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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is psychiatrist

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Speaker 1: Julie Holland. She has a private practice in New York

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Speaker 1: City and is the author of several books, including the

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Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller Moody Bitches at a Memoir Weekends

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Speaker 1: at Bellevue. For decades, she's been researching the use of

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Speaker 1: psychedelics to treat mental health issues, with a particular focus

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Speaker 1: on using M D m A and cannabis to treat

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Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder. Many people are struggling with their

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Speaker 1: mental health in this long period of social distancing, but

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Speaker 1: Holland says, even before the trauma this pandemic has caused,

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Speaker 1: we were not doing that well mentally. I've been doing

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Speaker 1: phone sessions from up here in Duchess County, UM, and

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Speaker 1: some of my patients are still in the city, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of my patients have sort of flown the

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Speaker 1: coup to places where there's a lower density of people,

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Speaker 1: but importantly places where there's more nature and they're getting outside. Um,

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Speaker 1: they're getting more sun, more nature, and that I think

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Speaker 1: for me, it's been a real bomb and one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's helped me feel balanced or saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: a good antidote sort of to how toxic the news

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Speaker 1: is and everything that's happening is if I go out

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Speaker 1: into the woods or the swamp or the lake, and

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Speaker 1: I really feel much much calmer. You know, we can

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Speaker 1: discuss what the snapshot is and what the health of

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Speaker 1: the country is and beyond during the COVID, but to

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Speaker 1: whatever extent you're willing to venture an opinion, what was

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Speaker 1: the mental health of the country like prior to the

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Speaker 1: Cobb Oh? Yes, well, you know, we actually had a

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Speaker 1: couple of big epidemics before this pandemic, right. We had

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Speaker 1: the overdose epidemic. We had more and more people, uh,

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Speaker 1: not only dying of opiate overdoses or accidental overdoses, but

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Speaker 1: also more people drinking themselves to death. And we also

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Speaker 1: had what was called the epidemic of loneliness, where we

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Speaker 1: had more and more people living alone. Everybody had gotten

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Speaker 1: into their own little pod even prior to this pandemic,

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Speaker 1: but we were not happier because of it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: all the isolation. People felt very lonely, which makes people

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Speaker 1: feel both depressed and anxious. I would love to talk

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Speaker 1: more about why social isolation makes us so anxious. You

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Speaker 1: point out that there are strains in our society beyond

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Speaker 1: the COVID, the predate the COVID, and I want to

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Speaker 1: get to later on when people are isolated COVID or no,

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Speaker 1: and when people are feeling an abundance of distress, are

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Speaker 1: the cures, healthcare, guaranteed income ways to address I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems that people are lonely, they can't afford healthcare,

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Speaker 1: they can't afford food, and they don't have a job.

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Speaker 1: The constant fear of the future. Right, So it's impossible

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Speaker 1: for me to talk about depression anxiety without talking about

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Speaker 1: politics and health policy and social policy. They're so intertwined.

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Speaker 1: And you were asking, you know, before the pandemic, how

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Speaker 1: were we doing, and I was saying, we really weren't

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Speaker 1: doing very well. You know, whenever there's sort of gross inequality,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people aren't going to do well. And

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Speaker 1: it's not just that they have more physical problems, but

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Speaker 1: they have more mental health problems. And addiction is a

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Speaker 1: sign of unrest and on wellness. It's not really a

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Speaker 1: thing in and of itself, it's a symptom of something bigger.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that we had more and more people

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Speaker 1: addicted to opiates and and overdosing. I mean, there was

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Speaker 1: a glut and there, you know, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of money being made and making the drug and distributing

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Speaker 1: the drug. But you know, gobormates is this great thing

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Speaker 1: which is don't ask why the addiction, asked why the pain.

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Speaker 1: We were in pain. People were in pain before the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: You know, nine eleven was very tough on the inhabitants

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Speaker 1: of New York City, and people got very anxious and

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Speaker 1: started paying more attention to political issues. And then, honestly,

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Speaker 1: you know, after Donald got elected, you know, everybody in

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Speaker 1: the town who knew him and knew who he was

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Speaker 1: and what he was made of, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of despair and and anxiety. And you know, the type

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Speaker 1: of people who come to see a private psychiatrist I

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Speaker 1: think tend to lean left, honestly, so I definitely have

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Speaker 1: a bias sample. But my patients were really not only

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Speaker 1: afraid for the country and for our democracy, but also

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Speaker 1: for the planet. You know, there's this sort of background

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Speaker 1: app that's always running, whether we know it or not,

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Speaker 1: which is that we are in sort of mourning for

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Speaker 1: what's happening to the planet, and there's a deep level

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Speaker 1: of despair. And the more disconnected we are from ourselves,

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Speaker 1: from our friends, from each other, from the planet, the

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Speaker 1: worse we feel. The more depressed we are, the more

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Speaker 1: anxious we are. So it's been going on, and I

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Speaker 1: would add to that, we're moving further and further and

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Speaker 1: further away from a connection between the will of the

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Speaker 1: people and what the government's going to do. The government

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Speaker 1: operates completely independent of the will of the people, right,

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Speaker 1: and they do whatever they want to do. They just

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Speaker 1: ignore what mainstream thought is about. But the end result

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Speaker 1: for we the people is that we get despairing and

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Speaker 1: depressed because we're powerless. Right, It doesn't matter what they want, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the popular vote doesn't matter. This

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Speaker 1: sense of powerlessness is a setup for depression. Right. This

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Speaker 1: is your fifth book with a book like this comes

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Speaker 1: along once that process, Like how did this book start

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Speaker 1: to germinate with you? This book started to germinate while

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Speaker 1: I was stand up paddling on a lake and there

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Speaker 1: was mist. There was all this mist coming out of

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Speaker 1: the lake, and I wanted to be in the midst.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be enveloped in the mist, and I

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Speaker 1: was paddling out to where the mist was, but wherever

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Speaker 1: I went, it seemed like the mist wasn't there anymore,

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Speaker 1: and it was somewhere else. And I would paddle somewhere

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Speaker 1: else where it looked like the mist was thick, and

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Speaker 1: then it wasn't there. And the thing I finally realized

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Speaker 1: is you're in the mist. The mist is all around you.

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Speaker 1: It's just that because of the light, you can't see it,

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Speaker 1: but it's there. And it was, you know, the sort

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Speaker 1: of epiphany to me that you know, we're always chase

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Speaker 1: sing for things, and really the things that we want

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Speaker 1: were the really right in our backyard. And you know,

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Speaker 1: while that ended up not being the main message of

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Speaker 1: good chemistry, it is definitely a message for me now

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Speaker 1: and for my patients now that you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were spinning their wheels and running around and

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Speaker 1: now that they're sort of stuck in place, it turns

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Speaker 1: out that they do have a lot of things that

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Speaker 1: they need and that it's been good to sort of

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Speaker 1: hunker down and go inward or be with family. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a cocooning period. One. Yeah, in the beginning, everybody

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Speaker 1: was like if I just knew when this would end,

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Speaker 1: I would be okay, you know, if I knew it

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Speaker 1: was just for the summer or you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: when it started, it was like when if I know

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Speaker 1: it was just April, right, But that was a big deal.

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Speaker 1: For the first few months with my patients, was just

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Speaker 1: this idea that they needed to be able to encapsulate it.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it could be compartmentalized, then they could

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Speaker 1: deal with it. But this idea that you don't know

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Speaker 1: how long it's going to go on. The thing, obviously,

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Speaker 1: Michael Turn is about my children. I mean my children.

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Speaker 1: I want their social skill ills to mature, and I

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Speaker 1: want them and they're growing so quickly. My daughter who's

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Speaker 1: seven now, I mean she's like Lillian Hellman, you know,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that comes out of her mouth now, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of amazing. She's so sharp and so clever

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Speaker 1: and so and I want, I don't want their development,

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Speaker 1: which prior to this we were kind of thrilled by.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just really just chattered and I'm in a

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Speaker 1: lot of pain that I'm suffering about how although there's

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Speaker 1: some beautiful unintended consequences where they found each other and

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Speaker 1: they only have each other. So the bonding and the

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Speaker 1: relationships between them have become so profound. But my kids,

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Speaker 1: like when you have a five year old boy turned

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Speaker 1: to you the other and he goes, I missed New York.

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Speaker 1: You know, he said, I missed New York, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not thought to myself. You know, it sounds like Steve

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Speaker 1: Rupel in prison. You know what I mean. I missed

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Speaker 1: New York. I missed Studio fifty four. You know, my

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Speaker 1: son's five, and he's like, I missed you. I'm going,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, tore me apart apart. You know. In

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Speaker 1: my dealing my patients, sometimes I'm talking to a parent

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Speaker 1: who's very worried about their kid and whether their kids

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Speaker 1: going to go in or or go virtually. Um. I

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Speaker 1: also have some patients who are teachers who are really

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Speaker 1: worried about the kids. And and you know, everybody has

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Speaker 1: a different opinion about what should happen. Everybody has the

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Speaker 1: same fears. Everybody wants what's best for the kids. But

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Speaker 1: it really is a no win situation. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: just like everybody gets the misery spread sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Nobody really gets exactly what they want, you know, certainly

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Speaker 1: with hybrid it's for my teachers. It's like the worst

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Speaker 1: of both worlds. But the thing about our kids is,

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Speaker 1: you know, we know what they're missing. You know, my

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Speaker 1: son didn't get to be a c I T at camp,

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Speaker 1: or uh, you know, didn't get to play drums in

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Speaker 1: the in the high school musical, or somebody didn't get

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Speaker 1: to go to the prom. Like, we know what those

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Speaker 1: things are and we know what they're missing. But the

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Speaker 1: kids themselves who haven't they don't know what they're missing,

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Speaker 1: they haven't gone through it. I think it's actually easier

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Speaker 1: on them. I mean, I'm not saying it's easy on

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Speaker 1: the kids. I know, and more kids are being diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with anxiety and being treated with the antiangs I d

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Speaker 1: meads right now than ever before. So no, it's not

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Speaker 1: easy on them. But sometimes I think that, you know

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Speaker 1: what we wish for them, it's this extra layer of

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Speaker 1: mourning or anxiety that maybe they don't even really have.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they are more resilient, certainly. I've told this

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Speaker 1: story before, I think on this podcast, so I'll do

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Speaker 1: the distilled version of my friend who lived in Italy.

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Speaker 1: He was British originally and he was there for several years.

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Speaker 1: And he came back and I said, when you came

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Speaker 1: back after nine years in Italy, what's the changes you noticed?

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Speaker 1: He said. One thing I don't like of these applications

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Speaker 1: that these people have for dating and meeting. He said.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I hate is ways, because sometimes getting

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Speaker 1: lost it's the greatest thing that could happen to You

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Speaker 1: might get lost and go somebody to get directions, and

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Speaker 1: when you go to the gas station you meet your

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Speaker 1: wife of the cash register, right, And he said, we've

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Speaker 1: taken all the serendipity out of out of the world.

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Speaker 1: Now do you find that people are leading on apps, devices,

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Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff social media more than ever now? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know when when I wrote Good Chemistry, it was

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Speaker 1: before COVID, but I was already saying, you know, put

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Speaker 1: down your phone. You have to go out and see

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Speaker 1: people in real space. First of all, you know, anybody's

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Speaker 1: profile picture, like maybe it's them, maybe it's them on

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Speaker 1: their best day, or maybe it's some photoshopic not even

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Speaker 1: be them. I mean you just you just don't know.

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Speaker 1: And also it's not you know how tall somebody is

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Speaker 1: or how they look three dimentially, it's really is also

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Speaker 1: how people smell. And this is something I explained in

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Speaker 1: Moody Bitches that we actually mate to some degree. You know,

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Speaker 1: Pheromone detection is a real thing, and it helps us

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Speaker 1: figure out not only whether we like the way someone smells,

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Speaker 1: but whether they would be a good physiological match for

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Speaker 1: us on a genetic level. You know, if you're immune

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Speaker 1: to five things and somebody else is immune to five things,

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Speaker 1: if you have a kid, it's possible that kid will

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Speaker 1: be immune to all ten things. So you want somebody

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Speaker 1: who's a little bit genetically dissimilar to you. And one

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Speaker 1: of the ways that the body figures that out for

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Speaker 1: mating is through smell, So you know, until there's like

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Speaker 1: a scratch and sniff app I think that people are

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Speaker 1: going to have to really you know, it's good to

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Speaker 1: I mean before COVID, I was like just you know,

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Speaker 1: meet for a coffee or whatever. But you can get

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Speaker 1: so delusional about who you're texting or you know, if

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Speaker 1: they happen to spell the way that you think, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you care about spelling or uh, you know it's political,

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Speaker 1: but like you know, they you really it's not just

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Speaker 1: about how they spell and it is. You know, there

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Speaker 1: are such things as like auras and energies and you know,

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Speaker 1: souls and spiritual things like that. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: know psychiatrists aren't supposed to say any of those words,

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Speaker 1: but I think they're real, and I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: intuition is a real thing. You know, your gut reaction

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Speaker 1: to somebody, you're not gonna get. You just gonna project

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Speaker 1: all of your own things onto something because you don't

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Speaker 1: have enough information. Back to the book, which is that

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Speaker 1: so the mist is everywhere and you're pandling yourself towards

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Speaker 1: the mist that it's there. But what did you want

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Speaker 1: to cover in this book? What did you want? What experience?

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Speaker 1: What people have when they read the book. Well, the

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Speaker 1: book is really about how important it is for us

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Speaker 1: to connect and sort of the physical aspects of connection,

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Speaker 1: the physiology why our bodies are designed so that if

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Speaker 1: we feel connected, we are soothed, and if we feel disconnected,

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Speaker 1: we get kind of agitated and anxious or depressed. So

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Speaker 1: it's about these very basic ideas of connecting with the self,

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Speaker 1: being in your body, being present in the moment. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the way good chemistry is set up. The first

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Speaker 1: chapter is about connection with the self. The second chapter

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Speaker 1: is about connecting with another person and all about pheromones

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Speaker 1: and sex and orgasm and all that fun stuff. The

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Speaker 1: third chapters about family and how those connections work from

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Speaker 1: a physiological point of view. Right, So I start talking

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Speaker 1: a lot about oxytocin, which is a hormone that's involved

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Speaker 1: in pregnancy, nursing, delivery, and again, and it's very high

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Speaker 1: oxytose and state for orgasm. Then after self coupled Family,

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Speaker 1: there's a chapter in society where I talk about how

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Speaker 1: communities connect and what the physiology is of that, and

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Speaker 1: how oxytocin plays a role in us versus them. Right,

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Speaker 1: if you think, oh, you're on my you know you're

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Speaker 1: in my tribe, you're my people. But that guy over there,

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Speaker 1: you know he's them, that's an oxytocin effect. Also, then

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Speaker 1: there's a chapter on connecting with nature and about sort

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Speaker 1: of ecological activism versus this. You know, feeling despair, you

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Speaker 1: know that action will help you feel better, Plus it's

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Speaker 1: better for the planet. Then the last chapter is about

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Speaker 1: connecting with the cosmos, or perhaps if you're fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: to have had a psychedelic experience and you've had a

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Speaker 1: peak experience. You have this sense of everything is connected.

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Speaker 1: You know, it all makes sense, it's all connected, and

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Speaker 1: I'm part of that, and that is a peak mystical experience.

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Speaker 1: It is also a high oxytocin experience. So the book

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Speaker 1: is about oxytocin as sort of the the hormone or

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Speaker 1: the neuro transmitter that underlies all these feelings of connection.

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Speaker 1: They make us feel safe, like we belong. And oxytocin

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Speaker 1: is an antidepressant. It can be used to treat drug addiction,

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Speaker 1: and it coincidentally, there's some drugs that make you feel

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Speaker 1: safe and like you belong, and that's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why we use them. Psychiatrist Julie Holland. If it's

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Speaker 1: connection you're seeking, subscribe to Here's the Thing on the

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Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. If Dr Holland's research into psychedelics to treat

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Speaker 1: mental illness has piqued your interest, be sure to check

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Speaker 1: out the Here's the Thing archives. At my conversation with

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Speaker 1: author Michael Pollen, I started looking at that really interesting

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Speaker 1: question is why is the species? Do we want to

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Speaker 1: change our consciousness? I mean, it's not adaptive, right, It

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Speaker 1: puts you at all sorts of risk. But we have

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Speaker 1: this desire and in fact, many animals have it too,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of a mystery, which which animals have

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Speaker 1: a desire to. Elephants love to get drunk, and you

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Speaker 1: can imagine how much it takes. You can hear the

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Speaker 1: rest of my conversation with Michael Pollen at Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing dot Org after the Break. Psychiatrist Julie Holland explains

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Speaker 1: why she's dedicated her life to understanding how our brains

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Speaker 1: are wired. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing. Dr Julie Holland says she's hearing from a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are self medicating their way through

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. I'm thirty five years sober in a twelve

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Speaker 1: step program, and I'm always mindful of, you know, the

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Speaker 1: substitutive nature. You know what else did I put in

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Speaker 1: their food? Sex, money, power, workaholism, love, addiction, whatever. I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you have seen that with your patients as well.

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Speaker 1: We're during lockdown. I don't want to use the word abuse,

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Speaker 1: but you know, medicating themselves with food pornography. Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: all of it. Yeah, at the same time, well, you

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Speaker 1: can multitask with you know, two computers, I guess in theory, um,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a lot there to unpack, you know.

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Speaker 1: We there are all sorts of ways that people soothed themselves.

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Speaker 1: I think one thing to keep in mind is that

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Speaker 1: the way most of us were taught. The earliest ways

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Speaker 1: we were soothed were orally right, somebody stuck a past

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Speaker 1: fire in your mouth, or a bottle, or if you're lucky,

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Speaker 1: you got a nipple and abreast and a person holding you.

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Speaker 1: But still there were times when that wasn't available. You

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Speaker 1: learn to suck your thumb or bite your nails. You

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Speaker 1: start eating, maybe if you're a woman growing up in

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Speaker 1: the United States America, whenever you eat, you feel guilty,

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Speaker 1: and then you end up soothing that agitated guilty state

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Speaker 1: with more food. So the COVID nineteen like people gaining

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Speaker 1: nineteen pounds during the quarantine, is a real phenomenon for

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Speaker 1: my patients. The quarantine e has taken on a life

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Speaker 1: of its own. I definitely patients who are smoking more

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Speaker 1: pot um, you know, I thought it was fascinating that

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Speaker 1: cannabis went from being you know, Schedule one illegal drug

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Speaker 1: to like essential during the pandemic. That was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty interesting. Moon. And you know, the other thing

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Speaker 1: I want to say about the sort of embarrassment of

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Speaker 1: riches or a lot of abundance besides there being a

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Speaker 1: lot of options of cannabis based medicines, is there's something

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Speaker 1: really exciting happening in psychiatry now. You know, we've had

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same tools for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and some things are hard to treat, especially post traumatic

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Speaker 1: stress disorder. And what we're seeing now with m d

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Speaker 1: M A assisted therapy, which is better known as ecstasy

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Speaker 1: or molly or psilocybin assisted psychotherapy, as that psychiatry all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden has some new tools at our disposal.

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Speaker 1: Ketamine is another very sort of separate and controversial issue,

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Speaker 1: but at least people are getting used to this idea

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Speaker 1: that they can have some sort of inexperience where they

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Speaker 1: can examine themselves more, maybe look at their childhood trauma process.

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Speaker 1: Some things come out of this altered state a little

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Speaker 1: bit better, a little bit less depressed, a little bit

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Speaker 1: less anxious. That's a new paradigm that's a completely different

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Speaker 1: way of thinking about these drugs. Uh. This idea of

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Speaker 1: psychedelic psychiatry brand new, pretty exciting, but something you've been

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Speaker 1: in love for a while, not new to me, right.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about that. Be your beginnings in

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Speaker 1: terms of that and your beginnings in terms of psychiatry,

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Speaker 1: because as a psychiatrist, you're obviously a medical doctor, correct,

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Speaker 1: I am, Where did you go to medical school? I

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Speaker 1: went to University of Pennsylvania. Undergrad, I went to Temple

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Speaker 1: for med school, so I stayed in Philadelphia, and then

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Speaker 1: I went to New York City and I did my

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Speaker 1: psychiatric residency at Mount Sinai Hospital, and then I spent

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Speaker 1: nine years running the psychiatric emergency room every Saturday night

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Speaker 1: and Sunday night, which was kind of a rock and

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Speaker 1: roll psychiatry job. It was the e R at Bellevue Hospital,

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Speaker 1: the psyche r. So after those nine years, I a

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Speaker 1: book call weekends at Bellevue about my time there. But

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Speaker 1: because I had grown up in the seventies and a

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Speaker 1: suburb full of interesting drugs to try. And then when

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Speaker 1: I was an undergrad, I started learning about this m

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Speaker 1: d M a assisted psychotherapy, which I was very interested

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Speaker 1: in because when I was at Penn, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I was reading about and hearing about a new drug,

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Speaker 1: and like you know, when you're studying psychopharmacology at at

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Speaker 1: undergrad and there's a new drug that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: big summer for you. So I got very interested in

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Speaker 1: m d m A and I wrote a big paper

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Speaker 1: about it because I was at a summer school class

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Speaker 1: I was taking um. That turned into the Ecstasy Book,

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Speaker 1: and that was my first book. I assigned chapters to

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Speaker 1: every expert um on every different facet of M d

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Speaker 1: m A. And then a few years later I ended

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Speaker 1: up doing that with the Pop Book also, So those

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Speaker 1: are actually two books that I edited. I wrote some

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Speaker 1: of it, but not all of it. I knew I

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Speaker 1: was going to be a psychiatrist from a pretty young

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Speaker 1: I mean I knew I wanted to do something with

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Speaker 1: the brain, well, knowing that psychiatry involves a far greater

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Speaker 1: commitment academically because of the medical degree than of being

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Speaker 1: a psychologist or a social something related. What's the impulse

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Speaker 1: to psychiatry in the young woman from your background? Like,

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Speaker 1: when did you know you wanted to do this? And

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Speaker 1: put in all that time I wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: doctor from a pretty young age. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was definitely the kind of person who played doctor,

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Speaker 1: you know, wrapped people up in bandages. I mean I

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Speaker 1: I am. I was a smart kid, was very interested

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Speaker 1: in drugs, very interested in the brain. Um pretty sure

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Speaker 1: I was going to be either like a neurologist or

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Speaker 1: nursergon or psychiatrist before I even went to undergrad Like,

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Speaker 1: I chose pen because they had a major called the

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Speaker 1: Biological Basis of Behavior. It was all about the brain

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Speaker 1: and psycho farm. I had a subscription of psychology today.

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Speaker 1: When I was in high school, Like, I was one

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Speaker 1: of those kids who just kind of I like this,

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Speaker 1: and what did your parents do? My mom was a

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Speaker 1: science teacher, and my dad is a structural engineer, very analytical.

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Speaker 1: I was interested in science, and I was very analytical.

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Speaker 1: And and I grew up in the seventies where just

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Speaker 1: drugs were all around me, and I was fascinated that

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Speaker 1: a little piece of paper could make you, you know,

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Speaker 1: see the world in a completely different way. And how

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Speaker 1: would you distinguish for people who don't have that much

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Speaker 1: of an intimacy with certain kinds of pharmaceuticals? And a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of drugs. Like for me when I was

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Speaker 1: growing up and I was in my you know, riding

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Speaker 1: the range out there in my drug and alcohol phase. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, cocaine was the king. But for people who

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Speaker 1: don't know about ecstasy and psilocybin, you feel there are

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Speaker 1: benefits to either or both, Why what did they achieve

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Speaker 1: in terms of therapy? So here's what I would say

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Speaker 1: about m DMA and psilocybin in terms of psychiatry. I mean,

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Speaker 1: first of all, the thing to keep in mind is,

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Speaker 1: right now, these are still research chemicals. They're not legal.

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Speaker 1: People can't prescribe them, but they are both going through

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Speaker 1: an FDA approval process so that they will be prescribable

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Speaker 1: in the context of their rapy. Right. So this is

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Speaker 1: not you know, buying a tablet of ecstasy or some

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Speaker 1: white powder that somebody tells you as molly and being

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Speaker 1: on a dance floor and getting overheated or overhydrated, and

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Speaker 1: those things are seriously dangerous. Also you just don't know

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Speaker 1: what you're getting. This is in the context of that

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Speaker 1: you're lying on a couch with a hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: milligrams or maybe even only eighty milligrams, which is pretty

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Speaker 1: low dose of pure m d m A. You're not

427
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: dancing for hours, you're not overhydrating, so the medical risks

428
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: in that situation are pretty minimal, which is why the

429
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: FDA is allowed these studies to go ahead. Right now,

430
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: there are multi center trials going on with m d

431
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: m A assisted psychotherapy sessions all over America and a

432
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: few other countries, and psilocybin assisted psychotherapy research is happening

433
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: in America and all over Europe and given to who

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: for what, so for Some of the psilocybin studies are

435
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: for treatment resistant depression and some of them are just

436
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: for regular major depression. The m d m A studies

437
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: are looking at pos traumatic stress disorder. There's also one

438
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: m d m A study where they looked at social

439
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: anxiety in adults on the autistic spectrum. For people who

440
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 1: don't know anything about ecstasy or molly or what, you know,

441
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: this is methylene dioxy meth emphetamine m d m A.

442
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: So the methymphetamine part may sound familiar to you. It's

443
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: sort of a cousin of speed, but it has a

444
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: more of a psychedelic component to it, So what you

445
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: end up with is something that increases your serotonin massively,

446
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: so you're very relaxed and you feel sort of satiated,

447
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: like you don't need anything. It also increases your dopamine

448
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 1: because of the methymphetamine base, so you are awake, alert,

449
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: you have very good recall for the event. You want

450
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: to talk, you want to dig, you want to conn.

451
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: But there's one more very important part of m d

452
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: m A as it increases oxytocin, so you have that

453
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: sense of safety and connection, like you belong, and so

454
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: you end up with this sort of you're calm, but

455
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: you're open, right, So the openness like open to bonding,

456
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: open to trusting, open to looking at your ship. You know,

457
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: it's almost like anesthesia with or without surgery. Like when

458
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: you go to therapy. You get to a certain point

459
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh no, that hurts that bad stuff

460
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 1: happened there. That's too tender. I don't want to talk

461
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: about it. And the therapist says, okay, maybe next week

462
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: we will. But then maybe you cancel and you don't

463
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: see her. You know, it fits and starts. It takes

464
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: a long time for therapy. This is one or two

465
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: sessions where you feel comfortable enough and trusting enough, but

466
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: awake and alert enough that you can really do some digging.

467
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: So it is like a catalyst for therapy. So that's

468
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: M D M A and psilocybin is different. It's something

469
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 1: really different. Well, right, so it's you you have a

470
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: mystical psychedelic experience. Maybe you're in a void which is scary.

471
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: Maybe you are in that place where I said, like

472
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: where you feel like everything is connected in your bathe

473
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: with love. But what happens reliably and people when you

474
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: give them psilocybin is you can do some mystical experience.

475
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: And when you have that sense of everything is connected

476
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: and love is the answer that when you have that

477
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: sort of big experience, it can lead to a lot

478
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: of behavioral changes. And also there's something called neuroplasticity, which

479
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: is the brain rewiring itself. I'm up for that. I

480
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: need that, right. So there's some psychedelics that cause neurons

481
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: to grow or synapsis to grow. You get neurogenesis or

482
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: synapter genesis. This means you're getting new brain cells, new connections.

483
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: So not the frying pan and the egg that we

484
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: are exposed to in the eighties, Like this is you know,

485
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: this is drugs. This is your brain on drugs. It

486
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: really for these particular drugs, it is quite the opposite

487
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: where you've got new brain cells, it's not killing brain cells,

488
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: and you've got new connections, a little bit of rewiring.

489
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: But do you do some predictive kind of work, like

490
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: for example, you say to me hallucinogenics like psilocybin, and

491
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: I think to myself, I'm sitting on my couch and

492
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: I take this pill and all of a sudden, I

493
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: feel like I'm paddle boarding into the mist on a

494
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: lake and upstatement, you are going to have left my couch,

495
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: right do you do? You do you do predictive things

496
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: with them before you give them the drug before because

497
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: because some people might have a negative reaction to it.

498
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: Not okay, so quite so. The most important thing I

499
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: can tell you is it because this is just research. Now,

500
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: people are screened like you and believe, very heavily screamed. Right,

501
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: So if you have a history of psychosis, if you

502
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: have a family history of psychosis, you're not going to

503
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: be on that couch. But you know, I actually don't

504
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: say hallucinogen because it's it's not like you see pink

505
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: elephants that aren't there. I mean, you know with with SILSA,

506
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: I mean you may have visions, but you kind of

507
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: know their visions. You know, you don't start interacting with

508
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: things that aren't there. But their mind manifesting medicines, their

509
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: consciousness medicines. And I would say, Alec that these are

510
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: disruptive medicines and psychiatry. This is a disruptive paradigm making

511
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: therapy go deeper and faster and getting people to turn

512
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: away from instead of taking a daily dose of antidepressants

513
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: or anti anxiety meds, they're having single sessions or maybe

514
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: two or three sessions over half a year or a year,

515
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: but they don't need the daily dose afterwards. And in

516
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: the m d M A PTSD studies, they're not meeting

517
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: criteria for PTSD at the end of the study. When

518
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: did you ascertain that you had developed the ability to

519
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: know when you were taking drugs and you were self

520
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: medicating in a recreational way, and when you were taking

521
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: drugs and it was part of your scientific research, Meaning

522
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: when did you sidestep the Dr Checkl and Mr Hyde

523
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: steven sony and a chapter of your life there? Well,

524
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: I would say for many people who use drugs. It

525
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: is a daily calibration and a daily question and an

526
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 1: important question to be conscious of. What is your relationship

527
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: with this drug? When are you using it, How are

528
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 1: you using it, Why are you using it? Is it

529
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: interfering with other things that need to happen? But you know,

530
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: I think these are hard questions. Did you come to

531
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: that point yourself when you were younger where you said

532
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: there are things you were doing that that you thought

533
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: you thought as if this isn't helping me, right? Sure?

534
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: I mean I I smoked cigarettes for years and years

535
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: and years before stopping, and that was something I'm a singer,

536
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: so I knew that that was just stupid to do. Um,

537
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: but it was really hard. And I quit cigarettes twice

538
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: for two years and started up again twice, and I

539
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: was amazed. Um, I knew I could quit, so I

540
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: knew I could start up again. And the kind of

541
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: rationalizations you make when you started up again. I know

542
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: you grew up with brothers. I grew up with sisters,

543
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm the youngest of three, and you know

544
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: I was I wanted to do what their friends were doing.

545
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: So when I was eight, I had my first beer.

546
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 1: When I was ten, I had my first cigarette. When

547
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: I was twelve, I have my first cannabis, and when

548
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: I was fourteen, I have my first psychedelic. So very young, yes, precocious,

549
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: but always taking notes, learn learning, going to the library.

550
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't have the internet back then. You

551
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: want to learn something, you had an encyclopedia, or you

552
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: asked your mom to drive you the library. But I

553
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: would do like any time I had to do a report,

554
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, I would be doing it on the brain

555
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: or on the Smoking thing was the thing you did

556
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: when you were very young. It wasn't like five years

557
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: ago your husband catches you in the bat in the

558
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: in the garage smoking out there in the country. So

559
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: I mean, thank goodness. I quit smoking right before I

560
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: met Jeremy. And it's a good thing I did, because

561
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: I don't think you would have spoken to me if

562
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: I had a cigarette in my hand. So I quit

563
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: when I was twenty nine. But I smoked, you know,

564
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: steady from like fifteen to twenty nine, and not so

565
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: much steady from ten to fifteen. But still I would

566
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: like bumb cigarettes from people. And it was like, look

567
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: at this cute little kid bone a cigarette. That's so cute. Yeah,

568
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: and I've got a handful of friends who are formally

569
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: getting divorced now. Of course, the groundwork was laid prior

570
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: to the COVID, but the COVID has certainly pushed everybody

571
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: over the edge. They filed for divorce, They're getting divorced.

572
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: Not a discussion anymore, They've moved on. I was gonna

573
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: mention before when I said that people are falling back

574
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: on and relying on different things to medicate themselves, like

575
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: food and media and social media and TV watching and pornography.

576
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: I thought, you win a house, and you're just as likely,

577
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: maybe not more likely, but just as likely to go

578
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: in the bathroom with a computer and have online sex,

579
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: you know, and watch porn than you actually have sex

580
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: with your partner in your house because the two of

581
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: you are so sick of each other, like like normally

582
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: there is there is there like a spike in the

583
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: birthrate after a lockdown, And are we not going to

584
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: see the spike in the birthrate from this because everyone's

585
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: in the bathroom doing their own thing. Now, Yeah, well,

586
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: then connecting with that person a couple of things there,

587
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I actually I wrote about masturbating

588
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: to porn quite a bit in moody bitches, because you know,

589
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: when you have an orgasm, you have an increase in

590
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: oxytocin that makes you bond or trust or be open

591
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: to the person who enabled that orgasm. But if you're

592
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: doing that with your laptop, are you bonding with your

593
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: laptop every time? So maybe? But the other thing I

594
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: will say is that I definitely have patients who have

595
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: left their husbands or left their partners during these past

596
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: six months. There's no question this has been like a

597
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: crucible where you're like, oh my gosh, we're in the

598
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: best place we've ever been in or yeah, no, that's over.

599
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: So um. There's not much middle ground here. And when

600
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: this ends, if it ends how it ends, there is

601
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: going to be post traumatic stress disorder. I think that's

602
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: pretty clear. You know, we are currently being chronically stressed,

603
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: and so in theory, once the chronic stress is over,

604
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: then you have the post traumatic stress disorder. You know,

605
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: people who have PTSD. From nine eleven, It was a

606
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: terrible day in New York City, but it was one

607
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: day and then it was over. Psychiatrist Julie Holland. When

608
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: we return Julie Holland talks about why the pandemic is

609
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: particularly challenging for already anxious kids. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

610
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. I wanted to understand why

611
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: someone starts seeing a psychiatrist. So usually if somebody comes

612
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: to me, it's because they're already in therapy and their

613
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: therapist is saying, I think you need to talk about medicines.

614
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: I think medicines would help you. So they've already sort

615
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: of gone past the threshold. It's not just like people

616
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: are coming to me and saying, you know, I feel

617
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: lousy and I don't know why, although I mean back

618
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: in the nineties that was the case. The people were

619
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: just I don't know what's the matter with me, and

620
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: I would have to sort of hold their hand and

621
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: convince them that, you know, maybe they ainty medicine. I

622
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: don't have to do any kind of destigmatizing with medicine.

623
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: Now everybody knows somebody who's taking antidepressants, anti anxiety meds,

624
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: sleeping pills, they're everywhere, right, they're advertised. We you know,

625
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: we're all sort of soaking in it. So I do

626
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: think ever since nine eleven, I think a lot of

627
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: people got permission to medicate themselves, so when they come

628
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: to you, it's beyond talk. So yeah, they're coming because

629
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: they're wondering if they need medicines. They hit a wall,

630
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: they need the medicine to get through that wall. They've

631
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: definitely hit a wall. Or I have people coming to

632
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: me who've been on medicines for years who want to

633
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: get off, and that's something that I help people do.

634
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: And it's really complicated to get off antidepressants when you

635
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: been on them for decades, which unfortunately happens a lot.

636
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: You know, these meds were really only studied to be

637
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: used for six months or maybe twelve months, and in

638
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: some people you have to take them long term. But

639
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: almost everybody, they get on them and they stay on

640
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: them because they do make it easier. You know, what

641
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: I talk about in good chemistry is they don't necessarily

642
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: give you more connections in your life. They just make

643
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: you not mine that you're disconnected. That's my friend. My

644
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: friend said that once. He said, I took drugs because

645
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to care less about my problems, he said,

646
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: And I stopped dating taking drugs because I wanted to

647
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: care again. I wanted to care again. And he said,

648
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: and that that was the mechanism in which I can

649
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: then move forward and start to care about what's happening

650
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: to me, my loved once, my children, right and then

651
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: and if you care, you can make changes. And you know,

652
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: I definitely want to say for the twelve step programs

653
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: that there is a lot of love in those rooms,

654
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of connection in those rooms. And

655
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: you walk in fit's your home meeting, and you're going

656
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: again and again. There is that sense of belonging and

657
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: safety and all of those things feeling connected, feeling safe,

658
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: feeling like you belong to something bigger than you. Those

659
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: are high oxytocin states that get you out of fight

660
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: or flight and into this whole other paradigm for your body,

661
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: which is called the parasympathetic nervous system. Right, So it's

662
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: the opposite of the sympathetic nervous system. And good chemistry

663
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: talks a lot about how to get yourself out of

664
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: fight or flight and over into what you could call

665
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: rest and digest or connect and protect, or tend and befriend.

666
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: But it's it's the things that aren't fighting and running away.

667
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: It's things like staying and negotiating and cooperating and collaborating.

668
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, all those things can't happen when we're in

669
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: fight or flight. And if we're being traumatized, and if

670
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 1: we're afraid of contagion, and if we have a sense

671
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: of powerlessness, we're all going to be in fight or

672
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: flight way too much of the time. Are you concerned?

673
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: I mean, our research such as it is, you know

674
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: my show, are producers that anti anxiety prescriptions for kids

675
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: have on up significantly during the COVID. Does that concern you? Oh? Absolutely? Yeah.

676
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: First of all, you know, over pathologizing women and children

677
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: is really a reflection of the sort of patriarchal structure

678
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: in medicine. But we you know, some people get sort

679
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: of narcissistic about their kids, and their kids are like

680
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: extensions of themselves, you know. And there is a little

681
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: bit of a sort of a niche population in New

682
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: York City where it's almost like you take pride if

683
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: your kid is going to a psychiatrist, or your kids

684
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: in therapy, or your kid has like special classes or something.

685
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: So here's the thing. Are culture is pretty toxic right

686
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: now and very anxiety producing right now, and it is

687
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: normal to be anxious fear of contagion is a real thing,

688
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: and it is normal to be afraid that you're gonna

689
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 1: get sick, or that your parents are gonna get sick,

690
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: or that your grandparents are gonna die. That's all normal anxiety.

691
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: And then it's normal to be anxious if you don't

692
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: know what's going to happen next month or next year,

693
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: or whether you're going to be in class or at home,

694
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: you know, or whether you're gonna be allowed to touch

695
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: your friends or hug your friends or play sports. I mean,

696
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: there's so many reasons we have right now for kids

697
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: being anxious. All the rules have changed, right that everything

698
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: they used to be able to do, they can't do anymore.

699
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: And also wearing masks. And I'm not saying that we

700
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't wear masks. We should all wear masks, but you know,

701
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: it would be great as if we had clear masks

702
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: because interpreting social cues, if we could interpret social shoes.

703
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: You know, now with a mask, you can't tell if

704
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: someone's smirking at you or smiling or yawning, right, and

705
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: so and our brains because back when we were cave people,

706
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: if you got kicked out of the group, you were

707
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: gonna get picked off the herd. You were gonna die,

708
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: or no one was going to share their food with you,

709
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: or no one's going to help you build a structure.

710
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: You know, if you weren't in the club and in

711
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: the tribe and you got separated or ostracized, you were

712
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: gonna die. And so we still, on a very deep level,

713
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: have that kind of reaction. Am I safe? Am I

714
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: in the group? Am I okay? So when you're on

715
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: a zoom meeting and there's like eight people, your brain

716
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: is scanning, scanning all the time to make sure everybody's

717
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: okay with you. And if it's a herky jerky connection

718
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: or you can't see their face or their cameras off,

719
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: that's missing data that your brain is trying to, you know,

720
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: fill in. So that will make us anxious. So these

721
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: kids that are on zoom calls or the kids that

722
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: can play with their friends but they can't really play

723
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: the way they used to play. And don't don't go

724
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: run to Johnny. You know, Johnny's dad works in the

725
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: emergency room. Don't stand back like the rules keep changing,

726
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: the social rules are changing, and they and they can't

727
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: be held and comforted by so many people Now it's

728
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: just maybe your parents and that's it. I have always

729
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: viewed myself that I've typically been for most of my life.

730
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: A person that functions under my trust is yours to lose.

731
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: When I met people, I was very open, regardless of

732
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: what I did for a living. And now with this

733
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: what's going on in the world, as much as anything

734
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: in combination with the COVID, it's made me think, you know,

735
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: my trust is yours to gain. I'm going to go

736
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: out in the world now filled with suspicions. I'm wondering,

737
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: do you find that this suspicion, this neurosis about going

738
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: back out into the world. Are we going to go

739
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: back into the world and everyone's going to be different. Well,

740
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: so there's a few things that are making us suspicious.

741
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: We're worried about somebody getting us sick, and we're worried

742
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 1: about our democracy crumbling and that people around us don't

743
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: get it or they're so misinformed that they're never going

744
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: to get it. Yeah, it's all completely terrifying. So look,

745
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: you know, the the idea with oxytocin is if somebody

746
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: makes you trust them, then you are more open. You

747
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: have more oxytocin you become more trusting. They feel that

748
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: you're becoming more trusting, they start to have more oxytocin

749
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: and its cycles upward from that, you know, more eye

750
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: contact if you could hold them or like a really

751
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: great but but is everybody get to turn the oxytocin

752
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: spick it off when they go out? It has been

753
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: turned off? First of all, you only have oxytocin if

754
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: you're in that parasympathetic state. We're calm, right, so it

755
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: has been turned if you know, here's the analogy I

756
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: give of. You know, when you're in fight or flight,

757
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: which we all are now, right, if your kitchens on fire,

758
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: you don't pick up the phone if it's ringing, or

759
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: make a call, or you know you're that a fire

760
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: and like where's the fire extinguisher? Or have to run

761
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: out of the house. You don't have any social skills.

762
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: You're not. There's no niceness there. So the more we're

763
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: in fight or flight and the more we're in the

764
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: sympathetic mode, the lousier are social skills are, the less

765
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: we trust, the less oxytocin we have. You know, you

766
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: don't really have oxytocin when you're in fight or flight.

767
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: You have adrenaline and cortisol. And this is why we

768
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: can't sleep. You know, we're biting our nails, we're trying

769
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: to soothe ourselves orally, you've got this fat around your stomach.

770
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: It's because we're in fight or flight. It deranges your metabolism.

771
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: It makes it very hard to sleep, you don't digest

772
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: your food. Well, all the things that happen in parasympathetic

773
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 1: where you can rest and digest and you can have

774
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: sex and you can be social, none of those things

775
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: happen when we're in fight or flight. Like for me,

776
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: my fear this is so antathetical to my nature. But

777
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: my fear is I'm gonna go out into the world

778
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: with with this idea of like the less people in

779
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: my life now the better people are the problem. And

780
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 1: I need people in my life on an as needed basis.

781
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: Everyone who's in my life, why are you in my life?

782
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: And if I don't have a really good reason, it's

783
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: it's literally like we're all gonna on an emotional level,

784
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: we're gonna go in and we're all going to clean

785
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: out the closet now right, Well, it's like does this

786
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: person spark joy or not? No, they have to go.

787
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 1: So yeah, but that's good. I want to say one

788
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: thing about your on WE at five o'clock in the evening,

789
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: and that is, if you ever have a morning that

790
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: you can get out and go see a sunrise. It

791
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: is the antidote to that on WE that if you

792
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: happen to be around for dawn and sunrise, you will

793
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: have a little more hope. Um, and you know, don't

794
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: bring your phone, don't don't like no news, have like

795
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: an hour of nature, you know. No, I turned my

796
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: phone off a lot. I've been doing much better with

797
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: my phone. Well, listen, I think, I think if you

798
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: read me correctly, I'm not quite sure, but you are

799
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: a professional listener. What I want is I want to

800
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: take some pharmaceuticals with you, and we're going to paddle

801
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: out into the mist together. We're gonna just open ourselves

802
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: up to whatever the universe is telling us. I mean,

803
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm being silly, but it's like, well, it's soothing though.

804
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: It's like hydrotherapy, you know, just listening. You know, first

805
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: of all, even just the salt air, even just smelling

806
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: the salt there is good for your brain. Thank you

807
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: so much for doing this with us. Thank you so much,

808
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: absolutely my pleasure. Anytime you know you need to talk

809
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: to a shrink, you come call me. I'm gonna get

810
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: in touch with you, okay it' Psychiatrist Julie Holland has

811
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: a private practice in New York City. I'm out like Baldwin.

812
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by my Heart Radio.

813
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and Zach McNeice.

814
00:41:49,360 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening all