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Speaker 1: Of Course.

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Speaker 2: Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode

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Speaker 2: was produced by the team at Pandora Ladies and Gentlemen.

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Speaker 2: This is QLs classic from January third, twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: We talked to Jason Flom. Names like plant, familiar with what.

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Speaker 2: His impact is felt, name of either Signed or Discovered

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Speaker 2: or A and R, Katy Perry, Lord Sugar, Red Blue

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Speaker 2: Man Group, Haley Williams in Paramol, Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravin's Coldplay,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Jay, and list goes on.

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Speaker 1: And this man has spent the first half.

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Speaker 2: Of his life and making consisis dreams come true and

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Speaker 2: the second half of his life in the end his

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Speaker 2: career shining the light of those who have been wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 2: He's the host of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. This

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Speaker 2: podcast features apps with women who have spent time in

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Speaker 2: the prison system or trying to fight the prison system

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Speaker 2: as we now know it. Kardashians of Meat and Hill,

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Speaker 2: Amanda Knox, Rodney Reed and he's trying to bring them

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Speaker 2: their freedom.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this episode. You will listen last

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Speaker 1: say with Jason for here we go. Just follow us.

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Speaker 3: Supremo, sup sup Supremo roll call.

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Speaker 4: Supremo Su Supremo roll call, Suprema South Supremo, roll call

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Speaker 4: Suprema Sun Sun Supremo roll call.

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Speaker 1: Swear to God. Yeah, from this day on. Yeah, on

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Speaker 1: my speed down, We'll be Supremo suck you never know.

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Speaker 4: Roll call Suprema Son Su Supremo role call.

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Speaker 1: My name is Fante.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm much blacker yeah than the audience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for Uncle Cracker.

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Speaker 4: Sun Supremo, roll call Supremo Sun Sun Supremo.

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Speaker 3: Roll call.

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Speaker 1: Name is Sugar. Yeah, y'all try to stay calm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but on ancestry dot com.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a flying Supremo.

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Speaker 4: Roll call Supremo Supremo roll call.

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Speaker 1: Bill woke up Yeah with the song on his mind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, Jason Flahm. Yeah, for a week by White Lion Supremo.

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Speaker 4: Roll was a Suprema So Supremo roll called.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, everybody united.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Jason Fea, we gonna fight him, That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: Suprema Roll.

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Speaker 3: Supremo, roll call me Dolly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm the Obama. I don't know what to come up. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I'll tell you this.

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Speaker 4: Suprema Son Subprevo roll call suppreva su supremo, roll call, supremo, supremo.

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Speaker 3: Roll.

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Speaker 1: I love a good car crash every now and then

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Speaker 1: about that. No, you know, use right up there. At

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Speaker 1: least he didn't freeze up completely like some guests do. Exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you handle it fairly with white cleft.

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Speaker 3: Tried to teach me how to freestyle. It just didn't

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Speaker 3: work out.

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Speaker 6: Freestyle.

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Speaker 7: You don't you start with a freestyle. You gotta start

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Speaker 7: with the freestyle as hard.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that's.

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Speaker 2: Going to college. Yeah, just start your basic rhyme. Make

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Speaker 2: sure and I'm here to say, is your second one?

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Speaker 2: That's your that's your start.

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Speaker 3: He didn't tell me that. Yeah, it's gonna drop some

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Speaker 3: roses and reddish violets are bluish. You know. I'm not

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Speaker 3: very religious, but if I was, i'd be Jewish. But

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Speaker 3: it just like it is.

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Speaker 1: Steve is in love already, man.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I got a nice little diverse crowd here,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Thank you very twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 3: very much too much.

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Speaker 1: Solf missing one of our white guys. Yeah we are,

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Speaker 1: actually yes, he's actually he's at his job.

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Speaker 2: We're hooking from our job to be here at this

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Speaker 2: other job anyway, Ladies and gentlemen, our guest today. He

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Speaker 2: has entered the professional music world or the industry, in

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Speaker 2: his early twenties as an A and R REP, later

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Speaker 2: as head in Our Atlantic Records. Might I also add

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Speaker 2: under the Urdigon iron Fist, which basically means that he

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Speaker 2: literally learned from the best h He's signed Twisted, Sister,

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Speaker 2: White Lions, get Row, Tori Amos, Stone, Temple of Pilots

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Speaker 2: name a few, and in nineteen ninety five he co

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Speaker 2: found it or found it Lava Records, which was an

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Speaker 2: Atlantic subsidiary signing the likes of all the nineties t

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Speaker 2: R L staples like Kid Rock and Uncle.

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Speaker 1: Cracker and oh Yeah, Massbox twenty Core in Sugar Bay,

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Speaker 1: I believe yeah. And then since.

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Speaker 3: Then, those days were fun.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine. Yeah, I was in college with those

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Speaker 1: Sugar Records.

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Speaker 2: And since then and his world domination mission. Uh you,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry you. I'm telling you what you did. He

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Speaker 2: led the Virgin in the Capitol Records merger, working with

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Speaker 2: the Rolling Stones, Lenny Kravitz, even Coldplay, particular favorite of fantees.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that you have gazillion questions not to mention

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Speaker 2: He's led many to the Promised Land. It's such unknown

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Speaker 2: acts as Katie Perry thirty seconds to marsh multiple multiple

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Speaker 2: plantum x, but way it gets worse.

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Speaker 1: He's also the founding member of the Innocence.

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Speaker 3: Project founding board member.

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Speaker 1: The founding board.

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Speaker 2: Member, I'm sorry of the Innocence Project not to mention

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Speaker 2: the Bronx Freedom Fund FAM, which is a great acronym

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Speaker 2: for Families against man intory minimums UH, basically trying to

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Speaker 2: ensure that those that are caught up in the law

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Speaker 2: with wrongful convictions get their proper due in court, get retrials,

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Speaker 2: get get out, Yes, get freedom. Yeah, we can go

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Speaker 2: on and on and yeah. She also signed Jesse, j

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Speaker 2: and Lord. I'll add at the end, ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 2: please welcome to our first show of the new year.

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Speaker 1: Jason flomp to question.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, dude, I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 3: Kind of an honor. Actually, we've gotta be honest.

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Speaker 2: We're excited because you're a true record man, but you're

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Speaker 2: also freedom fighter.

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Speaker 1: Like one of the last record man like this.

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Speaker 2: Dude, you knew I'm at Urnigan, which means something to

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Speaker 2: someone that's watching from afar. I don't know how much

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Speaker 2: that means to you, but that means, like it.

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Speaker 3: Was incredible everything around that man. I mean he was

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Speaker 3: he was every bit the legend that everybody thinks he was,

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Speaker 3: and uh maybe the greatest of all time. You know.

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Speaker 3: When he was on it was, you know, and I

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Speaker 3: caught the tail end of that. But then I got

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Speaker 3: to work under him. You know, he became more of

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Speaker 3: like an honorary chairman. But I got to work under

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Speaker 3: him for twenty five years. I mean it was an awesome,

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Speaker 3: awesome experience. I mean, what else can you say? The

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Speaker 3: guy died at Rolling Stones concert, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Like to the end, right, he was a legend to

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Speaker 3: the fucking end, I mean the best.

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Speaker 2: So would you consider yourself the last of his? Of

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Speaker 2: his disciples? Like, I feel like those that have studied

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Speaker 2: under him have went on to you know, reach further

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Speaker 2: than other people in the music business, probably rivaling maybe

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Speaker 2: Clive Davis as far as influences concern Like, would you

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Speaker 2: consider yourself the last of his?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know, you know, I guess Craig Kalman

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Speaker 3: came up under him as well. And Craig's obviously done

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Speaker 3: amazing stuff. Still does, and so you know, we worked

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Speaker 3: together for a while and yeah, so it was it

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Speaker 3: was just an amazing time to be growing up in

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Speaker 3: the music industry. You know, I actually started Atlantic when

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Speaker 3: I was eighteen, and you know, the first time I

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Speaker 3: met omit, which is really kind of tell us. So

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Speaker 3: I started off putting up posters in record stores, which

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Speaker 3: I thought was the greatest job in the world. I

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Speaker 3: had a staple gun, some double sided tape, some led

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Speaker 3: Zeppelin posters, a CDC sister sled Chic. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: was just it was incredible mid seventies. You were there

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Speaker 3: was seventy nine. So I run around the record stores

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Speaker 3: and climb up on ladders and put up posters and

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Speaker 3: like it was just it was a great way to

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Speaker 3: meet girls. I was incredible.

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Speaker 1: So the PA job, I'm laughing.

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Speaker 2: Wait, let me just pause this all right, for those

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Speaker 2: that you that don't know, I meant the the mom

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Speaker 2: and dad.

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Speaker 1: The mom and pop.

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Speaker 2: Record store was a staple of the seventies and the

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Speaker 2: eighties more than what the chains were in the in

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Speaker 2: the Tower records. But me as a kid growing up

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Speaker 2: in the seventies, going to the mom and pop stores

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Speaker 2: my favorite part of that whole experience was seeing the

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Speaker 2: window display of how those posters would go up, of

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Speaker 2: which when I would go home and everyone would play house.

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Speaker 1: Or whatever, I played records.

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Speaker 2: I used to do that too, and like because some

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Speaker 2: of that I didn't know that some of those, like

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Speaker 2: J cards and cards were not records, they were posters,

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Speaker 2: so they'd be bent in a particular way. So I

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Speaker 2: would take my father's records and try and then the record,

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Speaker 2: Yeah I broke, like the Honey record, broke the Commodore's

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Speaker 2: debut album, trying to staple them to the wall and

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Speaker 2: bend them a certain way. So you are who I

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Speaker 2: have to blame for many a punishment.

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Speaker 3: Well knowing that, but probably half of my displays were

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Speaker 3: either crooked or upside down because I was so stoned.

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Speaker 3: So because I mean, weed was a big thing back then.

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Speaker 1: Man, I I.

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Speaker 3: Got news to tell you. Yeah game But anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So I had this great job. I thought it was

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Speaker 3: the greatest job in the world, and I got free records.

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Speaker 3: I was like, this is it, Like I've peaked at

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Speaker 3: eighteen years old. I can't do better, right, And then

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Speaker 3: I discovered a band called Zebra right, and it's a

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Speaker 3: crazy story how that even happened, But it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 3: I determined that I wanted to get a job doing

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Speaker 3: A and R because it looked like a great job

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Speaker 3: to me, And so I found a band. Through a

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Speaker 3: series of luck and synchronicity and serendipity and perseverance and

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Speaker 3: a little bit of intelligence, I managed to find this

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Speaker 3: band and became a hit. So they gave me a

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Speaker 3: job doing A and R. I must have been twenty

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Speaker 3: years old. I got a little office at Atlantic Records,

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Speaker 3: and one day I'm sitting in there hi with the

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Speaker 3: drummer from my high school band. We were actually in

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Speaker 3: there hanging out like pondering, as we had just gone

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Speaker 3: out and smoked a couple of joints. We came back

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Speaker 3: and we were sitting there just in fucking amazement and

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Speaker 3: shocked that I was getting paid to listen to music.

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Speaker 3: I was like, how is this even possible? Right? I

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Speaker 3: can't believe it. So, as we're sitting there in this haze,

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Speaker 3: am It's secretary knocks on the door. Her name was

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Speaker 3: Jenny Lynn. She knocks on the door and she pokes

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Speaker 3: her head and she goes, AHMUT would like to see you,

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Speaker 3: And I go you're fullest shit. And then he looks

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Speaker 3: in and goes, no, she's not. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: give me, I gotta get cleaned up here. What am

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Speaker 3: I going to do so with that fresh buzz on,

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Speaker 3: you know? So I went in his office. Man, he

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Speaker 3: had some kid in there that he had met in

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Speaker 3: a club in the Bronx, you know, because he used

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Speaker 3: to go clubbing and ship right, and this kid, I remember,

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Speaker 3: this kid was taking a cigarettes cigarette butts out of

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Speaker 3: the astray and relighting them right, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: he was kind of a desperate looking kid, but he

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Speaker 3: was on some like crazy type of music thing that

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Speaker 3: I didn't even understand. I mean, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: tell im. You know, I'm a rock guy. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what the fuck you're talking about. I was just like, hm, yes,

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Speaker 3: I was good. What was I gonna say. I'm sitting

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Speaker 3: there in the presence of the greatest like a deity,

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Speaker 3: and I'm high and I don't know what the hell's

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Speaker 3: going on. I don't even know how I'm here. So

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Speaker 3: it was it was an amazing It's an amazing way

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Speaker 3: to start a relationship. Who was the kid? I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember but that was your first band. That

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Speaker 2: was the first Byeah.

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Speaker 3: They had a song called Who's Behind the Door that

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Speaker 3: was a.

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Speaker 1: Big he was signed to Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: You signed them to Yeah, and they sounded exactly like

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Speaker 3: led Zeppe, Which is funny because I have a band

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Speaker 3: now called Greta van Fleet who also sound like led Zeppelin,

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Speaker 3: and they're blowing up. They're actually they may actually save

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Speaker 3: rock and roll. These kids, it's incredible. I think they're

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Speaker 3: going to I mean, it's really fun. They're they're great musicians.

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Speaker 3: He sings like fucking Robbert Plant and the kids are

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Speaker 3: eating it up. So I think the I think the tide,

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Speaker 3: the pendulum is swinging back to rock and roll.

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Speaker 2: I gotta ask how how I mean you're you're lucky streak.

242
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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, i'd be rereminious to say that.

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Speaker 2: You know, the artists that you sign, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the help of MTV, you know, you kind of route

245
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Speaker 2: each other. A lot of the artists that you sign

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Speaker 2: that blew up your first wave, your Twisted Sisters, your

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Speaker 2: your first wave of metal bands that you signed to Atlantic.

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Speaker 1: Uh, how do you feel about the.

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Speaker 2: Theory of having good ears or that whole theory of

250
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Speaker 2: did you were you like the new blood that beyond

251
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Speaker 2: the ears and like they have a look, they have

252
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Speaker 2: a charisma. I mean just the fact that seventies X

253
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Speaker 2: were about Okay, they sound good.

254
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Speaker 1: You know they could be ugly and still have a hit.

255
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Speaker 2: Yes, the Christopher Cross exactly what was exactly what my

256
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Speaker 2: head like, I am a twist assisterm fan. I knew

257
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Speaker 2: all those That's how you know it's successful. When I

258
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Speaker 2: knew I want to rock and all that ship like.

259
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Speaker 3: Well, twisted Sister was a different story because what happened

260
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Speaker 3: was I had found Zebra, and I was so excited

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Speaker 3: because then I got this little office and a little

262
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Speaker 3: job doing A and R because they were having a hit.

263
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Speaker 3: And then and then the guy from Zebra his name

264
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Speaker 3: was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson that we're all

265
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Speaker 3: friends with, but the different Randy Jackson.

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Speaker 1: So there's a third one, not Michael's brother not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of them jests, right, you know you

268
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Speaker 3: can google that. You can actually google how many of

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Speaker 3: me dot com and you can see how many people

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Speaker 3: have your same name. And there's four Jason Floms in

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Speaker 3: this country, you know. So but anyway, yeah, yeah, she's

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Speaker 3: on it. So anyway, so the guy so Randy says

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Speaker 3: to me one day Flom, he goes, Twisted Sisters the

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Speaker 3: greatest live band in the world. He goes, we can't

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Speaker 3: touch him, and neither can anyone else. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: no shit, okay, well let me check this shit out,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I went up to, uh, Poughkeepsie on

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Speaker 3: a Wednesday night, and uh, for those of you who

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Speaker 3: don't know, I Poughkeepsie's about one hundred miles north of

280
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Speaker 3: New York City, and uh, it's funny name, Poughkeepsie. But anyway,

281
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Speaker 3: Zebra was opening for Twisted Sister, which I thought was

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Speaker 3: kind of weird because Zebra was signed to Twisted, was it.

283
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Speaker 3: And anyway, there was three thousand kids that are on

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Speaker 3: a Wednesday night at six Bucks ahead and we're talking whatever.

285
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Speaker 3: This was nineteen eighty eighty one when six Bucks was

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Speaker 3: six bucks, right, and uh, every one of these kids

287
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Speaker 3: is wearing a Twisted Sister T shirt. And d Snyder

288
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Speaker 3: comes out on stage and it's like thunder in there, right,

289
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 3: the kids are about to riot. And he gets up

290
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Speaker 3: and he goes, all right, New York. He goes, we

291
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Speaker 3: just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking

292
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Speaker 3: tired of here was lie me, motherfucker's telling us how

293
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Speaker 3: bloody fucking good we are. What do you New York

294
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Speaker 3: motherfuckers have to say? And all three thousand kids throw

295
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Speaker 3: their fists in the ear and go twisted fucking sister.

296
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Speaker 3: And I was like, get the fuck out of here.

297
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Speaker 3: I don't even care if they can play their inscrments,

298
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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Nothing matters from that point forward. I'm like,

299
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 3: this one comes with instructions, you know what I mean.

300
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Speaker 3: And then of course they put on that crazy live show,

301
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Speaker 3: which was amazing. I mean, because they had done thousands

302
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Speaker 3: and thousands of shows by that point, nobody would sign them.

303
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 3: They were considered a joke. The funny thing was, I

304
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Speaker 3: come back to the city. I drove back with the

305
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Speaker 3: guitar player JJ and uh. I don't know if I

306
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,880
Speaker 3: got home at four or five or whatever the hell

307
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Speaker 3: it was. And I walked into my boss's office the

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Speaker 3: next morning on two hours of sleep, and god knows

309
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Speaker 3: how many kinds of you know, Intuxicans exactly, thank you.

310
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Speaker 3: And I walk in and I go, I found religion

311
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Speaker 3: last night, and he goes, what the fuck are you

312
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Speaker 3: talking about? And I go Twisted sister, and he goes,

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Speaker 3: get the fuck out of my office. And I was like,

314
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Speaker 3: I didn't know that they were considered it.

315
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Speaker 2: So they were already known as a joke amongst the.

316
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Speaker 3: They'd been passed on so many times by everybody's the

317
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,600
Speaker 3: music industry. Now they were you know, back then, they were,

318
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Speaker 3: you know, known for wearing women's right Sometimes you'd come

319
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Speaker 3: out on a dog collar with a chain or he

320
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,800
Speaker 3: did you know, makeup and finging out possible by the way,

321
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 3: who cares, right, Rocky Horror was a hit anyway, so yeah, kiss, yeah,

322
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,440
Speaker 3: But anyway, nobody would sign him, and I went to

323
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Speaker 3: see him again the next night in South Jersey. Had

324
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 3: thirty seven hundred kids there, and I was like, this

325
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Speaker 3: has got it. This is my mission and life. The

326
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 3: funny thing was I finally got shut down permanently, and

327
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 3: they would not sign. My boss would not sign him,

328
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Speaker 3: no matter what. He threatened to fire me if I

329
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Speaker 3: ever mentioned the name Twisted.

330
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Speaker 1: Who is your boss at Atlantic?

331
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Speaker 3: You're actually going to call him out for this? I

332
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Speaker 3: don't know about that.

333
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 2: Let me so many years years anyway, the president of

334
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 2: Atlantic back then, so not on it.

335
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Speaker 1: Okay, okay.

336
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 3: So, so the funny thing was, I saw the head

337
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 3: of the English company, guy named Phil Arson, in the

338
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 3: hallway one day. I knew he was I didn't know him,

339
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 3: but I knew he was like a serious guy, like

340
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 3: he had signed a c DC and shit, he was

341
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 3: like a real guy, you know. I was like, So

342
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 3: I go up to him. I go, mister Carson, here's

343
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,360
Speaker 3: the I told him this whole story. I'm like stumbling

344
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 3: over my words. I'm so excited to write a hand

345
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 3: on the thing or everything. He told me. Later he

346
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: threw the whole thing in the garbage. But then he

347
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 3: happened to see them opening by accident for I think

348
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,439
Speaker 3: Foreigner or something in London. One day he calls you up.

349
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,120
Speaker 3: The next day he goes, this is the best thing

350
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:25,920
Speaker 3: I seen since I saw I see DC. I'm gonna

351
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,640
Speaker 3: sign him. So he signed them. We backdoored it into

352
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 3: America and then ultimately, of course they became a monster

353
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Speaker 3: hit and it was a lot of fun while it lasted.

354
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Speaker 2: You know, well, yeah, I mean, I guess till what

355
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,160
Speaker 2: eighty Well, they at least had two.

356
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,439
Speaker 3: They had one. The first album was like a moderate success.

357
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,920
Speaker 3: It's called You Can't stop rock and roll. And the

358
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Speaker 3: second one was stay Hungry, and of course that was

359
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Speaker 3: We're not going to take it and I want to

360
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 3: rock and you know all that's.

361
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Speaker 6: What I'm not gonna take it. That changed my life.

362
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 6: That even old enough to remember that I remember the

363
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 6: video was really I thought you.

364
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Speaker 1: Were born.

365
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 2: Your older siblings told you about it, yeah.

366
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 7: On the internet. But yes, yeah, we're not going to

367
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 7: take it.

368
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,680
Speaker 1: Everything good, So I guess you would.

369
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 2: I guess one could say that you were like the

370
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,719
Speaker 2: new blood at Atlantic, Whereas, because I've seen this happen

371
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Speaker 2: where something doesn't translate to someone that's a baby boomer,

372
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 2: like say one of your NR peers who was born

373
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Speaker 2: maybe in like forty three, forty four, forty five that's

374
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,479
Speaker 2: slightly older that you know, thinks that this is just

375
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 2: you know, trash and wouldn't translate is absolute garbage, whereas you,

376
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,959
Speaker 2: being slightly younger being I guess you could say a

377
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 2: generation xer.

378
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 1: Finds make sense of it all.

379
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,879
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I mean I loved you know I

380
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 3: grew up on When I was a kid, my favorite

381
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 3: artist were Zeppelin, Arrowsmith, the Beatles, Bob Dylan. You know

382
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 3: those wuld probably be my top four, but there were

383
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,159
Speaker 3: so many. I mean, back then you had you know,

384
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 3: Queen would definitely be my top five too. I mean

385
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,959
Speaker 3: that those are the greatest. It was like a renaissance

386
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 3: to me, you know, musically in America and the world

387
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,440
Speaker 3: actually because a lot most of those actually came from England.

388
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,400
Speaker 3: But it was just an incredible period. But I grew

389
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 3: up on guitar music, right, I like guitar music, and

390
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 3: so to me the hard rock bands, and it peaked

391
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 3: with Guns and Roses. Obviously I didn't sign Guns and Roses,

392
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 3: but that that era was. It's actually I think a

393
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 3: lot of those bands are underrated. I mean some of

394
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,439
Speaker 3: them weren't. Some of them were terrible, but you know,

395
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 3: some of them were actually underrated. And I think skid

396
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 3: Row was a great band, Like I mean, he was

397
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 3: an incredible singer and those first two albums were magical.

398
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 2: So did you sign all of the hair metal acts

399
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 2: of Atlantic?

400
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: Were you responsible for most of them?

401
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,640
Speaker 3: I didn't sign Rat I missed that one, but most

402
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 3: of them I signed, And you know it was uh.

403
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: Which one got away that you almost freaking had and love.

404
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 3: I've been in therapy for years trying to forget them.

405
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 2: You give me your top three, your top three could

406
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 2: have had him in.

407
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 3: Oh fuck, I mean I listened. I had a meeting

408
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 3: with bon Jovi early on, you know what I mean. Now,

409
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 3: now bear in mind, I think that bon Jovi signing

410
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 3: to Mercury was the best thing that could happened to

411
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 3: him because they made a decision that they were going

412
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 3: to put the whole building behind him, because they were

413
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 3: going to go broke if they didn't break somebody. And

414
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 3: you know, remember that company was or it was a PolyGram.

415
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 3: They were being sold for fifty million dollars, the whole company,

416
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 3: and also some genius at that company had the idea

417
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 3: to put them together with Desmond Child, which on paper

418
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,919
Speaker 3: wouldn't seem to make sense, right Desmond was like a

419
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 3: gay guy disco songwriter, like bon Jovi was sort of

420
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 3: this like macho kid from New Jersey doing rock and roll.

421
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 3: But somebody had that vision to put them together. And

422
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 3: that's where the greatest songs came from, was that collaboration. Okay,

423
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 3: so you know, so who knows. You know, we can

424
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 3: go back through history and you know and see what's what,

425
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: But that would certainly be you know.

426
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:01,679
Speaker 1: You could have had him.

427
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: I think we could have had him. I think, you know,

428
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 3: we came close. What else did I come close on? Oh?

429
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 3: I mean I tried. I tried like hell to sign Tool,

430
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 3: but I didn't get them. I would have loved to

431
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 3: get a Tool. Yeah, I mean, I don't know why.

432
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,399
Speaker 3: I still don't know why. I mean I schmoozed them

433
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 3: and did whatever I could and didn't get it. And

434
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 3: I can't think of the third one. It'll come back

435
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 3: to me.

436
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 2: So as a rock and guitar guy, I just have

437
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 2: to know, from a professional standpoint, what was your feelings

438
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: about the watershed moment in which Nirvana arrived and sort

439
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: of rendered kind of the domino setup that you have

440
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: for the eighties almost.

441
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: Void. I mean, I've heard tales of artists speaking, So

442
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: what was your when Nirvana came along and sort of

443
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: marked the end of the hair metal guitar acts.

444
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: Did you feel a particular way about their arrival or

445
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 2: were you like, Okay, well this is this is on

446
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 2: to the new and let me, you know, get ahead

447
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: of the pack and see what else is out there?

448
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 2: Or were you sort of a traditionalist hair metal and

449
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: you know.

450
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 3: You know, I felt like you could kind of see

451
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 3: it coming because my feeling is that my theory is

452
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 3: that the musical trends are dictated by whoever makes the

453
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 3: best music. Right, That's how musical trends happen. Is that

454
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: the most creativity.

455
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: Are you sure about that though? I think so?

456
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 3: Why what do you think you.

457
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: As the most money?

458
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 2: Because there's musical trends happening now that isn't necessarily the

459
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 2: best music, but it's popular. Like can you separate the

460
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 2: difference between popular and what you feel in your heart?

461
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 3: Well, that's a very deep question, right, I mean, you know, Okay,

462
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 3: let's not call it musical trends. Then let's talk about movements.

463
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: Important movements happen, right, and then you can go back

464
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: to like it's it's interesting when even going back to

465
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 3: when disco happened, right, Why did disco happen because the

466
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 3: creativity was incredible back then, right? Or why did rap

467
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,959
Speaker 3: come up? Right? And why is it still what it is?

468
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: Because there's actual geniuses making music in that genre. Right.

469
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: There haven't been any rock and roll geniuses probably since

470
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: Jack White, So you know, it's hard for that to

471
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 3: maintain when you don't have that influx of creativity that

472
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 3: you that you need to sustain a movement. And then

473
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 3: even going back to what you were asking about with Nirvada,

474
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 3: the hair band thing, like I said, it peaked with

475
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: guns and roses and then it went off a cliff. Right,

476
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 3: you had bands coming up and actually getting over that

477
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 3: were terrible. I mean, and we can name them if

478
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 3: we want to, but it was okay, so.

479
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I.

480
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 3: Mean, you know, I don't want to mention names, but

481
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: bullet Boys and Trickster and fire House and like.

482
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: So eventually I grew up in Indiana.

483
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 3: Man, Okay, there you go. So yeah, you can kind

484
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 3: of see like this was not this was like imitation stuff.

485
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: And if they're listening, you know, I'll probably get like

486
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 3: nasty direct messages on my Instagram, but whatever. You know,

487
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 3: the fact is, you know, it was ripe for change,

488
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: and there has there's always a reaction. And then all

489
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 3: of a sudden, the Seattle sound came up and you

490
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 3: had geniuses again, right, you had Nirvana. I mean, I

491
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: think Alison Chains was incredible. Obviously, Pearl Jam is music

492
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 3: that people will be listening to one hundred years from now.

493
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: So it's unfortunately, like I said, in guitar music, I

494
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: think that was the last wave of music that will

495
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 3: be time capsule music.

496
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: I have a slight theory though, because okay, because hip

497
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: hop was created out of sort of the impoverished conditions

498
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: of the inner city, and thus this culture comes in

499
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: seventy seven. I have a weird feeling that what's going

500
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: on right now in society, ticularly with the slow rise

501
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: or the you know us finally acknowledging the literal white

502
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: elephant in the room of the the alts right kind

503
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: of the the the anger, be it justified or unjustified, whatever,

504
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: you know, whatever your feelings are about it. But I

505
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: almost feel like it's it's that anger that might spark

506
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: up rock and roll, like what we knew as rock

507
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 2: and roll, which was non existence, because I mean, the

508
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 2: reason why hip hop sort of replaced rock and roll because.

509
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: It was angrier.

510
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: Like it's it's like after fuk the police.

511
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: Like where do you go for? You can't you can't

512
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: get any deeper.

513
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: And as far as like hip hop's concerned, always felt

514
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: that fifty.

515
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: Killed hip hop easily.

516
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: After after well, no, no, I know where you're going

517
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: with because after fifty was there was no more money

518
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: after yeah, after after heat, after you get sad times

519
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 2: and make it. It's like, okay, how do you become

520
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 2: exactly like he said, I'll kill you? And then that's it.

521
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: After that song and heat with you know, the song

522
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: with Doctor Dre had the gun gun shot snare, like

523
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: to really drive the point home because you missed it.

524
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: That was the end. That was like you couldn't get

525
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: no more extreme in that.

526
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: And then hip hop is now you know, user friendly,

527
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 2: it's heavy baton.

528
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 6: You think rock and roll is ready to pick that up?

529
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: Is trying I think like Scrillics is trying to.

530
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: But I feel like this general, I feel like millennials

531
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: are so all inclusive with mixing their cultures and everything

532
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: that not even ed m was scary, even though that was.

533
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: Supposed to be the supposed to be scary.

534
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: The bus noise, I mean that was supposed to be

535
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: like every generation has their rebel noise. We had eight

536
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: to weight, the seventies had guitars like the the war war.

537
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: Sorry you didn't think that weight was I figured it

538
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: would have been the scratch to the record scratch the

539
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: way it's pretty scary though.

540
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: Well not scary, but just the presence that it is

541
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: impact And I feel like some anger is going to

542
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: come out in music again, directed or misdirected, poverty or not.

543
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: And I feel like.

544
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 6: I wish you to hurry up, you know, do you

545
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 6: feel that because you're there.

546
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 5: I'm still waiting for it to happen. When he said

547
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 5: it was gonna happen during the Bush era, so yeah,

548
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 5: I was wrong.

549
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually weird that it hasn't happened, because if

550
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: there was ever a time to get angry, it's now.

551
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: I mean, it's never been more obvious, because I mean,

552
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: ship George Bush looks like George Washington all of a sudden,

553
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: the worst president ever, all of a sudden, everybody's wishing

554
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 3: he was back. I mean, if we could have a

555
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: national referendum and bring him back, I'd lead it, you

556
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: know what I mean?

557
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, at their current conditions.

558
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, any one of them. Absolutely, Barbara Bush.

559
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, But you know what, maybe because music has become

560
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 7: so corporately involved and I don't know, with the whole

561
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 7: scaring of the NFL and things, do you think maybe

562
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 7: artists are taking note of that.

563
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 6: And I'm speak a little and I'm a Graham, but.

564
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: Like, how crazy that the civil rights leader of our

565
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 3: era is a quarterback, right, I mean, how crazy it's

566
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: supposed to be music. I don't know what's going on.

567
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: I mean, Dixie Chicks.

568
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: I don't think.

569
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: People don't want to mess up their money. Like that's

570
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: what I'm asking Like a musician now.

571
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: Like you want to be.

572
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: They want to be in bed with all the corporate

573
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: sponsors and all of that ship. So they don't want

574
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: to say anything that will remotely even fuck up the

575
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: chances of them getting some outside bread.

576
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: They want that Kitcat commercial.

577
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: They want a kit Cat commercial, they want to Sprite commercial,

578
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: they want all that, but.

579
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: There's gotta be some I mean, that's a really, that's

580
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: that's it. It really hurts me to hear you say that,

581
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: and it's kind of it feels that way if it's

582
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: very cynical and it's like it sucks, you know. I mean,

583
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: somebody's got to come out and be the new dealan.

584
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: You would have to be the have not.

585
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: Like whoever's going to be the new dealan is has

586
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: to be a half not and be cool with being

587
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: a half not. I mean, you know, hip hop has

588
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: already tainted. You know, did he came along too much money?

589
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: Did he came along and showed us all these yachts

590
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: and ship and you know, I mean, I'm.

591
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 6: Trying can trick it somewhere, you know, you.

592
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 3: Know, you know what's the best protest song I've heard

593
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: in a while? Did you you know this song by

594
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: Brett dennan Ain't No Reason? Oh that's a good one.

595
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: You may have to play it on the show. Yeah,

596
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: it's it's about four years ago and he hasn't, you know,

597
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: become a commercial. You know, I was hoping he was

598
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: going to become bigger because that song's power did sign

599
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: I wanted to, But I think he may have stayed independent.

600
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what became with you Brett denn and

601
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: d E N and the N and the song is

602
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: Ain't No Reason strong ship. But so yeah, somebody's going

603
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: to come along, and you know what, whoever it does

604
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: and does it right is going to own it because

605
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: nobody else is doing it. So there's that giant hole.

606
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: David Foster likes to talk about that hole in the marketplace.

607
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: Sometimes I don't think this is what he meant. But

608
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: in this in this case, there is a void, and

609
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: somebody's going to come along and fill that void. And

610
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: you know, some of the rappers are talking some straight stuff, right,

611
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean.

612
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 6: Chance logic, yeah, logic definitely, so.

613
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 3: You know, but it doesn't it's not anywhere near what

614
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: it could be and should be. Where's the Colin Kaepernick

615
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: of music? Come on, let's go.

616
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: Celebrity has ruined the industry. And that's the thing. Even

617
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: if we find that person.

618
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: They're gonna go off for the reality show and.

619
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: They'll be lifted to celebrity heights so big that they

620
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: can't you know, they they would have to. Unfortunately, I

621
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 2: mean Kurt Kobaine's solution to that. You know what his

622
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: solution to avoiding becoming a cliche was, And that's, you know,

623
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: sadly what the reality is.

624
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: It's like, we find something and then we in trying

625
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: to avoid a cliche, he became one.

626
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: So I'll tell you this. I think somebody's out there

627
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: probably listening to this show who's got that gene that

628
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: won't let them be anything other than what they're meant

629
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 3: to be, which is exactly what we're hoping for. You know,

630
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 3: there's one motherfucker out there who's going to come out

631
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: and be like because they need to, because they have to,

632
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: and and they don't care about you know, sponsorships, and

633
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: they don't care about you know, I mean, it exists.

634
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: And if, like I said, the time is so ripe now,

635
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: oh my god.

636
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 5: Then how do you keep that kind of person motivated

637
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 5: to stay in the business Because you get these acts

638
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 5: that are they get hyped up to become the next

639
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 5: h next big thing and then they turn to Ja

640
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 5: Electronica and disappeared in front of an xbox for six years.

641
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 3: I think I think that that person does exist, And

642
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: like I said, it's it's almost like they're gonna have

643
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: to plug Maclamore made some really important records, right, I feel.

644
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 7: Like every time he does it kind of almost yes.

645
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 7: But yeah, that White Privilege, that song was amazing, but

646
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 7: I feel like nobody ever.

647
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: Heard Yeah so was the one the one about the

648
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: same Love. What a beautiful, beautiful record, I mean amazing.

649
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: And some of the statements he made her so powerful,

650
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: you know, I wish there was more of that, you know,

651
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: And but I but I'm an optimist and I believe

652
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: there will be because it has to be a reaction,

653
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: always has to be in a yang.

654
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: Speaking of which, Okay, I gotta say I was joking

655
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: by saying, speaking of which, let's talk about.

656
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Kid Rock man.

657
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: No, I gotta say, even though his politics anger the

658
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: ship out of me.

659
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: Speaking of Kid Rock, I loved Hamilton, No, but I was.

660
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: I will say that of any story of an artist

661
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: getting signed to a label, uh, his story is the greatest,

662
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: funniest story of all time, almost to the point where

663
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: I think I would almost invite him on the show

664
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: to do a one on one without you guys just.

665
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: Scared scared? Oh no you should be.

666
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: No, I mean we were.

667
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: We were thrilling. I mean, he ain't gonna, we ain't gonna.

668
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: God damn Kate walk right, But but do I keep

669
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: it respectful?

670
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? But a Republican he wasn't running. He was he was.

671
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: He was trying to sell us out.

672
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 6: He's not, okay because I appreciate it. Rock he said

673
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 6: some things that have been listened lately that I don't

674
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 6: know him no anymore?

675
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: No, no, yeah, no more?

676
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 3: How about those next seven and man things? You know

677
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: looking up.

678
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: Who won last?

679
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: So okay, I'm trying to move you down the timeline.

680
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: Why did you leave Atlantic Records? Did you have when?

681
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: When?

682
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: Uh?

683
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: I'm at Urican? First of all, just Okay, you already

684
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: explained that he was a guy like were you. Was

685
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: he approachable at all? Or was like when he was

686
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: in the building, everyone like straightened up and cleaned off

687
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: their desk and pulled out the yo yo.

688
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: And that's how I thought it, I was supposed to

689
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: be until I met him, and then I realized that

690
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: he was cooler than any of us, you know. And

691
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: he could he was known him. He could drink any

692
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 3: of the rock stars under the table. He could party

693
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: with the best of him.

694
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: What was his best story to you?

695
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 3: Oh?

696
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: His best story so many.

697
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: So he told me a story about when he was

698
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 3: at mixed wedding to Bianca, which one he was the best,

699
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: He was the best man. And it was in the

700
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 3: south of France, beautiful day, and he tells me they're

701
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: having a reception outdoors and everybody's there, all the local

702
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 3: officials are there, the mayor, chief of police, everybody else.

703
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: And he says, Keith's walking around with a bag of blow.

704
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: Of course he's this chessut.

705
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: Using one hand to shovel it into his face, right,

706
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 3: and I hang, you know, and the and he literally

707
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 3: bumps into the chief of police of whatever it is

708
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 3: niece or whatever town they're in. I remember it. And

709
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: so the chief of police says to I'm in French

710
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: because I'm spoke French. He spoke a lot of languages,

711
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: I think, and he says to him something I'm going

712
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: to mess up to French. But he says kiss pudre, right,

713
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 3: which I think means what is this powder? Right? And

714
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: am it goes, oh, you know what, of course in French.

715
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 3: But he says, uh, this is they're not only musicians also,

716
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 3: they're clowns. And he starts pulling this stuff out and

717
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: popping it on his face.

718
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, only if I could do that, right.

719
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: But he had stories of Jim Moore, I mean all

720
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: the you know, like everybody. I mean, it's it's so

721
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: great being around him, you know. I do want to

722
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: get back to how I left Atlantic, by the way,

723
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: because that's a great story.

724
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: All right, How did you leave?

725
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 3: I got fired over a poem that I wrote.

726
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, wow, it's the word get you have a time.

727
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: The story goes expecting this. So I was working there.

728
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: I had been named almost twenty five years to the

729
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: day that I walked in there on July thirty first,

730
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine. It was my first day work in

731
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 3: the Atlantic, and you know, eighteen years old. About twenty

732
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: five years later, I get named chairman and CEO of

733
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: the company. I sold my company, Lava, to them, and

734
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 3: they offered me the job, and I was It's funny

735
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 3: because my first reaction when they said, you know, you

736
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: can actually run the place, I was like, you mean

737
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: I get to decide whether it's a snow day, Like

738
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 3: are you kidding me? Because I still felt like that

739
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: eighteen year old kid. You know, this is under Doug

740
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: Marsh Now, yeah, he's under dunk ye. No, no, no,

741
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: this was under Leor. Now Leor was now running it

742
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: and Edgar. Yeah, Edgar had bought the company and Leor

743
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: was running it right or years Yeah, So there you go.

744
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 3: So strangely enough, I didn't get along with lee Or.

745
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: I know, thinks what all the guests have been on

746
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: the show have their best lee Or imitations. Ever, so

747
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: even when you talk, Leor say it in the lee

748
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: Or accent, because we'll have a.

749
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: Compilation of everyone imitating le Or on the show.

750
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: So this is Leor on the golf course. You're ready,

751
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 3: Oh my god, did you see how I hit that?

752
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: You cannot get the gop ball any better than that

753
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 3: shot was incredible. That shot was amazing.

754
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: Nos, Like I'm talking about or Trump. We don't want

755
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: you to do the President of the United States or

756
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: New York going.

757
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 3: Let me see, let me do it different. Okay. But

758
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 3: by the way, I had the misfortune of playing nine

759
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 3: holes with Trump about six or seven years ago. It's

760
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: a horrible experience. But anyway, Okay, we come back. We're

761
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 3: gonna come back. Okay.

762
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: So wait, can I ask you? In order to make

763
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: it to.

764
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: That big money level, am I going to have to

765
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: learn how to play golf?

766
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 4: Oh?

767
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: I think you're doing okay. I mean, I don't know

768
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: who your accounting is, but if you're not, you should

769
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: probably get a new one.

770
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: Powers talking about I'm talking about adding extra zeros to

771
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: my bank account because that's the one common denominator that

772
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: all my peers now that are jumping to that film,

773
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: that are making successful film and Louise Cliff jumped to

774
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: the other side of the mountain. They're all suddenly like playing.

775
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: And I'm not Puff doesn't play golf, does he?

776
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 6: He does music video?

777
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: So you never mentioned it to me?

778
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: Do you like golf? Wer do you know that's the

779
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: language of the well.

780
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 3: No, no, I like golf. It's a really fun sport.

781
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I actually broke kid Rock as a

782
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 3: result of a golf game. So it's been it's it's

783
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: very good for business. You know, it's because think about it,

784
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: you're out there for four hours, you're walking around, you're socializing.

785
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's beautiful. You're walking around on grass

786
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: and there's like trees and water and birds and ship

787
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: it's nice. And that's something. When you hit a golf

788
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: ball correctly, which doesn't happen that often for even the

789
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 3: best pros, they'll say, like you know, they don't actually like.

790
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 3: But when you actually pure the golf ball, you can

791
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: feel the ball compressed because you know that's physics, right,

792
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: The ball compresses and then explodes out. The energy explodes

793
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 3: out the other side, and you can actually feel the

794
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: ball compress against the club through your hands and into

795
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 3: your soul. I mean, it is like being connected to

796
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: the center of the fucking universe. And and then you

797
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: get unlike other sports, nobody hits you, nobody tackles. You

798
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: don't have to run, you don't have to catch anything.

799
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: You just stand there and admire your work as the

800
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: sails out over the horizon and lands gently on the green.

801
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 3: I mean it's a feeling, that is, it's our gasmic.

802
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 6: I'm telling you do need a couple of coins though.

803
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 7: That is the sport that you need coins for, because

804
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 7: you got to get into the golf course.

805
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 6: But you're fine, okay, Well you can play public and

806
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 6: warm up.

807
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: I used to play public golf courses all the time

808
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 3: before free or just well yeah, I mean you gotta

809
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: pay something.

810
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 7: I like playing golf. I'm not gonna say I'm good

811
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 7: at it, but I do like playing.

812
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 6: Black defying me. I like to play golf. I've had

813
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 6: a couple of Well, I haven't a man.

814
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: You gotta wait for a man.

815
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 6: I don't wait. But I'm just saying it's nice to

816
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 6: deal with a partner.

817
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's go play some golf. I will post

818
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: it on our Instagram. We're gonna go do it. I'll

819
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 3: take you on playing the snow because it's getting Coldut

820
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 3: I don't care.

821
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: He judged potential business partners or people that you're gonna

822
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: work with based on their golf game.

823
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: No, I mean, I don't care how somebody plays as

824
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 3: long as they don't play slow. That's if you're starting out,

825
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: just don't play slow.

826
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: You know.

827
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 3: I mean, nobody cares if you're good or bad or whatever.

828
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 3: Everybody's pretty wpped up in their own ship. But you know,

829
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 3: you just like keep it moving, and you know, it's

830
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: just it's a fun it's a fun game. It's extremely

831
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 3: frustrating game too, by the way. It's it's the craziest

832
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 3: thing because some days you can or you go from.

833
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: Hole to hole.

834
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: You could play like Tiger Woods. One hole in the

835
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: next hole, you're playing like super Sales, you know. So, yeah,

836
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 3: it's really weird. What a reference. I know, I gotta

837
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 3: tell you the poem story before. Yes, so I wasn't

838
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 3: getting along with Lee or right, I don't know. I

839
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: found it ironic that his name was liar, you know

840
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: what I mean. And one irony was killing me day

841
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: to day. So we didn't get a lot, and uh,

842
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: it was a very frustrating experience, you know. It was

843
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: it was a fun time and I signed Hailey Williams

844
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: back that it was called Paramore right and it was

845
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: you know, I was only chairman of Atlantic for about

846
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: a year, but it was good. It was you know.

847
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: I loved the was it? What was it that was?

848
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say two thousand and.

849
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: Three or four so, ok okay before you guys.

850
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, no, no, two thousand and

851
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 3: five probably whatever right around there.

852
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: That was when we signed. I was in my group,

853
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: little brother. We signed like oh four five.

854
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 3: I think I didn't fuck that up for you anyway.

855
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: It was or it was kind of already fun up

856
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: before we got to use it.

857
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: Got it, okay, dodge that bullet, okay, so.

858
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: Wouldn't be funny. This was like not even a real podcast.

859
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: There was revenge for that anyway. Go ahead, a big

860
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: Sun present you for the revenge forgetting Yeah.

861
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 3: My god, everyone's always out to get the Jews.

862
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 6: Anyway, so it's going to replace us, That's what I hear.

863
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 3: I had to go there.

864
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, quiet, you've ever been to you? So I'm

865
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: not feeling well.

866
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 6: So I'm just laying back and Jason's got just doing

867
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 6: it for me.

868
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, solidarity, So.

869
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 6: Ask you an old question. We just go back real quick.

870
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 7: Not an old question, a question from your coming up

871
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 7: because I thought I read something the poems the poem

872
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 7: the poem, sorry.

873
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: But don't forget you.

874
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 6: I won't forget it.

875
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: Write it down.

876
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: So anyway, So here it is about a year and

877
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 3: a quarter into my you know, tenure as chairman and CEO.

878
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: It is my favorite record company in the world, Atlantic Records.

879
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: And Edgar was going to be honored by the u

880
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: j A at a music industry lunch and that's a

881
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: Humanitarian of the Year award or whatever I think it was.

882
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 3: And so is the United Jewish Appeal, major Jewish charity. Wonderful,

883
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 3: wonderful charity. Anyway, So there was a kickoff breakfast and

884
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: the chairman of all the different companies came and so

885
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: I pledged a bunch of money to the uj and

886
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 3: Edgar's honor, which was appropriate thing to do, and also

887
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 3: I think it's a great charity. So a couple of

888
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 3: weeks go by and I get a call from I

889
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 3: don't know, somebody from the UJA, Steve Stu whatever his

890
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: name was, right, and I'm like, hey, what's up? And

891
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 3: he goes, you know, you gave us a bunch of money.

892
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: You know, you get a full page ad in the booklet,

893
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: you know, but it's it's due tomorrow. You know, what

894
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: do you wanted to say? So off the top of

895
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 3: my head. Now, bear in mind, our stock had just

896
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: gone public and wasn't doing so well. You probably remember

897
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 3: that one of music group Stock, the IPO had just happened.

898
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: So off the top of my head, I said, how

899
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 3: about this. Roses are reddish, violets are bluish. Our stocks

900
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 3: in the toilet. But at least we're both Jewish. So

901
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: I was Steve, he goes, are you sure about that?

902
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, you said, I have twenty four hours.

903
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 3: Let me let me run it by few people, right,

904
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 3: So I read it by a few people. Everybody's reaction

905
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 3: was the same as yours. And I even called up

906
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: Edgar's brother in law, who was working at the company

907
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: at that time, and I said to him, as it

908
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 3: was Alex, I said, Alex, what do you think?

909
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: Like?

910
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I tried to rewrite it, but

911
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 3: you can't. It's perfect, right, You couldn't change one word

912
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: in that. It's poetic perfection. So I call Alex like

913
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 3: he says, listen, Edgar has a wonderful sense of humor.

914
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: I know he's going to love this. In fact, I'm

915
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: so sure that if he doesn't, I'll take the heat.

916
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, So I had the art department

917
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 3: mock up the ad with some roses on the page

918
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 3: and stuff, you know. And what I didn't anticipate was

919
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: that people at the lunch. You know, it's not the

920
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: most exciting lunch in the world, right, I mean, you

921
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 3: got some speeches there, they're a little bit ponderous. And

922
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 3: so what you do in these in these lunches, you

923
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: go through the booklet, right, and every ads the same Edgar, congratulations,

924
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 3: you're wonderful. What are You're a fantastic honor umanitarian? This

925
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 3: that yours schmoozer, You're fantastic. And then you come to

926
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: my ad and people were like spitting out their food.

927
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 3: You try to to try and not to laugh because

928
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: everything's quiet because the guy's up there making a speech

929
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: about a serious issue, right about their helping people, and

930
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 3: you know that wherever they are, the things they're doing,

931
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: and you know, and you can't be just breaking out

932
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: and then make matters worse. The Daily News ran my

933
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: poem under the headline Edgar can't even get respect from

934
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: his own CEO. Yeah, so I guess that didn't Unfortunately,

935
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: I didn't have a poetry clause in my contract, so

936
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: I was, I was paid. You know, I got fired

937
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 3: and I got paid out and then I went to

938
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: run Virgin, and you know that was a fun time too,

939
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 3: so you know, and actually when I took over Virgin,

940
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 3: I'll show you this I took over. You can't see

941
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 3: it on the radio, but I'm gonna show it to

942
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: you anyway. When I took over Virgin, which was shortly thereafter,

943
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 3: the hottest movie in the country was the fourty year

944
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 3: old Virgin. Everybody remembers that iconic poster with his face

945
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: on it, right, So I decided, rather than run a

946
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: normal announcement Jason Flaming, chairman and CEO Virgin Records, I

947
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: decided to take a picture as him. Right, So I

948
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: bought a wig and uh, and I bought a shirt

949
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: and this is what it. I can pull this out

950
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 3: of my walle to show it to you. I ran

951
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: this ad full page in Billboard and hits.

952
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 9: He pulled, except I mean, come on, can we use

953
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 9: that photo advertised.

954
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: To use it for whatever you want? That was my thing. Yeah,

955
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 3: I think I bet the card in the process. I

956
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 3: can get you a clean one, though, But yeah, so

957
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 3: it was. It was really a fun time. Virgin was great.

958
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 3: You know, we turned that place around. That was you know,

959
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: red jumpsuit apparatus was the first thing I signed, actually

960
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 3: the day after I got there. And then Katy Perry

961
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: and you know, the thirty second of Mars was amazing.

962
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 3: You know. Jared Leto is a force of nature. That guy.

963
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 3: He's one of those rare people that everything he does,

964
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: like Jamie Fox, right, everything he does is perfect. It's

965
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: like annoying almost.

966
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 6: Right, well, not every single but yeah, yeah, I got.

967
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 3: That same watching Hamilton. You know what the worst thing

968
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: about going to see Hamilton is, I'll tell you right now.

969
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: You sit there and you just feel I feel so inadequate,

970
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 3: you know, I mean not only because of the the

971
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: unreal accomplishment of Lynn Manuel Moritta writing and producing and

972
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: everything and doing everything around that show, but also Hamilton himself.

973
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,959
Speaker 3: You're saying the way I haven't done ship in my life.

974
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 3: Oh my god. People were like, hey, you don't pretty good.

975
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, nah, I haven't done anything. It sucks.

976
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: So, yeah, what a thing is listening to j Z

977
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: likes about how well?

978
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 3: Yeahology, you know, but and yeah, and Hamilton, I mean,

979
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 3: good for you, by the way, I mean it really is.

980
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 3: And and by the way, there's the there's a rebelliousness ironically,

981
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 3: right that we had to go back to the founding

982
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: fathers to get some rebelliousness back in our culture. And

983
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: it is. But it's it's so nice to see how

984
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: that thing has become, you know what it is, because

985
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: it's so important and it's so profoundly it's just I mean,

986
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: it's perfect. It's one of the only when I went

987
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 3: to see that and people are like, well, is the

988
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 3: first time, and people are like, is it as good

989
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: as the hype? I'm like, you know, it's probably the

990
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 3: best thing since either Prints at the bottom line or

991
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 3: Zeppelin at the garden?

992
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: Did you see Hamilton pre hype or like two thousand

993
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: dollars a ticket hype?

994
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: So here's what happened is amazing. I went my son

995
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 3: is in the business, Mike Flom, and he's really excited.

996
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 3: I'm on your show, by the way. But anyway, because

997
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: he's a student of and he was working when he

998
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: was sixteen years old, he started working with Roys to

999
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: five nine, and so we were down in the studio

1000
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: with Royce in Atlanta, and I was I started talking

1001
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 3: to him about Hamilton and he goes, this is when

1002
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 3: Hamilton had first come out, and he was like, oh,

1003
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 3: that guy called me the other day, Lynn Manuel Miranda guy.

1004
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 3: I was like, what'd you say? He goes, I didn't

1005
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 3: know who he was. I didn't take his call. I

1006
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: was like, holy shit, dude, Like are you like, let's

1007
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 3: get on the phone and get us in, you know,

1008
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: like and so he called and Lynn got us tickets

1009
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: and I went with with with his manager as well

1010
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: as my son Mike, to like flying to Ce Hamilton.

1011
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 3: So it was pretty early on and then Lynn took

1012
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 3: us back stage afterwards because you know Lynn, well, you

1013
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: know better than anybody who loves he loves the great one.

1014
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: Then Royce's is one of the real greats and hip

1015
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 3: hop in my opinions. So so we got to see

1016
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 3: it as his guests, and it was just a magical,

1017
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: magical experience, you know.

1018
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: So I need to know with you being in the

1019
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: position that you're in as far as being in the

1020
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: business by that point, like thirty plus years, running three

1021
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: labels and pretty much signing like you know, people's highlights, Yeah,

1022
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: how the hell did you sort of take a detour

1023
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: into social justice? Because I because I feel like if

1024
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: you if you're going to do something, you got to

1025
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: do it well and really put your heart into it,

1026
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: not just like jack of all trades, master of none.

1027
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 3: So.

1028
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: But the thing is is that your you know, your

1029
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: your history shows that you're you know, you're deeper than

1030
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: one footage plant planet, deeply into the music business and

1031
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: and well but you know, your work with social justice

1032
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: shouldn't be scoffed at.

1033
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 1: Either because.

1034
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: Like why I'm not saying why because like people behind

1035
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: in the boardroom shouldn't care about the you know, the

1036
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: have nots, but what like what happened? Like what what

1037
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: compels you to even care?

1038
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 7: Can you just add a little layer of who your

1039
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 7: parents were to even have your up that situation because

1040
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 7: the fact that you so didn't have to go this way,

1041
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 7: it's kind of ill to me because I know we

1042
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 7: haven't discussed where you came from and which I heard

1043
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 7: your father did some amazing things in a business world,

1044
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 7: so it's really like you really did not have to

1045
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 7: do this, right.

1046
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, My dad was My dad was my hero. You know.

1047
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 3: He he was the son of immigrants, grew up as

1048
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 3: poor as you could be. He was so poor that

1049
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 3: back then in Brooklyn when he was growing up, they'd

1050
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: give your first months free if you moved, and they

1051
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: would move every month. That's how poor he was. And he,

1052
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 3: you know, he went to City College at night. And

1053
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 3: it's a great story. Actually, when he got out of

1054
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: the army, he wrote a letter to Harvard Law School

1055
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 3: and he said, I don't have any money, and I

1056
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 3: don't have a college degree, but I'm the best thing

1057
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 3: since sliced bread, and I'm a soldier and if you

1058
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 3: let me in, you won't regret it. And they gave

1059
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 3: him a full scholarship to Harvard Law School, and he

1060
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 3: became that's all. That's not anymore.

1061
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: And I also thought you were going to do some

1062
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: roses a red couple.

1063
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 3: That was all me. But he no, he you know,

1064
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 3: that was when we actually used to treat our gis

1065
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 3: as with respect, rights, as as they should be you

1066
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 3: know treated. But but don't get me started on that.

1067
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, so he became one of the greatest lawyers

1068
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: of the twentieth century. And you know, there's a chapter

1069
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 3: in Outliers about him, the three less as a Joe Flom.

1070
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 3: But moreover, he told me and my brother, do whatever

1071
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 3: you want to do. Try to be the best at it,

1072
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 3: but just make the world a better place. He says,

1073
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: if you do that, that's that's success. That's what I

1074
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: call success. And I wanted to be a success in

1075
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 3: his eyes. So so yeah, so he you know, he

1076
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 3: was very driven to make the world a better place himself.

1077
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 3: He was very strong on civil rights and.

1078
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 7: On quality acquisition to like he created a concept or

1079
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 7: something like that.

1080
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, he he, well, he basically pioneered hostile takeovers and

1081
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 3: proxy contests and all that stuff. And it was at

1082
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 3: a time when you know, Jewish lawyers couldn't get jobs

1083
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 3: at Wall Street firms. So he went to a firm

1084
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 3: that had four he was the fifth lawyer, and they

1085
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 3: had no clients, you know, but they were you know,

1086
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 3: they're trying to figure it out. And then he found

1087
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: this niche and and by the time the Wall Street

1088
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 3: firm started getting into it was too late. He was dominant,

1089
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: you know. So and then he built his law firm

1090
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 3: up into one of the most powerful in the world.

1091
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: And you know, but he did it. He always did

1092
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 3: it the right way. He never cut corners. He you know,

1093
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 3: he treated people with respect, and you know, I remember

1094
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 3: him defending you know, cases, and he did. They did

1095
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 3: a lot. They still do a ton of pro bowl work,

1096
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 3: including for the Innocence Project. By the way, Scadden is

1097
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: the firm. It was Scatten Off, Slate, mar and flom

1098
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 3: And because he was the young guy when they started.

1099
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, so he I remember him when he defended

1100
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 3: the They were trying to get rid of evolution, the

1101
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 3: teaching of evolution in in one of those states, Kansas

1102
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 3: or something, and he sent his Scatten like team of

1103
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 3: lawyers out there and he was so excited when he

1104
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 3: then he came back and they won. You know, that

1105
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 3: was his ship, you know. So anyway, so yeah, so

1106
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 3: I grew up. I grew up with him and my mom.

1107
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: You know, my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen.

1108
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 3: When she used to remind me all the time, especially

1109
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 3: when I was dropping out of college. But anyway, so yeah,

1110
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: that was my mother. Was she was. She was doing embarrassing.

1111
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 3: She was actually a decorated when she met my dad.

1112
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 3: That's how she met my dad. When he first got

1113
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 3: any money was because he was in an accident. He

1114
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 3: got hit by a taxi and was in the hospital

1115
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 3: for a long time and got some money, so he

1116
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 3: hired a decorator, and that's how he met my mom.

1117
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, wherever your mind goes there, I

1118
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 3: guess I can go. But anyway, anyway, So yeah, that's

1119
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 3: how I grew up. And then But what happened was

1120
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: that in ninety two or three I read a story

1121
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 3: in the newspaper about a kid who was serving fifteen

1122
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 3: years to life for a non violent first defense cocaine

1123
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: possession charge in New York State, and he was in

1124
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 3: maximum security prison. And the reason it was in the

1125
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 3: newspaper was because his mother had been trying to get

1126
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: clemency from Governor Cuomo. This was the first Governor Cuomo,

1127
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: Mario Cuomo, and she had had She was just a

1128
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 3: homemaker from upstate New York, from Rome, New York, and

1129
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 3: she had gotten letters from the judge. The warden, Geraldine

1130
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 3: Ferraro had written a letter on her behalf right. So

1131
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 3: that's why it was in the newspaper because Cuomo turned

1132
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 3: down Ferraro, who was asking for clemency for this kid

1133
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 3: who had been in for eight and something years already

1134
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 3: for non Like I said, let's just reflect non violent defense, right,

1135
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 3: cocaine possession?

1136
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 2: Can you for our listeners that don't know. Could you

1137
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,879
Speaker 2: explain the history of the Rockefeller law so that they

1138
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 2: know why New York's laws have been tougher the early nineties.

1139
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 3: It's odd, you know when you think about it, but

1140
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 3: New York has some of the worst laws in the country.

1141
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 3: I mean, you would think that the Rockefeller laws would

1142
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 3: be more, you know, something that you would see in

1143
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 3: Mississippi or Alabama or something like that. But the fact

1144
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 3: is the Rockefeller drug laws came up under Governor Nelson

1145
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 3: Rockefeller at the time when everybody was getting tough on

1146
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: drugs and war on drugs and all this stuff. And

1147
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 3: you know, they made it extremely.

1148
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 6: They put it in the community.

1149
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's that too. But yeah, So

1150
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 3: they made these crazy mandatory sentencing laws, and basically they

1151
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,919
Speaker 3: took all the power away from the judges and gave

1152
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 3: it to the prosecutors. So the only way out of

1153
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 3: a mandatory sentence is to rat on somebody else. And

1154
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 3: because and so the prosecutors literally have all the powers.

1155
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 3: So they could sit there and say, you, look, what

1156
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 3: do you want to do? Or you can plead guilty, right,

1157
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 3: but even if it's something you didn't do otherwise you're

1158
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 3: looking at this mandatory sentence of you know, could be

1159
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 3: decades in prison, and you know, you never want to

1160
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 3: find yourself in that position. But and judges in so

1161
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 3: many of these cases, judges as they're sentencing somebody will say,

1162
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 3: I wish I didn't have to do this, you know.

1163
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 3: And I had one guy that I was talking to

1164
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 3: who had been sentenced to I don't know, twenty or

1165
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 3: more years in prison than he was out now, and

1166
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 3: he said to me, you know, that was the thing

1167
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 3: to kill me was when the judge said I wish

1168
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 3: I could give you probation. And I'm sitting there going, wait,

1169
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 3: I can accept the sentence, but not when I mean, like,

1170
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 3: how's that working? You know what I mean, like, yeah,

1171
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: it's just it's really sickening. So anyway, in this particular case,

1172
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 3: I just read this story and I was I was flabbergasted,

1173
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 3: you know, like I was like, I didn't know about

1174
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 3: these mandatory sentencing laws, as most people don't until they

1175
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 3: get caught up in it. So I contacted a music

1176
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 3: business lawyer, a defense lawyer I knew. The only defense

1177
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 3: lay I knew was a guy Naed Bob Coleena. He

1178
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 3: represented Stone Double Pilots and skid. Oh, and they used

1179
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 3: to get in trouble a lot, as you remember. Yeah,

1180
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 3: So I called Bob. I was like, Bob, can you

1181
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 3: do anybody this? He says, nothing you can do about it.

1182
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 3: It's Rockefeller drug laws is just the way it is.

1183
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 3: I was like, well, can you talk to this woman

1184
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 3: on the phone, because I'd called missus Lennon. That was

1185
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 3: her name, was in the newspaper, Shirley Lennon. I just

1186
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 3: called her and I said, look, you probably think I'm

1187
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 3: some freak from New York, but I got to do something.

1188
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 3: I don't have a lot of money because I didn't

1189
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 3: back then, but I'll send you what I can, maybe

1190
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 3: get a new appeal or something. And she said on Jason,

1191
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 3: He goes, we've exhausted. We've spent all of our savings

1192
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 3: on lawyers, and we've exhausted all of our appeals and

1193
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 3: this was our last hope. And she says, you know,

1194
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 3: crazy thing is there was a murderer who went to

1195
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 3: the prison same prison as my son, after my son,

1196
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 3: and he's out and my son's not eligible parole for

1197
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 3: another seven years.

1198
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: And I was like, and this just for cocaine powdered possessions.

1199
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, cocaine powder possession. It was four point two ounces, right,

1200
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 3: so it wasn't a little bit. But the fact is

1201
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 3: even still you know the cliff, there's a cliff right

1202
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: over four ounces and York State possession is an A

1203
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 3: one felony. So it's like, you know, it's like murder

1204
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 3: one two to four ounces is an A two. But

1205
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 3: he had four point two ounces.

1206
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: Now, was there a difference if it's powder cocaine or

1207
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: if it's crack. I mean, back in ninety one, we're.

1208
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 3: Well, we're talking. I don't know exactly what the difference

1209
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 3: was back then. That was when crack was first coming up, right,

1210
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 3: But in the federal system there's a huge difference. And

1211
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 3: I actually worked on the legislation that rolled back the

1212
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: mandatory sentencing of laws with crack because crack used to

1213
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 3: be treated one hundred times more severely than coke. And

1214
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: there's a very simple reason why, and I don't have

1215
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 3: to tell you what it is, because it's lost smart

1216
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: people in the road. So yeah, So I worked with

1217
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: Senator Durbin and others on that bill, which was the

1218
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 3: first mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years, and

1219
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 3: the best deal we could make with the Republicans was

1220
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 3: to change it from one hundred and one to eighteen

1221
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 3: to one. And the worst part of it is that

1222
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 3: it wasn't done retroactively, which always blows my mind. Like,

1223
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 3: if we're acknowledging that a law is wrong, how is

1224
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 3: it wrong now? But it wasn't wrong before? It doesn't

1225
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 3: make any sense. And I worked very actively on the

1226
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 3: clemencies that President Obama granted to so many of those

1227
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 3: people that are serving what are illegal sentences.

1228
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 2: So you're saying that once it was turned around, they

1229
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 2: decided to not even go back to reverse all those

1230
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 2: wrongful convictions.

1231
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 3: No, it was, like I said, it wasn't retroactively. So

1232
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 3: if you were, if you were so misfortunate as to

1233
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 3: be busted before the law was changed, you're gonna you're

1234
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: still sitting there in prison to eat that. And I was,

1235
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: you know, I was really trying hard to get the

1236
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 3: Obama administration to grant clemency to all of those people

1237
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 3: unless they had committed some terrible crime while they're in prison,

1238
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 3: because again, it doesn't make any sense. How can you

1239
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 3: shade it? How can you look that guy in the

1240
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 3: eye and go dude, you should have been busted a

1241
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: few weeks later. You know, you'd be out, you'd be

1242
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 3: home with your family, you'd have four years instead of

1243
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 3: twenty five whatever it would be. It's you know, it's

1244
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 3: literally was reduced by eighty something percent the sentences, but

1245
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 3: those people are still in something. Now. President Obama did

1246
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 3: grant clemens to a lot of them, and you know,

1247
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 3: I worked with the NACDL and other organizations on those clemencies,

1248
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 3: and you know, he granted over seventeen hundred clemencies. Not

1249
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 3: all of them were crack sentences, but a lot of

1250
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 3: them were. But there's still thousands of other people who

1251
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 3: were still stuck in there, and obviously they're going to

1252
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 3: be for the foreseeable future if they're in the federal system.

1253
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 3: But back to the original story. So, so Bob as

1254
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 3: a favorite of me, calls missus Lennon and he says

1255
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 3: to me, look, I don't have any hope for this,

1256
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 3: but I'm gonna read the transcripts as a favor to

1257
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 3: you because I was a good client. I guess right,

1258
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 3: and he takes the case pro bono, and five months

1259
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 3: later we ended up in a court house, a courtroom

1260
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 3: in Malone, New York by the Canadian border, and I

1261
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 3: was sitting there. They brought Stephen in in shackles. I

1262
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 3: was like, who is he? Charles Manson? This isiculous. Legs

1263
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 3: were chained together, his hands were changed to his waist,

1264
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 3: and I sat there holding Missus Lennon's hand, and the judge,

1265
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 3: who I thought was never going to give us a

1266
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 3: break because he looked like a conservative guy, he said something,

1267
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: I haven't heard anything in this courtroom today understatute this

1268
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 3: section app But he was all this legal mumba joh.

1269
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 3: I don't know what he's talking about. And then he

1270
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 3: goes but under the power vested in me that is

1271
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,919
Speaker 3: stated in New York, the motion is granted. Whoa thing down?

1272
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 3: And I was like, what the fuck? And then Bob

1273
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 3: comes over. I was like, Bob, what happened? Because we won?

1274
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: I was like, get the fuck out of me. Way

1275
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 3: so he so. So Bob found this angle right, which

1276
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 3: is that he and I don't even know how this worked.

1277
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 3: But there were two kids in the car when Steven

1278
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 3: got arrested. He was driving and his friend was in

1279
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: the pastor's seat. They got pulled. One of them got

1280
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 3: out to take a leak apparently, and the cops saw

1281
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 3: him and came over and searched the car, found the

1282
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 3: found the coke under the seat. Whose is it? Most

1283
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 3: kids say, it's not mine. Well, everybody should know out there,

1284
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 3: if you're in a car and the drugs are in

1285
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 3: the car, it's yours, right if everybody everybody in the

1286
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 3: it could be twenty of you in the car and

1287
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 3: be a clown car. Okay, it belongs to everybody, and

1288
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: all of it belongs to.

1289
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: This possession, not ownership. That's that's what. So how much

1290
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 1: coke was it though?

1291
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 3: Like four point two ounces, so just over the cliff right,

1292
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 3: just over the limit. It's really the terrible, terrible coincidence there. So,

1293
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 3: so both kids said it wasn't mine. Both kids pleaded

1294
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 3: it and sin Steven's lawyer told him, will I will

1295
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 3: win this case where I'll hang up my shingle? Right,

1296
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 3: he should have pleaded guilty because he was guilty, but

1297
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 3: the other kid was not guilty. The other kid was

1298
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 3: a passenger, and both of them ended up getting fifteen

1299
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 3: years to life. Now after he went to prison. Yeah,

1300
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: so after he went to prison, Stephen wrote letters saying listen,

1301
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: this was me it wasn't him, but their response was

1302
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 3: too late. You know, you should have said so before.

1303
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 3: So they eventually allowed the other kid, whose name I

1304
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 3: don't remember, to plead down to an A two fel

1305
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 3: and I think he was released after eight years for

1306
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: something he didn't do, by the way, God dude. And

1307
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 3: then my guy Bob went in and said, you can't

1308
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,479
Speaker 3: treat the same crime. It's the same crime. You can't

1309
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 3: treat the two guys differently for the same crime. They

1310
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 3: both picted the same crime. Basically, you know, I'm garbing

1311
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 3: it was twenty five years ago, but that was the

1312
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 3: basic argument, and it worked, you know, and Stephen got out, you.

1313
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: Can't send us one guy to eight years and another

1314
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: guy to twenty for the same thing.

1315
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, fifteen the life but yeah, so you know. So anyway,

1316
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 3: it was a cathartic experience, as you can imagine. And

1317
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 3: I said, holy shit, that was the best feeling I know.

1318
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 3: I mean, losing my virginity was good, but even this

1319
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 3: was even better, you know what I mean, By the way,

1320
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 3: I lost our virginity at a yes cozer the matters

1321
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 3: of course, seventy six bases, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,

1322
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 3: that would have been funk here audience.

1323
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I was like, yo, do it.

1324
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 3: Was actually in the skybox in the bathroom. Yeah, it

1325
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: was a romathic but anyway, but the that's how I

1326
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 3: knew I was ended up working at Atlantic because yes, it

1327
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 3: was a land So anyway, So what I did then

1328
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 3: was I, I, you know, I experience, you know, hit

1329
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 3: me so hard that I did some research. I found

1330
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 3: out about Families Against Mandatory Minimums, which you talked about before,

1331
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 3: a fam which had just started. I called them up.

1332
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 3: I joined their board. That led me to the Drug

1333
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 3: Policy Alliance, the Legal Action Center, and then I saw

1334
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 3: some on TV about the Innocence Project and that's when

1335
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 3: I really like went into overdrive because that hit me.

1336
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 3: This was again, almost twenty five years ago. The Insty

1337
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 3: Project had just started and one of their cases was

1338
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: on TV and I was like, holy shit, that's even worse, right,

1339
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 3: this is a motherfucker who was innocent and got sentenced

1340
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 3: to death or life in prison or whatever it was.

1341
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 3: And I called them up. And you know, at the time,

1342
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 3: there's only only the two founders working there and maybe

1343
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 3: maybe a I don't know, maybe they had a receptionist

1344
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 3: or something. And so you could just call and get

1345
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 3: them on the phone. I went in and met with

1346
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 3: them and I set them all in and I was

1347
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 3: and I became the founding board member. And it's really

1348
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 3: become my life's work. I mean, I you know, I

1349
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 3: still love music and I love my job, but I

1350
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 3: love this more.

1351
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: More than Twisted sistern. This is more important than twist.

1352
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 3: Woke up.

1353
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: When we were in the elevator before I was to table,

1354
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 2: you were talking that you were in Virginia.

1355
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: You were doing some work in Virginia.

1356
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 2: You are a prison in Virginia before you came here yesterday?

1357
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 1: Yesterday? Yeah, what was that about?

1358
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 8: So?

1359
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 3: I do you know I have a podcast now called

1360
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction. Yes you do, And on it I interview

1361
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 3: I interview people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes

1362
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 3: they didn't commit.

1363
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 2: It's a very heartbreaking podcast. I mean redemption at the end,

1364
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 2: but it's hard to hear people lose those decades.

1365
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 3: Man, Just one story is crazier than the other. And

1366
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: sometimes I go inside prison and interview people who I

1367
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 3: believe to be innocent who need to get out, but

1368
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 3: also on occasion I will. And now my inbox is

1369
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 3: going to be flooded. But you know, I only have

1370
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: twenty four hours in a day like anybody else. But

1371
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 3: sometimes if I think I can make a difference, I'll

1372
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 3: take on an individual case that's not an INNOCENTCE project case,

1373
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 3: or I'll just join a team that's already working to

1374
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 3: try to get somebody exonerated and try to connect the dots,

1375
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 3: either with the legal team or with you know, clemency,

1376
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 3: which I've been successful at enough times. You know, I

1377
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 3: was saying, I've seen too many miracles to stop believing

1378
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 3: in miracles, and it is a miracle when it works.

1379
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 3: But I've got you know, I've been successful more than

1380
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 3: a few times on taking on the case that I

1381
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 3: see an injustice and actually getting that person freed.

1382
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: Wow.

1383
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 7: Can I ask you do you guys work with prisoners

1384
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 7: inside of the prison like as it's personal to me

1385
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 7: because I have a friend who's been inside the New

1386
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 7: Jersey prison system for a while now, highly educated activists

1387
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 7: in a way. And it's funny because does he actually

1388
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 7: sent me a whole essay about what's going on with

1389
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 7: the water system that actually had a whole bunch of

1390
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 7: water coming to the prison when the water was dirty

1391
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 7: and they never used it. It was bags and bags and

1392
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 7: bags and bags of water. So he wrote this essay

1393
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 7: about how they actually had a balloon party and the guards,

1394
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 7: you know, kind of just poured it out at a

1395
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 7: time when we're going through what we're going through with

1396
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 7: Puerto Rico, you know, and so you know, he kind

1397
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:23,919
Speaker 7: of felt some type of way about that and wrote

1398
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 7: the essay. But I'm curious, is there an opportunity for

1399
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 7: prisoners in that way organizational wise to speak and it's

1400
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 7: hard for them to speak out, So I don't know

1401
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 7: if you have any direction with that it turns to

1402
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 7: speak out about the issues that are going to the

1403
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 7: wrongful inside of the prison as well.

1404
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a whole other area that I'm

1405
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 3: not an expert on. There are definitely organizations that are

1406
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 3: devoted to that. I know the Correctional Association in New

1407
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 3: York is one of.

1408
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 7: Them, and I know the New Jersey prison system is

1409
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 7: a mother Anyway, the reputation weren't all really.

1410
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 6: Really is there.

1411
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 7: It's funny because I was like, in my mind, is

1412
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 7: there a top three like states where it's.

1413
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: Like were you to go?

1414
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 6: You don't want to go to jail, You just don't

1415
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 6: want to be there.

1416
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:08,439
Speaker 3: Well, I mean the laced, I mean it's it's you know, look,

1417
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:12,919
Speaker 3: we are in a situation now where we have four

1418
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 3: zero point four percent of the world's population, right, almost

1419
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 3: four and a half percent of the world's population. We

1420
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 3: have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. So

1421
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 3: we lock people up at more than five times the

1422
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 3: rate of the rest of the civilized world. Now, chew

1423
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 3: on this one. We lock up black men in America

1424
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 3: per capita at a rate that is six times higher

1425
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,680
Speaker 3: than South Africa at the height of apartheid. Okay, just

1426
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 3: fucking chew on that for a second. And then there's women, right,

1427
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 3: which is the fastest growing part of the prison population.

1428
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 3: We have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population.

1429
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 3: So what do you can what kind of conclusions can

1430
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 3: you draw?

1431
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 6: Oh my god, it's look what is it done?

1432
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, or in a lot of cases, a single parent,

1433
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 3: you know, whatever it is, it's it's still devastating to

1434
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 3: the communities, and it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work,

1435
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 3: it doesn't promote public safety, it doesn't help anything or

1436
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 3: anybody except the private prison industry, which is only six

1437
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 3: percent of the prisons but still that's too much. It

1438
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 3: should be no private prisons, and you know, prisons should

1439
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 3: be focused on rehabilitation. I mean, first of all, we

1440
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 3: had three hundred thousand people in prison the thirty years ago,

1441
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like now we're at two

1442
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 3: point two million right including a half a million who

1443
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 3: right now while we're sitting here eating donuts and playing

1444
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 3: ping pong and talking about fucking whatever. So there's a

1445
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 3: half a million people in jail in America right now

1446
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 3: just because they can't post bail. And that's another thing

1447
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 3: I've been extremely active in is bail reform, and that's

1448
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 3: starting to really feel like a movement now because you

1449
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 3: can't have a system in which we have two we

1450
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 3: have two separate systems of justice. That's what it comes

1451
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:55,600
Speaker 3: down to. What if you have money, what if you

1452
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 3: don't have money? And that is a violation of the

1453
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 3: sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, equal protection and due

1454
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 3: process and the Brown Laws.

1455
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 7: Because I feel like this opioid epidemic is not going

1456
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 7: to provide as many prisoners in prison as the crackademic epidemic.

1457
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 3: I don't know that's the reason. First of all, they're

1458
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 3: all dying you know what I mean, So you can't

1459
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 3: put them in prison after their death.

1460
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,839
Speaker 6: Somebody's selling it to women, is not just in the pharmacy.

1461
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, No, it's it's bad. I mean, sixty

1462
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 3: four thousand opioid deaths in America last year passed. It

1463
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 3: became the number one cause of death.

1464
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 7: I believe it, but I do not think that it

1465
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 7: will have the impact of crack.

1466
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 1: No, they're not gonna lock them up with no.

1467
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 2: No.

1468
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 3: Of course. Now that goes back to like, oh, do

1469
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 3: we really even have to say it?

1470
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 6: I mean, sometimes you do.

1471
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 7: Sometimes you in today in twenty seventeen, unfortunately you do.

1472
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 6: Well.

1473
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 2: I would like to ask eighteen because I feel like

1474
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 2: the Mount Saint Helen's of Innocent Project poster representative, Uh,

1475
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 2: I would like to know what your feelings are or

1476
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 2: if you even tried to come close to anything remotely

1477
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 2: touching the case of Philadelphia's own Momia abul Jamar. And

1478
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 2: do you think that there's any chance in hell that

1479
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 2: even if his case could be reopened and reintroduced with

1480
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 2: whatever new You know, because I've been hearing like since

1481
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 2: the nineties that there's evidence that they wouldn't let us

1482
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 2: enter and d but I also know, you know, I'm

1483
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 2: a Philadelphian, especially growing up doing the Frank Rizzo era.

1484
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: You're here, I'm telling you, no real talk.

1485
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 2: And so it's not just for everyone like him, but

1486
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 2: him specifically. Do you think there's any chance whatsoever? Or

1487
01:11:53,560 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 2: is it just a loss cause? And as far as people, yeah,

1488
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 2: rallying for him and.

1489
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,759
Speaker 6: The Innocent Project even touch is he something that they touch.

1490
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 3: The Innocence Project? Now, there are fifty something instance projects

1491
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 3: around the country. The main one is the Hub is

1492
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 3: in New York. That's the one where I'm on the board,

1493
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 3: and we only work on DNA cases. And I don't

1494
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 3: believe his is a DNA case. I think it's a

1495
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 3: shooting case. But so I haven't been directly involved in

1496
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 3: his case, but I will say, and I think it's

1497
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 3: it's worth mentioning, and then we'll get back to this

1498
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 3: that there was a wonderful article in Rolling Stone magazine

1499
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 3: about a guy named Tony Wright who was on my

1500
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 3: podcast as well, and I'm gonna plug it again wroeful conviction.

1501
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 3: But Tony was wrongfully convicted and served twenty five years

1502
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 3: in prison in Pennsylvania, and in the article, one of

1503
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 3: the bylines it says in nineteen ninety, whatever year it

1504
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 3: was that he was arrested, a black man had a

1505
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 3: better chance of getting justice in Philadelphia, Mississippi than he

1506
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 3: did in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that was really the case

1507
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 3: for a long time time. Now what's interesting is and

1508
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 3: where it may pertain. And Tony's out now, and he's

1509
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:08,679
Speaker 3: an amazing, amazing guy, and I encourage you to read

1510
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 3: that article. So the good news is there's a new

1511
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 3: DA in Philadelphia who is elected in November, who is

1512
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 3: a former I think he's a former civil rights lawyer.

1513
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 3: Actually he's he's a fantastic, fantastic guy, and he is

1514
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 3: going to make a systemic change in the way justice

1515
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 3: is is served in Philly. And and who knows, I

1516
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 3: don't know whether that will provide, uh, you know, an

1517
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 3: opportunity for Mama to to get out. I mean not

1518
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 3: even you know others. I have a layman's understanding of

1519
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:54,680
Speaker 3: the Mamia Jabar Bul Jamar case. But uh, you know,

1520
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 3: there's it, certainly there's light, you know, and and it's

1521
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 3: and it's important to know there's a there's a wonderful organization.

1522
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,639
Speaker 3: Shouldn't call the Justice and Safety pack who are backing

1523
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 3: progressive das in races like that one where because it

1524
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 3: makes such a huge difference. You now have a Houston and.

1525
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,559
Speaker 6: Chicago I think because people need to know.

1526
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 3: It's called the Justice and Safety Pack. Uh and uh

1527
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 3: look it up, give money, get involved. It's an incredible group.

1528
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 3: They're electing amazing people. We have a black woman uh

1529
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 3: DA in Chicago now also in Houston, and when they

1530
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:32,759
Speaker 3: come in the difference that it makes in so many

1531
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 3: cases is amazing because, like we said, the prosecutors have

1532
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 3: all the power and.

1533
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 6: The Philly one kind of fucked up. But hopefully I

1534
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 6: don't know.

1535
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 8: If you oh yeah, he's got he's got serious issues,

1536
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 8: got big problems.

1537
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean and I don't want to you know,

1538
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 3: we're not but yeah, they're.

1539
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 2: Not going to open that door democratic do. So what

1540
01:14:55,000 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 2: would you recommend to uh, especially in the the age

1541
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 2: of of of social media and how the way that

1542
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 2: news is spread now and awareness is spread and an

1543
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 2: alarming rate that it hasn't been done before, what would

1544
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 2: you recommend for those that simply don't know just small,

1545
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 2: minuscule entry ways that they can get involved politically with

1546
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,919
Speaker 2: helping out you know, the innoces projects and these various

1547
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 2: uh organizations that help people in their situation, Like I mean,

1548
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 2: just beyond retweeting something and you know.

1549
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,639
Speaker 1: Like what's what's what's step two to get to there?

1550
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,799
Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of people just even before

1551
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 2: meeting you, I would just think like, wow, okay, well

1552
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:51,240
Speaker 2: social justice. I'm I'm kind of interested. Yeah, But then

1553
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 2: it's like, oh god, I don't know if I could

1554
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:54,559
Speaker 2: do that and my day job at the same time.

1555
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 1: But are there ways to.

1556
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 2: Involve yourself that you know, it doesn't necessarily take up

1557
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 2: all the time of your day and or it is

1558
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 2: just like you just got to jump in the river

1559
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 2: and swim at piranha and snakes and no.

1560
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 3: I mean, look, you know, I'm I'm very lucky. I've

1561
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 3: been you know, fortunate to be successful in business and

1562
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 3: now I can do things at my pace. I also

1563
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:23,839
Speaker 3: have a small company now used don't run big companies,

1564
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 3: so I have more time and you know, and you know,

1565
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 3: and ultimately it's it makes me, It makes me feel good.

1566
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 3: I call it selfish altruism. You know. I mean I

1567
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 3: like helping people, and I like helping the helpless, and

1568
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 3: I can't imagine anyone more helpless than someone who's stuck

1569
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 3: in our gulag system for a crime they didn't commit.

1570
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 3: And so if I can, if I can make a

1571
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 3: difference in that way, then that you know that I

1572
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 3: don't know, like I actually you know, I had this

1573
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 3: thought yesterday. I spent the day in a maximum security

1574
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 3: prison in Virginia yesterday and I was leaving, I was like,

1575
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 3: you know what, there's nowhere else I would have rather been.

1576
01:16:57,960 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 3: You know, I could be playing golf and pebble b

1577
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:01,560
Speaker 3: each are doing this, I could be doing whatever the

1578
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 3: fuck I want. But it was it was an amazing,

1579
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 3: amazing experience. I met with two guys who I'm helping.

1580
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 3: One of them has been in for thirty one and

1581
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 3: a half years for a crime that he had nothing

1582
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 3: to do with and DNA proves it, and you know,

1583
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 3: and the other guy's been in for ten and it's

1584
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:23,400
Speaker 3: a very interesting and complicated case. But you know, I'm

1585
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to make a difference in these two people's lives.

1586
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 1: And DNA proves that he had nothing to do with it,

1587
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 1: and he still loves.

1588
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 3: It nothing to do with it. I mean, it's amazing,

1589
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 3: but but there's there's light at the end of the

1590
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 3: tunnel there too. And he's an amazing guy. He's a

1591
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,519
Speaker 3: he teaches tai chi and Meditation's written seven books. He's like,

1592
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 3: he's a brilliant guy on top of everything else. His

1593
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 3: name is Jens Surring j E N S S O

1594
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 3: E R I n G. There's a movie about him

1595
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 3: called The Promise, and there's gonna be a big twenty

1596
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:57,120
Speaker 3: twenty piece in December about his case. But so, how

1597
01:17:57,120 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 3: you can get involved is I mean the first thing

1598
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 3: to do is go to go to website. I mean,

1599
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 3: go to Innocentsproject dot org, you know, or visit your

1600
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 3: local Innocence project website. There's going to be a section

1601
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:09,799
Speaker 3: that says how to get involved. You can write letters.

1602
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 3: You know, people the politicians actually pay attention when you

1603
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 3: write letters. You know, letters are better than emails. But

1604
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 3: you can write emails. You could get on these mailing lists,

1605
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 3: you can, you can create a page, you can you

1606
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 3: can write the inmates too. I mean, that's it. That's

1607
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:25,720
Speaker 3: a great thing. Whenever I speak to these guys, it

1608
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:28,559
Speaker 3: means so much to them that anybody gives a fuck

1609
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:32,040
Speaker 3: enough to write a letter. You'd be to be surprised and.

1610
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 6: Once you start, you can email, so it's not that deep,

1611
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. People are scared of letters.

1612
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. It's a it's a lost art. My

1613
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 3: mom used to write letters like crazy. But anyway, she

1614
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 3: write a letter.

1615
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 1: The last time.

1616
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 6: But down they have the email system, so I'm winning

1617
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 6: they do.

1618
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 3: They go, oh, they can links, you can ye je

1619
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 3: different places, but uh and then you know, uh, and

1620
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 3: then the other thing is you can organize an event.

1621
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 3: I mean you can contact a local organization and you know, organize, uh,

1622
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 3: invite your friends over and do a you know, maybe

1623
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 3: even get an gennery or or just you know, get

1624
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 3: somebody to come in and speak, or you know, contact

1625
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 3: the local You know, there's organizations all over the country

1626
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 3: doing this kind of work. And now that there's Google,

1627
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:23,599
Speaker 3: it's really there's really no excuse not to find out

1628
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 3: about it and get involved.

1629
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 6: Cititism uh work too.

1630
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 7: That's I was going to say, under this umbrella of

1631
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 7: mass incarceration and all the issues that exist underneath it,

1632
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 7: because in my mind, wrongful uh, wrongful imprisonment is one

1633
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 7: of them. But what do you think are like to

1634
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 7: come some of the other issues underneath that umbrella that

1635
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 7: people may need to be concerned about outside of that.

1636
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 3: Like, well, there's so many. I mean, for me, I've

1637
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 3: been deeply involved in bail reform. I think that's so

1638
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 3: important because you know, locking people up when we don't

1639
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 3: know if they're guilty, just because they can't pay it

1640
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 3: should be an affront to everybody's humanity. And what people

1641
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 3: don't understand is that jails in this country, most of

1642
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 3: them are worse than the worst maximum security prisons. And

1643
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 3: the reason and people think jail so jails. And when

1644
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 3: you talk to the people that I talked to on

1645
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 3: my show, most of them will say that they like

1646
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 3: even one guy had on recently, Ryan Ferguson, he was

1647
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,559
Speaker 3: saying that if he had to go back to maxim

1648
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 3: security prison or jail, he said, I'd take two years

1649
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,040
Speaker 3: at maxim security prison over one year in jail.

1650
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 6: Tell them the difference, because everybody don't.

1651
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: It's difference.

1652
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:30,679
Speaker 3: So jail, you go to jail when you're awaiting trial.

1653
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 3: And for instance in New York City, Rikers Island has

1654
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 3: become infamous. Right, that's jail. It's a jail, it's not

1655
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 3: a prison. Right, So in jail, No, there's no recreation

1656
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 3: in most jails. They're basically buildings where you can be

1657
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,799
Speaker 3: in your cell twenty four hours a day with seven

1658
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,719
Speaker 3: eight other people twenty four hours a day. The lights

1659
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 3: don't go off in a lot of jails, right, And

1660
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,519
Speaker 3: it's just a pressure cooker of insanity. And you have

1661
01:20:56,600 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 3: innocent people, guilty people, violent people, we don't know who who.

1662
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 3: They're all just thrown in there together just because you

1663
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 3: can't post the fucking bail. By the way, do you

1664
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 3: know that if you get caught in New York City

1665
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 3: and you get taken to rikers and they go your

1666
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 3: bail's five hundred dollars and you're like, okay, but I

1667
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 3: got five hundred with me and they're like, well, where

1668
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,719
Speaker 3: is it that you guys took my It's in the locker.

1669
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 3: They're like, we're gonna just get it out of the locker.

1670
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 3: They're like, no, you can't get it out of locker,

1671
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 3: not until you're out, not until you're freed. So wait,

1672
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 3: so I got the money, but I can't post. No,

1673
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 3: you can't post it. Right. And by the way, one

1674
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 3: thing I'll say to anybody if you get arrested, remember

1675
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 3: phone numbers. When you think about that, you go in

1676
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 3: there and get a phone call. You don't have your

1677
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 3: fucking phone. They took it. You got to remember to

1678
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 3: call your mom or whoever it is that's gonna answer

1679
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:46,000
Speaker 3: the damn phone. Remember fucking phone numbers, because if you don't,

1680
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 3: you're gonna be stuck. And who remembers phone numbers? Think

1681
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 3: about it, right, I mean, nobody needs to remember phone

1682
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:53,760
Speaker 3: numbers anymore, So that's an important.

1683
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:55,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say some real one percent shit right now,

1684
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,759
Speaker 2: go for it. I don't know my number, the phone number.

1685
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:02,840
Speaker 6: I don't know your old number. You know, you.

1686
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 2: Don't know your own phone number. You don't know I

1687
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 2: have four phones, but my home number. I don't know

1688
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 2: that ship. Oh you know your phone?

1689
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:10,719
Speaker 1: You are right? Like if I didn't have my cell phone,

1690
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know.

1691
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 6: Nobody's paragraph you just gave us.

1692
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 2: It's almost everybody, Like nah, I got like a few

1693
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 2: you know your mom's number number I got after like

1694
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, I don't I don't know it. Yeah, yeah,

1695
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 2: any all my new contexts, but yeah, my mom, my wife,

1696
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:32,360
Speaker 2: like my my homie, like Nicola, Yeah, you know what

1697
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 2: number I got? Nick's numbers would reach numbers, Shorge numbers

1698
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 2: I want to.

1699
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:41,759
Speaker 1: I want to memorize your number. Person I'm calling anyway,

1700
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:42,519
Speaker 1: who said.

1701
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 6: You're gonna be wrongfully convicted though you're arrested.

1702
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 2: Do you think do you think there's any chance in

1703
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 2: hell of us ever repealing the deathly.

1704
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a chance of us repealing the

1705
01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 3: death penalty. And I think it's one of the reasons

1706
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 3: I actually I'm really it's very gratifying to me because

1707
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 3: I'll get sometimes a direct message or something from somebody,

1708
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 3: or message on Facebook whatever, But I don't really use

1709
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 3: Facebook that much. I'm on Instagram. Instagram is my ship.

1710
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 3: By the way, ad is Jason Plump. I gotta plug that.

1711
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:13,760
Speaker 3: I'm gonna tell you laugh. I'll make you cry. I

1712
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 3: guarantee it. That is Jason Flumm follow me. So. But yeah,

1713
01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 3: I'll get messages from people saying, you know, I used

1714
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 3: to believe in the death penalty, but now that I

1715
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 3: hear on your podcast about all these wrongful convictions, I

1716
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 3: realize it happens. You know, We've had twenty one DNA

1717
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 3: exonerations from death row, you know. And I say, to

1718
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 3: anybody who believes in the death penalty, which I don't,

1719
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 3: if you believe in the death penalty. Then you're saying

1720
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 3: that you're okay with sometimes executing anything wrong.

1721
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 1: Right, then you're.

1722
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 3: Okay with that. I just want to make sure you're

1723
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 3: okay with that. Right. We executed an innocent guy in America, oh,

1724
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 3: two months ago in Arkansas, the deel Lee innocent as

1725
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 3: the day is long. The DNA proved it, and they

1726
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 3: executed him anyway, and you know he was a client

1727
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 3: of ours.

1728
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:01,479
Speaker 2: Can I ask, uh, what is your annual Well, I

1729
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 2: know it moves in the snail space depending on what

1730
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 2: state you're dealing with it and trying to get them exonerated,

1731
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:14,799
Speaker 2: But what is your annual average of turning these cases around?

1732
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 3: Well, that's a hard question to answer because there's innocence

1733
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 3: projects all over the country, like I said, affiliated with

1734
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:26,320
Speaker 3: different law schools. There's innocance projects in the forty three states,

1735
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 3: I think, and there are there's more exonerations every year,

1736
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 3: I think. I don't know the exact number last year,

1737
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,600
Speaker 3: but I think it was it might have been a

1738
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,439
Speaker 3: couple hundred Nationally. It is not enough because if you

1739
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 3: think about it, the best estimates are that somewhere between

1740
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:48,479
Speaker 3: four and seven percent of the people in prison in America,

1741
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 3: not including jail, right, are innocent, right, So that sounds

1742
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 3: a lot like about one hundred thousand people that are

1743
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:56,640
Speaker 3: innocent in prison right now while we're sitting there. And

1744
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,240
Speaker 3: like I said, I'm not talking about jail jail, A

1745
01:24:58,360 --> 01:24:59,800
Speaker 3: huge percentage of people in jail are in the same

1746
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 3: because I haven't even tried yet, and so you know,

1747
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:05,600
Speaker 3: And that's the thing, like I said, that whole the

1748
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:09,880
Speaker 3: death penalty has to go away, like fucking civilized countries

1749
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 3: don't excellent execute people. And we're in the top five

1750
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 3: behind like China, Iran, North Korea and I don't know, Pakistandards.

1751
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:20,600
Speaker 3: It's not a good group to be in, you know

1752
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. Of course, now we're the only country

1753
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 3: in the world that's not in the Paris Agreement, right,

1754
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 3: Syria actually signed on yesterday. Syria.

1755
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:30,400
Speaker 7: I was about to ask you, what's the what do

1756
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 7: you think of the top issues with us and having

1757
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 7: Trump in here in reference to the work that you

1758
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 7: do things.

1759
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 3: All of them.

1760
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was what I'm saying.

1761
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, all, yeah, it's all.

1762
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does the Innocence Project raise money? Like I'm

1763
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 2: figuring that you guys would in order to keep up

1764
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:54,800
Speaker 2: with the thousands and thousands and thousands of cases that

1765
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:58,439
Speaker 2: you have to deal with. You know that there's less

1766
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:00,839
Speaker 2: people on the Innocence Project side.

1767
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 1: Of the fence to help.

1768
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 2: The amount of prisoners that you know are coming to

1769
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 2: you guys for these for your help.

1770
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean we raised money from individuals and foundations.

1771
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:16,719
Speaker 3: That's what we do, and you know, every little bit helps.

1772
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 3: The more money that comes in. It is a not

1773
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 3: for profit, donations are tax deductible, and you know, the

1774
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 3: more money that comes in, the more more difference we

1775
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:29,559
Speaker 3: can make, not only in individual cases, but also in

1776
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 3: creating systemic changes and how everything from lineups are conducted

1777
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:41,400
Speaker 3: to forensics to you know, to there's so many changes

1778
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 3: that have to be made in the way the way

1779
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:47,480
Speaker 3: interrogations are done, right, I mean everything videotaping, mandatory videotaping

1780
01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 3: of introgations in New York State just passed that finally, Right,

1781
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:53,679
Speaker 3: we didn't have that New York City. Yeah, just passed it. Yeah,

1782
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 3: shout out to del Ricomo for that one. But yeah,

1783
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:59,759
Speaker 3: I mean that's that's it's so crazy, right, it's.

1784
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 6: Just him on a first forty eight yet, Yeah.

1785
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:04,679
Speaker 3: It's it's I mean, look, we were also the second

1786
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 3: to last state to UH to stop treating juveniles putting

1787
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:10,679
Speaker 3: juveniles in adult prisons, you know, like it was only

1788
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:15,639
Speaker 3: us and I think South Carolina were the last two. Yeah,

1789
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 3: gouvenills in adult prisons. And yeah, and back to the

1790
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:21,160
Speaker 3: jail thing, the jail, the jail thing. They're so dangerous.

1791
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 3: I mean, Clif Brouder, anybody, you know what I mean. Yeah,

1792
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 3: rest in peace, I mean. And then there are others,

1793
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 3: I mean, and my my thing is to try to

1794
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 3: prevent that from happening. I started the thing in the

1795
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,240
Speaker 3: Bronx called the Freedom Fund, which was the first bail

1796
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 3: fund in the country, which basically how that works is

1797
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,599
Speaker 3: I raised the money. My dad actually put up half

1798
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 3: the money to start it when I when I went

1799
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:42,840
Speaker 3: to him with the idea, and I put the money

1800
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:44,599
Speaker 3: in the hands of the lawyers at the Bronx Defenders,

1801
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 3: which is a great organization, and they post bail for

1802
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:51,439
Speaker 3: their own clients in misdemeanor cases. So it was it

1803
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:53,559
Speaker 3: was an innovative idea, it seemed common sensical.

1804
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:54,719
Speaker 6: Made it to the bill later.

1805
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 3: No, No, the good money comes back when you when

1806
01:27:57,160 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 3: they show up for court. And by the way, ninety

1807
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:01,639
Speaker 3: seven percent of our clients show up for every court date.

1808
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:03,680
Speaker 3: We have a higher percentage of people showing up than

1809
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:06,200
Speaker 3: people who actually have to pay money if they don't. Right,

1810
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 3: So that whole argument's out the window that we need

1811
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:10,680
Speaker 3: money bail to make sure people show up. People, you

1812
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 3: know what they do. They show up. We send them

1813
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 3: a text message and say don't forget you know what

1814
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:15,599
Speaker 3: I mean. And that's how they show up. And they

1815
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 3: show up, and then usually their cases are dismissed because

1816
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 3: if they have you in jail, you got to plead

1817
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 3: guilty or you ain't going home. So but if you're out,

1818
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 3: they just they're a good process for jumping jail.

1819
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 6: You have to plead guilty or else you ain't going home.

1820
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:32,720
Speaker 3: Think about that, right, you're gonna you're gonna be in

1821
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 3: jail for you want to stay in rikers for a

1822
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:37,439
Speaker 3: week two weeks waiting for your court date. And and

1823
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 3: by the way, sometimes you'll go to court and they'll

1824
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:41,720
Speaker 3: the prosecutor will say, well, you know, we're really not

1825
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:44,000
Speaker 3: ready for this case, your honor, And the judge says, okay,

1826
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 3: come back in three weeks. What else can he say?

1827
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 2: So if you're saying that I'm not guilty, then I'm

1828
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:52,520
Speaker 2: doing that time in Rikers until.

1829
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 3: And a lot of people will end up serving more

1830
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 3: time in Rikers than they would have served if they

1831
01:28:57,400 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 3: were guilty.

1832
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:01,000
Speaker 1: Wait, okay, I got wait ask a fourth time.

1833
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:05,360
Speaker 2: So you're saying, okay, let's say I did jump a

1834
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 2: turnstot and I get arrested and taken too. Well, you

1835
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:11,880
Speaker 2: go downtown first before you go to Rikers. I assume

1836
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:13,919
Speaker 2: it depends. Where is there such a thing as downtown?

1837
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: Is that just television New York? You're going downtown.

1838
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:18,799
Speaker 3: There's the tombs, but almost everybody goes to Rikers.

1839
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,000
Speaker 6: Okay the way it don't sound fun?

1840
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I learned.

1841
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 2: Also, don't do anything on Thursday or Friday or.

1842
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 6: Yes, you'll be a weekdays.

1843
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:32,559
Speaker 1: So you're saying that once they're in process.

1844
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 2: If I say that I'm innocent and you got the

1845
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 2: wrong person, I'm staying in Rikers.

1846
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:41,280
Speaker 3: That's what happened to Khalif Browner. He was there for

1847
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 3: three years awaiting trial. Three years I mean, and then

1848
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 3: they dropped the charges. You know that, right, They dropped

1849
01:29:49,080 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 3: the chargers after three years.

1850
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 6: I don't even like to think about him because.

1851
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 3: No, yeah, it's I mean, and he ain't the last one.

1852
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 3: There was this case with Pedro Hernandez. I was in

1853
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 3: court when his when the charge some of the charges

1854
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:06,400
Speaker 3: were dropped. He was he was in for a year

1855
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 3: awaiting trial, and he was a valedictorian in his class

1856
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:12,920
Speaker 3: in Rikers Island and was offered a college scholarship, and

1857
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 3: they were trying to keep him in there, you know,

1858
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:18,400
Speaker 3: so that he would miss his college. But he just

1859
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 3: got out. But yeah, his case is horrible too.

1860
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:26,400
Speaker 2: So for those that are wrongfully convicted, do you guys

1861
01:30:26,439 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 2: also work on making sure that the state makes up

1862
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 2: for any wrong convictions or wrongdoing as far as like.

1863
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:38,200
Speaker 1: Emotions and those.

1864
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: Things, and what's the like, what's the likelihood of because

1865
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:43,760
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the Central.

1866
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:48,040
Speaker 6: Park fact, you know, what they say is not even

1867
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:48,839
Speaker 6: but even.

1868
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 1: Then it's like.

1869
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 2: So mentally fucked up from there from there. So I'm asking,

1870
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:59,360
Speaker 2: I'm asking about, like, you know, mental health and all

1871
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:01,600
Speaker 2: those things. Is that even thought about now or is

1872
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 2: that just like a you know, the lost cost to

1873
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:09,360
Speaker 2: even think that.

1874
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:14,200
Speaker 3: Your mental health of exonerreies. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's

1875
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:17,680
Speaker 3: something that I've been very focused on. I you know,

1876
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 3: I started a thing called the Life After Exoneration Program

1877
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 3: at the Innocence Project and also the thing that's become

1878
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 3: the Innocence Network Conference, which is as a group every

1879
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 3: year we bring together a lot of exgneries. Last year

1880
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:33,040
Speaker 3: I had two hundred in the same room who collectively

1881
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 3: had served over thirty six hundred years in prison. And

1882
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 3: it's all for healing and you know, adapting and reintegrating

1883
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:45,200
Speaker 3: into society, because I feel the same way you do, Like,

1884
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:47,360
Speaker 3: what do we do for these people when they we've

1885
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 3: you know, we've wronged them so much, and you know,

1886
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,320
Speaker 3: when they get out, they get a bus ticket basically

1887
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:54,840
Speaker 3: and forty dollars in a lot of cases, and you know,

1888
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 3: sometimes not even an apology. And then if they sue.

1889
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 3: You know, thirty states have compensation statutes and twenty don't,

1890
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:06,200
Speaker 3: and you know it is New York one of them.

1891
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:10,760
Speaker 3: New York does. And then you know, even the even

1892
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:13,320
Speaker 3: the states that do have very very different, you know,

1893
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:18,000
Speaker 3: levels that you can you can get. You know, some

1894
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:20,760
Speaker 3: of them are so shockingly low that you would be embarrassed.

1895
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 3: But that's something we've been working on changing and getting.

1896
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 3: You know, we actually managed to get a very good

1897
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:30,919
Speaker 3: bill passed in Texas, of all places, so in Texas

1898
01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 3: you get now I can't remember. I think it's fifty

1899
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:35,680
Speaker 3: or eighty thousand a year for every year you were

1900
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 3: locked up, plus an annuity of an equal amount. So

1901
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:40,479
Speaker 3: it's not a fortune, but at least it's something to

1902
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 3: start your life again, because a lot of these people

1903
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:45,799
Speaker 3: come out after ten, fifteen, twenty thirty years in prison

1904
01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 3: and good luck getting a job. Right, what are you

1905
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,040
Speaker 3: going to do? You don't know how to do phone?

1906
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never seen a phone.

1907
01:32:52,920 --> 01:32:56,720
Speaker 3: I mean, like, and so you know, we are, you know,

1908
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 3: we are working on that. Amazing, you know, the spirit

1909
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:06,599
Speaker 3: of these people is so strong. I guess the ones

1910
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:10,120
Speaker 3: that collapse never get out, you know. And and I'll

1911
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 3: talk to the ex houneries and I'm like, I'm always

1912
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:15,600
Speaker 3: amazed at how they don't show any signs of bitterness,

1913
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:20,200
Speaker 3: you know. And it's but it's it's it's true, and

1914
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:23,679
Speaker 3: it's incredible. You know, not every single one, but almost

1915
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 3: every single one has this like state of grace that

1916
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:31,080
Speaker 3: they're in where they've just let go and they're you know,

1917
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:32,600
Speaker 3: they'll say things like I don't want to live in

1918
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 3: the past. I can't change the past. I want to

1919
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 3: move forward. I want to live every day in my

1920
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:37,600
Speaker 3: life is you know, like I can't you know what

1921
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 3: am I gonna do? Walk around being bitter and angry.

1922
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:41,559
Speaker 3: It's not going to help me, you know. It's like

1923
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 3: that's where they say bitterness is a pill you take

1924
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,080
Speaker 3: hoping to make somebody else sick. Right, But the fact is,

1925
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 3: there are a lot of things that we're putting in

1926
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:54,760
Speaker 3: place all over you know, I mean that that are

1927
01:33:54,800 --> 01:33:58,680
Speaker 3: designed to help hoies. You know what's crazy, love is

1928
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 3: that if you are guilty of a crime and you

1929
01:34:02,880 --> 01:34:05,600
Speaker 3: serve your time and you proll out, you get a

1930
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 3: prole officer, and you get certain services that are designed

1931
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:10,960
Speaker 3: to help you get back into society. They don't always work.

1932
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 3: You don't get it if if you're innothing to getting nothing,

1933
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 3: what mn and even if you sue, and even if

1934
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:19,800
Speaker 3: you're able to sue, and if look how long it

1935
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:22,280
Speaker 3: took the Central Part five to get paid, right, I

1936
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:24,680
Speaker 3: mean Central Park five. You were a kid growing up

1937
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 3: when that shit happened. Right now, they just got paid

1938
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:28,639
Speaker 3: what was it like a year ago? And it's worth

1939
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,080
Speaker 3: mentioning that Trump took out ads at the time of

1940
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:33,480
Speaker 3: their arrest, calling for all of them to be executed.

1941
01:34:33,479 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 3: He spent a bunch of money on all the newspapers

1942
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 3: in New York say these guys should be executed, and

1943
01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:39,599
Speaker 3: of course he still says they're guilty because he knows

1944
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 3: these things. And the first, you know, the first episode

1945
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 3: of my podcast, I actually interviewed Raymond Santana. It's a

1946
01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:50,479
Speaker 3: really powerful episode. And I've done, I've done, you know,

1947
01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:53,960
Speaker 3: I do a lot of speaking, and I did a

1948
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 3: speech with him at the Nantucket Project, which you can

1949
01:34:57,360 --> 01:34:59,400
Speaker 3: actually look up online if you just google my name

1950
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:05,479
Speaker 3: and Nantucket Project where I interviewed him on stage, and

1951
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:08,120
Speaker 3: he's extraordinary, I mean, in that story is extraordinary.

1952
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:12,160
Speaker 2: I have a one more question, and I know it's

1953
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 2: weird to ask, but because a lot of these a

1954
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 2: lot of the people that you're releasing, some of them

1955
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 2: have certain decades in you know, three, two, three, four decades,

1956
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:27,719
Speaker 2: I assume.

1957
01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, guy got out in New Orleans this week after

1958
01:35:31,280 --> 01:35:32,599
Speaker 3: forty six years.

1959
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:34,959
Speaker 1: I was going this week, I was going to say.

1960
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:37,240
Speaker 3: Wilbert Jones, how old is he now? I don't even

1961
01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:40,679
Speaker 3: know how old he is? Forty five or six forty five?

1962
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 3: He went in in seventy one my.

1963
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,720
Speaker 2: Life, Well, yeah, that's forty six years.

1964
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, you're born seventy one, right.

1965
01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:49,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1966
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:53,160
Speaker 2: So I was going to say that I have a

1967
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:55,800
Speaker 2: couple of friends in Philadelphia that were caught up in

1968
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:58,640
Speaker 2: the system.

1969
01:35:57,800 --> 01:35:58,600
Speaker 4: And.

1970
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 2: Coming out of jail was so frightening for them that

1971
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 2: it was almost like the feeling of you going to jail,

1972
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:13,599
Speaker 2: and to the point that two of those three basically

1973
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 2: told their families like, look, I'm gonna I'm not going

1974
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:22,120
Speaker 2: to go see my uh my, my Bill, my parole officer,

1975
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:25,720
Speaker 2: because I don't know anything in this world, like I

1976
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:26,719
Speaker 2: gotta go back.

1977
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of some weird stock.

1978
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like, what's what are the cases of those

1979
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:35,719
Speaker 2: that you get out and they come out and they're

1980
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:40,320
Speaker 2: just like, I have nothing to live for, Like I

1981
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:44,040
Speaker 2: my whole world is inside of that prison. And one,

1982
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:46,640
Speaker 2: you know, willingly want to go back because I know

1983
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 2: that that happens a lot.

1984
01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 3: You know, I've heard that happens. It happened in Shawshak Redemption, right,

1985
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:58,920
Speaker 3: but movies. But I haven't seen not even one of these.

1986
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 7: I don't want to do that, probably guilty.

1987
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:09,480
Speaker 3: That might be the distinction. It's a psychological you know phenomenon.

1988
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's it's getting out is another punishment, you know,

1989
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:17,280
Speaker 3: when they come out and we make it so difficult

1990
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 3: for them to get compensated. It takes years, even in

1991
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:23,639
Speaker 3: the cases where it's successful. And you know, I've taken

1992
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:27,240
Speaker 3: it as my you know, one of my missions to

1993
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 3: try to help bridge that gap when I can, because

1994
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 3: you know, these people deserve I mean, they got everything

1995
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:37,599
Speaker 3: coming to them and they get nothing, you know, like

1996
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 3: we owe them as a society and everything. It's it's like,

1997
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:46,040
Speaker 3: there should be free education for these people. There should

1998
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 3: be housing, there should be you know, it's nuts, Like

1999
01:37:50,920 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 3: it's just I don't know.

2000
01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:55,360
Speaker 7: Have you been able to garner any of your roster,

2001
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:57,280
Speaker 7: any of your kind of celebrity friends to not just

2002
01:37:57,320 --> 01:37:59,160
Speaker 7: be a voice, we kind of get involved as well.

2003
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 3: None of the none of the ones that I work

2004
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 3: directly with, have gotten involved in any deep level.

2005
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 2: I mean, like do they know of your work, of

2006
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,560
Speaker 2: your kind of Clark Kent Superman life for it?

2007
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:16,000
Speaker 3: Do I look like someone who knows how to shut up?

2008
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:21,040
Speaker 3: Because he might have be mixed up with some other guy?

2009
01:38:21,280 --> 01:38:23,840
Speaker 3: But no, I yeah, I mean I'm proselytizing this stuff

2010
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:25,479
Speaker 3: all the time. Like I said, I promoted on my

2011
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:27,920
Speaker 3: Instagram and anybody who follows me knows that. And then

2012
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:29,880
Speaker 3: I you know, and I also talk about it to

2013
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:33,879
Speaker 3: anybody that will listen, and you know, and it is amazing.

2014
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:37,960
Speaker 3: I mean the you know, social media has been really

2015
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 3: helpful for me in getting that word out, but it

2016
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 3: hasn't yet. I mean, look a lot of people some

2017
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:45,160
Speaker 3: people are just not you know, the people. I think

2018
01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 3: in their thirties is usually when people start to become

2019
01:38:47,479 --> 01:38:50,519
Speaker 3: interested in really making a different something else. I mean,

2020
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, you know, look Scooter Braun. Interesting, right,

2021
01:38:55,520 --> 01:38:57,680
Speaker 3: here's a guy who's on top of the world and

2022
01:38:57,720 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 3: he's now look what he's doing right with these kind

2023
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 3: inserts Manchester thing and the hurricane relief. I mean, he's

2024
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,320
Speaker 3: become that guy in his mid thirties.

2025
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 1: Where he's like, I'm Bob Gildo.

2026
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:11,680
Speaker 3: It hit it hits you at some point that you

2027
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 3: have a higher purpose. And I don't mean that in

2028
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 3: a religious way. It's just like you have, you know,

2029
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 3: you have a calling. I mean, we're here, We're here

2030
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:20,040
Speaker 3: to be our brother's keepers. And that's the way it is,

2031
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:22,880
Speaker 3: you know, like and and it doesn't make any sense

2032
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:25,080
Speaker 3: to fight that feeling, like, just go with it. I mean, look,

2033
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 3: some people have working three jobs just to put food

2034
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 3: on the table. They don't have time. But you know,

2035
01:39:29,240 --> 01:39:30,680
Speaker 3: it's that old thing. If you're up to your ass

2036
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:32,719
Speaker 3: at alligators, it's hard to remember to dream the swamp.

2037
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:36,719
Speaker 3: But you know, if you got, if you got yours,

2038
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,240
Speaker 3: then get off your ass and go find your shit

2039
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 3: like it's it's give. It makes me so fucking happy

2040
01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:45,759
Speaker 3: to be able to make this difference. It's it's nuts.

2041
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean, like I feel, I feel lucky, you know,

2042
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 3: to be in a position to be able to do

2043
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:54,000
Speaker 3: this and to have found something that really touches me

2044
01:39:54,120 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 3: and makes me want to do more every day.

2045
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, man, we thank you for fighting a good fight,

2046
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:04,120
Speaker 2: and hopefully that will inspire listeners to uh you know,

2047
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 2: get involved as well.

2048
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 6: And we are lucky to have you.

2049
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 1: Have you, thank the show.

2050
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 3: Thanks for that. Thank you. Since project dot org everybody.

2051
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:16,920
Speaker 2: Yes, it's Jason Flummer Instagram. I just followed him.

2052
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:18,000
Speaker 1: It's Jason.

2053
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:23,160
Speaker 3: I'm a follow backer. Let me now watching a thousand

2054
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:25,720
Speaker 3: people to follow me back? What is this guy? Full ship?

2055
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:26,200
Speaker 3: We have?

2056
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:28,559
Speaker 1: Let's talk ask right now?

2057
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:35,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty questions, are you serious second coming to Okay?

2058
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:37,400
Speaker 1: No, they weren't a second company to you.

2059
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:38,240
Speaker 6: I'm just saying no.

2060
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:41,080
Speaker 1: Matchbox twenty was like twenty years before, ten years before.

2061
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 2: Listen, just let him have this, give me, give me

2062
01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:46,880
Speaker 2: a three match box. Any questions then?

2063
01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 3: Words?

2064
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:53,200
Speaker 2: Now, let me see Okay, massbuster? Okay, Rob Thomas, I don't.

2065
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:53,719
Speaker 1: Know what do I stought?

2066
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:57,600
Speaker 2: Okay, just yourself? Just like yourself? Is someone like you?

2067
01:40:57,680 --> 01:40:59,400
Speaker 2: That was the album with three am on it?

2068
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:04,640
Speaker 1: Right? Okay?

2069
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 3: So much because this is like me trying to freestyle.

2070
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 2: Man, I don't know what, Rob Thomas, So it was

2071
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:12,680
Speaker 2: that one he had three amals on that record, and

2072
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:15,720
Speaker 2: then what was the big big record, Push Push Push?

2073
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:19,800
Speaker 1: How do you know that? It was everywhere everywhere? How

2074
01:41:19,840 --> 01:41:20,720
Speaker 1: do you not know it? Yeah?

2075
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:25,679
Speaker 2: That record was everywhere? Okay, So then the thing happened.

2076
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:28,160
Speaker 2: How did did that affect the group at all? Like

2077
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:31,280
Speaker 2: once he had that huge record, once smooth came out smoothly,

2078
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,360
Speaker 2: that messed up group dynamics with Rob and the rest

2079
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 2: of the guys.

2080
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:37,600
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good question. I never really thought of

2081
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:39,599
Speaker 3: it that way, And I don't know. I think it's hard,

2082
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 3: you know, it's hard to figure out the cause of

2083
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:44,800
Speaker 3: the effect, but you know, it seems like something like

2084
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 3: that will affect the dynamic one way or another. Right.

2085
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:48,800
Speaker 1: It was always kind of just robbing the other guys,

2086
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 1: wasn't it. Yeah I didn't know.

2087
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Rob's that guy I mean.

2088
01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:57,840
Speaker 2: And then Sugar Ray, whose idea was it to put

2089
01:41:57,880 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 2: super Cat on something?

2090
01:41:59,360 --> 01:41:59,880
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2091
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:03,720
Speaker 3: I think that was the producer David Khan who had

2092
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:04,200
Speaker 3: that idea.

2093
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:05,200
Speaker 1: David con produced him.

2094
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:08,600
Speaker 3: David Khan, Damn.

2095
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 1: That's he produced.

2096
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:12,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. It was strange, you wouldn't think, right, but yeah,

2097
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 3: he produced fly.

2098
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:14,720
Speaker 1: I did not know that.

2099
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:15,960
Speaker 3: Wow, that was fun.

2100
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:19,240
Speaker 1: That's the joint. Okay, that's cool.

2101
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:23,640
Speaker 2: Any cold Play questions, man, because okay cold Play, I

2102
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 2: don't Actually.

2103
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:25,800
Speaker 3: I only work with them for a minute, so I

2104
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 3: don't know, like.

2105
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 1: I literally okay, well, Craig on the show.

2106
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:33,200
Speaker 3: I didn't even work with them. I met them. They

2107
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 3: were just happened to be signed to the label I

2108
01:42:35,000 --> 01:42:36,800
Speaker 3: was running. But you know, I was only I was

2109
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:39,920
Speaker 3: only there for a whatever, a couple of years. And yeah,

2110
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 3: they were they were doing they were the stratus for already.

2111
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:43,920
Speaker 3: I get zero credit for that.

2112
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 2: Okay, we're all when I said and done for your

2113
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 2: your music, your music career, what's the one achievement where

2114
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:52,559
Speaker 2: you're just like.

2115
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 3: Me?

2116
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 2: I did that like to yourself, you know, your humble

2117
01:42:57,920 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 2: brag moment to yourself inside.

2118
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:02,760
Speaker 5: That you're gonna guess on Pandora In the music business. Yeah,

2119
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:03,799
Speaker 5: in the music business.

2120
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:06,599
Speaker 3: I mean it's funny because the one thing we didn't

2121
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:09,400
Speaker 3: even talk about is one of my proudest accomplishments, which

2122
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 3: is Translateburian Orchestra. You know, because of it, Yeah, I

2123
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:18,240
Speaker 3: mean Translbian Orchestra. Was was it crazy? Crazy ass story?

2124
01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:20,519
Speaker 3: You know, I'd signed this metal group called Sabotage, not

2125
01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:21,840
Speaker 3: because I want to do it, because a guy I

2126
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:23,920
Speaker 3: was hanging out with back in those days wouldn't leave

2127
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,080
Speaker 3: me alone. And so, you know, I don't even really

2128
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:30,440
Speaker 3: like metal music, but I like hard rock. But anyway,

2129
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 3: they'd she had fallen out of favor, and you know,

2130
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:36,880
Speaker 3: we're really I was. I actually dropped them in ninety

2131
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:41,519
Speaker 3: six because they weren't doing anything. And then one day

2132
01:43:41,560 --> 01:43:44,400
Speaker 3: their lawyer, Nick Ferrara, calls me on the phone and says,

2133
01:43:44,760 --> 01:43:46,559
Speaker 3: did you know the w PLJ is going to add

2134
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:49,120
Speaker 3: Sabotage tomorrow? And I said, do you know you must

2135
01:43:49,160 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 3: be the single dumbest lawyer in America? You think w

2136
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 3: And we can't even get that shit played on metal

2137
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:56,600
Speaker 3: stations anymore. College stations won't even playing what are you

2138
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 3: talking about? PLJ was the biggest station the country back then,

2139
01:43:59,400 --> 01:44:03,640
Speaker 3: you remember. And so next day Scott Shannon, this was

2140
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:07,799
Speaker 3: December eleventh of ninety six, Scott Shannon plays the last

2141
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:10,960
Speaker 3: song on the Sabotage album, and not only does he

2142
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:16,360
Speaker 3: play it, he reads the liner notes and he goes

2143
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 3: into a whole thing about how there is the most

2144
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:21,760
Speaker 3: powerful piece of music. And every store in New York

2145
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 3: blows out right like people are calling the stores are

2146
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:25,600
Speaker 3: calling us, going where's this record? We need more of

2147
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:28,640
Speaker 3: these records. We're like, we don't even know, Like we

2148
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:30,759
Speaker 3: don't have any. We dropped the band. And then Scott

2149
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:32,759
Speaker 3: starts calling other radio stations saying, this is the biggest

2150
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:35,080
Speaker 3: thing I've ever seen at it right, And all these

2151
01:44:35,080 --> 01:44:37,120
Speaker 3: other stations called Colonis saying, so it turns out they

2152
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:39,639
Speaker 3: had put a Christmas song on a metal album, right,

2153
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:40,320
Speaker 3: who does that?

2154
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:41,080
Speaker 1: It was?

2155
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 3: The last song was Carol of the Bells, done with

2156
01:44:45,080 --> 01:44:46,960
Speaker 3: metal guitars and an orchestra.

2157
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,600
Speaker 1: So like members were they.

2158
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:51,080
Speaker 3: There was four members in Sabotage, but the smiff's guy

2159
01:44:51,080 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 3: was really the producer, who was a guy nam Paul

2160
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:55,960
Speaker 3: O'Neil who sadly died this year, and so he he

2161
01:44:56,080 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 3: had made this record d D then the with the

2162
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:03,040
Speaker 3: good metal guitars, and no no, no, no, no no, it

2163
01:45:03,080 --> 01:45:06,040
Speaker 3: was the strings right, and then then the guitar. No no,

2164
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:09,639
Speaker 3: no no no, and for whatever reason, it was pure magic. Right.

2165
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:12,639
Speaker 3: So we start shipping and pressing these records and setting

2166
01:45:12,640 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 3: them out as fast as we can, making copies for

2167
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 3: the radio stations, and because we still own the mastery

2168
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:19,240
Speaker 3: though we had dropped the band. And then in January

2169
01:45:19,320 --> 01:45:21,960
Speaker 3: I called Paul on you and I go, Paul, people

2170
01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 3: love this record, but they hate Sabotage. So I said,

2171
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:28,920
Speaker 3: here's what I want you to do. Take that song,

2172
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:33,639
Speaker 3: don't mix it, don't fix it, don't edit it, don't

2173
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 3: do a fucking thing to it, because it's perfect, and

2174
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:39,280
Speaker 3: make a whole album of songs just like that. Give

2175
01:45:39,280 --> 01:45:41,519
Speaker 3: it a nice Christmas Eve name, and I'll sell millions

2176
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:43,519
Speaker 3: for you. So he calls me up. A couple of

2177
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:45,000
Speaker 3: weeks later, he goes, what do you think about Trans

2178
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:47,120
Speaker 3: Siberian Orchestra on what the fuck do I know? I'm Jewish?

2179
01:45:47,120 --> 01:45:51,360
Speaker 3: I don't know about if you making help of calling

2180
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 3: so he so we called the Trans Siberian Orchestra and

2181
01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:57,720
Speaker 3: it became the biggest Christmas artist in the history of

2182
01:45:57,760 --> 01:45:58,120
Speaker 3: the world.

2183
01:45:58,400 --> 01:45:59,919
Speaker 6: Publishing must be crazy.

2184
01:46:00,240 --> 01:46:04,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately that's not me, but whatever, But so, yeah,

2185
01:46:04,479 --> 01:46:06,519
Speaker 3: so that was really fun because it was so difficult

2186
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:08,920
Speaker 3: to break that act. That one in kid Rock really

2187
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 3: were the hardest, and in spite of the current things

2188
01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 3: that are going on, it was so much fun breaking

2189
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:15,519
Speaker 3: Kid Rock. Looking back, it was just nobody was on

2190
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,040
Speaker 3: that guy. I mean, it was like everybody was against him.

2191
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 2: He told me the story, did you you said you

2192
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 2: want to sign too?

2193
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:23,000
Speaker 3: He's the one that broke on the golf course.

2194
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:25,360
Speaker 2: You didn't get to sign to. Were you at Virgin

2195
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 2: with the Perfect Circle his side group?

2196
01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:30,800
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. I don't think they made any records

2197
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:33,200
Speaker 3: while I was there, so they may have been signed there,

2198
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 3: but I never got to deal with that. I did

2199
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:36,800
Speaker 3: try to sign him as a solo artist as well,

2200
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:39,280
Speaker 3: and that didn't work out either. So yeah, that was

2201
01:46:39,280 --> 01:46:41,680
Speaker 3: Perfect Circle, right, I tried to sign perfect Circle, so

2202
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:45,200
Speaker 3: he he he left me at the altar twice. You know,

2203
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:46,519
Speaker 3: I'm still a fan.

2204
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,400
Speaker 1: He's really I love his voice.

2205
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:51,479
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think those those were the most fun.

2206
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:53,360
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm super proud of Tory Amos because I

2207
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:56,120
Speaker 3: think she's had a real impact on music and culture.

2208
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot we didn't mention.

2209
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 2: We didn't get to talk about Lord or Jesse, Jay

2210
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:04,679
Speaker 2: or I didn't even ask for di'angelo nightmare story.

2211
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:10,200
Speaker 1: Oh we already have plenty of those, right.

2212
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:13,280
Speaker 2: I think we got off our questions out. We thank

2213
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:14,679
Speaker 2: you very much for coming on the show.

2214
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,879
Speaker 3: Well, we finished credit and we started considering. I garbled

2215
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:21,040
Speaker 3: my wrap.

2216
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:26,320
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, on behalf of Boss Bill Unpaid, Bill Sugar,

2217
01:47:26,360 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 2: Steve Fan, Tickelo and it's like Elite, It's Lee or Cohen. No,

2218
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 2: it's like this is Quest Love signing off. Thank you

2219
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,960
Speaker 2: very much Jason for joining us, and so let's key too.

2220
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:43,160
Speaker 1: Right, make sure you make sure he signs rease form too.

2221
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:45,000
Speaker 2: We will see you next week on the next go

2222
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:47,800
Speaker 2: round of Quest Love Supreme, only on Pandora.

2223
01:47:56,400 --> 01:47:56,679
Speaker 1: West.

2224
01:47:56,680 --> 01:48:00,000
Speaker 2: Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. This class

2225
01:48:00,040 --> 01:48:01,599
Speaker 2: said of U Soap was produced by the.

2226
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:02,920
Speaker 1: Team at Maandora.

2227
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:10,880
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

2228
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:12,679
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.