599 in New York. That's the one where I'm on the board, 1:12:16.800 --> 1:12:19.120 and we only work on DNA cases. And I don't 1:12:19.120 --> 1:12:20.840 believe his is a DNA case. I think it's a 1:12:20.880 --> 1:12:24.519 shooting case. But so I haven't been directly involved in 1:12:24.560 --> 1:12:27.240 his case, but I will say, and I think it's 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:29.200 it's worth mentioning, and then we'll get back to this 1:12:29.320 --> 1:12:32.160 that there was a wonderful article in Rolling Stone magazine 1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:34.160 about a guy named Tony Wright who was on my 1:12:34.240 --> 1:12:37.240 podcast as well, and I'm gonna plug it again wroeful conviction. 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:42.040 But Tony was wrongfully convicted and served twenty five years 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:47.200 in prison in Pennsylvania, and in the article, one of 1:12:47.240 --> 1:12:51.000 the bylines it says in nineteen ninety, whatever year it 1:12:51.040 --> 1:12:53.200 was that he was arrested, a black man had a 1:12:53.200 --> 1:12:56.200 better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than he 1:12:56.200 --> 1:12:59.400 did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that was really the case 1:12:59.439 --> 1:13:02.720 for a long time time. Now what's interesting is and 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:06.040 where it may pertain. And Tony's out now, and he's 1:13:06.080 --> 1:13:08.679 an amazing, amazing guy, and I encourage you to read 1:13:08.720 --> 1:13:15.559 that article. So the good news is there's a new 1:13:15.640 --> 1:13:21.280 DA in Philadelphia who is elected in November, who is 1:13:21.320 --> 1:13:23.479 a former I think he's a former civil rights lawyer. 1:13:23.479 --> 1:13:27.800 Actually he's he's a fantastic, fantastic guy, and he is 1:13:27.880 --> 1:13:32.280 going to make a systemic change in the way justice 1:13:32.520 --> 1:13:35.720 is is served in Philly. And and who knows, I 1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:39.360 don't know whether that will provide, uh, you know, an 1:13:39.400 --> 1:13:43.840 opportunity for Mama to to get out. I mean not 1:13:43.920 --> 1:13:47.000 even you know others. I have a layman's understanding of 1:13:47.040 --> 1:13:54.680 the Mamia Jabar Bul Jamar case. But uh, you know, 1:13:54.800 --> 1:13:57.320 there's it, certainly there's light, you know, and and it's 1:13:57.400 --> 1:14:00.000 and it's important to know there's a there's a wonderful organization. 1:14:00.000 --> 1:14:03.639 Shouldn't call the Justice and Safety pack who are backing 1:14:03.760 --> 1:14:08.680 progressive das in races like that one where because it 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:13.280 makes such a huge difference. You now have a Houston and. 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:15.559 Chicago I think because people need to know. 1:14:15.600 --> 1:14:19.559 It's called the Justice and Safety Pack. Uh and uh 1:14:19.680 --> 1:14:23.000 look it up, give money, get involved. It's an incredible group. 1:14:23.000 --> 1:14:26.120 They're electing amazing people. We have a black woman uh 1:14:26.280 --> 1:14:30.320 DA in Chicago now also in Houston, and when they 1:14:30.360 --> 1:14:32.759 come in the difference that it makes in so many 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:35.360 cases is amazing because, like we said, the prosecutors have 1:14:35.400 --> 1:14:36.080 all the power and. 1:14:36.600 --> 1:14:39.760 The Philly one kind of fucked up. But hopefully I 1:14:40.240 --> 1:14:40.479 don't know. 1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:43.479 If you oh yeah, he's got he's got serious issues, 1:14:43.640 --> 1:14:45.200 got big problems. 1:14:44.880 --> 1:14:47.519 And yeah, I mean and I don't want to you know, 1:14:47.800 --> 1:14:51.240 we're not but yeah, they're. 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:54.960 Not going to open that door democratic do. So what 1:14:55.000 --> 1:15:00.559 would you recommend to uh, especially in the the age 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:06.200 of of of social media and how the way that 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:09.200 news is spread now and awareness is spread and an 1:15:09.240 --> 1:15:12.559 alarming rate that it hasn't been done before, what would 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:18.200 you recommend for those that simply don't know just small, 1:15:19.040 --> 1:15:22.400 minuscule entry ways that they can get involved politically with 1:15:23.600 --> 1:15:26.919 helping out you know, the innoces projects and these various 1:15:27.120 --> 1:15:33.360 uh organizations that help people in their situation, Like I mean, 1:15:33.520 --> 1:15:37.280 just beyond retweeting something and you know. 1:15:38.560 --> 1:15:41.639 Like what's what's what's step two to get to there? 1:15:41.840 --> 1:15:44.799 Because I think a lot of people just even before 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:47.479 meeting you, I would just think like, wow, okay, well 1:15:47.640 --> 1:15:51.240 social justice. I'm I'm kind of interested. Yeah, But then 1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:52.920 it's like, oh god, I don't know if I could 1:15:52.960 --> 1:15:54.559 do that and my day job at the same time. 1:15:55.760 --> 1:15:57.160 But are there ways to. 1:15:58.720 --> 1:16:02.680 Involve yourself that you know, it doesn't necessarily take up 1:16:02.720 --> 1:16:04.519 all the time of your day and or it is 1:16:04.600 --> 1:16:06.439 just like you just got to jump in the river 1:16:06.479 --> 1:16:10.559 and swim at piranha and snakes and no. 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:14.519 I mean, look, you know, I'm I'm very lucky. I've 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:18.240 been you know, fortunate to be successful in business and 1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:21.479 now I can do things at my pace. I also 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:23.839 have a small company now used don't run big companies, 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:28.600 so I have more time and you know, and you know, 1:16:28.640 --> 1:16:31.280 and ultimately it's it makes me, It makes me feel good. 1:16:31.320 --> 1:16:33.080 I call it selfish altruism. You know. I mean I 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:36.080 like helping people, and I like helping the helpless, and 1:16:36.120 --> 1:16:38.559 I can't imagine anyone more helpless than someone who's stuck 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:41.920 in our gulag system for a crime they didn't commit. 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:45.240 And so if I can, if I can make a 1:16:45.240 --> 1:16:48.439 difference in that way, then that you know that I 1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:50.040 don't know, like I actually you know, I had this 1:16:50.080 --> 1:16:52.519 thought yesterday. I spent the day in a maximum security 1:16:52.520 --> 1:16:55.240 prison in Virginia yesterday and I was leaving, I was like, 1:16:55.240 --> 1:16:57.200 you know what, there's nowhere else I would have rather been. 1:16:57.960 --> 1:16:59.880 You know, I could be playing golf and pebble b 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:01.560 each are doing this, I could be doing whatever the 1:17:01.600 --> 1:17:04.080 fuck I want. But it was it was an amazing, 1:17:04.439 --> 1:17:07.559 amazing experience. I met with two guys who I'm helping. 1:17:07.600 --> 1:17:09.160 One of them has been in for thirty one and 1:17:09.240 --> 1:17:12.200 a half years for a crime that he had nothing 1:17:12.240 --> 1:17:16.559 to do with and DNA proves it, and you know, 1:17:16.600 --> 1:17:19.920 and the other guy's been in for ten and it's 1:17:19.920 --> 1:17:23.400 a very interesting and complicated case. But you know, I'm 1:17:23.600 --> 1:17:26.120 I'm going to make a difference in these two people's lives. 1:17:26.240 --> 1:17:28.120 And DNA proves that he had nothing to do with it, 1:17:28.120 --> 1:17:29.000 and he still loves. 1:17:28.840 --> 1:17:31.320 It nothing to do with it. I mean, it's amazing, 1:17:32.680 --> 1:17:34.840 but but there's there's light at the end of the 1:17:34.880 --> 1:17:37.479 tunnel there too. And he's an amazing guy. He's a 1:17:37.720 --> 1:17:41.519 he teaches tai chi and Meditation's written seven books. He's like, 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:45.760 he's a brilliant guy on top of everything else. His 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:48.479 name is Jens Surring j E N S S O 1:17:48.680 --> 1:17:50.559 E R I n G. There's a movie about him 1:17:50.560 --> 1:17:52.840 called The Promise, and there's gonna be a big twenty 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:57.120 twenty piece in December about his case. But so, how 1:17:57.120 --> 1:17:59.320 you can get involved is I mean the first thing 1:17:59.360 --> 1:18:01.080 to do is go to go to website. I mean, 1:18:01.120 --> 1:18:04.599 go to Innocentsproject dot org, you know, or visit your 1:18:04.600 --> 1:18:07.160 local Innocence project website. There's going to be a section 1:18:07.200 --> 1:18:09.799 that says how to get involved. You can write letters. 1:18:10.120 --> 1:18:12.760 You know, people the politicians actually pay attention when you 1:18:12.800 --> 1:18:15.080 write letters. You know, letters are better than emails. But 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:17.960 you can write emails. You could get on these mailing lists, 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:21.280 you can, you can create a page, you can you 1:18:21.280 --> 1:18:23.240 can write the inmates too. I mean, that's it. That's 1:18:23.280 --> 1:18:25.720 a great thing. Whenever I speak to these guys, it 1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:28.559 means so much to them that anybody gives a fuck 1:18:29.160 --> 1:18:32.040 enough to write a letter. You'd be to be surprised and. 1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:33.800 Once you start, you can email, so it's not that deep, 1:18:33.840 --> 1:18:36.000 you know what I mean. People are scared of letters. 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:38.040 Yes, that's true. It's a it's a lost art. My 1:18:38.080 --> 1:18:40.760 mom used to write letters like crazy. But anyway, she 1:18:40.840 --> 1:18:41.360 write a letter. 1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:41.960 The last time. 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:48.920 But down they have the email system, so I'm winning 1:18:48.960 --> 1:18:49.160 they do. 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:53.120 They go, oh, they can links, you can ye je 1:18:54.280 --> 1:18:57.559 different places, but uh and then you know, uh, and 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:00.800 then the other thing is you can organize an event. 1:19:00.880 --> 1:19:06.880 I mean you can contact a local organization and you know, organize, uh, 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:10.559 invite your friends over and do a you know, maybe 1:19:10.560 --> 1:19:13.479 even get an gennery or or just you know, get 1:19:13.520 --> 1:19:16.240 somebody to come in and speak, or you know, contact 1:19:16.240 --> 1:19:19.880 the local You know, there's organizations all over the country 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:21.599 doing this kind of work. And now that there's Google, 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:23.599 it's really there's really no excuse not to find out 1:19:23.640 --> 1:19:24.719 about it and get involved. 1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:26.479 Cititism uh work too. 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:28.400 That's I was going to say, under this umbrella of 1:19:28.479 --> 1:19:31.000 mass incarceration and all the issues that exist underneath it, 1:19:31.040 --> 1:19:35.000 because in my mind, wrongful uh, wrongful imprisonment is one 1:19:35.040 --> 1:19:36.840 of them. But what do you think are like to 1:19:36.920 --> 1:19:39.640 come some of the other issues underneath that umbrella that 1:19:39.640 --> 1:19:42.240 people may need to be concerned about outside of that. 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:44.800 Like, well, there's so many. I mean, for me, I've 1:19:44.840 --> 1:19:48.400 been deeply involved in bail reform. I think that's so 1:19:48.520 --> 1:19:52.519 important because you know, locking people up when we don't 1:19:52.560 --> 1:19:55.280 know if they're guilty, just because they can't pay it 1:19:55.320 --> 1:19:59.040 should be an affront to everybody's humanity. And what people 1:19:59.040 --> 1:20:03.240 don't understand is that jails in this country, most of 1:20:03.280 --> 1:20:06.880 them are worse than the worst maximum security prisons. And 1:20:06.920 --> 1:20:11.160 the reason and people think jail so jails. And when 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:13.519 you talk to the people that I talked to on 1:20:13.560 --> 1:20:16.840 my show, most of them will say that they like 1:20:16.880 --> 1:20:18.960 even one guy had on recently, Ryan Ferguson, he was 1:20:19.000 --> 1:20:20.559 saying that if he had to go back to maxim 1:20:20.640 --> 1:20:23.000 security prison or jail, he said, I'd take two years 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.040 at maxim security prison over one year in jail. 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:26.519 Tell them the difference, because everybody don't. 1:20:26.560 --> 1:20:27.000 It's difference. 1:20:28.280 --> 1:20:30.679 So jail, you go to jail when you're awaiting trial. 1:20:31.400 --> 1:20:34.080 And for instance in New York City, Rikers Island has 1:20:34.120 --> 1:20:37.439 become infamous. Right, that's jail. It's a jail, it's not 1:20:37.479 --> 1:20:41.680 a prison. Right, So in jail, No, there's no recreation 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:45.160 in most jails. They're basically buildings where you can be 1:20:45.240 --> 1:20:47.799 in your cell twenty four hours a day with seven 1:20:47.960 --> 1:20:50.719 eight other people twenty four hours a day. The lights 1:20:50.760 --> 1:20:53.040 don't go off in a lot of jails, right, And 1:20:53.280 --> 1:20:56.519 it's just a pressure cooker of insanity. And you have 1:20:56.600 --> 1:21:00.320 innocent people, guilty people, violent people, we don't know who who. 1:21:00.520 --> 1:21:03.360 They're all just thrown in there together just because you 1:21:03.400 --> 1:21:05.439 can't post the fucking bail. By the way, do you 1:21:05.479 --> 1:21:07.400 know that if you get caught in New York City 1:21:07.479 --> 1:21:10.320 and you get taken to rikers and they go your 1:21:10.360 --> 1:21:13.760 bail's five hundred dollars and you're like, okay, but I 1:21:13.760 --> 1:21:15.800 got five hundred with me and they're like, well, where 1:21:15.840 --> 1:21:18.719 is it that you guys took my It's in the locker. 1:21:18.760 --> 1:21:20.599 They're like, we're gonna just get it out of the locker. 1:21:20.600 --> 1:21:22.120 They're like, no, you can't get it out of locker, 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:24.479 not until you're out, not until you're freed. So wait, 1:21:24.520 --> 1:21:26.080 so I got the money, but I can't post. No, 1:21:26.160 --> 1:21:28.280 you can't post it. Right. And by the way, one 1:21:28.280 --> 1:21:31.200 thing I'll say to anybody if you get arrested, remember 1:21:31.400 --> 1:21:33.720 phone numbers. When you think about that, you go in 1:21:33.760 --> 1:21:35.360 there and get a phone call. You don't have your 1:21:35.400 --> 1:21:38.760 fucking phone. They took it. You got to remember to 1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:41.960 call your mom or whoever it is that's gonna answer 1:21:42.000 --> 1:21:46.000 the damn phone. Remember fucking phone numbers, because if you don't, 1:21:46.320 --> 1:21:49.240 you're gonna be stuck. And who remembers phone numbers? Think 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:51.439 about it, right, I mean, nobody needs to remember phone 1:21:51.520 --> 1:21:53.760 numbers anymore, So that's an important. 1:21:53.479 --> 1:21:55.720 I'm gonna say some real one percent shit right now, 1:21:55.880 --> 1:21:59.759 go for it. I don't know my number, the phone number. 1:22:00.200 --> 1:22:02.840 I don't know your old number. You know, you. 1:22:02.760 --> 1:22:04.720 Don't know your own phone number. You don't know I 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:07.160 have four phones, but my home number. I don't know 1:22:07.200 --> 1:22:08.439 that ship. Oh you know your phone? 1:22:08.880 --> 1:22:10.719 You are right? Like if I didn't have my cell phone, 1:22:10.760 --> 1:22:11.439 I wouldn't know. 1:22:11.400 --> 1:22:14.240 Nobody's paragraph you just gave us. 1:22:15.120 --> 1:22:18.160 It's almost everybody, Like nah, I got like a few 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:20.840 you know your mom's number number I got after like 1:22:20.840 --> 1:22:23.360 two thousand and two, I don't I don't know it. Yeah, yeah, 1:22:23.560 --> 1:22:26.320 any all my new contexts, but yeah, my mom, my wife, 1:22:26.680 --> 1:22:32.360 like my my homie, like Nicola, Yeah, you know what 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:37.000 number I got? Nick's numbers would reach numbers, Shorge numbers 1:22:37.040 --> 1:22:37.360 I want to. 1:22:37.439 --> 1:22:41.759 I want to memorize your number. Person I'm calling anyway, 1:22:41.960 --> 1:22:42.519 who said. 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:46.080 You're gonna be wrongfully convicted though you're arrested. 1:22:46.560 --> 1:22:48.680 Do you think do you think there's any chance in 1:22:48.720 --> 1:22:52.280 hell of us ever repealing the deathly. 1:22:52.560 --> 1:22:54.360 Yeah, I think there's a chance of us repealing the 1:22:54.439 --> 1:22:56.400 death penalty. And I think it's one of the reasons 1:22:56.439 --> 1:22:59.439 I actually I'm really it's very gratifying to me because 1:22:59.439 --> 1:23:02.360 I'll get sometimes a direct message or something from somebody, 1:23:02.479 --> 1:23:04.360 or message on Facebook whatever, But I don't really use 1:23:04.400 --> 1:23:06.880 Facebook that much. I'm on Instagram. Instagram is my ship. 1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:09.360 By the way, ad is Jason Plump. I gotta plug that. 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:13.760 I'm gonna tell you laugh. I'll make you cry. I 1:23:13.840 --> 1:23:17.360 guarantee it. That is Jason Flumm follow me. So. But yeah, 1:23:17.400 --> 1:23:18.960 I'll get messages from people saying, you know, I used 1:23:18.960 --> 1:23:20.479 to believe in the death penalty, but now that I 1:23:20.520 --> 1:23:22.960 hear on your podcast about all these wrongful convictions, I 1:23:23.000 --> 1:23:26.599 realize it happens. You know, We've had twenty one DNA 1:23:26.680 --> 1:23:29.640 exonerations from death row, you know. And I say, to 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:31.800 anybody who believes in the death penalty, which I don't, 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:36.479 if you believe in the death penalty. Then you're saying 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.240 that you're okay with sometimes executing anything wrong. 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:40.519 Right, then you're. 1:23:40.400 --> 1:23:41.599 Okay with that. I just want to make sure you're 1:23:41.600 --> 1:23:44.920 okay with that. Right. We executed an innocent guy in America, oh, 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:50.360 two months ago in Arkansas, the deel Lee innocent as 1:23:50.360 --> 1:23:52.200 the day is long. The DNA proved it, and they 1:23:52.200 --> 1:23:56.639 executed him anyway, and you know he was a client 1:23:56.680 --> 1:23:57.040 of ours. 1:23:57.120 --> 1:24:01.479 Can I ask, uh, what is your annual Well, I 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:03.920 know it moves in the snail space depending on what 1:24:03.960 --> 1:24:08.360 state you're dealing with it and trying to get them exonerated, 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:14.799 But what is your annual average of turning these cases around? 1:24:16.080 --> 1:24:18.920 Well, that's a hard question to answer because there's innocence 1:24:18.960 --> 1:24:21.439 projects all over the country, like I said, affiliated with 1:24:21.479 --> 1:24:26.320 different law schools. There's innocance projects in the forty three states, 1:24:26.360 --> 1:24:32.479 I think, and there are there's more exonerations every year, 1:24:32.600 --> 1:24:35.680 I think. I don't know the exact number last year, 1:24:35.680 --> 1:24:37.600 but I think it was it might have been a 1:24:37.640 --> 1:24:41.439 couple hundred Nationally. It is not enough because if you 1:24:41.479 --> 1:24:46.080 think about it, the best estimates are that somewhere between 1:24:46.160 --> 1:24:48.479 four and seven percent of the people in prison in America, 1:24:48.520 --> 1:24:52.559 not including jail, right, are innocent, right, So that sounds 1:24:52.600 --> 1:24:54.720 a lot like about one hundred thousand people that are 1:24:54.720 --> 1:24:56.640 innocent in prison right now while we're sitting there. And 1:24:56.640 --> 1:24:58.240 like I said, I'm not talking about jail jail, A 1:24:58.360 --> 1:24:59.800 huge percentage of people in jail are in the same 1:24:59.800 --> 1:25:02.720 because I haven't even tried yet, and so you know, 1:25:02.720 --> 1:25:05.600 And that's the thing, like I said, that whole the 1:25:05.640 --> 1:25:09.880 death penalty has to go away, like fucking civilized countries 1:25:09.880 --> 1:25:12.559 don't excellent execute people. And we're in the top five 1:25:12.640 --> 1:25:19.120 behind like China, Iran, North Korea and I don't know, Pakistandards. 1:25:19.120 --> 1:25:20.600 It's not a good group to be in, you know 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:23.040 what I'm saying. Of course, now we're the only country 1:25:23.080 --> 1:25:25.360 in the world that's not in the Paris Agreement, right, 1:25:25.439 --> 1:25:27.720 Syria actually signed on yesterday. Syria. 1:25:28.080 --> 1:25:30.400 I was about to ask you, what's the what do 1:25:30.400 --> 1:25:33.040 you think of the top issues with us and having 1:25:33.040 --> 1:25:34.840 Trump in here in reference to the work that you 1:25:34.920 --> 1:25:36.240 do things. 1:25:36.080 --> 1:25:36.559 All of them. 1:25:37.360 --> 1:25:40.360 Yeah, that was what I'm saying. 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:42.280 Yeah, all, yeah, it's all. 1:25:42.439 --> 1:25:47.479 Yeah, how does the Innocence Project raise money? Like I'm 1:25:47.520 --> 1:25:51.160 figuring that you guys would in order to keep up 1:25:51.160 --> 1:25:54.800 with the thousands and thousands and thousands of cases that 1:25:54.880 --> 1:25:58.439 you have to deal with. You know that there's less 1:25:58.479 --> 1:26:00.839 people on the Innocence Project side. 1:26:00.680 --> 1:26:02.800 Of the fence to help. 1:26:04.160 --> 1:26:06.360 The amount of prisoners that you know are coming to 1:26:06.360 --> 1:26:08.559 you guys for these for your help. 1:26:09.080 --> 1:26:13.200 So yeah, I mean we raised money from individuals and foundations. 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:16.719 That's what we do, and you know, every little bit helps. 1:26:16.800 --> 1:26:19.439 The more money that comes in. It is a not 1:26:19.600 --> 1:26:25.160 for profit, donations are tax deductible, and you know, the 1:26:25.160 --> 1:26:27.200 more money that comes in, the more more difference we 1:26:27.200 --> 1:26:29.559 can make, not only in individual cases, but also in 1:26:30.320 --> 1:26:34.080 creating systemic changes and how everything from lineups are conducted 1:26:34.120 --> 1:26:41.400 to forensics to you know, to there's so many changes 1:26:41.400 --> 1:26:43.599 that have to be made in the way the way 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:47.480 interrogations are done, right, I mean everything videotaping, mandatory videotaping 1:26:47.439 --> 1:26:49.720 of introgations in New York State just passed that finally, Right, 1:26:49.760 --> 1:26:53.679 we didn't have that New York City. Yeah, just passed it. Yeah, 1:26:54.040 --> 1:26:56.400 shout out to del Ricomo for that one. But yeah, 1:26:56.520 --> 1:26:59.759 I mean that's that's it's so crazy, right, it's. 1:26:59.640 --> 1:27:03.160 Just him on a first forty eight yet, Yeah. 1:27:02.560 --> 1:27:04.679 It's it's I mean, look, we were also the second 1:27:04.720 --> 1:27:08.280 to last state to UH to stop treating juveniles putting 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:10.679 juveniles in adult prisons, you know, like it was only 1:27:10.760 --> 1:27:15.639 us and I think South Carolina were the last two. Yeah, 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:18.160 gouvenills in adult prisons. And yeah, and back to the 1:27:18.240 --> 1:27:21.160 jail thing, the jail, the jail thing. They're so dangerous. 1:27:21.160 --> 1:27:23.479 I mean, Clif Brouder, anybody, you know what I mean. Yeah, 1:27:23.520 --> 1:27:27.000 rest in peace, I mean. And then there are others, 1:27:27.080 --> 1:27:28.880 I mean, and my my thing is to try to 1:27:28.920 --> 1:27:30.760 prevent that from happening. I started the thing in the 1:27:30.800 --> 1:27:33.240 Bronx called the Freedom Fund, which was the first bail 1:27:33.280 --> 1:27:36.280 fund in the country, which basically how that works is 1:27:37.040 --> 1:27:38.599 I raised the money. My dad actually put up half 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:39.920 the money to start it when I when I went 1:27:39.960 --> 1:27:42.840 to him with the idea, and I put the money 1:27:42.840 --> 1:27:44.599 in the hands of the lawyers at the Bronx Defenders, 1:27:44.600 --> 1:27:47.800 which is a great organization, and they post bail for 1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:51.439 their own clients in misdemeanor cases. So it was it 1:27:51.479 --> 1:27:53.559 was an innovative idea, it seemed common sensical. 1:27:53.840 --> 1:27:54.719 Made it to the bill later. 1:27:55.320 --> 1:27:57.160 No, No, the good money comes back when you when 1:27:57.160 --> 1:27:58.960 they show up for court. And by the way, ninety 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:01.639 seven percent of our clients show up for every court date. 1:28:01.840 --> 1:28:03.680 We have a higher percentage of people showing up than 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:06.200 people who actually have to pay money if they don't. Right, 1:28:06.320 --> 1:28:08.840 So that whole argument's out the window that we need 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:10.680 money bail to make sure people show up. People, you 1:28:10.680 --> 1:28:12.160 know what they do. They show up. We send them 1:28:12.200 --> 1:28:14.120 a text message and say don't forget you know what 1:28:14.160 --> 1:28:15.599 I mean. And that's how they show up. And they 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.479 show up, and then usually their cases are dismissed because 1:28:18.520 --> 1:28:21.120 if they have you in jail, you got to plead 1:28:21.120 --> 1:28:24.439 guilty or you ain't going home. So but if you're out, 1:28:24.560 --> 1:28:27.479 they just they're a good process for jumping jail. 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:30.400 You have to plead guilty or else you ain't going home. 1:28:30.600 --> 1:28:32.720 Think about that, right, you're gonna you're gonna be in 1:28:32.800 --> 1:28:34.439 jail for you want to stay in rikers for a 1:28:34.439 --> 1:28:37.439 week two weeks waiting for your court date. And and 1:28:37.479 --> 1:28:39.280 by the way, sometimes you'll go to court and they'll 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:41.720 the prosecutor will say, well, you know, we're really not 1:28:41.800 --> 1:28:44.000 ready for this case, your honor, And the judge says, okay, 1:28:44.000 --> 1:28:46.080 come back in three weeks. What else can he say? 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:50.320 So if you're saying that I'm not guilty, then I'm 1:28:50.439 --> 1:28:52.520 doing that time in Rikers until. 1:28:53.640 --> 1:28:55.320 And a lot of people will end up serving more 1:28:55.320 --> 1:28:57.360 time in Rikers than they would have served if they 1:28:57.400 --> 1:28:58.320 were guilty. 1:28:58.640 --> 1:29:01.000 Wait, okay, I got wait ask a fourth time. 1:29:01.640 --> 1:29:05.360 So you're saying, okay, let's say I did jump a 1:29:05.400 --> 1:29:09.240 turnstot and I get arrested and taken too. Well, you 1:29:09.320 --> 1:29:11.880 go downtown first before you go to Rikers. I assume 1:29:11.880 --> 1:29:13.919 it depends. Where is there such a thing as downtown? 1:29:14.040 --> 1:29:16.880 Is that just television New York? You're going downtown. 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:18.799 There's the tombs, but almost everybody goes to Rikers. 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:21.000 Okay the way it don't sound fun? 1:29:22.200 --> 1:29:22.880 Yeah, I learned. 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:26.320 Also, don't do anything on Thursday or Friday or. 1:29:26.479 --> 1:29:28.080 Yes, you'll be a weekdays. 1:29:28.760 --> 1:29:32.559 So you're saying that once they're in process. 1:29:33.520 --> 1:29:36.320 If I say that I'm innocent and you got the 1:29:36.360 --> 1:29:39.040 wrong person, I'm staying in Rikers. 1:29:39.479 --> 1:29:41.280 That's what happened to Khalif Browner. He was there for 1:29:41.320 --> 1:29:46.360 three years awaiting trial. Three years I mean, and then 1:29:46.400 --> 1:29:49.080 they dropped the charges. You know that, right, They dropped 1:29:49.080 --> 1:29:50.200 the chargers after three years. 1:29:50.280 --> 1:29:52.280 I don't even like to think about him because. 1:29:52.439 --> 1:29:56.439 No, yeah, it's I mean, and he ain't the last one. 1:29:57.760 --> 1:30:01.120 There was this case with Pedro Hernandez. I was in 1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:02.800 court when his when the charge some of the charges 1:30:02.840 --> 1:30:06.400 were dropped. He was he was in for a year 1:30:07.560 --> 1:30:10.439 awaiting trial, and he was a valedictorian in his class 1:30:10.479 --> 1:30:12.920 in Rikers Island and was offered a college scholarship, and 1:30:12.960 --> 1:30:15.479 they were trying to keep him in there, you know, 1:30:15.520 --> 1:30:18.400 so that he would miss his college. But he just 1:30:18.439 --> 1:30:20.920 got out. But yeah, his case is horrible too. 1:30:21.439 --> 1:30:26.400 So for those that are wrongfully convicted, do you guys 1:30:26.439 --> 1:30:31.599 also work on making sure that the state makes up 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:35.160 for any wrong convictions or wrongdoing as far as like. 1:30:36.880 --> 1:30:38.200 Emotions and those. 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:42.519 Things, and what's the like, what's the likelihood of because 1:30:42.520 --> 1:30:43.760 I'm thinking about the Central. 1:30:43.479 --> 1:30:48.040 Park fact, you know, what they say is not even 1:30:48.280 --> 1:30:48.839 but even. 1:30:48.680 --> 1:30:49.599 Then it's like. 1:30:51.160 --> 1:30:55.479 So mentally fucked up from there from there. So I'm asking, 1:30:55.479 --> 1:30:59.360 I'm asking about, like, you know, mental health and all 1:30:59.400 --> 1:31:01.600 those things. Is that even thought about now or is 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:08.200 that just like a you know, the lost cost to 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:09.360 even think that. 1:31:10.400 --> 1:31:14.200 Your mental health of exonerreies. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's 1:31:14.200 --> 1:31:17.680 something that I've been very focused on. I you know, 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:21.439 I started a thing called the Life After Exoneration Program 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:24.800 at the Innocence Project and also the thing that's become 1:31:24.840 --> 1:31:28.439 the Innocence Network Conference, which is as a group every 1:31:28.520 --> 1:31:31.200 year we bring together a lot of exgneries. Last year 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:33.040 I had two hundred in the same room who collectively 1:31:33.040 --> 1:31:36.840 had served over thirty six hundred years in prison. And 1:31:38.160 --> 1:31:42.640 it's all for healing and you know, adapting and reintegrating 1:31:42.680 --> 1:31:45.200 into society, because I feel the same way you do, Like, 1:31:45.280 --> 1:31:47.360 what do we do for these people when they we've 1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:50.160 you know, we've wronged them so much, and you know, 1:31:50.200 --> 1:31:52.320 when they get out, they get a bus ticket basically 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.840 and forty dollars in a lot of cases, and you know, 1:31:54.880 --> 1:31:59.120 sometimes not even an apology. And then if they sue. 1:32:00.200 --> 1:32:03.519 You know, thirty states have compensation statutes and twenty don't, 1:32:03.920 --> 1:32:06.200 and you know it is New York one of them. 1:32:06.280 --> 1:32:10.760 New York does. And then you know, even the even 1:32:10.800 --> 1:32:13.320 the states that do have very very different, you know, 1:32:13.720 --> 1:32:18.000 levels that you can you can get. You know, some 1:32:18.080 --> 1:32:20.760 of them are so shockingly low that you would be embarrassed. 1:32:20.800 --> 1:32:24.479 But that's something we've been working on changing and getting. 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:27.519 You know, we actually managed to get a very good 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:30.919 bill passed in Texas, of all places, so in Texas 1:32:30.960 --> 1:32:34.160 you get now I can't remember. I think it's fifty 1:32:34.200 --> 1:32:35.680 or eighty thousand a year for every year you were 1:32:35.680 --> 1:32:38.280 locked up, plus an annuity of an equal amount. So 1:32:38.360 --> 1:32:40.479 it's not a fortune, but at least it's something to 1:32:40.520 --> 1:32:42.200 start your life again, because a lot of these people 1:32:42.240 --> 1:32:45.799 come out after ten, fifteen, twenty thirty years in prison 1:32:46.320 --> 1:32:48.720 and good luck getting a job. Right, what are you 1:32:48.760 --> 1:32:51.040 going to do? You don't know how to do phone? 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:52.840 Yeah, I've never seen a phone. 1:32:52.920 --> 1:32:56.720 I mean, like, and so you know, we are, you know, 1:32:56.760 --> 1:33:03.200 we are working on that. Amazing, you know, the spirit 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:06.599 of these people is so strong. I guess the ones 1:33:06.640 --> 1:33:10.120 that collapse never get out, you know. And and I'll 1:33:10.120 --> 1:33:12.280 talk to the ex houneries and I'm like, I'm always 1:33:12.280 --> 1:33:15.600 amazed at how they don't show any signs of bitterness, 1:33:16.000 --> 1:33:20.200 you know. And it's but it's it's it's true, and 1:33:20.240 --> 1:33:23.679 it's incredible. You know, not every single one, but almost 1:33:23.760 --> 1:33:27.000 every single one has this like state of grace that 1:33:27.040 --> 1:33:31.080 they're in where they've just let go and they're you know, 1:33:31.080 --> 1:33:32.600 they'll say things like I don't want to live in 1:33:32.640 --> 1:33:34.280 the past. I can't change the past. I want to 1:33:34.280 --> 1:33:35.720 move forward. I want to live every day in my 1:33:35.760 --> 1:33:37.600 life is you know, like I can't you know what 1:33:37.640 --> 1:33:39.920 am I gonna do? Walk around being bitter and angry. 1:33:39.960 --> 1:33:41.559 It's not going to help me, you know. It's like 1:33:41.600 --> 1:33:43.280 that's where they say bitterness is a pill you take 1:33:43.280 --> 1:33:46.080 hoping to make somebody else sick. Right, But the fact is, 1:33:47.120 --> 1:33:49.960 there are a lot of things that we're putting in 1:33:50.000 --> 1:33:54.760 place all over you know, I mean that that are 1:33:54.800 --> 1:33:58.680 designed to help hoies. You know what's crazy, love is 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:02.840 that if you are guilty of a crime and you 1:34:02.880 --> 1:34:05.600 serve your time and you proll out, you get a 1:34:05.600 --> 1:34:08.920 prole officer, and you get certain services that are designed 1:34:08.960 --> 1:34:10.960 to help you get back into society. They don't always work. 1:34:11.400 --> 1:34:13.479 You don't get it if if you're innothing to getting nothing, 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:18.320 what mn and even if you sue, and even if 1:34:18.360 --> 1:34:19.800 you're able to sue, and if look how long it 1:34:19.800 --> 1:34:22.280 took the Central Part five to get paid, right, I 1:34:22.280 --> 1:34:24.680 mean Central Park five. You were a kid growing up 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:26.880 when that shit happened. Right now, they just got paid 1:34:26.920 --> 1:34:28.639 what was it like a year ago? And it's worth 1:34:28.640 --> 1:34:31.080 mentioning that Trump took out ads at the time of 1:34:31.120 --> 1:34:33.480 their arrest, calling for all of them to be executed. 1:34:33.479 --> 1:34:35.240 He spent a bunch of money on all the newspapers 1:34:35.280 --> 1:34:37.080 in New York say these guys should be executed, and 1:34:37.160 --> 1:34:39.599 of course he still says they're guilty because he knows 1:34:39.600 --> 1:34:44.080 these things. And the first, you know, the first episode 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:47.320 of my podcast, I actually interviewed Raymond Santana. It's a 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:50.479 really powerful episode. And I've done, I've done, you know, 1:34:50.479 --> 1:34:53.960 I do a lot of speaking, and I did a 1:34:54.360 --> 1:34:57.320 speech with him at the Nantucket Project, which you can 1:34:57.360 --> 1:34:59.400 actually look up online if you just google my name 1:34:59.400 --> 1:35:05.479 and Nantucket Project where I interviewed him on stage, and 1:35:05.600 --> 1:35:08.120 he's extraordinary, I mean, in that story is extraordinary. 1:35:09.320 --> 1:35:12.160 I have a one more question, and I know it's 1:35:12.200 --> 1:35:16.840 weird to ask, but because a lot of these a 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:22.360 lot of the people that you're releasing, some of them 1:35:22.400 --> 1:35:27.160 have certain decades in you know, three, two, three, four decades, 1:35:27.200 --> 1:35:27.719 I assume. 1:35:27.800 --> 1:35:31.160 Yeah, guy got out in New Orleans this week after 1:35:31.280 --> 1:35:32.599 forty six years. 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:34.959 I was going this week, I was going to say. 1:35:34.880 --> 1:35:37.240 Wilbert Jones, how old is he now? I don't even 1:35:37.280 --> 1:35:40.679 know how old he is? Forty five or six forty five? 1:35:41.360 --> 1:35:44.760 He went in in seventy one my. 1:35:44.800 --> 1:35:46.720 Life, Well, yeah, that's forty six years. 1:35:47.200 --> 1:35:49.000 Yeah, right, you're born seventy one, right. 1:35:49.080 --> 1:35:49.280 Yeah. 1:35:49.439 --> 1:35:53.160 So I was going to say that I have a 1:35:53.200 --> 1:35:55.800 couple of friends in Philadelphia that were caught up in 1:35:55.800 --> 1:35:58.640 the system. 1:35:57.800 --> 1:35:58.600 And. 1:36:00.080 --> 1:36:05.760 Coming out of jail was so frightening for them that 1:36:05.880 --> 1:36:08.519 it was almost like the feeling of you going to jail, 1:36:09.320 --> 1:36:13.599 and to the point that two of those three basically 1:36:13.600 --> 1:36:18.200 told their families like, look, I'm gonna I'm not going 1:36:18.280 --> 1:36:22.120 to go see my uh my, my Bill, my parole officer, 1:36:23.160 --> 1:36:25.720 because I don't know anything in this world, like I 1:36:25.840 --> 1:36:26.719 gotta go back. 1:36:27.000 --> 1:36:28.280 I mean, it's kind of some weird stock. 1:36:30.560 --> 1:36:33.360 Yeah, So like, what's what are the cases of those 1:36:33.400 --> 1:36:35.719 that you get out and they come out and they're 1:36:35.800 --> 1:36:40.320 just like, I have nothing to live for, Like I 1:36:40.360 --> 1:36:44.040 my whole world is inside of that prison. And one, 1:36:44.320 --> 1:36:46.640 you know, willingly want to go back because I know 1:36:46.720 --> 1:36:48.040 that that happens a lot. 1:36:48.640 --> 1:36:51.800 You know, I've heard that happens. It happened in Shawshak Redemption, right, 1:36:51.840 --> 1:36:58.920 but movies. But I haven't seen not even one of these. 1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:04.760 I don't want to do that, probably guilty. 1:37:04.800 --> 1:37:09.480 That might be the distinction. It's a psychological you know phenomenon. 1:37:09.560 --> 1:37:14.120 But yeah, it's it's getting out is another punishment, you know, 1:37:14.280 --> 1:37:17.280 when they come out and we make it so difficult 1:37:17.320 --> 1:37:20.400 for them to get compensated. It takes years, even in 1:37:20.439 --> 1:37:23.639 the cases where it's successful. And you know, I've taken 1:37:23.720 --> 1:37:27.240 it as my you know, one of my missions to 1:37:27.280 --> 1:37:31.240 try to help bridge that gap when I can, because 1:37:31.680 --> 1:37:35.280 you know, these people deserve I mean, they got everything 1:37:35.360 --> 1:37:37.599 coming to them and they get nothing, you know, like 1:37:38.120 --> 1:37:43.479 we owe them as a society and everything. It's it's like, 1:37:43.680 --> 1:37:46.040 there should be free education for these people. There should 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:50.320 be housing, there should be you know, it's nuts, Like 1:37:50.920 --> 1:37:52.000 it's just I don't know. 1:37:52.280 --> 1:37:55.360 Have you been able to garner any of your roster, 1:37:55.520 --> 1:37:57.280 any of your kind of celebrity friends to not just 1:37:57.320 --> 1:37:59.160 be a voice, we kind of get involved as well. 1:38:03.400 --> 1:38:05.559 None of the none of the ones that I work 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:08.679 directly with, have gotten involved in any deep level. 1:38:08.760 --> 1:38:10.960 I mean, like do they know of your work, of 1:38:11.000 --> 1:38:13.560 your kind of Clark Kent Superman life for it? 1:38:13.800 --> 1:38:16.000 Do I look like someone who knows how to shut up? 1:38:18.439 --> 1:38:21.040 Because he might have be mixed up with some other guy? 1:38:21.280 --> 1:38:23.840 But no, I yeah, I mean I'm proselytizing this stuff 1:38:23.840 --> 1:38:25.479 all the time. Like I said, I promoted on my 1:38:25.520 --> 1:38:27.920 Instagram and anybody who follows me knows that. And then 1:38:27.960 --> 1:38:29.880 I you know, and I also talk about it to 1:38:29.920 --> 1:38:33.879 anybody that will listen, and you know, and it is amazing. 1:38:33.960 --> 1:38:37.960 I mean the you know, social media has been really 1:38:37.960 --> 1:38:40.120 helpful for me in getting that word out, but it 1:38:40.160 --> 1:38:42.479 hasn't yet. I mean, look a lot of people some 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:45.160 people are just not you know, the people. I think 1:38:45.160 --> 1:38:47.280 in their thirties is usually when people start to become 1:38:47.479 --> 1:38:50.519 interested in really making a different something else. I mean, 1:38:51.040 --> 1:38:55.519 you know, I mean, you know, look Scooter Braun. Interesting, right, 1:38:55.520 --> 1:38:57.680 here's a guy who's on top of the world and 1:38:57.720 --> 1:38:59.920 he's now look what he's doing right with these kind 1:39:00.000 --> 1:39:04.080 inserts Manchester thing and the hurricane relief. I mean, he's 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:06.320 become that guy in his mid thirties. 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:09.120 Where he's like, I'm Bob Gildo. 1:39:09.760 --> 1:39:11.680 It hit it hits you at some point that you 1:39:11.680 --> 1:39:13.880 have a higher purpose. And I don't mean that in 1:39:13.880 --> 1:39:15.760 a religious way. It's just like you have, you know, 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:17.760 you have a calling. I mean, we're here, We're here 1:39:17.880 --> 1:39:20.040 to be our brother's keepers. And that's the way it is, 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:22.880 you know, like and and it doesn't make any sense 1:39:22.920 --> 1:39:25.080 to fight that feeling, like, just go with it. I mean, look, 1:39:25.120 --> 1:39:27.080 some people have working three jobs just to put food 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:29.160 on the table. They don't have time. But you know, 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:30.680 it's that old thing. If you're up to your ass 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:32.719 at alligators, it's hard to remember to dream the swamp. 1:39:33.120 --> 1:39:36.719 But you know, if you got, if you got yours, 1:39:37.280 --> 1:39:40.240 then get off your ass and go find your shit 1:39:40.360 --> 1:39:43.200 like it's it's give. It makes me so fucking happy 1:39:43.280 --> 1:39:45.759 to be able to make this difference. It's it's nuts. 1:39:45.760 --> 1:39:48.640 I mean, like I feel, I feel lucky, you know, 1:39:48.880 --> 1:39:51.240 to be in a position to be able to do 1:39:51.280 --> 1:39:54.000 this and to have found something that really touches me 1:39:54.120 --> 1:39:57.120 and makes me want to do more every day. 1:39:57.280 --> 1:40:00.160 Well, man, we thank you for fighting a good fight, 1:40:00.200 --> 1:40:04.120 and hopefully that will inspire listeners to uh you know, 1:40:04.200 --> 1:40:05.200 get involved as well. 1:40:05.560 --> 1:40:07.400 And we are lucky to have you. 1:40:08.520 --> 1:40:09.880 Have you, thank the show. 1:40:09.920 --> 1:40:13.960 Thanks for that. Thank you. Since project dot org everybody. 1:40:13.600 --> 1:40:16.920 Yes, it's Jason Flummer Instagram. I just followed him. 1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:18.000 It's Jason. 1:40:18.479 --> 1:40:23.160 I'm a follow backer. Let me now watching a thousand 1:40:23.160 --> 1:40:25.720 people to follow me back? What is this guy? Full ship? 1:40:25.960 --> 1:40:26.200 We have? 1:40:26.560 --> 1:40:28.559 Let's talk ask right now? 1:40:30.760 --> 1:40:35.559 Yeah, twenty questions, are you serious second coming to Okay? 1:40:35.840 --> 1:40:37.400 No, they weren't a second company to you. 1:40:37.439 --> 1:40:38.240 I'm just saying no. 1:40:38.560 --> 1:40:41.080 Matchbox twenty was like twenty years before, ten years before. 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:44.120 Listen, just let him have this, give me, give me 1:40:44.160 --> 1:40:46.880 a three match box. Any questions then? 1:40:46.880 --> 1:40:47.200 Words? 1:40:47.240 --> 1:40:53.200 Now, let me see Okay, massbuster? Okay, Rob Thomas, I don't. 1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:53.719 Know what do I stought? 1:40:53.720 --> 1:40:57.600 Okay, just yourself? Just like yourself? Is someone like you? 1:40:57.680 --> 1:40:59.400 That was the album with three am on it? 1:40:59.479 --> 1:41:04.640 Right? Okay? 1:41:04.120 --> 1:41:07.040 So much because this is like me trying to freestyle. 1:41:07.920 --> 1:41:10.000 Man, I don't know what, Rob Thomas, So it was 1:41:10.040 --> 1:41:12.680 that one he had three amals on that record, and 1:41:12.720 --> 1:41:15.720 then what was the big big record, Push Push Push? 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:19.800 How do you know that? It was everywhere everywhere? How 1:41:19.840 --> 1:41:20.720 do you not know it? Yeah? 1:41:20.720 --> 1:41:25.679 That record was everywhere? Okay, So then the thing happened. 1:41:25.760 --> 1:41:28.160 How did did that affect the group at all? Like 1:41:28.200 --> 1:41:31.280 once he had that huge record, once smooth came out smoothly, 1:41:31.400 --> 1:41:34.360 that messed up group dynamics with Rob and the rest 1:41:34.360 --> 1:41:35.040 of the guys. 1:41:35.280 --> 1:41:37.600 Oh that's a good question. I never really thought of 1:41:37.600 --> 1:41:39.599 it that way, And I don't know. I think it's hard, 1:41:39.720 --> 1:41:41.160 you know, it's hard to figure out the cause of 1:41:41.200 --> 1:41:44.800 the effect, but you know, it seems like something like 1:41:44.840 --> 1:41:47.160 that will affect the dynamic one way or another. Right. 1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:48.800 It was always kind of just robbing the other guys, 1:41:48.960 --> 1:41:50.000 wasn't it. Yeah I didn't know. 1:41:51.680 --> 1:41:54.800 Yeah, I mean, yeah, Rob's that guy I mean. 1:41:55.080 --> 1:41:57.840 And then Sugar Ray, whose idea was it to put 1:41:57.880 --> 1:41:58.920 super Cat on something? 1:41:59.360 --> 1:41:59.880 Yeah? 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:03.720 I think that was the producer David Khan who had 1:42:03.720 --> 1:42:04.200 that idea. 1:42:04.320 --> 1:42:05.200 David con produced him. 1:42:07.200 --> 1:42:08.600 David Khan, Damn. 1:42:08.320 --> 1:42:09.400 That's he produced. 1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:12.439 Yeah. It was strange, you wouldn't think, right, but yeah, 1:42:12.479 --> 1:42:13.280 he produced fly. 1:42:13.840 --> 1:42:14.720 I did not know that. 1:42:14.760 --> 1:42:15.960 Wow, that was fun. 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:19.240 That's the joint. Okay, that's cool. 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:23.640 Any cold Play questions, man, because okay cold Play, I 1:42:23.640 --> 1:42:24.720 don't Actually. 1:42:24.360 --> 1:42:25.800 I only work with them for a minute, so I 1:42:25.800 --> 1:42:27.360 don't know, like. 1:42:27.680 --> 1:42:29.960 I literally okay, well, Craig on the show. 1:42:30.400 --> 1:42:33.200 I didn't even work with them. I met them. They 1:42:33.240 --> 1:42:34.960 were just happened to be signed to the label I 1:42:35.000 --> 1:42:36.800 was running. But you know, I was only I was 1:42:36.800 --> 1:42:39.920 only there for a whatever, a couple of years. And yeah, 1:42:39.960 --> 1:42:42.280 they were they were doing they were the stratus for already. 1:42:42.560 --> 1:42:43.920 I get zero credit for that. 1:42:44.520 --> 1:42:47.200 Okay, we're all when I said and done for your 1:42:47.320 --> 1:42:51.920 your music, your music career, what's the one achievement where 1:42:51.920 --> 1:42:52.559 you're just like. 1:42:54.160 --> 1:42:54.240 Me? 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:57.880 I did that like to yourself, you know, your humble 1:42:57.920 --> 1:42:59.800 brag moment to yourself inside. 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:02.760 That you're gonna guess on Pandora In the music business. Yeah, 1:43:02.840 --> 1:43:03.799 in the music business. 1:43:04.320 --> 1:43:06.599 I mean it's funny because the one thing we didn't 1:43:06.640 --> 1:43:09.400 even talk about is one of my proudest accomplishments, which 1:43:09.439 --> 1:43:14.120 is Translateburian Orchestra. You know, because of it, Yeah, I 1:43:14.120 --> 1:43:18.240 mean Translbian Orchestra. Was was it crazy? Crazy ass story? 1:43:18.240 --> 1:43:20.519 You know, I'd signed this metal group called Sabotage, not 1:43:20.560 --> 1:43:21.840 because I want to do it, because a guy I 1:43:21.880 --> 1:43:23.920 was hanging out with back in those days wouldn't leave 1:43:23.920 --> 1:43:27.080 me alone. And so, you know, I don't even really 1:43:27.120 --> 1:43:30.440 like metal music, but I like hard rock. But anyway, 1:43:30.280 --> 1:43:33.320 they'd she had fallen out of favor, and you know, 1:43:33.400 --> 1:43:36.880 we're really I was. I actually dropped them in ninety 1:43:36.920 --> 1:43:41.519 six because they weren't doing anything. And then one day 1:43:41.560 --> 1:43:44.400 their lawyer, Nick Ferrara, calls me on the phone and says, 1:43:44.760 --> 1:43:46.559 did you know the w PLJ is going to add 1:43:46.560 --> 1:43:49.120 Sabotage tomorrow? And I said, do you know you must 1:43:49.160 --> 1:43:52.240 be the single dumbest lawyer in America? You think w 1:43:52.520 --> 1:43:54.240 And we can't even get that shit played on metal 1:43:54.280 --> 1:43:56.600 stations anymore. College stations won't even playing what are you 1:43:56.640 --> 1:43:59.080 talking about? PLJ was the biggest station the country back then, 1:43:59.400 --> 1:44:03.640 you remember. And so next day Scott Shannon, this was 1:44:03.680 --> 1:44:07.799 December eleventh of ninety six, Scott Shannon plays the last 1:44:07.840 --> 1:44:10.960 song on the Sabotage album, and not only does he 1:44:11.000 --> 1:44:16.360 play it, he reads the liner notes and he goes 1:44:16.400 --> 1:44:18.280 into a whole thing about how there is the most 1:44:18.280 --> 1:44:21.760 powerful piece of music. And every store in New York 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:23.880 blows out right like people are calling the stores are 1:44:23.880 --> 1:44:25.600 calling us, going where's this record? We need more of 1:44:25.640 --> 1:44:28.640 these records. We're like, we don't even know, Like we 1:44:28.680 --> 1:44:30.759 don't have any. We dropped the band. And then Scott 1:44:30.760 --> 1:44:32.759 starts calling other radio stations saying, this is the biggest 1:44:32.760 --> 1:44:35.080 thing I've ever seen at it right, And all these 1:44:35.080 --> 1:44:37.120 other stations called Colonis saying, so it turns out they 1:44:37.160 --> 1:44:39.639 had put a Christmas song on a metal album, right, 1:44:39.680 --> 1:44:40.320 who does that? 1:44:40.800 --> 1:44:41.080 It was? 1:44:41.200 --> 1:44:43.880 The last song was Carol of the Bells, done with 1:44:45.080 --> 1:44:46.960 metal guitars and an orchestra. 1:44:46.920 --> 1:44:49.600 So like members were they. 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:51.080 There was four members in Sabotage, but the smiff's guy 1:44:51.080 --> 1:44:52.400 was really the producer, who was a guy nam Paul 1:44:52.400 --> 1:44:55.960 O'Neil who sadly died this year, and so he he 1:44:56.080 --> 1:45:00.400 had made this record d D then the with the 1:45:00.520 --> 1:45:03.040 good metal guitars, and no no, no, no, no no, it 1:45:03.080 --> 1:45:06.040 was the strings right, and then then the guitar. No no, 1:45:06.160 --> 1:45:09.639 no no no, and for whatever reason, it was pure magic. Right. 1:45:10.120 --> 1:45:12.639 So we start shipping and pressing these records and setting 1:45:12.640 --> 1:45:14.479 them out as fast as we can, making copies for 1:45:14.520 --> 1:45:16.960 the radio stations, and because we still own the mastery 1:45:16.960 --> 1:45:19.240 though we had dropped the band. And then in January 1:45:19.320 --> 1:45:21.960 I called Paul on you and I go, Paul, people 1:45:22.160 --> 1:45:25.880 love this record, but they hate Sabotage. So I said, 1:45:25.880 --> 1:45:28.920 here's what I want you to do. Take that song, 1:45:30.040 --> 1:45:33.639 don't mix it, don't fix it, don't edit it, don't 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:36.800 do a fucking thing to it, because it's perfect, and 1:45:36.840 --> 1:45:39.280 make a whole album of songs just like that. Give 1:45:39.280 --> 1:45:41.519 it a nice Christmas Eve name, and I'll sell millions 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:43.519 for you. So he calls me up. A couple of 1:45:43.560 --> 1:45:45.000 weeks later, he goes, what do you think about Trans 1:45:45.000 --> 1:45:47.120 Siberian Orchestra on what the fuck do I know? I'm Jewish? 1:45:47.120 --> 1:45:51.360 I don't know about if you making help of calling 1:45:52.240 --> 1:45:55.280 so he so we called the Trans Siberian Orchestra and 1:45:55.280 --> 1:45:57.720 it became the biggest Christmas artist in the history of 1:45:57.760 --> 1:45:58.120 the world. 1:45:58.400 --> 1:45:59.919 Publishing must be crazy. 1:46:00.240 --> 1:46:04.439 Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately that's not me, but whatever, But so, yeah, 1:46:04.479 --> 1:46:06.519 so that was really fun because it was so difficult 1:46:06.600 --> 1:46:08.920 to break that act. That one in kid Rock really 1:46:08.960 --> 1:46:11.200 were the hardest, and in spite of the current things 1:46:11.200 --> 1:46:12.920 that are going on, it was so much fun breaking 1:46:13.000 --> 1:46:15.519 Kid Rock. Looking back, it was just nobody was on 1:46:15.560 --> 1:46:18.040 that guy. I mean, it was like everybody was against him. 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:20.400 He told me the story, did you you said you 1:46:20.439 --> 1:46:21.160 want to sign too? 1:46:21.640 --> 1:46:23.000 He's the one that broke on the golf course. 1:46:23.040 --> 1:46:25.360 You didn't get to sign to. Were you at Virgin 1:46:26.120 --> 1:46:27.840 with the Perfect Circle his side group? 1:46:28.120 --> 1:46:30.800 No, I didn't. I don't think they made any records 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:33.200 while I was there, so they may have been signed there, 1:46:33.200 --> 1:46:34.479 but I never got to deal with that. I did 1:46:34.560 --> 1:46:36.800 try to sign him as a solo artist as well, 1:46:37.360 --> 1:46:39.280 and that didn't work out either. So yeah, that was 1:46:39.280 --> 1:46:41.680 Perfect Circle, right, I tried to sign perfect Circle, so 1:46:41.720 --> 1:46:45.200 he he he left me at the altar twice. You know, 1:46:45.760 --> 1:46:46.519 I'm still a fan. 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:49.400 He's really I love his voice. 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:51.479 So yeah, I think those those were the most fun. 1:46:51.600 --> 1:46:53.360 I mean, I'm super proud of Tory Amos because I 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:56.120 think she's had a real impact on music and culture. 1:46:57.080 --> 1:46:58.040 There's a lot we didn't mention. 1:46:58.080 --> 1:47:00.599 We didn't get to talk about Lord or Jesse, Jay 1:47:00.760 --> 1:47:04.679 or I didn't even ask for di'angelo nightmare story. 1:47:04.880 --> 1:47:10.200 Oh we already have plenty of those, right. 1:47:10.520 --> 1:47:13.280 I think we got off our questions out. We thank 1:47:13.320 --> 1:47:14.679 you very much for coming on the show. 1:47:15.720 --> 1:47:18.879 Well, we finished credit and we started considering. I garbled 1:47:18.960 --> 1:47:21.040 my wrap. 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:26.320 Yeah yeah, on behalf of Boss Bill Unpaid, Bill Sugar, 1:47:26.360 --> 1:47:33.320 Steve Fan, Tickelo and it's like Elite, It's Lee or Cohen. No, 1:47:33.400 --> 1:47:35.479 it's like this is Quest Love signing off. Thank you 1:47:35.560 --> 1:47:37.960 very much Jason for joining us, and so let's key too. 1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:43.160 Right, make sure you make sure he signs rease form too. 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:45.000 We will see you next week on the next go 1:47:45.160 --> 1:47:47.800 round of Quest Love Supreme, only on Pandora. 1:47:56.400 --> 1:47:56.679 West. 1:47:56.680 --> 1:48:00.000 Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. This class 1:48:00.040 --> 1:48:01.599 said of U Soap was produced by the. 1:48:01.600 --> 1:48:02.920 Team at Maandora. 1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:10.880 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:48:11.000 --> 1:48:12.679 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.