Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Today the tables are turned on the Psychology
Speaker 1: podcast as Andrew Yang interviews me. This conversation, which originally
Speaker 1: appeared on Andrew's podcast, Yang Speaks, is a really meaningful
Speaker 1: one for me as I was a big supporter of
Speaker 1: Andrew's presidential campaign and now I'm a big supporter of
Speaker 1: his mayoral NYC campaign. Andrew and I share a very
Speaker 1: similar humanistic viewpoint, and it was great to finally get
Speaker 1: together in a discussion with him about the need to
Speaker 1: reimagine education and my revised hierarchy of needs. Without further ado,
Speaker 1: I bring you my discussion with Andrew Yang. It is
Speaker 1: my pleasure and privileged. I've been looking forward to this
Speaker 1: ever since he and I connected to Welcome to Yang Speaks. Psychologists, author,
Speaker 1: actualizer of human potential. Pretty much everyone who wants good
Speaker 1: things in their lives should be listening to this man.
Speaker 1: Scott Barry Kaufman, Scott, welcome to the podcast. What a
Speaker 1: dream this come true. This is for me. I've wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to you for a long time. It's such
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. Well, I felt the same way.
Speaker 1: You're such an incredible thinker and your work is so
Speaker 1: up my Alley, it's pretty wild. Likewise, it's bidirectional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. I feel like both of us have been
Speaker 1: approaching some of the same problems from kind of different angles.
Speaker 1: What would love for you to introduce yourself so that
Speaker 1: people can get a sense of your background. You have
Speaker 1: a PhD in cognitive psychology from Yale, you studied in
Speaker 1: the UK. I think you have like a BS and
Speaker 1: also cognitive science from Carnegie Melloner or one of these other,
Speaker 1: very very frankly like esteemed institutions. But tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit more about yourself, like how you arrived at
Speaker 1: that point and how you became passionate about studying how
Speaker 1: people frankly can be like happier, healthier, stronger. Sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'm a humanistic psychologist and I have a training
Speaker 1: in cognitive science. But I'm really interested in understanding what
Speaker 1: it means to be human, what it means to be
Speaker 1: a vital human, to live a life of meaning and
Speaker 1: purpose and creativity. And I really got interest in this
Speaker 1: topic as a young kid when I was put in
Speaker 1: special education for a learning disability that I had, and
Speaker 1: I felt as though the kids that were in the
Speaker 1: classroom with me in the special ed classroom were capable
Speaker 1: of so much greater things than anyone gave them credit for.
Speaker 1: And do you have a sense as to why they
Speaker 1: put you there or identified you in that way? Yeah? Well,
Speaker 1: I had an auditory processing disability that just made it hard.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of food in my ears, so
Speaker 1: it just made it hard for me to process things
Speaker 1: in real time. I have a friend who had a
Speaker 1: son who had that issue and then you know, like
Speaker 1: his teachers categorized him as like, you know, like having
Speaker 1: a learning issue and really you just couldn't hear stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean that's all it was. Yeah, and they took
Speaker 1: that extra couple milliseconds and some sort of indication that
Speaker 1: I was stupid. And not only that, but I was
Speaker 1: also like I definitely wasn't odd ball in terms of
Speaker 1: my creativity and my imagination. Like when all the other
Speaker 1: kids were sitting in the circle listening to the teacher
Speaker 1: read a story, I was running around in my Superman cape.
Speaker 1: So there definitely were they didn't know what to do
Speaker 1: with me, for sure, But I was put in special
Speaker 1: Ed and I just I remember, even at a very
Speaker 1: young age that I just thinking to myself, you know,
Speaker 1: there's got to be a way to show the teachers
Speaker 1: and parents what my friends are capable of here in
Speaker 1: Special Ed. I mean, they are capable of so many
Speaker 1: amazing things. And then you know, I got into this
Speaker 1: field wanting to study intelligence, and so that was my
Speaker 1: entryway into the field was the cognitive science of intelligence
Speaker 1: and IQ testing. Wow, this is a very fraud topic.
Speaker 1: I mean, and you you were ahead of the curve
Speaker 1: as you've been studying this for decades at this point,
Speaker 1: so tell us more well. So I was kept in
Speaker 1: special until ninth grade, and I remember sitting there bored
Speaker 1: out of my mind. Were supposed to be taken untimed test,
Speaker 1: they would remove me from the mainstream room history history
Speaker 1: classroom and put me in a special room to take
Speaker 1: an untimed test. I remember thinking to myself, like, if
Speaker 1: this is untimed, by the rest of my life to
Speaker 1: finish this test. So I'm like checked out, like this
Speaker 1: is boring, and Special ED teacher took me aside who
Speaker 1: had never seen me before, and after class she just said,
Speaker 1: I think I see you. It was like a terrifying moment.
Speaker 1: I was like, what is she seeing? But She's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that you know why are you
Speaker 1: still here? You know, I can tell that you're you're
Speaker 1: you're clearly uh not challenged. And it quickly turned from
Speaker 1: like why am I here? To like, yeah, why am
Speaker 1: I here? And I called my mom. I ranted the
Speaker 1: payphone and I called my mom and I said, hey, Mom,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not reporting back to special let ever again.
Speaker 1: And she's like, can we talk about this when we
Speaker 1: get home. But I set up a school a whole
Speaker 1: meeting with like the school superintendent and uh and the
Speaker 1: school psychologists and everything, because I was the first one
Speaker 1: in like warmer in high school, you know, the school
Speaker 1: district to break out a special head. I was the
Speaker 1: first one to come, you know, the stud the student
Speaker 1: themselves say you know what, I'm out of here. And
Speaker 1: they said we'll let you out on a trial basis,
Speaker 1: which didn't feel like a great vote of confidence. They said, like,
Speaker 1: if you get out and you fail all your classes,
Speaker 1: you're coming back. So I said, okay, well I'm going
Speaker 1: to prove you all wrong. And one semester I went
Speaker 1: from a d remedial I wasn't supposed to ever go
Speaker 1: to college to like straight a honor student in one semester.
Speaker 1: Now and then you kept putting up straight a's. I
Speaker 1: assumed for a while to go to, you know, a
Speaker 1: place like except for dance class. Except for dance class
Speaker 1: in college. I got to see, yeah, well you're a
Speaker 1: dance class at Carnegie Mellon, which I did not know. Well,
Speaker 1: there's actually so this is more. This is more to
Speaker 1: the story. This is kind of interesting. The reason why
Speaker 1: I was in dance classes is because I was so
Speaker 1: determined to study intelligence and psychology that I went and
Speaker 1: I auditioned for the opera program at Carnegie Mellon so
Speaker 1: I could still get into Carnegie Mellon. It turned out
Speaker 1: that I had some music talent. My grandfather was a
Speaker 1: cellist with the Philadelphia Orchestra, and I was taking voice
Speaker 1: lessons and I sang my heart out, and I got
Speaker 1: a scholarship to Carnegie Mellon for my opera singing, and
Speaker 1: then I transferred in through the back door to psychology
Speaker 1: once I got there. That's incredible. So you were such
Speaker 1: a talented singer that you could actually get into college
Speaker 1: on that basis. When did that talent become evident? After
Speaker 1: I got out of special ed in high school, I
Speaker 1: signed up for everything because I became, I was like,
Speaker 1: what am I capable of? You have to understand Andrew,
Speaker 1: I had no prior to that moment at my education system,
Speaker 1: I only viewed myself as this disabled, broken kid, you know.
Speaker 1: And then so I signed up for everything I signed up.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna do West Side Story, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do this and this, And I was joking one
Speaker 1: day with my friends. I had a friend who was
Speaker 1: in the choir and I was I was in there
Speaker 1: and I was joking because I was like, you all
Speaker 1: sound like this, oh oh. And then the choir teacher
Speaker 1: was like that's really freaking good, Like are you an opera?
Speaker 1: Like do you have training? And I was like no,
Speaker 1: I'm making fun of you all. And so it turned
Speaker 1: out like, you know, I actually have an aperatic voice.
Speaker 1: Who knew who knew? And then I started to take
Speaker 1: some lessons and I fell in love with like Ley
Speaker 1: Miz and my dream was to be Javert and that
Speaker 1: was my audition song at Carnegie Mellon was Stars from
Speaker 1: Ley Miz. What a story. So then when you went
Speaker 1: to college on the basis of your musical talent, did
Speaker 1: you know the entire time that you were going to
Speaker 1: frankly divert your energies from music to these other pursuits,
Speaker 1: or did you show up thinking maybe I will make
Speaker 1: a thing of this music career and then go to
Speaker 1: Broadway And the rest of it was that a thought.
Speaker 1: There was a thought that if I never got into
Speaker 1: the psychology program, that I, you know, I'll be I'll
Speaker 1: just be on Broadway. That's fine, I'll settle. I'll settle
Speaker 1: for Broadway. But but what happened is I discovered I
Speaker 1: took a course on cognitive psychology with Anne Fey at
Speaker 1: Carnegie Melon and I was reading this textbook and and
Speaker 1: I got to this the chapter on intelligence, and it
Speaker 1: was Howard Gardner calls us a crystallizing experience. There's this
Speaker 1: moment in your life where you suddenly realize, oh, that's
Speaker 1: what I meant to be doing on this AE. And
Speaker 1: I looked at the front cover and it said Robert Sttererenberg,
Speaker 1: Yale University, you know, who was the author of the book.
Speaker 1: And in that moment, I said, that's it. I'm going
Speaker 1: to study with Robert Scherenberg. I'm gonna do everything that
Speaker 1: it takes. I'm going to like be the grittiest mother Beeper,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I can curse on your podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the the grittiest person you know, be
Speaker 1: a person ever. And I'm gonna make it into Yale
Speaker 1: and study with Robert Sternberg because he's he just he
Speaker 1: just inspired me so much with his thoughts about intelligence.
Speaker 1: Then he had creative and practical intelligence. He said, we're
Speaker 1: important in addition to analytical intelligence, and I said, that's
Speaker 1: exactly what I've been saying since I was five years old.
Speaker 1: There are these ideas you have out there, and then
Speaker 1: when someone puts it into a term, you're like, yes,
Speaker 1: and it's such a gift to the world. I try
Speaker 1: my best to take the advantage of that in ways
Speaker 1: big and small. Where As an example, when I'm on
Speaker 1: a team and then someone said like, hey, we should
Speaker 1: do this particular project, and I get excited about it,
Speaker 1: my first move is to name the project. Because as
Speaker 1: soon as you name something, then it becomes much more
Speaker 1: real to people. So two of the first steps I
Speaker 1: take are number one, you name it, and then number
Speaker 1: two you look at someone and say, and now you
Speaker 1: are going to be responsible for a project, you know,
Speaker 1: red table or whatever it is. So it's great that
Speaker 1: you encountered that in Professor Sternberg, and then you got
Speaker 1: hooked and you ended up getting a PhD from Yale,
Speaker 1: like studying with him. Yeah, that's exactly right. I did
Speaker 1: a cold email. I said, can I be your personal
Speaker 1: assistant intern for free over the summer. I'll come to Yelle,
Speaker 1: do anything you want. I was doing that with everyone
Speaker 1: I was also studying. I don't know if you have
Speaker 1: you ever heard of Herbert Simon, the Nobel Prize winner,
Speaker 1: Herbert Herb Simon. He studied us. He came up with
Speaker 1: the idea of satisficing that most people don't actually choose
Speaker 1: the best decision. They're like good enough. They choose decisions
Speaker 1: that are good enough. Right. Give that man a Nobel
Speaker 1: prize exactly? Yeah, yeah, that's what he I mean. It
Speaker 1: was a brilliant idea, you know, at the time, because
Speaker 1: I believe it or not, Economists at the time had
Speaker 1: no I didn't didn't even It didn't even dawn on
Speaker 1: them that that's how humans make decisions. They just assumed
Speaker 1: that humans were maximizers. Isn't that interesting? No, we're not.
Speaker 1: We're not maximizers. We're definitely satisfycers. I studied with Herb
Speaker 1: Simon and he took me under his wing as well,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, teach me everything. I just
Speaker 1: like everyone I could find, I said, teach me everything.
Speaker 1: I cold call, cold emailed the head of this Cambridge
Speaker 1: University psychology department. I said, can I just like take
Speaker 1: off a year of Carnegie Mellon and go to England
Speaker 1: and will you teach me everything about IQ? He was
Speaker 1: one of the leading IQ researchers, and I thought that
Speaker 1: I it'd be really cool for me to keep my
Speaker 1: own past a secret and not tell any of these
Speaker 1: IQ researchers about that, Like their tests are what limited
Speaker 1: me in my life. But just try to learn the
Speaker 1: truth and just try to like just like make a
Speaker 1: contribution to the field. So they would take me seriously somedays,
Speaker 1: so that could then change the field. But I knew
Speaker 1: that I had to learn the classics, so to speak.
Speaker 1: It's a very patient approach, Scott. It's a very impressive
Speaker 1: patient of determined. Determined. One of the very large aspects
Speaker 1: of the way that our kids get measured in school
Speaker 1: is really their ability to conform to whatever behavior is
Speaker 1: going on around them, you know, what I mean, like
Speaker 1: like if you're not sitting quietly in the circle or
Speaker 1: you know, repeating back what you need to repeat, then
Speaker 1: that's actually a very very serious problem, you know, in
Speaker 1: a school setting, and you can easily find yourself put
Speaker 1: in in specialized or some other category because of those
Speaker 1: kinds of issues. And then the second thing, and this
Speaker 1: is not you, but I've talked to a lot of
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and shockingly high proportion of them were dyslexic as kids.
Speaker 1: Actually true of some entertainers too, And so these kids
Speaker 1: are dyslexic, they come in the classroom like they have
Speaker 1: trouble processing information the way that other people do. Teachers
Speaker 1: think that they're like completely you know, like useless and
Speaker 1: like don't you know, like like shouldn't be anywhere near anything.
Speaker 1: But then a lot of them wind up finding really
Speaker 1: creative ways to do their school work, to do projects,
Speaker 1: to get things done, and then a shockingly high proportion
Speaker 1: them wind up becoming very successful entrepreneurs because they just
Speaker 1: apply that to the real world in a particular way.
Speaker 1: There's something going on with our school system where it's
Speaker 1: rewarding a certain degree of behavioral conformity in a particular
Speaker 1: form of intelligence, and then if you're another type of human,
Speaker 1: you can easily find yourself relegated to this like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, never go to college, Like, might as well
Speaker 1: just prepare yourself for like a particular type of life
Speaker 1: kind of tracking system that I know that I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're like violently against giving both your experiences and your work.
Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate of gifted education. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not anti intelligence, I'm not anti ability or talent. But
Speaker 1: I think that we have very misguided notions of the
Speaker 1: different pathways that one can achieve giftedness and one can
Speaker 1: achieve their ultimate dreams in their lives. We have very
Speaker 1: narrow sort of metrics. And I've been arguing for a
Speaker 1: humanistic education. I call it humanistic education that treats students
Speaker 1: as human first. I think you might might like, yeah,
Speaker 1: uz that my presidential campaign slogan was humanity first. When
Speaker 1: you saw that, you were like, did they take it
Speaker 1: from me? Acknowledgement? Please? Yag I've been saying that for
Speaker 1: ten years. Yeah, but that's why I was like, I was,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm so, I was so on bored. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you saw all my tweets, I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going when you're ruting for president, I was definitely
Speaker 1: supporting the heck IDIA. But but no, I'm really all
Speaker 1: about a school system that treats students not as like
Speaker 1: what score they could appear on a test, but that
Speaker 1: views them as the totality of who they are, and
Speaker 1: sometimes that does include intelligence. So I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: one of these extreme anti IQ kind of researchers. I
Speaker 1: think that there are kids who have extraordinarily high aqs
Speaker 1: and they're not served well by the school system. My
Speaker 1: argument is more that no students are being served by this.
Speaker 1: So you've now written several important books that each put
Speaker 1: forward very important ideas, and I think one of your
Speaker 1: earlier books talked about what you call the dual process
Speaker 1: theory of human intelligence, which struck me as related to
Speaker 1: this idea of the fact that there are different forms
Speaker 1: of intelligence than this kind of very linear academic analytic
Speaker 1: that we measure, particularly through standardized tests and the like.
Speaker 1: And so was this your original research. Was this something
Speaker 1: that you developed over an extended period of time alongside
Speaker 1: other folks who've been looking at this for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this was an insight that I had when I was
Speaker 1: doing my PhD work, I knew that I wanted to
Speaker 1: go beyond the standard metrics of IQ, but I wanted
Speaker 1: to do it in a very systematic way that would
Speaker 1: earn me the respect of my fellow intelligence researchers. I
Speaker 1: did just want to like say, you all are stupid,
Speaker 1: you know, like like the whole field sucks. No, I
Speaker 1: wanted to actually do something meaningful. And when I was
Speaker 1: looking to the literature, at dawned on me that almost
Speaker 1: all these IQ tests are all at the conscious level,
Speaker 1: a conscious reasoning, and and it always and there are
Speaker 1: people who seem to intuitively learn things that they were
Speaker 1: never explicitly taught. Is this related to what people call
Speaker 1: street smart? Yeah it is, Yeah, you know what, Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a core component of street smarts, absolutely,
Speaker 1: But it's also the core component of social skills, you know,
Speaker 1: being able to like earn the patterns of the social world.
Speaker 1: But also just like beauty nature, I mean, it goes deep,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's there's these there are these deep unconscious
Speaker 1: learning mechanisms that we share with other animals. You know,
Speaker 1: other animals aren't aren't aren't good at IQ tests, but
Speaker 1: they're intell they still have an adaptive intelligence. You know.
Speaker 1: We we do have these really inten diligent systems, unconscious
Speaker 1: intuitive systems. And my question that I was curious about
Speaker 1: is what is the relationship between those who are really
Speaker 1: quick at picking things up intuitively versus those who are
Speaker 1: good at IQ tests. And my hypothesis was that they'd
Speaker 1: be uncorrelated. Now, this was believe it. This was a
Speaker 1: believe it or not. This was a controversial hypothesis because
Speaker 1: intelligence researchers had been studying IQ for one hundred years
Speaker 1: and they said, forget it. You're never going to find
Speaker 1: anything that's not correlated with IQ. We no one has ever.
Speaker 1: And I said, I think I found to Like so okay,
Speaker 1: So I created this test and I published this in
Speaker 1: our flags flagship journal called Cognition, where I reported a
Speaker 1: zero correlation between intuitive intelligence ability and IQ ability. Wow,
Speaker 1: so I called. I was so excited. I mean, this
Speaker 1: was like really exciting. I was like I made a
Speaker 1: contribution to the field in some way. I mean that's
Speaker 1: all I wanted to do, was just like to be
Speaker 1: like considered, you know, like I could make a real intellectual,
Speaker 1: hefty contribution to the field. My father was a professor,
Speaker 1: my grandfather was a professor, my uncle was a professor.
Speaker 1: My brother is a professor. So being a professor is
Speaker 1: kind of the family thing. I'm kind of the academic
Speaker 1: grunt of the litter. So so I just wanted you
Speaker 1: to know that I understand when you say, like I
Speaker 1: wanted to make an intellectual contribution, because when you're in
Speaker 1: that environment, like you want to put forward like a
Speaker 1: big idea or finding that is novel and groundbreaking. It's
Speaker 1: funny though, because you know, when looking back on it now,
Speaker 1: it's like I put so much work into to impress
Speaker 1: five people, like you know, like it's not like, you know,
Speaker 1: the amount of people working in that really narrow niche
Speaker 1: of the field, like maybe five, you know, five people
Speaker 1: that I impressed. You made this this discovery or you
Speaker 1: found that intuitive learning was uncorrelated you know, with this
Speaker 1: other more standard measure, and so like what that happened then,
Speaker 1: was there like this massive level of attention. It opened
Speaker 1: up a whole world for me, and that world is
Speaker 1: called activity. So what I discovered once I discovered was
Speaker 1: able to operationalize and actually measure in a reliable and
Speaker 1: valid way this what this intuitive intelligence kind of ability.
Speaker 1: I found that it was predicting forms of creative achievement
Speaker 1: in particularly in the arts, much much more than i Q,
Speaker 1: much much more than wow. This is like this sort
Speaker 1: of creative dimensions test wow or measure not test measure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: an indicator. Yeah. It got the interest of a bunch
Speaker 1: of people. So my Colin de Young was a post
Speaker 1: doc at Yale with me at the time, and his
Speaker 1: grad student was a man called Jordan Peterson. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you ever heard of that guy. And and
Speaker 1: so he hops on board that we get this published
Speaker 1: and this paper, show this follow up paper. So I
Speaker 1: had I did that initial paper, but then I did
Speaker 1: this follow up paper showing that that if you want
Speaker 1: to predict the arts achievement, it really is all about
Speaker 1: this openness to experience. It's all about this ability to
Speaker 1: really go uh uh, be open to your kind of
Speaker 1: inner emotions and appreciation of the patterns of beauty, you know,
Speaker 1: and these sorts of things. And that is that's an
Speaker 1: important skill that we don't even we don't even like
Speaker 1: appreciate it as important at all. We definitely do not, brother,
Speaker 1: I mean that that is for sure. I was around
Speaker 1: kids when I was young, at these things called nerd camps.
Speaker 1: They were run by Johns. Hopkins. So it's like the
Speaker 1: opposite extreme of kids who frankly, you know, did very
Speaker 1: well on various aaronized tests. And then you talk about
Speaker 1: how folks who are more intuitively intelligent maybe have degrees
Speaker 1: of social skills or creativity or you know, let's call
Speaker 1: it like you know, judgment or problem solving any things
Speaker 1: like that. Like, these were the nerdiest kids ever, Like,
Speaker 1: and I was right there with them. You know, It's
Speaker 1: like I'm not excluding myself, but if you were to
Speaker 1: put them into put us into a situation that required
Speaker 1: some degree of like intuitive problem solving or social skills
Speaker 1: or whatnot, like we would have all been atrocious. Like
Speaker 1: it was the most socially awkward group of adolescents and
Speaker 1: pre adolescents that one can imagine, like just straight out
Speaker 1: of whatever stereotypical you know thing you have. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, back in the eighties at that time would
Speaker 1: be like kind of Revenge of the Nerds type material.
Speaker 1: So so there was always I get this feeling that
Speaker 1: there was like some sort of like an inverse relationship
Speaker 1: between like a degree of book smartness and social skills
Speaker 1: and street smarts or common sense. Andrew, you know, I
Speaker 1: did go to Carnegie Mellon and I the one of
Speaker 1: the nerdy. I mean, I felt at home. I finally
Speaker 1: felt like I came home. I actually then added, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't really, I don't think I've ever told this
Speaker 1: on a podcast, but actually ended up adding on a
Speaker 1: computer science degree from there as well. Before I left,
Speaker 1: I was just like, I felt so at home with
Speaker 1: the nerds, and I mean I joined a fraternity, but
Speaker 1: it was like we're nerds in a fraternity, you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, so I it was. It was a
Speaker 1: really nice feeling coming home. And also it can be
Speaker 1: comfortable to be a nerd and to be among your
Speaker 1: friends and not have the pressure to have social skills.
Speaker 1: So there's a wonderful thing about the pressure to have
Speaker 1: social skills. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. It's true,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's a wonderful thing. So after you'd
Speaker 1: identified this other measure or scale of intuitive intelligence, like
Speaker 1: I feel like that would have led to like a
Speaker 1: lot of other research, a lot of other folks trying
Speaker 1: to dig in and see if there were other qualities
Speaker 1: that they could have a measure for. Is that correct.
Speaker 1: There was a turning point in my life where I
Speaker 1: was teaching at n y U right after I graduated,
Speaker 1: and I was doing that kind of research. But then
Speaker 1: Martin Seligman, who's the founder of the field of positive psychology.
Speaker 1: Have you heard of Martin Seligman by chain? Yes? Okay? Cool?
Speaker 1: And I genuinely love positive psychology. Oh cool. So he's
Speaker 1: like the founder of the field and he just put
Speaker 1: like plucks me up. He's like, hey, we're starting a
Speaker 1: new cent called the Imagination Institute here at Penn Do
Speaker 1: you want to run it? And I was like yeah,
Speaker 1: So I just quit everything. I was like peace n YU,
Speaker 1: you know, and I and I and this was great
Speaker 1: because keep in mind I was born and raised in Philly,
Speaker 1: so this was a chance for me to come back
Speaker 1: and be closer my parents. And so so that really,
Speaker 1: you know, things happen in life that are unexpected, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't expect, you know, Martin selg you know, be like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you wanna do you wanna? I think you're the
Speaker 1: man for the job. So I ended up for three
Speaker 1: I spent four years in my life at Penn and
Speaker 1: I studied and my whole research interest and everything shifted
Speaker 1: so focused on what is the human imagination and how
Speaker 1: does that We were curious in how that differs from
Speaker 1: like intelligence for instance, for instance in the brain, and
Speaker 1: we published some neuroscience studies on this, but we also
Speaker 1: funded a lot of researchers to come up. We held
Speaker 1: a call, open call for everyone in the world who
Speaker 1: can come up with the next imagination test, like creativity test,
Speaker 1: you know, And so we funded like fifteen projectors. So
Speaker 1: we also went and had about ten different domains of
Speaker 1: human endeavors. We brought like the most famous, like most
Speaker 1: imaginative people across different fields from humor to math, to physics,
Speaker 1: to a wide range of things to spirituality, and we
Speaker 1: have these imagination retreats where we scan their brains and
Speaker 1: then we try to understand what the special source of
Speaker 1: creativity is. Wow, that was four years of my life.
Speaker 1: Four years of my life. Yeah, So what do more
Speaker 1: human centered schools look like in practice? Have you come
Speaker 1: across the future project may chance? Yes, there's an educational
Speaker 1: organization where they put in an office of a dream
Speaker 1: director in the school system and any student can go
Speaker 1: to the office of Dream Director and say well, this
Speaker 1: is my dream. This is you know, I have this
Speaker 1: idea or this this goal, like I want to end bullying.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to make the world a
Speaker 1: better place. And the dream director is like, great, let's
Speaker 1: help get you there, and they help give mentors and
Speaker 1: resources to help them realize their projects. The kind of
Speaker 1: shift I want to make is a shift from a
Speaker 1: culture of evaluation to a culture of inspiration. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of my tagline, from evaluation to inspiration, because we're
Speaker 1: we spend so much time in our school system right
Speaker 1: now evaluating a valuing of valuing that we have no
Speaker 1: time left over to actually activate the potential at all.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like what are we doing here? People?
Speaker 1: You know, like we're devoting like virtually one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of our time to be like okay, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: here's stuff, did you learn it? Here's stuff did you
Speaker 1: learn it? Here's stuff exactly exactly. Here's your test. Here's
Speaker 1: your score, here's your score. Next, here's your next score.
Speaker 1: Here's your next score. It's sole it's not it's I mean,
Speaker 1: for these students, it's it's it's soul sucking. Right, So
Speaker 1: I want to kind of put the soul back into
Speaker 1: the human the human that that might have sounded too wilou,
Speaker 1: but I want to put the human human back into
Speaker 1: the education system where we treat students as human first,
Speaker 1: and I think that we can have self actualizing schools
Speaker 1: where the schools UH care first and foremost about the
Speaker 1: self actualization of students, not the test scores of the students.
Speaker 1: And of course knowledge is important. I mean, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to make this extreme argument and say you know,
Speaker 1: no math forever. I'm not saying that, don't worry, you
Speaker 1: can calm down. I know you like math. I do too. Well.
Speaker 1: One of the things I just want to let you know, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm very open to the fact that, and
Speaker 1: this is data driven, is that arts and drama really
Speaker 1: help kids, right exactly. Yeah, like college readiness goes up,
Speaker 1: interesting college goes up, you know, like that, so you
Speaker 1: should know I'm very, very open to the fact that
Speaker 1: arts and creativity should be central in our education, particularly
Speaker 1: as most people know, like if you're concerned that AI
Speaker 1: and technology are going to do a lot of rote
Speaker 1: tasks and so you know, trying to teach our kids
Speaker 1: to become better processors and robots themselves is probably a loser. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: so you know so like I'm not just like this
Speaker 1: pro math person. And on that front, there's a whole
Speaker 1: new emerging field of positive education as well that has
Speaker 1: various pillars. So if you tackle positive education is a
Speaker 1: good tagline, just like positive psychology is a good time
Speaker 1: like positive education, because a lot of education does seem
Speaker 1: kind of negative right now, it really does. Which do
Speaker 1: you like better, humanistic education or positive education? Positive somehow,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be funny. Maybe instead of humanistic,
Speaker 1: you'd just be like human education like that that actually
Speaker 1: makes me laugh. But there there is something to that word.
Speaker 1: I mean, I obviously love the word human like you
Speaker 1: know again, it was like one of our main ideas.
Speaker 1: But to me, like human education, like there is something
Speaker 1: inhuman about our educational system right now, I mean that
Speaker 1: that is happening. Well, maybe we need a positive humanistic education,
Speaker 1: Like let's get all the word passive education is good
Speaker 1: because there was also a sense that our current educational
Speaker 1: system is a little bit negg. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: like you know, conformist. It's preparing kids for an economy
Speaker 1: that really has not existed for decades and you know,
Speaker 1: like there are other things like that that you can
Speaker 1: look at about our current system. Well, it's incredible You've
Speaker 1: become like this champion of creativity, imagination, intuition, and it
Speaker 1: really is like at a whole different access than a
Speaker 1: lot of our current schools are teaching at. So what
Speaker 1: is that movement looking like? Like what is that energy?
Speaker 1: So you've got like sealing men and pen You've got
Speaker 1: like but like what does it look like? Grit large
Speaker 1: and who are like the major figures in addition to
Speaker 1: you that are trying to push things in a more
Speaker 1: human direction. So they have big positive education conferences, you know,
Speaker 1: with like thousand thousand people from all over the world,
Speaker 1: you know come to these conferences. But you know, if
Speaker 1: you if I can just give some shout outs, Peggy
Speaker 1: current over in Australia is leading the way of positive
Speaker 1: education in Australia. It's for some reason, England and Australia
Speaker 1: in addition to the US, are the ones that are
Speaker 1: most interested in positive education. And you know, virtually all
Speaker 1: of Australia and England educators come to these conferences. So
Speaker 1: that's really big over there. But there are certain schools,
Speaker 1: Like even in Philadelphia, Shipley School is leading the way
Speaker 1: in terms of the entire schools based on a positive
Speaker 1: education model. So there are schools that have this. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and there I could name schools in Australia that are
Speaker 1: that are that are doing this. It's very interesting to me,
Speaker 1: Scott that you cite international sources, because I have this
Speaker 1: sense that's been building over the last number of years
Speaker 1: that American culture and thus a lot of our schools
Speaker 1: are really really mechanical, hyper competitive in a particular way,
Speaker 1: like it kind of built to like kind of trying
Speaker 1: to crush like a bunch of people through a gate
Speaker 1: that can only accept like like some you know, like
Speaker 1: like very small proportion of them, and that we're all
Speaker 1: kind of trained this way that there's like a real
Speaker 1: sort of competitive savagery to like a lot of like
Speaker 1: the American system, and that extends from our educational institutions
Speaker 1: to our economy, which now our economy is like the
Speaker 1: most savage, winner take all thing that you know in
Speaker 1: human history at this point. And so when you talk
Speaker 1: about people who work on positive education, like you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: the yaw sees the UK, and I'm just like, like
Speaker 1: you know, come on America, like we like, America genuinely
Speaker 1: needs like a massive expansion of humanity. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: so well put it that I wanted you to be
Speaker 1: president again. I'm just gonna repeat that again. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna repeat that again, like that would have been such
Speaker 1: an amazing thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. No, but
Speaker 1: the expansion of humanity is absolutely what we need. But
Speaker 1: if I may, if I may, just go even a
Speaker 1: little bit further to more concrete proposals, because I really
Speaker 1: do believe in bringing data. I believe in evidence. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't want to make arguments. You know, if
Speaker 1: you try to build something on just ideology, for instance,
Speaker 1: that's like building something on you know, a sand castle,
Speaker 1: you know, like you need it to have evidence based
Speaker 1: to a certain degree, and you have to be flexible
Speaker 1: to update the evidence in light of new information. So
Speaker 1: I think that these following basic human needs are things
Speaker 1: we need to learn more in an education system, and
Speaker 1: they have a really strong evidence based in positive psychology
Speaker 1: and humanistic socology for them. So need for connection, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a big one in our school system right now,
Speaker 1: kids are profoundly only of course, right now being virtual,
Speaker 1: that's even worse. And then so you have a need
Speaker 1: for safety and that can include, you know, feeling as
Speaker 1: though your environment is that you have a secure attachment
Speaker 1: to your environment. You know, attachment theory comes into play here.
Speaker 1: It's important to have a secure attachment to your not
Speaker 1: just your parents. But we don't often talk about the
Speaker 1: necessity of having a secure attachment to your teacher, you know,
Speaker 1: like who's who's talking about that? You know, And what
Speaker 1: that just means is that you feel like you know
Speaker 1: they have your back if you fail, if you fall down,
Speaker 1: you know that you can trust. There's trust in your environment.
Speaker 1: We have a real trust crisis right now in America
Speaker 1: with each other. The next one in my revised hierarchy
Speaker 1: of needs is the need for self esteem. But I
Speaker 1: specifically talk about healthy self esteem versus narcissism. We do
Speaker 1: see a lot of narcissism around, you know, in the
Speaker 1: in the current generation. Would I say that the current
Speaker 1: generation of kids get mad at me? A lot of
Speaker 1: it's social media, man, I mean that there's like a
Speaker 1: real you know, I mean you literally have numbers attached
Speaker 1: to how many people like you exactly exactly. But that's
Speaker 1: different So narcissism is, you know, how do you think
Speaker 1: you're you're better than others. But just a healthy self
Speaker 1: esteem is that you just think you're worthy. And I
Speaker 1: do think we have a crisis of people feeling as
Speaker 1: though there are a lot of people do not genuinely
Speaker 1: feel like they are are worthy. And you know, and
Speaker 1: you the argument in a Scientific American article that this
Speaker 1: is tied to the way we're treating people through things
Speaker 1: like the economy or the lack of universal based income.
Speaker 1: It was one of the points in my campaign was like, look,
Speaker 1: if you had universal based income and then you could
Speaker 1: all look at your child and say, your country loves you,
Speaker 1: your country values you, and you're gonna be all right,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna invest in you. Like you know. And
Speaker 1: and as someone who's run organizations, I've made this argument,
Speaker 1: it's like you can always tell if an organization is
Speaker 1: investing in you and if it's not. It takes you
Speaker 1: approximately two days to figure out if an organization's a
Speaker 1: yes to get you and right now. Sometimes yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like right by the second day, you're like okay, I
Speaker 1: like I see what's going on here. And this is
Speaker 1: one reason why when organizations put on these frankly kind
Speaker 1: like sometimes sort of like overdone or ridiculous like trainings
Speaker 1: or boot camps or in like rituals and whatnot. No
Speaker 1: matter how like frankly like dumb it is, it actually
Speaker 1: still shows like a form of investment, like they're trying,
Speaker 1: they're willing to like spend company time, like you know,
Speaker 1: like whatever the training rig moral is, that's actually an
Speaker 1: excellent sign in the scheme of things, even though some
Speaker 1: of those things are you know, a little handhanded. So
Speaker 1: right now, our country, in my opinion, is not investing
Speaker 1: in people in a genuine way, and people are kind
Speaker 1: of picking up on it. And then it's like like
Speaker 1: do you feel like you are worth something? You know,
Speaker 1: you can put on a brave face, but then like
Speaker 1: when you press on it, like a lot of people
Speaker 1: you know are struggling with it. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And we're not we're not listening
Speaker 1: to each other's suffering, you know, we're we're kind of
Speaker 1: putting our own suffering in a lot of ways is
Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways we're not realizing that
Speaker 1: a lot of other people are really going through a
Speaker 1: lot of this same kind of suffering, even if it
Speaker 1: takes a different form basic need. The basic need is unfulfilled.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, it would be wonderful if
Speaker 1: we could rally around the common humanity of the basic
Speaker 1: needs that are being unfulfilled, versus making everything into a
Speaker 1: coalitional thing where you know, our suffering is so different
Speaker 1: you would never understand, you know, I mean, I just
Speaker 1: want to move towards a world where we try to
Speaker 1: understand at least well, well well, these are universal needs you've
Speaker 1: identified that it'd be very hard for anyone to argue against.
Speaker 1: It's like, look like, shouldn't each of us have, you know,
Speaker 1: like a feeling of connectedness and safety and esteem and
Speaker 1: so so. The values you're identifying right now are something
Speaker 1: of a recasting of Maslow's hierarchy of needs in your
Speaker 1: latest book, which I believe is called transcend Is that right?
Speaker 1: This book came out fairly recently, I want to say,
Speaker 1: just last year. Oh well, yeah, I know. Well, for
Speaker 1: those of you have the video that there's a copy of,
Speaker 1: like the book, what's the stud here, what's the still here?
Speaker 1: Go ahead and read the subtitles. Got yeah, it's the
Speaker 1: New Science of Self Actualization. The new science of self actualizations.
Speaker 1: Let's continue past the need for esteem excellent. So, first
Speaker 1: of all, Masoll never drew a pyramid. So that's a
Speaker 1: big misconception I talk about in the book that everyone
Speaker 1: you know, everyone knows the peer the pyramid with like
Speaker 1: Wi Fi at the bottom or paper at the bottom,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a meme. It turns out Maslow never
Speaker 1: drew a pyramid. So I have a sell boat metaphor.
Speaker 1: So I argue that we have a boat that needs
Speaker 1: not have too many holes. In eurose you don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: But if you if you just have all your holes,
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you if you just have
Speaker 1: the boat secure, you're still not going to go anywhere
Speaker 1: unless you open up the sails and and and and
Speaker 1: risk going knowing that the winds could come crashing down anytime,
Speaker 1: knowing that I don't know if that was right metaphor winds.
Speaker 1: I don't know if wins crashed down. But anyway, you
Speaker 1: see what I'm saying, waves crashing down, waves crashing down, wins,
Speaker 1: you still need to go. Which is the bottom of
Speaker 1: the boat. Is that safety is that conected this? And safety?
Speaker 1: So the boat is security and and the sale is growth.
Speaker 1: And the three needs that comprise security are these for safety, connection,
Speaker 1: and self esteem. So the ones we just discussed was
Speaker 1: the boat, Like we already just all I got it.
Speaker 1: That's the boat. That's the boat. And if you can
Speaker 1: have those three needs secure, you feel like you can
Speaker 1: start to explore the world in a way that you
Speaker 1: feel vulnerable. Yes, I love it. And this is one
Speaker 1: of the arguments I was making, which was like, look like,
Speaker 1: you can't get people concerned about climate change if they
Speaker 1: can't put food on their table that day, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so so you have to address
Speaker 1: like the connected, the safety, and esteem. So what does
Speaker 1: the mast look like like? How so if you open
Speaker 1: the sale, Yes, if you open the sale. So whereas
Speaker 1: the base of security is safety, the base of the
Speaker 1: sale is exploration. The need for exploration is a really
Speaker 1: deeply evolved need we share with other animals, but takes
Speaker 1: unique manifestations in humans. Because we can bring in the intellect,
Speaker 1: we can bring in intellectual curiosity. That was another finding
Speaker 1: that I that I that I found in my dissertation
Speaker 1: research was that intellectual curiosity was not the same thing
Speaker 1: as i Q. I found it was only about a
Speaker 1: point five zero correlation. So there's some very bright people
Speaker 1: that are totally in curious, not curious at all, yes,
Speaker 1: not not one iota, not one iota. So being able
Speaker 1: to do what we call in our research, we call
Speaker 1: it cognitive exploration. So you can have behavioral exploration like
Speaker 1: you know, like Columbus set sail and you know that's
Speaker 1: the physical adventure seeking, but you can also have cognitive
Speaker 1: exploration like the human imagination, you know, like is just
Speaker 1: like are you reading books and stuff? You know what
Speaker 1: I mean? But you're talking about that they need to explore, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So that's the base and if you can go so
Speaker 1: when you open the sale, you are moving with the
Speaker 1: spirit of exploration. You're not driven, You're not driven by
Speaker 1: fear anymore. See, this is the distinction that Masula made
Speaker 1: between deficiency motivation versus growth motivation. When you're when you
Speaker 1: have a deficiency motivation everything in your life, what you're
Speaker 1: trying to do is to make the world comport to
Speaker 1: your own uh, deficiency motivation. Exactly. We're living in a
Speaker 1: deficiency motivated nation, that's correct, that's what you know. The
Speaker 1: language I used on the campaign was mindset of scarcity
Speaker 1: but it's it's the same, the same thing, exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: so you know, because when you're hungry, right, you're saying
Speaker 1: feed me. When you're when you're profoundly lonely, you say,
Speaker 1: you know, like me. When you don't feel like you've respect,
Speaker 1: then you start say respect me, I deserve respect. But
Speaker 1: but all of that takes the flavor of the deficiency realm.
Speaker 1: If you in existence, when you can get to the
Speaker 1: if you can uh get to the being realm of
Speaker 1: human existence or the growth realm and open up that sale,
Speaker 1: you are no longer driven by what you are deficient in.
Speaker 1: You uh, you're you're very forward looking, and you you're
Speaker 1: driven by a spirit of exploration of the unknown, and
Speaker 1: you're okay with the unknown. But most importantly, you have
Speaker 1: what Maso called be love, love for the being of others.
Speaker 1: It's you can think of it maybe like universal love.
Speaker 1: But I've tried to make the case in my book
Speaker 1: that the need for connection is different than be love.
Speaker 1: You can be very very connected to people that share
Speaker 1: similar political beliefs or religious beliefs, or in your inn group,
Speaker 1: and have a lot of hate for anyone that you
Speaker 1: perceive to be in your outgroup. But when you have
Speaker 1: being love, you really have a deep, abiding love for
Speaker 1: the being of everyone that you meet. There's kind of
Speaker 1: a sacredness to the unique system. Is that the sales
Speaker 1: up a fifth thing after the need to exect word, Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly that's exactly right, So exploration and then be love.
Speaker 1: And then the third one is the need for purpose.
Speaker 1: So I argue it's a whole system. Okay, So if
Speaker 1: you're driven by a spirit of exploration, you have a
Speaker 1: humanitarian kind of loving sort of orientation. It's like, look,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I love people that you may disagree
Speaker 1: with me or like I don't have certain things with exactly,
Speaker 1: and you have a sense of purpose. So from this
Speaker 1: sailing metaphor, you have a very clear vision of what island,
Speaker 1: where you're going, where you're going, even though you might
Speaker 1: be very far away from your going, and even though
Speaker 1: you know there's gonna be a lot of setbacks. There's
Speaker 1: gonna be like the sea is unknown, you know, like
Speaker 1: that's life, folks. I'm sorry to like tell you, and
Speaker 1: Santa Claus doesn't exist, you know, in the sense say,
Speaker 1: like you know, life, there's gonna be a lot of
Speaker 1: unknowns and and but you still have to go, you
Speaker 1: still have to move. So so one side of the
Speaker 1: ledger's deficiency motivation, the other one is growth motivation. Is
Speaker 1: that right growth or mas we called it the being
Speaker 1: realm of human existence. Sometimes he uses those two chings,
Speaker 1: the B realm, the B realm. So I think most
Speaker 1: people listening to this can easily understand and relate to
Speaker 1: the need for connected as connect in this safety and esteem.
Speaker 1: You know, if those those things aren't present, then it's
Speaker 1: very very difficult to feel like, you know, you can
Speaker 1: make positive things happen, or even that you know you
Speaker 1: deserve things like you know, do deserve a thousand bucks
Speaker 1: a month? I mean, you know. And then the the
Speaker 1: higher order needs are around the ability to explore to
Speaker 1: love people that aren't like you necessarily and then have
Speaker 1: a purpose. And you know, if you ask many people,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, like what is your purpose, they'll
Speaker 1: look at you like, you know, like like it's a
Speaker 1: very very odd question, frankly, and I think there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people that think, like even trying to
Speaker 1: ascertain your purpose is like a very privileged pursuit because
Speaker 1: at that point it must be that your other needs
Speaker 1: are being met. And this is all tied together where
Speaker 1: there are so many Americans who are struggling right now
Speaker 1: in ways big and small that you know, it's like
Speaker 1: like trying to have some when trying to address some
Speaker 1: of these higher questions, a lot of them aren't in
Speaker 1: position to be able to consider them very rightfully, so,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's one reason why as a society,
Speaker 1: we have to do a much better job of trying
Speaker 1: to address people's sense of safety and connectedness and esteem
Speaker 1: from day one. And I think our schools are not
Speaker 1: doing a good job of those things. It's not just schools,
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is, like one of the things
Speaker 1: I said on the campaign trails that schools control about
Speaker 1: thirty five percent of our kids educational outcomes, and then
Speaker 1: the other two thirds are family environments, income level, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: type of neighborhood, number of words read to them when
Speaker 1: they're child, stress levels in the household, like all of
Speaker 1: these things. And so we're holding our schools in some
Speaker 1: ways to an impossible standard because you know, if like
Speaker 1: a kid's going home to an environment where they're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to learn, it's like well, or
Speaker 1: in this case, you know, maybe they haven't been in
Speaker 1: school for a year, you know, like, and so they're
Speaker 1: going to show up and you know their their ability
Speaker 1: to catch up is going to be more constrained or diminished.
Speaker 1: But this is an incredible framework and it's something that
Speaker 1: I think most everyone can understand and would agree with.
Speaker 1: And it kind of builds on and adapts Maslow's work
Speaker 1: in a way that's I think very directed and actually
Speaker 1: more practical in a way, because like I think we've
Speaker 1: all heard Maslow's hierarchy of needs and then you're like,
Speaker 1: all right, like see the pyramid, where whereas I feel
Speaker 1: like your work is a little bit more instructive, like
Speaker 1: it moves us in a direction, and and these are
Speaker 1: the ideas from your book, transcend the new science of
Speaker 1: self actualization. That's right, Yeah, that's right. And has the
Speaker 1: response to this book been but probably I'm sure it
Speaker 1: has been. I'm sure a lot of people are excited
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I'm really really pleased at the reception
Speaker 1: in the field of psychology. Just almost just universal kind
Speaker 1: of that that seems very modest to say that universal praise,
Speaker 1: But it's like if that's but like I don't know
Speaker 1: how to say it in a way that I I
Speaker 1: don't come people like it. It's okay, yeah, don't like it.
Speaker 1: People like it. I've just been very, very pleased with
Speaker 1: the reception. Aaron Beck who the founder of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Speaker 1: He's ninety eight, He's ninety nine years old, and he
Speaker 1: wrote burb he said, this is a significant advance in psychology.
Speaker 1: And so that was a wow, such high praise. That
Speaker 1: must have been so meaningful to you. That was like
Speaker 1: I was in tears, you know, yeah, yeah, that must
Speaker 1: have really given you some b love. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: you're fulfilling your purpose, Scott. I mean you really are
Speaker 1: fulfilling your purpose. It's actually so are you Like tremendous
Speaker 1: to see. And I think when someone when when someone's
Speaker 1: doing the kind of work that you can feel like
Speaker 1: comes from a very deep place within them and it's
Speaker 1: happening like people do sense it. I think that's one
Speaker 1: reason why people are drawn to you. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: doing what you're meant to do for sure, and you're
Speaker 1: making such incredible contributions. If someone wants to keep up
Speaker 1: with you, support your work, find out more about your ideas,
Speaker 1: like how how can they follow you or get in touch. Oh,
Speaker 1: thanks Andrew. Well, my web page Scott Barret Kaufman dot com.
Speaker 1: I have kind of everything everything there, so my podcast,
Speaker 1: I host the Psychology Podcast, which all the episodes can
Speaker 1: be found on there. And I have free of resources section.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're a parent, you're a teacher, or
Speaker 1: you're just a you're an adult and you want to
Speaker 1: self actualize, I have lots of free resources, so I
Speaker 1: kind of put everything there on my web page. I
Speaker 1: also have on there some tests self actionation tests I
Speaker 1: developed and scientific validated. They can tell you what your
Speaker 1: main sources of self action. But I also have a
Speaker 1: test that tells you where you are on the dark
Speaker 1: side or the light side of the Star Wars Force.
Speaker 1: It actually is a scientifically validate test that can kind
Speaker 1: of tell you, you know, if you need to work
Speaker 1: a little more on Okay, people, I know if you
Speaker 1: don't like tests, but you know what you love. You
Speaker 1: love those quizzes that tell you fun things about yourself.
Speaker 1: So he head to Scott's website to find out how
Speaker 1: light our dark you are force is and where you
Speaker 1: are in terms of self actualization. I think you're going
Speaker 1: to get a lot of takers. Man from this recording,
Speaker 1: because who does not want to know how self actualized
Speaker 1: they are. I'm so glad we finally got to connect
Speaker 1: Scott your force for humanity, and I'm thrilled to have
Speaker 1: someone like you fighting for the positive changes that so
Speaker 1: many of us know we need in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: consider me a friend and ally, and hopefully we will
Speaker 1: have more people see how important your work is and
Speaker 1: then most importantly, actually make the changes necessary in the
Speaker 1: real world to be able to prepare our kids and
Speaker 1: our people for what's to come. Thank you. That means
Speaker 1: a lot to me. It was so fun talk to
Speaker 1: you today. Thanks for listening to this episode of The
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way
Speaker 1: to something you heard, I encourage you to join in
Speaker 1: on the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast dot com. Thanks for being such a
Speaker 1: great supporter of the show, and tune in next time
Speaker 1: for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.