1 00:00:37,724 --> 00:00:40,164 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, what's up? It's me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome 2 00:00:40,204 --> 00:00:42,644 Speaker 1: to Who's With Me, the podcast hosted by me, W. 3 00:00:42,664 --> 00:00:47,693 Speaker 1: Kamau Bell. Today is episode 19. I'm talking to my friend, Bowen. 4 00:00:49,014 --> 00:00:51,593 Speaker 1: We'll talk about him in a little bit. First of all, 5 00:00:52,434 --> 00:00:55,094 Speaker 1: just a reminder, this podcast, Who's With Me, is based 6 00:00:55,144 --> 00:00:57,604 Speaker 1: on my sub stack, Who's With Me. Please sign up 7 00:00:57,644 --> 00:00:59,484 Speaker 1: for my sub stack right now. It's the best way 8 00:00:59,504 --> 00:01:01,824 Speaker 1: to stay in contact with me. Although I'm happy that 9 00:01:01,844 --> 00:01:04,644 Speaker 1: you've joined me wherever you have found the podcast. On Substack, 10 00:01:04,664 --> 00:01:06,904 Speaker 1: you'll really be able to stay in direct contact with me. 11 00:01:07,124 --> 00:01:09,074 Speaker 1: And if you pay for my Substack, you can talk 12 00:01:09,114 --> 00:01:14,354 Speaker 1: to me. Because that's how capitalism works. Stand-up dates. This weekend, 13 00:01:14,753 --> 00:01:18,273 Speaker 1: finally that date is coming. Stanford, Connecticut, September 25th and 26th. 14 00:01:18,894 --> 00:01:20,594 Speaker 1: Close enough to New York City that you can make 15 00:01:20,614 --> 00:01:22,694 Speaker 1: the trip if you're in New York City. Happy to 16 00:01:22,753 --> 00:01:26,264 Speaker 1: see you. Four shows. Tickets still available. And then I'll 17 00:01:26,304 --> 00:01:30,103 Speaker 1: be at Stanford University on October 1st. Bellingham, Washington, February 18 00:01:30,163 --> 00:01:32,784 Speaker 1: 20th of next year, if next year is a thing 19 00:01:32,804 --> 00:01:36,613 Speaker 1: that happens. Time will tell. Also, again, pre-order my debut 20 00:01:36,644 --> 00:01:39,014 Speaker 1: children's book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. I wrote with my 21 00:01:39,054 --> 00:01:41,474 Speaker 1: friend Adam Mansback. If you go to Talk Shop Live 22 00:01:41,514 --> 00:01:43,353 Speaker 1: and order it, you get a signed copy. You get 23 00:01:43,374 --> 00:01:45,374 Speaker 1: an autographed copy if you order from Talk Shop Live. 24 00:01:45,394 --> 00:01:49,474 Speaker 1: We'll put the links below. Book comes out October 27th. 25 00:01:49,633 --> 00:01:54,704 Speaker 1: So that's coming up, everybody. What's going on this week? Oh, everything. 26 00:01:54,964 --> 00:01:57,904 Speaker 1: So last week on Substack, the story that had captured 27 00:01:58,454 --> 00:02:02,614 Speaker 1: America's attention and even the UK's attention and Ireland's attention 28 00:02:03,854 --> 00:02:07,493 Speaker 1: and Palestinians' attention and Jewish people's attention. I guess the 29 00:02:07,514 --> 00:02:12,974 Speaker 1: world's attention in some sense. The Macklemore-Ed Sheeran story. So 30 00:02:13,474 --> 00:02:16,014 Speaker 1: I wrote in my sub stack basically what I said 31 00:02:16,074 --> 00:02:20,154 Speaker 1: was Macklemore stood up to billionaires while Ed Sheeran stood 32 00:02:20,194 --> 00:02:22,864 Speaker 1: down to billionaires. You know the story by now. You've 33 00:02:22,924 --> 00:02:25,323 Speaker 1: heard it. But it just keeps moving. Last week, all 34 00:02:25,344 --> 00:02:27,064 Speaker 1: I was really writing about is the fact that we 35 00:02:27,124 --> 00:02:31,364 Speaker 1: can't let billionaires determine what free speech is. And Macklemore 36 00:02:31,383 --> 00:02:34,004 Speaker 1: is sort of a complicated figure. Whenever you're a white 37 00:02:34,103 --> 00:02:36,194 Speaker 1: rapper and you're not named Eminem, even Eminem is a 38 00:02:36,214 --> 00:02:39,474 Speaker 1: complicated figure, but every other white rapper is just always like, 39 00:02:39,953 --> 00:02:42,994 Speaker 1: but it just keeps moving. So the thing that has 40 00:02:43,013 --> 00:02:45,254 Speaker 1: come out of it is that Ed Sheeran is sort 41 00:02:45,274 --> 00:02:47,393 Speaker 1: of playing the babe in the woods role of like, 42 00:02:47,554 --> 00:02:51,713 Speaker 1: I'm apolitical. Let's be clear. There's no such thing as apolitical. 43 00:02:52,534 --> 00:02:54,374 Speaker 1: I don't even care that it's in the dictionary. People 44 00:02:54,434 --> 00:02:57,074 Speaker 1: are like, there is, I can look. Just because it's 45 00:02:57,094 --> 00:02:59,504 Speaker 1: in the dictionary doesn't mean it's real. Unicorn is a 46 00:02:59,524 --> 00:03:02,004 Speaker 1: word that is also in the dictionary. It is not real. 47 00:03:02,103 --> 00:03:03,983 Speaker 1: You're saying, I don't want to get involved. You're saying, 48 00:03:04,184 --> 00:03:07,084 Speaker 1: I side with whoever is in charge. That's just the 49 00:03:07,103 --> 00:03:08,404 Speaker 1: way it is. And I think that's important to note 50 00:03:08,424 --> 00:03:10,724 Speaker 1: as we get ready for the midterms. Let's let all 51 00:03:10,763 --> 00:03:13,654 Speaker 1: this be. Make sure you're ready to vote in the 52 00:03:13,694 --> 00:03:16,594 Speaker 1: midterms coming up. Many places you can vote now. I 53 00:03:16,614 --> 00:03:18,774 Speaker 1: would say go to vote.org to check your voter status. 54 00:03:18,874 --> 00:03:21,094 Speaker 1: Also come with a voting plan. Also come with a 55 00:03:21,114 --> 00:03:26,314 Speaker 1: plan to defeat fascism And so this past weekend, also, 56 00:03:26,453 --> 00:03:28,233 Speaker 1: as many of you know, all of his openers left 57 00:03:28,254 --> 00:03:31,474 Speaker 1: the tour, including his backing band, who was Irish backing band, 58 00:03:31,494 --> 00:03:33,154 Speaker 1: left the tour. I don't know if you know this 59 00:03:33,174 --> 00:03:38,164 Speaker 1: about Irish people, but they don't mess around. And Irish people, 60 00:03:38,524 --> 00:03:41,604 Speaker 1: because of their history, are very clear about oppression for 61 00:03:41,624 --> 00:03:44,544 Speaker 1: the most part. And so Ireland, as a country, has 62 00:03:44,584 --> 00:03:48,344 Speaker 1: been pro-Palestinian liberation for a long time. And so they're 63 00:03:48,364 --> 00:03:51,154 Speaker 1: really mad, being like, why aren't you with us? So 64 00:03:51,194 --> 00:03:55,023 Speaker 1: apparently he's really... Whatever the blues Ed Sheeran is getting 65 00:03:55,154 --> 00:03:59,094 Speaker 1: here in America, it's really coming bad from the UK 66 00:03:59,154 --> 00:04:02,194 Speaker 1: and especially from Ireland, which I also know is its 67 00:04:02,294 --> 00:04:07,174 Speaker 1: own separate. Ireland is its own country. I think that 68 00:04:07,514 --> 00:04:11,344 Speaker 1: we have to understand that he's getting it from all sides. 69 00:04:11,384 --> 00:04:13,424 Speaker 1: And so he did the tour. Apparently he did a 70 00:04:13,444 --> 00:04:18,364 Speaker 1: show by himself at his most recent concert, and he 71 00:04:18,544 --> 00:04:22,744 Speaker 1: opened with sort of a very, It felt like a 72 00:04:22,784 --> 00:04:26,373 Speaker 1: very managed sort of a statement. It didn't feel like 73 00:04:26,404 --> 00:04:27,554 Speaker 1: it was from the heart. Also, you could see he 74 00:04:27,594 --> 00:04:31,134 Speaker 1: was reading it off of a teleprompter, which is fine. 75 00:04:31,174 --> 00:04:33,414 Speaker 1: You can read off teleprompters, I understand. But it just 76 00:04:33,494 --> 00:04:35,614 Speaker 1: made it not feel very heartfelt. And a lot of 77 00:04:35,634 --> 00:04:37,914 Speaker 1: people are tearing that apart. It felt like a combination 78 00:04:37,974 --> 00:04:40,514 Speaker 1: of a publicist and chat GPT coming together to write 79 00:04:40,534 --> 00:04:42,494 Speaker 1: that statement. And at the end of the concert, which 80 00:04:42,534 --> 00:04:44,314 Speaker 1: I saw this has been covered less, he actually then 81 00:04:44,334 --> 00:04:46,224 Speaker 1: at the end of the concert apologized to his audience 82 00:04:46,324 --> 00:04:48,524 Speaker 1: for the apology up front. Like he's like, I'm sorry 83 00:04:48,544 --> 00:04:49,764 Speaker 1: I had to bring that up. I know you just 84 00:04:49,784 --> 00:04:51,434 Speaker 1: want to come here and hear me sing. So it's 85 00:04:51,444 --> 00:04:54,494 Speaker 1: just weird also like apologizing for the apology. And again, 86 00:04:54,574 --> 00:04:56,854 Speaker 1: if you think he's getting the blues here in this country, 87 00:04:57,154 --> 00:04:59,694 Speaker 1: just go on YouTube and look up like, you know, 88 00:04:59,974 --> 00:05:04,544 Speaker 1: Irish Ed Sheeran response. You will see some Irish people 89 00:05:04,604 --> 00:05:09,364 Speaker 1: giving Ed Sheeran the blues. And I wrote this piece 90 00:05:09,404 --> 00:05:12,084 Speaker 1: last week and I got some feedback from Jewish people 91 00:05:12,124 --> 00:05:14,024 Speaker 1: who are in my life and also people who support 92 00:05:14,064 --> 00:05:19,234 Speaker 1: my sub stack who struggle with this issue. And of course, 93 00:05:19,254 --> 00:05:21,224 Speaker 1: and I have Jewish people in my life who, don't 94 00:05:21,284 --> 00:05:24,724 Speaker 1: struggle with it, who are anti-Zionist, who can say it's 95 00:05:24,764 --> 00:05:27,754 Speaker 1: a genocide in Palestine, thinking about NATO Green, Adam Mansbach, 96 00:05:27,764 --> 00:05:30,174 Speaker 1: who wrote a book with me, The Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. 97 00:05:30,214 --> 00:05:32,014 Speaker 1: You'll be hearing more about us soon on this book 98 00:05:32,034 --> 00:05:34,334 Speaker 1: tour that we are putting together. And that's who I 99 00:05:34,354 --> 00:05:36,034 Speaker 1: have talked to a lot. I've also learned a lot 100 00:05:36,374 --> 00:05:39,954 Speaker 1: from people online, like Linda Sarsour, who I know a 101 00:05:39,994 --> 00:05:43,334 Speaker 1: little bit, Janan Matari, who I just know from being online, 102 00:05:43,614 --> 00:05:47,294 Speaker 1: who's a very fervent and strong voice for Palestinian liberation. 103 00:05:47,914 --> 00:05:51,294 Speaker 1: And I would encourage people to go check out you know, 104 00:05:51,914 --> 00:05:55,613 Speaker 1: Jewish people who are anti-Zionist, but also check out Palestinians 105 00:05:55,654 --> 00:05:58,454 Speaker 1: who have voices here just to hear, even if you're 106 00:05:58,514 --> 00:06:00,224 Speaker 1: threatened by some of it, just to sort of take 107 00:06:00,244 --> 00:06:03,764 Speaker 1: it in to go, this is a different perspective that 108 00:06:03,804 --> 00:06:05,684 Speaker 1: I need to hear. So I'm not just relying on 109 00:06:05,764 --> 00:06:08,164 Speaker 1: what I already know. That's all I would encourage. And 110 00:06:08,724 --> 00:06:11,144 Speaker 1: some Jewish people I've talked to find the phrase free 111 00:06:11,204 --> 00:06:14,734 Speaker 1: Palestine threatening because they're afraid of what comes, I guess, 112 00:06:14,794 --> 00:06:17,454 Speaker 1: the how Palestine is going to get freed, like what 113 00:06:17,514 --> 00:06:21,714 Speaker 1: that will involve. And let me say this. I understand 114 00:06:22,134 --> 00:06:24,984 Speaker 1: you can feel however you want to feel about anything. 115 00:06:25,084 --> 00:06:27,044 Speaker 1: I get that. You can be threatened by anything. I 116 00:06:27,624 --> 00:06:30,144 Speaker 1: think when I hear that people are afraid of the 117 00:06:30,204 --> 00:06:32,744 Speaker 1: phrase free Palestine, what it reminds me of is as 118 00:06:32,784 --> 00:06:36,914 Speaker 1: a black person, every phrase we've come up with to say, America, 119 00:06:36,964 --> 00:06:38,934 Speaker 1: treat us with our respect and give us our dignity. 120 00:06:39,494 --> 00:06:43,654 Speaker 1: There's been some percentage of white Americans like that's too far, 121 00:06:44,074 --> 00:06:48,534 Speaker 1: whether it's a black power. even just the phrase black power, 122 00:06:48,754 --> 00:06:51,654 Speaker 1: people call black supremacy, say it loud. I'm black and 123 00:06:51,694 --> 00:06:54,634 Speaker 1: I'm proud. You know, like that has the people think 124 00:06:54,674 --> 00:06:57,054 Speaker 1: that sounds like black supremacy, which there's no such thing 125 00:06:57,074 --> 00:07:00,494 Speaker 1: as black supremacy. Like it's just black pride. You know, 126 00:07:00,534 --> 00:07:03,274 Speaker 1: even the phrase black pride, my favorite band living color 127 00:07:03,294 --> 00:07:06,194 Speaker 1: has a song called pride that has a, uh, you know, 128 00:07:06,234 --> 00:07:09,134 Speaker 1: that talks, that addresses this. And then down to like 129 00:07:09,184 --> 00:07:11,204 Speaker 1: black people saying black lives matter, which was a phrase 130 00:07:11,224 --> 00:07:13,664 Speaker 1: that was started by, uh, who was, was one of 131 00:07:13,684 --> 00:07:16,834 Speaker 1: the people who started that phrase with my friend Alicia Garza. Um, 132 00:07:17,974 --> 00:07:23,054 Speaker 1: Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi, that phrase, Black Lives Matter, 133 00:07:23,154 --> 00:07:24,944 Speaker 1: very quickly some white people were like, what are you saying, 134 00:07:24,984 --> 00:07:27,484 Speaker 1: white lives don't matter? So there becomes a thing that happens, 135 00:07:27,644 --> 00:07:29,324 Speaker 1: I will just speak from the black perspective, where we're like, 136 00:07:29,484 --> 00:07:32,244 Speaker 1: what is the thing we can say that you don't 137 00:07:32,324 --> 00:07:36,584 Speaker 1: find threatening that also gets us to our citizenship and 138 00:07:36,684 --> 00:07:40,014 Speaker 1: rights as humans in this country? Also, I don't just 139 00:07:40,034 --> 00:07:42,914 Speaker 1: want a catchphrase, I want liberation, I want freedom, I 140 00:07:42,974 --> 00:07:45,594 Speaker 1: want rights and privileges as a human. And I think 141 00:07:45,734 --> 00:07:49,414 Speaker 1: that's 142 00:07:49,474 --> 00:07:52,134 Speaker 1: 143 00:07:52,174 --> 00:07:56,254 Speaker 1: 144 00:07:56,314 --> 00:07:59,424 Speaker 1: 145 00:07:59,944 --> 00:08:02,584 Speaker 1: 146 00:08:02,964 --> 00:08:05,104 Speaker 1: 147 00:08:05,204 --> 00:08:07,804 Speaker 1: I 148 00:08:07,824 --> 00:08:11,654 Speaker 1: think that's all this is about. But I do understand, 149 00:08:11,834 --> 00:08:14,154 Speaker 1: as I've heard from Jewish people in my life and 150 00:08:14,174 --> 00:08:18,634 Speaker 1: Jewish people online, that they get a lot of fear because, yes, 151 00:08:18,814 --> 00:08:21,394 Speaker 1: Jewish people certainly have been an oppressed group in the 152 00:08:21,434 --> 00:08:23,414 Speaker 1: history of the world. So I'm not in any way 153 00:08:23,454 --> 00:08:30,294 Speaker 1: arguing with that. So stop anti-Semitism, full stop. Also, Palestinian freedom. 154 00:08:31,514 --> 00:08:33,214 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to change it from free Palestine. I'm 155 00:08:33,234 --> 00:08:37,304 Speaker 1: just trying to say, let's give Palestinians their liberation and 156 00:08:37,324 --> 00:08:41,883 Speaker 1: their freedom. And I know we can have no anti-Semitism 157 00:08:42,424 --> 00:08:45,663 Speaker 1: and Palestinian liberation in the same world. Just like I 158 00:08:45,723 --> 00:08:51,004 Speaker 1: know we can have black power, black pride, black lives 159 00:08:51,044 --> 00:08:53,923 Speaker 1: can matter and white lives can continue to matter at 160 00:08:53,963 --> 00:08:56,684 Speaker 1: the same time. And I'm going to take it back 161 00:08:56,723 --> 00:09:01,273 Speaker 1: to the black community. So last week, Converse released an ad. 162 00:09:01,314 --> 00:09:02,434 Speaker 1: And when I first saw it online, I was like, 163 00:09:02,514 --> 00:09:05,293 Speaker 1: I don't even understand that. Is this real? That, that 164 00:09:05,333 --> 00:09:08,914 Speaker 1: to many eyes and especially black eyes, looks like it's 165 00:09:08,953 --> 00:09:12,014 Speaker 1: an allusion to like the KKK and lynching. And when 166 00:09:12,054 --> 00:09:13,664 Speaker 1: I first saw it, and if you haven't seen it, 167 00:09:13,713 --> 00:09:14,973 Speaker 1: just pull it up. And I know I've sort of, 168 00:09:14,973 --> 00:09:17,574 Speaker 1: I've sort of, uh, colored the ad for, you know, 169 00:09:17,613 --> 00:09:19,633 Speaker 1: pun intended. But when I first saw it, I was like, 170 00:09:20,294 --> 00:09:22,394 Speaker 1: this can't be real. I'd like, it just, I didn't 171 00:09:22,414 --> 00:09:24,353 Speaker 1: even look at it and go, cause I saw something 172 00:09:24,373 --> 00:09:26,314 Speaker 1: that said, this is a racist ad. And I didn't 173 00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:28,093 Speaker 1: even have time to even decide if it was racist ad. 174 00:09:28,134 --> 00:09:30,984 Speaker 1: Cause I was just physically just like repelled by it. 175 00:09:31,473 --> 00:09:32,933 Speaker 1: By the way, the ad is laid out. There's a 176 00:09:33,074 --> 00:09:36,233 Speaker 1: white triangle that is made of cloth that sort of 177 00:09:36,333 --> 00:09:39,524 Speaker 1: looks reminiscent of a, clan hood and then there's next 178 00:09:39,564 --> 00:09:44,143 Speaker 1: to that uh clan hood reminiscence there's two converse shoes 179 00:09:44,223 --> 00:09:46,123 Speaker 1: that look like they're just dangling in space because the 180 00:09:46,164 --> 00:09:48,243 Speaker 1: way the ad is lit and it just looks like 181 00:09:48,394 --> 00:09:51,493 Speaker 1: feet next to a clan hood and i know that 182 00:09:51,514 --> 00:09:53,434 Speaker 1: it is not that apparently and i had to really 183 00:09:53,774 --> 00:09:55,934 Speaker 1: dig to find out what is this it's apparently a 184 00:09:55,993 --> 00:09:59,293 Speaker 1: woman in a white in a white skirt and she's 185 00:09:59,394 --> 00:10:01,133 Speaker 1: holding the converse but it is lit in such a 186 00:10:01,174 --> 00:10:03,444 Speaker 1: way in the ways i've seen it where it does 187 00:10:03,444 --> 00:10:05,373 Speaker 1: not it It struck me as as a, like an 188 00:10:05,554 --> 00:10:08,733 Speaker 1: artful lynching photo, like, like an art piece on lynching 189 00:10:09,634 --> 00:10:12,353 Speaker 1: and Converse has since apologized. But a lot of people 190 00:10:13,233 --> 00:10:15,494 Speaker 1: have said that doesn't look like a lynching photo. And 191 00:10:15,544 --> 00:10:19,603 Speaker 1: I get, it's like a Rorschach test or, or like a, like, 192 00:10:19,703 --> 00:10:21,634 Speaker 1: what do you see here? Like that? There's that, uh, 193 00:10:21,784 --> 00:10:23,843 Speaker 1: optical illusion where if you look at it this way, 194 00:10:23,863 --> 00:10:25,163 Speaker 1: it looks like an old lady. If you look at 195 00:10:25,184 --> 00:10:26,944 Speaker 1: it this way, it looks like a young woman. And 196 00:10:26,983 --> 00:10:29,143 Speaker 1: the idea being that like, depending on how you look 197 00:10:29,223 --> 00:10:31,414 Speaker 1: at it, You see something different. But all of how 198 00:10:31,434 --> 00:10:34,353 Speaker 1: you're looking at it is your history of humanity being informed. 199 00:10:34,924 --> 00:10:36,583 Speaker 1: And for black people right now, I think we see 200 00:10:36,644 --> 00:10:39,384 Speaker 1: lynching specifically. Maybe we'd see it at any point in time. 201 00:10:39,644 --> 00:10:43,444 Speaker 1: But right now, in 2026, there have been 10 black 202 00:10:43,824 --> 00:10:47,524 Speaker 1: people found hanging dead from trees in this year alone. 203 00:10:48,024 --> 00:10:53,034 Speaker 1: Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley joined with 59 other lawmakers and legislatures 204 00:10:53,064 --> 00:10:55,253 Speaker 1: to step forward to say we need to investigate this. 205 00:10:55,694 --> 00:10:58,154 Speaker 1: They want the government to investigate why black people are 206 00:10:58,213 --> 00:11:02,064 Speaker 1: ending up hanging from trees. Because this country has a 207 00:11:02,103 --> 00:11:04,523 Speaker 1: history of lynching black people, full stop. And it never 208 00:11:04,564 --> 00:11:06,824 Speaker 1: really stopped. It just was like, we don't want to 209 00:11:06,843 --> 00:11:09,143 Speaker 1: get back to where it's a common occurrence. So right now, 210 00:11:09,184 --> 00:11:10,944 Speaker 1: a lot of black people are thinking about lynching in 211 00:11:10,973 --> 00:11:12,933 Speaker 1: a way we haven't thought about as far as an 212 00:11:13,113 --> 00:11:16,034 Speaker 1: active thing that's happening now. And then this thing comes 213 00:11:16,093 --> 00:11:19,174 Speaker 1: out from Converse. And it sparks so many questions. First 214 00:11:20,014 --> 00:11:22,213 Speaker 1: of all, apparently a black guy was in charge or 215 00:11:22,274 --> 00:11:24,853 Speaker 1: was a part of this campaign. But this is why 216 00:11:24,894 --> 00:11:27,703 Speaker 1: DEI needs to be back. It's not about having one 217 00:11:27,743 --> 00:11:30,203 Speaker 1: black person there to sort of weigh in on black issues. 218 00:11:30,404 --> 00:11:32,763 Speaker 1: It's about having a bunch of different black people in 219 00:11:32,804 --> 00:11:34,624 Speaker 1: positions of power to weigh in. So they can all 220 00:11:34,644 --> 00:11:37,003 Speaker 1: have a black conversation about like, this seems like, because 221 00:11:37,024 --> 00:11:38,743 Speaker 1: I'm sure they had a lot of black people in 222 00:11:38,764 --> 00:11:40,343 Speaker 1: position of power. There'd been at least one who said, 223 00:11:40,884 --> 00:11:42,684 Speaker 1: can I pull your coat for a second? Because this 224 00:11:42,723 --> 00:11:47,623 Speaker 1: is what I see. We're in dire times. I think 225 00:11:48,004 --> 00:11:52,963 Speaker 1: in some sense, you know, when Macklemore steps on stage 226 00:11:53,014 --> 00:11:57,324 Speaker 1: and says, Free Palestine, and I love you, my Jewish 227 00:11:57,343 --> 00:11:59,824 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, a lot of how that lands depends 228 00:11:59,983 --> 00:12:04,953 Speaker 1: on where you're coming to this issue. And so I 229 00:12:05,453 --> 00:12:07,613 Speaker 1: think when I see some people say the photo of 230 00:12:07,674 --> 00:12:10,254 Speaker 1: black people, the converse ad doesn't look like lynching. It's like, 231 00:12:10,274 --> 00:12:12,333 Speaker 1: because you're not coming to this in the same way 232 00:12:12,353 --> 00:12:14,893 Speaker 1: that many of us are where I think about my 233 00:12:14,973 --> 00:12:18,294 Speaker 1: black life every day. And how I have to avoid 234 00:12:18,333 --> 00:12:21,853 Speaker 1: situations or protect myself or always be aware that anything 235 00:12:21,873 --> 00:12:23,934 Speaker 1: could pop off at any time. And I'm not saying 236 00:12:23,973 --> 00:12:25,973 Speaker 1: because where I live is dangerous. I'm saying because I 237 00:12:26,014 --> 00:12:29,233 Speaker 1: live in America and America is dangerous. Let's just take 238 00:12:29,264 --> 00:12:34,704 Speaker 1: a deep breath. Because I really want you to enjoy 239 00:12:34,723 --> 00:12:39,623 Speaker 1: this conversation with my guest, Bao Nguyen. Bao is a 240 00:12:39,684 --> 00:12:42,484 Speaker 1: great person. I actually met him during the lead up 241 00:12:42,583 --> 00:12:45,213 Speaker 1: to The first doc of his I'd ever seen. It 242 00:12:45,333 --> 00:12:47,453 Speaker 1: was not his first documentary, but the first doc I saw. 243 00:12:48,304 --> 00:12:50,944 Speaker 1: During the days of the pandemic, when the Bruce Lee 244 00:12:50,963 --> 00:12:54,843 Speaker 1: doc came out, Bewater, Bao directed that. And I ended 245 00:12:54,904 --> 00:12:56,583 Speaker 1: up being a part of the promotion of that doc, 246 00:12:56,623 --> 00:12:58,064 Speaker 1: even though I was not in it, just because, as 247 00:12:58,083 --> 00:13:00,604 Speaker 1: you know from this podcast, I love Bruce Lee. And 248 00:13:00,703 --> 00:13:02,503 Speaker 1: so I was like, I saw the doc and thought 249 00:13:02,524 --> 00:13:03,863 Speaker 1: it was so beautiful. I was like, whatever you need 250 00:13:03,884 --> 00:13:06,163 Speaker 1: me to do, I'll do. We became friends through that. 251 00:13:06,583 --> 00:13:08,103 Speaker 1: And then we would see each other at all sorts 252 00:13:08,154 --> 00:13:12,414 Speaker 1: of different film festivals, Sundance we've hung out. And Then, 253 00:13:12,534 --> 00:13:15,494 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, he dropped The Greatest Night in Pop, 254 00:13:15,613 --> 00:13:17,094 Speaker 1: which I say out of nowhere, we talk about it here, 255 00:13:17,414 --> 00:13:19,194 Speaker 1: which is a documentary about the making of the song 256 00:13:19,233 --> 00:13:21,734 Speaker 1: We Are the World, which is just very totally different, 257 00:13:21,833 --> 00:13:24,474 Speaker 1: both about celebrity, but one is about a lot of celebrities, 258 00:13:24,534 --> 00:13:27,314 Speaker 1: and one is about a celebrity who is, one celebrity 259 00:13:27,333 --> 00:13:30,373 Speaker 1: who's an icon, and also Vows, an Asian American man, 260 00:13:31,353 --> 00:13:32,934 Speaker 1: had feelings about Bruce Lee, and he talks about with 261 00:13:32,973 --> 00:13:34,854 Speaker 1: We Are the World, he didn't even remember We Are 262 00:13:34,873 --> 00:13:36,893 Speaker 1: the World, because he was born, I think, two years 263 00:13:37,034 --> 00:13:41,703 Speaker 1: after it came out. So, there's that. And then, recently, 264 00:13:41,784 --> 00:13:45,564 Speaker 1: Bao has dropped two docs, almost back-to-back, The Stringer on Netflix, 265 00:13:45,603 --> 00:13:48,824 Speaker 1: which is a deep, journalistic, and compelling documentary about one 266 00:13:48,843 --> 00:13:51,164 Speaker 1: of the most famous photos in the history of all time. 267 00:13:51,203 --> 00:13:53,404 Speaker 1: The photo is called The Terror of War, but you 268 00:13:53,444 --> 00:13:56,644 Speaker 1: may know it more commonly by Napalm Girl. It depicts 269 00:13:56,764 --> 00:13:59,624 Speaker 1: a naked nine-year-old Vietnamese girl running away from a napalm 270 00:13:59,644 --> 00:14:04,243 Speaker 1: attack during the Vietnamese War in Vietnam. And this doc 271 00:14:04,304 --> 00:14:07,404 Speaker 1: is about figuring out, is it an investigation into who 272 00:14:07,444 --> 00:14:09,264 Speaker 1: took the photo? Because the person who's credited with taking 273 00:14:09,284 --> 00:14:12,833 Speaker 1: the photo is not necessarily the person who took the photo. 274 00:14:12,973 --> 00:14:15,314 Speaker 1: And so Bao is waiting to the deep end as 275 00:14:15,373 --> 00:14:18,253 Speaker 1: a Vietnamese person to sort of say, I'm going to 276 00:14:18,294 --> 00:14:20,874 Speaker 1: confront a thing that our culture may not want me 277 00:14:20,894 --> 00:14:23,214 Speaker 1: to confront. Um, as far as like, cause the guy 278 00:14:23,234 --> 00:14:25,273 Speaker 1: who took the photo has had a, his whole life 279 00:14:25,334 --> 00:14:27,934 Speaker 1: changed because he was this famous photographer. And yet there might, 280 00:14:28,274 --> 00:14:30,094 Speaker 1: this film is saying, we think somebody else took it 281 00:14:30,134 --> 00:14:33,234 Speaker 1: who did not get the credit they deserve. Um, during 282 00:14:33,254 --> 00:14:35,174 Speaker 1: the podcast, we also talk about his up, one of 283 00:14:35,194 --> 00:14:38,024 Speaker 1: his up and coming projects, which is, an authorized documentary 284 00:14:38,064 --> 00:14:39,624 Speaker 1: about Jimi Hendrix, and I talk about how that makes 285 00:14:39,644 --> 00:14:42,064 Speaker 1: me jealous, but I also love Bowie. He's a great filmmaker. 286 00:14:42,084 --> 00:14:44,054 Speaker 1: He's going to do a great job. And, of course, 287 00:14:44,094 --> 00:14:48,013 Speaker 1: we talk about his latest documentary on Netflix, BTS, The Return, 288 00:14:48,334 --> 00:14:52,054 Speaker 1: the documentary that covers the return of the globally famous, 289 00:14:52,394 --> 00:14:55,544 Speaker 1: it's funny to describe who BTS is. BTS is probably 290 00:14:55,564 --> 00:14:57,664 Speaker 1: the most famous collection of seven people in the world. 291 00:14:58,244 --> 00:15:00,474 Speaker 1: They are a K-pop band. And they took a break 292 00:15:00,664 --> 00:15:03,143 Speaker 1: while they did military service, and the doc covers their 293 00:15:03,184 --> 00:15:06,883 Speaker 1: return while they record their new album, Ararang, which I'm 294 00:15:06,964 --> 00:15:08,724 Speaker 1: sure I did not say as correctly as I could have. 295 00:15:08,824 --> 00:15:11,044 Speaker 1: But anyway, we have to talk about the pressure of 296 00:15:11,064 --> 00:15:15,044 Speaker 1: being a documentary filmmaker who wades into very sort of 297 00:15:15,104 --> 00:15:18,674 Speaker 1: like complicated subject that people have a lot of intensity 298 00:15:18,684 --> 00:15:20,554 Speaker 1: of feelings about. Think about it. This dude has done 299 00:15:20,634 --> 00:15:25,254 Speaker 1: Bruce Lee, BTS, We Are the World, this famous, one 300 00:15:25,274 --> 00:15:27,314 Speaker 1: of the most famous photos of all time, and he's 301 00:15:27,334 --> 00:15:30,364 Speaker 1: doing Jimi Hendrix. So bow down. is not afraid. He 302 00:15:30,414 --> 00:15:32,494 Speaker 1: just weighs in and is very artful about all of 303 00:15:32,514 --> 00:15:35,974 Speaker 1: his work. So please enjoy my conversation with Bao. Hey, 304 00:15:36,054 --> 00:15:38,094 Speaker 1: thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If 305 00:15:38,134 --> 00:15:41,654 Speaker 1: you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that 306 00:15:41,694 --> 00:15:45,674 Speaker 1: hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, 307 00:15:45,874 --> 00:15:58,414 Speaker 1: hit the hype button. Thank you. Don't give up. How 308 00:15:58,434 --> 00:16:01,153 Speaker 1: you doing, sir? I'm good. So I start every episode 309 00:16:01,194 --> 00:16:03,033 Speaker 1: off by giving people their flowers, because that's a part 310 00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:04,533 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, is that not only do I 311 00:16:04,534 --> 00:16:06,994 Speaker 1: want to have conversations with people I respect, people I admire, 312 00:16:07,254 --> 00:16:10,944 Speaker 1: people I love, and you fight into all those categories. 313 00:16:11,864 --> 00:16:16,964 Speaker 1: And I just find you, especially as we met through Bewater, 314 00:16:17,864 --> 00:16:19,784 Speaker 1: and like, great, I love that film. I love Bruce Lee. 315 00:16:19,804 --> 00:16:21,944 Speaker 1: This guy did a good job. And then I remember 316 00:16:21,984 --> 00:16:26,164 Speaker 1: the day on Instagram when it was announced you were 317 00:16:26,184 --> 00:16:30,174 Speaker 1: doing The Greatest Night in Pop. And I was like, whoa. 318 00:16:30,194 --> 00:16:31,354 Speaker 2: You called me Beyonce. 319 00:16:31,374 --> 00:16:31,874 Speaker 1: Did I? 320 00:16:31,894 --> 00:16:36,274 Speaker 2: You're like, I'm just dropping like lemonade and Renaissance out 321 00:16:36,314 --> 00:16:36,734 Speaker 2: of nowhere. 322 00:16:36,974 --> 00:16:38,274 Speaker 1: That's what it was. Cause it was like, it was, 323 00:16:38,294 --> 00:16:40,534 Speaker 1: there was no sort of like, he's working on this. 324 00:16:40,914 --> 00:16:43,114 Speaker 1: There's he's, I didn't know. And we're not, you know, 325 00:16:43,154 --> 00:16:44,884 Speaker 1: I didn't know. And so suddenly it was like, it's 326 00:16:44,924 --> 00:16:48,124 Speaker 1: coming out, whatever it was soon. It's a, and then 327 00:16:48,224 --> 00:16:51,644 Speaker 1: I went to the premiere. My date was Tom Morello, 328 00:16:51,664 --> 00:16:53,364 Speaker 1: which was funny. Cause I don't even know Tom Morello 329 00:16:53,384 --> 00:16:54,724 Speaker 1: that well, but I just thought he seems like he'd 330 00:16:54,744 --> 00:16:55,763 Speaker 1: like to go to this. And so. 331 00:16:56,294 --> 00:16:59,174 Speaker 2: What was his thoughts on the film? I don't feel 332 00:16:59,194 --> 00:17:01,034 Speaker 2: like Tom Morello would have been a huge fan of 333 00:17:01,054 --> 00:17:01,994 Speaker 2: that song. 334 00:17:02,334 --> 00:17:05,013 Speaker 1: No, he's a huge fan of music. He's one of 335 00:17:05,054 --> 00:17:08,734 Speaker 1: those dudes who just loves music, and so absolutely. I 336 00:17:08,764 --> 00:17:11,264 Speaker 1: just remember we both walked out enjoying it. I can't 337 00:17:11,284 --> 00:17:13,584 Speaker 1: give you a quote for the poster, but we both walked. 338 00:17:13,604 --> 00:17:15,184 Speaker 1: We went and had a drink afterwards, and we talked 339 00:17:15,204 --> 00:17:16,784 Speaker 1: about it a lot. I think he's a big fan 340 00:17:16,824 --> 00:17:19,304 Speaker 1: of the history of music, and he's a big fan 341 00:17:19,324 --> 00:17:22,084 Speaker 1: of musicians caring. We are the world as musicians caring. 342 00:17:22,244 --> 00:17:24,134 Speaker 1: Of course, I feel like I remember a lot of 343 00:17:24,154 --> 00:17:26,094 Speaker 1: laughter at the Bob Dylan part. I mean, you, you know, 344 00:17:26,194 --> 00:17:28,074 Speaker 1: so yeah, we'll talk about that in a second, but like, 345 00:17:28,554 --> 00:17:32,094 Speaker 1: so then that happened. And then I know I found 346 00:17:32,234 --> 00:17:33,434 Speaker 1: out that it was not, you were working on the 347 00:17:33,474 --> 00:17:36,344 Speaker 1: Jimi Hendrix documentary, which was the first time I was 348 00:17:36,364 --> 00:17:39,844 Speaker 1: ever mad at you. That was the first time I 349 00:17:39,844 --> 00:17:41,844 Speaker 1: ever felt like, oh, I didn't even know that was 350 00:17:41,924 --> 00:17:43,664 Speaker 1: a thing that was out there. So, but also like 351 00:17:43,704 --> 00:17:47,024 Speaker 1: excited for you, like 5% mad, 95% excited. Cause I 352 00:17:47,024 --> 00:17:49,524 Speaker 1: was like, he's, he's, I just think you're a great filmmaker. 353 00:17:49,544 --> 00:17:51,024 Speaker 1: And so I was happy to know that you had it. 354 00:17:51,024 --> 00:17:52,144 Speaker 1: I was happy to know that documentary was in the 355 00:17:52,184 --> 00:17:54,934 Speaker 1: hands of a good person. And then I think you're 356 00:17:54,954 --> 00:17:58,564 Speaker 1: working on that. And then suddenly the stringer, again, drops 357 00:17:58,584 --> 00:18:00,244 Speaker 1: like a Beyonce album, as far as I could tell, 358 00:18:00,644 --> 00:18:07,344 Speaker 1: which is this incredible, hardcore, journalistic expose about the most 359 00:18:07,384 --> 00:18:10,604 Speaker 1: famous photo out of the Vietnam War. What's the name 360 00:18:10,624 --> 00:18:11,044 Speaker 1: of the photo? 361 00:18:12,044 --> 00:18:14,764 Speaker 2: Well, the technical name is Terror of War, but most 362 00:18:14,784 --> 00:18:16,544 Speaker 2: people know it as a Napalm Girl photograph. 363 00:18:16,564 --> 00:18:18,324 Speaker 1: One of the most famous photos in history, but certainly 364 00:18:18,344 --> 00:18:20,644 Speaker 1: the most famous photo from the Vietnam War. And a 365 00:18:20,744 --> 00:18:25,974 Speaker 1: very rigorous... uh, film about who took that photo. And 366 00:18:26,134 --> 00:18:28,814 Speaker 1: as a member of the Vietnamese diaspora, you're sort of 367 00:18:28,874 --> 00:18:30,404 Speaker 1: saying this thing that we think is true may not 368 00:18:30,444 --> 00:18:33,344 Speaker 1: be true. Um, so you have to sort of take 369 00:18:33,364 --> 00:18:36,023 Speaker 1: a chance there. And I'm like, man, that it was 370 00:18:36,084 --> 00:18:40,064 Speaker 1: super intense, super rigorous, felt like in the best way possible, 371 00:18:40,144 --> 00:18:44,124 Speaker 1: like a procedural thriller. That was a documentary. Like it 372 00:18:44,144 --> 00:18:45,564 Speaker 1: felt like it could have been George Clooney in the 373 00:18:45,604 --> 00:18:47,604 Speaker 1: middle of it. Like it was very directed in a 374 00:18:47,644 --> 00:18:51,254 Speaker 1: very narrative driven way. And then I'm like, good for 375 00:18:51,294 --> 00:18:53,644 Speaker 1: him for doing that. And then you just drop the 376 00:18:54,104 --> 00:18:56,824 Speaker 1: BTS The Return. So now I'm like, okay, so this 377 00:18:56,844 --> 00:18:59,024 Speaker 1: dude is doing multiple things at once all the time. 378 00:18:59,574 --> 00:19:02,514 Speaker 1: And I get accused of that. But the things you're 379 00:19:02,554 --> 00:19:05,414 Speaker 1: doing are also multiple films at the same time. I 380 00:19:05,434 --> 00:19:10,154 Speaker 1: just really admire your bandwidth and capacity to put out 381 00:19:10,294 --> 00:19:13,354 Speaker 1: quality work. And across, like, it's not all the same thing. 382 00:19:13,714 --> 00:19:15,234 Speaker 1: It's not all like you're not doing the same thing 383 00:19:15,294 --> 00:19:15,834 Speaker 1: over and over again. 384 00:19:16,224 --> 00:19:18,024 Speaker 2: No, I mean, before we started this conversation, I was 385 00:19:18,044 --> 00:19:20,464 Speaker 2: going to ask you, like, how do you juggle so 386 00:19:20,504 --> 00:19:24,424 Speaker 2: many different things at once? Because, you know, you have 387 00:19:24,444 --> 00:19:27,344 Speaker 2: this podcast now. You have so many television shows that 388 00:19:27,364 --> 00:19:27,804 Speaker 2: you've done. 389 00:19:28,464 --> 00:19:29,244 Speaker 1: You direct. 390 00:19:29,384 --> 00:19:33,414 Speaker 2: You direct films. And we run into each other so randomly. 391 00:19:33,434 --> 00:19:34,934 Speaker 2: I was like, of course Kamau's there. 392 00:19:36,414 --> 00:19:37,114 Speaker 1: Yeah. 393 00:19:37,494 --> 00:19:39,394 Speaker 2: And you have a family. I don't have a family. Well, 394 00:19:39,414 --> 00:19:43,234 Speaker 2: that explains a lot of the time you have. But 395 00:19:43,254 --> 00:19:48,194 Speaker 2: I have a very supportive partner. I think with documentary 396 00:19:48,234 --> 00:19:52,874 Speaker 2: films especially, I learned early on that the beauty of 397 00:19:52,874 --> 00:19:56,714 Speaker 2: documentary is like you're kind of given permission to be 398 00:19:57,144 --> 00:20:00,444 Speaker 2: into allowed into these worlds that you wouldn't have no 399 00:20:00,624 --> 00:20:03,864 Speaker 2: other reason to be in right like being hanging out 400 00:20:03,884 --> 00:20:07,824 Speaker 2: with Lionel or doing something on Bruce Lee and now 401 00:20:08,044 --> 00:20:10,804 Speaker 2: you know having done a film about like an investigative 402 00:20:10,824 --> 00:20:14,654 Speaker 2: film like it's it's almost like how actors like to 403 00:20:14,684 --> 00:20:16,874 Speaker 2: be actors because they can live in different lives and 404 00:20:16,954 --> 00:20:19,934 Speaker 2: for us we get to tell the story of of 405 00:20:20,554 --> 00:20:24,214 Speaker 2: the world and society and individuals that, you know, we 406 00:20:24,354 --> 00:20:25,754 Speaker 2: aren't necessarily a part of. 407 00:20:26,294 --> 00:20:28,034 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that, but also you have to 408 00:20:28,074 --> 00:20:30,014 Speaker 1: have the curiosity to want to be a part of 409 00:20:30,034 --> 00:20:32,814 Speaker 1: these different places. Cause you could easily just be like, no, no, no. 410 00:20:32,874 --> 00:20:34,534 Speaker 1: I just do one thing, you know? Yeah. 411 00:20:34,634 --> 00:20:37,184 Speaker 2: I mean, I think for me, it's like, as a filmmaker, 412 00:20:37,404 --> 00:20:40,424 Speaker 2: as a director, it's like, how do I make this 413 00:20:40,544 --> 00:20:42,684 Speaker 2: a bow wind film? This is the bow wind film 414 00:20:42,704 --> 00:20:44,104 Speaker 2: about we are the world. This is a bow wind 415 00:20:44,124 --> 00:20:47,523 Speaker 2: film about BTS. And that's, I think that's important for 416 00:20:47,624 --> 00:20:51,134 Speaker 2: us is like to have a distinct voice and around 417 00:20:51,174 --> 00:20:52,134 Speaker 2: all these different subjects. 418 00:20:52,214 --> 00:20:55,754 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's the thing I've noticed from watching the, like, 419 00:20:55,774 --> 00:20:57,794 Speaker 1: I haven't seen everything. Also went to your IMDb. I 420 00:20:57,794 --> 00:20:59,594 Speaker 1: was like, I didn't realize there was all this. I had, 421 00:20:59,634 --> 00:21:03,844 Speaker 1: I had missed before be water. Um, but like that, 422 00:21:03,964 --> 00:21:07,564 Speaker 1: there is a distinct style that you have that I 423 00:21:07,624 --> 00:21:10,484 Speaker 1: see in all the films. One of those is like, 424 00:21:11,284 --> 00:21:15,464 Speaker 1: you don't play around with cinematography. He takes cinematography very 425 00:21:15,874 --> 00:21:17,974 Speaker 1: seriously in a way that I, as a director, uh, 426 00:21:18,554 --> 00:21:20,654 Speaker 1: hand it over to somebody and let them do those things. 427 00:21:20,714 --> 00:21:23,054 Speaker 1: But also I think about, I really noticed it in 428 00:21:23,074 --> 00:21:27,454 Speaker 1: the stringer. Like you really, like really beautiful establishing shots 429 00:21:27,494 --> 00:21:29,164 Speaker 1: of like now we're in a different city, not just 430 00:21:29,204 --> 00:21:31,624 Speaker 1: like Los Angeles on the screen, but like, and the 431 00:21:31,664 --> 00:21:34,164 Speaker 1: same thing happened in BTS, like these really beautiful shots 432 00:21:34,784 --> 00:21:37,744 Speaker 1: of the places where you're filming to, to sort of 433 00:21:37,824 --> 00:21:39,114 Speaker 1: give us the sense. And I think this is what 434 00:21:39,134 --> 00:21:42,644 Speaker 1: partially contributes to it feeling like, you know, it's funny 435 00:21:42,684 --> 00:21:45,504 Speaker 1: to say it, it's not just documentary, it's a film, 436 00:21:45,564 --> 00:21:46,704 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? 437 00:21:47,104 --> 00:21:48,144 Speaker 2: I hate when people say that. 438 00:21:48,244 --> 00:21:50,043 Speaker 1: I know, I know. I'm trying not to say that, 439 00:21:50,064 --> 00:21:52,004 Speaker 1: but that's the thing I'm feeling is that like, it 440 00:21:52,064 --> 00:21:54,324 Speaker 1: is very clear that like you care about cinematography a 441 00:21:54,364 --> 00:21:56,594 Speaker 1: lot because you want your films to actually be beautiful 442 00:21:56,934 --> 00:21:58,474 Speaker 1: and to be emotion and be emotional. 443 00:21:59,094 --> 00:22:02,734 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we work in a visual medium, right. And, um, I, 444 00:22:03,034 --> 00:22:06,774 Speaker 2: I've always been someone who thought about how an image 445 00:22:06,834 --> 00:22:09,924 Speaker 2: tells a story and what an articulate image is. 446 00:22:09,984 --> 00:22:10,224 Speaker 1: Right. 447 00:22:10,384 --> 00:22:14,624 Speaker 2: And, nowadays when people you're fighting for people's attention, like 448 00:22:15,034 --> 00:22:17,404 Speaker 2: for people to give you 90 minutes to two hours 449 00:22:17,444 --> 00:22:19,844 Speaker 2: of their time, like you better earn that as, as 450 00:22:19,904 --> 00:22:23,304 Speaker 2: a filmmaker. And so every frame to me matters. Um, 451 00:22:23,684 --> 00:22:27,964 Speaker 2: and you know, deep collaboration with my cinematographers when I'm 452 00:22:28,884 --> 00:22:31,324 Speaker 2: picking a frame, it's something that we talk about. And 453 00:22:31,564 --> 00:22:34,284 Speaker 2: before the frame is even, you know, shot that day, 454 00:22:34,334 --> 00:22:37,194 Speaker 2: it's like, what, how do we approach this? How do we, 455 00:22:37,574 --> 00:22:39,194 Speaker 2: is this going to be handheld? Is this going to 456 00:22:39,214 --> 00:22:42,014 Speaker 2: be just like locked off or, like the stringer, for instance, 457 00:22:42,054 --> 00:22:46,874 Speaker 2: like using still photography and the idea of stillness and 458 00:22:46,894 --> 00:22:49,874 Speaker 2: like life passing through a frame and using, you know, 459 00:22:50,034 --> 00:22:54,954 Speaker 2: tripod as much as possible because like understanding like what 460 00:22:55,034 --> 00:23:00,234 Speaker 2: a still frame can articulate. And then, yeah, with BTS too, 461 00:23:00,294 --> 00:23:04,544 Speaker 2: like slow zooms, just creating the sense of tension and release. 462 00:23:04,744 --> 00:23:08,904 Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, I, I, before I was a filmmaker, 463 00:23:08,924 --> 00:23:11,704 Speaker 2: I was a photographer. And then I think that obviously 464 00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:16,304 Speaker 2: I inherit that, that love for visual storytelling, but I 465 00:23:16,374 --> 00:23:18,793 Speaker 2: do think, yeah, it's a deep collaboration when I'm not 466 00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:23,714 Speaker 2: shooting the deep collaboration with the camera operators and my cinematographers, 467 00:23:23,734 --> 00:23:28,574 Speaker 2: like Caleb Heller, Andrew, you eat your own rail flavors. 468 00:23:28,614 --> 00:23:29,844 Speaker 2: I'm just going to give them some shine. 469 00:23:29,944 --> 00:23:32,864 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So are you one of 470 00:23:32,884 --> 00:23:35,524 Speaker 1: those directors? Like, are you, when you're directing, are you, 471 00:23:36,444 --> 00:23:38,744 Speaker 1: just on set watching or do you ever go, let 472 00:23:38,764 --> 00:23:40,164 Speaker 1: me get that camera so I can actually get the 473 00:23:40,184 --> 00:23:40,704 Speaker 1: shot I need? 474 00:23:40,804 --> 00:23:42,504 Speaker 2: I've done that many times for sure. 475 00:23:42,604 --> 00:23:44,094 Speaker 1: I got the feeling. I just felt like some of 476 00:23:44,114 --> 00:23:46,854 Speaker 1: your shots are so specific and precise. It seems like, 477 00:23:46,894 --> 00:23:49,474 Speaker 1: and I know directors like that. I'm thinking about Mo 478 00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:51,574 Speaker 1: Fallon who I work with on United Shades and who 479 00:23:51,734 --> 00:23:53,774 Speaker 1: came from the Bourdain world and I was on sets 480 00:23:53,794 --> 00:23:55,934 Speaker 1: with him when he would be telling a camera person 481 00:23:55,954 --> 00:23:57,494 Speaker 1: what to do and he'd be like, just let me just, 482 00:23:57,894 --> 00:24:00,874 Speaker 1: you know, which was not meant to insult their skills 483 00:24:00,894 --> 00:24:02,374 Speaker 1: but just to be like, I see a certain thing 484 00:24:02,414 --> 00:24:03,134 Speaker 1: and I need to get it. 485 00:24:03,314 --> 00:24:05,174 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just trying to be efficient. You just want 486 00:24:05,194 --> 00:24:07,543 Speaker 2: to make your day and it's like, It's quicker for 487 00:24:07,584 --> 00:24:10,224 Speaker 2: me to just take the camera and then have to 488 00:24:10,264 --> 00:24:11,784 Speaker 2: do three versions of this. 489 00:24:12,154 --> 00:24:16,034 Speaker 1: And then not get the thing ultimately that you wanted. Yeah. 490 00:24:16,474 --> 00:24:18,294 Speaker 2: And then when I carry the camera, I'm like, holy shit, 491 00:24:18,314 --> 00:24:21,844 Speaker 2: this is heavy. Maybe I'll do one version of it. 492 00:24:22,094 --> 00:24:23,884 Speaker 1: Well, see, it's funny because me as a director, I 493 00:24:23,904 --> 00:24:26,504 Speaker 1: could take the camera from a camera person, but I 494 00:24:26,524 --> 00:24:28,904 Speaker 1: wouldn't know what to do with it. Those aren't the 495 00:24:28,944 --> 00:24:31,524 Speaker 1: skills I had. I've always sort of said, I'm like 496 00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:35,994 Speaker 1: Alfred Hitchcock. because he apparently never touched a camera. But 497 00:24:36,034 --> 00:24:37,444 Speaker 1: I just sort of feel like I had to sort 498 00:24:37,464 --> 00:24:39,303 Speaker 1: of give myself permission to not do that because all 499 00:24:39,344 --> 00:24:41,764 Speaker 1: the film people I'd worked with had come through being 500 00:24:41,804 --> 00:24:43,604 Speaker 1: camera people and cinematographers. And I had to be like, 501 00:24:43,644 --> 00:24:45,744 Speaker 1: when I was directing, like, am I allowed to just 502 00:24:46,224 --> 00:24:48,584 Speaker 1: ask people for things and just say, can you do this? 503 00:24:48,744 --> 00:24:51,024 Speaker 1: And also I found for me, a lot of it 504 00:24:51,064 --> 00:24:53,324 Speaker 1: is like turning over things and going, I know this 505 00:24:53,364 --> 00:24:54,864 Speaker 1: is where your skills are, so I'm not going to like, 506 00:24:55,024 --> 00:24:57,734 Speaker 1: I'm not going to hyper-manage you here, so. And then 507 00:24:57,774 --> 00:25:00,094 Speaker 1: the things I really want, focusing on those. Yeah. Yeah. 508 00:25:00,194 --> 00:25:03,234 Speaker 2: I mean, every director is different. It's just empowering your 509 00:25:03,294 --> 00:25:05,254 Speaker 2: crew to do the best work that they can. 510 00:25:05,534 --> 00:25:07,944 Speaker 1: Sure. So I want to ask you about a specific 511 00:25:07,974 --> 00:25:10,064 Speaker 1: shot in the stringer. There's a shot that I remember 512 00:25:10,104 --> 00:25:11,884 Speaker 1: because I did a Q & A with you after 513 00:25:11,924 --> 00:25:15,204 Speaker 1: there was a screening of it in San Francisco. And 514 00:25:15,224 --> 00:25:17,704 Speaker 1: I remember there was a shot of incense. Do you 515 00:25:17,724 --> 00:25:18,564 Speaker 1: know the shot I'm talking about? 516 00:25:18,584 --> 00:25:19,784 Speaker 2: Where it breaks? 517 00:25:19,864 --> 00:25:20,144 Speaker 1: Yes. 518 00:25:20,184 --> 00:25:20,684 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 519 00:25:20,874 --> 00:25:23,474 Speaker 1: And I was like, damn, did this guy set up 520 00:25:23,534 --> 00:25:27,304 Speaker 1: a camera for like this? I just felt like a very– 521 00:25:27,324 --> 00:25:29,344 Speaker 1: because it was also broke. It was like a very 522 00:25:29,404 --> 00:25:32,724 Speaker 1: intentional break and it worked with the edit. And I 523 00:25:32,784 --> 00:25:35,384 Speaker 1: thought that's how the level of attention this guy has 524 00:25:35,444 --> 00:25:38,604 Speaker 1: is that he's like filming this incense until it breaks. 525 00:25:39,144 --> 00:25:42,294 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like a patience you have to have in documentary, right? 526 00:25:42,334 --> 00:25:45,013 Speaker 2: Like you can't just expect it to happen. That's the 527 00:25:45,074 --> 00:25:49,914 Speaker 2: difference between fiction, like narrative scripted where you make it happen. 528 00:25:49,974 --> 00:25:53,794 Speaker 2: But in documentary, you wait for it to happen. And 529 00:25:53,834 --> 00:25:56,584 Speaker 2: so having that patience is important. It's funny you mentioned 530 00:25:56,604 --> 00:26:01,104 Speaker 2: that shot because, yeah, that shot was in many different 531 00:26:01,124 --> 00:26:05,144 Speaker 2: versions of the film. And there was a version where 532 00:26:05,164 --> 00:26:10,694 Speaker 2: the story in that shot is Janie, who is Ngay, 533 00:26:10,754 --> 00:26:14,754 Speaker 2: the stringer's daughter, is talking about the divorce that her 534 00:26:14,794 --> 00:26:17,884 Speaker 2: parents went through because of the tumult of that photograph. 535 00:26:18,424 --> 00:26:20,704 Speaker 2: And then they got a divorce. And there's a version 536 00:26:20,744 --> 00:26:24,694 Speaker 2: where it actually doesn't break the the piece of incense. 537 00:26:25,184 --> 00:26:25,924 Speaker 1: And um. 538 00:26:27,584 --> 00:26:30,024 Speaker 2: And then one of our editors had one where it 539 00:26:30,084 --> 00:26:33,004 Speaker 2: broke and then our we had two editors and uh 540 00:26:33,124 --> 00:26:37,094 Speaker 2: graham taylor our uh main editor was like it's corny 541 00:26:37,134 --> 00:26:41,434 Speaker 2: that it breaks and i was like sometimes it's just 542 00:26:41,494 --> 00:26:45,414 Speaker 2: like you know just let it be it's corny yeah 543 00:26:45,434 --> 00:26:48,174 Speaker 2: like it's not to you it's corny but there's a 544 00:26:48,214 --> 00:26:50,794 Speaker 2: symbolism and you I mean you're bringing up the exact 545 00:26:50,834 --> 00:26:53,494 Speaker 2: moment and so I think it touches people a certain 546 00:26:53,514 --> 00:26:56,974 Speaker 2: way and for me like I always I sort of 547 00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,854 Speaker 2: hate being in an edit too long because I get 548 00:26:59,934 --> 00:27:03,274 Speaker 2: numb to all these decisions and all these this footage 549 00:27:03,314 --> 00:27:05,414 Speaker 2: that we've seen over and over again so like when 550 00:27:05,434 --> 00:27:08,513 Speaker 2: the first time I see something that's always like I 551 00:27:08,534 --> 00:27:11,754 Speaker 2: think about my instinct and what I felt the first 552 00:27:11,794 --> 00:27:13,714 Speaker 2: time and I write that down because you can never 553 00:27:14,394 --> 00:27:16,273 Speaker 2: replicate the first time you saw something. But if you 554 00:27:16,294 --> 00:27:18,254 Speaker 2: see it like eight times, you're like, what am I 555 00:27:18,314 --> 00:27:20,694 Speaker 2: watching anymore? And that's why it's great to have fresh eyes. 556 00:27:21,014 --> 00:27:23,094 Speaker 2: But I remember the first time I'm seeing that shot 557 00:27:23,154 --> 00:27:26,724 Speaker 2: with that, you know, narration and feeling like, oh, it 558 00:27:27,004 --> 00:27:29,204 Speaker 2: felt right. And then after the seventh time, it could 559 00:27:29,224 --> 00:27:29,684 Speaker 2: feel corny. 560 00:27:29,704 --> 00:27:31,644 Speaker 1: It feels corny, but the audience is probably not going 561 00:27:31,664 --> 00:27:33,584 Speaker 1: to see it seven times, maybe a few of them, 562 00:27:33,604 --> 00:27:34,804 Speaker 1: but most of them are going to see it once 563 00:27:34,884 --> 00:27:36,264 Speaker 1: and it's going to just land the way it landed 564 00:27:36,304 --> 00:27:38,444 Speaker 1: first time. So just for people who don't know, The 565 00:27:38,484 --> 00:27:43,004 Speaker 1: Stringer is about the attribution of that photo being given 566 00:27:43,044 --> 00:27:46,574 Speaker 1: to one person And the film, there's a journalist in 567 00:27:46,594 --> 00:27:49,614 Speaker 1: the film and a lot of investigation by photographers who 568 00:27:49,634 --> 00:27:51,934 Speaker 1: say it could not have been that person who took 569 00:27:51,974 --> 00:27:54,094 Speaker 1: the film, took the photo. It's another person who took 570 00:27:54,114 --> 00:27:57,544 Speaker 1: the photo. And it's meaningful in the film because the 571 00:27:57,584 --> 00:28:01,084 Speaker 1: person whose name is on the photo has had a completely, 572 00:28:01,984 --> 00:28:04,044 Speaker 1: you know, blessed life since then as far as like 573 00:28:04,644 --> 00:28:08,064 Speaker 1: career change, been able to become a famous photographer. And 574 00:28:08,084 --> 00:28:10,804 Speaker 1: the person who maybe the film argues did take the 575 00:28:10,844 --> 00:28:13,904 Speaker 1: photo has lived in obscurity and has not had the 576 00:28:13,964 --> 00:28:17,023 Speaker 1: blessings that that photo would have brought. Exactly, yeah. And 577 00:28:17,064 --> 00:28:20,244 Speaker 1: I'm just giving up all that setup because I remember 578 00:28:20,304 --> 00:28:22,694 Speaker 1: watching it and also feeling like, oh, I was about 579 00:28:22,714 --> 00:28:23,834 Speaker 1: to go through a little bit of what I went 580 00:28:23,854 --> 00:28:27,074 Speaker 1: through on Cosby. Just that they're going to be Vietnamese 581 00:28:27,114 --> 00:28:29,854 Speaker 1: people who are like, why are you ruining this thing? 582 00:28:29,934 --> 00:28:31,844 Speaker 1: Why are you doing this? What's the point of this? 583 00:28:31,864 --> 00:28:33,944 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I believe you did 584 00:28:33,984 --> 00:28:35,784 Speaker 1: that happen. Did you get some pushback from your community? 585 00:28:35,824 --> 00:28:38,164 Speaker 2: I mean, rightfully so, because even before I took on 586 00:28:38,204 --> 00:28:41,504 Speaker 2: the project, I had to interrogate that within myself, whether 587 00:28:41,544 --> 00:28:45,654 Speaker 2: or not I wanted to disrupt this narrative of, you know, 588 00:28:46,374 --> 00:28:49,194 Speaker 2: the most famous photograph taken in during the Vietnam war. 589 00:28:49,754 --> 00:28:52,014 Speaker 2: And it was awarded to a Vietnamese American, you know, 590 00:28:52,034 --> 00:28:55,294 Speaker 2: the Pulitzer prize and the world press photo award. Um, 591 00:28:55,534 --> 00:28:58,434 Speaker 2: and someone who I looked up to, um, you know, 592 00:28:58,494 --> 00:29:02,244 Speaker 2: the Vietnamese American creative community is quite small. And so, um, 593 00:29:03,954 --> 00:29:06,654 Speaker 2: to think that that narrative was untrue and to disrupt 594 00:29:06,714 --> 00:29:10,444 Speaker 2: that possible achievement was scary. But at the same time, 595 00:29:10,454 --> 00:29:15,364 Speaker 2: you know, exploring this idea that another Vietnamese American could 596 00:29:15,404 --> 00:29:20,304 Speaker 2: have taken it and what his life, as you said, 597 00:29:20,424 --> 00:29:24,114 Speaker 2: was very different from the life that Nicolette, who was 598 00:29:24,174 --> 00:29:28,194 Speaker 2: credited for the photograph, had. And so I think as 599 00:29:28,434 --> 00:29:32,844 Speaker 2: a filmmaker who has some agency and is able to 600 00:29:33,244 --> 00:29:36,684 Speaker 2: share stories to a wider audience. I thought this is 601 00:29:36,724 --> 00:29:42,914 Speaker 2: a responsibility and a burden in many ways, but to 602 00:29:42,944 --> 00:29:46,194 Speaker 2: be able to share someone else's perspective is a privilege too, right? 603 00:29:46,234 --> 00:29:49,014 Speaker 2: We're in a very privileged position to to shine a 604 00:29:49,054 --> 00:29:51,974 Speaker 2: light on voices who have been talking for a long 605 00:29:52,014 --> 00:29:54,844 Speaker 2: time but no one's been listening in many ways um 606 00:29:55,304 --> 00:29:59,164 Speaker 2: and so yeah i just thought about the thousands of 607 00:29:59,204 --> 00:30:03,324 Speaker 2: vietnamese who have these secrets and stories that they carry 608 00:30:03,364 --> 00:30:06,264 Speaker 2: with them very quietly especially when they come to a 609 00:30:06,324 --> 00:30:10,744 Speaker 2: new country and feel like they have no no um 610 00:30:12,074 --> 00:30:15,734 Speaker 2: representation or no agency to tell their story and so 611 00:30:15,754 --> 00:30:21,604 Speaker 2: um you know whatever the truth is just giving ngay 612 00:30:21,644 --> 00:30:24,324 Speaker 2: the opportunity to share his perspective because there's no denying 613 00:30:24,364 --> 00:30:26,524 Speaker 2: that he was on there on that day on the 614 00:30:26,564 --> 00:30:29,424 Speaker 2: ground in a position to take the photograph had a 615 00:30:29,444 --> 00:30:35,524 Speaker 2: camera yet his perspective has been Denied for 50 plus years. 616 00:30:36,634 --> 00:30:38,554 Speaker 1: And what's his name? It's Nick. 617 00:30:38,594 --> 00:30:42,394 Speaker 2: Wintunye is the stringer's name. And then Nicklett is the 618 00:30:42,494 --> 00:30:44,094 Speaker 2: credited photographer. 619 00:30:44,474 --> 00:30:47,324 Speaker 1: And was there a moment in the middle of this 620 00:30:47,384 --> 00:30:50,224 Speaker 1: coming out that you felt like, oh, maybe I went 621 00:30:50,244 --> 00:30:51,044 Speaker 1: too far this time? 622 00:30:52,244 --> 00:30:54,604 Speaker 2: I mean, like after doing a film about Bruce Lee 623 00:30:54,664 --> 00:30:57,504 Speaker 2: and we are the world are pretty like, uh, easy topics. 624 00:30:57,524 --> 00:31:00,664 Speaker 2: So just going into this one, I knew going into it, 625 00:31:00,734 --> 00:31:03,334 Speaker 2: it'd be a very different beast. Uh, but you know, 626 00:31:03,354 --> 00:31:08,014 Speaker 2: to answer your previous question, like I can understand sort 627 00:31:08,094 --> 00:31:12,344 Speaker 2: of the pushback and wanting to not disrupt. And I 628 00:31:12,384 --> 00:31:16,324 Speaker 2: think there's a generational divide too among, you know, uh, 629 00:31:17,104 --> 00:31:20,364 Speaker 2: Vietnamese of my parents or older generation who sort of 630 00:31:20,444 --> 00:31:26,434 Speaker 2: want like, um, let sleeping dogs lie. And that's totally fair. 631 00:31:26,494 --> 00:31:28,954 Speaker 2: And I want to hear that and understand that perspective 632 00:31:28,974 --> 00:31:31,414 Speaker 2: more because they've gone through such trauma and they don't 633 00:31:31,434 --> 00:31:34,134 Speaker 2: want to unearth these things. But I think for like 634 00:31:35,374 --> 00:31:41,324 Speaker 2: a generation like mine who feel like we're always trying 635 00:31:41,344 --> 00:31:43,964 Speaker 2: to confront our trauma, right? And that might not be 636 00:31:44,004 --> 00:31:47,184 Speaker 2: the right way too. It's just our way. And so 637 00:31:47,304 --> 00:31:51,444 Speaker 2: I think just like, again, allowing all these perspectives to 638 00:31:51,484 --> 00:31:55,614 Speaker 2: be heard And then letting the conversation and dialogue and 639 00:31:55,694 --> 00:31:59,494 Speaker 2: debate play out on its own is what I always seek. 640 00:32:00,664 --> 00:32:05,404 Speaker 2: And that's what's happened. And so, yeah, just, again, allowing 641 00:32:05,444 --> 00:32:06,624 Speaker 2: people to have their voices heard. 642 00:32:06,644 --> 00:32:10,204 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I guess I'm underestimating, and as soon 643 00:32:10,224 --> 00:32:13,334 Speaker 1: as you said this, I guess, that directing, that of 644 00:32:13,414 --> 00:32:17,634 Speaker 1: course directing the Bruce Leaf documentary, which is now become 645 00:32:17,674 --> 00:32:19,634 Speaker 1: the definitive. There's been a ton of Bruce Lee documentaries. 646 00:32:19,654 --> 00:32:21,274 Speaker 2: I don't like to be, you know, for me, it's 647 00:32:21,294 --> 00:32:23,714 Speaker 2: like when something's called definitive, it makes it seem like 648 00:32:23,734 --> 00:32:26,024 Speaker 2: there's no other film that can come out. And for me, 649 00:32:26,034 --> 00:32:30,024 Speaker 2: it's like, I don't make definitive films. I make maybe 650 00:32:30,044 --> 00:32:32,664 Speaker 2: definitive about when film, but not the definitive Bruce Lee film, 651 00:32:32,684 --> 00:32:35,184 Speaker 2: not the definitive. We are the world film. I want people, 652 00:32:35,204 --> 00:32:38,604 Speaker 2: I think there's in the past, there have been filmmakers 653 00:32:38,644 --> 00:32:40,824 Speaker 2: who go around saying, I don't know if you've ever 654 00:32:40,844 --> 00:32:41,404 Speaker 2: said it. 655 00:32:41,564 --> 00:32:42,704 Speaker 1: No, no, no. I've never said it. 656 00:32:42,724 --> 00:32:44,804 Speaker 2: But there are filmmakers in the past, like this is 657 00:32:44,824 --> 00:32:49,264 Speaker 2: the definitive Civil War film or this is the definitive 658 00:32:49,284 --> 00:32:52,824 Speaker 2: XYZ films. Like how does that, in the tradition of 659 00:32:52,884 --> 00:32:57,564 Speaker 2: storytelling and mythology, how does that open up other storytellers 660 00:32:57,624 --> 00:33:02,124 Speaker 2: and perspectives to tell the same subject but through their 661 00:33:02,164 --> 00:33:04,434 Speaker 2: own lens? And I think that's important for us to like, 662 00:33:05,474 --> 00:33:09,254 Speaker 2: allow other storytellers to, to do this. Like I'm making 663 00:33:09,654 --> 00:33:15,214 Speaker 2: a Jimi Hendrix film and I expect that I should 664 00:33:15,274 --> 00:33:17,494 Speaker 2: not be the only person ever making a Jimi Hendrix film. 665 00:33:17,554 --> 00:33:20,154 Speaker 2: The family, you know, I had a conversation with the family. 666 00:33:20,174 --> 00:33:22,664 Speaker 2: It's a very specific time of his life. I think 667 00:33:22,904 --> 00:33:27,104 Speaker 2: as soon as we say definitive, it closes up, you know, 668 00:33:27,124 --> 00:33:30,064 Speaker 2: the world and perspective of storytelling that I think it's 669 00:33:30,104 --> 00:33:32,404 Speaker 2: gotten us into a lot of trouble in the past. 670 00:33:32,604 --> 00:33:33,964 Speaker 1: No, I guess that's true. I guess I say that 671 00:33:34,004 --> 00:33:35,414 Speaker 1: as a, As you know, you've heard me say this 672 00:33:35,434 --> 00:33:36,874 Speaker 1: so many times, it's got to be annoying, but as 673 00:33:36,934 --> 00:33:42,914 Speaker 1: America's preeminent Bruce Lee scholar, non-Asian division, that I've seen 674 00:33:42,954 --> 00:33:45,294 Speaker 1: a lot of Bruce Lee documentaries, and that was the 675 00:33:45,354 --> 00:33:47,534 Speaker 1: first one that had a real fresh approach that I'd seen. 676 00:33:48,194 --> 00:33:51,014 Speaker 1: And of course, they all mean different things to me 677 00:33:51,034 --> 00:33:52,494 Speaker 1: because I saw them at different times in my life. 678 00:33:52,534 --> 00:33:55,034 Speaker 1: So certainly as a teenager, seeing the ones that were 679 00:33:55,054 --> 00:33:59,014 Speaker 1: just sort of mashed together, archival and some sort of 680 00:33:59,724 --> 00:34:01,864 Speaker 1: some sort of narrator who's saying, and this is why 681 00:34:01,924 --> 00:34:03,644 Speaker 1: Bruce Lee, you know, that was, I needed that at 682 00:34:03,664 --> 00:34:07,304 Speaker 1: the time. I needed something. So I understand that. What was, 683 00:34:07,804 --> 00:34:09,344 Speaker 1: if you know, or maybe we've talked about, if you 684 00:34:09,364 --> 00:34:12,884 Speaker 1: can share, how did the Jimi Hendrix estate figure out 685 00:34:12,904 --> 00:34:13,664 Speaker 1: that you were the guy? 686 00:34:14,643 --> 00:34:16,663 Speaker 2: I mean, it actually is a bit of kismet like 687 00:34:16,724 --> 00:34:17,584 Speaker 2: with Bruce Lee. 688 00:34:17,663 --> 00:34:20,443 Speaker 1: That's what I was wondering. There's a Seattle connection between 689 00:34:20,484 --> 00:34:20,964 Speaker 1: Bruce Lee. 690 00:34:21,004 --> 00:34:23,444 Speaker 2: They had the same birthday, different birth dates. 691 00:34:23,584 --> 00:34:25,763 Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Same birthday. 692 00:34:25,824 --> 00:34:28,944 Speaker 2: Yeah. And Linda went to Garfield and, jimmy went to 693 00:34:28,964 --> 00:34:33,213 Speaker 2: garfield oh wow um so you know for us we're 694 00:34:33,254 --> 00:34:37,814 Speaker 2: like myth makers storytellers so we're like well obviously that's 695 00:34:37,854 --> 00:34:40,954 Speaker 2: a good reason enough to tell that story and so 696 00:34:41,134 --> 00:34:44,933 Speaker 2: yeah i think that connection and um definitely like it 697 00:34:44,973 --> 00:34:47,933 Speaker 2: helped me believe that i can tell this story were they. 698 00:34:47,893 --> 00:34:49,784 Speaker 1: In seattle at the same time because i know bruce 699 00:34:49,803 --> 00:34:52,623 Speaker 1: was only there for a little bit uh jimmy was gone. 700 00:34:52,344 --> 00:34:56,123 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah that early 50s, early 60s, yeah. 701 00:34:56,223 --> 00:34:58,203 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's just funny to think, because I think 702 00:34:58,223 --> 00:35:01,064 Speaker 1: about this with Bruce having lived in Oakland. 703 00:35:01,404 --> 00:35:03,283 Speaker 2: You know, Quincy Jones went to Garfield too, so I 704 00:35:03,303 --> 00:35:06,004 Speaker 2: think I'm just going to go to the Garfield yearbook 705 00:35:06,044 --> 00:35:07,284 Speaker 2: and pick my next film. 706 00:35:07,324 --> 00:35:10,803 Speaker 1: Who else? That's funny. Yeah, that's funny. You've touched on 707 00:35:10,824 --> 00:35:15,454 Speaker 1: all these. Yeah, maybe your whole thing is Pacific Northwest films. 708 00:35:15,674 --> 00:35:18,953 Speaker 1: Because I think it's interesting to think that when I 709 00:35:18,973 --> 00:35:20,613 Speaker 1: think about Bruce Lee having lived in Oakland, he didn't 710 00:35:20,634 --> 00:35:22,814 Speaker 1: live here that long, but he was here. That there 711 00:35:22,854 --> 00:35:25,154 Speaker 1: had to be a time where him and like young, 712 00:35:25,354 --> 00:35:28,623 Speaker 1: like future Black Panthers were like crossing paths without realizing it, 713 00:35:28,774 --> 00:35:30,974 Speaker 1: even though there's not footage of them together, you know, 714 00:35:31,013 --> 00:35:32,984 Speaker 1: just because they were all in the same, Bruce was 715 00:35:33,004 --> 00:35:35,443 Speaker 1: hanging out with Black dudes, which was a big deal 716 00:35:35,484 --> 00:35:43,863 Speaker 1: back then, especially for an Asian dude. Yeah. These days, 717 00:35:43,904 --> 00:35:45,564 Speaker 1: there are more people than ever telling you how to 718 00:35:45,634 --> 00:35:48,654 Speaker 1: manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet 719 00:35:48,734 --> 00:35:51,564 Speaker 1: rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends and Your social 720 00:35:51,584 --> 00:35:53,863 Speaker 1: media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to 721 00:35:53,944 --> 00:35:57,604 Speaker 1: cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's 722 00:35:57,663 --> 00:36:01,884 Speaker 1: actually real? What's exaggerated? And what's just wrong? That's exactly 723 00:36:01,924 --> 00:36:05,243 Speaker 1: what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and 724 00:36:05,404 --> 00:36:08,953 Speaker 1: iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, 725 00:36:09,074 --> 00:36:13,093 Speaker 1: Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of 726 00:36:13,134 --> 00:36:17,113 Speaker 1: views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers, 727 00:36:17,433 --> 00:36:21,133 Speaker 1: real people, and most importantly, doctors. in order to separate 728 00:36:21,254 --> 00:36:23,633 Speaker 1: fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, 729 00:36:24,013 --> 00:36:26,933 Speaker 1: who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype 730 00:36:26,993 --> 00:36:29,694 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 731 00:36:29,714 --> 00:36:40,923 Speaker 1: your podcasts. So we have the stringer, which I said 732 00:36:40,964 --> 00:36:45,104 Speaker 1: is this very deep investigation that in some sense it 733 00:36:45,123 --> 00:36:48,484 Speaker 1: seems like Because you weren't actually doing the investigation, you 734 00:36:48,504 --> 00:36:50,044 Speaker 1: were sort of cataloging it, correct? So you were sort 735 00:36:50,084 --> 00:36:53,064 Speaker 1: of cataloging this thing that's happening, but in a very 736 00:36:53,143 --> 00:36:55,674 Speaker 1: artful way, which is very different from like The Greatest 737 00:36:55,703 --> 00:36:57,553 Speaker 1: Night in Pop, where you have to sort of like 738 00:36:58,553 --> 00:37:00,814 Speaker 1: do the journalism, and I'm using, as far as like, 739 00:37:00,834 --> 00:37:02,614 Speaker 1: you have to assemble the people to tell the stories. 740 00:37:03,614 --> 00:37:06,933 Speaker 1: When that came to you after Be Water, what I 741 00:37:06,953 --> 00:37:09,034 Speaker 1: would imagine that they're probably talking to a lot of people. What, 742 00:37:09,513 --> 00:37:11,623 Speaker 1: and as you said a lot, you're not like of 743 00:37:11,643 --> 00:37:13,064 Speaker 1: the age where you would have grown up on, we 744 00:37:13,104 --> 00:37:14,524 Speaker 1: are the world in the same way that I'm of 745 00:37:14,544 --> 00:37:15,984 Speaker 1: the age where like I grew up on, we are 746 00:37:16,004 --> 00:37:18,283 Speaker 1: the world, you know? So what was, what was your, 747 00:37:18,743 --> 00:37:20,084 Speaker 1: how did you take, how did you decide to take 748 00:37:20,123 --> 00:37:21,823 Speaker 1: that on? Cause I could see a version of you 749 00:37:21,844 --> 00:37:23,404 Speaker 1: be like, this is too, this. 750 00:37:23,344 --> 00:37:27,424 Speaker 2: Is, I mean, that was a little original version of 751 00:37:27,564 --> 00:37:30,034 Speaker 2: my like approach to it is that I was only 752 00:37:30,053 --> 00:37:32,784 Speaker 2: two years old when the song came out. And whenever I, 753 00:37:33,314 --> 00:37:37,513 Speaker 2: say that when Lionel's around, he always just like, why 754 00:37:37,533 --> 00:37:42,294 Speaker 2: are you making me sound old? Um, uh, but I, um, 755 00:37:42,774 --> 00:37:46,154 Speaker 2: obviously knew, know the song, knew the song very well. 756 00:37:46,314 --> 00:37:51,424 Speaker 2: And after Be Water, um, me and my producer, Julia Nottingham, 757 00:37:51,444 --> 00:37:53,544 Speaker 2: who had done Be Water, this was like right after, 758 00:37:53,564 --> 00:37:56,484 Speaker 2: or right during the pandemic. This is like summer 2020 759 00:37:56,484 --> 00:37:59,263 Speaker 2: when we were trying to figure out like, what type 760 00:37:59,364 --> 00:38:02,144 Speaker 2: of film do we want to make next? And knowing 761 00:38:02,183 --> 00:38:06,094 Speaker 2: that we, knowing we weren't going to get into production 762 00:38:06,134 --> 00:38:09,734 Speaker 2: anytime soon. Let's look for stories that have happened. And 763 00:38:09,774 --> 00:38:11,863 Speaker 2: also like the sense of nostalgia. Like, I don't know 764 00:38:11,904 --> 00:38:13,643 Speaker 2: what you were watching during the pandemic, but I was 765 00:38:13,683 --> 00:38:16,124 Speaker 2: like watching a lot of things from like the late eighties, 766 00:38:16,163 --> 00:38:19,004 Speaker 2: early nineties. Cause like it's something familiar to me and 767 00:38:19,044 --> 00:38:21,444 Speaker 2: I didn't know what the outside world was going to become. 768 00:38:21,504 --> 00:38:24,623 Speaker 2: So it was like this warm blanket. And to many 769 00:38:24,663 --> 00:38:26,854 Speaker 2: people where the world is a warm blanket. 770 00:38:26,993 --> 00:38:27,873 Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah. 771 00:38:27,973 --> 00:38:31,013 Speaker 2: And so, But I'm always like, am I the best 772 00:38:31,074 --> 00:38:35,093 Speaker 2: person to tell this story? I'm always interrogating because, again, 773 00:38:35,134 --> 00:38:36,553 Speaker 2: I feel like it's such a privilege to be able 774 00:38:36,574 --> 00:38:41,784 Speaker 2: to tell these stories. I should earn that privilege. And, yeah, 775 00:38:41,803 --> 00:38:45,324 Speaker 2: it took a while for me to get into it because, 776 00:38:45,564 --> 00:38:48,424 Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, and I said this before, the song 777 00:38:48,904 --> 00:38:51,643 Speaker 2: was a bit corny to me. It's a corny song. 778 00:38:51,683 --> 00:38:54,203 Speaker 1: Corny comes up again in our interview. I mean, it 779 00:38:54,223 --> 00:38:56,263 Speaker 1: was meant to be a corny song. Even when they 780 00:38:56,303 --> 00:38:58,654 Speaker 1: talk about writing it, They're trying to write an anthem, 781 00:38:58,814 --> 00:39:01,113 Speaker 1: which is inherently a corny idea. Like, you know, that 782 00:39:01,134 --> 00:39:03,163 Speaker 1: you're like, we want to write a big, but again, 783 00:39:03,524 --> 00:39:04,464 Speaker 1: there's a place for corn. 784 00:39:04,623 --> 00:39:08,404 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think it's unifying corn. 785 00:39:09,123 --> 00:39:11,064 Speaker 1: Corny, things are corny for a reason because they hit 786 00:39:11,104 --> 00:39:13,513 Speaker 1: you in a certain place. And it's only, I think things, 787 00:39:13,834 --> 00:39:16,504 Speaker 1: corny is becoming, I mean, it is inherently sort of, 788 00:39:17,174 --> 00:39:19,274 Speaker 1: like sort of sounds negative because it feels like it's 789 00:39:19,314 --> 00:39:22,514 Speaker 1: trying to be something. It's trying to be saccharine. 790 00:39:23,203 --> 00:39:23,484 Speaker 2: Sure. 791 00:39:23,564 --> 00:39:25,104 Speaker 1: But also. 792 00:39:25,143 --> 00:39:27,123 Speaker 2: There's an innocence to it. It takes you back to 793 00:39:27,163 --> 00:39:31,694 Speaker 2: a time where you weren't so jaded and sort of 794 00:39:31,794 --> 00:39:35,274 Speaker 2: cynical about life. And so, I mean, I think Bruce 795 00:39:35,294 --> 00:39:38,924 Speaker 2: Springsteen was like my perfect sort of vessel, in my opinion, 796 00:39:39,143 --> 00:39:40,783 Speaker 2: of what I thought the song was. It was like, 797 00:39:41,223 --> 00:39:43,633 Speaker 2: you know, the song was what it was. It was 798 00:39:43,714 --> 00:39:45,473 Speaker 2: a tool. It did what it needed to do. I 799 00:39:45,473 --> 00:39:49,234 Speaker 2: was like, that's exactly how I feel that song. That 800 00:39:49,254 --> 00:39:51,633 Speaker 2: being said, I talked to a lot of friends who 801 00:39:51,674 --> 00:39:53,433 Speaker 2: grew up at that time and what that song meant 802 00:39:53,453 --> 00:39:55,893 Speaker 2: to them. And they're like, that song was like everything. 803 00:39:56,493 --> 00:40:00,303 Speaker 2: And it was everywhere. And it wasn't until I, my 804 00:40:00,344 --> 00:40:01,183 Speaker 2: parents realized And. 805 00:40:01,123 --> 00:40:03,384 Speaker 1: The eighties were a corny decade. Yeah. 806 00:40:03,404 --> 00:40:05,663 Speaker 2: Looking back at the eighties, everything's going to be viewed 807 00:40:05,703 --> 00:40:08,983 Speaker 2: through that perspective. Um, but you know, I, my parents 808 00:40:09,024 --> 00:40:12,024 Speaker 2: are refugees from Vietnam and they, they lived in America 809 00:40:12,044 --> 00:40:15,463 Speaker 2: for a long time since, um, for about 10 years 810 00:40:15,524 --> 00:40:17,803 Speaker 2: now they've been back in Vietnam. So I went to 811 00:40:17,844 --> 00:40:20,663 Speaker 2: visit them when I was like still figuring out whether 812 00:40:20,703 --> 00:40:23,663 Speaker 2: or not I should make this film. And I get 813 00:40:23,703 --> 00:40:27,004 Speaker 2: into a taxi cab, 70 year old taxi cab driver, 814 00:40:27,024 --> 00:40:29,884 Speaker 2: Vietnamese speaks no English. He asked me if I, if 815 00:40:29,904 --> 00:40:32,053 Speaker 2: he can play some music, I'm like, sure. He puts 816 00:40:32,114 --> 00:40:35,613 Speaker 2: in a mix CD, the first song, you know, that 817 00:40:35,814 --> 00:40:40,533 Speaker 2: the opening melody that we are, the world is so iconic. 818 00:40:40,553 --> 00:40:42,653 Speaker 2: I was like, there's no way he's playing. We are 819 00:40:42,674 --> 00:40:44,873 Speaker 2: the world right now. And you know, he plays it. 820 00:40:44,893 --> 00:40:46,814 Speaker 2: And once the song is done, I'm like, why did 821 00:40:46,834 --> 00:40:49,914 Speaker 2: you play? He's like, basically in Vietnamese, that song's a banger. 822 00:40:49,933 --> 00:40:53,033 Speaker 2: So it's like, that song has like, you know, it, 823 00:40:53,094 --> 00:40:55,434 Speaker 2: it means so much to people all around the world. 824 00:40:55,493 --> 00:40:59,163 Speaker 2: And I wanted to like, understand that, but on, kind 825 00:40:59,183 --> 00:41:01,743 Speaker 2: of a visceral and intimate level. I didn't want to 826 00:41:01,763 --> 00:41:04,294 Speaker 2: make a film that was like talking about like sort 827 00:41:04,334 --> 00:41:08,794 Speaker 2: of like the history of celebrity charity songs and, and 828 00:41:09,134 --> 00:41:10,754 Speaker 2: all this. I wanted to be like, that's why it's 829 00:41:10,774 --> 00:41:12,633 Speaker 2: called the greatest night in pop. It's like about one 830 00:41:12,694 --> 00:41:15,273 Speaker 2: night and like how they made that song. And for me, 831 00:41:15,594 --> 00:41:17,393 Speaker 2: even hearing the story of how they made it was 832 00:41:17,413 --> 00:41:19,824 Speaker 2: so interesting. And it felt like a heist film to me. 833 00:41:19,844 --> 00:41:24,604 Speaker 2: It's like Ocean's 11. Danny Ocean is Lionel Quincy's. I 834 00:41:24,623 --> 00:41:26,654 Speaker 2: was trying to figure out like who Michael is and, 835 00:41:26,993 --> 00:41:29,783 Speaker 2: It's so funny. We didn't include this in the movie, 836 00:41:29,924 --> 00:41:33,743 Speaker 2: but I think it was Lionel or David Breskin who 837 00:41:33,763 --> 00:41:36,204 Speaker 2: literally wrote the book on We Are the World. It's like, 838 00:41:36,544 --> 00:41:39,903 Speaker 2: who is Michael in the heist genre? And they're like, 839 00:41:40,123 --> 00:41:43,974 Speaker 2: he's like the blonde, beautiful woman in the red dress 840 00:41:44,013 --> 00:41:47,514 Speaker 2: that distracts everyone. That's funny. 841 00:41:47,654 --> 00:41:48,493 Speaker 1: That's funny. 842 00:41:48,794 --> 00:41:51,754 Speaker 2: But anyways, I could, again, make this into a Bowen 843 00:41:51,794 --> 00:41:54,193 Speaker 2: film because it could be a heist film. It's not 844 00:41:54,214 --> 00:41:57,864 Speaker 2: like Jester- typical behind the music and then it still 845 00:41:57,973 --> 00:42:00,634 Speaker 2: touched so many people and i still to this day 846 00:42:00,674 --> 00:42:02,873 Speaker 2: i mean before we started recording you told me you 847 00:42:03,094 --> 00:42:05,093 Speaker 2: watch it with your children and i have people come 848 00:42:05,134 --> 00:42:06,573 Speaker 2: up to me it's like i watched it with my 849 00:42:06,634 --> 00:42:09,843 Speaker 2: parents i watched with my grandparents so to like make 850 00:42:10,364 --> 00:42:14,584 Speaker 2: something that's so joyful nowadays i think it's a you 851 00:42:14,623 --> 00:42:17,484 Speaker 2: know we try to work in the realm of trying 852 00:42:17,504 --> 00:42:21,504 Speaker 2: to make impact and like make impact doesn't mean just 853 00:42:22,074 --> 00:42:25,993 Speaker 2: um highlighting sort of people who are distant is that's 854 00:42:26,033 --> 00:42:28,913 Speaker 2: a very big part of it, but bringing joy to 855 00:42:28,953 --> 00:42:31,723 Speaker 2: people is like so hard nowadays. So to be able 856 00:42:31,743 --> 00:42:33,484 Speaker 2: to do that, I think it's a great sort of 857 00:42:33,604 --> 00:42:35,403 Speaker 2: act of resistance in many ways. 858 00:42:35,743 --> 00:42:37,964 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that, you know, you also had 859 00:42:38,004 --> 00:42:40,283 Speaker 1: to find something that was, that made it more than 860 00:42:40,324 --> 00:42:42,914 Speaker 1: just behind the music. And I think about two things 861 00:42:42,953 --> 00:42:45,053 Speaker 1: that when people talk about that film sort of things 862 00:42:45,094 --> 00:42:48,913 Speaker 1: that you see clips of one is, and we'll probably 863 00:42:48,933 --> 00:42:51,914 Speaker 1: see this for as, is Stevie Wonder teaching Bob Dylan 864 00:42:51,933 --> 00:42:54,473 Speaker 1: how to sing like Bob Dylan, which is just such a, like, 865 00:42:55,614 --> 00:43:00,054 Speaker 1: a great sort of window into creative people, and also 866 00:43:00,074 --> 00:43:01,694 Speaker 1: to sort of go, oh, so Stevie Wonder's even more 867 00:43:01,714 --> 00:43:01,933 Speaker 1: of a genius. 868 00:43:01,953 --> 00:43:03,744 Speaker 2: That's like Stevie Wonder picking up the camera, telling him, 869 00:43:03,854 --> 00:43:06,913 Speaker 2: let me show you how to do this. I'm not 870 00:43:06,933 --> 00:43:08,433 Speaker 2: comparing myself to Stevie Wonder. 871 00:43:08,473 --> 00:43:09,974 Speaker 1: He's like, Bob, let me show you how to do 872 00:43:09,993 --> 00:43:13,584 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. And Bob Dylan doing it, and then being 873 00:43:13,604 --> 00:43:15,624 Speaker 1: able to find his place in this. Again, in this song, 874 00:43:15,643 --> 00:43:17,524 Speaker 1: I'm sure Bob Dylan's like, this is cheesy, you know 875 00:43:17,544 --> 00:43:20,033 Speaker 1: what I mean? Uh, or, or corny. I'm sorry. I'm 876 00:43:20,074 --> 00:43:22,553 Speaker 1: using the wrong word. And then the story of, and 877 00:43:22,574 --> 00:43:25,174 Speaker 1: I say this cause we're here in Oakland of Sheila E. 878 00:43:25,884 --> 00:43:28,663 Speaker 1: Of feeling like she was basically used as a way 879 00:43:28,703 --> 00:43:32,363 Speaker 1: to get to Prince as cause who, who was the 880 00:43:32,404 --> 00:43:34,564 Speaker 1: other biggest star in the world at that point was 881 00:43:34,703 --> 00:43:37,004 Speaker 1: so important. And I could definitely see a version of 882 00:43:37,044 --> 00:43:39,453 Speaker 1: the film where one of your producers would be like, no, no, no, 883 00:43:39,473 --> 00:43:41,593 Speaker 1: not that part. We're not including that. That makes this 884 00:43:41,674 --> 00:43:44,193 Speaker 1: night sound like it was less than perfect. Yeah. And so, but, 885 00:43:44,274 --> 00:43:47,594 Speaker 1: and yet when I watched it sitting next to Tom Morello, 886 00:43:48,094 --> 00:43:51,173 Speaker 1: I was like, good job, Bao. You know what I mean? 887 00:43:51,214 --> 00:43:53,594 Speaker 1: For not shying away from the fact that it wasn't 888 00:43:53,654 --> 00:43:56,763 Speaker 1: all just people eating chicken and high-fiving and getting autographs. 889 00:43:56,783 --> 00:43:59,884 Speaker 1: There's also some music industry politics happening here that affected 890 00:44:00,143 --> 00:44:02,803 Speaker 1: Sheila E. And she was at the premiere. So I 891 00:44:02,824 --> 00:44:05,223 Speaker 1: thought even the fact that she feels good enough about 892 00:44:05,263 --> 00:44:07,004 Speaker 1: her place in it to come to the premiere is something. 893 00:44:07,183 --> 00:44:11,524 Speaker 2: Yeah, and her and Lionel hugged it out. I remember 894 00:44:11,763 --> 00:44:15,564 Speaker 2: when we did the interview with Sheila and you know, 895 00:44:15,904 --> 00:44:19,763 Speaker 2: we did pre-interviews. We talked about what, you know, the 896 00:44:19,803 --> 00:44:22,163 Speaker 2: film was about and she told us her experience, which 897 00:44:22,183 --> 00:44:24,464 Speaker 2: she didn't tell us that in the pre-interview. So when 898 00:44:24,504 --> 00:44:27,593 Speaker 2: she told us that story on the day, like I was, 899 00:44:27,694 --> 00:44:30,294 Speaker 2: my heart was sinking for her and she was in, 900 00:44:30,373 --> 00:44:32,614 Speaker 2: you know, we shot all the interviews in the actual 901 00:44:32,654 --> 00:44:35,473 Speaker 2: recording studio that happened. So she's like looking around, like 902 00:44:35,533 --> 00:44:38,453 Speaker 2: kind of feeling, I don't think she had been back. 903 00:44:38,654 --> 00:44:40,953 Speaker 1: She's not having the, I'm home like Lionel is. 904 00:44:41,174 --> 00:44:41,674 Speaker 2: Exactly. 905 00:44:41,694 --> 00:44:41,933 Speaker 1: Yeah. 906 00:44:41,973 --> 00:44:44,213 Speaker 2: She's like, this is, this felt like a little weird 907 00:44:44,254 --> 00:44:47,314 Speaker 2: to me. And, Um, yeah, to her credit, like she 908 00:44:47,413 --> 00:44:51,673 Speaker 2: was very honest and open about that. And I think 909 00:44:52,254 --> 00:44:54,234 Speaker 2: for me, I'm always just trying to make an honest film. 910 00:44:54,254 --> 00:44:56,694 Speaker 1: Uh, it might. 911 00:44:56,714 --> 00:45:00,803 Speaker 2: Feel like sort of, uh, you know, even though films 912 00:45:00,864 --> 00:45:05,844 Speaker 2: are positive and they're still complex in their honesty. 913 00:45:05,904 --> 00:45:06,123 Speaker 1: Right. 914 00:45:06,143 --> 00:45:08,223 Speaker 2: And it's like, I never try to shy away from that. 915 00:45:08,743 --> 00:45:11,064 Speaker 2: And so, yeah, having Sheila talk about that and to 916 00:45:11,104 --> 00:45:13,744 Speaker 2: Lionel's credit too, like, you know, he was a producer 917 00:45:13,783 --> 00:45:14,284 Speaker 2: on the film. 918 00:45:14,814 --> 00:45:16,473 Speaker 1: That's what I know. It's like, there's producers who could 919 00:45:16,493 --> 00:45:17,874 Speaker 1: be like, we're not included. 920 00:45:18,854 --> 00:45:21,854 Speaker 2: I was afraid that he would say something. He's like, 921 00:45:21,913 --> 00:45:25,653 Speaker 2: that's how it happened. And so, uh, again, it's, I 922 00:45:25,783 --> 00:45:29,223 Speaker 2: always say like, we should always push for honesty. Like 923 00:45:29,283 --> 00:45:33,104 Speaker 2: we never want a film to be dishonest. Um, and so, yeah, 924 00:45:33,143 --> 00:45:36,564 Speaker 2: that was great. And then Bob Dylan, he, when I 925 00:45:37,263 --> 00:45:40,174 Speaker 2: started making the film, uh, you know, the last dance 926 00:45:40,183 --> 00:45:42,133 Speaker 2: with a film that I thought about a lot and like, 927 00:45:42,964 --> 00:45:45,483 Speaker 2: rodman going to vegas like these scenes that just stay 928 00:45:45,504 --> 00:45:48,403 Speaker 2: in your mind like bob dylan is that to me 929 00:45:48,544 --> 00:45:51,663 Speaker 2: like the scene with stevie and also just the we 930 00:45:51,703 --> 00:45:53,803 Speaker 2: wanted bob dylan to have a whole arc i think 931 00:45:54,104 --> 00:45:55,783 Speaker 2: there were a lot of memes about bob dylan from 932 00:45:55,803 --> 00:45:58,123 Speaker 2: that night where he just looks like he's spaced out 933 00:45:58,143 --> 00:46:00,803 Speaker 2: and there's there's no context to that and so what 934 00:46:01,344 --> 00:46:03,144 Speaker 2: the film could do better than any of the memes 935 00:46:03,183 --> 00:46:05,614 Speaker 2: is like give him a full arc like he comes 936 00:46:05,654 --> 00:46:08,413 Speaker 2: into this and i think there's like a letterboxd review 937 00:46:08,513 --> 00:46:12,053 Speaker 2: where someone says like Bob Dylan is like me at 938 00:46:12,134 --> 00:46:15,623 Speaker 2: every group project in school. And so just like that 939 00:46:15,884 --> 00:46:18,644 Speaker 2: thousand mile stare that he's giving, we all have that 940 00:46:18,763 --> 00:46:21,763 Speaker 2: at certain moments in life. And even Bob Dylan has that. 941 00:46:21,783 --> 00:46:24,444 Speaker 1: Yeah. What did I get myself into? Exactly. How do 942 00:46:24,484 --> 00:46:26,263 Speaker 1: I survive this experience and how do I get out 943 00:46:26,303 --> 00:46:26,564 Speaker 1: of here? 944 00:46:26,703 --> 00:46:29,123 Speaker 2: Well, you know, when he finishes that line at the end, 945 00:46:29,243 --> 00:46:32,244 Speaker 2: people are clapping and that is a really beautiful moment. 946 00:46:32,324 --> 00:46:34,743 Speaker 1: And it's an iconic part of the song. So also 947 00:46:34,854 --> 00:46:36,433 Speaker 1: one other thing I want to say about We Are 948 00:46:36,473 --> 00:46:39,534 Speaker 1: The World, and this is about, you mentioned Bruce Springsteen. 949 00:46:40,574 --> 00:46:41,893 Speaker 1: And this is something I felt for a long time. 950 00:46:41,913 --> 00:46:42,873 Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever said it out loud. 951 00:46:42,893 --> 00:46:46,393 Speaker 1: I've said it to friends. Bruce Springsteen is one of 952 00:46:46,473 --> 00:46:50,884 Speaker 1: our greatest talkers in mankind. Like, he is just a 953 00:46:50,984 --> 00:46:55,183 Speaker 1: very good, like, speaker on what his world and that 954 00:46:55,243 --> 00:46:57,904 Speaker 1: is in ways that I find if Bruce Springsteen is 955 00:46:57,924 --> 00:47:00,633 Speaker 1: being interviewed, I will listen. And I'm like an okay Bruce. Like, 956 00:47:00,844 --> 00:47:03,314 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen exists, and, you know, I get it. I'm 957 00:47:03,354 --> 00:47:05,334 Speaker 1: not arguing against the music at all. He's done a 958 00:47:05,334 --> 00:47:08,533 Speaker 1: lot of powerful things, especially specifically recently with Minneapolis. But 959 00:47:08,553 --> 00:47:10,734 Speaker 1: I think he's as good a talker as he is 960 00:47:10,754 --> 00:47:12,814 Speaker 1: a musician. I just find him, like you said, he's 961 00:47:12,854 --> 00:47:14,444 Speaker 1: able to put things in a very succinct way that 962 00:47:14,473 --> 00:47:16,783 Speaker 1: I really appreciate. When you have a film like that, 963 00:47:16,803 --> 00:47:18,663 Speaker 1: you've got to find people who can tell the story 964 00:47:19,064 --> 00:47:20,924 Speaker 1: well and interesting. 965 00:47:21,303 --> 00:47:24,123 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's also a very busy guy. We had like 966 00:47:24,123 --> 00:47:27,264 Speaker 2: 30 minutes with him, exactly, and he's like in and out. 967 00:47:27,763 --> 00:47:28,633 Speaker 1: Did he come to the studio? 968 00:47:28,933 --> 00:47:31,373 Speaker 2: No, no, he was like the one person that was like, 969 00:47:31,803 --> 00:47:32,703 Speaker 2: y'all got to come to me. 970 00:47:32,864 --> 00:47:34,124 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, you're the boss. 971 00:47:34,803 --> 00:47:38,363 Speaker 2: Literally. Um, and so we went to his studio in, 972 00:47:38,544 --> 00:47:42,803 Speaker 2: in New Jersey and, um, yeah, he had, he was 973 00:47:42,844 --> 00:47:45,214 Speaker 2: doing like a whole week at Fallon and he had 974 00:47:45,234 --> 00:47:48,194 Speaker 2: just come back from Italy and he like gave us 975 00:47:48,194 --> 00:47:51,194 Speaker 2: 30 minutes and it was like super, he's very concise person. 976 00:47:51,214 --> 00:47:53,254 Speaker 1: And you used each of those 30 minutes. 977 00:47:53,373 --> 00:47:56,554 Speaker 2: We pull, I mean, yeah, this is AI before AI. 978 00:47:56,574 --> 00:47:56,814 Speaker 1: Sorry. 979 00:47:56,834 --> 00:47:59,984 Speaker 2: We just extend, just kidding. Um, we use every single 980 00:48:00,024 --> 00:48:01,024 Speaker 2: thing that he gave us. 981 00:48:01,344 --> 00:48:04,683 Speaker 1: Um, Yeah, no, I mean, so he's basically no less 982 00:48:04,723 --> 00:48:07,064 Speaker 1: busy now than he was then, for real, when he 983 00:48:07,123 --> 00:48:09,203 Speaker 1: flew in from tour to go on vacation. 984 00:48:09,703 --> 00:48:13,683 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, he said in the film that he never, like, 985 00:48:13,783 --> 00:48:15,683 Speaker 2: does anything right after a tour. Like, that was the 986 00:48:15,824 --> 00:48:19,343 Speaker 2: end of his tour, and he flew. And, I mean, 987 00:48:22,183 --> 00:48:24,683 Speaker 2: this was like a rumor that he rented a car 988 00:48:24,783 --> 00:48:26,663 Speaker 2: to drive to A & M. He's like, I didn't 989 00:48:26,683 --> 00:48:30,093 Speaker 2: rent a car. I had a car. But, yeah, he 990 00:48:30,134 --> 00:48:34,013 Speaker 2: just pulled up to– um, to, uh, A & M and, 991 00:48:34,513 --> 00:48:37,653 Speaker 2: you know, it's Bruce Springsteen and people didn't expect, you know, 992 00:48:37,714 --> 00:48:39,973 Speaker 2: people expected everyone from the American Music Awards because it 993 00:48:40,013 --> 00:48:42,474 Speaker 2: was held that night to come over, but to fly 994 00:48:42,594 --> 00:48:46,534 Speaker 2: over to record that song, uh, and then kill his 995 00:48:46,614 --> 00:48:49,444 Speaker 2: verse was, uh, something that's very boss level. 996 00:48:49,524 --> 00:48:51,843 Speaker 1: It's boss level. It's, it's, it's funny. The other thing 997 00:48:51,864 --> 00:48:53,564 Speaker 1: about watching that with an 11 year old is you 998 00:48:53,584 --> 00:49:00,294 Speaker 1: have to explain like Bruce Springsteen is so indicative of 999 00:49:00,334 --> 00:49:01,794 Speaker 1: the 80s in a way that we don't have a 1000 00:49:01,834 --> 00:49:04,794 Speaker 1: person who's that age, who's that big. You know what 1001 00:49:04,814 --> 00:49:07,974 Speaker 1: I mean? Sort of of that style. So she was like, 1002 00:49:08,094 --> 00:49:11,204 Speaker 1: who is that guy? Basically, it's very clear why somebody 1003 00:49:11,223 --> 00:49:14,143 Speaker 1: like Michael Jackson is famous, because he looks like he's famous. 1004 00:49:14,183 --> 00:49:16,183 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? But then Bruce Springsteen walks 1005 00:49:16,243 --> 00:49:17,663 Speaker 1: in out of that car, and I just sort of 1006 00:49:17,683 --> 00:49:21,553 Speaker 1: contextualize who everybody was in the film for her, because 1007 00:49:21,723 --> 00:49:23,613 Speaker 1: she doesn't know any of these people. You know what 1008 00:49:23,654 --> 00:49:23,893 Speaker 1: I mean? 1009 00:49:24,134 --> 00:49:27,783 Speaker 2: There's a great... TikTok video, I think it's TikTok or 1010 00:49:27,844 --> 00:49:32,243 Speaker 2: somewhere on social media of this teacher who is going 1011 00:49:32,263 --> 00:49:35,173 Speaker 2: through the music video and explaining to her students, like, 1012 00:49:35,574 --> 00:49:38,194 Speaker 2: can you name this person? And when Stevie comes up, 1013 00:49:38,594 --> 00:49:39,794 Speaker 2: someone screams Kanye. 1014 00:49:43,074 --> 00:49:46,113 Speaker 1: That's funny. See, I think, yeah, that's funny. That's funny. 1015 00:49:47,574 --> 00:49:49,413 Speaker 1: So you made me do something I never thought I 1016 00:49:49,433 --> 00:49:52,674 Speaker 1: would ever do. I did a deep dive on BTS. 1017 00:49:52,854 --> 00:49:55,674 Speaker 1: So this is how much I respect you. So I 1018 00:49:55,734 --> 00:49:57,573 Speaker 1: knew who BTS was, of course, because I'm alive on 1019 00:49:57,594 --> 00:50:01,733 Speaker 1: the planet. And the great thing about BTS is that 1020 00:50:01,893 --> 00:50:03,834 Speaker 1: I found, I think I initially found out through BTS 1021 00:50:03,873 --> 00:50:05,513 Speaker 1: after I sort of knew that they were a thing 1022 00:50:05,533 --> 00:50:07,214 Speaker 1: in the world and they came to America before. But 1023 00:50:07,274 --> 00:50:09,573 Speaker 1: my like, I'm married to a white lady, means I 1024 00:50:09,594 --> 00:50:12,593 Speaker 1: got white nieces and nephews and my white blonde niece, 1025 00:50:13,424 --> 00:50:15,964 Speaker 1: huge member of the army. And so I knew them 1026 00:50:16,024 --> 00:50:18,104 Speaker 1: through her. It's like, I think they flew to LA 1027 00:50:18,123 --> 00:50:21,294 Speaker 1: to see the concert at one point. And so- but 1028 00:50:21,393 --> 00:50:23,734 Speaker 1: having never like really sort of like, where does, and 1029 00:50:23,774 --> 00:50:26,794 Speaker 1: I know there's this sort of like K-pop industry, of course, 1030 00:50:26,814 --> 00:50:28,994 Speaker 1: and I've heard a lot of talk about the K-pop industry. 1031 00:50:29,013 --> 00:50:31,204 Speaker 1: I follow Jane Lee on Instagram, who talks a lot 1032 00:50:31,223 --> 00:50:34,303 Speaker 1: about K-pop's connections to black culture. So I've sort of, 1033 00:50:34,584 --> 00:50:36,964 Speaker 1: in the discourse time, but then to watch your doc, 1034 00:50:37,544 --> 00:50:39,544 Speaker 1: and I also was like, even this is different than 1035 00:50:39,564 --> 00:50:41,343 Speaker 1: everything else he's done, because you really sort of put 1036 00:50:41,364 --> 00:50:44,544 Speaker 1: yourself in this as a fly on the wall. Like, 1037 00:50:44,723 --> 00:50:46,203 Speaker 1: I don't know, I sort of am curious about like, 1038 00:50:46,464 --> 00:50:48,343 Speaker 1: there was clearly a decision made to not do like 1039 00:50:48,424 --> 00:50:52,354 Speaker 1: interviews in chairs, There's not to do a birth, like 1040 00:50:52,413 --> 00:50:56,054 Speaker 1: sort of like we were born in 19 or 2000, 1041 00:50:56,044 --> 00:50:59,683 Speaker 1: probably that it, what, what was the creative process of that? 1042 00:50:59,723 --> 00:51:02,904 Speaker 1: And also clearly those dudes were in the middle of 1043 00:51:02,964 --> 00:51:05,223 Speaker 1: like trying to finish an album and probably did not 1044 00:51:05,243 --> 00:51:07,104 Speaker 1: have a lot of time. I'll have Bruce Springsteen to 1045 00:51:07,143 --> 00:51:08,184 Speaker 1: sit down and tell the whole story. 1046 00:51:09,223 --> 00:51:11,943 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I, I always like a challenge, like 1047 00:51:12,203 --> 00:51:18,044 Speaker 2: where I can bring in like my, filmmaking background into 1048 00:51:18,064 --> 00:51:22,084 Speaker 2: a new scenario and um this one was like oh 1049 00:51:22,203 --> 00:51:24,783 Speaker 2: this is a very present day film this is not 1050 00:51:25,114 --> 00:51:28,214 Speaker 2: a retrospective i've done a lot of films that where 1051 00:51:28,234 --> 00:51:30,734 Speaker 2: the events already happened and i think looking back at 1052 00:51:30,834 --> 00:51:33,113 Speaker 2: it like i'm sort of like many directors have like 1053 00:51:33,134 --> 00:51:36,073 Speaker 2: a guy complex and like we are control freaks and 1054 00:51:36,134 --> 00:51:38,794 Speaker 2: so if a story's already happened we can reshape that 1055 00:51:38,854 --> 00:51:42,753 Speaker 2: into what our story of that is right yeah this 1056 00:51:42,854 --> 00:51:45,473 Speaker 2: is like it's unfolding before your eyes but i think 1057 00:51:45,513 --> 00:51:48,194 Speaker 2: of like some of the films that I really love, 1058 00:51:48,553 --> 00:51:51,413 Speaker 2: especially from like the sixties, like old, you know, DA 1059 00:51:51,493 --> 00:51:54,754 Speaker 2: Penny Baker, Maisel brothers films where they're like just with 1060 00:51:54,794 --> 00:51:58,784 Speaker 2: the artists while they're on tour or like recording an album. 1061 00:51:59,424 --> 00:52:01,884 Speaker 2: And this was sort of like an ode to that, 1062 00:52:01,964 --> 00:52:08,723 Speaker 2: but for the, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, uh, um, generation. And, um, 1063 00:52:09,303 --> 00:52:13,463 Speaker 2: and it's interesting cause like most documentaries like about sort 1064 00:52:13,484 --> 00:52:17,334 Speaker 2: of like celebrities or musicians nowadays, um, and my producer, 1065 00:52:17,373 --> 00:52:20,843 Speaker 2: Jane Chalk Cutler mentioned this to me when we were 1066 00:52:20,864 --> 00:52:24,124 Speaker 2: doing interviews together in Seoul. It's like, usually it's about 1067 00:52:24,243 --> 00:52:26,564 Speaker 2: the beginning of a career or the end of a career. 1068 00:52:26,984 --> 00:52:29,544 Speaker 2: It's rare that you're just like smack into the middle 1069 00:52:29,584 --> 00:52:34,044 Speaker 2: of someone's career nowadays. And so that was another interesting 1070 00:52:34,084 --> 00:52:36,883 Speaker 2: challenge is like, how do you tell the story of, 1071 00:52:37,564 --> 00:52:41,084 Speaker 2: you know, the biggest group band in the world? They've 1072 00:52:41,364 --> 00:52:44,783 Speaker 2: sold out like SoFi five nights in a row. And, 1073 00:52:45,614 --> 00:52:49,214 Speaker 2: um they've literally like yeah changed like i don't know 1074 00:52:49,234 --> 00:52:51,593 Speaker 2: if you knew like from back in the day um 1075 00:52:52,754 --> 00:52:56,694 Speaker 2: they um bts like donated like 1 million dollars to 1076 00:52:56,714 --> 00:53:01,904 Speaker 2: blm oh army matched that donation and army is the 1077 00:53:01,924 --> 00:53:05,123 Speaker 2: name of the fans yeah they're fan fandom um and 1078 00:53:05,183 --> 00:53:09,974 Speaker 2: so that's power like you know we talk about other artists. 1079 00:53:09,993 --> 00:53:11,173 Speaker 2: I don't want to, I don't want to get other 1080 00:53:11,243 --> 00:53:13,843 Speaker 2: artists coming after me, but like, uh, you know, how 1081 00:53:13,984 --> 00:53:19,363 Speaker 2: to activate your, your fans in a positive, empowering way. 1082 00:53:19,824 --> 00:53:21,683 Speaker 1: And also it's sort of, and how to sort of 1083 00:53:22,123 --> 00:53:24,924 Speaker 1: pay some respect to the fact that like, whether or 1084 00:53:24,964 --> 00:53:27,644 Speaker 1: not you grew up in Korea, the music you're doing 1085 00:53:27,683 --> 00:53:28,663 Speaker 1: is connected to black people. 1086 00:53:28,743 --> 00:53:29,123 Speaker 2: Totally. 1087 00:53:29,223 --> 00:53:29,443 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1088 00:53:29,683 --> 00:53:31,363 Speaker 2: I mean, all the best music is connected. 1089 00:53:31,484 --> 00:53:33,243 Speaker 1: Yeah. Fair. We can say that. But yeah, I think 1090 00:53:33,263 --> 00:53:35,363 Speaker 1: that like, and where, and I know this cause I, 1091 00:53:35,404 --> 00:53:37,303 Speaker 1: like I said, I don't follow in Jane Lee that 1092 00:53:37,324 --> 00:53:39,314 Speaker 1: like a lot of people, a lot of people in 1093 00:53:39,334 --> 00:53:42,554 Speaker 1: the K-pop industry aren't sort of making that connection. 1094 00:53:42,594 --> 00:53:46,294 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's, I could say, you know, from 1095 00:53:46,334 --> 00:53:49,934 Speaker 2: my perspective in spending time with BTS, they're in deep 1096 00:53:50,194 --> 00:53:53,314 Speaker 2: sort of admiration and know sort of the path that 1097 00:53:53,334 --> 00:53:56,573 Speaker 2: they follow in many ways. It's hard to like say 1098 00:53:56,634 --> 00:54:00,703 Speaker 2: it explicitly sometimes, but in sort of, I think a 1099 00:54:00,743 --> 00:54:05,823 Speaker 2: lot of ways, like it's pretty obvious. But I would say, yeah, 1100 00:54:06,263 --> 00:54:11,223 Speaker 2: to do this film Um, and just be a fly 1101 00:54:11,243 --> 00:54:14,984 Speaker 2: on the wall and, um, yeah, be able to witness 1102 00:54:15,004 --> 00:54:17,964 Speaker 2: the creative process. Like it's sort of like greatest night 1103 00:54:17,984 --> 00:54:21,283 Speaker 2: in pop, but like a longer form version of that. 1104 00:54:21,303 --> 00:54:24,524 Speaker 2: And just to, I think what's so fascinating to me 1105 00:54:24,564 --> 00:54:27,424 Speaker 2: about them is how there's like a parallel to the 1106 00:54:27,484 --> 00:54:29,964 Speaker 2: diaspora and just being a hyphenated American that they have 1107 00:54:30,004 --> 00:54:34,084 Speaker 2: to represent, you know, being Korean to the world, but 1108 00:54:34,324 --> 00:54:37,044 Speaker 2: they're also like these global icons and there's like so 1109 00:54:37,064 --> 00:54:40,283 Speaker 2: much more weight that they have to carry. than other 1110 00:54:40,364 --> 00:54:44,343 Speaker 2: artists who just like, you know, make some hits. They're like, oh, 1111 00:54:44,364 --> 00:54:46,864 Speaker 2: we got to make hits and we got to represent 1112 00:54:46,924 --> 00:54:49,143 Speaker 2: Korea to the world. Like that's a lot of pressure. 1113 00:54:49,183 --> 00:54:51,964 Speaker 1: But also there's sort of an implicit, like we're representing 1114 00:54:51,984 --> 00:54:54,303 Speaker 1: Korea to the world, but we also want to, we 1115 00:54:54,344 --> 00:54:57,524 Speaker 1: want to connect to the world. Like all the, like 1116 00:54:57,723 --> 00:55:00,744 Speaker 1: all the conversation around, I mean, I thought it was so, again, 1117 00:55:00,763 --> 00:55:02,984 Speaker 1: I don't know if this was, this is the bow 1118 00:55:03,044 --> 00:55:05,224 Speaker 1: part of it, but like there's a part of the 1119 00:55:05,243 --> 00:55:07,634 Speaker 1: movie where they're working on a song and the song 1120 00:55:07,714 --> 00:55:11,623 Speaker 1: references a Korean folk song that is known to Koreans, 1121 00:55:12,243 --> 00:55:15,214 Speaker 1: and they're sampling it, and they talk about how much 1122 00:55:15,254 --> 00:55:18,053 Speaker 1: of the sample should we use. If we use too much, 1123 00:55:18,114 --> 00:55:19,674 Speaker 1: I think the word corny is used, that one of 1124 00:55:19,714 --> 00:55:22,274 Speaker 1: them feels like it might be. Corny is the theme 1125 00:55:22,334 --> 00:55:22,553 Speaker 1: of this. 1126 00:55:22,574 --> 00:55:24,874 Speaker 2: You're going to title this episode something. 1127 00:55:24,973 --> 00:55:27,834 Speaker 1: Bow-win is corny. No, I'm just kidding. But, like, how 1128 00:55:27,873 --> 00:55:29,174 Speaker 1: much of this we use, because it might feel like 1129 00:55:29,194 --> 00:55:33,053 Speaker 1: we're also, or it might feel like we're being too patriotic. Like, 1130 00:55:33,074 --> 00:55:36,073 Speaker 1: we're sort of, like, being too chest-beaty about our patriotism. 1131 00:55:36,384 --> 00:55:38,254 Speaker 1: But also, there's a sense of, like, If we don't 1132 00:55:38,334 --> 00:55:41,413 Speaker 1: use enough of it, are we hiding from it? And 1133 00:55:41,714 --> 00:55:46,153 Speaker 1: just that conversation there was so great for somebody like 1134 00:55:46,223 --> 00:55:48,423 Speaker 1: me who was like, first of all, I was like, 1135 00:55:48,604 --> 00:55:52,004 Speaker 1: seven of them? There's seven of them? I knew there 1136 00:55:52,024 --> 00:55:56,183 Speaker 1: was a lot of them, but for these seven young people, 1137 00:55:56,283 --> 00:55:59,013 Speaker 1: young men to sort of have this conversation while also 1138 00:55:59,533 --> 00:56:01,754 Speaker 1: right over their shoulders, somebody from record company being like, 1139 00:56:02,194 --> 00:56:05,464 Speaker 1: you got three days left. Or you gotta turn it 1140 00:56:05,484 --> 00:56:07,843 Speaker 1: in today. So like the fact that they take time 1141 00:56:07,864 --> 00:56:11,003 Speaker 1: to have conversations. And so can you talk about, was that, 1142 00:56:11,604 --> 00:56:13,604 Speaker 1: I guess this is my big question is like, how 1143 00:56:13,663 --> 00:56:16,453 Speaker 1: familiar were you with BTS before you got involved? Because 1144 00:56:16,493 --> 00:56:18,413 Speaker 1: imagine that you had to do a deep dive once 1145 00:56:18,433 --> 00:56:18,913 Speaker 1: you got in there. 1146 00:56:19,373 --> 00:56:23,114 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I had been fans of them before 1147 00:56:23,174 --> 00:56:26,693 Speaker 2: the film started, but it was really when I got 1148 00:56:26,714 --> 00:56:29,004 Speaker 2: to see them live. I think anytime you experience a 1149 00:56:29,504 --> 00:56:32,223 Speaker 2: musician live, it just changes your whole perspective on them. 1150 00:56:32,524 --> 00:56:36,383 Speaker 2: And so I was fortunate enough to see them back 1151 00:56:36,484 --> 00:56:39,554 Speaker 2: when they did their run of shows at SoFi. And 1152 00:56:39,574 --> 00:56:44,613 Speaker 2: it's really funny. I joke about it now, but as 1153 00:56:44,694 --> 00:56:47,834 Speaker 2: a filmmaker, as a storyteller, you're thinking about mythologies and 1154 00:56:48,074 --> 00:56:50,473 Speaker 2: what are things from the past that you connect to 1155 00:56:50,694 --> 00:56:55,354 Speaker 2: the current day. And they had these long conversations with 1156 00:56:55,393 --> 00:56:57,734 Speaker 2: their fans during the concert, and they were all about 1157 00:56:57,774 --> 00:57:00,013 Speaker 2: to go off to military service. So yeah, the film 1158 00:57:00,053 --> 00:57:03,404 Speaker 2: is about them returning from military service to record this album. 1159 00:57:04,004 --> 00:57:06,904 Speaker 2: And when they were having this conversation with their fans, 1160 00:57:06,944 --> 00:57:09,004 Speaker 2: like the fans were just like, it was the loudest 1161 00:57:09,024 --> 00:57:11,223 Speaker 2: concert I've ever been to. I've been to like Rage 1162 00:57:11,243 --> 00:57:13,774 Speaker 2: Against the Machine, I've been to Camarello's Props, but like 1163 00:57:13,814 --> 00:57:17,274 Speaker 2: some loud concerts. But I've never heard screaming at a 1164 00:57:17,314 --> 00:57:19,573 Speaker 2: pitch at that level. It's also the pitch of the 1165 00:57:19,614 --> 00:57:20,814 Speaker 2: screaming is different. Yeah, yeah. 1166 00:57:20,854 --> 00:57:21,534 Speaker 1: But it was beautiful. 1167 00:57:21,714 --> 00:57:25,924 Speaker 2: And I, for me, it felt like almost like a 1168 00:57:26,004 --> 00:57:28,804 Speaker 2: Greek myth, like a Homeric myth of the odyssey where 1169 00:57:28,844 --> 00:57:34,274 Speaker 2: it's like you have, uh, BTS, they're like Odysseus and, uh, 1170 00:57:34,554 --> 00:57:37,093 Speaker 2: armies like Penelope, just like waiting for their heroes to 1171 00:57:37,134 --> 00:57:40,173 Speaker 2: return back. Um, and I was like, and I pitched 1172 00:57:40,214 --> 00:57:43,454 Speaker 2: that to their label and like, um, we don't know, 1173 00:57:43,514 --> 00:57:46,414 Speaker 2: maybe that's a little too pretentious. Uh, come back to 1174 00:57:46,514 --> 00:57:48,774 Speaker 2: us and then, you know, to the label's credit, they, 1175 00:57:49,474 --> 00:57:51,613 Speaker 2: you know, after they came back to military service, they're like, 1176 00:57:51,634 --> 00:57:53,794 Speaker 2: you remember that idea you had? Well, we're not going 1177 00:57:53,814 --> 00:57:56,494 Speaker 2: to do the Odyssey, but we'd love for you to 1178 00:57:56,514 --> 00:57:58,554 Speaker 2: like be part of this. And going back to your 1179 00:57:58,574 --> 00:57:59,674 Speaker 2: question about like sort of. 1180 00:58:00,274 --> 00:58:02,784 Speaker 1: So you were, you were pitching this or you were 1181 00:58:02,804 --> 00:58:04,923 Speaker 1: a part of this conversation before they even went into 1182 00:58:04,944 --> 00:58:05,204 Speaker 1: the army. 1183 00:58:05,264 --> 00:58:08,644 Speaker 2: I wanted to like be embedded in the military with them. Which, 1184 00:58:08,684 --> 00:58:12,084 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, Korea is still technically at war. 1185 00:58:12,144 --> 00:58:15,133 Speaker 2: It's like, they're not just like, it's not like Pete 1186 00:58:15,414 --> 00:58:17,694 Speaker 2: Hex of letting you embed yourself with. 1187 00:58:17,514 --> 00:58:19,764 Speaker 1: Pete Hex of taking kid rock on an elevator. 1188 00:58:19,804 --> 00:58:20,284 Speaker 2: Exactly. 1189 00:58:20,304 --> 00:58:20,843 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1190 00:58:20,864 --> 00:58:25,323 Speaker 2: They're actually, they're going through military service and they're very secretive. So, um, 1191 00:58:25,604 --> 00:58:28,584 Speaker 2: I couldn't do that film, but the return is, you know, 1192 00:58:28,624 --> 00:58:31,024 Speaker 2: is what this film is about. But like going back 1193 00:58:31,044 --> 00:58:34,294 Speaker 2: to the question about like how much of like sort 1194 00:58:34,314 --> 00:58:37,054 Speaker 2: of the Korean culture they embedded in the album. I 1195 00:58:37,054 --> 00:58:40,954 Speaker 2: think it's something we, it's like a metaphor for America 1196 00:58:40,974 --> 00:58:44,854 Speaker 2: in many ways. Like, especially again, hyphenated Americans, like, how 1197 00:58:45,094 --> 00:58:48,144 Speaker 2: Asian do you have, how Asian American you are, how 1198 00:58:48,284 --> 00:58:51,323 Speaker 2: Asian you are, how much is your Asian American being American? 1199 00:58:51,344 --> 00:58:54,943 Speaker 2: And so they have this very famous folk song called 1200 00:58:55,024 --> 00:58:58,874 Speaker 2: Arirang and they're trying to imbue it into the album. 1201 00:58:58,914 --> 00:59:01,554 Speaker 2: And they're like, how do we do it? And they 1202 00:59:01,574 --> 00:59:04,994 Speaker 2: have this conversation where it's like, well, when we put 1203 00:59:05,034 --> 00:59:07,714 Speaker 2: it into the album, it becomes our version of it. 1204 00:59:07,804 --> 00:59:11,004 Speaker 2: It's BTS's version of Ah Ryung. It's like how we 1205 00:59:11,024 --> 00:59:13,024 Speaker 2: think of like what our version of America should be. 1206 00:59:13,284 --> 00:59:15,654 Speaker 2: People tell us like, this is what the definition of 1207 00:59:15,734 --> 00:59:19,093 Speaker 2: America is. But I think the beauty of what we 1208 00:59:19,134 --> 00:59:21,593 Speaker 2: find about America is that it's ever changing. And I 1209 00:59:21,634 --> 00:59:24,794 Speaker 2: think I, it's something that came about while we were filming. 1210 00:59:24,834 --> 00:59:27,264 Speaker 2: It's not something that I realized like beforehand. And I 1211 00:59:27,284 --> 00:59:29,444 Speaker 2: thought that was beautiful to like make those connections to 1212 00:59:29,514 --> 00:59:32,764 Speaker 2: like everyone's sort of like in these liminal spaces of 1213 00:59:32,824 --> 00:59:35,524 Speaker 2: their identity and what they want to represent. And by 1214 00:59:35,604 --> 00:59:39,084 Speaker 2: being who you are representing, you know, who you are, 1215 00:59:39,164 --> 00:59:42,744 Speaker 2: that's how you become like It's almost like Bruce Lee, right? 1216 00:59:42,904 --> 00:59:45,894 Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Be water. It all comes back to Bruce Lee. 1217 01:00:03,844 --> 01:00:06,724 Speaker 1: It's only occurring to me as I say this that, like, Okay, 1218 01:00:06,744 --> 01:00:09,153 Speaker 1: so first of all, and I haven't seen this, but 1219 01:00:10,094 --> 01:00:11,613 Speaker 1: live from New York, he did live from New York 1220 01:00:11,694 --> 01:00:14,254 Speaker 1: in 2015, which is about SNL, which a lot of 1221 01:00:14,294 --> 01:00:15,974 Speaker 1: people have a lot of intense feelings about. And also 1222 01:00:16,014 --> 01:00:19,844 Speaker 1: it's covering a huge swath of American history. And lots 1223 01:00:19,864 --> 01:00:21,664 Speaker 1: of people who feel happy they were a part of SNL, 1224 01:00:21,684 --> 01:00:23,624 Speaker 1: lots of people who feel unhappy they were a part 1225 01:00:23,664 --> 01:00:26,424 Speaker 1: of SNL. And that's only extended in the last 11 years. 1226 01:00:26,924 --> 01:00:29,164 Speaker 1: You could do the update for that. Then you be water, 1227 01:00:29,224 --> 01:00:31,374 Speaker 1: and Bruce Lee fans, and I say this, are some 1228 01:00:31,394 --> 01:00:34,014 Speaker 1: of the most annoying people on planet Earth. It's just 1229 01:00:34,054 --> 01:00:36,693 Speaker 1: the truth. And I claim it. And luckily, I've sort 1230 01:00:36,714 --> 01:00:39,894 Speaker 1: of tried to de-annoy him. Because everybody who watched Bruce Lee, 1231 01:00:39,914 --> 01:00:43,184 Speaker 1: especially people my age, feel like they were the only 1232 01:00:43,244 --> 01:00:45,224 Speaker 1: one watching him at a certain period of time. Because 1233 01:00:45,404 --> 01:00:48,504 Speaker 1: he wasn't yet globally connected because of the internet. And 1234 01:00:48,564 --> 01:00:51,304 Speaker 1: so you had to deal with those fans. Then you 1235 01:00:51,324 --> 01:00:52,764 Speaker 1: do The Greatest Night in Pop. That's a bunch of 1236 01:00:53,004 --> 01:00:56,174 Speaker 1: the biggest egos in show business. And also, We Are 1237 01:00:56,204 --> 01:00:57,874 Speaker 1: the World, I think, is seen as a black song. 1238 01:00:57,974 --> 01:00:59,434 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying, even though there's lots of different 1239 01:00:59,454 --> 01:01:01,194 Speaker 1: people on it, but it's Lionel Richie, it's Michael Jackson. 1240 01:01:01,534 --> 01:01:02,474 Speaker 1: it's Stevie Wonder, it's Quincy Jones. 1241 01:01:02,494 --> 01:01:04,874 Speaker 2: You know, we found the one Asian person associated with the, 1242 01:01:05,334 --> 01:01:06,374 Speaker 2: with We Are The World. 1243 01:01:06,394 --> 01:01:07,153 Speaker 1: The camera guy? Yes. 1244 01:01:07,254 --> 01:01:10,624 Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, we gotta, we gotta represent. 1245 01:01:10,684 --> 01:01:13,224 Speaker 2: And Ken was like, he was such a great person, 1246 01:01:13,324 --> 01:01:16,104 Speaker 2: like interviewer, interviewee as well. And it was like, that's 1247 01:01:16,144 --> 01:01:17,343 Speaker 2: why representation matters. 1248 01:01:17,364 --> 01:01:19,104 Speaker 1: I feel like that. And also he was a guy 1249 01:01:19,124 --> 01:01:20,343 Speaker 1: who was like at the end, like, who do I 1250 01:01:20,384 --> 01:01:22,343 Speaker 1: give my invoice to? And they were like, nobody, you 1251 01:01:22,364 --> 01:01:25,573 Speaker 1: did it for free. Okay. So yeah, he's, Ken's great. 1252 01:01:26,034 --> 01:01:28,334 Speaker 1: Then you got the stringer, which is like you sort 1253 01:01:28,354 --> 01:01:30,234 Speaker 1: of wading into a thing, like you said, a generational 1254 01:01:30,254 --> 01:01:34,274 Speaker 1: divide and also about, about, uh, uh, Vietnam, uh, Vietnam, 1255 01:01:34,474 --> 01:01:38,054 Speaker 1: erasure and erasure of voices. And you saying the hero, we, this, the, 1256 01:01:38,284 --> 01:01:41,403 Speaker 1: our hero might be this guy, not this guy. And 1257 01:01:41,444 --> 01:01:46,124 Speaker 1: now you're poking the BTS army. How's that going? I mean, 1258 01:01:46,144 --> 01:01:48,604 Speaker 1: the film has gotten great reviews, so that's got to help, 1259 01:01:48,684 --> 01:01:51,544 Speaker 1: but what were you worried about that? Cause that's another, 1260 01:01:51,584 --> 01:01:53,784 Speaker 1: like the, you know, the stand culture is also its 1261 01:01:53,904 --> 01:01:56,164 Speaker 1: own separate, you know, you luckily didn't do one about 1262 01:01:56,184 --> 01:01:59,504 Speaker 1: Nicki Minaj, but, uh, But how was it to do that? 1263 01:01:59,584 --> 01:02:01,923 Speaker 1: How has it been? How has the Army accepted you? 1264 01:02:02,124 --> 01:02:06,394 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, going into it and having, like, talked 1265 01:02:06,474 --> 01:02:10,174 Speaker 2: to the members and seeing how they viewed it, because, 1266 01:02:10,334 --> 01:02:11,874 Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of pressure, right? 1267 01:02:11,894 --> 01:02:15,093 Speaker 1: And you can tell they feel the pressure of the 1268 01:02:15,194 --> 01:02:16,754 Speaker 1: Army when they're in the room, even when it's just 1269 01:02:16,774 --> 01:02:18,954 Speaker 1: the seven of them. Yeah. That the Army is there 1270 01:02:18,994 --> 01:02:19,414 Speaker 1: with them. 1271 01:02:20,254 --> 01:02:24,514 Speaker 2: I think it's like, I think. for artists, we, people 1272 01:02:24,554 --> 01:02:29,794 Speaker 2: who have given their time and their attention to our art, 1273 01:02:29,854 --> 01:02:32,194 Speaker 2: be it film or music, like we don't want to 1274 01:02:32,234 --> 01:02:34,374 Speaker 2: let people down. That's at the end of the day. 1275 01:02:35,014 --> 01:02:42,923 Speaker 2: And so I made this film, you know, in many 1276 01:02:42,954 --> 01:02:45,104 Speaker 2: ways for ARMY, because it was their glimpse into a 1277 01:02:45,404 --> 01:02:49,213 Speaker 2: very intimate time of the member's life. but also made 1278 01:02:49,274 --> 01:02:51,954 Speaker 2: it for people who aren't army as well and welcoming 1279 01:02:52,034 --> 01:02:55,653 Speaker 2: them into the group. And since the film has come out, 1280 01:02:56,214 --> 01:03:01,253 Speaker 2: it's been a majority of very generous and gracious messages. 1281 01:03:01,414 --> 01:03:03,934 Speaker 2: And I think it shows like sort of the spectrum 1282 01:03:03,974 --> 01:03:10,134 Speaker 2: of like what army represents. And no, it's just like, again, 1283 01:03:10,154 --> 01:03:13,443 Speaker 2: it's such a privilege. I say that this, after doing 1284 01:03:13,484 --> 01:03:17,744 Speaker 2: films about iconic pop songs and people like, I think, 1285 01:03:18,254 --> 01:03:21,734 Speaker 2: Being able to be the person who's in the room 1286 01:03:21,794 --> 01:03:25,054 Speaker 2: while it happens for this moment in BTS's career was 1287 01:03:25,094 --> 01:03:27,434 Speaker 2: the greatest privilege of my career so far. 1288 01:03:28,954 --> 01:03:31,254 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing about it being a fly 1289 01:03:31,274 --> 01:03:32,714 Speaker 1: on the wall thing. I'm like, he's the fly on 1290 01:03:32,734 --> 01:03:35,633 Speaker 1: the wall. And all these fans wish they could be 1291 01:03:35,694 --> 01:03:38,554 Speaker 1: you and be there with you. And I think you 1292 01:03:38,614 --> 01:03:42,194 Speaker 1: did do a very great job of letting those guys 1293 01:03:42,414 --> 01:03:45,374 Speaker 1: talk and just sort of be in a way that 1294 01:03:45,494 --> 01:03:46,754 Speaker 1: it felt very much like, we're just going to be 1295 01:03:46,774 --> 01:03:48,494 Speaker 1: over here filming. Now, I'm sure it's more than that. 1296 01:03:48,994 --> 01:03:51,613 Speaker 1: But it's just the idea that, as someone who was 1297 01:03:51,654 --> 01:03:55,384 Speaker 1: not super familiar with them, even though I'm not an army, 1298 01:03:55,494 --> 01:03:57,784 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm officially an army yet. They'll recruit 1299 01:03:57,824 --> 01:04:00,664 Speaker 1: you after this, yeah. But as someone who's been a 1300 01:04:00,704 --> 01:04:04,064 Speaker 1: huge fan of things, to feel like those people have 1301 01:04:04,084 --> 01:04:06,843 Speaker 1: to feel so excited about the fact that Bao just like, look, 1302 01:04:06,864 --> 01:04:08,964 Speaker 1: I'm going to put the camera here, and you get 1303 01:04:09,004 --> 01:04:10,884 Speaker 1: to watch them in ways you've never seen them before. 1304 01:04:11,304 --> 01:04:13,154 Speaker 1: And we're going to tell this story, but most of 1305 01:04:13,174 --> 01:04:14,734 Speaker 1: it is going to be you And in that sense, 1306 01:04:14,754 --> 01:04:16,974 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of a brave film because people 1307 01:04:16,994 --> 01:04:20,294 Speaker 1: like me, if you don't, you sort of have to 1308 01:04:20,314 --> 01:04:21,674 Speaker 1: like go in and just sort of submit to the 1309 01:04:21,714 --> 01:04:25,114 Speaker 1: film because it's not going to be like they were born, 1310 01:04:25,454 --> 01:04:27,254 Speaker 1: they went to this school. It's not going to give 1311 01:04:27,274 --> 01:04:28,754 Speaker 1: you the things that a doc like that often will 1312 01:04:28,794 --> 01:04:30,794 Speaker 1: give you. It's just sort of like one guy's getting 1313 01:04:30,814 --> 01:04:32,343 Speaker 1: dropped off at the house and they got to make 1314 01:04:32,384 --> 01:04:34,584 Speaker 1: an album and he's got to figure out how to 1315 01:04:34,624 --> 01:04:36,363 Speaker 1: get into the album that they've already started making. You 1316 01:04:36,404 --> 01:04:36,883 Speaker 1: know what I mean? 1317 01:04:36,904 --> 01:04:37,084 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1318 01:04:37,304 --> 01:04:37,503 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1319 01:04:37,564 --> 01:04:39,363 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same thing in a way like 1320 01:04:39,384 --> 01:04:42,343 Speaker 2: with Greatest Night in Pop where we're not giving everyone's 1321 01:04:42,424 --> 01:04:43,403 Speaker 2: like backstory. 1322 01:04:43,464 --> 01:04:43,604 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1323 01:04:43,984 --> 01:04:47,084 Speaker 2: It's just like you're placed in a moment that is 1324 01:04:47,184 --> 01:04:51,124 Speaker 2: special and that's unique. And you have the biggest group 1325 01:04:51,164 --> 01:04:54,744 Speaker 2: in the world making an album and returning to something 1326 01:04:54,804 --> 01:04:58,734 Speaker 2: and having this brotherhood. And I think that's connective to 1327 01:04:58,774 --> 01:05:01,934 Speaker 2: people beyond if you're a fan of their music or 1328 01:05:01,954 --> 01:05:05,254 Speaker 2: a fan of K-pop. We can all understand when our 1329 01:05:05,294 --> 01:05:07,854 Speaker 2: lives are disrupted by something and what it means to 1330 01:05:07,954 --> 01:05:08,894 Speaker 2: come back to something. 1331 01:05:09,714 --> 01:05:11,214 Speaker 1: Last two things I want to say about BTS and 1332 01:05:11,254 --> 01:05:12,844 Speaker 1: then we can move on because I really was like 1333 01:05:12,884 --> 01:05:16,534 Speaker 1: really just moved by in certain ways. One, I just 1334 01:05:16,574 --> 01:05:18,894 Speaker 1: kept sitting there the whole time being like, seven is 1335 01:05:18,934 --> 01:05:21,784 Speaker 1: too many people to be in one band. Like, I 1336 01:05:21,824 --> 01:05:24,304 Speaker 1: just felt anxiety whenever they would have a discussion. 1337 01:05:24,324 --> 01:05:25,864 Speaker 2: How many people are in Wu-Tang? 1338 01:05:26,164 --> 01:05:28,144 Speaker 1: That's too many people too. But also, here's what I 1339 01:05:28,144 --> 01:05:31,144 Speaker 1: would say about that. It's also RZA. It's like, you 1340 01:05:31,164 --> 01:05:33,184 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of people 1341 01:05:33,204 --> 01:05:35,633 Speaker 1: in Wu-Tang, but this is what I kept thinking about. 1342 01:05:35,974 --> 01:05:37,534 Speaker 1: There's a lot of people in the Foo Fighters, but 1343 01:05:37,594 --> 01:05:39,434 Speaker 1: it's Dave Kroll. There's a lot of people in, and 1344 01:05:39,454 --> 01:05:41,294 Speaker 1: so RZA gets to sort of like be a little 1345 01:05:41,314 --> 01:05:43,554 Speaker 1: bit of the like leader of the thing maybe i 1346 01:05:43,594 --> 01:05:45,394 Speaker 1: don't know but bts doesn't seem to have that same 1347 01:05:45,454 --> 01:05:48,174 Speaker 1: like there's not like a person who's like i'm the guy. 1348 01:05:47,994 --> 01:05:50,093 Speaker 2: I mean rm's like the spokesperson and he was like 1349 01:05:50,134 --> 01:05:52,954 Speaker 2: the first member but yeah one of the goals for 1350 01:05:52,974 --> 01:05:55,364 Speaker 2: me in this film too is like to show that 1351 01:05:55,634 --> 01:05:59,244 Speaker 2: each seven each of the seven members have a unique 1352 01:05:59,284 --> 01:06:00,704 Speaker 2: voice and opinion. 1353 01:06:00,684 --> 01:06:04,024 Speaker 1: Yes yeah that's that everybody feels free to share like 1354 01:06:04,064 --> 01:06:06,164 Speaker 1: i think about that like you know like the only 1355 01:06:06,184 --> 01:06:07,823 Speaker 1: band i can think of that that was close into 1356 01:06:07,864 --> 01:06:10,524 Speaker 1: this is like and this is an LA band, Fishbone, 1357 01:06:10,744 --> 01:06:12,624 Speaker 1: was like six guys who signed up for a group 1358 01:06:12,664 --> 01:06:14,984 Speaker 1: as teenagers. They all became a group when they were teenagers, 1359 01:06:15,044 --> 01:06:17,633 Speaker 1: six very independently minded dudes. And at some point, now 1360 01:06:17,654 --> 01:06:19,633 Speaker 1: there's two original members of the band, because at some 1361 01:06:19,654 --> 01:06:21,414 Speaker 1: point it's like, it's just too hard to hold this together, 1362 01:06:21,454 --> 01:06:23,814 Speaker 1: you know? But like, I just was like, I really 1363 01:06:23,914 --> 01:06:27,673 Speaker 1: felt in a great way, the anxiety of like, when 1364 01:06:27,694 --> 01:06:29,474 Speaker 1: the song is played with the folk song single, some 1365 01:06:29,494 --> 01:06:31,314 Speaker 1: of them are like, that's the best thing I've ever 1366 01:06:31,394 --> 01:06:33,034 Speaker 1: heard in my life. And then one of them would 1367 01:06:33,054 --> 01:06:36,544 Speaker 1: be like, can I say something? I just felt like, oh. 1368 01:06:37,254 --> 01:06:38,834 Speaker 1: It just was like, you could really feel the like, 1369 01:06:39,374 --> 01:06:41,334 Speaker 1: this has got to be hard to navigate for these 1370 01:06:41,394 --> 01:06:44,014 Speaker 1: seven people who are all in the prime of their careers, 1371 01:06:44,054 --> 01:06:44,904 Speaker 1: you know? Yeah. 1372 01:06:44,924 --> 01:06:46,624 Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of my favorite scenes where you 1373 01:06:46,684 --> 01:06:50,424 Speaker 2: see like J-Hope just like, it's a banger. It's a banger. 1374 01:06:50,464 --> 01:06:53,144 Speaker 1: And then he's like, he's like, I was like, no. 1375 01:06:53,224 --> 01:06:54,823 Speaker 2: And it's just like in that one scene, you see 1376 01:06:54,864 --> 01:06:57,324 Speaker 2: the dynamic and the different opinions. 1377 01:06:58,064 --> 01:06:59,684 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I just thought that was a great thing 1378 01:06:59,724 --> 01:07:01,604 Speaker 1: to show. The other thing I would say is I 1379 01:07:01,624 --> 01:07:04,694 Speaker 1: just recently read an article about, about i know it's 1380 01:07:04,714 --> 01:07:07,054 Speaker 1: an article it's an instagram post instagram post an article 1381 01:07:07,074 --> 01:07:08,494 Speaker 1: is not the same thing but that's how it works 1382 01:07:08,534 --> 01:07:10,133 Speaker 1: it will be the same thing yeah i just took 1383 01:07:10,174 --> 01:07:12,074 Speaker 1: it some content i guess by the way it's instagram 1384 01:07:12,114 --> 01:07:15,034 Speaker 1: post that sort of like highlighted all the sort of 1385 01:07:15,114 --> 01:07:18,434 Speaker 1: like lyrical mistakes rappers have made over the years one 1386 01:07:18,454 --> 01:07:21,554 Speaker 1: of them is like like uh little wayne was like 1387 01:07:22,074 --> 01:07:25,774 Speaker 1: was like i'm phenomenal that's spelled f like whatever he 1388 01:07:25,794 --> 01:07:29,454 Speaker 1: spells phenomenal with an f uh there's also like There's 1389 01:07:29,474 --> 01:07:32,073 Speaker 1: just like Run DMC apparently says, there's three of us, 1390 01:07:32,134 --> 01:07:33,834 Speaker 1: just like there are three of the Beatles. You know, 1391 01:07:33,894 --> 01:07:37,034 Speaker 1: there's just like times when rappers have made mistakes with 1392 01:07:37,054 --> 01:07:39,613 Speaker 1: the English language. And then to see those dudes sit 1393 01:07:39,654 --> 01:07:41,954 Speaker 1: there and figure out, like to have one of them go, 1394 01:07:41,974 --> 01:07:44,673 Speaker 1: can somebody, like they're talking about, can you send me 1395 01:07:44,954 --> 01:07:48,113 Speaker 1: the correct pronunciations of these English words? And clearly some 1396 01:07:48,134 --> 01:07:49,754 Speaker 1: of them know English better than others. And like, I'll 1397 01:07:49,794 --> 01:07:51,834 Speaker 1: send it to you. But also the idea of like, 1398 01:07:51,854 --> 01:07:54,654 Speaker 1: am I saying this right? And just the intensity of 1399 01:07:54,694 --> 01:07:58,024 Speaker 1: the pressure of like, we want to reach people in 1400 01:07:58,064 --> 01:08:00,104 Speaker 1: the English speaking world and people who are, who are 1401 01:08:00,144 --> 01:08:03,664 Speaker 1: familiar with English, but it's not easy. And then there's 1402 01:08:03,704 --> 01:08:05,524 Speaker 1: a debate about like how much Korean should be in here. 1403 01:08:05,864 --> 01:08:07,423 Speaker 1: I just thought, again, it's like things you don't normally 1404 01:08:07,474 --> 01:08:10,394 Speaker 1: think about with something that is pop, you know? Yeah. Yeah. 1405 01:08:10,514 --> 01:08:13,073 Speaker 2: No, it's, that's why I wanted the film to show. 1406 01:08:13,154 --> 01:08:14,734 Speaker 2: And I'm glad that you bring it up. Cause it's, 1407 01:08:14,954 --> 01:08:18,474 Speaker 2: there's a lot of thought that goes behind every single 1408 01:08:18,534 --> 01:08:21,934 Speaker 2: lyric and, you know, English is not their native language to, 1409 01:08:22,254 --> 01:08:25,784 Speaker 2: to sing in English and to rap in English. Like, again, 1410 01:08:25,864 --> 01:08:27,924 Speaker 2: trying to make bangers is hard enough, but trying to 1411 01:08:27,964 --> 01:08:30,943 Speaker 2: make bangers in a language that's not your native language 1412 01:08:31,004 --> 01:08:33,984 Speaker 2: is another level. And then you have the sort of 1413 01:08:34,304 --> 01:08:38,724 Speaker 2: pressure of representing your country. And yeah, there's layers of 1414 01:08:38,764 --> 01:08:39,564 Speaker 2: difficulty on that. 1415 01:08:39,604 --> 01:08:41,804 Speaker 1: That's why I walked away. This is like seven bad bunnies. 1416 01:08:42,004 --> 01:08:44,454 Speaker 1: Like this is like a bad bunny instead of one 1417 01:08:44,494 --> 01:08:47,294 Speaker 1: person with seven people. And you know, yeah, yeah. I 1418 01:08:47,314 --> 01:08:49,554 Speaker 1: just thought that like, It really did. And then it's funny. 1419 01:08:49,594 --> 01:08:51,474 Speaker 1: After it was over, I just rolled into the live concert. 1420 01:08:51,494 --> 01:08:53,004 Speaker 1: I was like, well, let me just see. Because I've 1421 01:08:53,044 --> 01:08:54,544 Speaker 1: never seen it before. Let me see it all put 1422 01:08:54,584 --> 01:08:57,004 Speaker 1: together live. And just it really did bring me– give 1423 01:08:57,024 --> 01:08:58,864 Speaker 1: me a new respect. And for you as a filmmaker 1424 01:08:59,424 --> 01:09:02,664 Speaker 1: to have so many different moves in your arsenal and 1425 01:09:02,684 --> 01:09:05,294 Speaker 1: to have so many different moves in your documentary storytelling, 1426 01:09:05,394 --> 01:09:07,054 Speaker 1: I was just really impressed because this was a move 1427 01:09:07,114 --> 01:09:10,434 Speaker 1: I didn't know you had. And it really– I just 1428 01:09:10,514 --> 01:09:14,504 Speaker 1: you know, by my mind, you are one of the, 1429 01:09:15,124 --> 01:09:17,624 Speaker 1: you're the preeminent documentary filmmaker of my time. 1430 01:09:18,284 --> 01:09:20,604 Speaker 2: That's, I don't know what to say, but. 1431 01:09:20,624 --> 01:09:23,964 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I didn't say definitive. Okay, great. 1432 01:09:24,004 --> 01:09:26,184 Speaker 1: I didn't say definitive, so preeminent. See, preeminent does a lot. 1433 01:09:26,484 --> 01:09:29,744 Speaker 1: I just think that when I look at your things 1434 01:09:29,784 --> 01:09:31,244 Speaker 1: and know what's coming, and then I know at some 1435 01:09:31,284 --> 01:09:33,204 Speaker 1: point you're going to drop another Beyonce track out of 1436 01:09:33,224 --> 01:09:34,444 Speaker 1: the sky, and I'm just going to be like, it 1437 01:09:34,504 --> 01:09:37,104 Speaker 1: really is inspiring, and I really appreciate you as a filmmaker. 1438 01:09:37,164 --> 01:09:40,124 Speaker 1: So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Before I let you go, 1439 01:09:40,684 --> 01:09:44,004 Speaker 1: can you give the audience a handful of docs that 1440 01:09:44,024 --> 01:09:46,624 Speaker 1: you'd be like, that aren't yours, docs that you feel like, 1441 01:09:46,904 --> 01:09:48,994 Speaker 1: these are docs I would like people to see more of, 1442 01:09:49,004 --> 01:09:54,384 Speaker 1: or a doc that I think is great? It could 1443 01:09:54,404 --> 01:09:54,684 Speaker 1: be a handful. 1444 01:09:54,704 --> 01:09:58,214 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think of some, especially that inspired BTS' return, 1445 01:09:58,574 --> 01:10:01,934 Speaker 2: like Stop Making Sense. I think that's one of the best, 1446 01:10:02,794 --> 01:10:07,434 Speaker 2: if not the best concert film ever. There's a little 1447 01:10:07,554 --> 01:10:11,834 Speaker 2: ode to that in our film, actually. I love Minding 1448 01:10:11,874 --> 01:10:16,154 Speaker 2: the Gap, Bing Liu's film. Just a great film about 1449 01:10:16,514 --> 01:10:21,624 Speaker 2: masculinity and growing up. Hoop Dreams is like a film... 1450 01:10:21,404 --> 01:10:23,324 Speaker 2: I mean, these are films that people have seen. No, no, no, 1451 01:10:23,344 --> 01:10:25,464 Speaker 2: but I think it's important to... Not everybody's seen them, 1452 01:10:25,504 --> 01:10:27,504 Speaker 2: but also it's important to sort of know what your 1453 01:10:27,524 --> 01:10:29,664 Speaker 2: sort of film DNA is. Yeah, I mean, Hoop Dreams 1454 01:10:29,684 --> 01:10:33,564 Speaker 2: was just like a film, probably the first documentary I saw, 1455 01:10:34,264 --> 01:10:38,394 Speaker 2: and it just kind of straddled the line between intimate 1456 01:10:38,414 --> 01:10:40,654 Speaker 2: and epic, and that's what I try to do in 1457 01:10:40,694 --> 01:10:43,894 Speaker 2: my films as much as possible. Like, you know, following 1458 01:10:44,074 --> 01:10:48,874 Speaker 2: these two young men across this journey of... the American 1459 01:10:48,944 --> 01:10:53,684 Speaker 2: dream and, um, just America. It's just a perfect portrait 1460 01:10:53,724 --> 01:10:56,964 Speaker 2: of America. Um, and it always sticks with me. 1461 01:10:57,004 --> 01:10:59,264 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm from Chicago. So hoop dreams was huge, especially 1462 01:10:59,284 --> 01:11:04,024 Speaker 1: in Chicago. Yeah. So we have anything else? Um, let 1463 01:11:04,064 --> 01:11:04,604 Speaker 1: me think. 1464 01:11:05,024 --> 01:11:09,354 Speaker 2: There's this great film called shirkers that, uh, is on Netflix. 1465 01:11:09,594 --> 01:11:11,954 Speaker 2: It's a film that will just surprise you in terms 1466 01:11:11,994 --> 01:11:15,374 Speaker 2: of like form. I just like films that surprise me. Like, um, 1467 01:11:15,874 --> 01:11:18,094 Speaker 2: if I go into a film and I know exactly 1468 01:11:18,154 --> 01:11:20,274 Speaker 2: what it is, like, you know, again, I talk about 1469 01:11:20,314 --> 01:11:23,974 Speaker 2: like the tension economy that we live in. And like, 1470 01:11:23,994 --> 01:11:26,774 Speaker 2: for me, I'm really grateful for the time that someone 1471 01:11:27,134 --> 01:11:29,844 Speaker 2: gives me to watch a film. So I want to 1472 01:11:30,004 --> 01:11:32,864 Speaker 2: feel like I'm being led by a deft hand. I 1473 01:11:33,584 --> 01:11:36,084 Speaker 2: find that with your film and your work. So you 1474 01:11:36,104 --> 01:11:39,364 Speaker 2: always like infuse, like, you know what a Kamau project is, 1475 01:11:39,444 --> 01:11:41,914 Speaker 2: which I think is important. So I think filmmakers who 1476 01:11:41,924 --> 01:11:45,644 Speaker 2: do that and have a voice and, not like a 1477 01:11:45,664 --> 01:11:49,604 Speaker 2: pretentious auteurship, but enough where they like respect the audience. 1478 01:11:49,964 --> 01:11:53,514 Speaker 2: So I think shirkers is a great film for that. And, um, 1479 01:11:55,134 --> 01:11:57,974 Speaker 2: there's a great film that came out last year called 1480 01:11:58,054 --> 01:12:03,634 Speaker 2: mistress dispeller. Um, that's like this sort of very modern, uh, 1481 01:12:03,834 --> 01:12:07,864 Speaker 2: perspective on love and dating in China. And I think, 1482 01:12:08,244 --> 01:12:09,204 Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, yes. 1483 01:12:09,324 --> 01:12:09,744 Speaker 1: I saw that. 1484 01:12:09,784 --> 01:12:11,984 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. 1485 01:12:12,564 --> 01:12:15,664 Speaker 1: Um, so yeah, those are, That's I'd say it's perfect. 1486 01:12:16,064 --> 01:12:17,584 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have known that you were going to say 1487 01:12:17,604 --> 01:12:18,964 Speaker 1: any of those, you know? So yeah. Great. Thank you 1488 01:12:18,984 --> 01:12:21,544 Speaker 1: for that. Uh, before I let you go, is there 1489 01:12:21,584 --> 01:12:24,544 Speaker 1: any cause or thing that you'd like to recommend people 1490 01:12:24,584 --> 01:12:28,504 Speaker 1: pay attention to or any nonprofit or charity or anything 1491 01:12:28,524 --> 01:12:30,324 Speaker 1: you want to say, support this thing? 1492 01:12:30,824 --> 01:12:36,534 Speaker 2: Um, I mean, as someone who comes from a refugee family, 1493 01:12:36,634 --> 01:12:39,034 Speaker 2: like I love the work that, you know, like the 1494 01:12:39,114 --> 01:12:44,344 Speaker 2: IRC does and there's a organization, um, Vote People SOS 1495 01:12:44,384 --> 01:12:46,684 Speaker 2: said specifically about Vietnamese refugees. 1496 01:12:46,704 --> 01:12:47,924 Speaker 1: Vote People SOS. Yeah. 1497 01:12:48,184 --> 01:12:51,784 Speaker 2: And I just think people who make that sacrifice to 1498 01:12:51,904 --> 01:12:56,104 Speaker 2: leave everything they know and take a risk for a 1499 01:12:56,204 --> 01:12:59,534 Speaker 2: better life for themselves, for their family, like we should 1500 01:12:59,714 --> 01:13:03,854 Speaker 2: be helping them as much as possible and not politicizing like, 1501 01:13:04,734 --> 01:13:09,754 Speaker 2: you know, from, I mean, every sort of moral school 1502 01:13:09,794 --> 01:13:13,444 Speaker 2: of thought, I think, Welcoming people with open arms, people 1503 01:13:13,484 --> 01:13:19,184 Speaker 2: who are the most vulnerable, disenfranchised, who, again, come with 1504 01:13:19,284 --> 01:13:23,314 Speaker 2: nothing and just want a better life for themselves and 1505 01:13:23,354 --> 01:13:26,494 Speaker 2: their family deserve all our support. 1506 01:13:26,794 --> 01:13:31,624 Speaker 1: IRC and Boat People SOS. Okay, cool. Last question. It's 1507 01:13:31,664 --> 01:13:32,834 Speaker 1: called Who's With Me? Are you with me? 1508 01:13:33,584 --> 01:13:34,284 Speaker 2: I am with you, Kamal. 1509 01:13:34,304 --> 01:13:37,934 Speaker 1: Okay, I thought so. After this interview, I'm no longer. 1510 01:13:38,014 --> 01:13:40,594 Speaker 2: I want to know who's not with you after. Tell 1511 01:13:40,634 --> 01:13:42,954 Speaker 2: me later. 1512 01:13:43,054 --> 01:13:45,834 Speaker 1: So far, everybody's been with me, but you embrace me 1513 01:13:45,874 --> 01:13:47,934 Speaker 1: even though I'm a little bit corny. I appreciate that. 1514 01:13:48,394 --> 01:13:49,314 Speaker 2: We're both corny together. 1515 01:13:49,334 --> 01:13:54,864 Speaker 1: We are. Thanks, man. Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening 1516 01:13:54,884 --> 01:13:56,784 Speaker 1: to this episode of Who's With Me with my guest, 1517 01:13:56,864 --> 01:14:00,584 Speaker 1: Bao Nguyen. Truly a great conversation. Love talking to the 1518 01:14:00,624 --> 01:14:03,924 Speaker 1: guy and an incredible artist. Check out So many of 1519 01:14:03,964 --> 01:14:08,064 Speaker 1: his documentaries. The Greatest Night in Pop, The Stringer. And 1520 01:14:08,084 --> 01:14:11,164 Speaker 1: you can also check out his latest documentary, BTS The Return, 1521 01:14:11,364 --> 01:14:15,924 Speaker 1: all available on Netflix. And then on Disney +, you 1522 01:14:15,954 --> 01:14:18,414 Speaker 1: can check out Be Water, the Bruce Lee doc. That 1523 01:14:18,454 --> 01:14:20,434 Speaker 1: is the first film I ever saw of Bowles. So yeah, 1524 01:14:20,474 --> 01:14:22,434 Speaker 1: luckily he's got a lot of things out there and 1525 01:14:22,454 --> 01:14:24,954 Speaker 1: they are in the most accessible places. Yes, you have 1526 01:14:24,974 --> 01:14:26,434 Speaker 1: to pay to go to those places, but at least 1527 01:14:26,494 --> 01:14:28,674 Speaker 1: they are not, you know, sometimes I have things out 1528 01:14:28,714 --> 01:14:30,554 Speaker 1: and I'm like, you have to download a new app. 1529 01:14:31,074 --> 01:14:32,514 Speaker 1: Probably don't have to download a new app for these. 1530 01:14:32,534 --> 01:14:35,054 Speaker 1: So thanks, Bao, for coming on. Bao mentioned a couple 1531 01:14:35,074 --> 01:14:39,794 Speaker 1: of organizations, the International Rescue Committee. For over 90 years, 1532 01:14:39,814 --> 01:14:43,304 Speaker 1: the International Rescue Committee, the IRC, has helped people affected 1533 01:14:43,344 --> 01:14:47,384 Speaker 1: by conflict and disaster. Today, we provide emergency relief wherever 1534 01:14:47,444 --> 01:14:51,584 Speaker 1: it's urgently needed and help communities rebuild around the world 1535 01:14:51,624 --> 01:14:56,914 Speaker 1: and across the United States. In 2025 alone, they've supported 1536 01:14:56,954 --> 01:15:00,674 Speaker 1: over 600,000 children and youth in learning programs. Over 2.5 1537 01:15:00,674 --> 01:15:03,774 Speaker 1: million people supported with and improved water supply services. It 1538 01:15:03,814 --> 01:15:06,594 Speaker 1: goes on and on. Over 700,000 people have been admitted 1539 01:15:06,634 --> 01:15:10,854 Speaker 1: to nutrition programs. Over 300,000 people have been served by resettlement, asylum, 1540 01:15:10,874 --> 01:15:13,834 Speaker 1: and integration programs globally. So they are actually doing the work. 1541 01:15:14,454 --> 01:15:16,644 Speaker 1: And of course, if you're doing the work of helping 1542 01:15:16,664 --> 01:15:19,084 Speaker 1: people who have been impacted, many of those people have 1543 01:15:19,104 --> 01:15:22,004 Speaker 1: been impacted by the United States. I'm thinking specifically about 1544 01:15:22,424 --> 01:15:25,224 Speaker 1: the war that we have on Iran right now. The 1545 01:15:25,304 --> 01:15:29,884 Speaker 1: other organization that Bao mentioned is Boat People SOS. And 1546 01:15:29,964 --> 01:15:32,394 Speaker 1: to tell you about them, Boat People SOS is a 1547 01:15:32,494 --> 01:15:36,914 Speaker 1: national Vietnamese-American nonprofit community-based organization with a long record of 1548 01:15:36,974 --> 01:15:41,274 Speaker 1: accomplishment of services since 1980. Our mission is to empower, organize, 1549 01:15:41,334 --> 01:15:44,544 Speaker 1: and equip Vietnamese individuals and communities in their pursuit of 1550 01:15:44,644 --> 01:15:47,384 Speaker 1: liberty and dignity. And of course, if you're talking about 1551 01:15:47,444 --> 01:15:50,184 Speaker 1: assisting Vietnamese people, then you know that they have been 1552 01:15:50,204 --> 01:15:52,693 Speaker 1: at the bad end of the United States stick. before. 1553 01:15:52,774 --> 01:15:55,094 Speaker 1: So we need to help the people that we have harmed, 1554 01:15:55,134 --> 01:15:57,444 Speaker 1: not me and you, we haven't harmed them, but our 1555 01:15:57,684 --> 01:16:00,224 Speaker 1: government and our country has harmed them. And we, if 1556 01:16:00,264 --> 01:16:03,324 Speaker 1: we have the ability to do something, we can help them. 1557 01:16:03,364 --> 01:16:05,444 Speaker 1: And when I give these nonprofits out, I don't want 1558 01:16:05,464 --> 01:16:07,113 Speaker 1: you to feel like you have to donate every time. 1559 01:16:07,514 --> 01:16:09,894 Speaker 1: One thing you can do is just spread the word 1560 01:16:09,954 --> 01:16:12,234 Speaker 1: on social media. Just all you got to do is 1561 01:16:12,274 --> 01:16:15,094 Speaker 1: spread the link on your, on your blue sky or 1562 01:16:15,134 --> 01:16:18,254 Speaker 1: your threads. If you're on Instagram, take a screen grab 1563 01:16:18,314 --> 01:16:20,304 Speaker 1: of the website and just say, Hey, I just heard 1564 01:16:20,324 --> 01:16:22,434 Speaker 1: about this on who's with me. So you don't have 1565 01:16:22,454 --> 01:16:24,234 Speaker 1: to have money to support all these every week. If 1566 01:16:24,274 --> 01:16:26,714 Speaker 1: you do, good for you. You're doing well. And if not, 1567 01:16:26,874 --> 01:16:28,974 Speaker 1: it's just about spreading the word so people out there 1568 01:16:28,994 --> 01:16:31,554 Speaker 1: can hear about more ways to help people. Because one 1569 01:16:31,584 --> 01:16:33,244 Speaker 1: of these may resonate with somebody and go, oh, I 1570 01:16:33,284 --> 01:16:35,224 Speaker 1: didn't know about that. And I have a connection to 1571 01:16:35,284 --> 01:16:37,164 Speaker 1: that or I feel connected to that. So please just 1572 01:16:37,184 --> 01:16:40,084 Speaker 1: spread the word. And while you're spreading the word, this 1573 01:16:40,124 --> 01:16:44,104 Speaker 1: is an awkward segue into capitalism. This weekend, Friday and Saturday, 1574 01:16:44,124 --> 01:16:46,724 Speaker 1: September 25th and 26th, I'll be at the New York 1575 01:16:46,764 --> 01:16:51,074 Speaker 1: Comedy Club in Stanford, Connecticut. For shows, early shows, late shows, 1576 01:16:51,094 --> 01:16:53,244 Speaker 1: you'll come to the early shows. You know, I know 1577 01:16:53,254 --> 01:16:55,804 Speaker 1: who you are. I know how my audience is. But yeah, 1578 01:16:55,824 --> 01:16:58,564 Speaker 1: so come out. Again, it's not that far from New York, apparently. 1579 01:16:58,624 --> 01:17:00,444 Speaker 1: Maybe like an hour, depending on where you are. So 1580 01:17:00,504 --> 01:17:01,924 Speaker 1: if you can drive out there, do. But if not, 1581 01:17:01,964 --> 01:17:04,484 Speaker 1: if you're in Connecticut, please come out. See me this weekend. 1582 01:17:04,964 --> 01:17:09,724 Speaker 1: And then also pre-order my new book with Adam Mansback, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. 1583 01:17:10,204 --> 01:17:12,504 Speaker 1: If you go to Talk Shop Live, you can also, again, 1584 01:17:12,544 --> 01:17:14,344 Speaker 1: get an autographed copy. Or you can pre-order it the 1585 01:17:14,384 --> 01:17:17,474 Speaker 1: old-fashioned way from your favorite independent bookstore in your neighborhood. 1586 01:17:17,794 --> 01:17:20,804 Speaker 1: All right. Thank you. And again, as always, thanks to 1587 01:17:20,844 --> 01:17:24,914 Speaker 1: Rappaport Productions, Pushkin Industries, and who knows Best Productions, which 1588 01:17:24,964 --> 01:17:27,934 Speaker 1: is me and my wife. Special thanks to Chris Dowd 1589 01:17:27,974 --> 01:17:30,894 Speaker 1: from Fishbone. Happy birthday to Chris Dowd. He had a 1590 01:17:30,914 --> 01:17:32,454 Speaker 1: birthday recently, and I talked to him, and I didn't 1591 01:17:32,474 --> 01:17:34,854 Speaker 1: realize his birthday was coming up. Happy birthday, Chris Dowd. 1592 01:17:35,134 --> 01:17:39,464 Speaker 1: Wish Chris Dowd the Dow Jones on Instagram. And also, again, 1593 01:17:39,524 --> 01:17:42,264 Speaker 1: as we say, do something good for yourself, for your community, 1594 01:17:42,644 --> 01:17:43,464 Speaker 1: and for the world.