WEBVTT - At Home with Dr. Phil 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.400 Hi Katie, Hi Brian, and hello listeners. We hope you 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.560 enjoyed our first dispatch from London last week with Graham Norton, 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.240 who I think is adorable. I was just in parrassed, 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.320 as they say, not in London exactly. We'll be bringing 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.560 you more conversations from the UK in the month to come. 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.279 But today we have another destination podcast for you of 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:29.520 a very different sort. Is it like a destination wedding Brian, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.040 something like that, or more like Robin Leach is Lifestyles 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.559 the Rich and Famous. So we recorded this one in 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.160 a mansion overlooking Beverly Hills. We figured what better place 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:43.240 to interview a household name like Dr Phil than well 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:45.519 in his house. And let's be clear, this is not 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.720 an ordinary house. From the rolls in the driveway to 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.360 the Morano glass ping pong table, Phil McGraw and his 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.600 lovely wife Robin clearly relish their creature, comforts and each other. 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.560 We've been married forty one years, almost forty two, yeah 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:05.119 for almost way tow been together forty and we just 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.480 start having more fun than a barrel of monkeys. You know, 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.679 it's it's crazy, and we have a good time and 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.120 we love it up here. Sometimes we get behind these gates, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.560 and sometimes we won't leave for a week or ten. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.200 I was gonna say, I don't think I'd ever leave 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.280 the house if I lived here. Tennis court here, I 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.679 got a clay court here. Every day, I play summary 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:26.920 eight times a week. Clearly, he's in really good shape. 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:29.520 And you know, while he loves living in this house, 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.920 it was Robin who first fell for it. She noticed 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.520 it under construction about a decade ago, and she liked 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.559 it so much she started driving by every few months 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.000 to check on its progress. And Phil noticed how much 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.920 his wife loved this house, so he decided to buy 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.080 it for her. So he just approached the owner and 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.240 wrote a check. And when you host the number one 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.880 daytime talk show in America, like Phil does, you can 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.440 just do that. But here's the romantic part, Brian. Phil 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.680 didn't tell Robin what he had done. He wanted to 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.400 surprise her, so one day he suggested they drive to 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.040 the house together just to check out what was going on. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.320 And when they arrived, the gate was open, so was 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.360 the front door. Robin was a little freaked out. She 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.680 was wary. She didn't want them to call the police, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.680 but Phil convinced her to walk with him to the porch. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.880 And here's what happened next, in Robin mccraw's own words, 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.919 let me tell it, let me tell you. I'm hiding 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:23.959 behind you because of course I trust you im he'll 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.919 protect me. But I said, phill up, Okay, okay, I've 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.639 seen let's Philip and he laugh. I said, but let's 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.520 get the car. Let's go. And he goes, You're fine, 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.240 let's look and I know, and all of a sudden 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.480 he flips around. He picks me up in his arms, 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.880 carries me over the threshold and says, welcome home. I 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:47.679 just thought you this house. Wow. Clearly she gets a 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.240 little giddy just talking about it. And so when Brian 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.000 and I asked for a tour of their digs, well, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:03:00.120 the mcgraws were happy to oblige you. None so are 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:01.919 I think it takes about a week to see all that. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.760 We have a wine cellar with the ceiling came from 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.320 the Tibetan rainforest, from Tibetan monks, and from the sixteen hundreds. 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.800 It's amazing, Brian, doesn't your wine cellar ceiling wasn't that 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.480 made by Tibetan monks? If I recall, yeah, but in 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.880 the sixteenth century. I mean, I think the seventeenth century 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.720 ones are just junk. So I refused that just so. Meanwhile, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.639 all that wine and even a bar in the house, 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:32.040 But both Robin and Phil are children of alcoholics, and 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.400 Phil told us he doesn't drink. I just resolved early 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.160 on because I saw what it did, was my dad. So, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.520 did you ever drink? Did you? I tried in high school. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.000 I tried to get drunk in high school, and I 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.240 would get a hangover while I was drinking. Brian, who 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.960 needs alcohol. The view from the backyard is absolutely intoxicating. 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.800 You can walk in the front door and see all 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.720 the way across downtown because we love the weather out 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.520 here and we love opening these doors and looking out 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.720 and just seeing everything that we can. It's spectacular. We 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.000 have this big outside area and then it leads to 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.480 a swimming pool, which is beautiful and a spectacular view. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.800 Just your typical American family house. So listeners, it was 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.479 a lot to take in. We really could have taken 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:24.280 you with us for this one. I think they all 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.240 fit in the house. Actually, yeah, I think that's I 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.200 don't know what that says about our ratings. Or their 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.880 house or maybe both. They would have been very crowded 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.160 and very tight, but extremely crowded. And when we were 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.680 done peeking around, Katie and I sat down with just 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.599 Phil to talk about really everything. This was one of 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.279 our most thorough and interesting interviews yet, at least in 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.000 my view. I think you also mean long, So get comfortable, everybody. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.039 We had a lot to cover, from how Oprah was 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.960 instrumental in his success, so the critics who are not 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.200 fans of the medicine, doctor Phil is dispensing, especially because 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.640 they say he's not a real doctor, even though he 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.680 does a PhD in psychology and in fact, Brian, you know, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.840 when I posted a photo of the three of us 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.359 on Instagram, there were a lot of positive comments, but 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.719 also quite a few negative ones. To one person wrote, 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.400 this guy's con man one podcast, I'll be missing. Someone 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.800 else chimed in Dr Phil is an arrogant jerk, And 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.480 then there was this person who said, not stoked about him, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.800 but we'll listen because of you. Katie Couric and you 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:24.800 bribbly wrote that one actually just to give you a 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.560 little boost anyway, Thank you for that. Thank you for 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.360 holding your nose and listening to that listener, but clearly 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.479 not everyone. Brian is a fan of Dr Phil. But 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.960 at the same time Phil show is top rated and 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.560 by the way, is now sixteen seasons in, so he's 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.880 doing something right. So I'll be curious to hear, Brian 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.000 if we change any hearts and minds with this episode. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.320 After people here a little bit about Dr Phil's backstory, 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.479 so we put him in the hot seat for a 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.520 change and tried to find out what makes him tick 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.640 and by the way, what got him into psychology Long 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.159 before his TV show was ever. Phil trained to be 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.320 a psychologist and he and his dad went into practice 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.000 together in Wichita Falls, Texas. So I wanted to know 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:17.400 did he always dream of getting into people's heads? There 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:22.640 was a specific time I can tell you the specific 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.920 moment that I got interested in it. It wasn't something 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.919 that I kind of warm too. There was a specific 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.920 moment in my life that it became a focus of mine. 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.719 I'm excited to hear about this. What was it? It 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.520 involved football and I was in Oklahoma City and we 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.800 were on a team that really had a lot of 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.680 great equipment and great uniforms. I mean everything was. We 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.280 had black uniforms with silver, straight very, Friday night lights 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.720 very and arm bands. I mean, we looked badass, I'm 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.200 telling you. And we thought we were a badass. And 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.840 we had a game rain out, and the Salvation Army 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.279 had a team and they called our coach and said, 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.359 I know he had a game rain out. Could we 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.080 come Monday and play a scrimmage game with you? And 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.800 the coach that sure. So Monday they show up over 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.080 there to play us. Three pickups pull up and these 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.360 kids start piling out the back. It looked like the 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.720 grapes of wrath. I mean, and I'm aging myself, but 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:32.560 I don't think anyone up. But but I mean the kid, 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.680 for example, that lined up across from me had on 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.360 blue jeans for football pants, and he had them rolled 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.360 up so they kind of looked like football pants. He 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.840 had on loafers for shoes instead of football shoes. He 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.480 had a button up shirt and he had the number 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.880 four on it with masking tape. And I'm thinking, you know, 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.320 we're in a huddle, kind of snicker, and you know, like, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:55.760 why didn't he put it on a magic marker that's 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.840 going to come off? Well, he didn't put it on 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.280 a magic marker because that was his shirt. That wasn't 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.320 his shirt for the day that he had to wear 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:08.000 that to school the next day. And so they don't 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.760 kick off because it's a scrimmage. They just snapped the ball, 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:15.960 and they snapped the ball. That kid hit me so 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.560 hard it still hurts when it rains. I kid you not. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.920 They beat us like they were clapping for a barn dance. 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.040 I mean, I thought it was a track meet. They're 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.040 running up and down the field. We can't catch them there. 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:34.280 They probably beat us fifty to nothing. And I remember 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.199 getting in the car everything heard. I had dirt in 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.200 my mouth, you know, I'm looking out the ear hole 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:46.480 in my helmet. I asked my dad what the hell happened, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.680 and he said, well, you just got your gass handed 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:51.560 to you. Boy. I said, well, I was looking for 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.880 a little more depth of an answer, and he said 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.480 they were just hungry. They wanted it more than you did. 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.720 And in that moment, even at that age I was 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.760 like twelve years old, I thought, if they can do 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.760 so much with so little, what should I be able 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:14.040 to do when I've got good equipment, coaches a grass field, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.720 And I was envious. I walked away from their envious 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.920 of those kids. I wanted what they had, and that 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.400 interesting And here I am envious of the Salvation Army 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.800 kids because they had grit, they had they had burning 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.679 in their gut. And at that moment I got focused 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.600 on studying why people do what they do and don't 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.240 do what they don't do. I wanted to know. So 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.079 while all my friends were putting together model airplanes and 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.160 sniffing the glue, I was in the library trying to 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:50.440 read books on motivation and why some people had it 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.719 and some people didn't. I started at twelve years old. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.679 I became fascinated with it, and I've never ever stopped 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.040 being fascinated. You spent a lot of time as a 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.960 psychologist studying the treatment of pain, which obviously is a 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.600 very big issue these days, not just with opioids, but 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.280 according to the ni H, more than twenty five million 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.520 Americans experienced chronic pain, which is pain every single day 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.160 for the last three months. Um, I don't think people 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:21.640 who don't have pain realize how debilitating and depressing it is. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:29.160 What do you attribute this epidemic of pain to? Well, yeah, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.280 it's interesting that you bring that up, Robin, and I 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:37.480 just got back we testified before a joint committee Biparisan 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.360 committee in Congress last week about the opioid crisis, and 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:48.240 particularly with regard to addicted mothers and their children, either 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.600 that they're pregnant with or have just had, and what 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.920 should happen to them, because I feel very strongly about that. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:03.439 But there's organic pain and then there's pain that is perceived, 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.680 and there's two very big differences there. And I used 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:13.720 to run a pain clinic inside a hospital, and there 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:18.760 are so many alternatives to the management of pain besides 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:26.199 opioids and these other pain killers. But medicine has become 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:31.080 a high volume business, and it takes time to teach 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:37.440 people neurotherapy, biofeedback, do cryotherapy, do other things to manage pain. 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.360 That takes time. It takes two seconds to write a prescription. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.240 And there are enough opioid prescriptions right now for every 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.600 person in America to have their own bottle. And if 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:55.560 you take those pills past the eighth day, you have 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.120 a one in seven chance of being addicted at one year. 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.520 If you macome at thirty days, if you're still taking 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.440 you have a one in three chance of being addicted 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.760 at the end of a year. This is an epidemic. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.320 What should be done when you testify it on Capitol Helleny, 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.640 what do you see as the way out of this mess? Well, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.840 I think there has to be accountability right now. There 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.400 has to be accountability. I think the doctors have to 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:28.480 be made highly aware of what's happening with these people 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:33.800 and the high level of risk for addiction. Look, these doctors, 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.480 most of the doctors that are writing these prescriptions are 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:46.440 well trained, well intended, responsible professionals. But they need to 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:52.120 be constantly reminded that these patients will ask for more 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.199 and more and more as long as you'll give them 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.640 to them. And so they have to have a constant 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.720 reminder and they need to give three to five of 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:07.400 these pills, not thirty. And then the manufacturers have to 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.880 be held to account in that regard. And because what's 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.520 happening now is you have a whole new population of 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.800 heroin addict in the suburbs because they take the opioids 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.080 for a period of time and then they stopped taking 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.280 them because heroin is cheaper. So you've now got soccer 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.720 moms on heroin because they can't afford the opiate. It's 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.800 a whole new population of heroin addicts, and you spoke 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.480 about the danger of mothers and fathers who are addicted, 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.000 and maybe the mom was addicted while she was pregnant, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.199 or they're addicted while they have a young kid. What 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.280 do they do in that situation? How do we respond 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.680 as a society to those people. What Robin and I 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:51.400 are advocating for is for them to repurpose dollars in 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:57.880 the Family First Act, where now the dollars are only 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.880 allowed to be used for fall sster care. And what 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.720 we're advocating is that instead of using those dollars for 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:11.240 foster care, put these mothers in family based residential treatment 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.839 where the baby stays with them. And you said, well, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.400 why would you leave a baby with a drug addic mother, Well, 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:19.520 this may be the only time the mother hasn't been 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.360 on drugs is while she's in the treatment center. And 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.400 she might be there six months, seven months, eight months, 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.040 but she's there with her baby. And what happens is 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.040 you're now you're not putting two people in the system. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.760 You put one child in foster care, you put a 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:39.000 mother in prison or whatever. You can't punish your way 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.240 out of this epidemic. So if you put the mother 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.360 and child together in a family based residential treatment center 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.600 A the mother's gonna bond with the baby, they're less 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.160 likely to abandoned the child later. You're not going to 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.680 load up and already overwhelm foster care system, so they 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.120 just need to free up some of that money and 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.000 let it go to treatment. You're not going to punish 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:03.800 your way out of this. You're going to treat your 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:05.960 way out of it. Before we talk a little more 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.080 about your road to success, Phil and I know Brian 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.440 is particularly interested in Courtroom Sciences, which you co founded, 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.120 as Brian's a lawyer, but I wanted to ask you 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:23.160 about recent events. Having just talked about opioid in this epidemic, 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.160 there's an epidemic of gun violence happening in this country. 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.760 As I came over to see you today, as Brian 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.360 and I met you at your house, there was yet 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.200 another shooting in your home state of Texas, outside Houston, 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.480 in a town called Santa Fe. I don't know the 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.000 latest numbers, but it went last I checked, it was 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:48.040 eight or nine students, at least ten students murdered in 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:53.360 their high school. And it makes me so upset and 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.480 so infuriated and this of course comes on the heels 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:02.400 of Parkland, which was what just over three months ago, Phil, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.160 What are we going to do about this? You know, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.520 I had many of the Parkland students on my show 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.880 and I had some of the Columbine students there at 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.600 the same time, and uh, there was a really interesting 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:25.640 dynamic there because these Columbine students, We're saying, every time 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:30.000 this happens, they get re traumatized. It triggers for them 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.920 and they never really got what they needed in the interim. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.440 And this is, by the way, almost twenty years ago, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.360 because Columbine happened in because I covered that shooting. And 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.400 by the way, there was a girl who was interviewed 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.640 today who was at the school and she was asked 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.560 the question that all the reporters asked, that you ever 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.320 think it could happen here? And her response was so 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.040 striking to me. She said, yes, I thought it could 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.200 happen here because it's happening all over the place. I 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.000 expected at some point there would be a shooting here. 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.760 I think there have been. We could look it up 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.120 right quick, but I think there have been close to 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.760 thirty school shooting so far this year. It's like one 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.919 a week, I think, yeah, something that's just terrible. Um, 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:14.320 here's the problem. From a psychological standpoint, we absolutely do 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.680 not have the ability to predict who's going to do this. UM. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.960 And you can say, well, if anybody has a history 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:27.399 of mental illness, don't give him a gun. The mentally 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.879 ill population has a lower incidence of violence than a 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.119 general population. I know. And it infuriates me when people 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.600 say it's mental illness because that is such a red herring, 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.840 and it also stigmatizes everyone with mental illness. And they're real, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.159 real people in every country, but they don't have this 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:49.320 gun violence problem. So what is the solution? Um? I 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:54.240 think what we have to do is have an intelligent 0:17:54.359 --> 0:18:00.399 conversation about this instead of a political yelling match about this. Amen. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.040 Right now, you've got people on both sides of this 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.600 issue that takes something like this and politicize it. I 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.080 think what you have to do is start out by saying, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.120 let's see what we agree on. Anytime I'm negotiating with somebody, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.199 the first thing I try to do is narrow the 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.440 issues and say, before we try to resolve our differences, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.040 let's see what we agree on. Because when you do that, 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.360 you often find out that you're not nearly as far 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.680 apart as you. Thank you on this issue, though, Phil, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:39.359 I honestly really wonder for this super extremists and you 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.520 n r A members actually believe there should be more 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.920 sensible gun laws. But for the extremists who believe there's 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.160 a slippery slope and this is the price of liberty 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.200 and freedom, this is what we have to put up with. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.560 There's very there's not much of a vent diagram between 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:05.600 the two groups. That doesn't mean there can't be I mean, look, 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:12.440 is there any theory under which somebody needs an A 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.000 K forty seven? Is there any theory under which anybody 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.679 needs an assault rifle? I don't care if you're the 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:24.840 most staunch Second Amendment supporter in the world. Is there 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:30.000 any reason that there is a recreational use a Second 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.760 Amendment justification for an A K forty seven where you 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.639 can put out so much lead, so much death in 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:43.200 a short period of time, that let's find out, there 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:48.000 has to be some sensibility that comes along with it. 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:53.400 You can't have rights without responsibilities, and you can't say 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.800 we have to throw out the Amendment. That doesn't mean 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.960 you can't have some modifications within the US. You you you 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:07.240 have people right now that are just so they have 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.280 so much firepower to do so much devastation in such 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.880 a short period of time, that we are setting ourselves 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.960 up for destruction. That has to change. It absolutely has 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:23.560 to change. It's time now to take a quick break. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.440 When we come back, Phil tells us about his old 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.440 gig running a trial consulting firm and how this work 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.679 led him to the woman who gave him his big break. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:45.760 I'm talking about Oprah people. That's right after this and 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:51.640 now back to our interview with Dr Phil McGrath. You 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:53.960 took a turn in your career. You co founded a 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.000 company called Courtroom Sciences, Inc. Predating cs I. You have 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.840 the original c s I, which is a trial consulting firm. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:10.359 Can you explain what that business did what you did? Yes, Um, basically, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:16.600 in every situation, if you know what your fact pattern is, 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.120 you may have a thousand facts. I'll promise you there 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.719 is a subset of those thousand facts, maybe ten or twelve, 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:29.680 configured in a certain way that, if presented, are your 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:34.440 best chance of getting home, your best chance to get 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:39.160 into a verdict. And trial science is about finding out 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.520 out of that thousand facts, what are those best twelve 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:50.040 and who are they best presented to and in what way? 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:56.959 And so we always researched cases. Uh, we trained witnesses 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.160 to tell the truth effectively. There's a big different. It's 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.800 between telling the truth and telling the truth effectively. And 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:10.520 we we're very active in jury selection. It's really de selection, 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.920 but in shaping who gets on the jury and then 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:18.280 figuring out what they need to hear to support your case. 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.200 But do you ever feel that's unethical in any way? 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.760 Do you feel like it's stacking the jury? It's kind 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:31.119 of antithetical to uh, you know, a jury of your peers, 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:35.760 because only wealthy clients can afford the services of somebody 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:40.080 like that, and that, Um, I don't know that. There's 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:48.720 something that just is intrinsically unjust about that telling the 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.199 truth effectively, not so much telling the truth effectively, but 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.960 hand picking people who you believe will help your clients. Well, 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:02.159 that presumes that the other side is not hand picking 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.000 the jury as best they can. Well, if they have 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.280 a public defender, probably they're not. Oh, we work with 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.879 the public defenders a lot. Really sure, we did a 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:15.439 lot of proboble in cases. But understand they're trying to 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.200 pick the best jury they possibly can do. I think 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.800 it's unethically to do it better. No, No, I don't 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:28.560 doing your void dear thing. Right, is how you met 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:33.040 Oprah Winfrey is So that was back in the day 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.840 when she was being sued for something she said on 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.359 her program about mad cow disease. Right, So tell us 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:45.960 about that meeting. And obviously there was some kismet for 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.920 both of you, and she had you at hello, or 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:53.440 you had her at hello. Well, she was sued, and 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:59.320 again this is a situation where in the court of 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:08.600 public opinion, and she was sued by ranchers cattleman, which 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:12.840 was not the case at all. She was sued by 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:19.359 cattle manufacturers. These were feed lot people that moved cattle 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:23.639 by the tens of thousands through feed lost. This wasn't 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:28.760 Joe Rancher out here cow pokin and you know feeding 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:35.719 this cattle agricultural industrial complex. It was big business, big business. 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.960 And she made a comment about beef and cattle futures 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:45.080 went limited down on the Chicago Board of Trade that day, 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.639 which equals billions of dollars. And so she was sued 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:55.000 um unjustly in my opinion, and so they took her 0:24:55.000 --> 0:25:00.240 to trial in federal court in Amarillo, and um, not 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:03.080 a great place to be. Not a great place to be. 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:07.440 I remember just as the trial was starting, she leaned 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.400 up to me and said, UM, I don't see any 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:15.760 peers over there. I don't I don't see black jerors. 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:19.080 I don't see anybody over there looks like me. And 0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:24.280 that panel derived income directly or indirectly from the beef industry, 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.720 then why couldn't you move to have the trial relocated? 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:32.800 Because the judge said, no, oh, I hate that. So 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:36.639 did I think it was unfair to help her? No? 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.120 I didn't think it was unfair to help her. And 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.879